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Today with Clareburn on RTE Radio

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1, sponsored by Cash & Carrie

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Now first, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

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Netanyahu has vowed that Israel will stand

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alone and, he said, if we must,

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we shall fight with our fingernails. His

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comments yesterday follow a warning from US

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President Joe Biden, who said the US

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will stop supplying bombs and artillery shells

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if Israel launches a major ground operation

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in Rafa. Now in a moment, I'll

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speak to Sareid Mikhayili, spokesperson for Bet

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Salim, an Israeli human rights organisation, but

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first I'm joined on the line by

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Alistair Bunkle, Sky News Middle East correspondent.

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Good morning to you Alistair. Good

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morning. Fight with our fingernails,

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but we have much more than fingernails,

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says Benjamin Netanyahu. That's a bit of

0:48

an understatement. Yeah,

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and this in response to an interview

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given by Joe Biden about 24 hours

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before that statement last night by

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the Israeli Prime Minister. And in that

1:00

interview on CNN,

1:03

Biden confirming what

1:06

I think we long suspected, but didn't

1:08

know whether or not the Americans would

1:11

actually go quite as far as this. And

1:13

that is that they would withhold weapons from

1:16

the Israelis, offensive weapons, not defensive weapons,

1:18

but offensive weapons from the Israelis if

1:20

they launched a major invasion of Rafa,

1:22

which they haven't quite yet done, but

1:25

are insistently will do. Now

1:28

there have been some attacks on Rafa

1:30

already. There have been casualties overnight, but

1:32

presumably Israel has sufficient stockpiles to

1:35

manage without the next consignment of

1:37

US arms. Yes,

1:40

absolutely. I think if the Israelis want to

1:42

launch a full scale invasion of Rafa, they

1:44

can do so with what they've got already.

1:46

I don't think that is really in doubt,

1:48

but I think there will be two consequences of

1:51

it, assuming that Biden followed

1:53

through on his threat. One

1:55

is, of course, Netanyahu would be

1:57

just openly defying the US president and.

2:00

You assume it would take what is

2:03

already a pretty fractious relationship into a

2:06

very, very difficult place indeed. And

2:08

the Americans might decide that they

2:10

want to impose

2:12

more punishments, as they would see it, on

2:14

the Israelis. And secondly, although

2:17

I don't think, you

2:19

know, it's going to hamper an invasion of

2:21

Rafa, what it could do is it could

2:23

have wider consequences

2:25

for the Israeli military elsewhere.

2:28

For example, if they were

2:31

looking to have a limited

2:33

invasion of southern Lebanon to push Hezbollah

2:35

back, for example, that is where you

2:37

might see an impact. All

2:39

right. Israel and Hamas delegations left the

2:41

ceasefire negotiations in Cairo yesterday. It was

2:44

the best hope for averting an assault

2:46

on Rafa would be some kind of

2:48

a comprehensive ceasefire that would lead to

2:50

the release of hostages. It's

2:53

not looking good from the talks. Is there any room

2:55

for hope there? What do we know about the status of

2:58

them? Right

3:00

now, it is not looking good at all.

3:02

Bill Burns, the CIA director who has been

3:04

in the region for so much of the

3:06

last few months and was in Cairo and

3:08

sort of been sort of, you know, jutting

3:10

between Cairo, Doha and Tel

3:12

Aviv over the last few days. He's now gone

3:15

back to Washington. I think that's a pretty good

3:17

sign of where the talks are at the moment.

3:22

Different sides will point the finger at

3:24

others as to who is to

3:26

blame. Certainly after

3:29

what President Biden had to say on

3:32

Wednesday night, it did

3:34

seem to smell the

3:36

end of this round of talks, to be quite honest. That

3:39

is not to necessarily blame the US president. But

3:42

many people think that Joe Biden was just

3:44

looking for an excuse to get

3:46

out of those talks anyway. And maybe Biden gave

3:48

him that excuse. The fact is,

3:51

there is still too big a gap between

3:53

the two sides. Now, we

3:55

have seen talks collapse before and

3:57

then resume. reasonably

4:00

shortly afterwards. So that might

4:02

happen again. Maybe though we're

4:04

into a position where Israelis think they

4:07

have no other choice but to go into Rafa because

4:09

they are still of the mindset that the best way

4:11

to get a deal that

4:13

is satisfactory to them is to put military

4:16

pressure on Hamas. And what are you hearing

4:18

about the situation on the ground in Rafa

4:20

where thousands of Palestinians have been fleeing from

4:23

over the last number of days, but there's still

4:25

obviously hundreds of thousands of people there? Yeah,

4:29

very difficult indeed. So the fighting's ongoing, particularly

4:31

on the eastern edges of Rafa and in

4:33

and around the Rafa crossing, which isn't actually

4:35

in Rafa city itself. But

4:37

there is fighting ongoing around there and

4:40

getting pretty fierce, right, from what I'm

4:42

hearing. A lot of people

4:44

have left, tens of thousands of people have left Rafa

4:47

in anticipation of the wider,

4:50

deeper Israeli push into the

4:52

city. So they're going

4:54

to, along with Al-Mawasi, which is a

4:56

strip of land on the coast, on the

4:59

western coast, utterly

5:01

unsuitable really for any kind of

5:03

long term habitation. It's very sandy,

5:05

desolate part of Gaza, but it's

5:07

now become something of a refugee

5:09

camp. And I

5:12

would say there's probably in the region

5:16

1.2, 1.3 million people still in Rafa. So the

5:19

concerns about a land

5:21

invasion turning into a humanitarian crisis, I

5:23

think there's concerns still remain. And

5:25

the flow of aid to people who are living

5:28

in Rafa at the moment, it was one of

5:30

the areas where at least there was a trickle

5:32

of aid coming in through the southern Rafa crossing.

5:35

Israel took control of that a number

5:37

of days ago and Karim Shalom was

5:39

also not allowing aid through recently

5:42

as well. So what is the

5:44

situation with the flow of humanitarian

5:46

aid into Gaza? Okay,

5:49

so I think you sort of got four points

5:52

that I would go to. So

5:54

Karim Shalom is the main crossing

5:56

point between Israel and Gaza, it's

5:58

right down in the south. It

6:00

has been closed over recent days because

6:02

rocket fire has been directed at it.

6:05

I think more rocket fire went at it today. I

6:08

think it is, from what I gather within the last

6:10

hour or two, it is still open. But

6:13

obviously it's pretty risky for aid agencies to go and

6:15

get the aid from there because of the fighting in

6:17

and around it. Then

6:19

you've got the Rafa crossing, which goes from Gaza

6:21

into Egypt. That has also been a major aid

6:24

crossing point, particularly for fuel, all the fuel

6:26

going to Gaza goes through there. That

6:29

is closed because of the Israeli military operations.

6:31

That is probably the greatest concern, the fact

6:33

that fuel is not getting into Gaza because

6:36

Rafa is closed. Further north,

6:38

you've got the Erez crossing, which is recently opened.

6:40

It used to be the foot crossing for journalists

6:42

like myself to go into Gaza. That

6:44

goes directly into the north. That is open

6:47

still, but only a limited amount of aid going in

6:49

there every day. Then fourthly, this

6:51

US military pier that's been built. I had

6:53

hoped that would be up and running last

6:55

week, but from what I

6:57

heard about three hours ago, it's still

7:00

not yet completed. There

7:03

is a ship that's left Cyprus, but it's

7:05

been halted halfway, waiting for that pier to

7:10

be finished, which has not happened yet. With

7:15

regard to, again, if an offensive

7:17

does go ahead, what hospitals

7:19

are functional on any level in Rafa to

7:21

cope with the size of the population there

7:24

and the potential casualties that might result from

7:26

an attack? Well,

7:29

this is the established bricks and mortar

7:31

hospitals, if you like, very,

7:33

very few. The ones that are

7:36

still functioning are functioning on much

7:38

reduced capacity and capability. That's

7:42

going to be reduced even further unless fuel

7:44

can start getting into Gaza because they rely

7:46

so heavily on fuel to run electricity

7:49

generators and their medical equipment, et

7:51

cetera. What you've got,

7:53

though, around the Rafa area and Al-Mawasiz

7:55

and a number of field hospitals that

7:57

have been established In recent months. Pretty

8:00

support line around the mullahs area.

8:02

Ah the number Aussie wanna things

8:04

to do. You mean while as

8:06

well they are there some temporary

8:08

structures be pretty impressive. His. Boss.

8:12

Suddenly. You're. Not

8:14

able to deal with merced casualties and

8:16

if that's what it, if that's what

8:18

it comes to or but they are

8:21

there. Are But as I say

8:23

if you did have. A D heavy

8:25

fighting A We trusts You Levels similar

8:27

to what we saw red card and

8:29

Gaza City was that those schools hospitals

8:31

are just not going to be. Not

8:34

big enough or capable enough relief or

8:36

to do with it. Okay, alright Alastair

8:38

Bunker Sky News Release Correspondent thanks for

8:41

joining us on animals. Who joined now

8:43

by sorry Mcneely it's spokesperson for Bethel

8:45

Him which is it? Israeli Human Rights

8:47

Organization? Good morning to you. So it's.

8:50

Good My column that your organization has

8:53

been calling for a ceasefire for a

8:55

long time. One for the response been.

8:59

Swell. Certainly the Israeli government has

9:01

not said I am indicating that it

9:03

has any intention can afford a with

9:05

ending the for on the contrary we

9:07

keep hearing again and again only this

9:09

morning at the prime minister promising you

9:12

know I view as he just have

9:14

reported her career. Is over to

9:16

continue indefinitely. With this war

9:18

com next week Israeli settlers

9:20

at totally Like broadly supported

9:23

by. The government

9:25

and by government ministers are

9:27

a planning i'm ah a

9:29

parade marched a demanding a

9:31

read the resettlement. Of Gaza.

9:33

So unless there is serious and cannot

9:35

flax, this is where we are heading

9:37

on. For a human rights organization like

9:40

yourself that has made a consistent call

9:42

for peace on is making a call

9:44

for a ceasefire at the moment. How

9:46

much support do you have? because politically

9:49

I suppose traditionally parties he would have

9:51

been sympathetic to your viewpoint of haven't

9:53

enjoyed good fortune in the polls in

9:55

elections in Israel recently. Well.

9:59

Since. I mean absolutely

10:01

very. It's It's hard for me to

10:03

comment on public opinion. Can say that

10:06

been various public opinion surveys on their

10:08

it which gave conflicting results, but I

10:10

still think it's very clear. That since

10:12

the horror of the. Atrocities

10:15

perpetrated by cinema on October

10:17

Seventh. In many Israelis a

10:19

wanted revenge and many Israelis

10:21

support this. Never ending is

10:23

where the operation name in

10:25

Gaza. This has led to.

10:28

The Killing. Of almost forty thousand

10:30

Palestinians content to this is you want

10:32

to tell? It's tough to see that

10:34

you are just heard again on. However,

10:37

I do think there was a

10:40

growing understanding among Israelis that the

10:42

necessary a deal that we have

10:44

to reach in order to bring

10:47

back the Israeli hostages. One. Hundred and

10:49

thirty two hostages who have been. In

10:51

Gaza two hundred and seventeen days

10:53

now on. that has to include

10:56

a ceasefire. There's no way you

10:58

can you know as post things

11:00

on this plane the military pressure

11:02

was somehow bring back the hostages'

11:05

Is simply alive. The latest data

11:07

isn't to say that for the

11:09

former Israeli Chief of Staff would

11:11

knowledge that this is not is

11:13

not a possibility and I do

11:15

think there is a growing call

11:17

among many Israelis understand to a

11:19

move towards a cease fire including

11:21

a hostage a deal you know

11:23

both are just part and parcel

11:26

of the same. Thing with the

11:28

problem is. Though that the

11:30

internal pressure. On

11:32

Prime Minister Netanyahu and I can

11:34

say this you know as an

11:36

Israeli very chilly observing with situation

11:39

in my societies internal pressure politically

11:41

and eight it's in l his

11:43

own political in Mississippi to escape

11:45

a his trial is a leading

11:48

us in this route a for

11:50

you know to an external conflict

11:52

because this is serving the political

11:54

interests Both of these ratings fall

11:57

right and also the Prime minister's

11:59

the old. The way to circumvent

12:01

this is through international engagement, International

12:03

pressure the international community using its

12:06

own leverage because we internally inside

12:08

Israel and not able to promote

12:11

this change on for the your

12:13

view would be affected Internal pressure

12:15

A Here in Oregon the government

12:18

is advancing a spoils efforts within

12:20

the European Union to recognize a

12:22

state of Palestine. These calls for

12:25

am or as you all the

12:27

association agreement with Israel and the

12:29

onto. The Human Rights clause there is not

12:32

the kind of auction you're talking about us.

12:36

Build. A tenant doesn't have. The

12:38

ability and I also think it's

12:40

it's like faster recommend specific a

12:42

foreign policy action is to international

12:44

government The what we Do family

12:46

said again and again. I think

12:49

it's becoming very clear now that

12:51

statements as alone I'm not going

12:53

to and make a sixteenth change

12:55

out that we need action, That

12:58

we need this to be a

13:00

clear and directed at Israeli policy

13:02

makers and that the people of

13:04

setting policy them and especially Prime

13:06

Minister Netanyahu, Understand that the.

13:09

Category. Of view of

13:11

the castle community. Is this a

13:14

a mass killing Now the tweets

13:16

a ceiling in Rafah A is

13:19

is up. Proceeds with it's operation

13:21

is. Simply unacceptable that there is

13:23

not. You know that one of

13:25

these a international. Cause we've had

13:27

again and again for his will

13:30

to adhere to the laws

13:32

of armed Conflict to protect civilians

13:34

in Gaza. Those are just how

13:37

to set a cool cause. they're

13:39

totally unrelated to any sort

13:41

of reality. The reality is it

13:43

repeatedly true when it's has no

13:46

intention to avoid harming civilians in

13:48

Gaza and if we see

13:50

another operation now in roughly going.

13:53

To see more of the same and these are going

13:55

to the this is going to be catastrophic. Or

13:57

oh sorry, Missy's a spokesperson for.

14:00

Salim, the Israeli Human Rights Organization. Thanks

14:02

very much for joining us! Before that

14:04

we heard Alister Bunk on Sky News Middle

14:06

East correspondent coming up going live to

14:08

Model and Mccrone. Five

14:11

One Five Five One today

14:14

with several email.