0:00

Hey guys, I'm Kaylee Shore and this is too much

0:02

to say, but

0:05

don't go has some questions,

0:09

so I'm as said,

0:12

now tell it out.

0:14

You, okay.

0:18

On this week's episode, we are going to be discussing a

0:20

hot button topic about

0:23

narcissists. But a

0:25

lot of the information out there, a lot of the podcasts

0:27

out there skew towards dating

0:30

and marriage and occasionally parents, so

0:32

those types of narcissistic relationships.

0:35

But this week I'm going to focus on friends. I

0:37

think that that's a really important one, especially

0:39

if you're the kind of person who has like really really close

0:41

friendships, deep friendships, you can attract

0:44

these kind of people. And I also want to dispel

0:46

some myths about narcissism. The word is

0:48

grossly overused and it's

0:51

really important to understand it before you ever call

0:53

somebody that. And

0:55

I would like to say a disclaimer. I am not a doctor.

0:57

I have a high school degree and fifteen years

1:00

of experience in the music industry, but I

1:02

do have a lifetime's worth of experience

1:05

dealing with these types of people. That

1:07

being said, all of the information that

1:09

I'm using today comes from

1:13

doctors. Like I didn't do any sketchy

1:15

sources double checked everything, but

1:18

specifically Alice Frye

1:20

doctor Alice fry and doctor Romani

1:23

de Vasulam, and they're

1:25

both amazing. They're experts in the field

1:27

of narcissism and they

1:29

do a lot of research on that. Doctor

1:31

Romney has an amazing podcast. I highly recommend

1:34

you check it out, and listening to her

1:36

podcast is part of what inspired me to

1:39

do this episode. So one

1:41

of the biggest miss about narcissism, according to

1:43

doctor Romney, is that it

1:45

is only a personality disorder, where

1:47

in fact, it's actually a personality trait.

1:50

It's something that you can have the

1:52

same way that you could be agreeable.

1:55

And that's also an important word because

1:58

a lot of people, if you ask them what

2:00

the opposite of a narcissist is, they'd say,

2:02

like, oh, like someone who's humble. But the

2:04

opposite of narcissism is actually agreeableness,

2:08

agreeability, whatever that word would be.

2:11

It's being agreeable, and narcissm

2:13

goes so much deeper than just like being

2:16

vain and liking yourself.

2:18

And that's a huge, huge misconception.

2:20

These aren't people who stare in the mirror all day. They're actually

2:23

people who can't look in the mirror, so they

2:25

just say everything to other people that

2:27

they would like to say to themselves, but

2:30

they're never going to do it. So

2:33

everyone that I'm talking about on this podcast,

2:35

with my personal experience, I'm not trying to diagnose anybody,

2:37

but it is absolutely glaring

2:40

that they have some narcissistic tendencies.

2:42

So doctor

2:45

alis Fry says that narcissism

2:47

turns into a disorder when those traits

2:49

happen persistently and constantly

2:52

and they affect the narcissist daily life.

2:54

They go from just like a quirk or

2:56

something that you can work on over time,

2:59

something to talk about therapy, something to like look

3:01

inside yourself, to something that is

3:03

really difficult to treat. And there's some

3:05

really fascinating stuff out there by

3:09

narcissists talking about narcissism. So

3:12

it's there's one called the self aware Narcissist,

3:14

and it's really fascinating because he lets

3:16

you in on what it's like inside

3:18

his brain. And I thought that was actually

3:20

really hopeful because I also believed

3:23

that if someone is diagnosed with narcissistic personality

3:25

disorder, there's no treating them.

3:28

A very close member of my family got diagnosed

3:30

with that, and those are also rare diagnosis

3:32

to get because narcisis typically hate therapy

3:35

or they're really good aligning to their therapists.

3:38

Even doctor Romney, who's an expert, said

3:40

on the Call Her Daddy podcast that sometimes

3:43

she'll take months with a patient before

3:46

realizing they're narcissist. And I think

3:48

that that's terrifying and tells

3:50

you how good these people are at manipulating

3:52

people's opinions of them and just the world

3:55

around them. So

3:58

the DSMV, which

4:00

is like the Diagnostic

4:03

Manual of Mental disorders, that's

4:05

like the I mean, it's like the magnum

4:08

opus of that. That's where what

4:10

doctor's reference. It's like the thing. They

4:13

describe narcissistic personality disorder

4:15

as an overwhelming sense of self

4:17

importance, an obsession with fantasies

4:20

about being incredibly successful, powerful,

4:22

intelligent, attractive, or loved. A

4:24

belief that they are more special and unique than others.

4:27

A need for excessive admiration, a

4:29

strong sense of entitlement, a habit

4:32

of constantly taking advantage of other people, a

4:34

lack of empathy towards others, an envy

4:36

of others, and a haughty attitude, and

4:39

if you take each one of those things and

4:41

separate them, like you're likely to relate

4:44

to something I just read because

4:46

humans are imperfect. I

4:48

absolutely, I mean, I also have

4:50

an obsession with fantasies about being incredibly successful,

4:53

powerful, intelligent, attractive, and loved.

4:55

I'd like to be all of those things. I,

4:58

however, will not bulldoze

5:01

somebody else to get that, and I won't lie to somebody

5:03

else to get that. And

5:05

who doesn't want excessive admiration, right,

5:07

But there's a point where it just becomes

5:09

like icky, like I want to be admired

5:11

by the people closest to me. And I also found

5:14

out as I've gotten older, I'm like, Okay,

5:16

I don't like attension. I like validation.

5:19

I want someone to tell me, hey,

5:22

you're really good at writing songs and you should keep

5:24

doing that. I don't want like a

5:27

hundred people coming at me and being like, oh, like

5:29

like staring at me on the street.

5:31

I don't want that.

5:31

I just want to be told that I'm good at the

5:34

things that I love. But

5:36

yeah, so you're probably gonna see some of yourself in

5:38

that list. But again,

5:41

doctor alis Fry says, it's one It just like affects

5:44

your daily life on a grand scale. And I do think

5:46

that like the more severe ones that come at the end

5:48

of the list, like habit of constantly taking

5:50

advantage of other people, lack of empathy,

5:52

envy of others, in a haughty attitude, those ones are

5:54

that like, we shouldn't relate to, you

5:57

know, and the taking advantage

5:59

of thing is big,

6:01

and we're really we're going to talk a lot about that.

6:05

Narcissm is actually rooted in the

6:07

opposite of high esteem of

6:09

oneself. So it's actually not about

6:11

being vain as much as it

6:13

is about being so insecure.

6:16

So these aren't just people who look in the mirror all the time.

6:18

They're people who can't look at themselves in the mirror and

6:20

just say everything to everybody else, and that is

6:24

a really hard thing to be around.

6:28

Studies show that between three and six

6:30

percent of people have

6:33

narcissis to personality disorder, So that's not even

6:35

accounting for the people who have just like narcissistic

6:37

tendencies, but it says between three

6:39

and six percent. However, there's not a lot of information

6:42

on this because narcists are unlikely

6:44

to identify as narcissists.

6:48

They're unlikely to identify as anything

6:50

other than amazing, but chances

6:53

are you've met one. We all meet hundreds of

6:55

people in our lives, and it would make

6:58

sense that a handful of those people you meet would have

7:00

narcissis personality disorder. So if

7:02

you're like I feel like I've

7:04

come across quite

7:06

a few people with these tendencies. But I do also

7:08

think that agreeable people or people

7:10

who just give a lot tend

7:13

to attract those kind of, you

7:15

know, self centered people who want to

7:17

take advantage of them. And I

7:19

have gotten really good at setting boundaries

7:21

as I've gotten older, and I feel like kind

7:24

of ungaslightable and it

7:26

feels so good. I've been working on this in therapy.

7:28

But this has not always been like that.

7:30

I have been so gullible, just

7:33

given so much of myself to people who could not give

7:35

less of a fuck about me, and I

7:37

have been there. I've been there with men, family members,

7:41

never dated a narcisstic girl, but

7:44

I have been really good friends with one, so that's

7:46

difficult. There's actually some studies

7:49

as well that show that people have narcissistic

7:51

personality disorder have less gray matter in

7:53

their brain in the area that's

7:55

related to empathy, and

7:58

that's according to the Mayo Clinic. And then as

8:00

far as where it comes from, you

8:02

could have narcissistic parents

8:04

and both have some sort of like genetic

8:07

component to that, but also learn

8:09

from modeling yourself after

8:11

them. You also can have just toxic parents

8:14

in a different way. People who

8:16

are narcissists are very likely to

8:18

come from homes where they either had an insane amount

8:20

of pressure on them or an insane

8:22

amount of excusing

8:25

their behavior and letting them get away

8:27

with anything. So like a parent who would be like, you're

8:29

such a huge disappointment, you got to be on your

8:31

test, or the kid

8:34

goes and like lights some shit on

8:36

fire and they're like, oh, that's just how they are,

8:38

Like that's the kind of people we're talking

8:40

about. It is one

8:43

of the hardest to treat conditions for the

8:45

reason that I said earlier, like narcissists don't go to therapy,

8:47

they don't seek help. But it is amazing to see

8:49

that there are people like

8:52

the guy who runs the Self Aware a Narcissist

8:54

podcast who are seeking help and working

8:57

on themselves, and that makes me feel so much

8:59

better talking about this topic because the

9:01

whole like throw the whole person away

9:03

thing really stresses me out. But

9:05

it's also like, you do have to cut off the narcissist

9:08

in your life, but there is room

9:10

for improvement and self awareness, and

9:13

I just think that that's very, very

9:15

hopeful and helpful. We're

9:18

gonna take a quick break and then we will be back and I'm going

9:20

to talk about some of my personal experiences with this. So

9:22

we're gonna spill some tea. I will see you guys

9:24

in a bit. Okay,

9:33

So I'm gonna kind of do this part backwards, and I'm

9:35

going to tell you some stories about my experiences

9:37

with people that I consider to be very narcissistic,

9:40

and then I'm going to tell you what

9:42

to look for, and then you'll be able to kind

9:44

of see the whole picture come together from the story

9:47

and all the red flags that I missed that

9:49

you don't have to because you can research this

9:52

earlier in your life than I did.

9:56

Okay, So I think that my ex

9:58

boyfriend had some really narcisstic quality. I

10:00

don't know if he was like, I

10:03

don't want to say smart, but I don't know if he was like conniving

10:05

enough he just had really

10:08

bad rage issues. And

10:12

it's the guy that my song e Fie Forever

10:14

is about. And there was some really

10:17

scary moments in our relationship. The

10:20

first one that I can really

10:22

remember that wasn't just like little stuff

10:24

like the first well, the first little thing

10:26

that happened, I guess is maybe not that little,

10:28

but like he lied

10:31

to me about how many people he'd slept with, and

10:34

that is one thing, but he had actually

10:36

slept with somebody after we started sleeping together and

10:38

we weren't officially exclusive,

10:41

but I had asked him if he was sleeping

10:43

with anybody else because I was, you know, really

10:45

paranoid about STDs, which is a very

10:47

okay thing to be paranoid about. And he

10:49

said, no,

10:51

I haven't and I'm not and I was like okay.

10:54

And then when I we got to the point in our relationship

10:57

like a couple months later, I was like, oh, how many people have you slept

10:59

with?

11:00

Told me how many?

11:00

And like you know who they were, because

11:03

it wasn't that many at that point

11:05

and was life things have changed.

11:08

But but

11:11

then a couple months later I

11:14

found out he did a

11:16

nude shoot with this girl he hooked up

11:18

with before and I was like, hey, can you please,

11:21

like, you know, if you're gonna do a nude

11:23

shoot with her? Because I'm a cool girlfriend. I was like, could

11:25

you just like have somebody else there, like a makeup artist

11:27

or whatever. And he was

11:30

like, oh, yeah, I guess so, and I

11:32

was like, yeah, that's really important to me, and like if she so

11:35

basically like, if you're alone, could she keep

11:37

her clothes on? If she won't keep her

11:39

clothes on, can you not be alone? And I think

11:41

that's a really fair compromise. And

11:44

he told me he did that, and I was like, okay,

11:47

So we lived together at this point, and he

11:49

is showing me some pictures on his laptop

11:52

of the shoot that he did with this girl, and I was like

11:54

trying to be supportive, and then I like saw

11:57

something kind of sketchy, like she she like was

11:59

wearing like all of a sudden, she's wearing like the Risky

12:01

Business Tom

12:03

Cruise, like button down white shirt and

12:06

like no pants, and I was like, hmmm, where

12:09

did her pants go? And then I just

12:11

reached over and I pressed the forward

12:13

arrow on his laptop keyboard like really

12:16

really fast, and immediately found

12:18

all these like nudes he'd taken of her, and

12:20

I was just so fucking pissed. So

12:23

I like, grab my person and I leave. I go to a

12:25

friend's house and I come back to my house later

12:28

to get some more stuff because I was.

12:29

Not planning on coming back anytime soon.

12:32

And I was like, you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna

12:34

look at his laptop because I don't trust him, and

12:37

I feel like, you know, I

12:39

acknowledged that this is wrong, but I'm going

12:41

to do it, and I'm going to own that I'm wrong in

12:43

this scenario. And because I think, I'm

12:45

gonna find something out. And I found

12:47

out that he had slept with our roommate's

12:50

best friend, who was over the house all the time,

12:53

like maybe a week or two before we started

12:55

officially dating. And I

12:58

just never liked this girl. I always thought she

13:00

was really weird to me, and it turns out she was like in love

13:02

with my boyfriend, and that was a whole

13:04

thing. And then I got back together with him

13:06

because I'm a fucking idiot, but that

13:10

was like, that is a great microcosm

13:12

of the issues in our relationship.

13:14

And then as time went on, he kind of got

13:17

you know, more controlling and more jealous of stuff

13:19

with my career. But then it

13:22

all came to a head.

13:23

One night.

13:23

He was really drunk at a party that

13:26

I was at and it was like a work party and

13:30

I was performing and really needed to

13:32

be like on my game because there was some investors there

13:35

and there's an open bar and it was really fun. But

13:37

he drank too much and I wasn't drinking at

13:39

all because I was trying to network and I was like driving

13:41

everybody, and I was like, I'm gonna be responsible, and

13:46

he had just like twelve

13:49

too many Gen and Tonics. That's an exaggeration,

13:51

Okay, when I'm talking about people, I need to not exaggerate.

13:54

I he had like probably like eight

13:56

too many Gen and Tonics. And

14:00

on the riot, he started talking really loudly

14:02

while somebody else was performing, and I like leaned

14:04

over and then like the nicest twenty

14:07

two year old Kaylee Way, I like was

14:09

like, hey, like I think

14:11

you might be louder than you realize you are, and

14:13

like this girl's playing like a really like kind of quiet

14:15

song, like maybe you could like bring it down

14:17

a little bit, and his face just drops,

14:20

like all the blood drained out of his body and he was like, okay,

14:22

we need to go, and I was like, well, I don't really want to go, and he's

14:24

like, no, we need to go, and he goes outside and I was like okay,

14:26

fine, So I follow him out and everybody

14:29

leaves, and then when him and I are in the car

14:31

alone after we like leave

14:33

our friends, he

14:37

starts crying and screaming and saying

14:39

that I embarrassed him. And then all of a sudden, he's

14:41

like banging his fists on my dashboard

14:43

and then like reaching over and like hitting

14:46

my steering wheel

14:48

with his fist, like trying to like run

14:51

us off the road. And I was like, what the fuck?

14:53

And he's just like crying and his

14:55

voice is so deep and like loud, and

14:57

so it's really upsetting when

14:59

he would yell because it just always sounded

15:02

scary than it was, but it was very scary.

15:04

In that moment.

15:06

And so that was like the first time there was

15:09

violence of any sort involved.

15:12

And I wouldn't really even have called

15:14

that violence, but I will now

15:17

because it was like a I mean, he.

15:18

Tried to run the car off the road.

15:19

I feel like that's look at me and gaslighting

15:22

myself for him. He doesn't even have to do it anymore

15:25

anyways. So six months

15:27

later was when the incident that I talked

15:29

about in Effie Forever

15:31

happened where he

15:33

cheated on me. I took a week because

15:35

my therapist told me to to like break,

15:40

like take a.

15:40

Breather, but we weren't on a break at all.

15:42

I wouldn't stay at a friend's house, but I was like, I just need some

15:45

like space from this to think about it. If I get

15:47

back together with you, like we're getting married, and

15:50

I'm we're never breaking up if we

15:52

make it through this, So I'm trying to be responsible and

15:54

he just like at first was like okay, cool,

15:56

that's like really mature, that makes sense. And then he starts like

15:59

losing his mind. And my best friend at the

16:01

time invited us both to our birthday party,

16:03

and like I am

16:05

like, why would you invite this

16:08

guy that your fucking best friends having

16:10

issues with to your birthday party? So we have to

16:12

hang out, and once again, I was not drinking

16:15

because I was like really emotional and

16:17

didn't want to be around him, and I was like trying to be there

16:19

for my friend because like birthdays.

16:21

Are very important, and.

16:24

He like gets really

16:26

drunk at this party and pulls me into another room

16:28

and is like, I want to talk to you, like I want to get back together. And

16:30

I was like, dude, we have couples therapy scheduled

16:33

tomorrow morning at eight am, and

16:37

like we're going to talk about this with somebody

16:39

there, and we're going to do this the right way, Like I'm not talking

16:41

to you about this when you're wasted and I'm sober and

16:43

we're tired. And he

16:46

was like okay, fine, And then we get

16:48

in the uber with like three of our friends

16:50

to go back to our apartment because I was going to get some

16:52

like more stuff and then go back to my

16:54

friends, who were two of the

16:56

girls in the car

16:59

with us, and

17:02

the Uber driver's like, how's your night going.

17:04

And he's like it's going awful.

17:05

Thanks for asking, And I was like, okay, get

17:09

back to the apartment. And I'm like thinking, I'm

17:11

I'm safe. I thought he was just gonna be kind of moody

17:13

because there's so many people around, like two

17:16

of our friends around the balcony, one was in the living room,

17:18

I'm in the bathroom, and I'm kind of like having a

17:20

moment, like a little panic attack, just giving

17:22

to myself. I was getting my skincare stuff and then I just sat

17:24

up against the bathtub and I was just like, I.

17:26

Just need to breathe for a second.

17:27

That was a lot to have to be around him for

17:29

that long. And then he comes into the

17:31

bathroom like bangs on the door, opens it up, and

17:36

I don't open it up. He just walks in

17:38

and he like sits in front of me. He's like, I need to know if you're breaking

17:40

up with me, and I was like, well, the point is like I don't.

17:42

I don't.

17:42

I'm not gonna say that because we're talking about it in therapy

17:44

and like I want to do this the right way. And

17:46

he was like, I need you to tell me, and then he just starts

17:48

repeating himself like I need you tell me, I need you tell me.

17:50

You got to tell me. I need you to tell me.

17:52

And that's like kind of freaky when someone

17:54

talks to you like that. And then his voice gets

17:56

louder and louder, and he

17:58

starts he grabs me by the shoulders and he shakes

18:00

me and slams me up against the bathtom and he's like

18:03

you need to tell me, but.

18:04

Like yelling it so

18:06

loud so deep, like.

18:09

Sounds like the fucking gates of Hell opened

18:11

up, and I just like went

18:13

like limp and like could not

18:16

believe what was happening.

18:16

And then he was like, are you breaking up with me? And I was

18:19

like.

18:20

Yes, I am,

18:22

I am. And then

18:25

he runs out into

18:27

the living room, which is like right outside

18:29

the bathroom, and just starts screaming

18:32

like no at the top of his lungs

18:34

like held the note for so long

18:37

it was like operatic, both in drama

18:39

and in lung capabilities,

18:42

and I was like, God, somebody's gonna call the cops. And our

18:44

friends like heard sash saw everything happen,

18:47

like they came running as soon as they heard the slamming

18:49

because it was very parent that, like, you know, somebody

18:52

was being you know, that was

18:54

happening. So my friend comes in and sits on

18:56

the floor with me, and then he runs out to the parking garage

18:58

stands on the edge of the park garage and

19:01

then somebody comes and gets me and I was like okay, and

19:03

I like they were like, you need to talk him down off

19:05

the parking garage because he says he's gonna kill himself.

19:07

And I was like okay.

19:10

And trying to be sensitive, and

19:12

I like was still processing the fact that he just

19:15

like put his hands on me for the first time in our relationship.

19:18

And he's on the edge of the parking garage

19:20

and he looks at me. He's like, if I jump, you're

19:22

gonna be to blame and it'll be your fault. And I

19:24

was like, oh god, well I

19:27

And I don't even remember what I said to him, because I think I just

19:29

like blacked out from trauma at that point.

19:32

But I know I wasn't mean. I know, I didn't yell

19:34

or hit back. I just was like weirdly

19:36

calm because I was so traumatized

19:38

in that moment. And

19:41

so that whole night was crazy.

19:43

But then what's crazier is just how he

19:46

acted after the breakup and like talks

19:48

so much shit about me and you know, fucked

19:51

my friends and obviously

19:53

we're not my friends and just

19:55

did all this stuff. And then I know now because

19:57

I've become friends with some of his other ex girlfriends,

19:59

that he he got even like worse after

20:01

we broke up, which is horrible. But

20:04

that really points to like narcissistic

20:07

rage and that kind of like

20:09

projection, like he cheated on me. He

20:12

was angry with himself, but he

20:15

had to get angry at me because

20:17

he wished he could beat himself up instead,

20:20

but would never get to the point where he could acknowledge that.

20:22

So that was like a big one. But as

20:25

far as like other types of narcissus,

20:29

like there's some really conniving

20:31

ones out there. So there's this strategy

20:33

that narcisst will do called smear campaigns,

20:36

And everybody knows what a smear campaign is, but in

20:38

the topic of narcissm, it's specific, and it's when

20:40

somebody tries to slowly disassemble

20:42

your support system and take

20:45

all these like safety nets away from you

20:47

and make everybody hate you. And

20:50

there's like I've seen

20:52

stuff like in high school where like somebody's

20:54

mad at a girl because she's like slept with

20:57

her boyfriend and every she wants all

20:59

the girls to hate that or because you don't want her to have friends.

21:01

Like that's that's complicated,

21:03

that's drama. But then there's like this

21:05

smear campaign and basically my friends

21:07

starts dating this guy who was my

21:09

really good friend, and I don't know

21:12

what I did. I think I told I

21:14

think I told them not to move in together

21:17

after knowing each other for five weeks.

21:19

And I will stand by that.

21:22

And I was also like going through a depressive

21:24

episode of like bipolar, which I normally just

21:26

keep to myself. I take my medicine, I read,

21:29

I do yoga, I stay out of bars,

21:31

and I don't really have a social battery. So

21:33

I was doing all the right stuff that I've learned how to do in

21:35

therapy, because I've done a lot

21:37

of therapy and I know what works

21:39

for myself, right, Like we're supposed to trust ourselves

21:42

when it comes to self care. But apparently I

21:44

wasn't like around

21:47

enough and they thought I was. I

21:49

was being a bad friend, and I was like, well, I'm kind of depressed

21:51

and Sam and I are arguing a lot,

21:54

and then it just like

21:56

made no sense. Narcisis don't make any sense

21:58

if you ever like really fucking fused by

22:00

something like start thinking like

22:03

this and see if it adds up.

22:05

But even when I try to, anytime.

22:07

I try to tell the story, it just sounds crazy. But basically,

22:09

like this guy ends up like slowly

22:11

dismantling my life from my

22:14

adult best friend to my

22:17

elementary school best friend, middle school best

22:19

friend who moved to Nashville, to like

22:24

members of Sam's family, to

22:28

Sam's friends, and then to Sam himself,

22:30

and was like trying to get him to break up with me. And

22:33

I do not think it's because this guy had a crush on me. That

22:35

would be way too easily explainable. It

22:37

was just like some weird thing. And

22:39

I think it might be because I recognized

22:41

he was love bombing my friend and

22:43

I'd now seen him go through two breakups

22:46

that looked strikingly similar to each other and

22:48

was kind of like starting to be like, hmm,

22:50

this guy's being a little weird. And Narses

22:53

really hate being fucking seen. They really hate

22:55

being seen. And you know what they love to do. They

22:57

love to call you a narcissist. And

23:00

that's why we can't throw around the word. I don't

23:02

think it's fair to do that, like to

23:04

someone's face and whatever. Like you have to think

23:06

long and hard before you, you know,

23:09

come to terms with somebody being

23:12

narcissistic or having a personality

23:14

disorder, and that is something only a doctor can do.

23:16

But this shit was like undeniable, and the

23:19

lies and the gaslighting, and I have these

23:21

like crazy texts from him like

23:24

I've never gotten in this long of a text argument,

23:26

like with a guy that I wasn't dating.

23:29

I was like, what the hell, Like, we

23:31

don't what like

23:34

I thought that we only felt like this with like boyfriends

23:36

and shit, and he just was like going

23:38

off.

23:38

He sent me one of those.

23:39

Texts that was so long you had to

23:41

click on it, and I was like, God, there's

23:44

so few people on the planet I care enough to type

23:46

that long for my thumbs would hurt. What

23:48

are you even doing? And

23:51

he said this crazy thing about

23:55

because I'd lost all my friends after my breakup

23:57

with my ex boyfriend because I

24:00

don't know, he manipulated people,

24:02

like got people on his side whatever.

24:06

And he's like knew

24:08

that.

24:08

I was really really like

24:10

insecure about that and said

24:13

something like He's like, you didn't want our

24:15

whole friend group to split up like yours did after

24:18

your breakup. But that's the track you're putting us on. Deal

24:20

with your shit, and I'll keep my distance. I hope you figure it

24:22

out. And I was like, I did not put you on

24:24

any track. I intentionally kept you off of it. You

24:26

all chose to involve yourself as something you knew you didn't have

24:28

the full context for and I

24:30

was like, appreciate the space I needed, And that's the last thing

24:32

we ever said. But like, that's such a fucking

24:35

mean thing to say, to be like, everybody's gonna leave you,

24:37

just like they did last time. So when

24:39

somebody says something like that,

24:41

that's a huge red flag. Recently,

24:45

I've been dealing with somebody who reminds

24:48

me way too much of those two people.

24:50

And this person is

24:53

a woman, and I

24:56

like hate using.

24:57

My podcast to talk shit about people, but this

25:00

has just been so fucking crazy.

25:02

And this person like stole

25:05

from me and I have them like doing

25:08

something crazy on camera and

25:11

they lied about all of it and it

25:13

just gasol at me and to oblivion and

25:16

it's just been insane and I forgot

25:19

that like adults behaved like this, and

25:21

it's just so like sinister, and

25:24

I have proof for all of it. And it's like

25:27

she can literally look at a

25:29

camera and be like, no,

25:31

you're hearing that wrong, Like no, I'm not,

25:34

and she's like, yes, you are, like just thinking

25:36

that she can just gaslight like that. Well, I'm like,

25:38

girly, uh huh. I've been

25:40

to too much therapy for this. And

25:42

also you're gonna have to get better at at lying

25:44

because I can see right through you, and I

25:47

don't accuse people of things unless I have fucking receipts,

25:50

And with the stealing.

25:52

It was incredibly obvious.

25:54

Like I don't wanna tell specifics

25:56

because then it'll be you know, I'm

25:59

just trying to be ethical but

26:01

also share my story here. But

26:03

it's just really frightening to see how somebody can

26:06

manipulate you and people around them

26:08

and then turn on this like poor

26:11

me persona and try to get sympathy

26:14

and they like use your empathy against you,

26:17

and that's just crazy. So without

26:19

going too far into that situation, we're

26:21

going to take a break, and when we come back, I'm

26:23

going to give you some questions to ask yourself about

26:26

if you might be friends with an narcist, And

26:28

all of these questions will apply to any other relationship

26:30

you might have with one sibling, parent dating,

26:33

and there's lots of resources for that, and maybe I'll do a follow

26:35

up episode on like a more

26:37

specific relationship, but this

26:40

one will focus mostly on like.

26:41

Friends, and we'll be right back to talk

26:43

more about that.

26:52

So here's some questions to ask yourself about

26:54

if you might be friends with an narcist.

26:57

This all according to Choosingthapy dot com.

27:00

The article is written by two doctors. You can check it

27:02

out yourself. But these

27:04

are kind of paraphrased into examples

27:07

that I've seen myself, but I highly

27:09

recommend reading the original article. Uh

27:12

So, somebody, these all have to be

27:14

severe. These examples

27:17

can't just be like your friend

27:19

fished for a compliment one time and was like,

27:21

are you sure my hair doesn't look stupid or

27:24

like whatever. It's like compulsive

27:27

and endless and never stops

27:29

and applies to every situation like this has to be

27:32

so fucking severe, So keep that in mind

27:34

because sometimes people are just shitty. Sometimes people

27:36

are just toxic. They're not always an narcissist.

27:39

But after you hear these questions,

27:42

if you answer hell yes to

27:44

more than like four or five, do

27:46

some listen to some other podcasts of like actual

27:49

doctors talking. So

27:51

a friend who's a narcist will put

27:53

their needs first, and

27:56

that means like financially, like they

27:58

might think that they shouldn't have to pay for

28:00

dinner because you were the one who invited

28:02

them to dinner even though you said nothing about

28:04

paying. They

28:06

will you know, never offer gas

28:09

money. They'll want you to drive

28:11

them everywhere so that they don't have to

28:13

spend money on that. They'll

28:15

just assume things are being taken care of. Like if you

28:18

went and bought like let's

28:20

say you guys were going to hang

28:22

out and you went and bought like a bottle of wine

28:25

or whatever, they would never a bring a bottle

28:27

of wine the next time, and they would never

28:29

like offer you any money for that or

28:32

it just it's a one way friendship financially,

28:35

and then also just somebody who like takes advantage

28:37

of your time and they put their needs first

28:39

in that way, they run late. They

28:42

have no apology or explanation. They

28:45

don't understand why you're mad that they're late. They

28:47

could be an hour late, and you're like, dude, I have

28:49

like things to do, like what are you doing? And they're like, why

28:51

are you so mad at me? Like you're so controlling.

28:54

I have things going on too, Like why

28:56

are you acting so entitled to my time? And they're

28:58

like and you're like, wait, why are

29:00

you acting so entitled to my time? I just sat

29:02

here for an hour? What are you talking about? And

29:05

like they have a lot of rules that only apply

29:07

to them.

29:08

I e.

29:09

Like, if you were ever late, they'd kill you, not

29:13

literally, but then

29:15

the fishing for compliments thing is very

29:18

very big. It's

29:21

like dramatic insecurity, so they

29:23

might not even like narcisism

29:26

is an insecurity disorder, but this

29:29

is like kind of like a put on humility

29:31

and insecurity

29:33

thing, very like over the top.

29:36

Like let's say your friend and

29:38

it's something they know the answer to. Let's say your

29:40

friend is just got her

29:43

hair done and it looks really good and

29:45

spent a lot of money on it, and it like looks

29:47

great objectively, everyone would say it looks great,

29:50

and you haven't said anything to her about her new hair yet

29:52

because you're just so busy or you didn't notice or whatever.

29:55

And she comes up and she's

29:57

like, do you think my hair looks

29:59

ugly? I think it looks so

30:01

bad. I feel like everybody's going to make fun of me, Like it

30:03

looks so bad, right, And you're like, no,

30:05

you look like Jennifer Aniston.

30:07

What are you talking about?

30:08

And they're like, are you sure I don't look

30:10

ugly?

30:12

I just feel like I.

30:13

Look ugly in it, And then they'll like bring it up

30:15

like ten more times, and you

30:18

can tell when that's somebody who's like, hey,

30:20

do you think my hair looks bad? I don't know how I feel about

30:22

it, versus like something that

30:24

clearly looks amazing, and they just want

30:27

to hear more about how it looks amazing.

30:29

It being amazing is not enough. They must hear about

30:31

it as well.

30:34

Superficial convos. If you

30:36

have superficial conversations with your friend

30:38

that never go deeper. Let's

30:41

say you need something like support because

30:44

family member dies, they're not going to know what to say,

30:46

so they'll just say something like stock that's

30:49

like.

30:50

Oh, they're in a better place.

30:51

Change the subjects start talking about them not

30:53

have any understanding. And this friend

30:55

of mine that I've been dealing with, like one of our friends

30:58

did lose somebody, and I

31:01

was saying something

31:03

to the narcissistic

31:06

friend and I was like, yeah, I feel like we should.

31:08

Probably she wanted me to ask the other

31:10

girl for something, and I was like, yeah, I don't really want to do

31:12

that, Like she's going through a lot, and I just feel like we

31:14

should just take care of this for her because

31:17

she has all that going on. And this girl

31:19

was like, what does she have going on, I'm like, oh

31:21

my god, somebody died last week. What the fuck are

31:23

you talking about? And she was like, oh, yeah,

31:25

I guess so. And then that same exact conversation

31:27

happened like again two weeks later, and I was like,

31:30

girl, oh my god, like

31:32

tell me you have no empathy without telling me you have no empathy.

31:35

But another superficial thing is like they'll

31:38

they'll ask you no questions about yourself.

31:39

They'll talk about themselves.

31:41

They'll talk about things like looks and

31:44

boys or girls or just like

31:46

very very superficial, superficial things

31:49

that make them seem great. They'll

31:51

brag about themselves a lot. And

31:53

there's a difference between a friend like sharing something they're

31:55

excited about and a friend who's like trying

31:59

to seem superior. And

32:01

you should trust your.

32:02

Judgment on that.

32:03

That friend also may only

32:06

ask questions about you when they're going to use

32:08

them against you. So they also will mind

32:10

for information to find things that they

32:12

can either throw back in your face or say about

32:14

you. So let's say, you know, for me,

32:17

I had told that guy friend. I was like, hey, like

32:19

I'm going through or

32:22

I guess I told I told him, But before

32:24

that, I told his girlfriend. I was like, I'm going through a bipolar

32:27

episode and I'm really not doing great. I

32:30

just need to kind of take two weeks and just ride it out,

32:32

let it happen, and keep to myself, and then I'll

32:34

come out on the other side and I'll be great. And

32:36

she told him about it whatever, and then

32:39

all of a sudden, two weeks later, he's like, well,

32:41

you're mentally unwell and you just haven't been doing

32:43

well lately, and like everybody can tell. And

32:45

I was like, well, yeah, because I told everybody. And

32:48

he's like yeah, but you're making it other people's problem

32:50

and you're taking it out on other people. I'm like, how can

32:52

I take it out on everybody if I'm not talking to them,

32:54

if I'm just like in my room reading, Like

32:57

that is the healthiest depression activity

32:59

one could do that, and you know, just

33:01

sleeping, but like just immediately

33:04

through the back in my face and was like, well, you're a

33:06

bipolar and I'm like, okay, well

33:08

you clearly got something going on up there, to

33:11

buddy. And then also when

33:13

it comes to like questions about yourself

33:16

or caring about you, sometimes they

33:18

may show up to an excessive degree, like

33:20

listen to you talk and like talk

33:22

to you about a breakup on the phone for like four hours

33:25

so they can hold it over your head and.

33:26

Be your best friend.

33:27

Because this person will also not like

33:29

that you have other best friends. They'll

33:32

need to be your best best friend however

33:34

long. They need you in their life for their narcissistic

33:37

supply, which is like attention, and they

33:39

just like basically take people like a washcloth and

33:41

bring them out till there's nothing left. And while

33:43

they're doing that to you, they need

33:46

you little wash cloth to love them more than

33:48

anything or anyone. So

33:50

they might just like be really dramatic in the ways

33:52

that they support you and really inconsistent

33:54

with that. So like sometimes they'll be like, Okay, I

33:56

can't handle like I can't deal with this. I don't know why you're

33:58

complaining to me about your dad. And then other

34:01

times they may be like, oh my god, I can't believe you

34:03

would do that to you, like let's talk about

34:05

it and like drive over to your house in the middle of the night.

34:09

They'll also be entitled to your time in ways

34:12

other than just being late, but in the

34:14

way that they might be upset

34:17

when you're hanging out with other people. They

34:20

will be upset when you won't drop things to hang out

34:22

with them or help them, like picking

34:24

them up from the airport, like you might have work

34:26

or have something else that you really wanted to do, and

34:28

they want to understand, and they'll be you never help me, like and

34:30

I took you to the airport, and you'll be like, wait, you

34:32

never took me to the airport, and then they'll start saying

34:35

something crazy. And there's

34:38

this whole concept within like

34:41

narcissistic psychology about

34:43

circular conversations, which

34:45

are the biggest

34:47

red flag because when a normal,

34:49

healthy person normal

34:52

meaning you know, I

34:54

guess self aware and trying to work on

34:56

themselves, goes into

34:59

an argument, the goal is to come

35:01

out with a solution. The goal

35:04

might be to be like, you really think you're right,

35:06

and you want that other person to see you're right, but you're

35:08

not trying to like win anything.

35:09

You want them to.

35:10

See your perspective. That's what

35:12

you want, and you want them to take

35:14

the same approach as you. But being

35:17

right and winning are

35:19

not the same thing. And it's also

35:21

like being right

35:24

and winning at all costs, no matter what you

35:26

have to say, even if you have to lie, even if you have to

35:28

deny everything, even if you have to gaslight somebody,

35:30

like that's crazy. And

35:32

there's this quote online it's

35:34

called the narcisist Prayer, which is

35:36

a little dramatic, but this is exactly

35:38

how those conversations go. That

35:41

didn't happen, and if it did, it

35:43

wasn't that bad. And if it was,

35:45

that's not a big deal. And if it

35:47

is, that's not my fault. And if

35:50

it was, I didn't mean it. And

35:52

if I did, you deserved it. And

35:54

it's exactly that in circles and circles,

35:56

and then they'll like hone in on something really small you

35:58

said. You might have like pronounced a word

36:00

and they'll be like, oh, yeah, what do you mean by that, And then

36:02

you'll get distracted and try to like explain

36:05

yourself, or then they'll take like one little

36:07

thing you said and they'll try to derail

36:09

the conversation onto something totally different.

36:12

So like if you're like, hey,

36:14

I don't like that you stole money from me, and

36:17

I noticed the other day because

36:20

my wallet wasn't where I put

36:22

it, and then when I found it,

36:25

and they're like, wait, where'd you put your wallet?

36:27

And you're like, well, I put it on the counter, and they're

36:29

like, you sure, you put it on the counter because you put your stuff everywhere,

36:32

and I feel like you are always losing your

36:34

things and you throw them all over the place, so maybe

36:36

you lost it and I don't know why you

36:38

can have to do that, And also like

36:40

if you could start cleaning up the dishes more like I'm so

36:42

tired of your stuff being everywhere, and

36:44

I'm like, you haven't swept in weeks.

36:46

And then all of a sudden, you're like, wait, what we're talking about.

36:48

You're stealing money from me, and then you go down

36:50

the rabbit hole, and then getting yourself out

36:53

requires crazy strict boundaries,

36:55

like too crazy, as in like very

37:00

actually very sane, and redirecting

37:02

and redirecting and redirecting as if you're talking to a

37:04

child and you're trying to teach them how to ride a bike,

37:06

you're trying to teach them.

37:07

How to have an adult conversation.

37:09

Another thing, too, is like they'll be really harsh

37:11

with you, and like let's say they're

37:13

like, oh, have you been like working out? Because I feel like

37:15

you're looking a little you don't really look like

37:17

yourself are you okay, Are you eating all right?

37:19

Like are you good?

37:22

Because I feel it and I feel like you haven't been like wearing the

37:24

same clothes recently, Like are you insecure because you've gained

37:26

weight? Because I think you still look really good. And then

37:28

you'll be like, wait, did you say I gain weight? I don't think I gain weight.

37:31

And then they'll be like, oh my god, you're always so fucking

37:33

sensitive, and it's always you're

37:35

so sensitive, like, oh God

37:37

forbid, somebody lets something emotionally perfect

37:39

them right. Another one

37:42

is blatant lies like

37:44

you saw them do it, and they're like, no, I didn't do

37:46

it. You're always seeing things.

37:48

You always come up with stuff that never makes sense.

37:50

And I'm just so tired of being accused

37:53

of things I didn't do, like that one time

37:55

three years ago that you did this and

37:57

it was just so upsetting and so traumatic

37:59

for me, And I cannot believe that I'm still

38:01

putting up with your shit because I hate

38:04

like being your friend because I'm constantly

38:06

put through the ring air and you're like what wait, what wait?

38:10

We were talking about something.

38:10

Totally different and it just

38:13

goes off the rails.

38:16

And I think that the thing that I was talking to about

38:18

the girl I've been dealing with, like having something

38:20

on camera and here still trying to tonight. I was like,

38:22

oh my god, oh

38:24

sweetie, you were not ready for me, because

38:27

I will call you out and I see you. And

38:29

narcissists hate they love

38:32

being looked at.

38:32

They hate being seen.

38:36

Another thing, too, is like hostility. If

38:39

you came to a

38:41

friend who was like in a healthy space and wasn't

38:44

you know, didn't have all of these issues, and

38:47

you were like, heye, So

38:49

some money went missing from my wallet and I

38:51

feel like you were in the room with it when I

38:54

wasn't there, and I like, I hate having to say this,

38:56

but like, did you take

38:58

it? Because you can just give it back and we'll

39:00

be fine and we'll get over it. And

39:02

I feel like if somebody came to me with that, I'd be like, oh my god,

39:05

I'm so sorry. I

39:07

did not do that. I understand

39:09

how you could think I would because I was home at that point, but

39:11

I didn't do it. And I'd

39:14

love to try to help you find out who did, because

39:17

that sucks and I don't know who

39:19

would do that, But that's that's wild, and

39:21

you know, are you sure you don't misplaced

39:23

it somewhere like something like that, and like try to help them problem

39:25

solve, whereas a narcissist,

39:28

you'd be like, hey, you know, come to them

39:30

the same way as soft, you know, well spoken,

39:33

not from anger, and

39:36

they would be like, here we fucking

39:38

go again with you and your crazy delusions.

39:41

You just can't leave me alone. You have it

39:43

out for me and you want to ruin

39:45

my life. And I'm so tired of this smear

39:48

campaign. And you are such a narcisst

39:50

you need everybody to love you, and like you're just

39:52

like, oh my god, wait, what

39:54

are you just saying all these things about yourself to me? And

39:56

the answer is yes. And to quote my

39:58

song if You've Forever, it's my favorite

40:01

line. I wrote it with my best friends Candy

40:03

Carpenter and Nanny Wilgrin, and the line is I'm

40:06

just a mirror reflecting and you're just an

40:08

asshole projecting. And I love when

40:10

y'all seeing that really loud at shows. It makes me so happy.

40:13

So like hostility. And then if they

40:15

do get caught and you have undeniable proof and

40:17

they decide that they wanted, they're just too tired

40:19

to gas light you. I guess they will show like no

40:21

remorse, and again it'll be that didn't

40:23

happen. If it did, it wasn't that bad. If it was, that's

40:25

not a big deal. And if it is, it's not my fault. And

40:28

if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved

40:30

it. And it's just that cycle over and

40:32

over and over again. So that

40:36

is my thoughts on this scenario.

40:39

I really highly recommend, like, if any of this kind of

40:41

struck a nerve with you, I definitely

40:43

recommend doing some more research on your

40:45

own and reading some stuff. I mean, it's

40:47

really difficult because all the advice

40:49

out there for how to deal with this is to just

40:52

put up with it and stop

40:55

being friends with the person, which you

40:57

know doesn't sound doable, but

40:59

it can be, and your

41:02

life will be better with boundaries, and

41:04

you can stay friends with people that are kind of toxic

41:06

to you. But you just have to do it with boundaries

41:08

and make sure that you protect

41:11

yourself and you can still be kind.

41:13

Setting boundaries and telling somebody no does

41:15

not make you an asshole. It means you're looking

41:17

out for yourself. Saying no when someone

41:20

asks you to do something does

41:22

not make you an asshole if it's like a favor for

41:24

them and you just don't have time or you can't hang out

41:26

or whatever, like there's time so you can be an asshole.

41:28

It's like, you know, let's say

41:31

you're I keep going back to people dying, but like

41:33

your friend's dad dies and it's like, hey, can you come.

41:35

To my funeral, like the funeral with me? Like and

41:37

you being like, oh, well, sorry, I don't have a social battery.

41:39

It's like, okay, well nobody has about social battery for a

41:41

funeral, so get the fuck over it. But

41:43

then there's like, hey, like can you come shopping with

41:45

me? Like I really need to pick out a dress for this date? And it's

41:47

like, oh fuck, I really, like I don't have the money to go.

41:50

And then it's like you're such a bad friend. You never want to

41:52

hang out with me. This

41:55

is the only thing I could do the episode on this week because

41:57

I've been so stressed by this situation that

41:59

I'm trying you do not say too much about woof

42:03

Anyways, that has been

42:06

today's episode, and

42:08

I hope you guys learn something from it. Again,

42:10

I highly recommend talking checking out

42:12

Dr Rominey's podcast. It's amazing

42:14

and there's some really great advice on there. I also

42:17

liked the podcast Narcissist Apocalypse. That

42:19

one has a lot of great information about if you

42:21

think you might be dating one, but just educate

42:23

yourself, protect yourself, set boundaries, be

42:25

kind, but you do not need

42:27

to let anybody take advantage of you. I'm gayly

42:30

shore and this is too much to say.

42:33

All Go has some questions. Yes,

42:37

so I'll ask you. Now

42:41

tell it out. You