0:02

Here's a question

0:02

for you, and it relates to

0:06

today's episode. How old as a

0:06

process is pottery, which

0:10

essentially is the formation of

0:10

vessels and other objects using

0:15

clay and other raw materials

0:15

fired at high temperatures to

0:19

give them a hard and durable

0:19

form. When I started researching

0:24

today's interview with artist

0:24

extraordinaire, and potter Kevin

0:29

O'Keefe from Mississippi, I

0:29

honestly would have missed the

0:33

answer to that question of how

0:33

long pottery as a process has

0:38

been around by at least 15,000

0:38

years. Pottery is one of the

0:42

oldest human inventions, a

0:42

figurine discovered in the Czech

0:47

Republic dates back to 29,000

0:47

BCE. pottery vessels discovered

0:52

in China date back to 18,000

0:52

BCE, and pottery artifacts have

0:56

been found in Japan estimated to

0:56

be from about 10,500 vc. So

1:01

raise your hands if you answered

1:01

correctly. And congratulations.

1:06

Today's guest Kevin O'Keefe

1:06

probably knew the answer to that

1:11

question. Kevin not only keeps

1:11

an age old tradition alive

1:15

through his pottery and artwork,

1:15

but he makes useful and

1:20

beautiful tools like one of a

1:20

kind Saki cups, incense holders

1:24

candleholders, which are carried

1:24

in top drawer shops in the

1:29

United States. I'm Thom Pollard.

1:29

This is Tools For Nomads. Tools

1:34

For Nomads is brought to you by

1:34

Topdrawer. We'd love to know

1:38

where you're listening from

1:38

today. Please take a moment to

1:43

let us know so we can learn more

1:43

about you in this growing

1:47

community of like minded souls.

1:47

This describes Kevin O'Keeffe's

1:52

pottery, it's of iridescent

1:52

glazes with copper reds or

1:57

crystaline blues, they shimmer

1:57

through the micro crinkling of

2:01

various types of reflective

2:01

surfaces. Raindrops of molten

2:06

glaze are purposely frozen in

2:06

time like glass with a glow and

2:10

glisten and candlelight. Kevin

2:10

keeps alive the magical things

2:15

that can happen on a potter's

2:15

wheel. And then he tests every

2:20

conceivable limit of a kiln that

2:20

he built in his backyard, which

2:25

burns to temperatures of nearly

2:25

2000 degrees. Looking at his

2:29

work, I became interested in how

2:29

someone like Kevin becomes a

2:34

full time artist, why someone

2:34

would take that leap of faith

2:39

into a world where so many

2:39

artists struggle to survive.

2:43

During our interview, Kevin

2:43

talks often about his old friend

2:48

Andy, Andy or Andrew Jessup is

2:48

the man behind the magical and

2:52

illuminating design of the top

2:52

drawer shops. Also from

2:57

Mississippi, Andrew or Andy, as

2:57

Kevin calls him and Kevin go way

3:02

back. And their friendship, as

3:02

you will see is a big part of

3:06

Kevin's path toward becoming a

3:06

full time professional Potter.

3:11

And I didn't even know this was

3:11

possible. They actually melted

3:16

kilns, which are supposed to be

3:16

the furnaces that do the

3:20

melting, not the things that

3:20

actually melt themselves. Here's

3:25

my conversation with Kevin

3:25

O'Keefe from his home near the

3:29

Gulf coast of Mississippi. You

3:29

did talk about travel and hiking

3:34

up the east coast. So you did a

3:34

thru hike of the Appalachian

3:39

Trail. Do I have that? Correct?

3:39

That's a big part of your life.

3:44

Yeah, that was a

3:44

really big, really big change

3:47

for me. I will tie this back

3:47

into art. You know, in high

3:51

school, my teacher saw something

3:51

Joyce King, wonderful woman got

3:54

me, got me involved, got me into

3:54

college went through a number of

3:59

colleges where I developed my

3:59

skills. And at some point, I had

4:04

some really big failures. And

4:04

I'll call I'll call them

4:08

learning lessons. But I had lost

4:08

an entire year's worth of work

4:12

in one firing. And I was like, a

4:12

gun. I gave everything away. I

4:17

walked away and I went got a job

4:17

repairing cell phones if if you

4:22

can believe it, but I was really

4:22

good at fixing cell phones. Just

4:26

that real intricate, intricate

4:26

work, the detailed work, and I

4:30

did that for about 1212 plus

4:30

years. And it came down to I was

4:37

so frustrated with life because

4:37

I just inside me I wanted to be

4:41

an artist. I wanted to play

4:41

music. I didn't want to work,

4:45

you know under fluorescence. And

4:45

and I was telling my brother I

4:49

said look, I just I feel like I

4:49

have to get away from life. Like

4:52

the only way I can get out of

4:52

this ditch is just to sell

4:55

everything I own and and walk

4:55

away. And then he said You know,

5:00

he was an Eagle Scout,

5:00

outdoorsman sailor. And he goes,

5:04

Well, what about the Appalachian

5:04

Trail? You know, he's like 2200

5:08

miles long, 14 states, you have

5:08

safety in the trail. And it was

5:13

like, as soon as he said it, it

5:13

just settled in my soul. And I

5:16

was like, I have to do that. And

5:16

I think that was January 1. And

5:23

by March 3, with some miraculous

5:23

interventions, I was on trail.

5:29

And I had never even heard of it

5:29

before. I unboxed my water

5:33

filter on on Amicalola State

5:33

Park, trying to figure out how

5:38

to make it work. Like at the

5:38

first shelter, I'm like, How

5:40

does this you know, water pump?

5:40

changed, it changed my life. And

5:47

you know, we, we won't go into

5:47

that, because I'll talk about

5:49

that for weeks. But I came back,

5:49

I came back and I just said,

5:54

with this breath of life, and I

5:54

said, I don't want to go back to

5:58

work. I, I had a kiln, I had a

5:58

studio had the skill. And I just

6:04

I it's funny I had I had this

6:04

idea. I said, all I need to do

6:08

is get in 10 stores. So I get in

6:08

10 stores and I'm thinking I was

6:13

in the Ogden in New Orleans,

6:13

they carried my work for a

6:15

while. I had done some work with

6:15

MoMA, in New Orleans. And I just

6:20

figured out hit some galleries

6:20

and shops on the down here in

6:24

the southeast. And if I could

6:24

get 10 stores, a few pieces a

6:29

week out the door than I could

6:29

make my baseline to start

6:34

building and literally that

6:34

week, and he called me and he

6:38

goes, Hey, do you think you know

6:38

how to make Saki cuts? And then

6:42

I was like, it's just a little

6:42

cup, right? It's just a little

6:45

cut. And he goes, Well, look, we

6:45

got we got, I think I think it

6:49

was 1111 stores. And he goes,

6:49

start making some cuts. And

6:54

let's see what we got. And

6:54

that's when he introduced me to

6:57

top drawer. And it just seemed

6:57

again, like just divine

7:00

intervention. And here we are

7:00

today, you know, I think 14 or

7:05

15 stores in and just couldn't

7:05

be a better pick me up to life.

7:10

You know?

7:11

Wow, that's so

7:11

cool. I I knew the backstory of

7:15

that a little bit. But that

7:15

thank you for laying that out

7:18

there real quickly. So you did

7:18

the if you did the entire 80 and

7:23

I know that you did the 80

7:23

crosses above about 10 miles

7:26

away from where I live right

7:26

now. And so what was your trail

7:31

name, by the way?

7:33

It was good

7:33

pilgrim good pilgrims,

7:36

good pilgrims.

7:39

It started out as

7:39

pilgrim Yeah, everyone has their

7:42

story. But I was, you know, the

7:42

trip, obviously, because of my

7:46

worldview. I had this idea of

7:46

this miraculous, you know,

7:50

destiny, destiny. And so I was

7:50

telling the story, the similar

7:56

truths of the story of John

7:56

Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress,

8:01

which my father read to us when

8:01

we were kids, you know, the,

8:04

this colorful book version and,

8:04

and, you know, so the stories

8:08

always stuck in this journey,

8:08

right, this guy that begins this

8:11

journey, and, and I was telling

8:11

him the similar tudes of how I

8:15

felt my journey was coinciding

8:15

with with that story, that

8:19

childhood story. And everybody

8:19

was like, your pilgrim, your

8:23

pilgrim? Well, we're going up

8:23

the trail. And, you know,

8:28

everybody's like, what's your

8:28

trail name? Yeah. Pilgrim, and

8:31

they're like, Oh, you don't want

8:31

that trail? And I know, you're

8:34

like, really? No, you don't want

8:34

that? And we're like, why? And

8:36

you're like, well, there was,

8:36

you know, pilgrim that was

8:38

really bad. Out here. And, and

8:38

then we would go a little bit

8:42

further into the next town. You

8:42

know, I'm pilgrims, they're

8:45

like, oh, wait, no, like, No,

8:45

really. And, and every, every,

8:50

every time we would go a little

8:50

bit further, the story would

8:54

build and develop. And the next

8:54

thing you know, we were

8:58

literally in Damascus, quarter

8:58

quarter ways up mascus,

9:02

Virginia, and we walk into town.

9:02

And it was like, No, this is the

9:07

story. This guy pilgrim

9:07

literally, like a few years

9:12

before, messed with everybody,

9:12

to the point of, I think

9:18

threatening to to hurt people

9:18

during trail days, like mass

9:22

mass hurt. And he had he had

9:22

every law enforcement looking

9:27

for him like trying to find out

9:27

what his identity was because no

9:29

one knows like you just live by

9:29

trail names. So here I am, like,

9:33

on trail. I am pilgrim and then

9:33

and so then we just started

9:37

saying on pilgrim to good one

9:37

and mark my trail family at that

9:41

time was like no, this is

9:41

pilgrim the good one. And and

9:45

then you know, good pilgrim. So

9:45

but it ended after trail days

9:48

because the guy never made it

9:48

out of Damascus. I guess the

9:52

year he hiked, which was a few

9:52

years before me.

9:55

Epic trail name

9:55

story. Good pilgrim. Wow. That's

9:59

that's that's great. The back

9:59

story. Thanks,

10:01

Sharon and I, and

10:01

I always clarify, it doesn't

10:05

necessarily mean that I'm good.

10:05

I'm just not. I'm just not the

10:09

bad one. You better than the

10:09

other

10:11

one. So that's

10:11

good, right? So you do the you

10:14

do the 80, you come back and as

10:14

you had said, it was like some

10:19

intervention or something

10:19

happened, you get this phone

10:21

call from your friend, Andrew

10:21

Jessup, who for you know,

10:26

familiarity you have known as

10:26

Andy, life, buddy, Andy. And,

10:31

and boom, you're making Saki

10:31

cups for the top drawer stores.

10:35

And this might be a really cool

10:35

kind of way to jump into a

10:40

little bit of it. Because over

10:40

your left shoulder, I'm looking

10:43

at a kiln. The part about your

10:43

artwork, and the pottery you

10:47

make is that everything's

10:47

different. Oh, your stuff is so

10:51

unique. It's one of a kind. And

10:51

so is that how did you develop

10:57

that style? We can get back into

10:57

the Psaki cup so it's I suppose,

11:00

but how do you get started?

11:00

Well,

11:03

well, those are

11:03

two very, very different

11:06

questions. I don't know how I

11:06

became a potter. I know that in

11:10

high school, I took a lot of art

11:10

classes because I just didn't

11:14

enjoy the more brainier

11:14

activities. I did like history

11:18

and science and math, I, I was a

11:18

big struggle, school was a big

11:23

struggle. Come to find

11:23

socializing is a big struggle

11:27

for me. So so I just tried to

11:27

get in as many art classes and

11:32

gym classes and, and that I

11:32

could get in, and it was my

11:36

teacher that I say they had some

11:36

they had some pottery wheels in

11:39

the room, and no one ever

11:39

touched them. And I just said,

11:43

that looks intriguing. I'm gonna

11:43

give it a try. And I threw that,

11:47

that time in school, I threw

11:47

five pieces, which I still have

11:50

today. They're, they're boxed

11:50

up. And I mean, if you looked at

11:54

him, you'd be like, okay, yeah,

11:54

those, I don't know what you'd

11:56

think. But But yeah, like, I

11:56

threw five pieces. And she she

12:00

said, you know, you got like,

12:00

there's something here, there's

12:03

something here. And, and they,

12:03

my teacher conspired with my mom

12:09

behind my back, you know, to, to

12:09

collect all my work, and submit

12:14

it to a local college here,

12:14

William Carey. And, and they had

12:20

done that, I got awarded a very

12:20

big scholarship. And, and at

12:25

that point, it was like, no,

12:25

like, my parents were like,

12:28

you're going, you're going It's

12:28

either there or the military.

12:31

And, and that was not about to

12:31

happen. So So I went to went to

12:36

William Carey, and then it just,

12:36

it just developed, I took all

12:39

the different art classes,

12:39

sculptor sculpture, stone, wood

12:43

painting, graphic design,

12:43

pottery, but Clay was the one

12:50

was the one medium that just, I

12:50

just couldn't stop growing.

12:55

Like, I wanted to do everything,

12:55

like I feel like it's just, it's

12:59

the, it's the creative, this the

12:59

creative side of, of

13:02

individuals, I just got loaded

13:02

with it. And, and Clay Clay just

13:09

became so natural. With the

13:09

touch the texture, the way it

13:14

moves, the way you can capture

13:14

every little impression. No

13:19

other medium does that. And, and

13:19

that was before even the whole

13:25

kiln stuff like I only made all

13:25

through college, I only made

13:31

work. And I would allow like the

13:31

studio, the other studio

13:36

students to fire like they would

13:36

load the kilns and fire the

13:39

work. And so, so none of the

13:39

glazes none of the finishes were

13:44

never really impressive. It's

13:44

just whatever I threw on, but I

13:47

just really dove into the form

13:47

and how clay like what what the

13:53

limits of clay were, you know,

13:53

pushing the thinness, the

13:58

bigness, the, you know, the most

13:58

volume, and I would just lose my

14:04

fail rate was so high because I

14:04

would push clay to that limit.

14:08

And you never know the limit of

14:08

something until it breaks. And

14:12

so I would just constantly break

14:12

work, just to see what it could

14:16

do. And as the skills improved,

14:16

I got into a lot of trouble. You

14:23

know, I was I was troubled and

14:23

left William Carey for another

14:28

Baptist College, William Carey

14:28

was a Baptist College, I went to

14:32

Mississippi College where they

14:32

would accept all of my credits.

14:35

And it just it had to work that

14:35

way. And I was there for one

14:40

semester. And I was the only

14:40

ceramic student and out of 144

14:47

art students. I was the only

14:47

ceramic student and my buddy

14:50

Jonathan, who also is just a

14:50

beautiful individual. You'll

14:55

never know him because he's also

14:55

locked in the woods in north

14:59

Mississippi. And he's a

14:59

sculptor, he's the only sculptor

15:03

in the school. And so both of us

15:03

just, you know, kindred spirits

15:08

made work. Our professors gave

15:08

us the freedom to do what we

15:12

want. And so, so William Carey

15:12

was the first school they were,

15:16

they were more into formalism.

15:16

So it was, it was a, you know,

15:21

form over function form over

15:21

function. Then I went to

15:25

Mississippi College, where they

15:25

gave me the freedom to just test

15:29

those limits. And, and I did

15:29

that, well, the second semester,

15:35

they were telling me I had like,

15:35

two years of language and all

15:38

this music and choir, you know,

15:38

these, the secondary, the

15:42

secondary education. And, and

15:42

what I realized is like, not to

15:47

doubt them, because I felt like

15:47

my position is very rare. Most

15:52

people don't make it as artists,

15:52

you know, I think I think I'd

15:56

heard somewhere with no, you

15:56

know, just what I'd heard that,

15:59

like, less than 3% of

15:59

individuals that get a degree in

16:04

art will actually make a living

16:04

with that, with that degree. So

16:08

Mississippi College was giving

16:08

all their students a secondary

16:13

foundation to fall back on

16:13

teaching, or, you know, teaching

16:18

that's pretty much what they do.

16:18

And I said, I'm not going to

16:23

fail, like I'm, I want to be an

16:23

artist and, and I was two weeks

16:27

into the semester, and I dropped

16:27

out, ran down to southern

16:31

Southern Miss and Hattiesburg,

16:31

which was where Andy was, and

16:35

walked in, Kenny was like, my

16:35

junior Junior, you got two years

16:39

left, I was a super senior, five

16:39

year, five year artists and

16:43

rolled up into rolled up into

16:43

southern, and they were

16:47

completely conceptual, like

16:47

their entire art department was

16:52

hinged on this idea of just self

16:52

expression. And in your creating

16:58

a voice. And what I had

16:58

witnessed is they weren't giving

17:05

them the formalism, to build

17:05

upon the foundation of, of

17:10

material and tools and, and

17:10

aesthetics, it was just like,

17:15

you know, they would have the

17:15

project like found object,

17:21

political stance and nature, go

17:21

make something, you know, and so

17:26

then people would go out there

17:26

and just find junk laying on the

17:29

side of the roads and yarn bits,

17:29

and they would assemble these

17:33

things and, and then they would

17:33

like have to tell what this

17:36

thing is representing and all I

17:36

was looking at was just, you

17:39

know, a pile of sticks in yarn

17:39

and, and all that. Well, I had

17:44

come from two other schools that

17:44

gave me this training this

17:48

formalist training. And so then

17:48

when I interjected the

17:53

conceptual aspect, I No, no, you

17:53

know, it's just my words, but

17:58

my, my senior project body of

17:58

work was, in my opinion, just I

18:03

don't even know how I created

18:03

it. It's, it's so detailed and

18:08

meticulous. It's these massive

18:08

ceramic rings, that are

18:13

literally an eighth of an inch

18:13

10. These huge rings, with steel

18:18

rods running through them all

18:18

laid out in matte and

18:22

mathematically perfect formulas

18:22

that the 15th century painters

18:27

used to load the canvas of

18:27

hotspots. So so like Pierre, a

18:34

different Cheska. If I even say

18:34

his name, right? There's a piece

18:40

that I don't remember the name

18:40

of, but he spent two years

18:43

painting it. And he spent two

18:43

years loading the canvas with

18:47

mathematical hotspots before

18:47

paint ever touched the canvas.

18:52

And when I had solved that, in

18:52

my Italian Renaissance class, my

18:58

first thought was, how can I

18:58

apply this to sculpture? And,

19:02

and then that's when I created

19:02

this body of work. Well, what I

19:06

had realized was the writ just

19:06

the sheer retentiveness of

19:11

detail, that though it was very

19:11

impressive. It was just very

19:16

stale. Like the pieces are

19:16

impressive, but I was looking at

19:21

it and I was just like, it

19:21

looked like a machine made it

19:24

right. It just looked like like

19:24

I could make 100 more of them

19:28

identical because I was I was

19:28

that meticulous in in knowing my

19:34

material, knowing what I wanted

19:34

and going for it. And when I met

19:39

Andy, Andy was like, a massive

19:39

influence in my in my life. Like

19:45

when I met Andy. He was just

19:45

like, he loved clay. And he just

19:50

expressed himself with these

19:50

just, gigantic, almost creature

19:58

ask him To tease and, and I was

19:58

just like I learned a lot, I

20:04

couldn't deal with it, I

20:04

couldn't handle it. And, and so

20:09

we got out of school, long story

20:09

a little less long, we come down

20:14

to the coast, he moves down to

20:14

the coast, we had no plan, like

20:18

I had no idea what he was doing.

20:18

He just came down to the coast,

20:22

opened up a little gallery of

20:22

beautiful little space. And we

20:28

started building kilns because

20:28

he was the guy that fired the

20:31

kilns to go back, he was the guy that

20:33

fired the kills at Southern so

20:36

he was firing my work, and I was

20:36

making the work. So we both

20:41

moved down. We start building

20:41

kilns, he starts teaching me

20:44

about how to fire you know, the

20:44

oxidation reduction. And, and,

20:49

and he, we we melted kiln after

20:49

kiln we had we build these

20:55

little you can see them if you

20:55

look at electric conversion,

21:00

electric to gas conversion kiln,

21:00

people take the electrics, I

21:04

think we're all familiar with

21:04

the no got the electronics,

21:07

throw in inlet and outlet flue,

21:07

and you just plug a burner in

21:12

there. And if even if you don't

21:12

know what you're doing, like,

21:15

you'll hit temperature, like

21:15

you'll hit something,

21:18

something's gonna melt. And so

21:18

we probably melted, eight, eight

21:23

counts. And every time we would

21:23

kill the kiln, we would just

21:26

build a bigger and a better one.

21:26

And we started building I got I

21:30

got documentations of all of our

21:30

kilns that we built, just insane

21:34

little projects, half of them

21:34

never worked, all of them had

21:37

problems. But that's, that's

21:37

kind of my entire backstory of

21:42

just coming to this place of, of

21:42

just being being an artist

21:46

working with my hands loving

21:46

clay, the the individual

21:51

expression came from a single

21:51

piece. But the first body of

21:55

work I showed with Andy, I would

21:55

throw these multiple pieces,

22:00

this one behind me I think is

22:00

made out of three or four

22:02

pieces. And then I assembled

22:02

them together. So I would throw

22:06

a bass that was just looked like

22:06

a bowl, and then I would throw a

22:11

like a cylinder. And then I

22:11

would collapse the cylinder. And

22:16

then I would throw other

22:16

cylinders to go on top of that.

22:19

And then once they set up, I

22:19

would assemble them so that they

22:22

looked like these long, tall

22:22

pieces that just would squat and

22:28

crumble. And, and the most

22:28

pleasing way like the folds of

22:33

the clay just looks like fabric,

22:33

you know, fabric might twist.

22:38

And I just fell in love with

22:38

this body of work. That was my

22:41

first body of work. And then

22:41

came the goat. And the goat is

22:45

one piece, I had this idea, you

22:45

know, this piece had all these

22:50

folds in it, I packed all of our

22:50

kills or salt kills, which

22:55

again, I'll get into we induce

22:55

salt into the kiln and that

22:57

creates a very appealing surface

22:57

texture. But I had this wild

23:04

idea that I'm going to pack salt

23:04

into the folds of the piece. And

23:09

so I put this thing in the kiln

23:09

big beautiful, perfect

23:13

meticulous piece exactly what I

23:13

wanted it to be. And I fired it.

23:19

And the entire thing just melts

23:19

to pieces like not to pieces,

23:24

but just like melts down. And

23:24

you see these channels were salt

23:29

liquefied, and all its highs,

23:29

the clay into these rivers and

23:34

channels. And then like the

23:34

plates were which had these

23:37

flowing soft folds were just, it

23:37

looked like plate tectonics just

23:42

ripping apart, like scales and

23:42

some sort of like dinosaur

23:46

creature like, insane. And I was

23:46

so upset. I was so heartbroken.

23:53

I like just ruined my piece. And

23:53

I call Andy up, he's living in

23:58

the gallery, and he's living his

23:58

gallery at Cosmo and I said,

24:02

Eddie, I ruin this piece, you

24:02

know, the big beautiful piece

24:05

and he goes, bring it back. I

24:05

brought it over. And I'm like

24:09

just distraught. And he's just

24:09

looking at it. And he's like,

24:13

just just look at it a little

24:13

longer. And I just stopped

24:17

talking, just started watching

24:17

it and started looking at it.

24:21

And all of a sudden it was just

24:21

this instant understanding of

24:26

the desire to continue to look

24:26

at it, where the other work I'd

24:30

made. It was just like I made it

24:30

and it was gone. Like I could do

24:34

it again and what it didn't

24:34

impress me. But all of a sudden

24:38

this piece had its own identity

24:38

that I didn't make I didn't

24:43

create like it was it's almost

24:43

like I was just honored to be a

24:47

part of the development but it

24:47

ultimately, you know, this piece

24:51

like it ultimately became what

24:51

it wanted to be. And then when I

24:56

opened the kiln like I had no

24:56

idea what to expect So my

25:01

expectations were crushed. Andy,

25:01

you know, my, my guide at the

25:07

time, and probably forever, he

25:07

was like, just just take it,

25:12

give it a minute. And it was

25:12

that it was that piece that then

25:18

created an entire new direction

25:18

of work where I'd started just

25:23

loading these pieces with any

25:23

type I like the salt is a big

25:27

thing, but I would, you know,

25:27

fire faster, I would fire

25:31

hotter, I would, I would do

25:31

anything I could to get the

25:36

piece to just say something. And

25:36

that was my artwork. And that

25:40

was that was my art. And, and

25:40

then to finalize that, that

25:45

first question, this this style,

25:45

this overall style, that's all I

25:51

made was sculptures. And when

25:51

Andy said, Hey, do you want to

25:56

make Saki cups, I had a deep a

25:56

deep disdain for production

26:02

pottery, I could never imagine

26:02

myself being like, you know,

26:07

this little machine, just like

26:07

pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, I

26:12

couldn't do it, I couldn't do

26:12

it. And I said, Well, if I'm

26:16

going to make production work,

26:16

you know, the mugs, mugs, and,

26:20

and Saki cups, and whatever, I

26:20

want each piece to at least have

26:25

some sort of individual

26:25

identity, you know, as it

26:29

should. And so what I ended up

26:29

creating was a process. And it

26:35

was that process that gave the

26:35

work, the ability to, to have

26:40

its own voice. And, you know,

26:40

every cup is identical, they're

26:44

all one or two inches, they all

26:44

got mouths and walls and feet.

26:49

But look at look at the identity

26:49

of humans, like we all have,

26:53

every one of us has the same

26:53

assets, for the most part. But

26:58

once you open your mouth, once

26:58

you walk, once you cook eggs,

27:02

like whatever you do, like

27:02

you're going to lose that. And

27:05

so these pieces, these pieces

27:05

are, to me this, like they're

27:10

their own little entities,

27:10

they're these own little people,

27:13

their own little

27:13

characteristics. And in that I

27:19

have to celebrate what most

27:19

people consider flows. I look at

27:23

I see people see my work, and

27:23

they go, Oh, what happened to

27:27

that thing? You know, like, Did

27:27

it fall? Did it break did it

27:30

whatever, you know, and that's,

27:30

that's a big response. From my

27:35

work. And, and in reality, like,

27:35

Isn't that how a lot of people

27:40

look at humans, like we look at

27:40

people with mental disabilities,

27:44

or physical abnormalities, and,

27:44

and, or awkwardness or whatever

27:49

and, and we want to, we want to

27:49

highlight those things and be

27:54

like, that's a problem. But it's

27:54

like, if we all got rid of

27:59

everything that we called it an

27:59

abnormality, or a disability, we

28:05

would all look like the same,

28:05

there would be nothing special.

28:09

And so through this body of

28:09

work, I've learned, you know,

28:13

it's taught me to, to celebrate

28:13

those those characteristics that

28:19

you have that you think are

28:19

flaws, because that's what makes

28:22

you unique, and new and

28:22

individual. And I think the work

28:26

speaks for itself. Like, I've

28:26

maybe never said this to anyone

28:30

before, especially publicly. But

28:30

I think when people see my work,

28:35

you probably don't like 95% of

28:35

what you look at. But then

28:40

there's that one, where you're

28:40

like, This is my cup, this is my

28:45

cup, and it just connects with

28:45

you.

28:47

I get it, it's

28:47

really good. It it's like I

28:50

learned I feel like I understand

28:50

the the genesis of this whole

28:57

evolution of how you arrived at

28:57

this and you're not you're not

29:02

fully arrived, I mean, this is a

29:02

process and 10 years you might

29:05

be a whole different guy, a

29:05

different artist and everything

29:09

kind of one of the essences a

29:09

part of what we're endeavoring

29:12

to do in this podcast and and in

29:12

these interviews is talk about

29:16

these these skills and are

29:16

preserving them or at least

29:20

giving life to these skills that

29:20

have been passed down through

29:24

generations. So you you said

29:24

something back kind of in the

29:29

beginning of this explanation

29:29

that that you and Andy started

29:33

building kilns and testing a

29:33

small ones and taking the

29:38

electronics out of one and you

29:38

know putting an air vent in it

29:42

and you know, putting a flame

29:42

into one side and and you and

29:47

you melted kiln. So, for the

29:47

person listening or watching the

29:53

idea of melting a kiln, the kiln

29:53

is supposed to be the thing that

29:57

does the melting or at least

29:57

right The other eight. So you

30:01

actually over you, you got the

30:01

kiln so hot that the whole thing

30:06

just melted out. So how does it

30:06

get too hot? And this is you're

30:12

not going to expect this one. So

30:12

how many times has the fire

30:15

department been called on you

30:15

for melting a kiln or blowing

30:18

flames out the top of the kill.

30:18

When me

30:21

and Andy were

30:21

building kilns, we had these

30:23

little octagon ifd kilns were

30:23

thrown together, throw some pots

30:28

in there, stick a stick a burner

30:28

in there, and just melt

30:32

everything. And all we cared

30:32

about was the work like the kiln

30:37

is a tool I'm not selling a kiln

30:37

on that, you know, I don't care

30:41

about killing the inside shell

30:41

is heartbreak. So it can

30:45

withstand the heat that and the

30:45

force of elements we're putting

30:49

in there. The if the outside of

30:49

the kiln is IFP, so it's like,

30:54

more for insulating because you

30:54

could not stand next to that

30:57

thing. If it was just a

30:57

heartbreak, it would radiate so

31:02

much heat, you would literally

31:02

just, you couldn't do it like

31:05

you'd have to have special suits

31:05

so so the inside shell is to

31:08

protect the kiln, the outside

31:08

shell is to insulate the outside

31:13

shells to insulate the incense.

31:13

So it's a physics it's a physics

31:18

game. It's just it's an act of

31:18

love to come out here and to

31:23

fire this thing. And I always

31:23

say it's, it's probably like in

31:27

to drive in a rally car. You

31:27

know, those like rally cars

31:30

where you're just running in

31:30

circles in a mud pit, just

31:33

running and everything like

31:33

that's what it's like to fire

31:36

this kiln.

31:38

You're listening

31:38

to my May 2023 interview with

31:41

Kevin O'Keefe from his home and

31:41

pottery studio in Mississippi.

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the stores, please let them know

32:32

you listen to the podcast. Now

32:32

back to my conversation with

32:37

Kevin O'Keefe. So when you put

32:37

that whatever your pot or the

32:45

Saki cup or your product into

32:45

the to the kiln, the process of

32:51

heating it really hot hardens it

32:51

and then what usually melts kind

32:56

of a glaze on the outside is Is

32:56

there some chemical reaction

33:01

happening? Or is it big? Like

33:01

what how the hell does it go

33:04

from something you can squish

33:04

between your fingers to, you

33:07

know, something you could, you

33:07

know, keep it for 100 years on a

33:10

shelf and use it?

33:12

Yeah, that would

33:12

be a really great question to

33:16

research on Google. From some

33:16

more, some more, I don't know I

33:27

know what works. I know it

33:27

works. I know it works in a

33:32

very, very layman type term.

33:32

Yes, Clay Clay is clay and

33:40

glaze. So Clay as your your

33:40

structure that you're building

33:44

upon glaze is the finish. And at

33:44

some point in history, they said

33:50

all clay needs a finish. So you

33:50

can fire just raw clay and have

33:55

had just this raw rough piece of

33:55

clay. But but at some point they

34:00

said it needs a surface finish.

34:00

And that could be as simple as a

34:04

single material that that melts

34:04

at a lower point and then it

34:09

coats the surface. So Clay is

34:09

primary clay and glaze are made

34:14

of silica it's a silica felts

34:14

are in a clay, like a ball clay.

34:21

And the way I think of the way I

34:21

see it is silica itself melts at

34:27

3000 degrees like and that's

34:27

that's sand like sand on the

34:31

beach down here, we got a lot of

34:31

sand that sand. If you put it in

34:35

a kiln, it will not melt, you

34:35

know because you just can't get

34:39

that hot. So they have to add a

34:39

fluxing agent, which is like a

34:43

feldspar and various flexes that

34:43

they have. And they're ticularly

34:49

designed to have specific

34:49

melting points. So those fluxes

34:54

help aid in the melting of the

34:54

silica so that the silica melts

34:59

into glass And then that glass,

34:59

you know flows in between the,

35:05

the little clay particles Be it

35:05

a ball clay, which is more of a

35:09

user like microscopic levels,

35:09

little round balls that are

35:13

just, you know, tightly matrix

35:13

together and if gaps versus

35:16

porcelain, which, which is a

35:16

plate like it's a plate like

35:22

substrate. And so you get these

35:22

very tight forms. And that's why

35:28

porcelain you can get, if you

35:28

fire it right like you can make

35:32

it translucent, you know,

35:32

because those platelets will

35:34

align perfect. And you know,

35:34

it's just a beautiful clay. But

35:39

clay and glaze plate, clay and

35:39

glaze are nearly the same

35:45

materials, except in clay, you

35:45

have more ball clay, less

35:51

silica, and less flux. And then

35:51

with glaze, you have little to

35:57

no ball clay, and you have a lot

35:57

of silica and then a lot of

36:01

flux. So it's all the same

36:01

material. The kiln like I said,

36:07

the kiln is the same material as

36:07

the Saki cups, except the level

36:12

of clay to to flux to glaze to

36:12

glass is different. So that you

36:18

raise that melting temperature,

36:18

the melting point. So these

36:22

bricks aren't going to melt.

36:22

Some years ago, when we first

36:26

had this kiln built, I had a met

36:26

a buddy down the road, he asked

36:30

that bring some pottery, we'll

36:30

fill this count out, he brought

36:33

stuff that he'd made like 20

36:33

years ago, 10 or 20 years ago

36:36

from college. And we put like 50

36:36

of his pieces in the kiln. And

36:41

they were like, Oh 15 Like the

36:41

range the range of numbers that

36:46

goes from odd numbers to one to

36:46

two to 10. Like that direction.

36:50

He is like it was like oh five

36:50

clay or Oh 15 clay like it was

36:54

super low clay. It turned a

36:54

lava, it turned a lava in my

36:59

kiln and hit every one of his

36:59

cups melted into a pool of lava

37:04

and just rained through the

37:04

entire kiln and about killed

37:08

him. I was like, like you,

37:08

you'll be lucky if you ever set

37:12

foot in my guild again. But

37:12

we're really, really good

37:15

friends. I got some really

37:15

interesting work I got mugged in

37:21

the lava rain into the mug

37:21

filled it up. And so it was a

37:25

perfect, beautiful mug. And it

37:25

looked like it was just filled

37:29

with coffee like this glazed

37:29

coffee. Totally useless. Except

37:34

for except for the expressive,

37:34

expressive quality.

37:37

That's what you

37:37

get for putting his stuff on the

37:40

top. You could have put him on the bottom.

37:42

Well, yeah,

37:42

that's what I get for telling

37:45

them that they better be sure.

37:45

Like, you're like, I'm very

37:48

clear. I'm very careful. Now if

37:48

I let anyone in the kitchen,

37:51

like I tell him like, you better

37:51

make sure

37:53

we've got the how

37:53

it happens and how you got to

37:58

this place and all and you have

37:58

elaborated a lot on on this

38:03

creative process and, and what's

38:03

going on and, and you really do

38:07

put your heart and soul into it

38:07

a little bit. It's kind of like

38:11

when people are painting if

38:11

they're a painter or playing

38:14

guitar or something. It's like

38:14

you're you do you go into this

38:19

zone? Are you? Is this? Do all

38:19

outside distractions fade away?

38:27

Is there do you put on symphony?

38:27

Or do you put on like thrash

38:31

metal or you listen to the

38:31

birds? Like, what what's

38:35

happening with the soul of Kevin

38:35

O'Keefe and through this

38:39

artistic process? Or is is there

38:39

just a you in the cosmos? What

38:45

what happens?

38:46

Man? That's

38:46

that's a that's a very, very,

38:49

very good question. So, so for

38:49

me, there is some elements that

38:56

I can't work with music, I love

38:56

working with music. That's why I

39:01

don't record much, you know,

39:01

it's because I can't record and

39:05

have music I guess because of

39:05

copyright laws. So I just choose

39:08

not to record because I really

39:08

need that that you know that

39:13

that flow in my ear? The rhythm.

39:13

And so I think where I think one

39:19

thing is that you're maybe

39:19

hitting on is this idea of

39:21

inspiration like where do you

39:21

get that inspiration to get in

39:25

and to make and I think it's

39:25

less about the inspiration and

39:32

more about like a bio rhythm.

39:32

Like we all have this bio rhythm

39:37

that that we live by. Most

39:37

people like you don't ever even

39:41

really notice it. But when it

39:41

comes to to some really detail

39:47

and and hyper timed activities

39:47

like golf, racquetball tennis,

39:54

pottery timing is it makes all

39:54

All The Difference, and our bio,

40:02

our bodies have this natural

40:02

tempo. And so somedays, like you

40:06

come out here to work, and you

40:06

know, everything could be right.

40:09

But if that bio rhythms off,

40:09

like, you're just, you just

40:13

can't do it, like, you can throw

40:13

a pot, but you're just not in

40:16

it. And you're not in that flow

40:16

state that you were talking

40:20

about. But then there's those

40:20

magical moments where, where the

40:25

timing is on the breathing is on

40:25

the wheel, the movement, and,

40:30

and, and you just, you just in

40:30

it, and at that point, it really

40:36

just comes down to knowing the

40:36

material. And, and so, the clay,

40:41

I say I'm a potter, so the clay

40:41

is the most important element,

40:46

you know, in connection to who I

40:46

am and my hands as the tools. So

40:52

when I start throwing, it could

40:52

take literally, you know, a few

40:58

hours before I get into that

40:58

state, because you're just

41:03

you're just kind of hashing

41:03

through it getting the feel

41:06

you're learning the clay. If I

41:06

have a new clay body, it will

41:11

easily take me 100 pounds

41:11

before. Before I know, I feel I

41:17

know the clay, like as a

41:17

relationship. And so right now,

41:22

a lot of the work you're seeing

41:22

in these videos that I sent you,

41:25

they're all in the biscuit and

41:25

just hanging out, ready to get

41:28

fired, ready to get this to go

41:28

through that conversion state

41:31

that goes through that

41:31

conversion from clay into a

41:34

hardened vitrified stone. And

41:34

that's called quartz conversion.

41:39

But for me that that clay that

41:39

I'm using, I'm only 50 pounds

41:44

in, and I'm still just

41:44

struggling with it just you

41:48

know, every now and again, you

41:48

get these moments where you you

41:51

just have that connection. But

41:51

then there's others where it

41:55

just fights you along the way

41:55

and it's like I don't want to

41:57

play I don't want to

41:57

participate. Leave me alone. And

42:01

of course, it's just mud, you

42:01

know, it's all in my head. So

42:05

that state of mind is very

42:05

important. But I find that it

42:09

has more to do with you know

42:09

this idea of a bio rhythm. And,

42:15

and for me, I have discovered a

42:15

way to test it to see if I'm on

42:20

time. And that technique is

42:20

called Tap centering. I was

42:25

taught tap centering by Peter

42:25

Anderson, John Anderson, Peter

42:30

Anderson son who owns he's the

42:30

the next in line to the Anderson

42:37

pottery here on the coast, world

42:37

renowned Potter. He taught me

42:42

how to tap center on a jigger

42:42

where that making jigger where

42:46

so that's like pie plates and

42:46

dishes using the arm that just

42:49

pumps them out. And then when

42:49

you go to trim, you set the

42:52

piece on the wheel and the wheel

42:52

spinning because you're you're

42:55

in production, you don't want to

42:55

stop, you got to keep moving. So

42:58

the wheel stood and you put the

42:58

pot down, and then it's moving

43:01

because you can't set it

43:01

centered. And then you just

43:04

start counting that movement. So

43:04

the pots just rolling, rolling

43:09

on the wheel, and you're just

43:09

looking at it. And you're just

43:11

like 1234 And then you have to

43:11

pop it and you pop it just right

43:18

to get it to knock a little

43:18

closer to center. If that exact

43:23

moment in time that it needs to

43:23

be pop, it's a very rare place

43:27

to be is on time as a potter.

43:27

And so knowing that by rhythm or

43:33

having that feeling. It's just

43:33

something I don't know. I'd

43:38

imagine you learn it just by

43:38

doing it. You know, you practice

43:40

it practice makes perfect. But

43:40

for me, I did it with the

43:45

Anderson's he taught me and I

43:45

just I had it. I figured it out.

43:50

Very important. Very, very great

43:50

question. The flow state. It's

43:55

very rare. I'll just say it's

43:55

very rare, especially here in

43:59

South Mississippi working can be

43:59

very, very grueling because the

44:04

heat you know this, I have an

44:04

open air studio, these doors

44:07

stay open. And so it'll get over

44:07

100 degrees in there. And I'm

44:11

just sweating from head to toe

44:11

and maybe one day I'll save up

44:16

for an AC but for now like I

44:16

love the natural love being the

44:24

most natural that I can in this

44:24

environment. And I don't want to

44:28

change that which means the only

44:28

thing I can do is to move out by

44:31

you Andy keep saying he's gonna

44:31

build me a kiln so

44:35

Okay, well that's

44:35

it then let's let's hold them to

44:38

it. To see Kevin's work in

44:38

person walk into any top drawer

44:43

shop and you'll find his unique

44:43

and one of a kind sakeI cups,

44:47

incense burners and candle

44:47

holders. They are exquisite. Be

44:51

sure to pick several of them up

44:51

and see how different and unique

44:55

they are. You can visit Kevin's

44:55

website at Kevin John okeefe.com

45:01

Or check out his YouTube channel

45:01

at Kevin John OKeefe. These

45:05

links will be in the show notes

45:05

as well. Thanks for visiting

45:11

tools for nomads an intimate

45:11

look into the lives and habits

45:15

of passionate and creatively

45:15

prolific people like Kevin

45:19

O'Keefe. Wherever you're

45:19

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45:23

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45:23

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46:09

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46:16

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46:16

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