0:10

You don't have to be sixty,

0:12

wealthy, you

0:14

know, exerted a mogo to

0:19

have a story that's valid enough to be told.

0:21

Right. And and I had to tell myself that

0:23

through this process. I mean, my brother even

0:25

over Christmas said to me

0:27

dude. Elaine, why are you riding a why are you riding

0:29

a autobiography? I love Toure girls, you do.

0:32

He's like, dude. Yeah. And yeah. I

0:34

like even at this point of my I mean, at this point

0:36

of my career, he's, like, the only that he will just chop

0:38

me down to size real fast and just be

0:40

like,

0:40

he's like, dude, why are you in an autobiography? Isn't

0:42

that like something old people do? Like

0:46

But you know, but but but he's the older

0:48

younger brother. He's

0:48

older than me. And he and he didn't mean it to

0:50

be like hurtful. But he's

0:52

but he's not understanding the

0:55

history of black literature, which is

0:57

quite often your autobiography is

1:00

the first book that you publish, and you may

1:02

publish it twenties or your thirties

1:04

or whatever, but like, I had to tell

1:06

my story. You know, my name is Richard Wright.

1:08

My name is, you know, Claude Brown.

1:10

My name is whatever. You know you

1:12

know, I tell my story first before

1:15

I could tell you anything else. Oh,

1:17

that's so powerful. That when you put

1:19

it like that, when you put this book, you

1:22

know, in this, like,

1:24

larger trajectory of black -- Black. -- monoclonal

1:26

geography.

1:26

Yes. hundred and fifty years old, Micah.

1:29

Thank you. That I'm gonna take that with me because I

1:31

was, like, my best comeback was in the moment.

1:34

Didn't even call them out of my geographies anymore.

1:36

You asshole. And

1:40

I just, like, burst into tears. So now

1:43

I have a better I can come back with some

1:45

some weight on it. But, no, III

1:47

think that's powerful when you put it into perspective

1:50

like that. And

1:52

III just think, like, listen,

1:55

you don't have to be Toure

1:57

later I realized I was like, that's the patriarchy talking.

2:01

You don't see the value yet

2:04

in the voice of a young black woman,

2:06

and that's okay. You're not

2:09

my audience. I'm not

2:11

speaking to you. And I do think that's rule number

2:13

one, like, right

2:15

for Toure audience.

2:19

Elaine WelterothI is fierce

2:21

and fabulous. She's got amazing

2:23

hair, an incredible sense of style, intelligence,

2:26

grace, humility, and class. She's

2:28

the total package. That's why

2:30

Anna Wentworth shows her to become the editor

2:33

in chief of teen vogue. Now, you

2:35

might think the day you become the editor in

2:37

chief of teen vogue when you're twenty nine

2:39

years old is one of the best days of your life

2:41

and it was But behind the

2:43

scenes, things were a hot mess.

2:46

Today, you're gonna hear the whole backstory

2:49

as well as what Elaine did when she was in the

2:51

halls of Condenas that helped propel her

2:53

to that top spot and how she handled

2:55

herself while she was there. She's inspiring.

2:58

She's amazing. She's the author of a

3:00

great new memoir called Toure than Enough,

3:02

and she is way more than enough.

3:05

It's my homie Elaine WelterothI

3:07

on show. Part

3:17

of what both of us have done is

3:19

be able to go into super

3:21

white spaces -- Mhmm. -- and succeed

3:24

and carve out our own lane

3:26

and our own, you know, come with our

3:28

own personality --

3:29

Mhmm. -- and succeed.

3:32

How did you do it? And what

3:34

advice do you have for others who are

3:36

like

3:38

treading that road? Because it's hard.

3:40

It is hard. And I don't think there's

3:42

one blueprint or one,

3:44

like, there's no magical

3:47

answer to that question. I

3:49

think it's a

3:51

journey to figure out

3:54

how to be your

3:57

authentic self, which we say all the time.

3:59

Again, these platitudes I

4:01

think it's a journey to figure out who you are

4:03

and what you have to say and how to say it

4:05

in a way where people will listen to

4:07

you, especially in predominantly white

4:09

spaces as a as a black professional.

4:12

Mhmm.

4:12

We, you know, that concept of double consciousness

4:15

is very real and very present

4:17

every day. Mhmm. And

4:19

so I think the

4:21

absolute saving

4:24

grace for me and the best advice I can give is

4:26

to build your tribe. Whether

4:29

it's at the office or outside

4:31

of the office, you need you need

4:33

people who see you. Yes.

4:36

Who you can who can

4:38

serve as a sounding board for your ideas

4:40

and

4:42

who can support you behind the scenes because

4:44

you won't always find that around

4:46

the table. I mean, you'll be in a

4:48

meeting or walking through the hall, someone

4:51

micrograsses,

4:52

you're pissed off, you

4:54

can't do anything with that energy

4:57

in the office. It's

4:58

not productive. It's not productive.

4:59

And, you you know, and it's not big enough that you

5:01

can go to HR, you can go to

5:02

your boss, that and you feel

5:05

And good luck with HR. Good luck with HR.

5:07

And you feel I

5:10

would feel should've, like,

5:13

weakened, like, a loser and, like, I had failed

5:15

black people, but I didn't say

5:17

anything. But if I'd say what I really wanna say,

5:19

I would've got five. Yeah. You would choose your battles. Yeah.

5:21

That is enough. That's that is a key

5:23

piece of advice. You have to choose your battles. There

5:25

are some things that are

5:28

worth the war and other things

5:30

you gotta take it home and crumble and

5:33

strategize. I mean, when you're in the meeting

5:35

and they and they say, So when

5:38

is the editor in chief gonna get here? Mhmm.

5:40

And you have to delicately

5:43

take a deep breath in, not insult

5:45

her, polately let her know, I'm

5:47

yet her chief, not embarrassed her because you still

5:49

wanna do business with her even though now

5:51

you're like

5:52

Right. How do you like you know,

5:54

I mean, how do you

5:55

handle that? Yeah. I mean, you could

5:57

answer that. I'm sure I'm sure you've dealt

5:59

with that kind of thing so

6:01

many times, and that's what's so black

6:03

people are so resilient. Mhmm.

6:06

Our job is to take care of you. Mhmm.

6:09

But it beats you down. And

6:11

even when you hurt me, I gotta protect you

6:13

and we do it and still we rise. Right?

6:15

So, yeah, those kinds of moments happened

6:18

to me and I shared them in

6:20

the book because think it's important that

6:22

people on both sides of those awkward exchanges

6:26

see themselves in it. Mhmm. And and I

6:28

I hope that people the kinds of people

6:30

who are on the other end of that awkward exchange

6:35

for me. Like, the the kinds of people who put black

6:37

folks in that position, I hope they read this book, and

6:39

I hope they can see themselves on the other side, and

6:41

and I hope that it increases the emphasis

6:43

and the understanding for what

6:47

it feels like to be put in that position.

6:49

We but I but I also wanted to say I

6:51

feel like I I also

6:53

shared those moments because they're not proud moments

6:55

for me. Like, I would have I would

6:57

handle those kinds of micro

7:00

aggressive moments very differently

7:02

now because I've found my voice. And I think

7:04

that So how would you handle it now? I think

7:06

I would I think I would have

7:08

I would think I would be less concerned with the other person's

7:10

comfort

7:11

now.

7:11

Okay. And don't think that it's my responsibility

7:14

to take care of everyone in the room. And I think

7:16

that actually sometimes those are opportunities those

7:19

are opportunities for

7:22

the other person to experience

7:24

the discomfort that they've

7:25

created. What if it cost you

7:28

the business. Well, you We were trying to

7:30

do a deal. I'm trying to get hired. I'm trying to stay

7:32

here. Whatever it may be. Yeah.

7:34

And you kinda tweak somebody because

7:36

they've

7:37

Right.

7:37

And so did you You kind of

7:39

have to take a breath and do a a

7:41

quick, you know, cost

7:43

benefit analysis in your mind?

7:45

Is this a war worth fighting?

7:48

Or is this a little battle I gotta grumble

7:50

about later? Or do I say something after I think

7:52

tone matters so much. Mhmm.

7:54

Sometimes it's just easier for

7:56

you personally Toure

7:58

for your own psyche, for your own self care,

8:01

to end the moment just make it make

8:03

light of it, make people

8:05

laugh, and move on because sometimes that's

8:07

a demonstration of real power.

8:10

Interesting.

8:11

And I think, you know, so,

8:13

like, the moment where I share

8:15

in the book, who in the woman in the middle

8:18

in the Midwest, all white

8:20

office. I walk in and she says to me,

8:22

oh, thank you so much for being here. You

8:25

know, they've had you run it all around here like

8:28

a And

8:30

then all the oxygen in

8:32

the room just evaporates.

8:35

Right. And and it just feels like a spotlight

8:37

is on me. Right. What are you gonna

8:39

do? Right. Enter, I'm sure you've

8:41

been in a similar situation. Maybe

8:44

what maybe they didn't call you a slave, but, you know,

8:46

that would be a little overt, but In

8:48

that moment, I and, you know, I'm

8:50

just like, what do I do here? What do I do

8:52

here? I'm extremely uncomfortable.

8:55

I'm not like that didn't happen. Keep moving. Today,

8:58

Elaine two thousand nineteen, there's

9:01

no way I would not Toure

9:03

was no way I would handle it that way. I would

9:05

What'd you

9:06

do? Today, I would

9:08

I would allow the pregnant pause

9:10

to persist.

9:13

Just let her drive. I would just let her

9:15

feel that one. We're gonna sit at

9:17

this. We're just gonna sit in this wrecking pot.

9:20

And I will let you think out what to say next.

9:22

Right. Right. Right. I'm

9:24

gonna turn the spotlight that's on me

9:26

Toure

9:27

you.

9:27

Right. And let's let you figure out how to get

9:29

yourself out of the corner you put yourself versus

9:32

me come in to rescue you. Right.

9:34

So that I I think there's, like, a

9:36

a paradigm switch that's happened, but a

9:38

paradigm shift that's happened. But I it's

9:40

it's not just because, you know,

9:43

I've grown up and I've found my voice. It's because

9:45

also the world

9:47

has changed so much even in the last five years.

9:50

Mhmm. And the conversations that we're

9:52

having are so different now than they were then

9:54

about race and about microaggressions

9:56

and about representation, diversity, inclusion.

9:58

Like, we're finally having conversations where

10:01

I think that white

10:03

people in positions of power

10:05

are more prepared to have these kinds of

10:08

confrontations in the

10:09

moment. And they're not, they should be.

10:11

They should. conversations

10:12

are in the ether. But, like, one of the things

10:14

you talk about, you're you're you're

10:16

you're doing the beauty work and you noticed

10:18

that the the white woman doesn't

10:20

know anything about black beauty

10:22

standards. So it's like, I

10:25

have to know your stuff. You're at this level.

10:27

You don't have to know I mean, surely,

10:29

there are black consumers of teen

10:31

vogue and vogue, and you're just what

10:33

what is it? Ten percent of black or

10:35

of the readership is black? Right? And you don't

10:37

pay any attention to what? I

10:39

mean, this is a significant group. Right? And

10:41

increasing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No.

10:43

I mean, that's a perfect example of you

10:45

know, the kind of latent racism that

10:47

we normalize in corporate America. Mhmm.

10:50

And I think it's important to shine a light on

10:52

it so that we think more critically

10:54

about that and go, oof. So You're

10:56

right. That is that ain't really that's not right.

10:58

That's not right. Ash as a white beauty

11:01

editor should be expected to

11:04

put myself in the position of my

11:06

reader. And my reader is not

11:08

exactly just like me.

11:09

Right. You know? And and as

11:11

a black editor, I have to do that

11:13

every day. Right. Right. Right. Right.

11:17

What are your rules for

11:19

surviving and thriving

11:22

in these white corporate spaces. What

11:24

what does Elaine

11:26

Toure Elaine

11:27

Onto E. -- tell the children

11:29

that they need to Onto E. Tell the children.

11:33

Well, let's see. What have I

11:35

already Because I think I I think I wanna recap

11:37

too. Take

11:39

your battles. Mhmm. Find

11:42

your tribe. Find

11:46

your voice. Don't save them.

11:49

Oh, yes. Don't save

11:51

them. That's a

11:53

good one. And I

12:02

think I think we have

12:04

to and this is gonna sound like a platitude.

12:07

But I really think we need to own our power

12:10

and not wait for someone to give it

12:12

to us. Okay. I think we don't like,

12:18

sometimes we so what I mean by

12:20

that is we

12:22

have been conditioned to assimilate

12:25

in order to be accepted and

12:28

to get promoted --

12:29

Yeah. -- and to be heard and seen in

12:31

these white spaces. But

12:35

what we need to remember is that we are

12:37

bringing something valuable to

12:40

every room that we step into. And

12:43

we are doing disservice to the organization,

12:46

to the group that we're a part of.

12:48

If we're not bringing our full authentic

12:50

self to the table, our culture

12:53

is rich -- Mhmm. -- and our perspectives

12:56

are dynamic, and they are missing

12:58

from the conversation. So part

13:00

of your contribution requires

13:03

you to lean into really who

13:06

you are and to not leave it outside of

13:08

the room. Just because you've been conditioned

13:10

by our society to feel like it's not

13:12

good enough. It's not worthy enough. It doesn't

13:14

fit here. Mhmm. Like, we it's our

13:17

responsibility to bring it in and bring it to

13:19

the table. And it takes time to practice how

13:21

to how to figure out

13:23

how to find your voice and how to insert your

13:25

culture and to stand up for your people

13:27

and all that

13:28

stuff. It takes time to figure out how to do it

13:30

but when you do, there's power in

13:32

that. And actually, the room

13:34

the culture of the room shifts when

13:36

you decide to bring all of you. There's

13:38

a great moment though where where you're

13:40

struggling within something and

13:42

you call a rich white man. And he

13:44

says, just do it. Yeah. And you're like,

13:46

I'm uncomfortable doing that, and he says, just

13:49

do it.

13:49

Right. Don't think about what they're gonna say. Right.

13:51

Right. Right. And it's like, That's a privilege.

13:54

That's a privilege mindset. Yes.

13:55

But I'm gonna to inherit that. But I'm my parents.

13:57

Right. Right. Right.

13:58

We're in hair Toure the opposite. I'm

13:59

gonna do that. I'm gonna do what privilege

14:01

white man would do

14:02

-- Right.

14:03

-- and see what happens.

14:04

Toure? Well, those allies are really important

14:06

in those moments for sure. I

14:08

was really I remember coaching myself the night before

14:11

a big negotiation, like, with this

14:13

privileged white Jewish man

14:17

And he, you know, I was so

14:19

nervous about asking for what I felt I

14:21

deserved. And I

14:24

he just modeled for me complete

14:27

confidence. Like, ask

14:29

for what you think you deserve. Don't worry

14:31

about what they Tell

14:32

them my number. Just tell them the number. And I was

14:34

just like, But what if what if at every time

14:36

I say, what if what if in thinking about the other side?

14:39

Stop thinking about what they're gonna say, do it

14:41

anyway. And imagine

14:43

if we were raised with that. I mean,

14:45

it would be delusional confidence for

14:47

black folks Toure that

14:50

is I mean, I wanted

14:52

about some of that. I wanted to try some of

14:54

that on from for size, and it wasn't easy.

14:56

It's literally, like, unlearning everything you've

14:58

learned as survival tactics -- Yeah. -- as

15:00

a black person. Yeah. You know, But

15:04

I think you got it's all a part

15:06

of that umbrella of owning your

15:08

power. Sometimes you have to borrow the privilege

15:10

mindset and put it on. And

15:12

see how it works. I

15:13

mean, it's it's You've talked a lot

15:15

today about your

15:17

growth from the person who

15:21

you talk about in

15:22

the book. And there was a moment I had an interesting

15:24

conversation with my wife

15:26

because when you are

15:29

OFFERED THE BEAUTY DIRECTOR JOB

15:32

AT TINVO, YOU SAID NO.

15:34

WHEN I WAS OFFERED THE BEAUTY, Oh, YET, Yeah. You

15:36

get you. Sorry. Yeah. And you you

15:38

said, I'm not prepared. I

15:41

am not ready for this

15:43

job. And I'm sitting there going

15:45

what is she talking about? What

15:46

man in America, have you ever turned

15:49

down? Right.

15:49

Just get in there and you'll see me now.

15:52

Right. Bigger salary. I'm smart.

15:54

I can read. I have friends. I can

15:56

figure it out. And I'll figure it

15:58

out. And my wife is

15:59

like, that's not how a

16:01

woman would look at it. And I'm like,

16:03

that's not how we were socialized. Right.

16:05

Right. Right. Right. Thankfully,

16:08

you they they show you into the job anyway.

16:11

Right. Your career keeps ascending. But

16:13

-- Mhmm. -- is that

16:15

a young mindset would And

16:17

is there any job that Elaine now

16:19

would say, I'm not ready. I'm gonna say no,

16:21

even though it's an amazing promotion. Would you do

16:24

you now feel like I can do anything?

16:26

You know, I do feel like

16:29

I have become friends with fear now

16:32

where Interesting. I don't, like,

16:35

I don't require, like, an absence of fear

16:37

to move forward into

16:39

a challenge -- Yeah. -- the way I used to.

16:43

But I do think that it's

16:45

a part of the female experience to

16:48

question yourself because of how

16:50

we have been conditioned. For

16:53

generations. And I and

16:56

I just I I'm just glad now that

16:58

I have a network of women

17:00

who I can turn to and say,

17:03

I'm scared. And

17:05

he and I'm doubting myself. And

17:07

here's why. Am I

17:09

crazy? Should I do this? What do

17:12

you think? And on the other

17:14

side, I I have women who I

17:16

back and admire and who've done in credit books or

17:18

nay things who can reflect my

17:21

power back to me and

17:24

check that check that self doubt and

17:26

help me push past it. And

17:28

and that's why I say having a tribe of

17:30

women around you, women of color if

17:33

you are a women of color who see you and

17:35

see your value and can remind you of it when

17:37

you forget it. I think that's the thing. I

17:39

don't think that we should you

17:41

know, there there's there's

17:43

a myth I think that in order to be successful

17:46

and powerful as a woman that

17:48

you have to be fearless. don't think

17:50

fearlessness. It's possible. Is

17:53

it possible? don't think it exists. I don't think

17:55

it's real. think that we all experience fear as

17:57

humans. Yeah. But it's about how

17:59

you dance with fear and that relationship

18:01

that you have with fear. And I think that can change.

18:04

Interesting. Over time. But

18:06

I'm sure there are still opportunities that someone could

18:08

present and I'd be

18:09

like, I

18:10

don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

18:11

Me? No? I

18:14

don't know.

18:14

I think you could do anything.

18:16

Want y'all call you next time. You should When I

18:18

next time I feel that, I'm gonna call you.

18:19

You should call me out. Do

18:21

you want you? A laywell truck? You could do anything,

18:23

girl, what? Yes. I

18:25

wanna talk about what for me is

18:28

the central awesome story of the

18:29

book. But before

18:30

we get to how you got to Tien Vogue,

18:33

I would be the

18:33

head of Tien Vogue. There's

18:35

so much in this book about hair

18:38

and the politics of hair and

18:40

the beauty of hair and

18:43

just before we start diving into that,

18:45

what is the hair care regimen?

18:47

Because you are looking fantastic and

18:49

fabulous. Again today. I

18:52

mean, it's like this

18:52

great lion's mane of like

18:55

blonde and brown and curls

18:57

and, like, it it it's it's

18:59

so it's so modern

19:02

and proud. And right, like, you know, black

19:04

is beautiful, Angela Davis, but, like,

19:06

modern and, like, so I love it. I love

19:08

the way you show up with your hair. Thank

19:11

you. And and and when you were introduced

19:13

as the editor chief of Team Vogan,

19:16

like, here's this picture. I mean, like,

19:18

people were celebrating not just because

19:20

a an African American person

19:22

had that

19:23

job, but, like, look, she's

19:25

down. She's like,

19:27

oh, hey. Look at his hair. My god.

19:31

And and and it was a huge source of pride for

19:33

so many people. Mhmm. I had I didn't

19:35

know who you were before you got the

19:37

job, but I was proud to. Mhmm.

19:38

Oh my god. How did you find out?

19:40

Oh, god. How did it reach me? You know, how

19:42

reached

19:42

me is I saw a

19:44

tweet that said and is

19:47

one of the greatest tweets ever. Mhmm.

19:50

The person said most

19:52

of the and I'm gonna paraphrase it a little bit. Most

19:54

of the media Most media,

19:56

Colin, how do we deal with Trump? Team

19:58

Vogue, hold my

19:59

beer. And I was like, Team

20:02

Vogue. What? And then I started Google,

20:04

like, Oh, shit. Elaine. Oh, shit.

20:06

She's awesome. Like, wow. Look at this. Oh, my

20:08

god. Team focused making people

20:09

proud. Oh my god. Wow. So

20:11

that's how it started for me, but

20:14

what is the hair care about? It is so funny, by the way,

20:16

to hear a man's perspective on

20:19

hair, like, on on a woman's hair

20:21

and the fact that you're even remarking on

20:23

it. I'm like, your your wife trained you well.

20:26

I think I was into hair before

20:29

her.

20:29

Oh, you're trying to are you trying to trying to

20:31

take credit for this. Well, no. I mean, like, you know,

20:33

I mean, look, you know, I'm I'm born in nineteen seventy

20:36

one. Right? I grew up, right,

20:38

watch certain person, dance

20:40

with his brothers and sisters. So it's like,

20:42

you know, big hair was like super

20:44

important and valuable and, like,

20:46

mean, you know, my dad always my dad was

20:48

gray from when he was eighteen.

20:51

Right? But he had this great afro.

20:53

Right? So he stood out because he has this

20:55

gray afro even though he's forty or fifty

20:57

or whatever is going through. That's that's

21:00

iconic. Yeah. No. It it it

21:02

really was, like, way before he should have been gray.

21:05

And so

21:06

yeah. I mean, I always wanted to have as much hair as

21:08

I possibly Yeah. Yeah.

21:10

Wait. Are you mixed race? I am not.

21:12

My father was lighter

21:14

than you are, but I'm

21:16

not mixed.

21:17

Okay. But he had a big gray

21:20

apron. Yes. Oh my god. That's

21:22

kinda great. So let's see. What's

21:24

the question? My hair, I think it's so interesting.

21:26

I think there's always first

21:28

of all, we know the black hair is extremely

21:31

politicized. Mhmm. So by

21:34

default, it becomes

21:36

an extension of your identity as a black woman.

21:38

Mhmm. And for me looking back

21:41

over my career, it's like it's it's

21:43

almost mirrored my journey

21:47

of getting acquainted with myself. Mhmm.

21:49

So there have been times where it's, like,

21:51

where I've feel like I've had to

21:54

shrink and my hair shrinks along

21:56

with me. Mhmm. And then there are times

21:58

where I feel powerful

22:01

and strong, and and my hair

22:03

reflects that. It's big. Mhmm. And

22:06

and I like, throughout my teen

22:08

vogue trajectory, in particular, it's

22:10

got bigger and bigger and bigger. And

22:12

bigger. And now it's just huge. And

22:14

I think it really does it it's sort of it's

22:16

weird. You don't think about it consciously, of course.

22:19

But it is sort of

22:21

it is about taking up space. And

22:24

it is about kind

22:27

of claiming claiming

22:29

kinda like what's yours

22:32

is enough. It's saying what's mine, what I

22:34

was born with, is enough. Mhmm. Mhmm.

22:37

And and it kinda

22:39

it's one of those things that's like, you you train

22:41

people, you train people how

22:44

to treat you, you train people how to see

22:46

you. You train people how to interact

22:48

with you by how you show

22:50

up. And by saying, I walk into

22:53

the room with my natural hair. It's like, this is

22:55

I'm on a I am onapologetic

22:57

and and you will not touch it.

23:00

Mhmm. And, you know, like, there are certain rules of engagement

23:02

with natural hair and Did you

23:04

think about straightening it? To go into

23:06

catine vocal I definitely interviewed

23:08

with it, slipped back into a

23:10

tight little bun. That was my interview hair.

23:12

Okay. Black girls know about the interview

23:15

hair.

23:15

Yeah. It's

23:15

different from the everyday hair. No.

23:17

No. Because you're not sure what you're dealing with. So

23:19

you go in and you go with the safe hair just in

23:21

case it distracts. From your resume.

23:23

And so, you know, I expect

23:26

coming through the they're coming up through the

23:28

ranks at glamour, in particular,

23:30

I felt like that was a part of my career I was

23:32

really like I was like

23:35

she she was assimilating. She was wearing khakis

23:37

and pearls and, you know, I was kinda keeping

23:39

my hair in a tight bun. Of course, I still wore

23:41

my curls, but I was just much more conscious

23:44

of, you know, the

23:46

way I looked and what that might communicate. Mhmm.

23:48

And wanting to be

23:50

safe and approachable and all that kind of stuff. And it just

23:52

sort of over time as I got comfortable with myself

23:55

and what I had to say in the world as a journalist

23:57

as a

23:58

storyteller. It just kinda went out to go. And I was

24:00

just, like, the bigger and the better. I just

24:02

yeah.

24:02

When you said a similarity

24:04

Particularly big today.

24:05

What is the what is the regimen? Oh, yeah. The regimen.

24:09

Well, actually, my

24:11

regimen is I do not shampoo

24:13

my hair. Okay. Actually, I -- Okay.

24:16

-- as a result. Very rarely. Unless I have a ton

24:18

of product build up, then I usually don't shampoo

24:21

with a traditional shampoo. Okay. I

24:23

And this is not novel for anyone who has natural hair,

24:25

so I'm not trying to pretend like this is like something you've

24:28

never heard before, but I co wash. So

24:30

I wash my hair with a conditioner. And

24:32

I finger Koma in the shower. Okay.

24:35

And then I use Diva

24:37

Curl styling cream. That is

24:39

my go to That is my that

24:41

is the singular product I use. I am very low

24:43

thickness when it comes to my hair. I do not have a lot of

24:45

time to be dealing with it. So I use

24:47

this one product. I put it all through my

24:49

hair whenever I do rinse it and do the whole

24:51

cool washing thing, which by the way is like an Olympic

24:54

sport. It takes so

24:56

much time. My arms are burning. It

24:58

depends on how long I'm waiting. And I have a I have

25:00

a tendency of letting it go a little bit too long.

25:03

And the kitchen is it is

25:05

it is hot back

25:06

there. Right. You know, like, you can't

25:08

really put your fingers to it sometimes I have some dreadlocks

25:10

forming in the back.

25:11

Oh, no doubt.

25:11

So if I

25:12

let it go too far, it takes a really, really, really

25:14

long time.

25:15

I don't want to separate Toure much because

25:17

that's not I can't look either. Yeah. And,

25:19

like, I also will say it's first and second

25:21

day are not I mean, those are those are

25:23

the boring

25:23

days. Like, your hair is just it's almost too springy

25:25

and flat. I love it when

25:27

it's

25:27

little bit dirtier.

25:28

Mhmm. I

25:28

love it when it's like, fourth

25:31

day --

25:31

Yeah. -- third fourth day because I like a little frizz.

25:34

I like when it's big.

25:43

Influencer. It's a word that gets

25:45

tossed around a lot these days. There

25:47

is a woman who went the distance, who

25:50

broke ground as the first Toure

25:52

influencer by living a

25:54

remarkable life. Her name

25:57

Elizabeth Taylor. I'm

26:00

Katie Perry. This is

26:02

the story of the original influencer.

26:04

This is Elizabeth the

26:06

first.

26:09

Elizabeth the first, the podcast

26:11

wherever you listen.

26:15

The central story for me in this book that

26:17

really leapt off the page that

26:19

I really underlined is this really powerful

26:22

Toure. Was when you were getting the

26:24

editor in chief job -- Mhmm. -- a teen folk.

26:27

And from the outside, it was like, oh

26:29

my god. Coronation so exciting.

26:31

Hey. But he was extraordinarily emotional

26:34

and complex for you. Can

26:37

you tell the story of what

26:39

happened and how you're feeling as

26:41

you're going through it because it's it's a heavy

26:43

sort of corporate moment.

26:45

Mhmm. Well, We

26:49

love a celebration.

26:51

We love as a culture. We

26:53

love to

26:53

see first. We love

26:56

to see each other when, and I think that's great.

27:00

I love to see my sisters win Toure,

27:02

but I think we

27:04

often, therefore, do not feel like

27:06

they're space to talk about the

27:10

underside of dreams realized as

27:12

black people who are Toure.

27:15

as Shonda Rhyme says in her book,

27:17

first only different FOD. I

27:21

think when the conversation ends at the

27:23

celebration, it it

27:25

leaves those who are in these roles to feel

27:27

isolated -- Mhmm. -- because there's

27:29

but only so much space to to

27:35

there's only so much of the story that gets told.

27:37

Right? And you're meant to just

27:39

be grateful and make the best of it. And

27:43

be excellent. Work four

27:45

times as hard as the next person in

27:47

that role and you just do the work. That's

27:49

sort of the mandate

27:52

for somebody who is first only indifferent. And

27:57

I learned that that I learned that,

27:59

you know, for

28:02

for me, when I got this job, you know, I had

28:04

been working at Teamwork for a while. We had been

28:06

doing some really kind of culture

28:09

shifting work that was

28:11

resonating and there was momentum building.

28:13

And we were so all of

28:15

us at at teen book were really proud of the work that

28:17

we're putting out into the world. And

28:21

so when I got promoted, Toure

28:24

this interesting moment where it was there was duality

28:27

to to this experience for me.

28:30

You know, what the public

28:32

saw is that I got this great promotion. Teen

28:34

Vogue promoted this young black

28:36

girl. To run it. And it was

28:38

the youngest writer

28:40

in Conde history. And

28:42

she's black. Yes. And It's a

28:45

win for the culture. Yes. And, you

28:47

know, and black Twitter, you

28:49

know, went off. It everyone was

28:51

so excited. You saw the tweet and, you know,

28:53

my phone blew up. But

28:55

behind the scenes, there was another reality that

28:57

I was living where Certainly, I

29:00

was excited about getting this opportunity,

29:03

especially at a moment where there was so much

29:05

momentum and there was so much

29:08

work to be done and I felt like this

29:10

was my my job to have.

29:12

There was so much for me to say. And

29:14

yet, you know, when I was offered the opportunity,

29:17

it came with sort of

29:19

a it felt like I was put in a compromising

29:21

position

29:23

because I was offered it alongside two other

29:25

people who -- Mhmm. -- we've been working together

29:27

and So

29:28

it's gonna be a tri part type leadership

29:31

something thinking. Right.

29:33

And it was sort of, like, you know,

29:36

signed signed this form

29:39

we're gonna announce this in forty

29:41

minutes. And

29:42

there's no negotiation. You know,

29:44

no opportunity to talk about it.

29:47

Yes. It was it was so was tricky.

29:49

And you say you weren't thrilled with the salary

29:51

bump. I'm better achieved

29:53

now. This is not what this is it? Supposed

29:56

to be more than this? Yeah.

29:58

And I think what that

30:02

in the moment III didn't

30:05

I wasn't prepared with the tools to

30:07

to be able to negotiate for

30:09

myself or to even know how to handle that situation.

30:13

I certainly wanted the opportunity. I was certainly

30:15

grateful for the opportunity. But the

30:18

circumstances around that opportunity put

30:20

me in an uncomfortable position. And

30:23

I was sort of put in this spot

30:25

where it was like,

30:28

take it as it is

30:30

or leave it. And you have, like, forty

30:32

minutes to figure that out. And

30:35

their press release is gonna go out one way.

30:37

Either way, the press release will go out with your name

30:39

or without your name. And it was sort of

30:41

this on,

30:45

like, sort of re like, it was a it

30:47

it put me it it it was so surprising

30:50

for me and I felt shocked and

30:52

I didn't know how to handle it. And

30:54

I think I did

30:57

my best to try to advocate for myself,

30:59

but ultimately I realized

31:01

that the the opportunity in front of

31:03

me was something I couldn't pass up. So I was going

31:06

to do what black women have done for generations,

31:08

and I was going to make

31:11

lemonade. And I was gonna

31:13

have to prove over time that

31:18

that I was valued actually Toure valuable

31:21

than maybe they recognized

31:23

up front. You

31:24

think a white girl would have been given a different

31:26

package or different -- Who? -- opportunity.

31:29

You know who will ever know. Right. But what

31:31

think the point of me sharing it

31:33

is Toure

31:36

expose that this is not something

31:38

that happens only at condane as

31:40

or in the media world or to

31:42

me -- Right. -- this is something that happens

31:45

all the time every day in every industry.

31:49

I think there also are some sort

31:52

of there's there's it's a systemic issue.

31:55

Black women often

31:58

are underpaid and

32:00

overworked and underestimated,

32:03

especially in leadership roles. We

32:05

know that. And we know the stats about

32:07

the wage gap. But we we rarely

32:10

talk about like, anecdotally,

32:13

do we talk about how it happens? Mhmm. And,

32:16

you know, when I was in this position,

32:19

I knew the stats, but I still was shocked

32:22

that it was happening to me. And

32:24

I student have the tools to be able to navigate

32:26

it in a in a way that made me feel powerful.

32:29

Yeah. So I, you know,

32:31

I but but behind closed doors, when I talk

32:33

to any woman of color who was in

32:35

leadership role, they are not

32:37

surprised. They've been put in similar positions.

32:40

And yet, there's

32:42

almost this like cone of silence around

32:45

the shame of

32:47

what it feels like to be in that position.

32:50

And so we essentially protect

32:53

the companies and the power structures that

32:55

put us in these positions by

32:58

silencing ourselves. And so

33:00

I feel like I you

33:03

know, it it put me in a really awkward position

33:05

where I was being celebrated by my community

33:08

-- Right. -- for breaking

33:11

through a glass ceiling. Yeah. But I didn't

33:13

have the space. To

33:15

say this

33:17

hurts. Mhmm. It comes with

33:20

bruises and scars and cuts, and it's

33:22

not fun and it's it always.

33:25

I didn't have the space to do that and so now

33:28

I feel like I owe

33:30

it to the next generation Toure

33:32

crack open these harder conversations so that

33:34

they are more prepared when this

33:36

happens because it will happen because it's a

33:38

systemic

33:39

problem. So if if

33:42

Toure mentee, Keisha,

33:45

called you. Why should God be Keisha? Because So

33:47

just Wait.

33:48

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

33:49

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Black girl.

33:49

Hey Keisha.

33:50

And and she's like We

33:52

call her kiki. Sure.

33:53

Did do you love me? And she's

33:55

like,

33:56

auntie

33:57

Lane, like, you know, they just gave me an

33:59

incredible job. Right? But they did not

34:01

give me the money --

34:02

Right.

34:02

-- or the

34:03

power -- Right. -- or the

34:04

corner office or all the stuff that goes with it, but

34:06

the rest of the world's gonna think this is amazing. Right.

34:08

Basically, if Elaine called

34:11

you from that room --

34:12

Right. --

34:12

saying they gave me a crappy offer, but the job

34:15

is amazing. What would you tell her? What

34:17

should she do? What does Current Elaine

34:19

understand that she

34:21

should

34:21

be done in that moment. If anything --

34:23

Right. -- because perhaps there's nothing I

34:25

can do. Right. Well, One

34:29

thing I'll say is because it happened

34:31

to me and because of

34:34

how I handled that responsibility because

34:37

of where what I did with that role.

34:39

And be and now because I'm writing

34:41

this book and telling the story, the back story,

34:44

that girl won't

34:47

need me to call me. Right. She

34:49

will know. Right. First of all,

34:51

this happens. Second of all,

34:55

if I decide to move forward with this,

34:57

I can I can

35:00

reclaim my power in this? And

35:04

my community's response is going

35:06

to be a part of that, which

35:08

I want to speak to that little bit because kind

35:11

of the there's so

35:13

much time to say about this. So the other part of this is

35:15

that the world has changed so much since then,

35:17

that there is an understanding now

35:19

of the value of the black

35:22

audience who's watching.

35:25

Did you say really? Yes. You're kidding.

35:27

Black Twitter? No one wants to be on the wrong side

35:29

of Black Twitter. Sure. So so I

35:31

think when, you know, when

35:33

I was when I got my promotion, I

35:37

don't think either of us expected the

35:41

black Twitter audience

35:43

ecosystem. Yeah. Toure,

35:47

find out, b, react the way they

35:49

did. Okay. But because Essence

35:52

Magazine broke the story, And

35:55

and with the headline, I think

35:57

it's black girl magic black

36:00

it was a black girl magic alert, and it was like

36:02

Elaine Welbilt became the editor in chief teen

36:04

boge, and we all rejoice, something like that.

36:06

Right. It immediately elicited

36:09

this massive viral

36:12

celebration of black

36:13

folks. That were rising up and saying Really

36:15

did. -- this matters to us.

36:17

Mhmm. Congratulations, Sis. Like, all

36:19

the support came pouring in -- Mhmm. --

36:22

that was I wasn't expecting and

36:24

certainly the institution wasn't expecting and

36:26

in this powerless moment where

36:29

I felt like I was being stuck into a situation

36:31

that was really compromising. I

36:35

saw this response from

36:38

my community lifting me up,

36:40

affirming me. And

36:43

it gave me my power

36:45

back Mhmm. -- in a moment where I felt powerless

36:49

and it made me reflect and

36:51

remember that I'm here representing

36:54

them. Yeah. I'm here actually on

36:56

the inside working for all

36:59

of us on the outside. And that gave me

37:01

power. I think as women, it's harder to advocate

37:04

for ourselves than it is to advocate for

37:06

others. And when

37:08

you remember that you're walking into the room and

37:10

you're representing thousands

37:14

of people who are who've

37:17

never been spoken to directly in the way that

37:19

you can in this role, it

37:21

empowers you to ask for what

37:23

you deserve or what you feel you

37:25

deserve. And so Toure was this

37:27

there was this moment where,

37:29

like,

37:30

I just realized, wow, there is something

37:32

really Toure

37:34

was something about that moment that that

37:37

that I think I learned, I

37:39

learned that black culture comes

37:42

with a currency that

37:44

we sometimes we sometimes

37:47

discount, like, even But

37:50

when when when when those voices came

37:52

in, I cannot tell you, it gave me it gave

37:54

me leverage. It

37:57

literal leverage Toure back into

37:59

the room and say, we

38:01

need to negotiate. We need I need space

38:03

to negotiate this. And

38:06

if I didn't, how can I

38:08

possibly talk to all these? How can I possibly

38:11

make this look good and be the sort

38:13

of token black hire for

38:16

for all these folks who are who are looking at me and

38:18

celebrating this, like, it's it's it was something

38:20

that I felt like I had to do? I had

38:22

to go back in and negotiate that and

38:25

it got marginally better. But with that,

38:27

it got marginally better. But ultimately, it

38:29

was the work that that it was the work

38:32

that ultimately the the company had to

38:34

realize mattered

38:36

and was valued more. And a year

38:39

later, I eventually got the title --

38:41

In the corner of the corner of the corner of the

38:42

office. And the the full package that,

38:44

you know, III felt

38:46

Just more commend

38:47

again. Certainly.

38:49

Yeah. Absolutely.

38:51

Yeah. I

38:51

did. Hard.

38:52

I did. It was hard. It is hard to be the

38:55

only one. It is hard to be first, but it's not,

38:58

you know, I think art, it comes with a great

39:00

opportunity too. Because

39:03

you can open the door and make sure that there's a

39:05

second and a third. And now there is. And the

39:07

next in the next editor in chief

39:09

who came after me is a

39:12

young black woman who was even younger than

39:14

I was when I got the job. And so me,

39:16

that's the true marker of

39:17

success. The culture has shifted and

39:19

and there's space for more than just me. Kind

39:21

of reference some of the tension

39:23

that I have been dealing with throughout my media

39:26

career that I go into Rolling

39:28

Stone, M. Wherever and

39:30

feel like I am representing the culture.

39:33

Mhmm. So, you know, you gotta be on

39:35

your game, you know, and bring in our

39:37

issues but I don't

39:39

Toure be a spokesperson for the culture

39:41

because that is minimizing

39:44

and I see just one person can be this folks

39:46

person. And I can know what you know, I wrote a

39:48

book about the complexity of black people, so I

39:50

can't say black people feel like x. Right?

39:54

So it's been that sort of push and

39:56

pull of how do I

39:58

represent the

39:59

culture, but then also it has to be me.

40:01

It has to be authentically me and what

40:03

I believe and I can't just say such and

40:05

such because --

40:06

Right. -- the culture wants to hear that. Right.

40:10

Oh,

40:10

my gosh, I've been there. And that's that goes to the earlier

40:12

point that I was making about, you

40:14

know, it takes time to figure out

40:16

how to speak

40:18

quote unquote on behalf of your community

40:20

--

40:21

Mhmm. -- while also being true to

40:23

yourself and also getting

40:25

shit done. And

40:27

and it's still done.

40:28

yeah. That part. actually doing the job in

40:30

rushing it. Right. So, you know,

40:32

it's it's It's a journey. And there's that other story

40:34

that I shared about learning

40:37

the hard way when you're trying

40:39

to negotiate these

40:41

things and and

40:43

and you make a wrong calculation, and

40:46

then the very community that you feel like you're

40:48

there representing gets

40:51

mad at you. Mhmm. You

40:53

know, it's like we walk as black

40:55

people in white

40:56

organizations, we are walking this

40:58

tight rope every day. Well, you talk about

41:00

this story where you bring

41:03

in the cornrows. Right? You bring bring in

41:05

the black hair But

41:07

you put it on a mixed

41:09

model who did not read black to

41:11

others. Right? And you've you've you flawed

41:13

yourself for not putting dark skin

41:16

women in it, which would have made it clear

41:18

what your intention was. Sure. And

41:20

I think a lot of people didn't quite understand

41:23

that it was a black woman behind

41:25

all this. But in larger

41:27

sense, I I

41:30

cringe most of the time

41:32

that we talk about cultural appropriation.

41:35

And I think there are definitely times

41:37

when it is serious, and we need to

41:39

call it out, and we need to have recognition,

41:41

and we need to be seen. Right? But

41:44

there's a lot of times when it's so

41:46

petty and the least little thing and we Toure

41:49

run around screening appropriation. And if we were

41:51

as mad about flint, as

41:54

we are about

41:54

appropriation, they would have clean

41:56

water. If we

41:57

were as bad about, you know,

41:59

about police violence in LA,

42:02

we would that would be solved as we are I

42:04

mean, like, create --

42:05

Sorry. -- like, again

42:06

with the appropriation. Come on, guys. Yeah.

42:08

Got it. You know, it's interesting.

42:11

I don't think we realize that it's

42:13

generational privilege that

42:15

allows us the

42:17

space to even

42:20

address the issue of cultural

42:23

appropriation.

42:24

Yeah. It is an intellectual argument.

42:26

Yes.

42:28

And I am not

42:31

taking away from this

42:33

you know, this push. I think it's I think

42:35

it is an important thing to address.

42:40

That being said, you know, I get I get checked

42:42

by my mother who's like, girl,

42:46

cultural what?

42:48

Right. Right. I didn't have time

42:50

to worry about. Right. Who was

42:52

wearing braids. Right. I was trying to keep my

42:54

job. Right. So

42:57

y'all new these new blacks, you

42:59

know, she's just like, this new generation grows.

43:01

These new negroes, you know, it it

43:04

I so I understand like, I I just think

43:06

we need to put things into perspective and

43:08

remember where we came from

43:10

and remember the struggles of the civil rights

43:12

era -- Mhmm. -- and really

43:15

put cultural per appropriation in perspective.

43:17

Like, I as long as we're contextualizing it

43:22

and giving it the appropriate way, you

43:24

know, versus, I think, sometimes we get into this

43:26

position, and it makes sense. When you're when

43:28

you've been in a powerless position for

43:30

generations, and finally, you're in a position

43:33

of policing, those who've been policing

43:36

you, your body, and

43:38

your families, and your, you know, Toure whole

43:40

your lineage has been police by

43:43

white folks since forever.

43:45

So now, I'm in a position to police

43:47

you and tell you -- Right. -- you don't get to wear

43:49

your hair like this. And here's why and

43:51

I'm gonna take that, and I'm gonna run with

43:53

it. And I think there is a little bit

43:55

of that sometimes in the whistle blong that we

43:57

do. On Instagram.

43:59

I mean, on on in social media.

44:01

Everywhere. Yeah. You know, and we live in cancellation

44:04

culture. We love a cancellation. Even

44:06

I said earlier, we love a celebration, but we love a cancellation

44:08

even Toure. And we love to be able

44:10

to call someone out, and I just think

44:14

Sometimes we have to refocus ourselves

44:17

on what the real movement

44:21

is about where we're really

44:23

going And and what is our

44:25

what is our focus? And we need to be all we

44:27

need to be we need a line on it because if sometimes,

44:29

I think how we

44:31

come across is just angry.

44:34

Yeah. And when that is

44:36

when that's the perception, I don't think

44:39

that we're moving anyone

44:42

towards I

44:44

I don't think we're I don't think we're I don't think we're gaining

44:47

momentum in our

44:47

movement. When

44:48

we are done with that. Not with that. Not with

44:50

that. But I but it's it's complex.

44:52

Like, listen, cultural appropriation is a complex issue,

44:55

and I'm not trying to

44:58

say that it isn't important. I think

45:00

it's important at times. There are I

45:02

think there are sometimes when we call it

45:04

out and it's accurate and appropriate, but

45:07

I think quite often, we

45:09

we use that stick too much, and

45:11

we should focus on it. You talk about cancellation, culture,

45:14

I thought it would be a lot easier and quicker to

45:17

cancel Michael Jackson, and a lot of people are

45:19

fighting against it. Like, they just say, I don't

45:21

want it. I don't I'm not getting, like, you

45:23

don't

45:23

know, you weren't Toure. I'm like Can I tell

45:25

you how deflated I

45:28

feel about this issue within

45:30

our own community? Right. Right.

45:32

I I mentioned my mom, by the way, my mom

45:34

is like the hero of this book.

45:36

Once you read this book, like Elaine's

45:38

COVID, her mom is

45:40

hero. I love her. So I love my mom and

45:42

I'm not throwing her under the bus when I say this,

45:45

but even my mother refuses

45:49

to watch the documentary. And

45:53

that's hard. That's hard for me. And I do think

45:56

this is again a generational thing.

45:58

Where I think my my our parents

46:00

generation

46:02

really needed these

46:04

black heroes. I mean, we should

46:06

be heroes. As a millennial and even as a

46:08

gen xer, we cannot understand the

46:11

civil rights movement

46:14

thing that he was bringing forward

46:16

when the Jackson five was stepping I mean, that

46:18

was, like, a major moment in politics

46:20

as well as culture. Absolutely. But that we

46:22

don't understand. We were not there. We did not

46:24

need that.

46:28

But I can't I can't believe. We're not ready.

46:30

They're not ready. What what kinds of conversations are

46:33

you having with black people about Michael

46:35

Jackson? It's

46:36

it's either left or right. Right?

46:38

It's either -- Yeah. --

46:39

either you're ready to face it.

46:40

Why that man that documentary was insane. Oh

46:43

my god. He's a monster. Or No.

46:45

I don't believe that as bullshit. Like, some white man

46:47

told you, like, what? No. What?

46:49

What are you talking about? Like and just rejecting

46:52

--

46:52

Right. -- and

46:53

There's this knee jerk rejection. Yes.

46:55

And it's the same thing. And

46:56

they want a pivot to and wears the Harvey

46:59

Weinstein doc. And what what does that matter?

47:01

What does that have to do with

47:02

anything? Like, this is one of

47:04

those issues where race does not actually play

47:06

a role.

47:07

Right. And I think it's hard for some black

47:09

people to recognize that,

47:12

you know, like, race doesn't always isn't

47:14

always like,

47:18

a part of the equation. And and and,

47:20

like, I I really think it's the same mindset

47:23

that a lot of black people had during

47:25

the OJ era. Mhmm. Wear

47:29

Well, no. It's different because o j didn't do it.

47:31

Oh. Oh. So you okay. So you

47:33

got it out of here. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I'm

47:36

to show decades. I'm kidding.

47:38

I'm kidding. But but but when I was

47:40

at MSNBC, I used to torture

47:42

all because I'm the only black person on the team. I used to tortured

47:45

them by saying he he didn't

47:47

he got off. He was acquitted. What are you talking about? And, you

47:49

know, just culturally, Coloqua, we just say,

47:51

look, Toure, OJ did it. I'm like, hey. He was

47:53

like, quitted. Like, what are you talking

47:55

about? And they were like, is he serious?

47:57

Is he choking

47:58

said, you were just messing with me. We are

47:59

triggered that he's even

48:00

seen it. I was, like, impressed with it. was

48:02

acquitted. I don't know. You believe

48:03

in the ecosystem,

48:04

but here you go, though. I loved it. That was Not

48:06

so much fun. It was so much fun. Got

48:08

only but that that actually

48:10

He got his. He paid. He paid

48:12

his bill. Yeah. But it that was an

48:14

interesting social experiment in my household.

48:16

I was in third grade when that happened, and

48:19

I only understood it through the lens of my

48:21

parents at the dinner table.

48:23

Sure. In their conversation. And,

48:26

you know, I have a black mother and I have a white

48:28

father. And the

48:30

the they were very clearly on two different sides

48:32

of this great

48:33

debate. Really? Yes. And

48:35

my dad was just who's very fact

48:37

oriented is just like that

48:40

he did it. He is guilt and

48:42

of story. Mhmm. my mom

48:44

comes from a generation of

48:46

black people who have seen we've

48:49

seen black I mean, this isn't even just

48:51

generational. We see this today, every day,

48:53

but so many black men

48:55

are

48:57

screwed by the system. Yeah. And

49:00

so my mom's perspective was sort of,

49:02

if we got one

49:03

Right. Right. Who didn't it who

49:06

got off? Right. Right. I'm not mad.

49:08

I'm not mad at it. Right. Right. Right. And I was just

49:10

it's so it's like we we have a different

49:12

understanding of what defines

49:14

justice. Mhmm. I think. And

49:17

so on some level, to to a lot of

49:19

people, that that's

49:21

the represented a moment where,

49:23

like, justice was not served before a lot of

49:25

black folks. OJ

49:27

represented just Yeah. Or are they getting off

49:29

or isn't injustice for black? Oh, yeah. Tony

49:32

is something I don't think a lot of white people can wrap their

49:34

head around. So, like, look at the facts. Right. You

49:36

know? No. Look at these facts. So,

49:38

anyway, as we as it relates to Michael Jackson,

49:42

I think it's like black people just have

49:44

a really hard time looking

49:46

at

49:47

like, they're a fallen hero, a fallen

49:50

black hero. They just can't accept. I

49:51

mean, we have been trained to love him

49:53

since -- Yeah. -- you know, the

49:55

beginning of the day, they

49:58

you know, the thing that kills me is,

50:01

you know, I'm out here rooting for everybody black.

50:04

I didn't even know that Jordi Chandler

50:06

was black. Like, I didn't know.

50:08

Like --

50:09

Right. -- I didn't know. Why

50:10

aren't we working for Jordi?

50:11

Yeah. Right. Right. Like, why wasn't I showing up

50:13

for Jordi? For showing up

50:14

for Black little black boys. And he killed himself

50:16

because the pain was so much.

50:18

And I didn't even know. I wasn't even showing

50:21

up for

50:21

him. We're just like, well, Michael said,

50:23

So let's keep marching. Let's keep going.

50:26

Like I didn't

50:26

even know. I didn't even bother to know

50:28

that. That kind of I mean, Jesse

50:30

Smollett.

50:31

What about him? It this is we're it's

50:33

all part of the same conversation, rooting

50:36

for everybody black. Yeah. Is what led so

50:38

many people What you say about

50:39

Josie? What you say about Josie? I'm

50:42

I'm saying he didn't do nothing. What'd you say? No.

50:44

Yes. Okay. Here we are. Are

50:46

we gonna go there? What'd you what? Well,

50:48

I'm saying

50:50

First of all, I will

50:51

say. You wanted

50:51

to pay Chicago for a week? We need their

50:54

time. No. We have way we have

50:56

many, many more reasons to

50:58

question the motives of

51:00

the

51:01

DCP? Chicago

51:02

PD, absolutely.

51:03

Then we do Jesse. And

51:05

Black sites.

51:06

And I think that the narrative that we've been

51:09

fed is from the perspective of

51:11

the CPD. And we've been and and I think

51:13

we

51:13

don't They they were coming out doing preaching

51:17

in editorials and press conferences

51:19

and I'm like, this doesn't seem like

51:21

a police presentation. You seem like

51:23

a political presentation that you're trying to

51:26

rally people against

51:27

Jesse, like, you

51:28

Actually, in in the history of her, have you

51:30

ever seen -- Right. -- the CPD do

51:33

this much work -- Right. -- this quickly

51:36

and and and work so

51:38

hard publicly to

51:42

sort of make themselves seem like they're

51:45

they have no fault. Like, Chicago is like,

51:47

I think they want us to they

51:50

wanted they wanted to vilify Jesse.

51:53

And I think that was the that was the and

51:55

to me, that was a red

51:57

flag. What? And and

51:59

also Just stick to the crime. Just stick to the crime. Just

52:01

stick to the crime. Yes. And

52:03

and, like, the thing is that we've

52:05

been told there's evidence. But

52:09

what evidence? We haven't been told what the evidence

52:11

really is. And I

52:13

don't even there's this

52:15

is, like, a whole other talk show. You think

52:17

What I will say is you too.

52:19

You you believe the Chicago PD's narrative

52:21

that he

52:21

No. I believe that Jesse's innocent

52:24

until proven -- Right. -- guilty.

52:26

Right. No. I don't know why he's wearing a noose

52:28

Toure late. What did he

52:29

do? He's wearing the noose hours later.

52:31

Like, why are you still wearing it? Like Well, but

52:33

there's I under don't know. I listened to

52:35

his good morning America interview.

52:38

And while some people saw that and

52:40

and thought, oh god, he's not credible.

52:43

He's lying. He's clearly lying. I looked at it.

52:45

And I thought I understand where

52:48

he's coming from. To me, he felt more credible

52:51

after watching that interview. And I understand

52:53

why if this happened to you and it's a hate

52:55

crime and it's one that's

52:58

so hard to believe because it's so extreme,

53:01

you wanna you wanna you're gonna

53:03

show up to the police station or to the hospital

53:05

with as much physical evidence as you

53:07

can to support the

53:08

story. But why don't you just rip

53:09

it off so I put a noose on my neck and rip that

53:12

like it. No.

53:13

I mean, I see your point. I see your point. Toure

53:15

you're gonna you're gonna show them what

53:17

you look like directly after

53:19

the attack versus what you would go take a

53:21

shower Give it all the evidence of them.

53:23

No. Go in and show what it

53:25

looked like. I mean, you'd have to be

53:27

really truly out of your mind to

53:30

orchestrate this level of an attack

53:32

on yourself -- Right. -- in the public

53:34

eye -- Right. -- and I just think that

53:37

you know, I we we're not that many

53:39

degrees There's Toure aren't many degrees of separation

53:42

between myself and

53:43

Jesse. We know many people in common and

53:45

I feel like we would have heard

53:46

from one degree. He was on the show. He was on the show. Okay.

53:48

So you tell me what your character assessment

53:51

is, but I have not heard from anyone that

53:53

Jesse was crazy or a

53:55

crazy intention seeking or someone who's

53:57

delusional or someone who lies a

53:59

lot. Like --

53:59

None of that. -- if that has not come forward,

54:02

then I have I'm sorry,

54:04

but I have more reasons to distrust

54:06

the CPD than I do

54:07

Jesse. But

54:08

at the same time, right? Anne, I'm rooting for

54:10

everybody black, and I'm gonna I'm gonna ride

54:12

for Jesse until you give

54:14

me a

54:15

really, really, really good reason. Oh, no doubt.

54:17

No doubt. Totally. I'm I'm I'm with

54:19

him. Bandwagon. I'm on his side. I

54:22

feel like public opinion among

54:25

black people has largely come down against

54:27

him.

54:27

Right. Chris

54:28

rock like, does Chris rock drive by,

54:30

like, I'm not calling you Jesse no Toure.

54:33

Like --

54:34

Whoa. -- was he gonna call him?

54:36

Jesse. I

54:38

mean, it's Toure, but, you know, rock

54:40

in his position in the culture. And for

54:43

him Toure, like

54:44

Yeah. Totally drive

54:45

by joke. Like like, And

54:47

I do think that reflects a problem in our culture

54:49

because, you know,

54:52

III removed for everybody black.

54:55

Until they get canceled, then I'm jumping right off. Like,

54:58

we are so quick to get on a bandwagon

55:00

and even quicker to jump off.

55:02

Mhmm. And so it's like, Is this

55:04

loyalty that we feel towards each other

55:06

real? Mhmm. Is this

55:08

I I feel like we owe

55:11

it to Jesse. To

55:14

ride this out with him. And

55:17

I was really actually kind of hurt when

55:19

I saw how quickly people turned on

55:22

him just because the headlines

55:24

shifted. Yeah. Like, as a journalist,

55:26

I know how easy it is

55:28

to manipulate public opinion

55:31

with a

55:31

headline.

55:31

Yeah. Yeah. And when

55:34

you have a a motive behind

55:36

that, it's it's

55:38

just III really I really

55:40

have a hard time with the clickbait

55:43

culture that we live in. Mhmm. And

55:45

with this idea that we don't think

55:47

for ourselves, we would just we we

55:50

sort of blindly retweet. We just retweet.

55:53

What we what we see on Twitter without

55:55

forming our own opinions and without thinking

55:57

about the counter narrative and without, you

55:59

know, having more nuanced conversations, not

56:02

everything is black and white, and not everything is

56:04

as you're told. And

56:06

I I think we need to be more critical of

56:09

the information that we were being fed

56:11

every day. And that's from Jesse to

56:13

what's coming out of the Trump administration

56:17

we have to be more critical about what we're about

56:19

the information that we're being fed. So

56:20

take a step back -- Yep. -- into your

56:23

career.

56:24

Because now we're on DG DG.

56:25

But I know how to on

56:26

the left Toure. But I love that. With you

56:28

Avenue. Weird magazine people

56:30

and you worked for and with

56:33

one of the great legendary editors

56:35

of all

56:35

time. What'd you learn from Anna

56:37

Winter? I learned

56:40

how to be decisive.

56:43

Mhmm. I learned how to be clear

56:45

with feedback. And I learned how

56:48

to be like

56:51

ruthlessly protective

56:55

of my time in order to

56:57

maximize efficiency. Like,

56:59

that woman's schedule, she gets more

57:01

done in a day than Beyoncé.

57:04

She's so economical

57:07

with her words. Okay.

57:08

The pageants, he's gonna get you. But I know.

57:10

know. I know. Right? Come

57:14

from y'all. It

57:16

wasn't a diss. Right. It's not a diss.

57:18

Okay? Maybe okay. Yeah. Okay. But

57:22

don't cover me y'all. Don't cover me

57:24

black Twitter. But she's

57:27

just really I I don't think that Anna

57:29

gets enough credit for just

57:32

how open minded she actually is. Mhmm.

57:34

And how

57:37

creative she is and how how

57:39

open to new

57:41

ideas and young voices she is.

57:44

I mean, I get a lot of credit

57:46

for the transformation of Team Vogue.

57:48

But listen, I would not have

57:51

been able to do half

57:54

of what I did and what our team

57:56

did really without the support

57:58

of someone at the top who gave a space

58:00

to experiment and

58:02

to flip them the model

58:05

on its head and to do things that we

58:07

know magazines speaking to young people had

58:09

ever done before. And so I give her a lot of credit

58:11

for that. She's

58:14

she's a fierce leader and

58:16

I she's she made me a better leader -- Mhmm.

58:18

-- for having worked with her.

58:22

You know, toward the end of the book, you talk about

58:25

you came to New York, you came to

58:27

your professional life with this mindset of

58:30

bite off more than you can chew. Yeah. And

58:32

just chew the hell out of it. Yeah. And

58:34

I think that's definitely been my mindset.

58:36

I always have 567 projects that

58:38

I'm doing at once. I cannot get everything

58:41

done. Right. I feel like the plate is overflowing

58:43

and there's overwhelm, but, like, you

58:46

plow through it because that's the way it is.

58:48

But you really are

58:51

open with yourself about this is too

58:53

much I am burned out. This is

58:55

not fun. I want to be

58:58

chewing as much as I can eat or

59:00

just, you know, just just taking it down to,

59:02

like, a reasonable level -- Mhmm.

59:05

-- which is not yet where I

59:06

am. Not the person. I don't know if I'm there either,

59:08

but I I definitely changed the

59:10

mantra. Mhmm.

59:12

By the way, forgot to say Anna's really funny, by

59:14

the way. Really? To finish that, I don't think she gets

59:16

credit for being funny.

59:17

She's a funny Anna Toure. She's just,

59:19

like, I remember her. Funny. She's ice queen. She's

59:22

she's not as icy as she is depicted.

59:25

She really isn't. She I've just

59:27

remembered this one time where we

59:29

were our

59:31

wellness editor at the time, Vera Popisov a

59:33

shout out to Vera. She's genius.

59:36

And she was really behind

59:38

a lot of some of those award winning stories

59:40

that we did in pushing us into some

59:43

more radical intersectional

59:45

feminist space. Like, she's amazing. So

59:47

and but, you know, so she would present certain ideas

59:49

that then I carried into the big

59:52

boss. And she had an idea about

59:54

tackling female masturbation and

59:56

telling sort of, like,

59:58

sort of historical retrospective of

1:00:01

female masturbation. And

1:00:05

so I had to go into talk to Anna. And

1:00:07

I think it's so crazy because now that might not even be

1:00:09

jarring or shocking to

1:00:10

people. But, you know,

1:00:13

five years ago

1:00:14

-- Mhmm. -- talking to Anna about female

1:00:16

masturbation putting it in teen vote wasn't

1:00:18

exactly the easiest conversation to have, you

1:00:20

know, especially shortly after being given the reins

1:00:22

and I'm this young black girl, you know,

1:00:25

one would think you should play say for a little while.

1:00:27

But but, you know, I went

1:00:29

into this meeting thinking how am I gonna say the

1:00:31

word masturbation? In front of Anna

1:00:33

Wintour. And we were we

1:00:36

were all, like, oh, we were all, like,

1:00:38

it was funny going into it. But I so I finally

1:00:40

got courage, and I and I I pitched it to

1:00:42

Anna, and I

1:00:43

said the word. I said the words. I said

1:00:46

the words. And she just without

1:00:49

flinching without blinking. She

1:00:51

just said, oh, I don't

1:00:53

see why not. Men have been doing

1:00:55

it forever and talking about it.

1:00:59

It's fine by me. And I wish I had

1:01:01

a British accent to really be able to land

1:01:02

that, but I I've been terrible British accent, so I'm

1:01:05

not even gonna do myself right

1:01:06

now. Right. Right. Right. But but but I think

1:01:08

that in and of itself that like, that

1:01:10

share that sheds light on just

1:01:13

how open minded she is. She's she's cooler

1:01:15

than you give her than she's been giving credit for.

1:01:17

And we ran the story and she didn't those

1:01:21

those kinds of stories that we did, we would not have

1:01:23

been able to do without someone at the top a leader

1:01:25

saying, Toure. I'm much

1:01:27

more comfortable asking the questions than

1:01:30

I am answering them. And this has been a really

1:01:32

interesting transition for me going from

1:01:35

behind the scenes to in front.

1:01:38

And even, you know, I'm much more comfortable

1:01:41

telling my story in

1:01:43

a written form. You

1:01:46

know, it's harder for me to talk about

1:01:49

this book. And so I'm really kind of

1:01:51

grateful that my first interview

1:01:53

my first podcast interview with you and that

1:01:56

you, you know, you create a safe space

1:01:58

also that you're you are a black male journalist.

1:02:00

There's a lot of stuff in this book. Thematically,

1:02:02

then I'm sure -- Oh, yeah. -- on some level you

1:02:05

relate to. And so I feel

1:02:06

safer. Yeah. The

1:02:07

white space struggle, the magazine struggle.

1:02:10

I mean, all that is just so near to

1:02:12

my heart and so much of this I

1:02:14

really related to and was

1:02:16

admiring you for putting

1:02:18

out into the world and It's a

1:02:20

beautiful book. Thank you. Feels

1:02:22

like we're

1:02:23

coming to the end, but we're not yet. Okay. Okay. But

1:02:25

seriously coming from you, that means a lot. Like,

1:02:27

you used to the word extraordinary. Like, you use the

1:02:29

word

1:02:29

beautiful. I mean, that means I I didn't

1:02:31

know you read the book when I walked in and you said, like, oh,

1:02:33

I read about that.

1:02:34

Oh, yeah. yeah.

1:02:35

Read the book? Hey. read my

1:02:37

book. Yeah. No. It it

1:02:40

it is it is warm and welcoming

1:02:42

and inspiring and

1:02:46

giving and real. You

1:02:48

do that thing of like, I'm gonna be vulnerable. I'm gonna

1:02:50

tell you about how I had to pee all

1:02:52

the time because I had condition and

1:02:55

people in the office were teasing me

1:02:56

about. I'm keeping it extra reading. He

1:02:58

would have extra I mean, you know, you could have told the story

1:03:00

about, like, you know, I got the job at efog. It was

1:03:02

great. But it's like, but there was this other

1:03:04

side too, and was really r two, and you're like,

1:03:06

I'll show you my warts, and that's beautiful

1:03:08

thing. But what what

1:03:10

is driving you? What do you

1:03:13

want people to think about

1:03:15

you? Why are you doing all this stuff?

1:03:17

Like, what do you want them to say about I

1:03:20

don't know if I've I don't know if I operate

1:03:22

with that in mind. Good. I

1:03:24

I don't think about what people think about

1:03:26

me. What

1:03:27

do you want to think about you? That

1:03:30

I'm being true

1:03:32

to my call,

1:03:35

that I'm answering my call, I

1:03:37

think all, you know, I

1:03:40

one of my favorite books is the alchemist and

1:03:42

-- Mhmm. -- you know, Pablo

1:03:44

Quello says in the book, I'm paraphrasing,

1:03:47

but our only obligation is

1:03:50

to actualize our

1:03:52

dreams. And and I think our dreams

1:03:54

are actually colleagues. And

1:03:57

I think they're actually divine

1:04:00

and and they were put here on

1:04:02

assignment, all of us. And I,

1:04:05

you know, I I don't wanna see I

1:04:07

don't wanna live my life

1:04:12

on the other side of my calling. I don't wanna

1:04:14

I don't wanna ever wonder what would have

1:04:17

happened if I was brave enough to be obedient

1:04:20

to this big call Mhmm. -- on my

1:04:22

life. And so I'd rather answer

1:04:25

it, heat it, and and and

1:04:28

be led. You know, I don't do anything.

1:04:31

I'm not super strategic in the sense that

1:04:33

I'm I don't think about a five year plan.

1:04:36

No. I'm I'm I would have thought that Toure

1:04:38

driven. No. I'm driven, but I'm you

1:04:41

know, it's interesting. I'm I'm

1:04:43

less driven than I am led. Does

1:04:46

that make sense? Like, I feel

1:04:48

led to do things. Okay. And

1:04:50

I don't really do there's not a lot

1:04:52

that I do that I don't feel called to do.

1:04:55

This book wrote itself in

1:04:57

me, and I had to share it. Okay.

1:04:59

You know, it wasn't like, well, now.

1:05:02

I must build my brand. Yeah. So I must write the

1:05:04

book.

1:05:04

Yeah. must have a message, and I must get it out Toure.

1:05:06

And this is my new platform. Like, I'm not strategic

1:05:09

in that way. Toure is sort

1:05:11

of a kind of an organic flow.

1:05:13

And I talk about this actually in that same burning

1:05:15

out chapter, like, there is hustle

1:05:17

and there's and there is flow. Yeah.

1:05:19

And you must have one,

1:05:22

you can't have one without the other. If

1:05:25

you want to have a sustainable sort

1:05:29

of run with success. It's a

1:05:31

marathon. And so so,

1:05:33

yeah, I feel like I'm in my

1:05:35

flow. And I wanna stay in my flow. That's my

1:05:37

goal, is to stay in flow. And

1:05:39

actually, when I met Oprah, I

1:05:41

interviewed Oprah last No. I'm not trying to drop

1:05:43

a box. No.

1:05:45

No. No. We're

1:05:46

in media. It's not name dropping, but just what

1:05:48

an amazing send is when I when I

1:05:50

interviewed o what in amazing

1:05:52

sentence that I never thought I would

1:05:54

be able to say. mean, really, I I don't

1:05:57

I never get to a point where I take any of this

1:05:59

for granted. Like, that was

1:06:01

the wildest dream come And I hope it

1:06:03

happens again. It was very brief. It wasn't this

1:06:05

like, you know, we didn't have the the the couch

1:06:08

cover station, the super sole Sunday that I hope we

1:06:10

have one day, but I got to interview

1:06:12

her at the wrinkle

1:06:14

in time red carpet. And

1:06:18

she held Toure

1:06:21

First of all, she said my name and I was passed out.

1:06:24

And I'm like, her publicist probably just told her

1:06:26

Toure, before she backed up to me. Nope. But she No.

1:06:30

No. And I

1:06:32

have no doubt that oh, I was

1:06:34

fully aware of, like, oh, what?

1:06:36

Fly Black girl is doing big things. A teen. Oh,

1:06:38

no girl. Like, no doubt. Was in

1:06:40

magazines. She knows She knows what's up,

1:06:42

but I it's still, I mean,

1:06:44

incredibly humbling to hear your name come

1:06:46

out of Oprah's mouth. Wow. And so she

1:06:49

grabbed me like she does, you know how you know that Oprah

1:06:51

grip, that desk grip that she gives, the

1:06:53

people she's interviewing, and she even

1:06:55

though I was interviewing her, and she looked

1:06:57

at me and she said Toure only job.

1:07:01

Your only job is

1:07:03

to listen. Just

1:07:06

listen for the whisper. And

1:07:08

I remember from watching Oprah. I'm an

1:07:10

Oprah Junky through and

1:07:12

through. I grew up on the Oprah Winfrey show, and I

1:07:14

remember a long time ago,

1:07:17

she said on her show, listen

1:07:19

to the whisper before it comes a roar, and

1:07:22

it stuck with me. And I believe that

1:07:25

I believe that there are all there's

1:07:27

always a whisper telling

1:07:29

you the right way to go

1:07:32

Not that I entirely believe in right and wrong.

1:07:34

I think we learned from the

1:07:37

hard stuff. I don't really

1:07:39

believe in mistakes, but I do believe

1:07:41

that there's this dance that we do with life.

1:07:43

And, like, when you can identify

1:07:46

that voice that's your intuition or your or your

1:07:48

god or the universe or however you define

1:07:50

it, man, life is fun.

1:07:52

When you can operate and flow with

1:07:55

the universe and catch that rhythm like,

1:07:58

there's another, not to just keep throwing all these mantras,

1:08:00

but there there is another really meaningful kind

1:08:02

of mantra that I picked up in meditation

1:08:04

where this woman said to me, when

1:08:08

the music changes so much dance.

1:08:10

And there is

1:08:12

a music to life

1:08:15

if you're listening to it. And there

1:08:17

there are times where the music changes and and

1:08:19

it's and and and you feel clumsy.

1:08:22

Toure like, wait, but I was doing it this way.

1:08:24

For a long time, I had this dance down,

1:08:26

but then life calls you

1:08:29

to a new beat, to new

1:08:31

rhythm, you gotta and you gotta adjust,

1:08:34

and you gotta learn the new dance moves. And

1:08:36

I think when as long as you remain open,

1:08:39

Toure and flexible and fluid.

1:08:41

Man, life can take you so many

1:08:44

places you never ever dreamed of.

1:08:46

And I think that's what this book ultimately

1:08:48

is about. I have so much more to do.

1:08:51

I am certainly not done, and I'm not

1:08:53

telling you know everything. But this

1:08:55

is what I know now. This is what I've learned

1:08:57

to this point. This is my memoir so far.

1:09:00

And I felt led to share this

1:09:02

story. I felt led to

1:09:05

go into some of the clumsier,

1:09:07

harder, painful stuff and also

1:09:09

to share my why and my how

1:09:12

behind the what it looks like.

1:09:14

And and this is my offering.

1:09:17

This is my offering. It's not up to me

1:09:19

to determine or to predict or

1:09:21

to try to control what people are gonna think about

1:09:23

it, where they're gonna think about me. Like,

1:09:26

my job is the same flow.

1:09:28

And I'm in flow. This book is literally

1:09:31

my heartbeat, and then I'm I'm giving it to the

1:09:33

world, and then I'm gonna move on. And there are a lot other

1:09:35

things that I'm gonna do next. But

1:09:38

I'm proud of that thing. That is like,

1:09:41

I'm really proud of that thing. And it took

1:09:43

a lot out of me to get that done in this amount

1:09:45

of time, but I feel like it was necessary

1:09:48

work that I had to do, that only I could do. And

1:09:50

that's all we can do. Right? It's like, that's

1:09:52

the goal. It's do the work that only

1:09:54

you can do. That operate in your zone of

1:09:56

genius and and just be true to

1:09:59

to your

1:09:59

calling. So that's what that's what did with that

1:10:01

book. Last thing. Yeah. What's your superpower?

1:10:11

I can't believe you're turning on my question

1:10:13

on me. This is the question

1:10:15

I ask

1:10:17

y'all. Like, really, it's

1:10:19

in every interview that I I ask

1:10:21

people this. It's crazy that I've never had

1:10:23

to really design it on the This

1:10:25

is every show. We ask

1:10:27

people this question because

1:10:30

I love the

1:10:31

answers. Right? I mean, that's why you're out here

1:10:33

asking it because it's a great question. It's such

1:10:35

a great question. That I should

1:10:37

ask myself more often, I think

1:10:39

that my superpower is

1:10:45

connection. I think that

1:10:48

I'm able to figure

1:10:51

out relatively quickly

1:10:55

how to see someone and make them

1:10:57

feel seen. I

1:11:03

think I have a

1:11:05

gift of creating

1:11:08

space for people to

1:11:10

be who they are and

1:11:15

to be seen. And I think part of that is because

1:11:18

I've been on journey to really

1:11:23

own all of who I am and to move

1:11:25

through the world authentically. And think by

1:11:27

doing

1:11:28

that, it gives permission to other people

1:11:30

to do the same. Toure is a

1:11:32

permanence to this.

1:11:35

That does not attend our articles

1:11:37

-- Mhmm. -- certainly does not attend our

1:11:39

tweets and our IG posts.

1:11:42

Mhmm. You know,

1:11:44

I mean, your children will

1:11:47

pick this up one day and

1:11:50

check it out. And, like, the,

1:11:52

you know, my children have not read any

1:11:54

of my books. Yep. And they are not interested

1:11:56

in reading any of my books. But

1:11:59

but this will last

1:12:01

forever. On your bookshelf, on

1:12:03

other people's bookshelf, it's really, you know,

1:12:05

crazy thing with There's a beauty in bookmaking. Yeah.

1:12:08

That feels even more special a day in this

1:12:10

ephemeral world of social media where

1:12:12

nothing lasts

1:12:13

forever. And it's just one

1:12:15

tweet to the next, one post to the next.

1:12:17

But, yeah, there's tiny

1:12:18

stories and You're in your face. Let me

1:12:21

let me take you back.

1:12:22

Yeah. Let me tell you the whole story.

1:12:25

Right? think that's powerful. And

1:12:27

I think it's it's important. And I also think it's

1:12:30

important to have more and more black and

1:12:32

brown authors

1:12:34

in the bookstore. Speech.

1:12:36

Yeah. I hope that I'm just one

1:12:38

voice in a chorus of voices, and

1:12:40

I hope that this book gives

1:12:43

permission to other young

1:12:45

aspiring black writers to just write the

1:12:47

book. Write the book. There's space for

1:12:50

it. There's a demand for it. There's an

1:12:52

audience. And I hope I'm

1:12:54

just part of sort of proving

1:12:56

that there's a market. And and

1:12:59

you don't have to be sixty

1:13:01

wealthy, you

1:13:03

know, extraordinary homo goal to

1:13:08

have a story that's valid enough to be told.

1:13:10

Right. And and I had to tell myself that through

1:13:12

this process, I mean, my brother even over

1:13:15

Christmas said to me, dude,

1:13:17

Elaine, why are you wearing a why are you wearing a autobiography?

1:13:19

I love your brother because dude. He's like, dude. Yeah.

1:13:22

And yeah. Like, even at this point

1:13:24

in my career, he's, like, the only person

1:13:26

who will just chop me down size real fast

1:13:28

and just be, like, He's

1:13:29

like, oh, dude, why are you wearing an autobiography? Isn't

1:13:31

that like something old people do? Wow.

1:13:34

Like,

1:13:34

seriously But but but he's

1:13:36

the older younger brother.

1:13:37

He's older than me. And he and he didn't mean it

1:13:39

to be, like, hurtful. But he's

1:13:42

but he's not understanding the

1:13:44

history of black literature. Which is

1:13:47

quite often Toure autobiography is

1:13:49

the first book that you publish, and you may

1:13:51

publish it in your twenties or your thirties

1:13:53

or whatever. But, like, I had to tell

1:13:55

my Toure. You know, my name is Richard Wright.

1:13:57

My name is, you know, Claude Brown.

1:13:59

My name is whatever. You know you

1:14:01

know, I had to tell my story first. Before

1:14:04

I could tell you anything else. Oh,

1:14:06

that's so powerful. That when you put

1:14:08

it like that, when you put this book,

1:14:11

know, in this, like, larger

1:14:13

trajectory of -- Black. -- bout of biogradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradradrad in

1:14:21

the moment. They didn't even call

1:14:24

them out of my geographies anymore. You asshole.

1:14:29

And I just, like, burst into tears. So

1:14:31

now I have a better I can come back with some

1:14:34

some weight on this. But,

1:14:36

no, III think that's powerful when

1:14:38

you put it into perspective like that. And

1:14:41

III just think, like, listen,

1:14:44

you don't have to be Toure

1:14:46

later I realized I was like, that's the patriarchy talking.

1:14:49

Mhmm. You don't see the

1:14:51

value yet. In

1:14:54

the voice of a young black woman, and that's

1:14:56

okay. You're not my audience.

1:14:59

I'm not speaking to you. And I do think that's

1:15:01

rule number one, like, right

1:15:04

for your audience.

1:15:06

Mhmm. There are a lot of people who get it,

1:15:08

and then there will be some who don't. Don't worry about

1:15:10

them.

1:15:19

Thanks to Elaine for a great interview, and thanks

1:15:21

to you for listening Toure gives you

1:15:23

fuel to power your dreams because you can

1:15:25

use your dreams like a rocketship to

1:15:27

blast you into a life you never imagined. You

1:15:30

can make your dreams a reality, and this

1:15:32

show can help. I'm on Twitter at and

1:15:34

on Instagram at Toray Show.

1:15:36

Please leave a view on iTunes and tell

1:15:38

your friends about the show. shows

1:15:40

written by me produced by Jackie Garofano,

1:15:43

our editor's Brandon Taco, and our photographer

1:15:46

is Chuck

1:15:46

Marcus. We're distributed by DCP

1:15:49

Entertainment, and we will be back next

1:15:51

Wednesday with another amazing person

1:15:54

because the man can't shut us down.