0:00

In many conversations I've had, especially with women come back

0:02

to the stack that often this

0:06

person will have a first choice

0:06

like Oh, I think tonight for

0:09

dinner I would love to make spring rolls. But the moment the first choice thought comes up,

0:11

she overrides it with Oh, but my

0:13

family prefers spaghetti like

0:13

every first choice is

0:16

immediately suspect and

0:16

discarded, in part because it is

0:20

a first choice because it feels

0:20

selfish, but like for all sorts

0:23

of reasons that are hidden and

0:23

generations old. That isn't that

0:26

interesting, though, that, that

0:26

the first choice feels like

0:29

something that is dangerous.

0:36

Let's face it,

0:36

life is hectic, there's a lot of

0:40

static and radio interference

0:40

out there so many loud and

0:44

confusing things vying for our

0:44

attention. It's a testament to

0:48

the incredible capacity of the

0:48

human mind, to filter through

0:53

the chaos, and actually find a

0:53

way to focus on things and

0:57

accomplish specific goals and

0:57

tasks. As a person who probably

1:01

should have been diagnosed with

1:01

ADHD when I was a little kid. I

1:06

can't even imagine what kind of

1:06

distractions I would have found

1:11

in a cell phone, tick tock and

1:11

YouTube. Sometimes we need a

1:15

little help, a little

1:15

inspiration. And that's where

1:19

today's guest, Elisabeth Sharp

1:19

McKetta comes in. She's written

1:23

an extraordinary book called

1:23

edit your life and inspiring

1:27

guide to focusing on what

1:27

matters most in life and hitting

1:32

Delete on what doesn't. That's

1:32

coming up on tools for nomads.

1:36

I'm Thom Pollard. This is tools

1:36

for nomads, where we meet

1:40

inspiring, value oriented

1:40

passionate individuals, people

1:44

driven by their creativity,

1:44

their insatiable curiosity and

1:49

drive to learn and reveal the

1:49

answers to life's big questions.

1:53

Tools for nomads is brought to

1:53

you by top drawer, and we want

1:58

to learn about you and grow a

1:58

community of like minded people.

2:02

So wherever you're listening or

2:02

watching, I hope you'll comment

2:07

and tell us where you are today.

2:07

Elisabeth Sharp McKetta author

2:11

and storyteller teaches writing

2:11

for Harvard Extension School,

2:16

and Oxford department for

2:16

continuing education. She's the

2:20

author of a dozen books,

2:20

including her recent release,

2:24

edit your life, her book shares

2:24

simple ways to cut through the

2:28

clutter, the drama, the

2:28

abundance of distractions of

2:32

modern life to live with more

2:32

intention and joy. She should

2:37

know Elisabeth and her husband,

2:37

James stead once sold everything

2:41

they owned, and moved into a

2:41

tiny house in Idaho with two

2:45

children. My conversation with

2:45

Elisabeth comes at a great time

2:50

for me personally, as a lifelong

2:50

journal writer, I've promised

2:54

myself to complete the

2:54

manuscript of a book by the end

2:58

of this year. And I said that

2:58

last year to in our recent

3:03

conversation, I wanted to talk

3:03

to Elisabeth about not only her

3:07

book, but the practice and habit

3:07

of journaling, and how it can

3:12

help us zero in on our

3:12

priorities, and the things that

3:16

matter in our lives. to

3:16

declutter, if you will, you

3:19

will, here's my conversation

3:19

with Elisabeth Sharp McKetta

3:23

from her home. Elisabeth, let's

3:23

start with telling me about your

3:28

new book.

3:29

Thank you. Here's the book, here's a picture of it. It's called edit

3:30

your life. And before we talk

3:34

about it at all, we should all

3:34

collectively Perish the guilt

3:36

about the things we've not read.

3:36

Because there's a wonderful

3:41

Walter Benjamin quote about a

3:41

collector who invited like a

3:44

young reader into his library.

3:44

And the young reader said, if

3:47

you read all these books, and

3:47

looked around all the four

3:50

walls, and the book collector

3:50

said not 1/10 of them do you use

3:54

with fine china every day. And I

3:54

feel like sometimes, you know,

3:57

there's so many good books in the world, and there are times for them. But it's not always

3:59

today. And right now. So take

4:02

your time with this book and any

4:02

book and I will do the same

4:04

because I feel like I know that

4:04

readers guilt and it is a

4:07

terrible thing.

4:09

Thank you for that

4:09

I needed that. Okay.

4:12

But love the book. So the book is wonderful. The book is a

4:14

handbook. The subtitle is a

4:17

handbook for living with

4:17

intention in a messy world. And

4:21

it takes the editing steps that

4:21

that writers know to edit

4:25

anything from a poem, a book, a

4:25

packing list, and it looks at

4:30

ways that we can apply them to

4:30

life, even though it is an

4:34

ongoing open book. And it's

4:34

currently actually the companion

4:37

book for an eight week course

4:37

that um, people are meeting

4:40

weekly to just go through and

4:40

just go through the steps and

4:43

try them out and talk about

4:43

them. So it really does feel

4:45

like a like a guide.

4:47

Wow, that is

4:47

absolutely incredible. So

4:50

because the reason I originally

4:50

reached out to you was to talk

4:54

about that idea. Well, we've

4:54

talked many times before this,

4:57

but to talk about the NIT of

4:57

journaling, and how it can kind

5:03

of open up these untapped

5:03

resources within us. And on a

5:07

slight side note, I, I've been

5:07

into these videos lately on

5:11

YouTube about near death

5:11

experiences and nd ease. And

5:15

there's tons of them. This is

5:15

the thing, right? And so this

5:18

one woman who had a near death

5:18

experience when she was 19, it

5:23

didn't really change her life

5:23

until she started writing about

5:27

it. And she said, once you

5:27

started writing, it was as if

5:30

she uncovered these portals or

5:30

open portals into these realms

5:36

that she had never really

5:36

investigated, and it completely

5:40

transformed her life. So the

5:40

idea of journaling in this this

5:44

editing your life, is it

5:44

literally just putting pen to

5:48

paper kind of thing? So what's

5:48

the, what's the nitty gritty in

5:51

there? And how can it help us

5:53

write I love this. And that gives me goosebumps, the thought of this,

5:55

this woman discovering how she

5:58

really felt about something like

5:58

that only through writing. And

6:01

that feels really intuitive. I

6:01

think a lot, I can't remember

6:04

whose quote it is, but the I

6:04

write to figure out what I have

6:06

to say is something that I've

6:06

certainly identified with, and

6:10

that I know a lot of my students

6:10

have not known how they felt

6:13

about an experience, or a

6:13

political issue or a

6:16

conversation until they've done

6:16

some writing about it. And all

6:19

of a sudden, the writing does

6:19

bring for things that are deeper

6:22

than you thought and connects

6:22

things that you didn't know,

6:24

were connected. And there's a

6:24

term that my students and I use

6:27

that comes up in the book as

6:27

well called close reading, which

6:30

you probably remember from,

6:30

like, terrible tests in high

6:34

school where they're like, here's a passage from Great Gatsby, what is it about? You're

6:36

like, oh, no, I should have had

6:38

more coffee, I should have

6:38

gotten more sleep. But the goal

6:42

of that is to sort of think

6:42

about what in these, you know,

6:44

if we can press on these small

6:44

surface specific things, is

6:50

there something deeper it tells

6:50

us about the world that it's

6:52

coming from, and is that I think

6:52

that's something we can very

6:55

much do in our life, that if

6:55

there's, I can think of moments

6:58

where a certain conversation

6:58

just sent me reeling. And it was

7:00

nothing, it was nothing that

7:00

anyone else can identify. But I

7:03

knew that it related to a button

7:03

that was created three years

7:07

ago, when you know, like, I can

7:07

look below it the emotions and

7:11

figure out what it tells me

7:11

about my life and my

7:14

vulnerabilities and what I what

7:14

I need to heal, essentially. And

7:19

so. So I think writing helps

7:19

with everything. And I think

7:23

journaling helps with

7:23

everything. And in this book, it

7:26

suggests in the very beginning

7:26

that people do the book with a

7:29

journal, because each chapter

7:29

has about seven or eight, what I

7:33

call life, edit prompts, just

7:33

sort of try this on your life,

7:36

see how it works. And they

7:36

should absolutely be written

7:39

about a term that my students

7:39

and I talked about is having

7:41

compost, which is a, an image, I

7:41

have no right to use, because

7:45

I'm not a gardener. But I love

7:45

this idea that if we just throw

7:49

into a single file, whether it's

7:49

a journal or whether it's I keep

7:51

my journal on, on Microsoft

7:51

Word, if we just throw into it,

7:55

any number of things that just

7:55

may grow sprouts, eventually,

7:58

once we reread them and think,

7:58

Oh, you have something to teach

8:01

me, then it's just a, it's just

8:01

a container for all this

8:04

loveliness, and all this

8:04

miscellaneous, you know, all

8:07

these miscellaneous thoughts. So

8:07

absolutely, I think that in the

8:10

in edit your life, certainly

8:10

that by doing it with a journal

8:14

and just reflecting on a simple

8:14

question. So for example, I'll

8:17

read from from chapter one. So

8:17

the first so the book is divided

8:20

into three sections, which to me

8:20

feel like a really good order of

8:25

how to edit. So in editing

8:25

anything in writing, and again,

8:28

I think this is something that

8:28

writers who are listening might

8:31

think of their experience with

8:31

workshop that most writers who

8:35

get feedback, there's one way to do it, where you send it to a trusted friend and say, Tom,

8:37

would you give this a read? Here's some things I'm trying to

8:38

do. And Tom's like, oh,

8:41

Elizabeth, I think the beginning

8:41

needs to go. But the story

8:43

really starts on page five or

8:43

whatever. Often students in

8:46

school will workshop in groups

8:46

of 15. Usually, that's about the

8:48

number 18. And the they'll all

8:48

fling their opinions at the

8:52

writer in question, which, even

8:52

though it's the standard way to

8:55

do it, is a way that terrifies

8:55

me. Because you've got 14 People

8:59

with come with their own

8:59

agendas, and their own rights

9:03

and wrongs and their own fears

9:03

about writing and their own

9:05

opinions about writing, flinging

9:05

their opinions, you know, before

9:10

the other guy gets to speak at

9:10

this poor writer who often is

9:12

not allowed to speak, who just

9:12

wrote this thing and wants to

9:15

get it to good. So I think the

9:15

writer often feels like sort of

9:17

assaulted and like pulled in all

9:17

directions. And so and I just

9:21

find that such a scary way to do

9:21

it. And again, many people love

9:25

it. And many people who take my classes are like, Why don't you do that? Because it is it works

9:26

for some people. But for me,

9:29

I've always found that I don't

9:29

have the I don't really have the

9:31

bandwidth for more than two or

9:31

three good readers at a time. I

9:35

just can't take opinions. And

9:35

that idea of having a few

9:38

trusted friends which again, the

9:38

the welcome suggest me or maybe

9:41

do this with a trusted friend

9:41

who maybe is in your family or

9:43

maybe someone who is a neutral

9:43

force and doesn't have opinions

9:47

on if you you know edit by

9:47

waking up earlier. Does that

9:50

throw the family dynamics into

9:50

disarray, someone who really

9:52

doesn't care, but who could who

9:52

cares about you and who could

9:54

hear you out? But if we if we

9:54

sort of edit things in small

9:58

groups, we can really Other

9:58

Mother each other is next and

10:02

lives. And we have the bandwidth

10:02

to to ask what I think of are

10:06

really the only three questions

10:06

to edit anything, which is what

10:09

the the first chapter of this

10:09

book is that goes along. The

10:12

three questions that I think we

10:12

must ask before flinging our

10:14

opinions are, what is this?

10:14

Right? Like all the things all

10:18

the trouble we can save by just

10:18

saying like, What are you

10:20

writing? Tom? Is this trying to

10:20

what is this trying to be? What

10:23

does it seem like it's trying to

10:23

be rather than going right in

10:25

and saying, Tom, there shouldn't

10:25

be a corgi in it clean, it

10:28

should be fun in Paris. You

10:28

know, first, if we could just

10:31

say, Tom, here's what I think

10:31

this story is about, here's what

10:34

I think is the theme. Here's

10:34

what I think is most alive in

10:38

it. Here's what I think it's,

10:38

here's what I think it is, Does

10:42

this seem true to you? And you

10:42

can always say Not at all, you

10:45

know, it's trying to write out a

10:45

quirky Paris. But either way

10:49

that that just discrepancy is

10:49

very good information, because

10:51

then we can move to the next

10:51

question, which is, we can ask

10:54

what, you know, what works?

10:54

What, what works in this? You

10:59

know, it's trying to be some

10:59

ideal version of itself, what is

11:01

it trying to be? Let's figure

11:01

that out and what works in it

11:04

trying to be that. And it might

11:04

be that very little, you know,

11:07

but the division is clear, but

11:07

that you know, a lot of the

11:10

words plumb out or that really

11:10

only the idea is working, and

11:13

that we need a whole new cast of

11:13

characters to bring out that

11:15

idea or that the beginning is

11:15

solid, but then it sort of

11:17

peters out. But you know, what

11:17

is it? What is it trying to be?

11:20

And then what works, and that

11:20

there might be all the

11:23

information the writer needs, but often then the third question would be what doesn't

11:25

work. And that's where we as

11:27

writers have to be flexible, and

11:27

be open to the fact that maybe

11:30

maybe most of it. But if we can

11:30

just identify what is necessary

11:34

to make this story or jump into

11:34

the life this life, work with

11:39

the version, we need it to be,

11:39

you know, we're like, in my own

11:42

life, I knew that the organizing

11:42

principle of my adulthood is

11:45

going to be that I wanted to be

11:45

a writer and a mother. And

11:48

certain things are going to have

11:48

to be in there for that to work.

11:51

And I would have to make 1000

11:51

Tiny decisions and calculations

11:54

every day. And if I could know

11:54

that it's ideal version, I'm a

11:59

mother and a writer, like

11:59

continue teaching is now my

12:02

favorite thing in the world to

12:02

do, because it really allows

12:04

both of those, you know, it

12:04

allows the sort of love of

12:06

nurturing someone and something

12:06

I can do at home. And it allows

12:10

me to talk about writing all

12:10

day, so that that passed the

12:12

test. But editing was something

12:12

in mind to get to its ideal

12:15

version, and then asking, you

12:15

know, what is it what works?

12:18

What doesn't, is always the

12:18

first step. So most of the life

12:21

edit prompts have sort of simple

12:21

ways to sort of in order to

12:24

think through what is this life

12:24

trying to be? And what do we not

12:27

want to mess with? You know, what do we not, we don't want to throw the whole thing out. And

12:29

what do we what are the things

12:32

that that make us feel alive? So

12:32

let's find out, let's find a

12:35

question we might journal to,

12:35

there was a long preface to

12:37

something maybe one would be

12:37

here's one thing that some

12:41

writers did last week. Here's

12:41

for the first chapter, ask what

12:45

is it? And the third prompt is,

12:45

is list your hats. Make a list

12:49

of every one of your

12:49

responsibilities, the many

12:51

different hats you wear over the

12:51

course of a year, none are too

12:55

small. If you were the default

12:55

dishwasher at home, write that

12:58

down, break down your work

12:58

within your family. Do you wear

13:01

the hat of being the primary

13:01

meal conversationalist, for

13:03

instance, the mail opener, and

13:03

Bill payer, think of other

13:06

responsibilities that come with

13:06

your job. For example, teachers

13:09

not only responsible for

13:09

teaching, but for out of class

13:12

conferences, class preparation,

13:12

grading assignments, keep this

13:15

list is an ongoing living

13:15

document. It provides a map of

13:19

what your life is, in terms of

13:19

the tasks you perform. So nice

13:23

prompt Yeah,

13:24

yeah, because

13:24

they're there. Some people might

13:27

not think to even, they might

13:27

not even be aware that they're

13:30

doing so many things. And I love

13:30

that that's really great.

13:35

Because some, you know, the end

13:35

goal isn't for people who want

13:40

to write a book, really, you

13:40

know, maybe somebody would read

13:43

that and go, this is how I'm

13:43

going to write my book literally

13:46

memoir or whatever. But you're

13:46

talking about people who are

13:51

trying to filter through their

13:51

lives and make it more

13:53

exceptional are more meaningful

13:53

if they're, there's something

13:56

out there that's lost, or they

13:56

can't quite grab on to what

14:01

their true heart calling is.

14:04

Exactly,

14:04

exactly. And that's really what

14:07

I tried to define editing as is

14:07

not necessarily go through your

14:11

closet and throw away everything

14:11

but think about what matters to

14:14

you. Do you want your life to

14:14

feel? Do you want more clarity?

14:17

Do you want more growth in a

14:17

given direction? Do you want

14:20

your life to feel more

14:20

bountiful? What is the end

14:22

feeling? What is the end goal?

14:22

What needs to be front and

14:25

center? Does your life need to

14:25

involve mountains? Does it need

14:27

to involve time with

14:27

grandchildren? Does it need to

14:29

involve what you know lots of

14:29

time for what lots of energy for

14:33

what one of the readers of this

14:33

book said that she realized that

14:37

every decision she had made that

14:37

had been a good one was in

14:40

pursuit of the single word of

14:40

quiet that she needed quiet she

14:45

moved to the country she got

14:45

animals instead of she has an

14:47

emu instead of being a city

14:47

woman. She said that she just

14:50

decided that all but ever and

14:50

then during the reading of this

14:53

she ended up getting rid of her smartphone for a football because she wanted to buy

14:55

herself quiet meals so that she

14:59

didn't have to just Always be

14:59

answering emails that could

15:01

listen to the birds and eat her

15:01

lunch that quiet, which I mean,

15:04

I would never think to edit, why

15:04

it would not be my organizing

15:08

principle. But I love the idea

15:08

that whatever the principle is,

15:10

if we figure out this in my

15:10

ideal vert, like, this gives me

15:13

energy, this feels good to me,

15:13

let's, let's prune away the

15:16

stuff that is keeping life from

15:16

mountains or quiet or

15:19

grandchildren or writing or

15:19

whatever this sort of main thing

15:21

is, so often it's pruning, but

15:21

it's also adding, you know, it's

15:23

making time or the quiet or the

15:23

writing, or whatever it happens

15:27

to be so. So I really sort of

15:27

love to think about the

15:30

minimizing and maximizing that

15:30

comes with that, which again, if

15:33

we write it down, it's sort of

15:33

we can't, it's a good, it's good

15:37

evidence, you know, that doesn't

15:37

mean it's true all the time. But

15:40

we thought it and once it was

15:40

true, and we have to reckon with

15:42

it, and if we write it again and

15:42

again and again and again. We

15:45

really have to pay attention to

15:45

our journals and to our to what

15:47

comes up a lot.

15:50

You're listening

15:50

to my April 2023 interview with

15:54

Elisabeth Sharp McKetta from her

15:54

home. Tools For Nomads is

15:58

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Now back to my conversation with

16:56

Elisabeth Sharp McKetta.

17:00

You had said you said the word

17:00

intuitive or intuition early

17:04

right at the beginning of this

17:04

conversation about how you know

17:08

that's something that we're

17:08

trying to tap into. And I think

17:12

a lot of people lose that in the

17:12

in the static electricity and

17:16

all the interference of whether

17:16

it be news or all the duties and

17:20

chores we have to do throughout

17:20

a day. A lot of people lose

17:24

touch with what's really their

17:24

needs inside. And my feeling

17:28

personally is that I am able to

17:28

tap into what the truth is

17:31

inside of me when I put that pen

17:31

down to a piece of paper. I'm

17:36

like, like I like a literal

17:36

journal, even though I have tons

17:39

and tons of stuff like that. But

17:39

I like the literal journal,

17:43

because it's slow and

17:43

methodical, I just can't write

17:47

as fast, nearly as fast as I can

17:47

type. So it slows me down. And I

17:51

tap into it. You know, now that

17:51

we're in this modern society, in

17:55

this new world and everything,

17:55

and we're more reliant on these

17:59

smartphones and things like

17:59

that, we've lost touch with the

18:03

act, the tactical stuff that

18:03

made us aware of our intuition,

18:07

like hearing something in the

18:07

woods and knowing that might be

18:11

a predator coming. Granted,

18:11

that's 1000s of years away from

18:15

where we are now. But that's

18:15

what writing is, it gets us in

18:19

touch with our real selves. So

18:19

there can be it doesn't even

18:23

have to be an end game, I guess,

18:23

is what you're saying. It's just

18:27

just open up, research yourself.

18:27

And you can burn it if you want,

18:31

but don't because if you have

18:31

kids, maybe they're gonna want

18:35

to read how crazy they're all

18:35

man or their old lady was one of

18:39

these days. So it's true.

18:41

I love that I love what you just said about researching the self.

18:43

That's exactly what it is the

18:45

way we'd research anything like

18:45

what smartphone to buy, or where

18:48

to go for vacation? Like what do

18:48

we need to know about what it's

18:50

like to be Thom Pollard or

18:50

Elizabeth McKenna? Like that's

18:52

pretty valuable information if

18:52

you happen to be one of those

18:54

people or living with one of

18:54

those people. And and, yeah, one

18:59

of the other it's sort of To

18:59

that end, a conversation that

19:01

I've had several times in

19:01

discussing this book, which I

19:04

think journaling has made which

19:04

journaling which is I think, a

19:09

trap for many people, especially

19:09

many women that I realize that

19:13

in part because of my journaling

19:13

habit I've not necessarily been

19:16

able to avoid but it's been

19:16

harder for me to do without

19:19

consequences without sort of

19:19

self knowledge of it is there's

19:22

a section in the book that that

19:22

asks the reader to identify

19:25

first choices on small scales to

19:25

then start scaling them to think

19:29

about what are the bigger first

19:29

choices and in many

19:32

conversations I've had,

19:32

especially with women come back

19:36

to the stock that often you

19:36

know, this person will have a

19:42

first choice like Oh, I think tonight for dinner I would love to make spring rolls but the

19:44

moment the first choice thought

19:46

comes up. She overrides it with

19:46

Oba my family prefers spaghetti

19:50

like every first choice is

19:50

immediately suspect and

19:54

discarded, in part because it is

19:54

the first choice because it

19:57

feels selfish because we'll be

19:57

disappointed if we You don't

20:00

have it like for all sorts of

20:00

reasons that are hidden and

20:03

generations old. But isn't that

20:03

interesting though that, that

20:06

the first choice feels like

20:06

something that is dangerous for,

20:10

you know, for for many people,

20:10

and I think this goes back to

20:13

our conversation pre podcast

20:13

that often first choices and

20:16

people who pursue them seem

20:16

threatening because why don't I

20:19

get a first choice. But I think

20:19

that when we journal, and we

20:23

write about, like, in my case,

20:23

my journaling is, you know, I'll

20:25

write about my life. And I'll

20:25

write about the things that I

20:28

love. And I'll also find myself

20:28

writing about my characters and

20:31

the books I want to write, I

20:31

think you can't avoid it in my

20:34

journal that writing is

20:34

important to me, like I can't

20:36

read my journal without

20:36

recognizing a first choice that

20:39

my life will be less or for not

20:39

having in it. And I'm sure that

20:41

your journal too, like there's

20:41

there's pure distilled Tom

20:45

energy sources in there, that

20:45

when you write, it's when you

20:48

slowly write when you write by

20:48

hand, or type you just can't

20:51

avoid, you can't not look

20:51

yourself in the eye, once you've

20:54

gotten into that habit.

20:55

Edit your life.

20:55

Elisabeth, I actually never

20:58

asked you this. I know you've

20:58

written a lot of books, how many

21:02

books is this for you. And this,

21:02

this was probably a different

21:05

kind of book for you. Because

21:05

it's not telling stories, you're

21:09

just helping untap things of the

21:09

people because you're a teacher,

21:13

you're a professor of creative

21:13

writing. So you're like, let me

21:17

just give people a guide and a

21:17

tool and they can use it however

21:21

they please,

21:21

exactly. This is a teacher book. And it is it is a total departure. For

21:23

me, it felt very brave. It, it

21:28

really did what I often tell my

21:28

students, whenever they're

21:31

worried about whether they're up

21:31

to the task of a book, we've

21:35

sort of agreed as an algorithm,

21:35

you know, as a class as a

21:37

community that, that the best

21:37

books we write should always be

21:40

books where our ambition for

21:40

them is way above our skill

21:42

level. So we have to, you know,

21:42

grow and learn and gain some new

21:47

skills and get some new training. And then eventually, we'll get as close as we can to

21:49

our audition, which is a lot

21:51

more advanced as a writer than

21:51

we were last book. There, you

21:55

know, we're never gonna make it.

21:55

You know, rarely is it the

21:58

vision perfectly, but it's the

21:58

book we can write then, that we

22:01

needed to write, it's our now

22:01

version of that book, you know,

22:04

they're always beautiful, and

22:04

they're kind of imperfection.

22:07

And this one is very much like that, that I set out to write a memoir about our experience

22:09

living in 275 square feet as a

22:12

family of four with dogs, which

22:12

was this wonderful era of just

22:17

this kind of microcosm of time

22:17

where everything was our first

22:20

choice, because you can't have

22:20

second choice objects that house

22:23

not small and you also can't be

22:23

anyone other than yourself, you

22:26

know, you have to, you have to

22:26

speak honestly, you have to, you

22:30

know, clean the table when you're done with it. Because there's only one table if you

22:32

need space, you can't hold a

22:35

grudge and hope people will notice you have to say, actually, please don't talk to

22:37

me right now. Because I really need to read my book. And even

22:39

though you're only two feet

22:41

away, I'd love to free to just

22:41

pretend right now that the NSA,

22:45

you just have to sort of learn

22:45

skills, about all sorts of

22:48

things. But ultimately, I think

22:48

kind of honesty and clarity come

22:50

very naturally in living such a

22:50

small stay. So I wanted to write

22:54

a memoir about that. And when I

22:54

got it into a proposal form, the

22:57

feedback I got was that it could

22:57

be a lot more useful and

23:01

interesting if it were a

23:01

guidebook, and I lost such

23:04

guidebooks. I'm a junkie for

23:04

such guidebook. So it felt like

23:07

a very big step, but a natural

23:07

next step. And then it took me

23:10

the next three plus years to

23:10

figure out how to do that. And

23:13

once I finally understood that

23:13

it wasn't about the stories, it

23:17

was about the principles and

23:17

stories as a means to illustrate

23:20

principles that it felt like a

23:20

duck. It's just like teaching.

23:23

It's just like teaching, but it

23:23

did take me a while for it to

23:25

click and writing.

23:26

Elisabeth, tell me

23:26

this is part of it. I think I've

23:29

never asked you to just

23:29

summarize, tell me a little bit

23:33

about what you do

23:33

professionally. You're a writer,

23:37

of course, but you teach people

23:37

students at Harvard, how to

23:41

write and explain to me a little

23:41

bit about the kind of students

23:45

and what it is you're teaching.

23:47

Yes, I

23:47

have wonderful, wonderful

23:50

inspiring students. I've been

23:50

teaching at Harvard Extension

23:53

writing program since 2012. And

23:53

the and I also teach through

23:58

Oxford's Extension School. So

23:58

all of my students are adults,

24:01

which is great, because they all

24:01

come with lots of experience,

24:04

lots of stories, and a very

24:04

clear eye for what they are

24:08

hoping to write or do or learn.

24:08

They're just there's such clear,

24:13

focused, interesting, resilient

24:13

students. It's such an honor to

24:17

teach them and I look forward to

24:17

class every week. And my

24:19

probably least favorite month of

24:19

the year is August when I don't

24:21

teach. So they're, they're

24:21

terrific. And the classes I've

24:25

taught for Harvard vary and have

24:25

in the past been everything from

24:29

business writing to the college

24:29

essay. And what I've really been

24:32

zeroing down on for the last few

24:32

years is novel writing, and

24:37

writing. And of course, I've

24:37

designed called mythic memoir.

24:40

So I'm interested in mentoring

24:40

students who have a really big

24:44

true story, too, and thinking

24:44

about how we can use myths and

24:48

fairy tales and very old stories

24:48

that everyone sort of knows or

24:52

has heard of, to do a couple

24:52

different things to lend them

24:56

some interesting imagery. And

24:56

that might be reflective and to

24:59

give and some structure because

24:59

often in life writing, where do

25:02

you begin? Where do you end? What's the middle if you're still living it, but if the

25:04

middle becomes the end, because

25:06

you're still living it. So the

25:06

myth can be helpful for

25:09

structure. And, and also, I

25:09

think it can be really helpful

25:12

in terms of just thinking about

25:12

all the different ways we

25:16

inhabit a story that we're in

25:16

our life we live many we have,

25:19

we have a committee of cells, we

25:19

live many lives, I think we are

25:22

able to sort of think with more

25:22

empathy, when we think about

25:25

these kind of fill in the blank

25:25

stories that have been told for

25:28

you know, 1000s of years. It's a

25:28

great class. And then and then

25:31

fiction, just in the novel

25:31

license, just write novels. So

25:34

really fun teaching. And in

25:34

addition to that, I write books

25:36

and so edit your wife is my is

25:36

my 12.

25:39

So this is your

25:39

wheelhouse this edit your life

25:42

is almost like it's about time,

25:42

right? This is what you've been

25:46

doing, not only just teaching it

25:46

for 12 years, this is your

25:50

thing, you're not looking, this

25:50

would be a good idea for a book.

25:53

I mean, it's probably been,

25:53

you've been teaching it and you

25:57

finally put it down if you will,

25:57

on paper. So you're helping

26:02

people untap what's hidden

26:02

inside of them, too.

26:05

I hope

26:05

so I hope that it did, it feels

26:08

like an unlocking kind of book.

26:08

And I hope that it stretches

26:12

beyond writers because my

26:12

worldview is such a writer. But

26:16

I think that part of being a

26:16

writer, what the writer has

26:18

taught me is that the thing that

26:18

that you love, however practical

26:23

or impractical, will always find

26:23

a way in your life, if it is

26:27

really that important. And so my

26:27

hope is that people read it and

26:30

can put whatever that thing is,

26:30

whether it's anything, right

26:34

there front and center, and then

26:34

figure out how to methodically

26:37

keep keep shaping it to kind of

26:37

give more and more meaning. It's

26:41

a very systematic book. And I

26:41

had, I always get a bit nervous

26:45

about the marketing part of any

26:45

one of my books. And so this

26:48

time, my husband reassured me by

26:48

saying, Well, why would you be

26:50

nervous about this one, because

26:50

it's just all of your systems.

26:52

But that is it's all you know,

26:52

it's, it's a book of systems.

26:55

And one of my earlier books was

26:55

about my my engineer,

26:59

grandfather, who died at 103.

26:59

And part of what I learned from,

27:04

you know, if you learn with each book, part of what I learned from from interviewing him and

27:06

researching him is how much his

27:09

life was a series of really good

27:09

systems, which printed here

27:13

makes sense that he had systems

27:13

for how he would connect with

27:16

his his alums over the years, he

27:16

would he had this elaborate

27:19

calendar where he write down

27:19

their birthdays, and from age 65

27:22

on call them every year on their

27:22

birthdays. He had a system for

27:26

his relationship with my grandmother, they played cribbage every day, and had a

27:27

Friday lunch every day, even

27:30

when he was very, very busy with

27:30

teaching because these were

27:32

they're like connecting rituals,

27:32

and that on one hand, it seems

27:34

very dorky that when you're a 19

27:34

year like it's me, systems for

27:37

love. But at the end of the day,

27:37

when you get busier and busier,

27:39

it's kind of nice to have systems for anything that matters to make sure that it as

27:41

a has ruined your your month and

27:45

your year and your day. So the

27:45

book is very much a systems

27:48

book.

27:49

Wow. That's

27:49

really, really cool. I love that

27:51

idea that your grandfather had

27:51

about calling after age 65

27:56

calling a friend every time it

27:56

was that person's birthday. Your

28:01

grandfather had quite a lineage.

28:01

This is the your grandfather,

28:04

who was a prominent professor

28:04

and at University of Texas, was

28:08

it

28:08

exactly

28:08

exactly he was. He was so neat.

28:12

And he and my grandmother were

28:12

both so interesting to my dad's

28:15

parents, and they live very to

28:15

be very old. And he came from

28:19

Ukrainian coal miners who his

28:19

dad had lied about his age at

28:22

age 14, and were to get on a

28:22

boat from Ukraine to wind Oh,

28:27

Pennsylvania, to work in the

28:27

mines. And because that was the

28:30

work that was available. And there was nothing in their little village of on the Polish

28:31

Ukrainian border. So then he was

28:35

able to make enough money to bring his first brother and then a second brother. And so my

28:37

grandfather had this really big

28:41

loving family of Ukrainian

28:41

immigrants in this coal mining

28:44

community where everybody worked

28:44

in the lines. And that was all

28:48

he ever wanted to do with his

28:48

life until he graduated from

28:50

high school and had his first

28:50

day in the mine. And then in a

28:53

very short succession, I think

28:53

his first day his best friend

28:55

and best friend's dad were both

28:55

killed in a mining crash. And

28:58

then in the next years, the

28:58

follow he lost his brother, he

29:01

lost his uncle, I think very

29:01

quickly, he thought this is not

29:04

for me and decided that he would

29:04

be the first person he knew to

29:07

go to university. So his journey

29:07

was one of kind of a Jack Jack

29:11

in the beanstalk journey of

29:11

climbing above ground to rise to

29:16

learn enough things about energy

29:16

in order to get to help. Well,

29:21

he ended up advising US

29:21

presidents to help people obtain

29:23

energy safely. But always he

29:23

kept us coal mining hot on his

29:26

desk.

29:27

Oh my gosh. So

29:27

I've read a little bit Could you

29:30

tell me what his name was, what

29:30

the book was and what his

29:33

ultimate, if you will legacy

29:33

beyond what his amazing legacy

29:37

already to you? Yes, his

29:39

name.

29:39

His name was John J. McKenna,

29:41

Jr. and he was born in 9015. And

29:41

I think his and he had quite a

29:48

bit of research in the chemical

29:48

engineering realm. He was a

29:51

chemical engineer, before he was

29:51

in his 40s and 50s. But then he

29:55

basically dedicated his life to

29:55

being a teacher and to Helping

30:00

the Department of Chemical

30:00

Engineering at UT get on the map

30:03

and become a powerhouse that

30:03

connected engineers to the world

30:06

and really made a difference. So

30:06

he's known as

30:09

Messer. So let's

30:09

bring it back to you. So we can

30:12

kind of put a nice bow on this

30:12

conversation, you've written

30:17

this, this remarkable book that

30:17

opens portals to people's lives.

30:23

Do you have any goals for it? Or

30:23

did you just set it out there to

30:26

flow? What how do you, you know,

30:26

how do you move on from that and

30:31

are there other projects out

30:31

there that now are demanding

30:35

your attention

30:36

salutely

30:36

I owe the I think of a book is a

30:40

is a four season affair, I think

30:40

of a book is having this is

30:43

again, very dorky system, but it

30:43

helps me live in each season of

30:47

the book, at the appropriate

30:47

time, the first stage of the

30:49

book, I think of as calm is

30:49

composting, just you know,

30:53

throwing ideas into a been going

30:53

for long walks, you know, having

30:57

a haws journaling back to

30:57

journaling, you know, just

31:00

putting any amount of sort of

31:00

random thought in in a in a

31:05

container, you know, in a

31:05

journal in a file on little note

31:08

cards and just composting for

31:08

shoots that might grow. And then

31:12

from from that stage, the next

31:12

stage is to start to have a

31:16

clear vision about what could

31:16

grow from these shoots. And, and

31:19

then the second stage is the

31:19

Create stage, which for me is by

31:22

far the most fun because you sit

31:22

down and you think I shall write

31:24

a novel about two children that

31:24

live in a tiny house, and you

31:27

greet it every day in the

31:27

morning and you or you missed

31:30

it, when you close up shop and

31:30

you want to see it the next

31:33

morning, it's just this

31:33

addictive, you know, living in

31:35

this other world of, if any

31:35

fiction, nonfiction doesn't

31:38

matter, we're just living in other worlds of book, it's just one of the writers greatest

31:40

pleasures, they get to be these

31:42

dual citizens during the time of

31:42

the book creation. And then when

31:45

the book is done, crafted, then

31:45

the next stage is to craft it

31:48

because you've got this draft

31:48

that can't be unwritten. But um,

31:51

but the third stage is to

31:51

actually make it good. So that's

31:53

what I often do a lot of reading

31:53

and try to think well, what can

31:56

I learn from these other master

31:56

reader writers about how to

31:59

improve the structure of this,

31:59

how to find the right ending how

32:02

to, often that will involve

32:02

writing, you know, six, or seven

32:05

or 18, new beginnings, just, you

32:05

know, making it good, making it

32:09

something that's takes it from

32:09

the writers draft to the readers

32:11

draft, so then it's done done.

32:11

And that might take a long time,

32:15

I often think that the thinking

32:15

is very slow, and the creating

32:18

is quite fast. And then the

32:18

draft and then the writing is

32:21

very slow again. And then once

32:21

it's ready, you you know, find

32:24

an editor, find an agent, send

32:24

an end of the world and find its

32:27

readers. And that's where I'm right now with this book, which is the connect so we've got the

32:29

compost the create the craft,

32:32

the Connect, and the connecting

32:32

has historically been the

32:34

hardest for me. Because my My

32:34

instinct is to say, you know, go

32:39

for the book, do well and then

32:39

go straight back to the compost

32:41

in the creek because that's my

32:41

favorite place to be that this

32:44

book, I've been really trying to

32:44

save her, the Kinect and I've

32:46

loved and I've been doing, you

32:46

know, having fun conversations

32:50

about it and teaching this fun

32:50

class accompanying it. So my

32:53

plan for now is to just sort of

32:53

keep, you know, hoping that the

32:57

book finds its people. And

32:57

hoping that I'm that I was lucky

33:01

enough to get to hear from some

33:01

of those people about what the

33:03

book has sort of offered them

33:03

and how creatively they've you

33:06

know, rethought different parts

33:06

of their lives big or small. And

33:09

then this summer fall, I will

33:09

give myself the great pleasure

33:12

of, of writing of starting a new

33:12

book that is actually the sequel

33:17

to a book that my first young

33:17

adult novel comes out August 1,

33:20

so I'll have another another

33:20

Kinect season, then I'm already

33:24

itching to write the book that comes after that,

33:26

Elizabeth, so I'm

33:26

sure you've been asked this

33:29

before. But I don't mean to put

33:29

you on the spot. But like, Who

33:32

is this book for? If you had to

33:32

say in a few sentences, like who

33:37

who wants to read this book?

33:39

Yes, this is this is such a good question. And this is a question

33:40

that I often ask my students to

33:43

answer, like, Who are you

33:43

writing for? And as a, as a

33:46

writer, as a writer? The worst

33:46

answer you can give to that

33:48

question is everybody. So if you

33:48

ask your students like, you

33:52

know, who do you read, you want

33:52

them to say, everybody, and who

33:56

is this for? You wanted to say

33:56

this very small population of

33:58

people who really will be? And

33:58

I'm afraid that I'm that my

34:02

answer for this one is the JT

34:02

answer of everybody. But really,

34:05

anyone who feels that their life

34:05

needs a tweak or is murky, or

34:10

has pivoted in a way that they

34:10

did or did not like during the

34:13

pandemic and they're ready for a

34:13

rethink about things. So I hope

34:16

that it gets a very broad array

34:16

of people who both have thought

34:21

deliberately before about the

34:21

trajectory their life will take.

34:24

And also people who have never thought that they had the ability to do so I'd love to

34:25

read some of those people who

34:28

never would ever consider

34:28

shaping their life from inside

34:33

out. So that's my that's my

34:33

goal.

34:35

That's perfect.

34:35

Thank you so much. And I hope

34:40

that anybody listening to this

34:40

conversation who's just itching

34:44

to get whether it's their

34:44

physical journal out, or their

34:48

electronic one out this book

34:48

will be a guide for them to you

34:52

know, tap into those reserves

34:52

that is brewing within all of

34:56

us. So it's always good hearing

34:56

you talk Can the excitement that

35:01

you bring to your work?

35:03

Thank

35:03

you is so delightful. I just

35:05

love talking with you and I look

35:05

forward to it whatever when I

35:08

have a time date on the calendar

35:08

I look forward to it for

35:13

the dedication to

35:13

Elisabeth's book reads. For

35:16

anyone wishing to live a more

35:16

deliberate life and isn't sure

35:21

where to start. This book is for

35:21

you. You can find Elizabeth's

35:26

website at Elizabeth sharp

35:26

mckenna.com Thanks for visiting

35:30

tools for nomads intimate look

35:30

into the lives and habits of

35:34

passionate and creatively

35:34

prolific people like Elisabeth

35:39

Sharp McKetta. Wherever you're

35:39

listening or watching, I hope

35:43

you'll take a moment to

35:43

subscribe and share with us in

35:47

the comments where you're coming

35:47

from and what you thought about

35:52

today's episode. Tools For

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Pollard. I'll see you next time

36:45

on tools for nomads.