0:00

The following is a conversation with

0:02

Alex pate urban farmer committed

0:07

to bringing organic sustainable

0:07

food to the urban dwellers of

0:11

Brooklyn, New York. I'm Thom

0:11

Pollard This is tools for

0:15

nomads, where you meet

0:15

inspiring, insightful,

0:18

passionate individuals, nomads

0:18

driven by creativity, and an

0:24

insatiable curiosity for life's

0:24

big questions. Wherever you're

0:28

listening or watching, be sure

0:28

to subscribe, like, comment,

0:33

leave a rating and review. In

0:33

the United States today, the

0:38

number of family owned farms

0:38

declines concentrated animal

0:42

feeding operations dominate

0:42

animal production, and have a

0:46

huge influence on crop growing.

0:46

A small company in Brooklyn, New

0:51

York called square roots looks

0:51

to change the tide and take back

0:55

the heart and soul of farming.

0:55

By growing organic food in get

1:00

this shipping containers. And at

1:00

the same time, they create

1:04

meaningful jobs in the modern

1:04

farming industry, actively

1:08

incorporating diversity, equity

1:08

and inclusion in their business

1:13

as well as a starting base pay

1:13

that would surprise literally

1:17

anyone. So picture this, a

1:17

tractor trailer fitted out with

1:22

all the necessary equipment. So

1:22

container units ultimately

1:26

become farms placed inside

1:26

cities around the world to feed

1:30

urban dwellers. The mission of

1:30

square roots to responsibly

1:35

bring locally grown food to

1:35

people in cities around the

1:39

world all year round. My guest

1:39

today Alex PEI is farm manager

1:44

of square roots Brooklyn

1:44

operation. He grew up outside

1:47

Chicago became a teacher in the

1:47

city of Chicago. And then after

1:52

becoming somewhat disenchanted

1:52

with what his impact actually

1:56

was in the teaching world. He

1:56

found urban agriculture to be a

2:00

natural extension of his

2:00

interest in the recently

2:03

legalized cannabis industry. Now

2:03

Alex is committed to the square

2:08

roots mission of bringing

2:08

organic sustainable food to

2:11

people around the world. His

2:11

story is fascinating. Here's

2:15

Alex pate from the square roots

2:15

farm in Brooklyn. Background

2:19

noise in all. So Alex, great

2:19

Sanya seriously, thanks for

2:25

taking the time. And I am really

2:25

interested in hearing about

2:32

square roots. But wanted to ask

2:32

you first a little bit about

2:36

your journey. How circuitous was

2:36

it for you to find your way into

2:41

farming as a young man entering

2:41

farming? Yeah,

2:45

you know, I never

2:45

actually growing up ever

2:48

considered agriculture,

2:48

horticulture as any viable

2:51

career path. Right. I think a

2:51

lot of our minds, we are told

2:56

what agriculture is, and we

2:56

think of, you know, large

2:59

industrial scale farming with

2:59

you living in some place off in

3:04

the country, and that, like you

3:04

are doing that, and so that had

3:09

no appeal to me. And actually, like, when I was

3:11

younger, had a really difficult

3:15

time actually finding something

3:15

that I was drawn to in a

3:20

capacity that I want to pursue

3:20

professionally. Like, it was

3:22

actually, a lot of, you know, my

3:22

personality, I think was derived

3:26

from not taking interest in any

3:26

of these, like main subjects

3:32

that I had been brought up to

3:32

study. And so once I got into to

3:39

undergrad at DePaul University,

3:39

hopped around to a few different

3:43

majors, but ultimately landed on

3:43

education. And I think that, you

3:47

know, I was fortunate enough to

3:47

be around a lot of like, really

3:52

quality educators, I think, at

3:52

the time when I was in undergrad

3:56

in 2010, to 2014.

4:00

There was a large initiative in

4:00

the city of Chicago, as well as

4:05

other urban areas as well, but

4:05

to really emphasize the

4:08

importance of minority teachers

4:08

being put into the classroom and

4:13

placing themselves in the classroom and choosing that career path, because of how

4:15

important it was to have you

4:20

know, representation in the

4:20

classroom and for students to be

4:23

able to see themselves parts of

4:23

themselves reflected in, you

4:27

know, the people that were

4:27

teaching them. And so I really

4:30

internalized that and it was

4:30

really encouraged by a number of

4:33

my professors to pursue that and

4:33

so started down that route. But

4:38

as a lot of teachers as well,

4:38

like I absolutely romanticized

4:41

the profession, you know, and

4:41

thought, you know, black male, I

4:46

can have this this, you know,

4:46

impact on black and brown

4:49

students and it'll be great and

4:49

like, once I started teaching,

4:53

you know, realize that a lot of

4:53

the commonalities that I thought

4:56

existed, actually didn't and

4:56

that you My, you know, skin tone

5:02

my race, however you want to

5:02

phrase, it was actually one of

5:05

the only things that I had in

5:05

common with my students, I, I've

5:09

never lived in poverty, like

5:09

like some of my students have,

5:12

I've never wondered where my

5:12

next meal is coming from right,

5:16

I honestly took a lot of those

5:16

things for granted. And so,

5:21

during my time teaching, I

5:21

taught for three years, and

5:25

during that time, took a lot of

5:25

great things away from it, and

5:28

really enjoyed the experience.

5:28

But it was also really depressed

5:30

during that time. Because, yeah,

5:30

of what living in poverty is,

5:37

and all of the baggage that

5:37

comes with that. And I was not

5:42

equipped to deal with that. And

5:42

I felt helpless in a lot of ways

5:46

because, you know, I have this

5:46

scope of impact that, that

5:50

doesn't leave the school, right,

5:50

it's in the classroom. And when

5:55

kids when individuals are busy

5:55

focusing on meeting their basic

6:00

needs, right, the classroom is

6:00

the last thing that they that

6:04

they care about. And so from

6:04

that it kind of forced, like

6:06

this internal crisis in my mind

6:06

of like, okay, this isn't where

6:10

I want to be, you know, what is

6:10

it that I want to spend my time

6:13

doing and coming out of

6:13

undergrad I also, for myself was

6:18

was at this point where it's

6:18

like, what have I done in my

6:21

life, that actually qualifies me

6:21

to be in the classroom to teach

6:26

kids? Like, I haven't done I

6:26

haven't done shit, you know, and

6:28

so, and, and so that was kind of

6:28

incentive to is like, no, let's

6:32

find what Alex wants to do.

6:32

Because when you find a passion

6:36

like that, when you, you know,

6:36

gain this hunger for knowledge

6:41

within a particular industry

6:41

within a particular field,

6:44

that's where you start to become

6:44

an expert, right, not having

6:48

completed four years of

6:48

undergrad and absolutely passed

6:51

this content test. And so at that time, then, the

6:53

state of Illinois had already

6:57

decriminalized cannabis use, but

6:57

was in the process of, you know,

7:02

legalizing it fully. And with

7:02

that, kind of like being on the

7:06

precipice of that there was a

7:06

lot of discussion at the time,

7:09

they've kind of shifted away

7:09

from that now, but the state of

7:12

Illinois put a lot of emphasis

7:12

on, we want to, you know,

7:16

address the inequalities that

7:16

have resulted from the war on

7:19

drugs. And that means, like, a

7:19

lot of black and brown people

7:24

have been unfairly targeted,

7:24

incarcerated, find all of these

7:29

things that came along with

7:29

that. And so I saw an

7:33

opportunity there was like,

7:33

okay, you know, I can try to

7:36

enter that field. And in the

7:36

similar way, you know, that I

7:40

think, you know, we see

7:40

breweries pop up, and people go

7:43

to a brewery because they know,

7:43

a brewer, they know, a company,

7:47

they know, like a distillery.

7:47

And they seek out that, that,

7:50

you know, that product and they

7:50

go to the brewery for an

7:53

experience, I kind of foresaw

7:53

like a similar scenario. And I

7:57

still think that this is going

7:57

to be the case with with

7:59

cannabis where it's like, you

7:59

know, you can have growers that

8:02

are known for, you know, their

8:02

strange, you can have

8:06

experiences built around around

8:06

the cannabis use consumption,

8:11

whatever it is. But as I got

8:11

into that, and started to like,

8:16

you know, just start to do like

8:16

some basic research, I took some

8:19

direct certification courses

8:19

within agriculture, it became

8:22

abundantly clear to me that

8:22

there are a lot more significant

8:27

things happening within

8:27

agriculture, specifically around

8:31

food access around achieving

8:31

food sovereignty around and I

8:36

say that I don't want to under

8:36

state the food sovereignty

8:39

piece, because there's a lot

8:39

that goes into that. But

8:42

essentially, that, you know, the

8:42

empowerment that comes with

8:45

people being able to dictate how

8:45

their food is produced, where

8:49

it's produced, what they eat,

8:49

that that is so profound. And

8:55

similarly to like just farming

8:55

generally as a as a field,

8:58

right? People aren't given

8:58

insights into that to understand

9:03

how significant that actually

9:03

is. And so once I started to get

9:07

into that, I realized that like

9:07

there's so much more here than

9:10

than cannabis. And then I think

9:10

as well like similar like, I can

9:13

still do that thing like but

9:13

growing cannabis doesn't need to

9:16

be my my main focus, right? You

9:16

learn how to grow plants, you

9:18

can grow whatever the hell you

9:18

want. And that's like a really

9:21

exciting thing. And so after

9:21

that, then I started

9:24

volunteering at this community

9:24

farm, and they're based around

9:29

community farming, so they grow

9:29

a variety of fruits and

9:33

vegetables, they manage three

9:33

different farm sites, and sell

9:36

all of their produce on a

9:36

sliding scale. So we don't have

9:40

we only have suggested prices. A

9:40

lot of times like our food is

9:42

given away for free. We work

9:42

with mutual aid organizations to

9:46

distribute food. And just over

9:46

the past two years, I've set up

9:49

about 75 bridges on the south

9:49

and west sides of Chicago that

9:55

are hosted by various companies,

9:55

organizations, individuals, that

10:00

provides a 24 hour access fridge

10:00

and pantry where then our

10:05

network of a few 1000 volunteers

10:05

stocked those fridges clean

10:09

those fridges so that people can

10:09

access food whenever whenever

10:13

they need to. And so those are

10:13

like really powerful missions,

10:16

you know that I think a lot of

10:16

people are kind of like

10:19

searching for work. That seems

10:19

that meaningful, right. And I

10:23

think, and that's what I've

10:23

really seen in is really just

10:26

kind of firmed. This trajectory

10:26

that I've kind of set out on is

10:29

like, the intersectionality, of

10:29

agriculture, with art, with

10:35

architecture, with medicine,

10:35

with housing, like, it touches

10:39

everything. And that's what's so

10:39

exciting is that the exposure to

10:43

it allows people to take their

10:43

particular skills, and choose

10:48

then how they want to engage

10:48

with agriculture. And that's

10:51

what I see as being a huge

10:51

piece, as what's happening, what

10:54

I was doing in farming in

10:54

Chicago, what we're doing here

10:57

at square roots, what every so

10:57

many small community based farms

11:01

are doing is allowing the

11:01

pathway for people to engage,

11:06

because you can't think

11:06

critically or creatively about

11:08

things that you don't know

11:08

about. And so that's the biggest

11:12

piece here that it's like, this

11:12

is this is the ensuing food

11:16

related aspect of this

11:16

revolution that everybody has

11:20

been talking about, right that

11:20

like it's incremental, it's

11:22

never going to be popped down

11:22

all at once. But this is, as it

11:26

pertains to food sovereignty,

11:26

what that aspect of the

11:30

revolution looks to achieve,

11:30

it's empowering people to

11:33

control their means of food

11:33

production, and food consumption

11:38

foods to say and sustains our

11:38

life. So

11:40

you obviously had

11:40

this, this empathic sense this

11:44

this desire to help people. And

11:44

so you went out seeking

11:50

knowledge in a different place.

11:50

And I think that whole idea of

11:53

the the cannabis industry

11:53

shifting, it brings up some

11:57

great points, because there's

11:57

the people who are succeeding in

12:02

that are at least doing it well,

12:02

not necessarily making a lot of

12:05

money. They have to know

12:05

horticulture, they have to know

12:09

how plants work, they have to

12:09

know how to get the most out of

12:13

a tiny little area. And it's

12:13

usually not like 10 acres hidden

12:17

in the woods, in like the

12:17

Northwest. It's like in in a

12:22

basement in a four by four box

12:22

with a with a light on it. So

12:27

it's like, it's really a

12:27

fascinating journey. You know?

12:30

Well, I'll stop you there. Because think about what you just said, right? Like,

12:32

illegally growing drugs in your

12:37

basement. Right? How is that

12:37

viewed from a societal

12:40

standpoint, from our current

12:40

legal system and justice system,

12:43

which I'm not going to go into

12:43

that, but like, tons of

12:46

legitimacy in my mind. But so

12:46

from basement growing illegally,

12:50

your criminal based on legal

12:50

definitions, to then a legal

12:55

framework shifting? And all of a

12:55

sudden, these criminals are all

12:59

of a sudden actually plant

12:59

scientists? Oh, yeah.

13:02

Oh, yeah. It's

13:02

crazy. So you're in, you're on

13:06

the ground floor. And you're

13:06

working at a place called square

13:09

roots, which I'm fascinated by

13:09

it. Tell me about it. It's an

13:15

amazing thing. So you're in the

13:15

middle of Brooklyn, New York.

13:18

And there are these containers

13:18

that are essentially, it's a

13:22

farm in the middle of the city,

13:22

feeding people fresh, organic

13:26

food. Absolutely.

13:28

So we Yeah, our our

13:28

square was just founded in 2016.

13:35

And the campus that I am

13:35

currently, managing this farm

13:38

was our our first site. This is

13:38

like our headquarters. This is

13:42

where our research and

13:42

development team is where we

13:46

develop all of our farm systems.

13:46

And I've actually been following

13:50

this company for for a number of

13:50

years, just kind of seeing what

13:55

they've been up to, because of

13:55

how profound, right, exactly

13:59

what we're saying is that we

13:59

have what's the equivalent of

14:04

close to, you know, 75 acres of

14:04

capable growing space that we

14:09

have created inside of these

14:09

containers. So we utilize a lot

14:13

of just like, a lot of gravity

14:13

to move water through our

14:16

systems to allow plants to

14:16

receive the nutrients that they

14:19

need the water requirements, and

14:19

what you know, square roots

14:22

mission is, is to bring urban

14:22

agriculture to urban centers.

14:29

And, you know, I think longer

14:29

term the goal being that we

14:34

could theoretically have a

14:34

campus of our container farms

14:39

anywhere on Earth, regardless of

14:39

the geographical location,

14:43

regardless of the, you know,

14:43

weather conditions associated

14:47

with that geographical

14:47

condition. And that is so

14:52

profound to what our current

14:52

understanding and system of of

14:57

growing food is. and actually

14:57

kind of goes back. And I love to

15:01

like reflect on, you know,

15:01

models of like Greco Roman

15:06

societies and the way in which

15:06

cities should ideally be laid

15:11

out to allow food access, which

15:11

we've deviated so much from. But

15:16

that like, actually, in these

15:16

sorts of models of understanding

15:19

what a sustainable food system

15:19

is, is that like our urban areas

15:23

are built around our food

15:23

production centers, so that the

15:27

distribution of that food can

15:27

evenly be spread out within an

15:32

urban center that surrounds it.

15:32

And we've actually adopted the

15:35

opposite model in a lot of

15:35

Western society. And so that's

15:41

what's really great, and like

15:41

powerful I think about square

15:44

roots in particular is that we

15:44

have this scalable model, that

15:48

our farms are contained within

15:48

these shipping containers. And

15:51

so when we want to size up

15:51

because we receive funds that we

15:55

can hire more staff to operate

15:55

these facilities, is that we can

16:00

actually just purchase another

16:00

one of these containers

16:03

retrofitted to meet our system.

16:03

And then we have additional

16:07

space. So you know, Brooklyn is

16:07

our is our headquarters and our

16:11

original farm, we also have two

16:11

farms in Grand Rapids, Michigan,

16:15

that consist of you know, I

16:15

believe, 24 zones where we have

16:20

10, at the farm that I'm at, and

16:20

they're double stacked, you

16:24

know, they fit within this

16:24

really tight like area, square

16:28

footage, area, and then can, you

16:28

know, have the equivalent of

16:33

potentially hundreds of acres of

16:33

land that we're able to grow in

16:38

a, roughly, you know, what is it

16:38

10 By 36 container?

16:44

So what's it look

16:44

like? So you open the door, and

16:47

you've got this container, how

16:47

long is a container truck was it

16:50

like 450 feet long, or something

16:50

like I

16:53

think they're like 46

16:53

feet. And so you open their

16:57

doors, and we have metal racks

16:57

that contain our nursery space.

17:01

So we have a nursery and it

17:01

being contained, like from

17:06

germination to harvest,

17:06

everything takes place within

17:09

the singular zones. So we have

17:09

our germination chambers, which

17:12

are actually just shelves inside

17:12

of our zones that we seed inside

17:18

of our trays as any farmer does.

17:18

They'll live in there for a few

17:21

days until they germinate, at

17:21

which point we transfer them

17:23

over to our nursery space, which

17:23

is then hooked up to our

17:27

singular source of water for the

17:27

entire zone, in that and I say

17:33

this, because it's just kind of

17:33

pertinent to for people who are

17:36

particularly knowledgeable about

17:36

agriculture, generally

17:40

horticulture is like, it's cool,

17:40

because we have different

17:42

beneficial fungi, different

17:42

nutrient contents, different

17:46

beneficial insects that we

17:46

released within our zones,

17:48

because what we're trying to do

17:48

is replicate, you know, an

17:52

ecological system that otherwise

17:52

just naturally exists in the

17:56

outside world. And that

17:56

actually, there's a lot of

17:58

nuance in trying to replicate

17:58

that sort of ecosystem in a

18:01

confined space. Because there

18:01

are the knowns, the known

18:05

unknowns and the unknown

18:05

unknowns that like are actually

18:08

contributing to a naturally

18:08

occurring ecosystem that we're

18:12

trying to emulate in our in our

18:12

spaces. And so from germination

18:17

to harvest, our crops are from

18:17

take between 28 and 31 days. And

18:23

so on our campus here. Yeah,

18:23

it's extremely fast. But that

18:27

also has to do with the crops

18:27

that we choose to grow. Here at

18:31

Brooklyn, we only focus on

18:31

herbs. That is primarily

18:36

dictated by just like market

18:36

trends in the area. The lettuce,

18:40

you know, market in New York

18:40

City is pretty saturated. There

18:44

are a number of hydroponic farms

18:44

that operate here. And that's

18:48

really like a positive thing,

18:48

right? I think that like, we

18:51

have a number of options for

18:51

consumers to again, come in

18:56

contact with these various forms

18:56

of agriculture, purchase their

19:00

product acclimate themselves to

19:00

like what that means whether or

19:03

not they like want to subscribe

19:03

to supporting that sort of

19:06

thing. And so we primarily focus

19:06

on her. So here we are growing

19:10

basil, that's like our biggest

19:10

crop, focus on basil, parsley,

19:15

and cilantro. And then

19:15

historically, we've also grown

19:18

chives and dill, and we're going

19:18

to be reintroducing dill to our,

19:23

our farms as well. So that will

19:23

be the fourth crop that we'll

19:25

be, we'll be selling but at our

19:25

other farms. We also grow herbs,

19:30

but there's less of a saturated

19:30

market for salads. So a lot of

19:33

our other farms grow variety of

19:33

lettuces and mustard greens that

19:37

go into salad mixes that we do.

19:37

And that's what's really

19:42

exciting too, because, like, I

19:42

talked about this a lot as it

19:45

pertains to Brooklyn, right?

19:45

It's like at this campus in

19:48

particular, we don't grow food

19:48

for sustenance, right? It's like

19:52

the farming that we were talking

19:52

about previously, community

19:54

garden is oriented around

19:54

providing food for people to

19:57

live off, right. And that's not

19:57

what we're doing here. Here, but

20:01

at the same time, the technology

20:01

that we are refining here is

20:08

impacting the trajectory of what

20:08

urban agriculture will become.

20:12

And just as any sort of into

20:12

your question of like, okay, so

20:14

can we drop one of these

20:14

containers in some areas in the

20:18

desert somewhere? Can we drop it

20:18

in somewhere far north and near

20:22

the Antarctic? The answer is

20:22

yes, we can. But similar to any

20:26

developmental technology is like

20:26

where it starts out, it's very

20:30

expensive, right. That's why

20:30

square roots is a venture funded

20:35

company, because they need the

20:35

reason they need the financial

20:38

resources to be able to access

20:38

these containers. You know,

20:43

while we are an agriculture

20:43

company, we're primarily a tech

20:46

company, because we develop the

20:46

technology that controls our

20:51

environment systems inside of

20:51

our zones, right. And so all of

20:55

that takes an immense amount of

20:55

money, which individuals, small

20:59

nonprofit organizations don't

20:59

have the capacity to do. But

21:04

with that trajectory, right,

21:04

just as any technology like cell

21:07

phones, right, at first, a very

21:07

exclusive group of people had

21:10

access to it and use it. But as

21:10

different players began to come

21:14

into cellular, the cellular

21:14

device, whatever realm is that,

21:19

like, people refined the

21:19

technology, the materials

21:23

required to build phones became

21:23

cheaper. And as a result, more

21:27

people became able to access

21:27

phones to benefit from what they

21:31

provide. And I view that in the

21:31

same sort of way, right. And

21:34

that was kind of a point of

21:34

contention for me and in

21:37

deciding was I going to join

21:37

square roots was I going to

21:40

leave community based gardening

21:40

is because it's not the same

21:43

sort of providing food

21:43

immediately for people. But

21:46

impacting that trajectory is so

21:46

profound to me that that is kind

21:50

of what's fueling my interest at

21:50

this particular point in time,

21:55

because we're on the cutting

21:55

edge of of what, presumably, an

22:00

industry that will be just as

22:00

large, if not larger. And by

22:04

larger, I mean, even more

22:04

diversified than our industrial

22:08

farming systems that we've

22:08

historically hadn't had in this

22:12

country. And so I think that

22:12

that's, like, really exciting,

22:15

especially because of who we

22:15

have farm with us. It's urban

22:19

dwellers, it's people who grew

22:19

up in New York here, some people

22:23

have, you know, degrees advanced

22:23

degrees, other people are high

22:27

school graduates, you know, and

22:27

allowing the exposure to these

22:31

systems is so valuable, because

22:31

where we are, as an industry,

22:38

the the experiences and

22:38

professional experience in these

22:42

hydroponic systems is valuable

22:42

in itself. And so then when our

22:46

farmers, you know, step into

22:46

these roles, learn our systems,

22:50

that that translates to so many

22:50

other companies that are in

22:54

hydroponic spaces, that that

22:54

itself in addition to all the

22:58

other benefits that we offer, in

22:58

pay and everything, but that

23:00

experience itself is so

23:00

valuable, because there are so

23:03

few people who have that hands

23:03

on experience.

23:06

So do you ever do

23:06

Do you ever schools come and do

23:09

tours or anything like that, or?

23:09

Yeah,

23:11

so we actually just

23:11

had a a tour that was

23:13

rescheduled to next Friday,

23:13

because it's supposed to be

23:17

pretty rainy tomorrow. But we

23:17

have a number of people who are

23:20

actually on our on our software

23:20

engineering team, who have been

23:24

volunteering with, with a couple

23:24

of high schools, one of the high

23:29

schools is going to come visit

23:29

but they ran like a Tech course

23:32

and after school, like Tech

23:32

Club, and help do like different

23:36

like programming projects, and

23:36

software development projects

23:39

with the students, and now are

23:39

kind of like at the culmination

23:43

of this this after school

23:43

program are bringing the kids to

23:47

see right where the tire meets

23:47

the road, right where this

23:50

software development piece,

23:50

actually in real life informs

23:54

what's happening on this farming

23:54

level. And that's really

23:57

exciting. Just because, I mean,

23:57

at the farm I was at in Chicago,

24:00

we frequently had groups of

24:00

volunteers from from high school

24:04

and high school age volunteers.

24:04

And so many young kids, even

24:08

while I was teaching are so

24:08

interested in agriculture. And

24:12

and that's what's exciting, too,

24:12

is that like, it's the zeitgeist

24:15

at this moment. Like that's

24:15

where we are socially is that to

24:19

our conversation earlier around,

24:19

resource allocation and resource

24:23

availability is like, we have

24:23

not yet even seen what where

24:28

we're going to be with resources

24:28

not being available for people

24:32

like we're just starting to get

24:32

under the surface of this

24:37

iceberg. And we're going to see

24:37

some things that are really

24:40

going to be concerning, right.

24:40

And I think our younger

24:44

generations are very tuned into

24:44

that and see this looming crisis

24:50

that is about to unfold that

24:50

like it's starting to unfold,

24:54

but there's a lot to come. And I

24:54

think that there's an urgency in

24:58

a lot of young people too. get

24:58

into these meaningful fields

25:01

where they can have that sort of

25:01

impact, which I think is really

25:05

encouraging. And honestly, it's

25:05

the only way that we can go like

25:08

because we're going to have to

25:08

deal with these difficulties one

25:10

way or another. And so we might

25:10

as well try to get people

25:14

interested in qualified in

25:14

through training through

25:17

different academic means through

25:17

just like hands on experience,

25:21

to be able to make informed

25:21

decisions about this and to be

25:23

able to deal with some of these

25:23

things that we're about to see.

25:27

Well, we could

25:27

probably unpack a lot right

25:30

there. But there's less that we

25:30

can count on, in terms of our

25:35

future just seems we're kind of

25:35

on a wishy washy ground right

25:39

now. And what's going to be in

25:39

one year, let alone 10, or 15

25:42

is?

25:43

No, I agree. I think,

25:43

you know, though, historically

25:46

speaking, our species has a

25:46

pretty bad track record of being

25:51

proactive in addressing some of

25:51

these issues, right, I think a

25:56

lot and not just regarding

25:56

climate change, I think

25:58

regarding a whole slew of issues

25:58

that we would have benefited

26:03

from on a state level, you know,

26:03

from a country standpoint, from

26:07

a global standpoint, if we would

26:07

have taken some of these things

26:11

seriously and acted proactively.

26:11

And so I think, you know, a

26:17

piece that even goes to like,

26:17

the Black Lives Matter movement

26:21

that I see. And as a black

26:21

person, I say this. And I think

26:24

a lot of people of color share

26:24

this sentiment, right is like,

26:28

we have instances of repeated

26:28

police brutality that have been

26:32

happening, right. And as a

26:32

result, and we've had the second

26:36

coming of the civil rights

26:36

movement, essentially, right.

26:38

And those things have been

26:38

happening. So now that the

26:41

public is made more aware of

26:41

them, there's a sense of urgency

26:45

that comes with solving them and

26:45

addressing them. And so in my

26:48

mind, right, my parents raised

26:48

me like, you need to be aware of

26:52

yourself to these extents,

26:52

because you as a black child, as

26:56

a black man face these things.

26:56

So you should proactively look

26:59

to make sure that like you don't

26:59

put yourself in those

27:01

situations. Right. I'm fortunate

27:01

in that way to have been

27:04

addressed in that way. And so

27:04

similarly, I think the sense of

27:09

urgency in regards to climate

27:09

change into in regards to

27:13

addressing food resource issues

27:13

in addressing use of water

27:19

resources, preservation of soil

27:19

rebuilding of soils, that the

27:24

pressure to act on that the heat

27:24

has been turned up, right, we're

27:29

past the proactive piece, we're

27:29

now reacting to that. And so I

27:34

think I see that as being

27:34

encouraging, just from the fact

27:38

that like, we have not acted

27:38

proactively in a number of

27:42

instances. This is now the time

27:42

that we are forced to make

27:48

decisive, impactful decisions.

27:48

And I see a lot of people rising

27:53

to the occasion to do so. And I

27:53

think that that's a really great

27:56

thing because it's coming

27:56

regardless of whether we

27:58

acknowledge it or not. And there

27:58

are a number of people who are

28:01

like, we have no other option.

28:01

So let's go out fighting.

28:07

You're listening

28:07

to my interview with Alex Pate,

28:10

farm manager of square roots

28:10

urban farm in Brooklyn, New

28:14

York. Tools for nomads is

28:14

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28:20

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Tokyo. Top door shop.com. Alex,

28:57

the idea of of the climate

28:57

change and the condition. And

29:04

near and far future of our

29:04

planet has come up numerous

29:08

times on this podcast and tools

29:08

for nomads, people need to and

29:14

I'm not trying to preach here

29:14

but but there it's important

29:17

that more and more people start

29:17

to ask where they're getting

29:21

their food from. And so what

29:21

you're doing with square roots,

29:25

and when a school, a group of

29:25

school kids come in, you're

29:28

saying I'm gonna empower you by

29:28

teaching you something you can

29:33

take this into your own hands,

29:33

the food doesn't have to come

29:37

from a farm in Minnesota or in

29:37

Argentina, let alone to get your

29:43

avocados or whatever it is we

29:43

get shipped up here. empowering

29:48

individuals and groups of

29:48

people. Did I get that right and

29:53

should I I'll stop talking now.

29:55

The empowerment piece

29:55

is huge. And I'm telling you it

29:58

sounds a little bit Sounds a

29:58

little romanticize. It sounds a

30:01

little, yeah, let's kumbaya

30:01

around all the topsoil that we

30:05

were able to regenerate, right?

30:05

Like, that's, that's fair. But

30:09

at the same time, if people

30:09

don't see what they start to

30:16

think about if they don't see a

30:16

lived vision of what they want

30:25

our future to look like, that

30:25

cuts down on the percentage of

30:30

individuals who are going to try

30:30

to do it. Right, I've been so

30:34

fortunate to have the series of

30:34

seemingly random events that

30:39

have led me to coming to this

30:39

conclusion. But as I engaged in

30:44

urban agriculture, and I say it

30:44

because like acknowledging the

30:48

high school piece, and that's

30:48

great. And we want to start

30:50

educating people from a very

30:50

young age, so that they can

30:53

start to think about these

30:53

things and make decisions around

30:56

their career paths around what

30:56

they do with their lives. With

30:59

these things in mind, that's

30:59

extremely important. providing

31:02

pathways is what I see square

31:02

roots doing as well, which made

31:06

kind of the decision for me to

31:06

join them a lot easier, because

31:09

our pay here, you know, is

31:09

starting around $25 an hour.

31:12

Historically, agriculture has

31:12

really taken advantage of

31:17

physical labor, there's this

31:17

terrible perception that

31:21

physical labor is synonymous

31:21

with unskilled work, is like the

31:25

majority of people actually,

31:25

that we if you just grabbed a

31:28

random group of people and ask

31:28

them to perform these farm

31:31

tasks, whether it's harvesting,

31:31

whether it's various sorts of

31:34

like spacing, and seating and

31:34

understanding the various

31:37

factors that will impact our

31:37

crops, that's highly skilled

31:40

work. And I think that that's

31:40

part of the Zeitgeist Movement

31:43

is that like, people also find a

31:43

lot of a lot of satisfaction in

31:49

like, traits. And being able to

31:49

that was one of the things that

31:53

drew me to farming is like, I

31:53

want to have a trait that like I

31:56

have an area of expertise in,

31:56

rather than being maybe more of

32:00

like a generalist, which also a

32:00

lot of professionals are moving

32:03

towards. And so providing

32:03

pathways for people to make

32:07

responsible professional

32:07

decisions, meaning I have a kid

32:10

I need to support, how can I,

32:10

you know, I need to prioritize

32:13

taking care of another human

32:13

being right. And so it would be

32:15

irresponsible in a lot of

32:15

instances for people to join to

32:19

get into farming, because

32:19

they're gonna be making below

32:21

poverty wages, and will have no

32:21

PTO and no health care, and like

32:26

square roots provides equity to

32:26

all of our full time employees,

32:29

if you are a full time employee,

32:29

here, you are a part owner of

32:31

the company, we pay you above

32:31

living wage, right, we have

32:35

fully covered health care

32:35

benefits. And so that's also

32:39

outside of education, that's

32:39

providing a pathway that's

32:42

providing a responsible career

32:42

opportunity for people to say

32:47

no, like, there is a way for me

32:47

to enter the field, this is how

32:51

I can do so. And I think that as

32:51

you know, we again, the infancy

32:55

of where we are as an industry

32:55

is the players who are in there

32:58

now have their realm of in their

32:58

sphere of impact is so much

33:04

larger, because the competition

33:04

in this field is relatively

33:08

small at its current state,

33:11

Alex, so going to

33:11

try to turn the corner here a

33:14

little bit and bring it back to

33:14

the things, if you will, the

33:20

items, the things that belong to

33:20

you that you keep, essentially,

33:26

that are most important for your

33:26

creativity and your

33:29

productivity. So like what do

33:29

you need to get your work done

33:33

on any given day?

33:35

So from from my role

33:35

as farm manager, I'd say the

33:39

number one asset that I need is

33:39

an informed team. Yeah, that's

33:46

it is an informed team. I lean

33:46

so heavily on my two assistant

33:51

farm managers who have, you

33:51

know, a level of expertise in

33:56

this system specifically. And

33:56

then below them, we have, you

34:00

know, a number of farmers whose

34:00

level of expertise on our system

34:05

exceeds mine, you know, and so

34:05

that's what I think it is, is a

34:11

level is a team and informed

34:11

team that can do this because

34:15

farming as well, you can't do

34:15

that from under resource like

34:20

single individuals, right? I

34:20

think it's something like, half

34:24

an acre is recommended for a

34:24

single person to be able to

34:26

attend to that that's the

34:26

biggest thing maybe that's not

34:28

the easiest answer. It's doesn't

34:28

come down to a single travel or

34:31

my computer, but I need an

34:31

informed team. And that's what I

34:33

have now. And that's where when

34:33

we hire people, is what we look

34:37

to build is a level of knowledge

34:37

base that allows people to make

34:44

informed decisions from a place

34:44

of knowledge, to have that base

34:49

of knowledge where then they

34:49

feel confident, troubleshooting

34:53

creatively problem solving, to

34:53

then make this farm operate. And

34:59

I think we're really Lucky as a

34:59

company, to be able to have the

35:02

financial resources from the

35:02

venture funding that we receive,

35:06

right, but to be able to have

35:06

the resources then that we can

35:09

offer to our staff so that we

35:09

can hire really intelligent

35:13

people to operate our farms.

35:13

Because if we're operating on a

35:18

shoestring budget, we can't

35:18

write, who are we hiring, we're

35:21

hiring anybody who will accept

35:21

the job? No, we have the

35:23

opportunity to be very selective

35:23

with who we bring in. Because

35:28

there are so many people vying

35:28

to get into this field. And we

35:32

can choose individuals who are

35:32

not only passionate, not only

35:36

informed, but like are willing

35:36

to do the work. And two are

35:41

looking to increase their their

35:41

base of knowledge. Which is it's

35:44

a beautiful thing. Honestly,

35:46

it truly is.

35:46

That's a in not the answer I

35:50

expected. But it's five times

35:50

better than anything I expected.

35:54

So I love that. Outside of just

35:54

the work thing. What inspires

36:00

you you talk to before we

36:00

started recording, you met our

36:04

friend Nick in common as in

36:04

bands. When in grade school? Do

36:09

you play an instrument? Are you

36:09

a musician? Do you listen to

36:13

music? Are you a runner? Like

36:13

what are the things that you

36:16

need to keep your head healthy

36:16

between the years so to speak,

36:19

to stay inspired and

36:19

rejuvenated?

36:22

Yeah, I mean, I

36:22

definitely have a really love

36:27

physical activity. So I work out

36:27

a lot, I do a lot of running. I

36:32

actually yesterday just bought a

36:32

new pair of basketball shoes,

36:35

I've been playing basketball at

36:35

the gym. So that's been a lot of

36:37

fun. But I I've probably roughly

36:37

on average, clocked about 20

36:41

miles a week running. So like

36:41

that, that's a big thing. So

36:45

besides those things that I

36:45

really love, I also then you

36:48

know, I have like a small

36:48

garden, on the roof of my

36:51

apartment, I really love my my

36:51

girlfriend, and I love the

36:54

outdoors. So we do a lot of

36:54

camping outdoors, we She's a

36:58

phenomenal cook. And so a lot of

36:58

the produce that I get to bring

37:01

home is prepared and just like

37:01

amazing ways, you know, really

37:04

allow me to like enjoy the

37:04

produce to like the highest

37:09

potential that like it could be.

37:09

So that's really, that's really

37:13

great. But you know, like, I

37:13

think also, again, this might

37:17

sound a little corny, but like,

37:17

the inspiration of just working

37:22

in agriculture and understanding

37:22

this larger context is

37:26

frequently looming over my work,

37:26

because I am telling you, and

37:31

this might be, you know, I

37:31

attributed partially to the

37:35

probably the amount of weed that

37:35

I smoke. But it's also the

37:39

transcendent nature, like our

37:39

entire lives are transcendent.

37:44

And I say that in this is that

37:44

we are finite beings, we are

37:49

finite, singular beings that are

37:49

only capable of having a finite

37:54

perspective of the shared

37:54

reality that we all have. But we

37:58

all have a tiny perspective of

37:58

that huge, enormous, we can't

38:04

even contemplate how large the

38:04

reality is that we share. Right?

38:08

So if if you operate from that

38:08

as a baseline, right, then

38:13

actually the majority of things

38:13

that are happening, are bigger

38:16

than a single person. Right. And

38:16

that's like all like, that's the

38:21

reality of it, whether or not

38:21

like we choose to acknowledge it

38:24

or not like that is the field in

38:24

which we're all playing. And so

38:28

once people can start to truly

38:28

internalize that, then you

38:34

become a transcendent being in

38:34

that, like you can start to make

38:39

decisions outside of yourself to

38:39

impact this enormous trajectory

38:45

that we are all sharing, and

38:45

we're all bound to. And I say

38:48

that with the caveat, because

38:48

like, I'm just a Joe Schmo, like

38:51

I'm normal people, I don't think

38:51

that I'm this transcendent being

38:56

in between, like, That's not the

38:56

thing. That's not the point, I'm

38:58

getting it. The point is that,

38:58

like, we're all going to die,

39:02

right? We all have this finite

39:02

time. And things will continue

39:07

on after us just as they

39:07

continued before us. And so the

39:11

healthy conclusion there from

39:11

like, a mental standpoint, is

39:15

that like, we are all

39:15

intertangled both willingly and

39:20

unwillingly. And so every

39:20

decision that we make, has an

39:25

adverse reaction. Right. And I'm

39:25

not just saying that from like a

39:29

physics standpoint, it is

39:29

physics, but like every single

39:32

thing that we do, has a reaction

39:32

that down the line can impact

39:37

other people in other ways. And

39:37

I don't think everything we do

39:40

here is like exactly spot on.

39:40

There's a lot of refinement that

39:42

needs to continue to happen. We

39:42

are operating in that mindset.

39:47

And as our culture more widely

39:47

starts to adopt those things and

39:52

as they become kind of ingrained

39:52

into our culture, that it

39:56

becomes easier for people to

39:56

internalize those sorts of

39:59

things. And then act from that

39:59

transcendent perspective, from

40:03

that omniscient perspective, to

40:03

be able to determine, Okay, what

40:08

do I want to make? My life? What

40:08

do I want my contribution to

40:12

that reality? What do I want

40:12

that to look like?

40:15

Beautiful. So I

40:15

almost said earlier, but but we

40:20

were kind of on another path. I

40:20

think that the majority of

40:24

people on this planet, let's

40:24

just say to make it simple 98%

40:27

of the people on this planet,

40:27

and it could be everywhere, I'm

40:31

not saying in any culture, or

40:31

any community are essentially

40:35

just concerned about what's

40:35

going to put food on their table

40:40

that day what their immediate

40:40

environment is. And so if they

40:44

were to turn on a light, or put

40:44

put extra gasoline in a car, or

40:49

drive a bigger car, and I'm not

40:49

even passing judgment on them,

40:52

but but they're not so concerned

40:52

with, you know, the health of

40:55

the planet is much or, you know,

40:55

they, they, they eat pork, and

40:59

they don't care where the pig

40:59

was grown. But then there's 2%,

41:04

who think differently, think

41:04

consciously about the greater

41:08

community that we're in,

41:10

you know, recently I

41:10

was in South Africa, visiting,

41:12

just like hanging out seeing a

41:12

bunch of things a couple of

41:15

years ago was in the Republic of

41:15

Georgia, seeing things

41:18

experiencing things meeting

41:18

people, right. And this shared

41:20

feeling is so pronounced. And

41:20

that F that so many people in

41:26

their geographic locations, and

41:26

their little bubbles, feel the

41:30

same sort of thing. And then to

41:30

the piece of the 98%, the 2%,

41:34

right is like there's also a

41:34

critical mass, that if the

41:38

structure is in place, people

41:38

will just go along with it.

41:41

Right? There's so many things that we just do, because structurally, it's easy for us

41:42

to do, I bought a car because

41:45

there are gas stations

41:45

everywhere. So I can get gas

41:47

when I need to go to the car,

41:47

whatever. And so like, then it's

41:50

like, how can we address those

41:50

systems, so that people don't

41:54

actually have to think about

41:54

consuming food from a

41:58

responsible source that it's

41:58

like, so embedded right, that

42:01

maybe it's that's the 2% that

42:01

you're talking about is like who

42:03

are the people that then are

42:03

helping to implement these

42:06

systems of care from a system a

42:06

place of responsible action,

42:12

that then for the people who

42:12

want to actively participate?

42:15

Great, let's bring them in,

42:15

let's get more insights, more

42:18

perspectives, but for the people

42:18

who are kind of indifferent to

42:20

it? What's the critical mass

42:20

that it's like, we can have the

42:24

people actively doing this, and

42:24

then the rest of people are just

42:26

going to kind of follow along

42:26

because they're indifferent to

42:28

it. And we'll get food from

42:28

here. If it's easy for them.

42:32

We'll get food from here if it's easy for them.

42:34

Alex, let's, let's

42:34

put a bow on this and wrap it up

42:38

a little bit. Tell me what

42:38

what's the next year look like

42:42

for you in square roots? And

42:42

what can we expect from from

42:47

there? Yeah, I mean,

42:47

so from a square roots business

42:50

perspective is like we are

42:50

constantly refining our farm

42:55

system. So at this point, what

42:55

about while I'm talking to you,

42:59

we're already like,

42:59

understanding what ways we can

43:02

change our farm system to make

43:02

our operation more effective to

43:07

be more water, like lower, I

43:07

should say, increase our water,

43:11

you should use water use

43:11

efficiency, the way in which

43:15

like, we can reach more

43:15

communities around the country.

43:19

So in the next year, you know,

43:19

ideally, square roots, you know,

43:23

we currently have four farm

43:23

locations, in the next year, we

43:29

should have close to eight. And

43:29

they will be following a model

43:34

that like, right allows us to

43:34

scale up because we are

43:38

installing confined space farms.

43:38

And that's really profound just

43:44

because like we also have

43:44

funding and meaning that there

43:47

are people with money who are

43:47

interested and acknowledge the

43:51

power that that this idea has,

43:51

right. And so the proliferation

43:56

of that will be exponential. So

43:56

that's an expectation 100% I

44:02

think from a more personal

44:02

standpoint, in relation to

44:05

square roots is that as the farm

44:05

manager on our Brooklyn campus,

44:09

I've been given a lot of

44:09

autonomy to not only dictate

44:13

like our production plans, and

44:13

what that looks like and, and I

44:16

get really excited as well, I'll

44:16

spare you the details. But I get

44:20

to kind of head our integrated

44:20

pest management or IPM practices

44:25

here on site. And there's a lot

44:25

of like really incredible. A lot

44:30

of really incredible things

44:30

going on. I'll just drop one

44:33

term for anybody who's listening

44:33

in might want to look into this

44:36

fig mo morphogenesis. And in

44:36

brief, it's the mostly unknown

44:42

mechanisms at this point in time

44:42

unknown to humans, mechanisms

44:46

inside plants that are receptive

44:46

to physical touch. So whether

44:51

that's animals passing them in

44:51

the wild, whether it's air

44:54

temperature, whether it's water,

44:54

like we have discovered actually

44:57

certain frequencies, that plants

44:57

respond to and will perform at a

45:02

higher biological level when

45:02

exposed to these frequencies,

45:06

right? Everything's a vibration.

45:06

So like, Yeah, well, you just

45:08

talked about that. So that's

45:08

incredible, right? So that's

45:11

really cool. And so I like that.

45:11

And so we're going to be able to

45:13

do like some really cool things,

45:13

collecting data around all these

45:20

pest management practices that

45:20

allow us to not use chemicals to

45:25

still, you know, dictate, like

45:25

the levels of pests that we have

45:28

in our systems, and then change

45:28

things that like, allow us to

45:32

counterbalance that. And so also

45:32

one thing that I'm excited for

45:36

that like, we are starting to

45:36

kind of understand how we can

45:39

engage with a number of other

45:39

community entities and impact

45:44

that behind me behind one of our

45:44

farms, there's a weekly food

45:47

drive that like that formerly

45:47

incarcerated people are now like

45:52

leading they have it's a food

45:52

truck that they packaged meals

45:56

for people in the community to just come and pick up meals. So we donate to them every week, we

45:58

donate to a number of different

46:01

community farm community fridges

46:01

around the neighborhood. But we

46:05

also are looking to host a

46:05

number of events. Here, I'm

46:10

talking right now with a number

46:10

of friends of mine who are

46:13

comedians here in New York. And

46:13

back at the farm in Chicago, we

46:16

did things like this too. But we

46:16

want to bring a comedy show here

46:19

and have our backdrop being you

46:19

know, our open containers that

46:23

people can see into our farms,

46:23

people then can also engage in

46:26

the social events that allow

46:26

them to be in close proximity

46:30

just to the farm to start the

46:30

conversation around that we

46:32

don't need it to be focused on

46:32

this is the center there is

46:35

comedy. Exactly. Right, exactly.

46:35

And all these people are drawn

46:39

to that. And all these people

46:39

maybe don't even know yet they

46:41

want to engage. And we can

46:41

phrase it as right and what

46:45

we're looking to do is like the

46:45

admission fee is some sort of

46:50

food donation that then we'll

46:50

work with our partners to give

46:53

that food but then it's also

46:53

people can engage socially with

46:56

us in a less conventional way.

46:56

But start that conversation

47:00

because the proliferation of

47:00

these ideas, not just in

47:04

agriculture, but in human rights

47:04

and and, you know, justice for

47:10

people of color, housing,

47:10

justice, medical equality, that

47:15

like those things, starting

47:15

those conversations is pivotal

47:19

to the success of our species

47:19

moving forward.

47:25

From more

47:25

information or about employment

47:27

opportunities, look for square

47:27

roots on their Instagram page

47:32

square roots grow, or on their

47:32

website at square roots.

47:36

grow.com. Thank you, Alex. I

47:36

look forward to seeing square

47:41

roots with my own two eyes very

47:41

soon. Thanks for visiting tools

47:45

for nomads and up close and

47:45

insightful look into the lives

47:49

and habits of passionate and

47:49

creatively prolific people like

47:53

Alex Pate, who embrace and

47:53

cherish the nomadic lifestyle.

47:58

Be sure to subscribe, like and

47:58

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