0:00

I think what

0:00

really ignited my interest in

0:02

revolutionary politics

0:02

particularly like Latin American

0:05

socialism, and that kind of

0:05

history was seen how

0:08

conservative a lot of my friends

0:08

weren't a lot of their parents

0:12

were and also how particularly

0:12

Cuban folks in Miami really sort

0:17

of stepped into their privilege

0:17

without really questioning why

0:19

it was that they were sort of

0:19

cherished immigrants and a black

0:23

folks from Haiti weren't and

0:23

those things I think really

0:26

started to provide the fuel that

0:26

to this day pushes me to always

0:30

advocate.

0:32

following is a

0:32

conversation with Andrew Santa

0:36

Lucia, a Cuban American

0:36

architect, activist, punk rocker

0:41

and writer based in Portland,

0:41

Oregon. He's an assistant

0:45

professor of practice at

0:45

Portland State University's

0:49

School of Architecture, where he

0:49

coordinates thesis research as

0:53

well as teaches architectural

0:53

theory and design. I'm Thom

0:59

Pollard on tools for nomads we

0:59

meet creative passionate

1:03

professionals, nomads, driven by

1:03

their passion for excellence and

1:07

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1:07

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1:15

this interview will be on our

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YouTube page in a week's time.

1:19

Please find us there as well and

1:19

subscribe and let us know what

1:22

you think. Architect punk rocker

1:24

revolutionary activist and

1:28

Assistant Professor of Practice

1:28

at Portland State University

1:32

School of Architecture, Andrew

1:32

Santa Lucia teaches design

1:36

studio history theory criticism

1:36

seminars, and as a graduate

1:41

thesis coordinator, born and

1:41

raised in Miami, Florida, my

1:45

conversation with Andrew was not

1:45

even remotely what I might have

1:50

expected. How could I have

1:50

expected anything I guess when

1:54

entering into a free form

1:54

conversation with a self

1:58

proclaimed revolutionary punk

1:58

rocking architect, who has among

2:03

his many creations and

2:03

accomplishments developed safe

2:06

spaces for drug users. What I

2:06

learned is that Andrew is a kind

2:11

and generous human being who

2:11

values all living human beings.

2:16

And his work and expression says

2:16

that Andrew's writing is found

2:20

in a broad range of media such

2:20

as architects, newspaper, art

2:25

Lurker and luxury home

2:25

quarterly. He runs office

2:30

andorre us, which provides

2:30

design services to community

2:34

activists, with the goal of

2:34

influencing public policy

2:37

through the architectural

2:37

discipline, most evident in

2:41

their project safe shape, a mock

2:41

safe injection facility

2:46

traveling exhibit. Andrews work

2:46

is a collaboration of bold

2:51

colors, graphics and shapes used

2:51

to translate and amplify

2:56

contemporary issues of social

2:56

justice through aesthetics.

3:00

Here's my conversation with

3:00

Andrew, Santa Lucia, in

3:03

Portland, Oregon. I've got us

3:03

I've just got to ask you about

3:09

the punk that the music tour,

3:09

like you had a love of just

3:16

rocking hard. Where did that

3:16

come from? How did that start?

3:21

Where your parents shocked? Or

3:21

were they did they feed it to

3:26

you? I mean, how? Seriously,

3:26

that's cool. Yeah.

3:29

And, and let

3:29

me this is my favorite part. You

3:32

know, this is technically the

3:32

first podcast I've done. But

3:34

I've obviously been consuming

3:34

podcasts for a very long time

3:37

and continue to work. Let me

3:37

take a step back. A little bit

3:41

about my background, because I

3:41

feel like there's no way to

3:44

understand the story without

3:44

understanding my background. So

3:48

I was born in 1985 in Miami. I

3:48

am I'm Cuban. And also have

3:55

Sicilian. And so I think there

3:55

are a lot of things that define

4:00

me. And a lot of things that

4:00

define perhaps a story. Perhaps

4:06

most notably, the fact that in

4:06

the late 80s, my my dad was

4:16

sentenced to 17 years in federal

4:16

prison. And so I'm the child of

4:20

an incarcerated person. I grew

4:20

up working class in a single

4:25

parent household, in

4:25

multigenerational Cuban

4:29

households in Miami. And for the

4:29

early part of my life, right,

4:35

there was an element of having

4:35

to navigate that having to

4:39

navigate, obviously, the justice

4:39

system or the injustice system

4:42

in the United States. And also

4:42

having to see like my my working

4:46

class mother was an immigrant

4:46

that came in the 1960s to the

4:49

United States sort of engaged

4:49

that. So there's certainly a big

4:55

element of that piece of the

4:55

puzzle. Another part of that

5:00

piece of the puzzle. And this is

5:00

kind of like riffing a little

5:03

bit on, on the on that comedian

5:03

Ricky Gervais who talks about

5:09

how the church was the other

5:09

parent in the equation for him

5:15

growing up, he opens, it also

5:15

happens to be an atheist, right,

5:18

just like myself. And so, you

5:18

know, 12 years of Catholic

5:22

school from a very early age,

5:22

but happily being in that world

5:28

until not right. And at some

5:28

point in high school, you know,

5:35

my brother and I were like,

5:35

inset were inseparable as kids.

5:38

And we're only a few years

5:38

apart, like two and a half years

5:42

apart, but we always kind of

5:42

knew we wanted to play music.

5:45

And we certainly listened to

5:45

like heavy stuff. But I wouldn't

5:50

say was underground. And it

5:50

wasn't until high school, right

5:53

around the year 2000, where I

5:53

get introduced to, you know,

5:59

real underground music, not like

5:59

the soundtrack of Tony Hawk Pro

6:03

Skater, which is a great

6:03

soundtrack. By the way. You

6:06

know, we've had a lot of incredible punk bands and bands that I still love today, like

6:08

bad religion, and things like

6:11

that. But it wasn't until the

6:11

early 2000s, where I, in earnest

6:17

started my sort of journey in

6:17

punk and alternative music, and

6:22

activism and alternative

6:22

lifestyles, etc. And, you know,

6:29

in Miami, one thing to know

6:29

about Miami, is very different

6:33

than most United States cities.

6:33

In fact, it absolutely does not

6:37

feel like you're in the United States. And I think that's one of the best things about Miami,

6:39

I have a lot of criticisms about

6:43

the state of Florida in general,

6:43

and also about Miami in general.

6:46

But that has to be one of the

6:46

most amazing parts about it.

6:50

Specifically, the fact that it

6:50

does feel like you're living in

6:54

a sort of, in a sort of exclave

6:54

of Latin America. And it really

6:59

is a sort of conglomerate of

6:59

several Latin American

7:03

countries, right? There's 33

7:03

countries in Latin America, even

7:06

though there are dominant

7:06

demographics of folks, like

7:11

Cubans, for example, in Miami,

7:11

right? There, there every single

7:15

country in Latin America, and

7:15

also Europe, and also the global

7:18

South, and also Asia, and also

7:18

the Middle East is represented

7:21

there. So I felt very lucky to

7:21

grow up somewhere where 70% of

7:27

folks were not, you know, white

7:27

Americans, right? I actually

7:34

thought that that's the way the

7:34

world operated, until I moved to

7:37

Chicago, in 2010. And I still I

7:37

traveled a lot between those

7:43

years, where I started being a

7:43

punk went to college, found

7:47

architecture, in college, and

7:47

spent, you know, sort of many

7:52

years having these two lives,

7:52

that was like this punk life and

7:56

this academic life. And, you

7:56

know, probably more on that, but

8:01

I, at the end of the day, the

8:01

big thing for me, and one of the

8:04

criticisms that I would get from

8:04

folks on both sides of both

8:07

parts of my lives, where I'm not

8:07

sure if you are merging both of

8:11

those lives, as well as you

8:11

could be, I always used to get a

8:15

little upset about that. But I

8:15

can tell you now at 37 I'm a

8:19

parent, you know, I'm a full, a full

8:21

time professor at a public

8:26

university, but also still kind

8:26

of daily trying to sort of

8:32

advocate for, for revolution and

8:32

advocate for, for folks that are

8:40

sort of constantly being oppressed, and also being oppressed by things that that I

8:42

do like architecture. So there's

8:47

a lot there, obviously, to

8:47

unpack, but it's definitely a

8:52

passion project for me trying

8:52

to, to be myself and all the

8:56

ways that I am as as much as

8:56

possible.

8:59

So did you have

8:59

you been to Cuba? Did you gone

9:03

there to visit relatives?

9:04

Oh, it's on

9:04

the docket? on the docket, but

9:08

eventually, I think it'll

9:08

happen, you know, there, you

9:12

know, it's, it's funny, because,

9:12

and maybe just a quick part

9:18

about like, I'm Cuban, but I

9:18

wouldn't say I'm a very good

9:21

American Cuban. Because, you

9:21

know, I can't think of a more

9:27

kind of, of a sort of

9:27

conservative Latin American

9:30

populace than Cuban Americans.

9:30

And that's just not me. And now

9:37

there was my family, as well.

9:37

My, my family, like a lot of

9:41

folks supported the Cuban

9:41

revolution. They, you know, they

9:45

left for their own personal

9:45

reasons. But this sort of

9:50

tendency to support like some

9:50

really kind of atrocious

9:56

policies against Cuba,

9:56

particularly to the Cuban

9:59

embargo, which is basically

9:59

human rights abuse. That's

10:05

something that my family never

10:05

really was about. And so, you

10:09

know, myself being I consider

10:09

myself, the way I like to tell

10:14

people is that I am a communist

10:14

in the street and anarchists and

10:21

machines. So it's kind of this

10:21

this engagement that for me,

10:26

like, activism really opened my

10:26

mind and also, my life to other

10:32

perspectives, particularly of

10:32

other Latin American countries,

10:35

were truly truly beautiful

10:35

revolutionary histories were

10:39

much more celebrated than, than

10:39

in Cuba. So I haven't been there

10:42

yet. But I'm very excited to

10:42

eventually go and take my kid

10:46

and obviously, my wife to we're

10:46

very excited eventually.

10:50

So that's cool.

10:50

And I, boy, I'd love to be there

10:54

with you. So, you know, because

10:54

I love seeing other people do

10:58

things like that, that, that

10:58

would be something else to

11:02

experience it and watch it

11:02

through your eyes, and your

11:04

children's too. So, Andrew, do

11:04

you have a memory of what might

11:11

have ignited that idea of, of

11:11

revolution of protest of

11:16

injustice?

11:19

Wow, um, you

11:19

know, I think from a very early

11:23

age, my mom, in her own way, was

11:23

absolutely integral in that. You

11:32

know, my mom, obviously, went a

11:32

little bit like, kind of, over

11:38

and above what, like something

11:38

like a Catholic church might

11:42

suggest around charity, and

11:42

instead, um, you know, really

11:47

suggest on, on how to engage in

11:47

mutual aid, which we didn't call

11:51

it, obviously that back then.

11:51

But I think growing up around

11:56

her was really important on that

11:56

end, because she's incredibly

12:01

empathetic, and, and so on. On

12:01

that end, I think from a very

12:07

early age, I always kind of

12:07

bought into the more

12:10

revolutionary side of whatever

12:10

my upbringing was, it wasn't

12:13

conservative, right? If I have

12:13

to say what was like sort of my

12:17

awakening, it's probably like,

12:17

mid High School, and then

12:23

obviously, out of high school,

12:23

but like, um, you know, late

12:26

90s, obviously, WTO, Seattle,

12:26

FTA, Miami, 2003. That is really

12:37

the height of my introduction

12:37

into underground music and Punk

12:41

in Miami, and, you know, I'm

12:41

watching I mean, this is

12:46

obviously college starts for me,

12:46

doesn't three. So I start

12:49

getting educated a bit on the

12:49

kind of history of the world and

12:53

also the history, you know, US

12:53

imperialism and all parts of, of

12:58

the world, and particularly in

12:58

America, and, you know, it all

13:04

kind of coincides. Right. And,

13:04

you know, you see police

13:07

violence, right, you see,

13:07

particularly police violence

13:11

against black and brown people

13:11

in the United States, right. You

13:16

know, you see, obviously,

13:16

poverty sort of ramping, and

13:22

particularly that point in

13:22

Miami, you know, the sort of

13:26

typical, like, the neoliberalism

13:26

of the 80s, obviously, stretched

13:30

into the 90s, and continued very

13:30

much to this day. And so it

13:34

wasn't affordable, even back

13:34

then. So there was a lot of that

13:37

part of it. I think, what really

13:37

ignited though my sort of

13:44

interest in revolutionary

13:44

politics, particularly like,

13:47

Latin American socialism, and

13:47

that kind of history was seen

13:51

how conservative a lot of my

13:51

friends weren't a lot of their

13:55

parents were and also how a lot

13:55

of folks, particularly Cuban

14:00

folks in Miami, you know, really

14:00

sort of stepped into their

14:05

privilege without really

14:05

questioning why it was that they

14:09

were sort of cherished

14:09

immigrants and a black folks

14:14

from Haiti warrant, right. And

14:14

those things, I think, really

14:19

started to provide the fuel that

14:19

to this day, really kind of, you

14:24

know, pushes me to, you know,

14:24

continue to always advocate, you

14:30

know, but at the same time, I'm

14:30

also like, questioning myself

14:35

publicly and also my own premise

14:35

publicly. So I can at least give

14:37

folks like a I don't know maybe

14:37

perhaps like a vehicle for them

14:42

to like, get into a kind of

14:42

revolutionary spirit, but But

14:46

again, it's also very much about

14:46

the music. And, you know, this

14:52

is this is my first podcast

14:52

would be a terrible thing not to

14:55

talk about later in the 2000s,

14:55

probably around 2008 2009 sort

15:00

of got reacquainted with a band

15:00

that probably Nobody considers

15:03

revolutionary, but is easily

15:03

perhaps the most revolutionary

15:06

band, or one of the most

15:06

registered fans of all time,

15:09

which is Chumbawamba. A lot of

15:09

people remember them as a sort

15:13

of one hit wonder. And they were

15:13

the they were anarchists punk

15:16

band from the early 1980s. In

15:16

the UK, they ran ran in the same

15:20

crowd as bands like crash and

15:20

conflict and, and they were

15:24

peace pumping, you know. And

15:24

that message, they had this

15:29

message, even that song that's

15:29

very popular, right,

15:31

theatricality was big

15:31

performance was big, but it was

15:34

trying to create a cultural

15:34

vehicle for people to like,

15:37

accept revolutionary ideas. And

15:37

I think that's a big part of

15:40

what I try to do with my work.

15:40

My work is very bold, colorful,

15:44

you probably have seen some of

15:44

it, and I tried to make it easy

15:48

for not only for people to like

15:48

sort of agree with it, or to

15:51

enjoy it. But I also try to

15:51

impregnated with with elements

15:56

of, of social critique of

15:56

revelatory politics of, you

16:02

know, anti capitalism, anti

16:02

fascism, anti racism. So, um,

16:06

that's a lot about, like, the

16:06

work part. I don't know if it's

16:09

transitioning to that in the podcast or not. But like that, for me, in this kind of

16:11

conversation makes a lot of

16:14

sense. Yeah,

16:15

that's really

16:15

beautiful. And the the thing is,

16:18

is there's I have, I'm just

16:18

really curious to find how how

16:22

an individual evolves and finds

16:22

the person that he or she is

16:28

meant to become. And ultimately,

16:28

what people who are truly

16:32

curious individuals do is they

16:32

follow the things that interest

16:36

them, and then they they spend

16:36

time with other people. Did you

16:41

hear this? Or did you see that?

16:41

And that's how we do things. And

16:45

then suddenly, you're like me,

16:45

and you're 60 years old, and

16:49

some kid reaches out who's 23

16:49

years old on Instagram and says,

16:53

I've been following you for

16:53

years. Can I talk to you? And

16:56

it's like, was it fully? Yes, of

16:56

course, I always say yes, but,

17:01

but the idea is that you

17:01

continue to seek out information

17:06

and knowledge and hopefully it

17:06

turns into wisdom, and your work

17:11

begins to speak. Right? And so,

17:11

for you in a punk band, you

17:18

create a mood you set a stage

17:18

with what the kind of chords you

17:22

play, are the kind of vocals are

17:22

words in your, in your songs,

17:27

and how loud it is, or how sharp

17:27

are hard. Is it a minor key? Is

17:32

it a major key? Do you do

17:32

different intonations and, and

17:36

then architecture is the same

17:36

thing, except you're creating

17:40

something by space, or the ways

17:40

something is built. And I'm

17:45

fascinated by that. Because you

17:45

say you use bold colors and, and

17:50

they're, you know, graphics and

17:50

shapes and things. So honestly,

17:56

I couldn't even I guess I know

17:56

how to what room I know when I

18:01

like a room when I walk into it.

18:01

But I don't always know how to

18:04

create that vibe. So how do you

18:04

do that? And how did you learn

18:09

it? So did you go to college

18:09

ultimately, to say, I'm going to

18:12

be an architect or I'm going to,

18:12

or I'm going to learn how to

18:15

play a few more instruments and

18:15

be a musician, you know?

18:20

College,

18:20

right? Yeah, you know, I was I

18:22

was getting out of high school

18:22

in early 2000. I started high

18:25

school in late 90s. And

18:25

finishing early 2007. Three, I

18:28

graduated. And there was never a

18:28

question that I was gonna go to

18:32

college, which is really weird,

18:32

because I was I was the first

18:35

person in my family to go to

18:35

college. And but there was like,

18:39

never a question, you know, and

18:39

I understand that now. Right? I

18:42

did, regardless of I did go to

18:42

private school my entire life.

18:46

You know, my mom, that was like,

18:46

something she decided to do.

18:49

Because she was like, well, this

18:49

kids have it pretty hard. So

18:53

let's, like, you know, I never

18:53

understood that, you know, I

18:56

never understood until now, of

18:56

course, right. As I literally

18:59

enrolled my child into school

18:59

for for the fall, right? I just

19:03

didn't know what I wanted to do.

19:03

I remember reading my senior

19:07

year. I kind of was like, maybe,

19:07

I remember thinking, I think I

19:13

remember like some sciences like

19:13

I was like maybe botany or

19:16

something. And, you know, I got

19:16

early acceptance at Florida

19:20

International University, which

19:20

is one of the third largest

19:22

public institutions, public

19:22

universities in Miami. And of

19:27

course, in Miami, you have

19:27

University of Miami, which is

19:30

the famed private school. And

19:30

then of course, suntan

19:35

University, as they used to call

19:35

them in the 1980s. And then, and

19:39

that the summer before, I had to

19:39

basically like, apply to the

19:45

School of Architecture. And it

19:45

was I don't know if it was like,

19:48

I don't remember if it was like

19:48

a heart application. But I had

19:51

to and I just put in my

19:51

application. I got a I got a

19:54

letter, like right at the end of

19:54

high school that said I was on a

19:57

waitlist and I didn't get in and

19:57

I was like, I I didn't think

20:00

twice about it, I was kind of

20:00

like, I'm not sure what this

20:03

means, like, I'll just go to

20:03

college and then we'll see what

20:06

happens. And then on my

20:06

birthday, we're in the middle of

20:08

band practice, actually. And my

20:08

aunt calls me downstairs and

20:12

she's like, You got a letter

20:12

from FIU School of Architecture.

20:14

And it said, I got in and on my

20:14

birthday, my on my 18th

20:18

birthday. Wow. And I remember

20:18

looking at that letter for it.

20:22

That's the one that felt the

20:22

most like that college

20:24

acceptance letter, like I was

20:24

already accepted to college. But

20:28

that letter, I remember sitting

20:28

down looking at it being like,

20:32

Oh, I think this is important.

20:32

And I made my aunt drive me in

20:36

rush hour traffic, 45 minutes to

20:36

like, give it to the office. I

20:40

couldn't waited a couple of

20:40

days. But I can Mater drive me

20:44

to the school of architecture is

20:44

my first time going down and

20:47

seeing where I would study for

20:47

the next seven years, right

20:49

on the spot. So

20:49

bad. Is over. So guys, sorry,

20:53

we'll see you tomorrow, or Yeah,

20:54

exactly. The

20:54

bank bad practice was definitely

20:56

over. And I went

21:00

and gonna be an architect.

21:02

I know, boy,

21:02

here we go. From that point on.

21:06

I feel like I got really lucky

21:06

now that I mean, I'm the

21:09

Graduate Admissions coordinator

21:09

at my particular school right

21:11

now, traditional architecture

21:11

was handed off, right? You

21:15

probably maybe in high school,

21:15

there was a drafting class,

21:17

right. And so the trade of

21:17

drafting in the United States

21:23

was a major thing. Not so much

21:23

anymore. But now there's a kind

21:27

of different problem I will not

21:27

get into. But in terms of

21:31

1989 2003, like that era of me

21:31

going to high school, and then

21:34

graduating and starting

21:34

architecture 20,003 The computer

21:39

was already ubiquitous by that

21:39

point. It was like immediate,

21:44

you know, like, we got to

21:44

school, and they were like, Hey,

21:47

you're probably going to need to

21:47

get a laptop. And I'm like, Are

21:49

you kidding? Like, we can't

21:49

afford a laptop, you know, hey,

21:52

I was very lucky that my aunt

21:52

worked at one of those major,

21:57

kind of like, office supply

21:57

stores, and was able to heavily

22:03

discount a laptop for me. And,

22:03

you know, from day one, I

22:09

remember thinking like, Yeah,

22:09

we're gonna just, we're gonna

22:12

make a house for plants, right?

22:12

And we showed up day one. And

22:18

they were like, you're gonna be

22:18

in your own studios. And we're

22:21

like, we have our own studios

22:21

access 24 hours a day, we're

22:25

talking about, like, these are

22:25

working class, like literally

22:29

working class, some middle class

22:29

students never had a third space

22:35

other than their house or their

22:35

school, right? That is just

22:37

there. And that's a cornerstone

22:37

of architecture, education and

22:41

art, of course, right studio

22:41

space. And they're like, this is

22:46

yours. And we're like, what, and

22:46

then on each of our desks, there

22:49

was this black piece of, of

22:49

sheer fabric that was kind of

22:53

rigid. And there was like a

22:53

paper next to it that said, you

22:57

have to do these actions to

22:57

this. And I'm like, what, what

23:00

is going on here? It, it ended

23:00

up turning. It's basically a

23:04

form driven exercise that was

23:04

like, supposed to make you not

23:08

think about a house. It was it

23:08

makes it makes you think about

23:11

objects and forms. From that

23:11

point on. I mean, you know, I

23:16

just I lived and breathed it. I

23:16

lived and breathed it because it

23:19

was so radically different. Most

23:19

of our faculty were coming out

23:23

of places like Columbia

23:23

University, which in the 90s was

23:26

the one that integrated the

23:26

computer the most. And they

23:31

famously had the studios in the

23:31

90s, called the paperless

23:34

studios. So that was all on

23:34

computers. It was all on on sort

23:39

of these giant desktops, right

23:39

back in the day that could

23:43

actually like do computing

23:43

processing in the mid 90s. And

23:46

those were my professors. So

23:46

yeah, it's very exciting is a

23:51

very exciting time. It was

23:51

really, like now I teach. I

23:56

teach architecture, which, you

23:56

know, it's one of my passion. So

23:59

I'm in the midst of architecture

23:59

course right now I taught Yes.

24:03

And I try to explain that

24:03

history to students a lot,

24:06

because architecture really

24:06

changed during those years.

24:12

You're listening to my conversation with architect, punk rocker

24:14

revolutionary activist and

24:18

Assistant Professor of Practice

24:18

at Portland State University's

24:22

School of Architecture. Andrew,

24:22

Santa Lucia. Tools for nomads is

24:28

brought to you by top drawer top

24:28

drawers mission is to make

24:32

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24:44

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24:44

Massachusetts in 2017. I've

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24:52

They design and make and

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25:00

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25:00

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25:05

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25:05

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25:09

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25:30

architecture

25:30

in general has a problem. And

25:32

the problem is that they look at

25:32

everyone as a client. Right?

25:37

Because architecture is

25:37

effective, a very effective tool

25:40

of capitalism, it's a very

25:40

effective tool, by the way of

25:43

settler colonialism to like,

25:43

without architecture, there's no

25:46

way to colonize the United

25:46

States architecture literally,

25:50

after you killed, you know, the

25:50

Native Americans, then you put

25:54

buildings on where they lived,

25:54

right? And so architecture is

25:58

always the second line of

25:58

defense is the offense really,

26:02

in terms of something like

26:02

settler colonialism? And

26:05

capitalism, right? So what I

26:05

always tell folks is, number

26:09

one, you can't necessarily just

26:09

be always with this kind of like

26:12

business mindset, right? It's

26:12

all about clients and stuff,

26:16

right? Instead, I think it's

26:16

very important for for all of

26:20

us, not just architects to you

26:20

know, immerse ourselves in the

26:23

communities in the worlds that

26:23

we want to be a part of right.

26:25

Now, if ultimately, someone

26:25

doesn't want to be a part of

26:28

that community, maybe they don't

26:28

necessarily want to, like, do as

26:32

much good as they think they

26:32

want to do for that community.

26:35

And being a part of the community doesn't mean going in appropriating their culture,

26:37

right, being a part of that

26:40

community is being a an not only

26:40

an ally, but an accomplice and

26:46

also a comrade, right. And that

26:46

might look like being able to

26:52

bring whatever it is that you do

26:52

well, or whatever it is that you

26:55

you can bring, whether it's

26:55

whether it's funding, right, if

27:00

you have a lot of money, or

27:00

whether it's, you know, your

27:03

tools, if you have a lot of

27:03

tools, you know, bringing into

27:06

the space and be like, you know,

27:06

I'm I'm here if you need me, and

27:08

I'm and I'm also here if you

27:08

don't need and I think stepping

27:12

into architecture that way for

27:12

myself. I had that I had that

27:16

kind of dual life in the mid

27:16

2000s, late 2000s as an activist

27:19

and an architect, and the

27:19

clothes the first real project

27:22

that I think we we did, that

27:22

kind of brought both of those

27:26

worlds together for me, was

27:26

right around 2006, I was working

27:31

very closely with some awesome

27:31

socialist anarchist groups, in

27:38

college and in Miami. And we

27:38

were all working around housing

27:41

insecurity, and particularly

27:41

houseless. We didn't really call

27:44

it houses like that, we just

27:44

call it homelessness. Now, and

27:47

importantly, we call it house

27:47

lessness. Because a home could

27:51

be many things, but houses is

27:51

the kind of physical structure

27:55

right? Home could be a place

27:55

home could be people, right? And

27:58

so we work very closely with you

27:58

Mojo village, your motor village

28:04

was an autonomous collective of,

28:04

of homeless folks in Miami,

28:12

mostly black, that decided to

28:12

squat on a piece of land in

28:19

Liberty City, and Liberty City

28:19

was one of the first

28:24

incorporated cities in the

28:24

United States. And the poor can

28:29

be in housing projects. Were the

28:29

first like housing projects for

28:32

particularly black folks. During

28:32

the Jim Crow era. We activists,

28:36

as well as houseless activists,

28:36

basically helped to set up a

28:42

village, a squat village. And we

28:42

would we would basically just go

28:48

and listen, you know, we would

28:48

basically go and listen, we were

28:51

young, we're in our undergrad

28:51

years, we decided that it wasn't

28:55

enough for us to do that. So we

28:55

did was quietly overnight. One

29:02

night, we all went back to

29:02

campus. And we constructed a

29:05

shanty in the middle of campus

29:05

and squatted in the for an

29:10

entire couple of weeks, we were

29:10

able to you know, basically in

29:14

that drive, you know, we were

29:14

able to get the library set up

29:19

at the module village, we had,

29:19

you know, it was my first time

29:21

getting interviewed by by, by

29:21

us, you know, and it was

29:25

certainly amazing, but it could

29:25

not have been done without,

29:29

without a lot of help. The cool

29:29

thing was, it was the first time

29:32

that I realized that I kind of

29:32

needed architects at that point.

29:35

And it was really great to be

29:35

able to like take, like scrap

29:39

models and a bunch of stuff from

29:39

the School of Architecture in

29:42

the middle of the night and just

29:42

build it. That was that was

29:46

really like I think one of the

29:46

first times where I was like,

29:48

You know what, I this seems the

29:48

this is the right path. It would

29:52

be a few more years before I

29:52

would find other vehicles, but

29:57

that one was like a great Great

29:57

start.

30:01

Yeah, you know,

30:01

it's interesting. And I

30:04

certainly hope I don't jinx the

30:04

possibility of getting this guy

30:07

on the podcast, but actually

30:07

reached out to an architect in

30:12

Miami. He's a Chicago born guy

30:12

by the name of Jermaine box.

30:18

And you're

30:18

one of my closest friends.

30:21

Oh my gosh, okay,

30:21

so maybe I didn't jinx it,

30:24

but I might

30:24

have been I did not jinx it, you

30:26

will remain. Oh my gosh, we

30:26

left. He's from Chicago. I'm

30:30

from Miami, we literally left

30:30

the same year. And cross we

30:34

become friends too later.

30:36

Well, well, so So

30:36

just for the listener or the

30:39

viewer. So the how I found your

30:39

main Barnes was this fascinating

30:43

talk that he did down in Miami

30:43

called the agency of

30:47

architecture. And essentially,

30:47

he talked about how how

30:50

architecture in a city can be

30:50

created to exclude certain

30:54

cultures or, or, if you will,

30:54

the black and brown communities,

30:58

which is what he was talking

30:58

about. And he just comes in as

31:01

this. Here's this architect who

31:01

just, if he couldn't get an

31:05

answer from someone, he didn't

31:05

wait around to get it. He's

31:08

like, who owns that wall over

31:08

there. Nobody knows, while we're

31:11

painting it, and we'll just

31:11

wait, you know, when he created

31:14

this park and talked about all

31:14

the people who came into this

31:17

park to help create this space

31:17

that was inclusive, and I was

31:22

just so endlessly fascinated

31:22

with his work and his life's

31:26

work. And he speaks about it

31:26

with such humor and humility.

31:30

Without me going on a digression

31:30

here, this, that's what you're

31:34

talking about how architecture

31:34

can be a weapon? To right,

31:39

what's your,

31:39

you know, that's, that's, that

31:41

actually is an astute point,

31:41

right? Architecture is has

31:45

always been a weapon, or really

31:45

terrible. And so part of the

31:50

work that we're trying to do is,

31:50

and this is maybe the little

31:54

edge, bringing in the kind of,

31:54

you know, critical edge into it.

31:58

But I do want it to be a weapon

31:58

against white supremacy, I do

32:01

want it to be a weapon against,

32:01

you know, fucking Nazi pieces of

32:06

shit, you know, like, I want it,

32:06

I want it to be inclusive.

32:10

Right. But at the same time, you

32:10

know, I don't want it to lose

32:12

its edge. So there's that.

32:15

So in terms of

32:15

your work, Andrew, so are you.

32:19

You talked about the importance

32:19

of a laptop? What are what are

32:23

some of the other things that

32:23

you have to have at least to be

32:27

productive and creative? And can

32:27

you can you work just as

32:31

efficiently in a cafe or in a

32:31

closet? Or, you know, or do you

32:37

need a

32:37

great? That's a great question.

32:40

You know, I'm, I've had a very

32:40

weird relationship with work for

32:43

a long time, I always joke that

32:43

I'm, I feel like a terrible

32:47

work. I'm like, the main, a big

32:47

communist, but a terrible

32:51

worker. But it's not that I

32:51

think it's because I, I, I

32:57

Generalized Anxiety Disorder, you know, I take antidepressants. And I think for

32:59

a very long time, I had a lot of

33:03

weird, creative anxiety. And it

33:03

would always force me to kind of

33:07

work in ways that didn't make me

33:07

comfortable, but I always would

33:10

hit what I needed to hit, you

33:10

know, like, all the goals that

33:12

you need to hit over the last

33:12

year. I've been on great meds.

33:15

And I've produced a couple of

33:15

projects that, I think now show

33:21

me my next, my next phase, and

33:21

I'm able to sit down for a few

33:25

hours and just turn it out and

33:25

not feel bad. So in terms of

33:31

like, the space of production,

33:31

traditionally, right? I was a

33:37

hustler. So I didn't really have

33:37

an office. So it was really like

33:40

working at coffee shops, or, you

33:40

know, I would teach part time at

33:43

schools like in Chicago, and I

33:43

work wherever I could, I didn't

33:47

really like working at home, I

33:47

didn't have a great setup at

33:50

work at home. So where I am now,

33:50

in terms of where I like to

33:54

work, right, the pandemic

33:54

shifted it because I do I did

33:57

like to work at coffee shops.

33:57

And I did like to just be out

34:01

and about, you know, but I have

34:01

some nice places to work now in

34:05

my home. And my wife and I have

34:05

tried to develop because of the

34:09

pandemic better work from home

34:09

setups, and we have better work

34:12

from home setup. So happy to do

34:12

it there. But I have my office

34:15

in school now. And it's I'm

34:15

very, I'm very grateful to have

34:19

had an office for the last six

34:19

years. And you know, that office

34:22

is it's really a kind of a

34:22

monument to all the creative

34:26

anxiety of the past and also

34:26

hopefully the little less

34:29

creative anxiety with the

34:29

future. In terms of tools. I

34:32

think it really depends on what

34:32

I'm doing right? I draw every

34:36

day, in a way in some form or

34:36

another. Not as much as I would

34:40

like to but I always I do draw

34:40

by hand. And so over the last 15

34:46

years, I've had iPads but you

34:46

know, sometimes I originally

34:51

like maybe 12 years ago, I had

34:51

the iPad I used it a lot. It was

34:54

very bad for drawing now they're

34:54

very good

34:56

for drawing. Man

34:56

made a lot of progress

34:59

March of

34:59

last Last year of 21, I decided

35:02

to go in and get myself a new

35:02

iPad. But I also am very fast

35:06

with 3d modeling tools. I use a

35:06

tool called Rhino. Rhinoceros,

35:13

right. Rhino is a tool that

35:13

architects love, however, comes

35:18

from the world of, of designed

35:18

objects. Rhino is a very

35:25

straightforward program with a

35:25

lot of accuracy. And I think if

35:28

I can hammer home one thing

35:28

about architecture, maybe people

35:31

figured this out already, some

35:31

of them, maybe your listeners do

35:34

it. I think what sets

35:34

architecture apart from art is

35:39

this very specific interest in

35:39

accuracy. And reality, not

35:45

reality, like, you know, you

35:45

know, like a very conventional

35:48

or ugly or bad reality, but

35:48

reality in the sense of like, I

35:50

can give you a document and know

35:50

that if you follow it, like the

35:53

people like the contractors

35:53

outside of my house right now,

35:56

right, like, they can follow it.

35:56

But in terms of design, that's

36:00

my those are my main tools. I

36:00

use, obviously, the whole suite

36:05

of Adobe as well, for me,

36:05

illustrator is the most one of

36:11

the most powerful kinds of

36:11

drawing software's are, yes,

36:16

drawing software's, and

36:16

illustrating software's. And it

36:19

wasn't until I started using,

36:19

you know, about 1213 years ago,

36:22

I think my architecture got

36:22

better. Because Illustrator is

36:25

about lines. That's like, its

36:25

main, one of its main things,

36:28

right? Photoshop is about

36:28

images, right? It's about photo

36:32

editing, it's and I love and

36:32

I'm, I'm an expert at all of

36:35

them. But in terms of

36:35

Illustrator, that's when I think

36:39

a lot of it's where a lot of my

36:39

stuff comes to life, I really

36:42

love comics. And so I also

36:42

produce I've, throughout the

36:47

years, I've used comics as a

36:47

form of representation for

36:52

architecture. And so I would say

36:52

that's like my main kind of main

36:55

stuff. I also do visualizations

36:55

as well. So you know, 3d

37:00

animations and things like that.

37:00

Now, the thing where my life

37:03

really has changed, is in the

37:03

building part of it, you know, I

37:06

have built a lot of exhibitions

37:06

throughout the last seven years,

37:11

eight years. So in terms of my

37:11

tools, I'm, you know, I'm a

37:14

Makita guy now, you know, and if

37:14

I could, if I could be a

37:17

festival guy, I would be a

37:17

festival guy, but I don't make

37:20

festival wages. So, you know,

37:20

I'm okay with Makita. And like,

37:25

but my claim to fame is paint.

37:25

If there's one thing that

37:28

everyone will talk about me,

37:28

they'll say two things. One is

37:31

radical politics, and paint. And

37:31

so throughout the last few

37:36

years, I have really tried to

37:36

perfect the way that I have used

37:42

to paint in my installations. I

37:42

generally use MDF, which is a

37:47

very heavy you know, compound

37:47

board made of like, you know,

37:53

wood debris and things like

37:53

that. But it's kind of like a

37:56

canvas. On its on. Its on its on

37:56

its flat factory edge. But on

38:01

the sides. It's really porous

38:01

and ugly, and a lot of what I do

38:05

I stack things. I just did an

38:05

installation for the Bellevue

38:12

Art Museum for their biennial of

38:12

the art architecture, but I know

38:16

that they didn't 21 And so it's

38:16

called l&r. It's which is short

38:22

for an altar to Anti Fascist

38:22

architecture. And it's fun. I

38:26

had so much fun, you know, doing

38:26

all this work.

38:31

You can find

38:31

Andrew Santa Lucia's work on

38:34

Office and or us at the website

38:34

a n d dash O r.us. When my

38:42

conversation with Andrew is

38:42

available on YouTube, I'll

38:45

update the notes. Thanks for

38:45

visiting tools for nomads and up

38:50

close and insightful look into

38:50

the lives and habits of

38:54

passionate and creatively

38:54

prolific professionals like

38:58

Andrew, Santa Lucia, who embrace

38:58

and cherish the nomadic

39:02

lifestyle. Be sure to subscribe,

39:02

like and comment wherever you're

39:06

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40:00

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