0:00

this is the the guardian

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today violent

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attack against salman rushdie and

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why the author is in jude decade

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of controversy

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friday, the

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british-indian author salman rushdie the

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was due to speak and event in

0:31

upstate new york he was

0:33

talking about chautauqua institution about

0:35

chautauqua york state to speak about

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the importance of america giving

0:40

a silent athol prices of

0:42

is a cohort of people assume he's

0:44

the most famous rusty

0:47

is one of britain's for most

0:49

booker prize winning authors after

0:52

the publication of the satanic verses in

0:54

nineteen eighty eight the became

0:56

one of it's most notorious after

0:59

decades of living with death threats friday

1:03

he suffered a frenzied say

1:08

you didn't have personal security with him

1:11

and it doesn't seem like there was any sort of

1:13

scanning at devices

1:15

are machines because the attacker go through

1:18

with a nice he was all in black

1:20

and who's wearing who's wearing mask that

1:22

taboo made people think that he was making some sort

1:24

of statement as opposed to him

1:27

posing a risk there must be

1:29

prepared to speak on the panel

1:31

respected it hurt her hobby matter

1:34

allegedly stolen the stage and stabbed

1:36

rusty several times the

1:39

net oh so like

1:42

the novelists the author salmaan rusty

1:44

has been stabbed at an event

1:46

in new york state epic

1:49

that are going nuts people were screaming

1:51

a bunch of people from the first few rows

1:53

of the amp or ran off on stage

1:56

to help to do the man now

1:58

the attack on authors

1:59

salman rushdie at an event in new york has

2:02

again raised questions of

2:04

freedom of speech

2:07

rusty is in critical condition

2:10

the remains in hospital and faces

2:12

life changing injuries

2:15

the attacks is shocked sudden

2:18

read night debates about censorship

2:21

and freedom of expression the

2:23

guardian columnist and as we monica the

2:26

attacks against russia the felt like traveling

2:28

back traveling time to the late eighties

2:31

when eighties when had his books burned and

2:34

oh people in his head why

2:36

the iranian regime the committing destiny

2:41

could not

2:43

microphone

2:44

weird echo

2:46

of a time that seems very very

2:48

far away

2:50

that why was rushed the a target and

2:53

minute

2:54

fungibility and a machine

3:07

mean we post grew up around

3:09

the same time as muslims who were children

3:11

when the satanic verses has published

3:13

then he was the first time i saw listens presented

3:16

in the news and he was in this really polarizing

3:18

would the mission as you are not

3:21

aware that book can you tell us what it was

3:23

about

3:24

what about or the work of magical realism

3:27

am i think people who haven't read the book

3:29

or who aren't aware of the detail

3:31

of it sometimes they're quite surprised

3:33

that it created such a backlash

3:35

when it wasn't even a

3:37

politically

3:38

he was quite humorous the

3:40

two heroes of selma rusty's

3:42

the satanic verses fall through the

3:44

sky from a hijacked airliners and

3:47

acquire respectively and archangels

3:49

halo and a pair of devils homes

3:52

the magical the bizarre of the great test

3:54

mingle with a grimly realistic portrait

3:57

of britain in the eighties traveling a dream

3:59

say cleanser

3:59

the

4:00

and play and to

4:03

add the world of fiercer in in the

4:05

case it's basically a book that

4:07

is about three infecting some plotlines

4:10

protagonists that all that

4:12

all origin homeless and name

4:15

if i'd say in one word

4:17

but this novel essentially about it's about

4:19

the nature of metamorphosis it's about it's

4:21

about change it's about the

4:23

kind of change that come when you move

4:25

from one part of the will to another but that

4:27

such the change of place of the and

4:30

the and that has on the individual

4:32

cell for on the group or on the on the race culture

4:35

it's about the kind of change that comes about been

4:37

a new idea comes into the world like of religion

4:39

or whatever it's just really wasn't minute

4:41

the bike as a satire

4:42

actually quite funny in many places and

4:44

quite a reference by many things that the british saved

4:47

by racism about islam but religion in general

4:50

and that some

4:51

then what sort of fuck are

4:53

you a muslim protagonists

4:55

they get a profit angel gabriel

4:58

and the process why as

5:00

a personal attack on muslims those the name

5:02

of the book and as that

5:05

specific attack on the for on

5:08

well known was some on rusty

5:10

before this point

5:11

we're in the western world them sort

5:13

of less than a mistake in the tree circles he has

5:16

he had become quite established he

5:18

had published midnight children's had critical

5:20

acclaim one the book of for at least eighty

5:22

one and then published

5:24

sabres the sorta novel and

5:26

and in my view his best work a

5:29

few years after that and

5:31

and then the satanic verses and eighty eight

5:33

seconds of on his way to becoming not

5:35

just record not as thin as

5:37

would have revered but also quite

5:40

loaded and literary circles but

5:42

my my reception at the time is that he hadn't

5:44

quite

5:45

working through

5:47

to outside west and

5:49

literary circles am and certainly wasn't

5:51

considered a sources global

5:54

muslim bryce her am

5:56

and so when so when when

5:58

he found the thrive cannabis is important

6:01

a similar of many many people have not heard of him

6:04

the book as we now know caused an uproar

6:06

a cluster well because of his betrayal of a song

6:08

and the prophet mohammad as he told us what

6:11

was that reaction like to the time

6:14

very honest with a slow bad to

6:16

begin with adam and then call

6:18

on in many parts the world initially

6:21

the fastest once was in south asia and

6:23

indian particular overseas country of birth

6:26

was the first the band import of

6:28

the book which was effective been in the book

6:30

on record of

6:33

a particular com a classic opposes

6:35

and time of fear of unrest and

6:37

the note of it's then i have done

6:40

and with several people were killed

6:44

i were other than the faces than in

6:46

other parts the muslim world in north africa

6:48

and the believed middle east they were smaller and a bit

6:50

more astroturf than that there were

6:53

more with the i am by governments in

6:55

the media and and in the uk there were very

6:57

the market seems a book

6:59

banning if somebody swear

7:02

at our sub zero tolerance

7:04

if somebody swear as a lot

7:06

of fat and zero tolerance

7:08

what if somebody swear that our profits

7:11

and of us have a big fan

7:13

since one , as a

7:16

proxy than posters of rusty's himself

7:19

being satellites and and those with the images

7:21

that really kind of flashed across the world

7:23

at the time

7:34

six months after publication iran

7:37

issued a subtler on some launders these life

7:39

which is a call for him to be kills an ayatollah

7:41

khomeini issued a religious to

7:43

three or what was ordering all

7:46

muslims to kill the british indian

7:48

writer salman rushdie and his

7:50

publishers for the books blasphemous

7:52

attacks on islam the prophet

7:55

and the koran

7:56

there was even a reward which eventually amount

7:58

it around three million dollar

7:59

the

8:01

that's when why to tehran take such a

8:03

drastic step i

8:05

first to on

8:06

one is

8:08

a rise

8:09

the next six affairs at the time

8:12

and the second part is part runs

8:14

position

8:16

the within the international community one

8:18

have to bear in mind that when

8:21

the sonic as it came out iran

8:23

was just coming out of the iran

8:26

iraq war that had caved million

8:28

lives and it was

8:30

that of nine ten years into

8:32

his post iran

8:34

the regime

8:36

it was trying to establish

8:38

itself as a regime under

8:41

a lot of suspicion and

8:43

trade embargo it's nationally and

8:45

also trying

8:46

the couldn't but fresh out of

8:48

another five

8:50

among other countries

8:52

in countries in muslim world so it

8:54

those those struggles internally

8:56

with the integrity of the regime

8:59

and also need to project offensive franks

9:02

and leadership ah to

9:04

the world unto the muslim world and so

9:06

there was a degree of cynicism i think

9:08

in hindsight and to the decision

9:11

to adam and office atlantic

9:13

came like you say a few

9:15

months thought of the book came out that wasn't

9:18

this sort of you know very

9:20

spontaneous erection of anger it was kind

9:22

of it's clear calculation is a sudden the iran

9:25

could get something out

9:26

the power of ayatollah khomeini's

9:28

religious and political legacy was demonstrated

9:30

at his funeral last summer faced

9:32

by that and with the demands of iran's

9:34

unbending senior cleric the

9:36

country's new leadership has to show it remains loyal

9:39

to his memory the , of

9:41

the islamic revolution which brought on many to

9:43

power is this weekend it's

9:45

no coincidence that his success as spiritual

9:47

leader chose to day to remind his people

9:49

of the legacy khomeini left mr were

9:52

for underlined size are reportedly

9:56

i thought i hadn't even read the books

9:58

before issuing the sets open even after

10:01

there you have you hadn't read the books and

10:03

caught without who fought a fact occur

10:05

i think many parts and

10:08

the world powers

10:09

i'm in the book was banned in many areas simple

10:11

couldn't me that the don't know surreal city or insisted

10:14

read it and very few people had read it or even

10:16

knew about ah and seven

10:18

a sort of astroturf anger the

10:20

one thousand one they came out of

10:22

some genuine curiosity on

10:25

them and knowledge about the content of the

10:27

book and so what happened next

10:29

no cause there was a messy period

10:31

after the fact flow ah were

10:34

even members of the british government censors

10:36

government as the time did not entirely

10:39

sand virus the there

10:41

was a view that he had ascended

10:44

the religion of muslims across the

10:46

the album that you know if people had

10:48

a someone had defended christians they they would

10:50

have responded the same way

10:51

they were that little bit of irritation

10:54

i think with rush the as lot in amongst

10:56

pass the british establishment is

10:58

so far too much and now

11:00

really martha martha like

11:02

if you go back and next and that info button

11:04

hi i'm and

11:06

he he was seen as someone who had

11:08

sources behaved badly

11:11

and rudely and it was has not on

11:13

but hers we should protect him because

11:15

he's a citizen at the thought of

11:17

the attitude that was also wobble

11:20

on behalf of rusty himself which

11:22

he has said

11:23

but fresh regretful

11:25

why thing to sort of overwhelmed

11:28

by the

11:29

green a response

11:31

and and this the seer that was

11:33

inculcated is not just you

11:36

know him and his circle but his publisher

11:38

has science mates or is one of whom was killed

11:40

the dangers he faces of been graphically

11:43

illustrated by attacks on translators

11:45

of his novel this at a press conference last

11:47

year and by the murder of the japanese

11:49

translator just four months ago

11:51

interest the actually

11:53

the thought and half apology and

11:56

said

11:56

the back and the blasphemy which she

11:58

didn't really mean but

11:59

the forward maybe calm

12:02

nerves and them and class

12:04

must be upset which which didn't happen

12:07

and and then briefly had to go into hiding

12:09

what you said he the went into hiding

12:12

she lives under police protection says several

12:14

years what did is my slut

12:16

like then and in the years since

12:18

the units are under police protection incomplete

12:21

hiding for about a decade and

12:23

, was it is a difficult time a combination

12:26

of of being able

12:28

to withstand the same place for too

12:30

long having to pull the plug on

12:32

plug and

12:34

personal and for accents

12:37

has relationship came under a lot of

12:39

strain at the time has

12:42

marriage broke down he leaned heavily

12:45

on

12:46

friend i think one thing that comes

12:48

out constantly you ever one revisit

12:50

that are see if there is how

12:53

you know the state has had failed him

12:55

sometimes pots the muslim world had failed

12:57

him but to policies

13:00

that guy who always has publisher

13:02

and a very close circle

13:05

of friends military community several

13:07

of whom are also of

13:09

the tiny an indian origin

13:11

the and and who stand by him to

13:13

stay

13:14

kiwi before he was stabbed some

13:16

undersea told an interviewer that his fears of as

13:18

an attack were a thing of the past and

13:20

that his life was now normal

13:23

why do you think he was feeling safe and public

13:26

i want a couple of things one is that

13:28

the iranian regime itself

13:31

as made a statement to the effect that he

13:33

didn't have to worry about the fat phony more

13:35

after a meeting with the british government one

13:38

listen to our reestablished between

13:40

the regime and iran and

13:43

the british government and the thought it

13:45

the former olive branch that was extended

13:48

and and also because he

13:50

had been out and about for so long

13:53

that haven't been any

13:55

security threats or m

13:57

are indications or anything the kind that

13:59

came from halogen and

14:01

found the thought that this that this world

14:04

had moved on from that particular

14:06

moment

14:09

mon rushdie update the

14:12

author of the satanic verses is

14:14

alive and well and living and living

14:16

york city

14:17

no

14:18

bodyguards no more uranium

14:21

and i'm just getting

14:23

, to the ordinary business being a writer

14:25

and i'm very happy to be there in it because

14:28

that's all i ever wanted

14:40

the dream

14:42

friday

14:43

he was giving a talk at the shukla

14:45

institution in new york state's

14:47

when the man suspected of carrying out this

14:49

attack kadima talks with

14:51

accused of mounting the stage and a black mask

14:54

and stabbing him ten times what

14:57

do we know about matter

14:59

we know that he was

15:02

born asta the fact flat

15:04

was issued so not someone who was radicalised

15:06

at the time

15:07

the twenty four year old accused will

15:09

appear in court again next week was born

15:12

in california but recently moved

15:14

to serve your new jersey

15:16

we know that his family comes from a

15:18

village in the south of lebanon

15:20

has close ties with hezbollah

15:23

i'm but nothing beyond that is

15:25

particularly solid

15:27

handcuffed and dressed in a prison jumpsuit

15:30

how they met tar stood silently his

15:32

head bowed his lawyer entered a

15:34

not guilty plea on his behalf

15:36

nasreen understandably the has been

15:38

an outpouring sport for some undersea in the day

15:41

since of stopping by the literary

15:43

world and beyond what

15:45

we've been hearing that ,

15:47

as huge outpouring with portrush didn't

15:49

hear hear someone who is just a mainstay

15:53

of the monetary seen as has been set for

15:55

decades now of areas now of

15:57

of affection towards him and and

15:59

here

15:59

the hear someone who also has lots of really

16:02

good friendships

16:04

and relations and publishing community and the

16:06

world in general but he is also the com

16:09

adam as sources symbol

16:13

of also it says anxieties

16:15

and conflict

16:16

that free speech

16:18

we then the publishing world and

16:20

and within the western world in general so

16:22

his stature even as the

16:24

software diminished in the history of

16:26

the first for receded an

16:29

entire distant memories rusty

16:31

found renewed rather than ah

16:33

i find in his

16:35

status as someone who has

16:37

, because he has just written

16:40

something that he'd that he'd believe it or for

16:42

with some with of interest or of

16:45

value and so he has been adopted

16:47

once again and first

16:49

time a little bit more wholeheartedly sent

16:51

him home home three decades

16:53

ago as someone that really

16:55

needs some unequivocal support

16:58

and because free speech in general as

17:00

speech in as fragile value

17:02

at the moment

17:05

given us a modestly was used as a political football

17:07

by the iranian regime for so many decades

17:11

the are unlikely political ramifications

17:13

now

17:15

the think there is a clear distancing

17:18

as , or a clear absence

17:22

of claiming that there

17:24

was that there of more deliberate

17:26

connection between mateen in the money regime

17:28

on the part of the on government and by

17:30

think

17:31

they could everyone's interests at the moment to

17:33

just view the attacker

17:35

as someone who was acting alone and

17:38

self radicalized ah

17:40

and therefore no one really has to do

17:42

anything about access to the yes

17:45

please on of diplomatic relations as as

17:47

has to be a recording device for this is

17:49

this attack i think has happened right in

17:51

the middle of the war on terror says

17:53

a ten years ago i think

17:55

it might have been a have a far more

17:58

incendiary political

17:59

political event and but

18:02

i think now is going to be treated as

18:04

something that is about in the needed some

18:06

and an individual that has fact that

18:08

is not related to any particular government

18:10

or any particular

18:15

why is salman

18:18

rushdie's legacy

18:28

this you're fully immersed

18:30

in your podcast because in the back of your mind

18:32

you're not trying to recall when the deadline was

18:34

supposed to be or stressing to keep everyone

18:37

updated on next steps meet monday

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dot com

19:01

that's mean this attack happened

19:03

at a time whether a spurious current

19:05

debates around censorship

19:08

and so called council poacher even

19:11

in the guardian this week that rusty is

19:13

unwillingly held up as both an inspiration

19:16

and as and warning to all those who take

19:18

the right of free speech for granted what

19:21

do you make of that framing

19:24

i think it's an unfair framing

19:26

i think it's inevitable framing i

19:28

think people forget that the rest

19:30

the affair triggered impulse

19:32

listen world a big conversation about

19:35

blasphemy and what it entails and

19:37

who can apply it and does

19:39

it even have a place

19:42

in more than muslim jurisprudence

19:44

and and the second

19:47

life that rusty had as the

19:49

sort of let's figure is in our modern

19:51

culture wars about about free seats

19:54

on i think it's it's unfair

19:56

to him as him as is to discredit

19:58

to his work which is x

19:59

the not lamichael a tool

20:02

it's fiction but he has been

20:04

shoehorned into both

20:06

a clash of civilizations concept which

20:09

is silly a clash between east and west

20:11

and now and sort of in for a clash

20:13

of civilizations which has classes within

20:16

western country

20:19

he worked for many years to move

20:21

away from the satlav both as a physical

20:23

flat and a reputation one

20:26

they become almost impossible for him not

20:28

to be defined by it the

20:31

think he'll ever be able to escape

20:33

i don't think you'll ever be able to escape

20:36

it and for i do think

20:38

that

20:39

he has

20:41

managed to maintain at

20:44

something of a triumph which is his

20:46

sense of humor and and his

20:48

sense of self and little that one thing

20:50

that is constantly frightened about rusty

20:52

is that what is on social media whether

20:54

it's and in cities whether it's in the the

20:57

right things that he still does

21:00

or even his sort of forays

21:02

into popular culture and cameos

21:04

in movies or comedy shows

21:11

the

21:20

obviously accept the over smith's

21:22

services which are very

21:25

good

21:25

he hadn't really

21:27

maintain that

21:28

and creepy than his humanity and

21:31

i'm has not become post faced an honest

21:34

about it which i think as a huge triumph

21:37

now , near assassination attempt

21:39

a near death experience after

21:41

living under the solder that has three decades of

21:43

it's very hard to crawl

21:46

out from under

21:49

always struck me as weed and

21:51

conflicting about some honesty is

21:53

us he was among the first

21:55

south asian writers i'd read that was revered

21:58

by the westin literally establishment

22:01

and , was writing about about it to

22:03

culture language the i

22:05

knew and that felt like they were mine

22:08

and hadn't been represented to me else

22:10

and else and yet he was always

22:12

presented of the supposed enemy

22:15

the bogeyman and not necessarily

22:17

by muslims i personally new but

22:20

definitely through the news and i suppose

22:23

through absorbing the discourse what

22:26

will your experience of reading much

22:28

the

22:29

it really thought of i remember

22:31

i have exact same express my i was i

22:33

grew up in the muslim it and

22:36

i'm in a muslim countries are all of this i experienced

22:38

in sudan and and then in other

22:40

parts of the muslim world in egypt

22:43

and saudi arabia for wind higher sort

22:45

, formative experience of or see was

22:48

of this sub sonic sega and

22:51

how he was portrayed in the in the in

22:53

the mainstream press is no these countries and condensate

22:55

panic say that because the satanic verses a some sometimes

22:58

they would eat on a photo shop little

23:00

satan homes on his head and

23:02

and so his books were not only

23:05

impossible to get hold all because

23:07

of the stigma of but also huge

23:09

assault light played it is for someone who

23:11

has nothing to say to you and

23:14

that is not insulting a derogatory if i only picked

23:16

up and my first summer

23:18

see book which with same

23:20

which i will fight anyone

23:23

, claims on his best work adam

23:25

ap when i became an adult my mood the uk

23:28

uk that i began reading everything else and

23:31

it was it so thats funny

23:33

that this was the right said i had missed out

23:35

on so law on for so for because

23:38

of all these completely fake

23:41

and on interrogated or

23:44

the hatred for i internalized and

23:47

and i think that

23:49

the just

23:51

the thing about rusty that i think everyone needs

23:53

to come back to at the end up

23:55

with the reason for his they'd revered by the

23:57

trees obvious mint and am

24:00

i said being read by so many people

24:02

i think from backgrounds at

24:04

that you when i have no shame that actually became

24:07

evangelical rusty supporters i see

24:09

this a lot hence people

24:11

who connie came to rest be made and

24:14

then saw so much themselves

24:16

and so much kind of explanation

24:19

and decipher aim of

24:21

the background for their parents didn't quite

24:23

have the language all the tools to explain

24:25

the man added for their it's

24:27

about islam or petition or

24:29

my

24:30

the sun or alienation

24:32

and that kind of the fourth of really

24:35

and

24:35

that affectionate bond i think some

24:37

of these breeders of muslim background felt

24:40

a , rusty and the reason

24:42

for all of this is that he is an exception

24:45

for reiser he just simply is

24:48

an exceptional right sir he did not have

24:50

a time when people don't didn't

24:52

have an interest were were

24:56

were not that it was not that much empowerment

24:58

of them don't have a point there were not that president

25:00

and the popular culture popular and

25:03

so in other the reason here

25:05

he is revered and the reason this

25:07

year this think

25:10

evergreen as said even

25:13

regeneration for discover risky still

25:15

find

25:16

my recoil in his book that has filled

25:19

not going down were

25:21

in the same

25:23

michael way fit

25:25

the appeal to you did which is

25:26

the humor were confident

25:30

with some higher and with like

25:32

intimate knowledge of what people are talking about

25:34

talking think maybe once since the silver

25:37

linings this attack this that he's introduced

25:39

again to on it and ration the doesn't just

25:42

that them out of curiosity begins

25:44

to read his books am and

25:46

gets the benefit that benefit that did

25:48

all those years ago

25:49

that's mean

25:51

thank you

25:58

that will never be managed

25:59

you can read a piece admire

26:02

rushdie as a writer and a champion but

26:04

don't forget he has amount of flesh and blood and

26:07

keep up with developments on this story

26:09

of the guardian dot com and

26:12

that's it for today this

26:14

episode is produced by lucy half and

26:16

hurried com

26:18

production support is by chelsea coats

26:20

and yes mean louis

26:22

round designed with my video is a godlike

26:25

executive producers or elizabeth cassin

26:28

michael jackson

26:29

and just sweaty

26:31

we'll see tomorrow

26:40

this is the guardian

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