0:04

Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome

0:13

into Tom Curran's Patriots Talk podcast.

0:15

It is the aftermath of

0:18

Dynasty episodes numbers three and

0:20

four. You're going to hear

0:22

Michael Hawley, Phil Perry and

0:24

myself talking about these episodes, detailing

0:26

the Patriots rise from,

0:29

as I called it at the time, Cinderella

0:31

to Supermodel. And then episode

0:34

number four will focus on

0:37

Spygate and all the fascinating

0:39

elements that went into that,

0:41

including the unforgettable

0:44

07 season director, Matt Hamachak

0:46

will join us in

0:48

the latter portion of this episode. Enjoy.

0:54

Episode three and four of the Dynasty are

0:56

now available on Apple TV. Plus they chronicled

0:58

the journey of the Patriots from lovable underdogs

1:01

to hated villains. With

1:05

much of episode four focused on

1:08

Spygate, we've got anything

1:11

left open was media fodder and

1:15

it was going to be a story. And

1:18

so the NFL flew security

1:20

personnel in again and

1:23

it was decided that we

1:25

would destroy the tapes on

1:27

premises. I

1:31

remember thinking to myself, all

1:35

the news cycles, all the

1:38

commentary, this is done.

1:41

It's over. We've been fined. This

1:43

is over. That is not at all

1:45

what happened. So

1:50

why did you destroy the tapes? Because

1:52

we had an admission of guilt. There was no purpose

1:54

for the tape. The tapes are competitive. I didn't want

1:57

them to have access to that and I don't want

1:59

the other 30. two teams said, how about

2:01

anyone get access to it if you had a

2:03

deer to go? The same way, unfortunately, it got out to

2:05

the media a week after we

2:07

discovered it. So, unfortunately, there are ways in

2:09

which tapes get out. From my standpoint, there

2:11

was no purpose for it, and that's why

2:13

it destroyed all of his notes and all

2:15

of his tapes. Okay? Thank

2:17

you. Those videotapes

2:20

just obliterated to smithereens, we find out

2:22

by Robin Glaser, thanks to that little

2:26

cameo from Robin Glaser there, Tom Curran,

2:28

Michael Hawley. Spygate is the focus

2:30

for us, even though it's episodes three and

2:32

four that we'll be going over tonight, and

2:34

this was episode four. But let's get right

2:36

into it, Tom. Spygate now, almost

2:38

20 years later,

2:40

how did you feel that was

2:43

portrayed in the dynasty? And

2:46

how much legacy in New England do you think

2:48

has been impacted by that now that we have

2:50

so much time removed and based on what you

2:52

thought at the time? Here's what's interesting. We have

2:55

number three, which includes the

2:57

win over the Rams, which

2:59

includes the post-Snow Bowl,

3:02

everything that happened going on, and then two

3:04

Super Bowls, and then into Spygate. So the

3:06

two things are nicely married because the Patriots

3:08

went from, as I called it at the

3:11

time, before Spygate happened, they had gone from

3:13

Cinderella to Supermodel, and all that entails in

3:15

being a Supermodel and the amount of hate.

3:17

So much happened in 03, 04, 05,

3:22

06 that primed the Patriots to be

3:24

as loathed as they were. I thought

3:26

Spygate was well-treated because the coolest thing

3:28

about Spygate and that

3:30

season, Michael, was the absolute

3:32

omnipotence, the wagon, the unstoppable

3:34

force that were the New

3:36

England Patriots. So as a

3:39

New Englander and a sports fan and somebody who covered

3:41

that team, I was as

3:44

enthused as I was during the

3:46

10s episodes in reliving and saying,

3:48

wow, those M-Effers were so frigging

3:51

good. I loved it. I

3:53

loved it. And you know, I'm supposed to

3:56

be biased, but I lost my objectivity at

3:58

times during 07 where I'm like, Two

4:01

up to everybody. Look at this team.

4:04

Yeah. What was the quote from

4:06

Rodney Harrison? F-em-all. F-em-all.

4:09

F-em-all. And a lot of

4:12

the players took on, they took on Bill's

4:14

burden. They took on Bill's grievance with Roger

4:16

Goodell and the NFL, and that kind of

4:18

fueled them the entire way. I thought they

4:20

treated it well in this episode, Spygate,

4:23

especially because it was like they had

4:25

the two trains running there. There was

4:27

the state cop, the

4:30

state cop who was the mayor of the

4:32

Meadowlands. So when they opened him, I'm like,

4:34

what is this? What are they doing here?

4:37

And there's a guy, he used to work

4:39

undercover, and he couldn't do it because of

4:41

the betrayal. Then he goes to the

4:43

Meadowlands. And I never had any

4:46

problems in my years there except for

4:48

the Spygate, he called it. So you

4:50

had that, so it was overrun. Because

4:52

you have a guy who used to be

4:54

undercover kind of litigating or

4:57

kind of setting the tone for this. And

4:59

I think that set the tone for the commentary that

5:01

came after. I mean, sure, they cheated. But

5:04

we talked about Spygate at the time.

5:07

It was the undermining of the republic. Society

5:11

is no longer the same because the

5:13

Patriots recorded opponents. And then,

5:15

as Tom said, just the dominance

5:17

of Randy Moss coming in and

5:19

that offense being transformed. I

5:22

am interested in legacies here. What did

5:24

you think Spygate would do

5:26

to Bill Belichick's legacy at the time? And

5:29

what do you think it's done to his legacy now as

5:31

we sit here so many years later? At

5:33

the time, I thought it was going to be difficult

5:35

for him to overcome, especially if they didn't win it.

5:38

So in 2007, in real time, I said, OK, he'll be fine.

5:43

They're the best team in football. They'll win.

5:46

The tapes are destroyed. And everybody will know they

5:48

just won it. But they lose

5:50

to the Giants. And then in 2008, Brady gets

5:52

hurt. In 2009, they lose to

5:54

the Ravens. And then there's this little, oh, they didn't win

5:56

in 2010. They didn't win in 2011. Maybe

5:59

That's going to be a good time. It be that thing

6:01

he never bill Belichick coal and never

6:03

one after spygate about that would happen.

6:05

But the legacy tom I think is

6:07

just how wrong it is for people.

6:10

Even. To this day and how Eric

6:12

Mangini never got back into the family

6:14

and how Bill started to push people

6:17

away after Spygate because he didn't know

6:19

who to trust and how Steelers fans

6:21

and Steelers former still was player still

6:23

believe. That. They were robbed of

6:25

Super Bowls because the Spygate I mean,

6:27

is, is there still ripples from this?

6:29

Seventeen years later? to me, Again

6:32

it goes there's a there's a through

6:34

line To all other said when the

6:36

Patriots won and or one or three

6:39

or four they were celebrated but they

6:41

also celebrated themselves some players that Tedy

6:43

Bruschi I think is significant and be

6:45

one of the loan guys Rodney Harrison

6:48

to a lesser degree but Teddy especially

6:50

in celebrating with so called Patriots Way

6:52

which is something the Bill Belichick and

6:54

Tom Brady don't a spouse Robert Kraft

6:56

does. There is a Patriots Way which

6:59

is an arrogant from the outside. Perspective.

7:02

To use for yourself A basically said we're

7:04

smarter than you were going to beat You

7:06

meant the we were going to be no

7:09

more resilient. We're going to be tougher, will

7:11

use rules to our advantage. We have team

7:13

over individual. You people are all selfish so

7:16

we use that as media. We use that

7:18

as a fan base to to look at

7:20

the courts and we can still use very

7:22

easily and look at those teams and say

7:25

you guys want like the patriots who are

7:27

so self was But what does it mean

7:29

to the Legacy Michael's point in the. Episode.

7:32

Still I think was excellent When he

7:34

said bill started teaching Scorpio we gave.

7:37

Voice to that as well. People.

7:39

Change because of success. They one of

7:41

the narcotic and would would do anything

7:43

to make that happen. Sure that they

7:45

were taping and Cleveland they were taping

7:47

in New York They were taping all

7:49

the way through. The. So I

7:51

don't think that the Spygate stuff

7:54

is an outgrowth of. The

7:56

Patriots found a new way to cheat.

7:58

I think it's the tolerance. the Patriots

8:00

was gone by the time those

8:02

seven came. And everyone's like, yeah, we got

8:04

them now! How did the relationships change? Because

8:06

they get to Mangini, right? Mangini, part of

8:08

it is obvious. But it feels

8:10

as though Spygate changed Belichick's relationships with others

8:12

in the building. Maybe even Scott Peole, it

8:14

feels like Peole at one point sort of

8:16

references that, but doesn't get into it. You

8:18

guys were there. Yeah, those of us who

8:20

were close to Bill, he started to push

8:22

us away. That was his quote, his reference.

8:24

And how did that manifest itself? All right,

8:27

well, I think we've seen it. Let me

8:29

just fast forward to 2023, 2023 season. What

8:34

did we see with Bill? What was the problem with Bill? At

8:36

the end, with the Patriots. He had

8:38

his sons on staff. He had

8:40

friends of friends on staff. Why

8:42

are you coaching wide receivers? Hey,

8:44

you happen to be my buddy.

8:47

My buddy's recommendation from Johns Hopkins,

8:50

the circle got even closer. And

8:52

even if you had a little bit of

8:55

pushback, which Scott Peole did at times. Not

8:58

like Mangini, Mangini before Spygate would be one of

9:00

those guys who say, Bill, you're wrong. A

9:03

lot of coaches weren't like that. And

9:05

he accepted that. But I think he

9:07

became less accepting of people who

9:09

weren't on board with

9:11

what his vision was. And you

9:14

see the product with the New England Patriots

9:16

right now. This is part of it. It

9:18

really is connected. He used to

9:20

be more solicitous and more

9:22

collaborative. And I think after Spygate,

9:24

he just became less trusting. I also

9:27

think there's a little bit of a ripple effect, Tom. When you look

9:29

at a big picture, knowing what we know now, Spygate

9:32

and how Roger Goodell handled that and how the

9:34

rest of the league didn't love how Roger Goodell

9:36

handled that. And maybe it looked

9:38

as though the league treated the Patriots

9:40

with kid gloves there. Years

9:42

later, the flake gate happens. And

9:45

the league is pissed at the Patriots. And they're

9:47

not going to get away with this this time,

9:49

Roger. You're going to lay the hammer down on

9:51

him this time, Roger. And

9:53

Bill Belichick with Spygate in his background, he has

9:55

to put all of the flake

9:57

gate on Tom Brady. That relationship starts to

9:59

freshenal. It's a massive domino

10:01

in how the rest of the decade plays

10:03

out for the Patriots when it comes to

10:06

these big picture relationships. I didn't even mention

10:08

Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick and how

10:10

their relationship was impacted. Yeah,

10:13

and had Roger Goodell extracted the pound of

10:15

flesh from the Patriots, there was more significant

10:17

in a suspension. And you'll hear Robert Kraft

10:19

talk about, I did not want Bill suspended.

10:21

And that was, I think, huge.

10:24

A suspension of a head coach

10:26

for a violation like that would have been a very

10:30

difficult black mark to a race. I think

10:32

that going undefeated that year largely

10:34

said, tape, don't tape,

10:36

we're going to beat your ass anyway. But

10:38

I think that a suspension would have announced it

10:41

was that bad. So they did protect them from

10:43

that. But not taking that pound of flesh then

10:45

meant you had to take, and you had to

10:47

take five pounds of flesh later in

10:50

a cutting off your nose to spite

10:52

your face violation with the footballs. You

10:54

had to spend, what, $25 million. You

10:57

dominated the off season. You suspended

10:59

the greatest player in football history.

11:02

I mean, it did great things for the

11:04

attention devoted to the sport, but for the other

11:06

31 teams, they're like, here we go again with

11:08

these idiots up there in New England. We spend all our time

11:11

on them. You mentioned just how dominant the football team was in

11:13

2007. We're going to talk about

11:15

that right now. I want to get to a quote from

11:17

Rodney Harrison, which was phenomenal. Mike already referenced it here tonight.

11:19

He said, our goal was to blow

11:21

everybody out of the water. F

11:23

them all. That's our mentality.

11:26

That's our little thing. F

11:29

them all. I

11:33

found the aftermath and the reaction

11:35

to, of course, how dominant they were. It's

11:38

fun to watch. Some of

11:40

the aftermath of the Super Bowl

11:42

itself and just how hard that

11:44

loss was on players, coaches. Jonathan

11:46

Kraft talking about how players were

11:48

crying and throwing up in

11:50

the locker room seemingly because they

11:52

were that upset. What

11:54

was it like being around the team in

11:56

the aftermath of that loss? It

12:00

was jarring, it was mourning, it was, you

12:02

know, as a writer and as a sports

12:04

fan, because everyone, you know, goes away. You

12:06

don't see those guys after the game necessarily.

12:08

You see them in the... As

12:11

if everyone had just seen

12:13

somebody die close to them.

12:16

I mean, I remember actually during that week, I

12:18

went to dinner with Belichick and Kishan Johnson

12:20

and a couple of Bill's friends from Nantucket

12:23

that he had grown up with. And, you know, we

12:25

all went out to dinner. And that

12:27

wasn't happening all the time, Beers and Jarian.

12:31

And he was very relaxed during the week. He

12:33

was very relaxed. He looks at me

12:35

and at one point said, so what do you think the

12:37

big story is this week? Like, you

12:40

know, people wonder whether you're going to

12:42

go undefeated, Bill? Right.

12:46

So it was really interesting to watch that

12:48

unfold. And for Bill to say after the

12:50

game, we let you guys down. We

12:53

did all see it coming to a

12:55

degree, the narrow breadth

12:58

of their wins. They were down by 10

13:00

against the Giants. They barely got past the

13:02

Baltimore Ravens. They barely got past AJ Feely

13:04

and the Eagles. They were

13:07

not dominant in the AFC Championship. There

13:09

was so much, but you never expected the

13:12

Giants were exactly in the Super Bowl like

13:14

the O1 Patriots were against

13:17

the Rams. They beat the hell out of

13:19

the Patriots. Even though it was

13:21

a shock to see a team that

13:24

was undefeated, that was 18 and 0 lose the

13:26

game, Tom's right. By the time we

13:28

got to the Super Bowl, the Giants

13:30

and Patriots were even. They

13:32

were even. The

13:34

Patriots not only didn't play well in the

13:37

AFC Championship game, Tom Brady threw three interceptions

13:39

in a conference championship game that they won.

13:42

So and he got hurt in

13:45

that game. And the Giants were

13:47

a wildcard last team in and just

13:49

went on the road and were beating

13:51

people. Remember the shot of Tom

13:53

Coughlin in Green Bay with his face, you know,

13:55

just blister. Hey, Tom, put a ski mask on

13:58

or something. Isn't that a man's a basle. Let's

14:01

just kind of load you up there or something.

14:04

But it was so stunning, but everybody wanted

14:06

to see it. I'll never forget the last

14:08

thing I'll say, I'll never forget leaving that

14:10

stadium in Phoenix. And I could hear

14:12

the chant. Eighteen and one.

14:15

Like most, we're not just Giants fans, football

14:17

fans hated the Patriots and really wanted to

14:20

see them win and they were reveling in

14:22

that loss. We're going to get much more

14:24

into these episodes three and four. We've got

14:26

a special guest coming up, fellas. Director

14:29

of the dynasty, Matt Hamachek, will be us

14:31

to discuss both episodes. We asked what it

14:34

was like asking Bill Belichick about Spy Gaiden.

14:37

Where was Tom Rady? On the matter. It's

14:39

all coming up after the course. Here's

14:49

one of the most memorable things from episode four,

14:51

the trade for Randy Moss. Bill

14:54

and I, we talked about we got to

14:56

find some new offensive blood. A

14:59

receiver who's an alpha player.

15:04

Like a guy who's going to hang 50 on you. I'm

15:09

going inside a club and

15:11

my phone rings. Hello.

15:16

Hey, Randy's coach

15:18

Belichick. And I said,

15:20

Bill Belichick of the Patriots. He goes, what? Hung

15:23

up a phone. I go, maybe he doesn't want

15:25

to come to New England. So then I

15:27

called him again. Hello. Randy,

15:30

this is coach Belichick. And I'm sitting there like, man,

15:32

who the hell keeps playing on my phone? And

15:35

he's like, all right, who is this? Like, this is a

15:37

prank. And so I know

15:40

this is this is Bill Belichick. And

15:42

we've traded for you. He

15:45

cut straight to the chase. He said, look, man,

15:47

you're not up here by 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

15:51

No trade. I'm like, oh,

15:54

I just hung up on Bill. I

15:57

made a couple of my boys were sitting at the table. I

16:01

ordered a twelve pack. a grown man,

16:03

I want macaroni. Serious.

16:08

Of episodes varied for the Dynasty are

16:10

now available in Apple Tv Plus or

16:12

that right there for Randy Moss. Among

16:14

be fantastic fantastic interviews that the Dynasty

16:16

crew are bringing to you and leading

16:19

the charge is Director Matt. Have a

16:21

check who's got enough to join us

16:23

now. Math thanks so much for be

16:25

with a suit. He was the star

16:27

of the Dionisio least through the first

16:29

four episodes here because I think there

16:31

are a couple different candidates really Boss

16:34

included. I. Think

16:36

it is Randy. I mean. Well.

16:38

You know, maybe time on the first

16:41

couple. Tedy Bruschi is

16:43

one of the greatest storytellers I've ever

16:45

encountered. By. Bob when I

16:47

remember we we went down to

16:49

North Carolina in an interview Randy.

16:53

And he shows up the pieces on

16:55

the chair and I guy I can.

16:57

We were the first question I ask

16:59

and was by but man just is

17:01

electric attending for you know backflip. I've

17:03

probably watched every single episode of this

17:05

thing you know, forty fifty times because

17:08

we've been working on in working on

17:10

it. but I've and. Every time

17:12

I see that clip, every time I see

17:14

him doing the Forest Gump thing about the

17:16

first steps that he gets, he the first

17:18

touchdown pass that he gets from Tom Brady.

17:21

It. Never gets old for me and always puts a smile

17:23

on my face. A Met Tom

17:25

when you were doing the interviews with

17:27

different individuals having to discuss Spygate. Obviously

17:29

it's a touchy subject. how difficult was

17:32

it to broach with Bill Belichick? And

17:34

did you press him at all the

17:36

way that you did a great job

17:39

of including Armen Keteyian interview for sixty

17:41

minutes. Armin when Adam Good but did

17:43

you poor spill much. On.

17:47

This one in particular. No, I

17:49

didn't because by the time I

17:51

interviewed Bill. I. Knew

17:53

that I had the Armen Keteyian

17:55

interview and so. And

17:58

I've seen below get asked. about it enough

18:00

to know that he was never going to go

18:02

to the places that he had already gone in

18:05

the Kataian interview. And so once I had other

18:07

things that were going to be difficult that I

18:09

had to talk to Bill about, I had to

18:11

ask him about the benching of Malcolm Butler. I

18:13

had to ask him about things

18:15

related to his relationship with Tom at the end. So

18:18

there were so many other things that I wanted to

18:20

really dive into. And

18:22

so because I had the Kataian interview and

18:24

I knew that that was, I was

18:26

never going to get better than his response there. I

18:28

let it go after the first question. I

18:32

was surprised that you had Mike

18:34

Martz talking in episode

18:36

three. And Martz, I thought Martz was

18:38

very entertaining and he was animated talking

18:40

about how it pissed him off to

18:42

see America rooting for the Patriots. I

18:45

was surprised that he was silent on

18:48

Spygate. Is that something that

18:50

he didn't want to discuss? You didn't want to discuss

18:52

with him? How did that work? Because

18:54

I feel like Tom Brady and Martz for

18:56

that matter. That

18:58

was a different story. Tom, I felt like this

19:02

was really Bill and Ernie's scandal

19:04

in a lot of ways. I

19:07

was going to talk to Tom about the flakegate and I do

19:09

and you see that happen and you hear what he has to

19:11

say about it. But

19:14

with Martz, he definitely did

19:16

talk about it. And

19:19

he discussed obviously not as much

19:21

about Spygate, but more about what

19:23

the newspapers called Spygate 2, which

19:25

is the Boston Herald article that

19:27

was eventually retracted. And

19:30

look, there were early versions of some of these episodes

19:32

where we got into that. And

19:36

with everything, you got to 10 episodes into a lot

19:39

of people. They think, oh my gosh, 10 episodes about

19:41

the Patriots. That just seems like a lot. But when

19:43

you're actually in the middle of it, 10 is

19:46

nowhere close to enough to include

19:48

everything really interesting. And

19:51

Martz was fascinating on the subject. Is there any

19:53

way that you guys would ever release the outtakes?

19:56

I mean, you got to. That's a question

19:58

for Apple. Well, give

20:00

me Apple. You better reach out to that. That's right.

20:02

Get Apple on the line. Get him on the horn.

20:04

Bring him in there. There you go. I need him

20:07

now. Get him in here. this

20:10

together. I wonder how you decided

20:12

to cover the second

20:14

two Super Bowls of the first part

20:17

of the dynasty here because it is

20:19

remarkable how they go from lovable underdog

20:21

to the evil empire in a very

20:23

brief period of time because there isn't

20:26

that much time devoted to those second

20:28

two titles. Yeah.

20:31

You know, that was

20:33

something that we came to

20:35

over time. It took us

20:37

a couple different iterations. We

20:40

had started to cut scenes that involve things

20:42

like, you know, Lloyd

20:44

and Molloy leaving and Rodney coming in. And

20:47

the problem with it was a couple

20:50

of different things. One of

20:52

the things I loved about that story in particular was

20:54

it was an example of the team

20:57

sort of fracturing and being at

20:59

this really pivotal moment, not

21:01

only because of how much everybody loves

21:03

Lloyd, but also because of the

21:06

Tom Jackson comments and things like that. And

21:08

then it was about the team coming together and rallying around Bill and

21:11

sort of one of those like you

21:14

can't we can be mad at Bill, but

21:16

you can't be mad at Bill kind of thing. And

21:19

then what I realized is the exact same thing that I

21:21

was doing when I was working with

21:23

the team to make that those scenes come to

21:25

life. We were we were

21:27

going to inevitably be doing in the Spygate

21:29

episode and it just felt like you

21:32

don't need to do everything every single time. And the other part

21:34

of it that always got to me was if you

21:37

get into this trap of, okay, they get

21:39

to Super Bowl 36, then you have to

21:42

go to, you know, lawyer Molloy leaving and

21:44

Rodney coming in. And the problem with it

21:46

was a couple

21:48

of different things. One of

21:50

the things I loved about that story in particular was

21:52

it was an example of the team

21:55

sort of fracturing and being at

21:57

this really pivotal moment, not

21:59

only because of how much everybody loves Larry

22:01

Molloy, but also because of the

22:04

Tom Jackson comments and things like that. And then

22:06

it was about the team coming together and rallying

22:08

around Bill. And sort of

22:10

one of those like, we

22:13

can be mad at Bill when you can't be mad at Bill

22:15

kind of thing. And then

22:17

what I realized is the exact same thing that I was

22:19

doing when I was working with the

22:21

team to make that those scenes come to life,

22:24

we were gonna inevitably be doing in

22:26

the Spygate episode. And it just felt

22:29

like you don't need to do everything

22:31

every single time. And the other part of it that always

22:33

got to me was if

22:35

you get into this trap of, okay, they get to

22:37

Super Bowl 36, then you have to go to the

22:39

2002 season. And then you have to talk

22:42

about how they didn't make to the playoffs and

22:44

discuss why, was it because people were celebrating too

22:46

much from the Super Bowl from the year before?

22:48

Was it this, was it that? Then you have

22:50

to go into the Rodney and the lawyer thing.

22:52

And then you have to go into the AFC

22:54

Championship game against the Cole, you know, and the

22:56

competition committee and all these different things and

22:59

you just go and go and go. But then what

23:01

you find yourself doing is basically just being

23:03

a person who collects facts and basically you're

23:05

just making a glorified timeline. And that's not

23:07

storytelling. And it was really

23:09

Scott Pioli's line when he was in the interview

23:12

chair. He talks about how at

23:14

the end of that, that

23:17

third Super Bowl in four years, he was

23:19

sort of, you know, standing there looking over

23:21

all of this stuff. And he started to

23:23

have this thought about the addiction to winning

23:27

and what you will do. And Teddy also talked

23:29

about this at great length. And

23:31

it just felt like, it

23:34

felt like we had covered the thing that

23:37

made this team so magical and made them

23:39

come together in 2001. And

23:42

in a way we were just sort of saying, we

23:45

were going through all these other things, not because

23:47

they were really important to the overall story that

23:49

we were trying to tell, but more because they

23:51

happened and they're well known. And that's the

23:53

worst reason to do something. I hope you

23:55

don't think we're nitpicking. It was so good

23:57

that we're trying to find out when we.

24:00

But we have you here to find out how

24:03

the sausage got made, because there was so much

24:05

of that. Did it strike you? Did it strike

24:07

the players and the interview subjects that

24:10

they were going from hero to villain

24:12

very quickly and becoming reviled and loathed?

24:15

Was anybody dumbstruck that—how do we go

24:17

to—why are we the bad guys all

24:19

of a sudden? I

24:22

mean, I think they lived through it so they knew. And

24:25

the first instance I got of it was when I was

24:27

interviewing Ernie Adams, and we were talking

24:29

about him going

24:31

down to the snow game in 01. And

24:35

remember, in, I guess it was episode

24:37

two, he says, this is way before

24:39

we became the evil empire. And

24:41

so I remember when he said that,

24:43

because Ernie was one of the first people I interviewed, it

24:47

showed me how aware everybody was of

24:49

how they were viewed. And

24:52

then you see people like Teddy Broussky, for

24:54

example. One of my favorite lines in

24:56

episode four is when he said we were the bad guys, and

24:58

then you sort of see him lean back in his chair, and

25:00

he says, I kind of liked it, though. And

25:03

there was an embodiment of it.

25:07

There was an acceptance of it. And they kind of,

25:09

you know, they were as a badge of honor in

25:11

a lot of ways. And I

25:14

think that Strahan and

25:16

I, when we were talking, we

25:19

started talking about the Christopher Nolan Batman movies. And

25:21

we were talking about that line in there where

25:24

one of the characters says, you either die a

25:26

hero or you live long enough to see

25:28

yourself become the villain. And every

25:32

other franchise in the league at

25:34

this time, you know,

25:36

they all died a hero because they didn't make it. And

25:38

they didn't get past the divisional round or the wild card

25:40

round, or they didn't even make it into the playoffs. But,

25:43

you know, when you win three times in four

25:45

years, people get a little

25:47

tired of it. And then when all of a sudden they

25:50

get tired of it, and that means you getting caught doing

25:52

something that you guys were talking about earlier, a lot

25:54

of other people were probably

25:56

doing that, you know, people

25:58

really said. Alright, he's

26:02

Matt Hamachek, director of The Dynasty episodes 3

26:04

and 4 out on Apple TV Plus right

26:06

now. Matthew, thank you so much for being

26:08

with us.