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0:35

Today

0:35

on the town hall review with Hugh Hewitt, Russian

0:38

partnership with, the Pepperdine Graduate School

0:40

of Public Policy. The Supreme

0:42

Court hears arguments in what could become

0:44

the most significant first academic case

0:46

in a generation.

0:47

What is the speech that is

0:49

required of your client that would

0:51

violate the first of Emma? You're

0:53

from the attorney who argued the case. Kristen

0:56

Wagner of ADF.

0:57

It's wrong that people are facing fines,

0:59

reeducation, and jail time because

1:02

they won't speak the message that they believe

1:04

isn't

1:04

true. We'll look at the significance of

1:06

another key decision from the Supreme Court earlier

1:08

year, West Virginia versus the EPA.

1:11

This has the opportunity to

1:13

be a game changer. And Andy

1:15

McCarthy on Elon Musk's release of

1:17

the Twitter vials. If the government

1:19

pressures private actors to do

1:21

things that the government itself would not be allowed

1:24

to do, and that's a big legal

1:26

with analysis from Brandon Tatum.

1:28

When the government is suppressing

1:30

your speech, that's illegal. I'm

1:32

Hugh Hewitt, right to be with you. catch

1:34

my program each weekday morning live six

1:36

to nine AM eastern time and on demand

1:38

twenty four seven. Learn more at hugh

1:41

uot dot com. Find it all at

1:43

the Hugh. Follow me on Twitter

1:45

at Hewitt. Follow this program as

1:47

well at town hall review. We'll

1:50

start in Washington, D. C. and the Supreme

1:52

Court. Where? on Monday of this week,

1:54

the nation's highest court heard arguments on

1:56

the case, 303 Creative versus

1:58

Alenus. The case is really

2:00

a follow-up to the masterpiece cake shop decision

2:03

in twenty eighteen where the court by a seven

2:05

to two margin ruled

2:06

in favor of cake baker, Jack Phillips.

2:09

But the

2:09

court in that case did not address the full

2:11

scope of the person amid concerns. Those

2:14

will be handled in the 303 creative case

2:16

argued before the court this week. Kristen

2:19

Wagner, CEO of Alliance defending Freedom

2:21

argued on behalf of the petitioners on Monday.

2:23

Here's a bit of that argument as she was pressed

2:26

by Justice Kagan. So

2:28

Mike

2:28

and Mary go into your client.

2:30

We love graphics. We saw them

2:32

someplace else. We love how this

2:34

looks.

2:34

Here's what

2:36

we want. We want the standards side.

2:39

Our names are the picture. the

2:41

hotels, the registry, Hugh

2:43

know, just just that. And you

2:46

say, okay, don't you?

2:49

Yes. Assuming all the details line

2:51

up with the message that she's going to create.

2:53

Yeah. I mean, then they say we don't want your

2:55

scripture, but that's alright with

2:57

you. They don't have to

2:59

have scripture.

2:59

No. They do. They can just have a standard

3:01

site. Right? Okay.

3:04

So now it's not Mike and Mary.

3:06

Now it's Mike and Mark. and they

3:08

want the identical site.

3:11

We saw Mike and Mary's

3:12

site. We loved it. We're

3:14

getting married, you know, you

3:16

know, all they wanna change is the date maybe Hugh,

3:18

you know, their names, whatever. We loved

3:20

it. And and they don't get

3:22

it. And the quest and and you say

3:24

no.

3:24

Right? You wouldn't be up there if

3:26

you weren't going to say no. Right? They can't

3:28

get that site.

3:29

Yes, because the same words can even convey

3:32

different meanings.

3:33

Yeah. So then, I mean, the

3:35

difference is

3:36

one couple is opposite sex.

3:38

One couple is same sex. how

3:41

is this know, what

3:43

are the different meanings? What is the

3:45

speech that Hugh client

3:48

is expected is

3:51

required to provide in

3:55

the way I'd expressed it to you.

3:57

The purpose of the website is to celebrate

3:59

an

3:59

upcoming wedding. It's to announce a wedding

4:02

and It is to announce a wedding. I mean,

4:04

let's this is a standard site, you

4:06

know, and there's not a whole lot of, gosh,

4:09

isn't this It's just like here's

4:11

the registry, you know. It's announcing

4:13

the wedding. It's announcing where to

4:15

get the hotel reservations and

4:18

so forth.

4:19

Right? So what

4:21

speech is being

4:22

I mean, that's that's what that's

4:24

what websites do, just like it's what invitations

4:27

do. Right? So, you know,

4:28

next, we'll have the stationer up there

4:30

saying, you know, we print the stage the the

4:32

Commentary. Right? I mean, that would be

4:35

the same. It is announcing the

4:37

wedding. What's the speech

4:39

that's been required of your

4:41

client? That we I mean, I'm gonna

4:43

have lots of questions for these guys

4:45

too. But in in that context,

4:48

what is the speech that is

4:50

required of your client that would

4:52

violate the first Amendment?

4:54

believes that same sex

4:56

weddings contradict scripture, and

4:59

she's announcing a concept of

5:01

marriage that she believes to be false.

5:03

And in addition to that I mean, but

5:05

that just sounds to me. Like, I would

5:07

be participating in a wedding. I

5:09

would be Hugh know, lending

5:11

my services to a wedding. You

5:13

know, as justice sodomy, you are

5:15

suggested, the florists, the

5:17

baker, and the guy who provides

5:19

the shares are also providing

5:21

the services in a wedding that

5:23

they don't like. So

5:26

why are they any different? The

5:28

person providing the chairs isn't providing

5:30

speech. But when you are engaging in symbolic

5:32

speech, whether that be through the creation of a

5:34

custom wedding cake, or a custom

5:36

wedding website, you are creating

5:39

speech. Even though the site doesn't

5:41

say anything about that, It

5:43

doesn't say,

5:44

wow gay marriage is

5:47

a wonderful thing. It doesn't

5:49

say it doesn't even

5:51

say, you know, we're here to celebrate this

5:53

wonderful marriage in my

5:55

hypothetical. It doesn't even say that.

5:57

Again,

5:58

the announcement of the wedding itself

6:00

is a concept that she believes to be false and

6:02

the entire purpose behind the compelled

6:04

speech doctrine is to avoid

6:06

these ends by avoiding these beginnings.

6:08

It's to ensure that individuals

6:10

don't speak messages that betray their

6:12

conscience and that applies just as much

6:14

to the Democrat as to the LGBT

6:16

or the black cross sculptor. Thank you.

6:18

Kristen Wagner joined me on Tuesday.

6:20

I listened to a lot of the argument you were

6:23

superb. Well,

6:24

thank you. I I hope you got the rebuttal where

6:26

I actually got to say what I think.

6:28

and are pleaded the court to

6:31

provide relief, not just the Lori Smith,

6:33

but two other artists who are caught in the

6:35

crosshairs on this issue.

6:36

I did. And I want people to understand

6:39

that when you were standing up there,

6:41

you were trying to get Colorado to

6:43

stop interfering with people's speech.

6:45

It's not a religious liberty case. It's

6:47

a freedom of speech case. And

6:49

I thought some of the hypotheticals that came

6:51

from Justice Brown Jackson just were

6:54

confusing to me. Did you understand what she was getting

6:56

at with the baker?

6:57

Not all the time.

7:00

I, you know, I think the challenge with the

7:02

hypothetical that were being posed as they were

7:04

extreme situations that would never happen

7:06

in real life and the hypotheticals kept

7:09

changing before the answers could come out.

7:12

And there was an attempt to try to malign

7:14

people a faith who believe marriages between

7:16

a man and a woman and suggest that

7:18

this case is

7:19

about other things, which is just not true.

7:21

Now I I did your justice gorsets, rebuke

7:24

your friendly co count not not co

7:26

count, the opposite counsel from Colorado by

7:28

misstating what had happened to Jack

7:30

Phillips. in the match piece. He was forced

7:32

to go to reeducation camp.

7:35

That's a a gloss on what they call

7:37

it, but what did you make of that exchange? I

7:39

think he lost Justice Gorsets at that

7:41

Hugh too. We intentionally

7:44

reminded the court about the reeducation

7:46

and the reports and the fines

7:49

and the introduction and We

7:51

know that Justice Corps' such race concerns

7:53

about that in Jack's case as well.

7:55

It's wrong that people are facing

7:58

fines, reeducation, and jail time.

7:59

because they won't speak a message that they

8:02

believe isn't true. They

8:03

know you've got a slam dunk win, so they're gonna

8:05

try and get people to think this is about

8:08

racially mixed marriages or something

8:10

else. I mean, I was truly flabbergasted by

8:12

the hypotheticals. Am I

8:14

just not studious enough? Hugh

8:16

should be. It

8:19

it's all they have to throw at it. And,

8:21

frankly, it's illegal to

8:23

turn people away because trying to

8:25

provide service based on a protected

8:27

class.

8:27

That's the same Today's. It will be the

8:29

same when the court rules. It is illegal

8:31

to do that. This

8:32

is about whether you can decide based

8:35

on the message. As Jessica has

8:37

said in the argument, it's about what the

8:39

message is, not who's requesting

8:41

it. and that protection extends to

8:43

all of us, the LGBT website

8:45

designer who doesn't wanna have to create a

8:47

message that violates her conviction. or

8:49

the black sculptor who doesn't want to have to design for

8:51

the Aireon Church, we should all have

8:53

that freedom. Colorado would take

8:55

that freedom away from America.

8:58

Now

8:58

is there a real threat to people

9:01

who are deeply sincere in

9:03

their religious beliefs? What's the

9:05

threat to Laurie Smith, if she's obliged

9:07

to do websites for same

9:09

sex marriages.

9:10

Laura is creating custom artwork.

9:13

These are original websites

9:15

using her words, her

9:17

text, her graphics, to tell a couple

9:19

story, to announce an upcoming

9:21

wedding, and to celebrate that wedding. The

9:23

consequences are that if she decides to

9:25

try to promote her face's view of

9:27

marriage, she has to promote a

9:29

different view of marriage. And the

9:31

court has said time and again that

9:33

it can't government can't compel

9:35

us and truth on our mind and spirit.

9:38

to betray our conviction. That's

9:40

what you see in a totalitarian or authoritarian

9:43

regime. That's what other countries

9:45

do that want to repress freedom

9:47

and move into authoritarianism. And

9:49

I think the government will respond

9:51

I think the court will respond to that, but

9:53

I would also say he It's

9:55

important to realize there are cases right

9:58

now that are at the Court of Appeals where

9:59

photographers are facing jail

10:02

time in six figure penalties

10:04

for declining to do the same thing that Lori's

10:06

asking the freedom to do. And obviously,

10:08

Colorado is the most aggressive importer

10:11

in the nation. We'll be watching this

10:13

case. We'll be reporting on it when we get a

10:15

decision next year. I feel pretty

10:17

confident given the current composition of the

10:19

court that 303 and the first amendment

10:21

will try it. I think it's a matter whether

10:23

we get A63 majority or even

10:25

perhaps A72 majority with at least a

10:27

concurring opinion from Justice Gagan.

10:29

It all underscores how very important this

10:31

court has been, and not only

10:33

in the arena of first amendment liberty,

10:35

the six three win for West Virginia

10:37

in the case was Virginia versus

10:39

EPA decided in June of this

10:41

year, here's another decision of enormous

10:43

importance. I spoke with perhaps the key

10:45

force behind West Virginia's victory, their

10:47

attorney general, Patrick Morrissey.

10:49

This is the most important

10:52

freedom case in the last 3II

10:54

think Dobbs was big. Dobbs was

10:56

huge for saving life. But

10:58

for saving freedom of people who are already

11:00

alive, West Virginia versus EPA

11:02

is it. Would you explain to people what that

11:04

was about? What's this really? This case

11:06

was really about assets

11:09

was

11:09

in our country, you have

11:11

a question who gets to

11:13

decide the major questions

11:16

of the day? Should it be on elected

11:18

bureaucrats or should it

11:20

be the people's representatives

11:22

in Congress? And

11:23

I think that the court was very

11:26

clear that when you have matters

11:28

of vast economic and

11:30

political significance,

11:32

It's, of course, critical

11:34

for the Congress to make

11:36

the decisions as to how it's

11:38

going to proceed and not

11:40

leave this to the elected bureaucrats

11:42

who reached out into their bag of

11:44

tricks, pull

11:45

out, twist an ambiguous phrase

11:47

and say, we're gonna reorder the nation's

11:50

power grid I think

11:52

that this

11:52

has the opportunity to be

11:54

a game changer because it took on the

11:56

swamp in a way that no one has

11:58

in a long time and it said

12:00

no, you're not going to get

12:02

the difference that we're used to

12:04

giving you under the law, going back

12:06

to the chef law and deference

12:08

from nineteen eighty four. You're not gonna get

12:10

that anymore because we're gonna

12:12

ensure that the core of the

12:14

constitution takes pressure. There will

12:16

be no constitutional shortcuts to

12:18

the bureau cuts anymore. And by

12:20

removing that difference, that

12:22

makes a big difference for

12:25

freedom and has forced people to go

12:27

through the light cross. The administrative

12:29

state is gonna bleed out because of the lawsuit you

12:31

West Virginia versus EPA. You know what? The

12:33

other point I would make is

12:34

that when we were going through the process,

12:36

a lot of people criticized us.

12:39

Now, the case law begins to

12:41

populate through the Court of Appeals,

12:43

through the District Court And when you get a new

12:45

administration, you Hugh take this

12:47

major questions doctrine and

12:49

the reduction of power of the

12:51

bureaucracy. You can embed

12:53

it in agency rules and

12:55

the next president has a chance to

12:57

really, truly go after

12:59

the swap using the weapon of

13:01

West Virginia VAPA, which

13:03

by the way, it's a value neutral

13:06

decision that doesn't favor Republicans

13:09

or Democrat. because it

13:11

adheres to the rule of law. Coming

13:13

up. Elon Musk gives us a

13:15

window into the Twitter vial. If the

13:17

government pressures private

13:19

actors to do things that the government itself

13:21

would not be allowed to do, and that's a

13:23

big legal problem. When the town hall

13:25

review returns in a moment.

13:28

Celebrating our twenty fifth anniversary, the

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13:35

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13:37

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slash capitalism.

14:03

Welcome

14:04

back to

14:05

the town hall review Hugh Hugh Hewitt. It was

14:08

October fourteen of twenty twenty.

14:10

Just a few weeks before the show

14:12

election when the New York Post published a piece

14:14

on Hunter Biden in his smoking gun

14:16

set of emails that it surfaced. Twitter

14:18

promptly blocked the New York Post

14:20

account on their site. any other count

14:22

that tried to carry the story on

14:24

itself blocked as well. And

14:26

from the left came fifty former

14:28

intelligence officials saying the story

14:30

had all the armor of a classic

14:32

Russian disinformation operation. Wrong.

14:36

Elon Musk, the new owner of Twitter.

14:38

Police some internal documents late

14:40

last week. Andrew McCarthy explains

14:42

for us in his conversation with Joe Piscopo

14:44

on AM nine seventy the answer in New

14:46

York City. Was anything

14:48

illegal down there? I mean, was there any,

14:50

a concerted effort

14:52

with the Department of Justice,

14:54

with social media. Do we know any of

14:56

that, Andy?

14:57

I think Joe that what people need to

15:00

realize is that

15:02

there's a lot of there's

15:05

a lot of room for people, loosiness

15:08

in the joints of the people to do things that

15:10

are shady, but not necessarily illegal.

15:13

Number one. And number

15:15

two, on both sides of

15:17

these exchanges of information,

15:19

you have very sophisticated

15:21

actors. Like for

15:23

example, the one of the

15:25

main lawyers at Twitter who was

15:27

involved in the communications with the

15:29

FBI was the FBI's former

15:31

general counsel, Jim Baker,

15:33

during the whole Russia get stuff.

15:35

Right? So if the bureau

15:37

wants to communicate a message, and

15:40

they come in and they say, you know, social

15:42

media platforms need to be held

15:44

accountable if they are

15:47

helping to transmit misinformation.

15:49

And we have reason to believe Hugh the

15:52

Russians interfered with

15:54

the election in twenty

15:56

sixteen in order to help Trump get elected.

15:59

And we have reason to

15:59

believe that they are doing the

16:02

same thing in twenty twenty. And

16:04

in the weeks before the election,

16:06

there could be a big news dump along

16:09

the lines of that

16:11

kind of thing. You really

16:13

have to be on the lookout. for

16:15

half Russian business. Right?

16:17

And and let's say

16:19

there's a dispute about this, which I think is a

16:21

red herring. But let's say they never

16:23

say the words Hunter

16:26

Biden. But

16:27

they, you know, they give you

16:29

if there's ten facts, they give you eight of

16:31

them. Yeah. And the people they're talking

16:33

to on the other side, including the

16:35

former FBI general counsel who

16:37

is a you know, he he knows how this

16:39

game is played. Right? So it's like, Joe,

16:41

it's like, if I said to you,

16:43

Joe, I think John

16:46

has a problem. You know, I get these

16:48

crazy tech from at two o'clock

16:50

in the morning. There's all kinds of

16:52

misspellings. It's a

16:55

rant and then I see in the next day. He

16:57

looks a little disheveled. Doesn't look like

16:59

he can keep it together. And then

17:01

you

17:01

go out and say, you know, Andy told me that John

17:03

has a drinking problem. And they come to me.

17:05

I said, I never said it. I never

17:08

said it. I never said the words. I

17:10

never said But you never

17:12

went there. Wow. But

17:14

but, you know, I

17:15

I said enough to you to convey the

17:19

you you made a sensible deduction from

17:21

what I said. But I have I

17:23

could tell everyone I never said such a thing.

17:26

And that's

17:26

how they do it. That's scary.

17:28

And in your article, stop

17:31

looking for a smoking gun

17:33

that's not how this game works. So

17:35

there's not gonna be Well, they would love

17:37

you they would

17:37

love you to think that that that killed

17:39

your innocent hinges on whether they said

17:41

the guy's name or not. But you we

17:43

all know that's not the way life works.

17:46

Yeah. I think The one thing you you always

17:48

say to a jury in a trial is

17:50

the one thing you want to never check at

17:52

the door is your common sense.

17:54

You know? And the way the

17:57

world works is, you

17:59

know, they don't you're not

18:01

gonna find a piece of paper where it's

18:03

the FBI says, let's tell them that there might be

18:06

derogatory information about

18:08

Hunter Biden that we know is not

18:10

really derogatory because we had the

18:12

laptop world for a year and we know

18:14

exactly what's on it. Is it going to find

18:16

anything like

18:17

that? But what you see is that there are

18:19

people on both sides of these discussions

18:22

who know exactly what's going on.

18:24

Look

18:24

at those fifty one

18:27

National

18:27

Security Agents who signed

18:30

the letter. Right? Around the same time?

18:32

Yes. Yes. The letter. The

18:34

letter that says it has all the

18:36

earmarks of Russian disinformation. If

18:38

you talk to Brennan or

18:40

Klaffer or any of the

18:43

sellers,

18:43

who signed off on this letter,

18:45

they tell you, well, we never said

18:47

it was rushing this information.

18:51

We

18:51

never made that claim. We said

18:53

it had all the earmarked. Wow.

18:55

And now we're very concerned about

18:57

it,

18:57

and this is the kind of thing the

19:00

Russians do. and they knew exactly what they were doing. They put

19:02

it out there. They flooded it out there so that

19:04

they could deny they ever said it. But

19:06

in the meantime, you know, Biden

19:08

leaked on it to say, These

19:10

intelligence officials who are bipartisan and

19:13

patriotic say it's Russian disinformation

19:15

and Twitter and Facebook use

19:17

that letter as as to fortify

19:19

their conclusion that they should suppress the

19:22

story. That's how they do it. To get to the heart

19:24

of the matter, nothing illegal. This is

19:26

the way the game is played is what

19:28

you're saying. and you're gonna have to deal with it.

19:30

And I guess this just goes away

19:32

and I hate to quote Hillary, but it's like a

19:34

nothing burger here. Correct? Well,

19:37

I think, if if

19:39

the government pressures private

19:42

actors to do things that the government itself

19:44

would not be allowed to do,

19:46

And

19:46

that's a big

19:48

legal problem. Joe Biden, and we talked

19:50

about it earlier on the program, is just

19:52

he's parading a hunter around. Like, it's in

19:55

your face. like like hunters

19:57

parading around. Like, go

19:59

ahead. Like, talking

19:59

us. And one thing, Joe, they they

20:02

really ought to do, these intelligence

20:05

officials should not have security clearances anymore.

20:07

And there ought to be any action that you might

20:09

take it against the war to be taken

20:11

because they had privilege

20:14

access to nation secrets. Brandon

20:16

Tatum weighed in on his program on the

20:18

officer Tatum show. We caught

20:20

a red handed. they cheat they they

20:22

they they cheated the system

20:24

on Twitter to block Republicans

20:26

and

20:27

endorse Liberals.

20:31

And, of course,

20:32

in the Twitter files, they say Dorsey

20:34

didn't know which he was the CEO of

20:37

Twitter. They said that he didn't know a lot of

20:39

the stuff. He was trying to put fires

20:41

behind the scene, so he wasn't the

20:43

culprit. He wasn't the bad guy, but there was a whole

20:45

bunch of other people that were the bad guy.

20:47

Literally speech. at

20:49

the

20:49

request of the government. Now let me tell you

20:52

this. Social media organizations can

20:54

suppress whatever they suppress. They're Supreme public

20:56

companies. I mean, private companies.

20:58

They're privately

20:59

owned. They're owned by the government.

21:02

The the the first amendment don't

21:04

count in a private business. you

21:06

have terms of conditions that you abide you

21:08

say that you wanna you prescribed to those terms

21:10

and conditions, you have to live by those terms

21:13

and conditions. Now, the

21:13

government can't suppress

21:16

your speech because that

21:18

is

21:18

a constitutional right. The

21:20

government cannot suppress your speech. We didn't enter into a

21:22

contract with the government. The only contract we

21:24

got with the government is the constitution. So

21:28

the problem is is

21:29

not if Twitter was suppressing

21:31

your speech. That's another conversation. That's

21:34

a class action lawsuit if you wanted to

21:36

make one. But when

21:37

the government is suppressing your

21:40

speech, that's illegal.

21:42

Now I gotta figure out which

21:44

charge there to be. but

21:46

that's illegal for

21:48

them to do that. For

21:50

them to coerce or or or or

21:53

to coerce an organization That's a

21:55

public a private entity to

21:57

act on their behalf

21:59

to

21:59

suppress Supreme person's freedom of

22:02

speech.

22:02

and to

22:03

manipulate or

22:05

collude with a

22:07

company in order to change

22:10

the outcome of an election.

22:12

That was gotta be crimes. Now I don't know

22:14

which crimes they are because I hadn't looked it up, but

22:17

that that it seemed like a crime to me.

22:19

Coming up, understanding public

22:21

opinion can be set by a minority in

22:23

such a way that people believe it's a

22:25

majority. Yeah. A look at democracy in

22:27

America by Alexis to Tukville.

22:29

when the town I'll review with Hewitt, returns in a

22:32

moment. Stay with it.

22:33

Hey, everybody. Charlie

22:35

Kirk here. We've been working very

22:37

hard on an a new docu series called

22:39

border battle. It chronicles the horrifying

22:42

conditions on America's southern border,

22:44

what you are gonna see in

22:46

Border Battle will blow your

22:48

mind. It's amazing. First

22:50

hand interviews, incredible commentary

22:52

straight up on the front lines. We've worked

22:54

very on this from turning point USA, and we

22:56

are exposing the border crisis available

22:59

exclusively on salem now dot com

23:01

produced by turning point USA

23:03

available at salem now dot dot

23:05

com.

23:09

Welcome back to the review with

23:11

Hugh Hewitt brought you in partnership with our sponsor,

23:13

the Pepperdine graduates' School of Public Policy.

23:16

Democracy in America is at once the best

23:18

book ever written on democracy and the best

23:20

book ever written about America. It

23:22

is the country in which democracy is least hindered, most

23:25

perfected, where democracy

23:27

is at its most characteristic and

23:29

its best. Those words came from the

23:31

great Harvey Mansfield, the Harvard

23:33

professor. In his introduction to the classic

23:35

work by Alexia Turtafill on our

23:37

great Republic, A

23:39

workforce published in two volumes in

23:41

eighteen thirty five and then in eighteen

23:43

forty. Given the highly polarized,

23:45

tense political times we are living through, it's a

23:47

good time to gain appreciation for this project.

23:49

Yes, also for the nation we love.

23:51

Pete Peterson at Pepperdine's Graduate School

23:53

of Public Policy joins Seth

23:55

Leipson. An AM nine sixty to

23:57

Patriot in Phoenix. Democracy

23:59

in America,

23:59

Alexis to Tokvil's two

24:02

volumes. Boy, good, important,

24:04

still around. Tell us about

24:06

the import of Alexis to Tokvil's

24:09

democracy in America? Well,

24:10

I think knowing a bit about

24:12

the background is is important. Yep.

24:15

This this was a book you say

24:17

written in two sections of volume one

24:19

and volume two. But wherever

24:21

books are sold, you

24:23

get them together. but it was

24:26

essentially -- it began as a travel

24:28

log by the

24:30

Frenchman, the French Aristocrat, Alex

24:32

is to Toqueville who came to the United States

24:34

from France in eighteen thirty

24:36

one. ostensibly to write about

24:38

what this growing

24:41

republic was like

24:43

and also in particular to

24:45

study the prison and

24:47

penitentiary systems here

24:49

in the United States. what

24:51

began with that purpose turned into

24:54

really magisterial book

24:56

about American exceptionalism. what

24:59

makes America unique Hugh only in the structure

25:02

of its government, the importance

25:04

of federalism and subsidiary,

25:07

but also in what

25:10

Toqueville would call our morays,

25:12

what are the habits of

25:14

the heart, another phrase that he

25:16

uses that Americans

25:19

essentially have

25:22

as democratic citizens that

25:24

enables them to handle

25:26

this previously unknown

25:28

level of freedom. Mhmm.

25:31

those freedoms, freedom of religion,

25:33

freedom of association, freedom of speech.

25:35

He if I if I remember correctly,

25:37

he goes into those as

25:40

perhaps the greatest bulwarks

25:42

against another phrase that we can

25:44

help attribute to him, maybe Madison and him

25:46

more than anything else, which is tyranny of

25:48

the majority. Right? Yeah. So the bull

25:50

works to protect us from the tyranny of the

25:53

majority. Yes, a democracy governed by

25:55

majorities, but majorities can

25:57

be tyranny. Right? No,

25:59

that's right. And of course, this

26:01

is one of the areas as we begin

26:03

to talk about the importance

26:05

of free speech that at once

26:08

Tokio gets absolutely right, but I think

26:10

he also in ways that he

26:12

couldn't have foreseen misses

26:14

a bit. To fill is very

26:16

upfront about the fact that public

26:18

opinion in a democracy is

26:20

a powerful instrument

26:22

for controlling broader public opinion on

26:24

a variety of policy, political,

26:26

or cultural issues.

26:29

And He sees this through the lens of the

26:31

broader Democratic instincts

26:33

of Americans, which is to trust

26:35

a majority of opinion on

26:37

things. So he talks a lot about the

26:40

fact that Americans

26:43

will hold up the majority

26:45

view on an issue whether it's

26:47

an election or an issue

26:49

as being almost a voice of God.

26:51

Mhmm. They just certainly

26:54

trust that. Mhmm. I think what he

26:56

misses is that there can be

26:58

a tyranny of the minority as it

27:00

pertains to public opinion. Yeah.

27:02

which is something that certainly that we're seeing now.

27:05

So in one sense, total gets

27:07

absolutely right the power of public

27:09

opinion that it at one

27:11

point he says that nothing once

27:13

it's set in the American mind, a

27:15

position on a particular issue,

27:17

nothing stands in its way.

27:19

Mhmm. Mhmm. But what he doesn't, I

27:21

don't think, get and again,

27:24

allowable given all the other things he he

27:26

does get Hewitt still early America. Let

27:28

us not forget. Right? This is -- That's right. -- forty

27:30

year old America or something like that. That's

27:32

it. That's it. Is

27:34

the fact that here what we're I

27:36

believe we're seeing today on a whole host of

27:38

issues and this certainly gets to the topic of

27:40

cancel culture is that public

27:43

opinion can be set by a minority.

27:45

in such a way that people believe it's a majority,

27:47

but it nonetheless controls

27:50

public opinion and what's

27:52

permissible to say across

27:55

a whole host of issues. Once

27:57

in

27:57

a while, maybe

27:59

almost once every century,

28:02

a great foreigner casts

28:04

his eye and study to America

28:07

and explains us to

28:09

ourselves in a way better than we

28:11

do ourselves. I I don't know if you No. I

28:13

think that's I totally

28:13

agree with that. And writing to a

28:16

French audience that obviously had been

28:18

convulsed by one

28:20

revolution after another after the

28:22

initial French revolution.

28:24

He is saying this democracy is

28:26

coming to the world. And these

28:28

are the things that you need to know

28:30

about. But what makes the book really so important

28:32

for Americans today to

28:35

read is

28:37

the second half, the second book of the

28:39

two book volume in which he gets

28:41

into a series of what I call Toqueville's

28:44

prophecies about

28:46

things that

28:47

people living in Democratic Republics

28:50

need to worry about as they look

28:52

to the future. Coming up, to

28:54

fill marbled at Americans' ability to

28:56

govern themselves -- Yeah. -- particularly at the local

28:58

level -- Yeah. -- more. -- on democracy in

29:01

America. When the town I'll review Hugh Hewitt

29:03

returns in a moment.

29:04

Celebrating

29:06

our twenty fifth anniversary, the

29:09

Peppernine graduate school of public policy,

29:11

invites you to learn from one of our

29:13

beloved teachers Doctor Gordon Lloyd, in

29:15

a four part webinar series titled The

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29:19

Capitalism versus Socialism. This free

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philosophers behind socialism.

29:27

Find out more at go dot

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29:31

slash capitalism. That's go dot pepperoni

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dot edu slash capitalism.

29:39

Welcome back

29:43

to

29:43

the town hall review with you, Hewitt.

29:45

It was seventeen eighty eight when our fledgling

29:47

nation ratified the count institution.

29:49

A constitution itself and the nation itself

29:51

is a marvel of democracy and self

29:53

governance. There's something unique that the

29:55

Tokyo recognized in his trips there in the

29:58

nineteenth century. and

29:58

it's a uniqueness that

29:59

marks us even today. Let's

30:01

pick up on Seth Liebson's conversation with

30:03

Pete Peterson talking about democracy in

30:06

America. I remember off the top of my head. I mean, I

30:08

put it in speeches on this topic when

30:10

I speak on on on the

30:12

judiciary. He warned about

30:15

how unfortunate it was that there's an

30:17

area of political question that arises

30:19

in America that doesn't become a judicial

30:22

one. I I'm pretty close to a quote. It's

30:24

not exactly direct, but that's pretty close to

30:26

something he wrote in there, isn't it?

30:28

That's right. No. The

30:31

thing that really comes

30:33

across is just how much

30:35

toqueville marbled at

30:37

ability to govern themselves to tick

30:39

early at the local level. Yeah. And

30:42

you think back at the time of the eighteen thirty's,

30:44

the federal government was not really even

30:46

I mean, it wasn't entity, but

30:48

as far as its taxing powers and

30:51

regulatory powers, it wasn't anywhere close to

30:54

what it is now. It was really the

30:56

states that were the dominant, say,

30:59

superstructure over the local

31:01

governments and certainly the move

31:03

towards or looking into the

31:05

future and seeing lawyers

31:07

and the judiciary and

31:09

getting more involved in policy making, removing

31:11

the representative nature

31:14

of our Democratic Republic.

31:16

We're one of several caution

31:19

fat toafil makes. Yeah.

31:21

And a lot of the stuff you and I have

31:23

talked about over the last, I don't

31:25

know, how long have we known each other couple of

31:27

years anyway. Maybe -- Yeah. -- a lot

31:29

of the stuff we talk about, you

31:31

know, he addresses as well. Let's

31:33

start with the

31:34

one that most people identify with democracy

31:36

in America, which is

31:38

gets us even to a passion of

31:41

yours, and and this is this issue of

31:43

voluntary associations as kind of

31:45

the secret ingredient to what

31:47

makes us so great. Pete, a

31:49

lot of people who don't know a lot

31:51

about democracy in America or a lot

31:53

about tokeville, if they have a

31:55

faint memory of it, perhaps from

31:58

a course in high school or something like that. They

31:59

remember this this pregnant phrase

32:03

voluntary associations. This was

32:05

something that totoqueville

32:07

thought was one of the secret sauces to our existence. You wanna

32:09

say a few words about that?

32:12

I

32:12

quote this phrase directly

32:14

from democracy in America

32:17

about that this preview

32:20

video. At one

32:22

point, toqueville is just

32:24

cannot believe how many

32:27

Commentary associations are taking over

32:30

jobs, tasks and responsibilities that

32:32

back on the European continent were

32:34

handled either by governments or

32:37

other types of officials. And at one point

32:39

he says, at the start of a great

32:42

undertaking, where you'll find

32:44

the government official in France, the

32:46

lord of the manor in England,

32:48

count on it in America, you'll

32:50

find an association. Mhmm. Mhmm.

32:53

And this willing

32:55

this associativeness that

32:57

another word that Toqueville uses,

33:00

that was required if

33:02

we think about it in America. At

33:04

this time, you know, only

33:06

fifty years old, there

33:08

weren't really major government

33:10

institutions even at the

33:12

local level to do things like build

33:14

schools, roads,

33:16

even bridges, many of

33:18

the things that even today

33:21

Americans believe are more

33:23

government responsibilities back

33:25

at that time. It

33:27

was groups of Americans working

33:30

together in kind of this nationwide

33:33

series of born raisings, if you

33:35

will, that were going on

33:37

throughout the country. And As

33:39

Topo would say, this was really because there

33:42

were no other options. There

33:44

wasn't a government to lean on

33:46

that had the sufficient capacity

33:48

to undertake these things. But

33:51

across a variety of

33:53

social services, if you call that

33:55

around poverty and certainly

33:58

children that needed to be

34:00

adopted, those kinds of

34:02

things. It was really left to

34:04

Americans working through a

34:06

vibrant non profit sector that was responding

34:08

to these things. And as

34:10

long as

34:10

we're now talking about that,

34:12

that opens the door to

34:16

Pete to really

34:16

a set of beautiful things he says

34:18

about the importance of religion in America,

34:20

the church in America. Right? That's

34:24

right. Hugh he says this other phrase

34:26

that in America religion

34:28

is the foremost of their

34:31

political institutions. Yeah. Isn't that

34:33

an interesting phrase? Yeah. That's the way It is.

34:35

Yeah. And, of course, what what Tofield means

34:37

by that is not necessarily

34:39

that there's some blending of church and state, but

34:41

that religion in America as opposed to

34:44

again, he's always comparing back to his

34:46

European experience.

34:48

what religion in America as its practiced was

34:51

really formative in preparing people

34:53

for political leadership

34:56

Certainly through the wide range of

34:59

protestant churches, they were generally

35:01

led by parishioners. so

35:04

people kind of got a training in that. But there was also

35:07

this aspect of religion, particularly

35:10

Christianity, that

35:12

formed citizens that were

35:14

able to regulate themselves. That's

35:16

right. That's right. But that's my memory

35:18

of it is he talks about how

35:20

Hewitt what tempers or if

35:22

that's not

35:23

if that's too big of a it's

35:25

it's it's what makes our our our our our

35:27

our our delight and our life

35:29

and freedom work. Right? Religion is what makes

35:31

freedom work without becoming assaultive of

35:34

others. Right?

35:36

That's right.

35:36

And I think Tempur is the right

35:39

word, right? I mean, we know

35:41

that it when provided with

35:43

this unimaginable freedom and

35:46

opportunity that was present

35:48

in America.

35:50

The Europeans would say, well, they're

35:52

just going to go crazy and

35:54

care only for themselves and disconnect

35:57

from all things and just be kind of

35:59

that

35:59

devil take the hindmost kind of

36:02

attitude. Mhmm. And really,

36:04

it was religion

36:06

that helped form these, again, this phrase

36:08

habits are the hard for Americans

36:10

that enable them to

36:12

control these

36:14

very what could be impulses them

36:16

much more into community

36:19

focused interest in doing

36:22

either working through their church or through certainly

36:24

faith based nonprofits to engage

36:26

in the needs and respond to the

36:29

needs of their communities. Today's right.

36:31

So kind of think of it

36:34

as, you know, the phrase. Almost everyone

36:36

knows the phrase probably in this audience

36:38

anyway from John Adams

36:40

that our institution was made only for moral and religious people and

36:42

is, what, wholly inadequate to

36:44

anything else or to a government of

36:46

any other. And that's that

36:48

issue that I think toqueville is seizing on. I don't

36:50

think he knows that quote or uses it, but that

36:52

is the sense. Isn't it that you

36:54

can't have you can't

36:56

have freedom And we'll get to

36:58

equality in a moment as well because he opens

37:00

the book there, I think. You can't have

37:02

it without a moral basis. That's that's

37:04

the That's absolutely right. Right. Yeah.

37:06

Yeah. That's right. Coming up.

37:08

Speaking of the tongue mill. He said

37:10

Americans have combated this selfishness

37:12

that we thought would be natural in

37:14

a place of such great freedom. in

37:17

the final segment of the town hall review

37:19

with Hugh Hewitt. Stay

37:21

with it.

37:23

Hi.

37:23

I'm Don Crow. This

37:25

week in the Christian outlook sponsored by the

37:27

Pepperdine graduate school of public

37:29

policy. The supreme court hears the

37:31

biggest first amendment case

37:33

in the generation. What is the speech that

37:35

is required of your client that would violate

37:38

the first of Emma?

37:40

She

37:41

believes that same sex weddings

37:43

contradict scripture. We'll get analysis

37:45

on the case. Everyone should be able to speak

37:48

freely that

37:50

no one could ever be punished or coerced by the government

37:52

to say something that they don't believe it's

37:54

true. We'll also talk about the broad

37:56

struggle of

37:58

what's happening in our nation with pastor Alan Jackson. We

37:59

took god off the throne. And in too many cases, I

38:02

think we put the government on the throne.

38:04

Mhmm. And so

38:06

we're why matching our nation plunge into paganism. We

38:08

have all this and more. Be sure to join

38:10

us and visit our website at

38:12

christian outlook

38:14

dot com.

38:18

Welcome

38:24

back to the town hall

38:25

review with Hugh Hewitt. As we've

38:28

considered the great volume from Alexis to Tokdale

38:30

today, democracy

38:32

in America I hope it is renewed and rekindled your own desire to do your

38:34

part as we continue in this, the greatest

38:36

experiment in democratic self governance the world

38:38

has ever

38:40

seen. It's got a few more minutes of Seth Leibson with our friend Pete

38:42

Peterson at Pepperdine's Graduate School of

38:44

Public Policy. Pete, one

38:47

of the, quote, I do have of it. I kinda keep

38:49

a quote book. I don't know if you do. I call it

38:51

a commonplace Hugh. And Very good.

38:54

Yeah. Yeah.

38:56

Yeah. Yeah. And in the

38:58

democracy in America, one of those

39:00

is it cannot be

39:02

absolutely or generally affirmed that the

39:04

greatest danger of the present age is

39:06

license or tyranny. anarchy or

39:08

despotism, both are equally to be

39:10

feared, and the one may be as easily to

39:12

proceed as the other from the self

39:14

same

39:15

cause, namely

39:16

apathy. apathy, which is the consequence of what i term

39:18

individualism. You know, the idea that

39:20

we are not involved, the idea that we do

39:22

take this stuff for granted, the idea that

39:26

Ronald Reagan was concerned about. Right? The idea that all these

39:28

all these George Orwell intonations

39:32

Hugh where you this is how societies

39:35

lose themselves. They forget they forget what

39:37

they're about. Right? That's so

39:38

true. Of course, if if Toqueville

39:41

is going to describe

39:44

the reason by which

39:46

Americans are able to maintain

39:48

limited government,

39:50

which is significant massive nationwide

39:52

civic engagement, then Apathy

39:56

is to

39:58

is the cancer that eats away at that. Right.

40:00

Right. And so

40:02

I mentioned the phrase

40:06

that Dennis Praiger always uses the bigger the government, the

40:08

smaller the citizen and the

40:10

smaller the citizen, the bigger the

40:12

government. And that

40:14

is essentially democracy

40:16

in America in a

40:18

single phrase. Mhmm.

40:20

because again Because, again,

40:22

Tokyo is just overwhelmed

40:23

by the fact that Americans are

40:26

essentially taking care of their home

40:28

business, but they're not doing it

40:30

individually. They're

40:32

doing it within communities and it's

40:34

a concept very famous

40:36

in the book known

40:38

as self interest

40:40

rightly understood. And

40:42

in that section of the book, Toqueville writes

40:44

that so many of us in

40:46

Europe hearing about the freedoms that

40:49

are afforded to Americans just

40:51

thought that everybody would become selfish.

40:54

Mhmm. Yeah. But as he looks

40:56

and sees both their

40:58

religious devotion their civic

41:00

participation. He said Americans

41:02

have combated this selfishness that

41:04

we thought would be natural in

41:06

a place of such great freedom.

41:08

with what he calls self interest rightly

41:11

understood. They've learned how to practice

41:13

their freedoms in

41:15

such a way that

41:18

still

41:18

maintain our freedom, but

41:21

at the same time understand that

41:23

we need to be

41:25

working with others in community as well. Thank you for joining us for

41:27

the town hall review with you, Hewitt. Catch

41:30

up on earlier episodes on our website,

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