0:00

You'll never take the great art masterpieces

0:02

of Europe for granted when you know what people

0:05

had to do to protect them during World War

0:07

II. The Mona Lisa was moved on five

0:09

separate occasions during the war. In a minute,

0:11

Robert Edsel reminds us of the men and women

0:14

who risked their lives to safeguard so

0:16

many of the world's most important artistic and

0:18

cultural treasures. Fred Plotkin's

0:20

back with us to expand our search and

0:22

maybe our waistlines for the culinary

0:25

highlights in four of Italy's lesser-appreciated

0:27

regions. They show off their wine to

0:29

its best advantage

0:30

by creating food to go with the wine rather

0:33

than the other way around. While growing up

0:35

on a farm in Belgium, Nina Derricks remembers

0:37

that lunch was the main meal of the day. Usually,

0:40

they had soup.

0:41

Often pigeon soup, because Belgians

0:43

particularly like pigeon racing, and

0:46

all the losers went into the soup.

0:47

The comfort foods of Belgium, the

0:49

treats of back-road Italy, and the debt

0:52

we owe to saving the art we love. It's

0:54

just ahead on Travel with Rick Steves.

0:59

Italy has long been home to a magnificent

1:01

variety of great foods and drinks, the

1:04

kind that gets you in touch with the season and

1:06

the lands around you. On today's Travel with Rick

1:08

Steves, Fred Plotkin tips us

1:10

off on less-traveled places in Italy, where you can even indulge in some

1:13

of the same kinds of treats the

1:15

early Romans enjoyed, or the cheese that

1:17

brought Michelangelo down from his scaffolding

1:19

for a lunch break. And

1:22

friends from Belgium tell us about the comfort foods of their

1:24

youth. We'll see how

1:27

tasty the real home of French fries

1:29

can get

1:29

and how far our taste buds have

1:31

come over the years. Let's

1:34

open the hour with a Veterans Day tribute to

1:36

the men and women who protected the great art

1:38

of Europe from being plundered or destroyed during

1:40

the Second World War. Earlier this year in Chicago, the

1:43

last of the original group of Allied troops known

1:46

as the Monuments Men, Richard Barancik,

1:48

died at age 98. But

1:51

the work at finding and repatriating missing

1:53

treasures lives on. Robert

1:55

Edsel started a foundation to recognize and

1:57

continue their work. He joins us now

1:59

to learn

1:59

more. look at some of the places we can visit to

2:02

honor their efforts. Robert,

2:04

when you think about the Louvre Museum, what

2:07

was it like before the

2:09

Nazis took Paris and then what was like a couple

2:12

years into the occupation?

2:15

Well the Louvre got several million

2:17

objects in it today at the time. It was

2:19

four or five hundred thousand objects. But you

2:22

know, imagine 1939 going

2:24

to visit the Louvre or any of the major museums

2:27

throughout Europe, you could have rolled a bowling

2:30

ball down the grand gallery of the Louvre

2:32

and you would have hit nothing other than the empty

2:34

frames leaning up against the wall because the

2:36

works of art, the paintings, the sculpture,

2:39

coins, all the things in the collection had been evacuated

2:42

to area Chateau, many

2:44

of which were moved around on multiple occasions.

2:46

The Mona Lisa was moved on five separate occasions

2:49

during the war trying to keep it out of harm's

2:52

way, the initial concern being bombing

2:54

and the fires that would follow and

2:56

then later of course theft by Adolf Hitler and

2:58

the Nazis. So just from a practical point of

3:00

view, all of these precious canvases, and if you've worked on

3:02

the grand gallery, it's like a hike, you

3:05

know, countless paintings, they left the

3:07

frames. Did they just knife

3:09

out the canvases or did they take them apart

3:12

very carefully or what? No, they took them apart. They

3:14

had about, I mean, it's really extraordinary. I don't

3:16

think it could be done today. They evacuated the Louvre

3:18

in a period of 10 days. The local citizens

3:21

volunteered as took place in Italy and other

3:23

countries to help the curators there

3:25

because they just needed manpower building crates,

3:28

finding vehicles, fuel,

3:30

etc. The frames they didn't

3:32

take, not because they weren't valuable, they're hugely

3:34

valuable, but they occupied more space

3:36

in the crates. So the focus

3:38

was on the actual canvases or panels

3:41

taken out of their frames, packed in

3:43

these crates, loaded up on the trucks and then moved

3:46

to areas where some of these things very, very

3:48

large could be fit in. In the case of,

3:50

say, the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam,

3:53

the great painting by Rembrandt, Night

3:55

Watch, a painting that measures

3:58

maybe 10 feet tall by eight 18 feet across

4:01

is rolled up like a carpet because

4:03

there was no way to move the thing to

4:05

a place of safekeeping without rolling the canvas.

4:08

Now, I understand in the Louvre, for instance,

4:10

there's actually, if

4:12

you knew where to look, on the back of canvases

4:14

there'd be swastikas indicating that these were

4:16

taken by Germans or wanted by Germans, or there's

4:19

symbols on the paintings today that show which ones

4:22

were brought back. What can you look for physically

4:25

as a sort of memory of those difficult

4:27

times?

4:28

Well, without shamelessly

4:30

plugging books, you in many cases

4:32

have to find the books that talk about what's

4:35

on the back because you can't take the painting off

4:37

the wall. That would probably get any

4:39

of our visitors more attention

4:41

than they'd ever want to have on one of these trips. But

4:44

we do know that in the case at the Louvre,

4:46

on the back of Vermeer's astronomer, one

4:49

of two Vermeer's stolen by Hitler and the Nazis,

4:51

there's an eagle swastika

4:54

from the inventory. There's

4:57

an inventory number on the back of Leonardo

5:00

da Vinci's Lady with an Ermine at the Charter Rescue

5:02

Museum in Krakow, Poland. We

5:04

located three paintings that were at the

5:07

SMU Meadows Museum that

5:10

had the Nazi

5:12

inventory codes stamped on the back

5:14

of those paintings. It appears they were properly

5:16

restituted, but many of the paintings

5:18

that were stolen by the Nazis on the back, they put

5:20

these inventory code numbers. In the case of

5:22

the Rothschilds, you might see an R1171, which

5:25

would mean the 1,171st item

5:30

stolen from the Rothschild family. There

5:32

were inventory codes for each of the major

5:34

families from whom these things were stolen.

5:37

It's an incredible undertaking. It

5:40

just goes to show while a war is going on,

5:42

the amount of diverted attention

5:44

and manpower from fighting combat

5:47

that was directed towards this looting operation.

5:49

Looking through monuments meant that struck me many times

5:52

how much interest there was in art when people are bombing

5:54

entire cities and untold thousands

5:56

of people are being killed. Still, you had this

5:58

parallel scramble going on.

5:59

on for art. Was art used

6:02

as rewards for military

6:04

heroism or for collaborators?

6:06

Well, art was kind of the weapon of propaganda

6:10

by Hitler, trying to project to the German people

6:12

this vision of what he

6:14

saw as the master race. But it was also a

6:17

major source of conferring

6:20

attention on rewards for

6:22

Nazi generals, rewards to Hitler. Early

6:25

on in Hitler's leadership, many of the industrial

6:27

leaders were encouraged to use

6:30

funds to buy works of art that they knew Hitler or

6:32

Gering or other Nazi party leaders wanted to have

6:34

in their collections. So it's a major

6:36

source of currency and a tremendous

6:39

distraction during the war. I mean, you have Gering back

6:41

to Paris making 22 separate

6:43

visits to the Jeux de Palme Museum

6:45

where Rose Vallon worked secretly

6:48

underneath their nose, and as much

6:50

as she understands German without their knowledge, to

6:53

look at works of art that he wanted to steal for

6:55

his own collection for the Fuhrer's collection, this

6:58

all taking place while he's in charge of knocking

7:00

England out of the war. It's really extraordinary. Wouldn't

7:03

the works of art in the Jeux de Palme have been what

7:05

we call the degenerate art that Hitler didn't like?

7:08

Well, many of the works were degenerate paintings

7:10

by Picasso, by

7:12

van Gogh, Monet, and others

7:14

that the Nazis were removing

7:17

from their own museums and trading

7:19

and using sales proceeds to

7:21

acquire works of art that they valued,

7:24

many cases the old master pictures. Of

7:26

course, some of these degenerate works were ultimately

7:29

destroyed, but the works

7:31

that float the Jeux de Palme were whatever the great

7:34

French collectors, many of whom were Jews, some

7:36

of whom were dealers, the dealer collectors

7:38

had collected. So it didn't just involve

7:41

works of, say, the Western world, but some of the

7:43

great tapestries of the world, some of the great Islamic

7:46

works of the world. Anything that was of value, that

7:48

was a prized item for collecting,

7:51

so many of these great collectors acquired

7:54

them with very discriminating taste, and of

7:56

course it's one of the many paradoxes of this story

7:58

that the Nazis would consider. Jews subhuman

8:01

and yet prize and respect their

8:03

taste for what was acquired so much

8:06

that they would try to be confiscating the things that

8:08

they had in their own collections. Or maybe just be

8:10

pragmatic and say, well, it's not to my taste

8:12

or my ideology, but it's worth

8:14

a lot and I'll take this degenerate piece of

8:16

art here and this Jewish piece of art there and sell

8:18

it and swap it for something that fits my

8:21

style. Is that true? I think that's true

8:23

and it's one of the reasons why I am so confident

8:25

that so many of the things that are missing will

8:28

someday surface and it's why we try

8:30

and get the word out to people that have any concern

8:32

or question about something that maybe was

8:34

brought home after the war or they acquired that

8:37

they don't know where the thing was during World War

8:39

II. Contact the Monuments Men Foundation

8:41

and send us a photograph and let us be of assistance.

8:45

Robert M. Edsel is reminding us

8:47

about the people who rescued Europe's greatest

8:49

works of art and historical treasures from being

8:52

looted

8:52

or destroyed during World War II. He's

8:55

with us in a previously un-aired portion

8:57

of our conversations with him on Travel

8:59

with Rick Steves. Robert is

9:01

the founder and chair of the Monuments Men

9:03

and Women Foundation, originally called

9:05

the Monuments Men Foundation for the Preservation

9:07

of Art. He's written a number of books on the

9:10

topic including The Monuments Men, which

9:12

George Clooney adapted into a movie in 2014. There's

9:15

also a special exhibit about their work at the National

9:18

World War II Museum in New Orleans. You'll

9:20

find more at robertedsel.com.

9:24

Robert, I would imagine you enjoy traveling

9:26

Europe and just some sightseeing.

9:28

Just for independent travelers that want

9:30

to splice in a little bit of this Monuments Men history

9:33

in their European travels, are there

9:35

stops that are of particular interest

9:38

in this topic? Well, Rick,

9:40

there are so many great places in

9:43

Europe. Of course, Paris with the Louvre, the

9:45

Jeu de Pomme Museum, which everyone

9:47

that walks through the Place de la Concorde

9:49

walked by without knowing its pivotal

9:51

role during the war. Berchtesgaden

9:54

is a fantastically interesting place. It's

9:56

horrific in some senses. The heart

9:59

of Adolf Hitler. Hitler's existence there

10:01

in the Austrian Alps. It's

10:03

beautiful up on top of Eagle's Nest, and

10:06

you can walk through remarkably

10:08

well-designed visitor center to understand

10:11

why that part of Austria was so important

10:14

to Hitler. There are smaller

10:16

places along the way, a cemetery

10:18

outside Maastricht where one of the monument's officers

10:21

is buried, a fellow named Walter Hutchhausen,

10:23

one of two monument's officers killed during combat

10:26

protecting works of art. The Castle of Nuschwanstein,

10:29

another place that Harry Etlinger and the monument's

10:31

men were, where some 20,000 paintings

10:33

stolen from the French collectors

10:35

were found as a result of the secret information

10:38

Rose Vallon had gathered. People

10:40

go to the Castle of Nuschwanstein and everything looks

10:43

pretty hunky dory and Disney-esque,

10:45

but it was a very, very different scene years

10:48

ago, really one of the key

10:50

storage facilities. We have

10:53

many photographs from that experience in

10:55

my first book, Rescuing Da Vinci, and

10:57

you won't find it in the guidebooks there. Surprisingly,

11:00

when you go today, you will not know about this part

11:02

of the role that that castle played during

11:04

World

11:04

War II.

11:05

When you enjoy the art treasures of

11:07

Europe today, let's close by just

11:09

having you share which spot you're most

11:12

moved and thankful for the work of these

11:14

monument's men. For me, it's not

11:16

just a specific work of art. I certainly

11:18

love to see that great painting by Leonardo da

11:20

Vinci, the charter rescue lady with

11:23

an ermine in Krakow

11:25

out of a personal affection and Leonardo's great

11:28

brilliance. When I think about these

11:30

monument's officers and what they went through just

11:32

surviving the war, surviving combat,

11:34

for me, when I think about places such

11:36

as Munich that had the

11:39

Fuhrerbau and one of the

11:41

Nazi party headquarters that stored

11:43

so many of these works of art, to

11:45

me, it's a remarkable achievement

11:47

to think that these monument's officers stayed

11:49

in Europe and worked in what was

11:51

the Nazi party headquarters in Hitler's

11:54

own office there in Konig's

11:57

plots, gathering these works of art

11:59

and staying there. trying to sort out where they came

12:01

from and the irony working in these,

12:04

the headquarters of evil during the war in Munich

12:07

with all these works of art trying to get them back. It's

12:09

an incredibly heroic effort. It's an

12:11

honor for me to represent them today through

12:13

the work of the Monuments Men Foundation. Robert

12:16

Edson, I'm really thankful for the work that

12:18

you do to keep the mission of the Monuments Men

12:20

alive and share it with our public.

12:23

Robert Edson, best wishes with your work and

12:25

thanks so much for being with us. Thank

12:27

you Rick.

12:44

You'll find a roster of people from many

12:46

nations who helped protect the art treasures of

12:48

Europe during the Second World War, plus

12:50

a list of those who continue their work today,

12:53

including the U.S. Army's Monuments Officers Training

12:56

Program. It's on the website for

12:58

the Monuments Men and Women Foundation at

13:01

monumentsmenandwomenfnd.org.

13:04

We also have links to their work and to Robert

13:06

Edson's earlier appearances with us at

13:08

ricksteves.com slash radio. We'll

13:14

hear how the hearty comfort foods of Belgium

13:16

may have changed a bit over the years. But

13:18

first, Fred Hotkin helps us search

13:20

the overlooked corners of Italy for

13:22

its homegrown culinary traditions.

13:24

Let's

13:26

travel with Rick Steves.

13:30

Italy is my favorite country. I simply

13:32

love everything about eating in Italy and

13:35

every region, practically every town boasts

13:37

its own culinary specialties. For

13:40

years, I've admired a book called Italy

13:43

for the Gourmet Traveler. It was

13:45

a definitive brick of a guide to Italy's regional

13:48

foods and restaurants compiled and updated

13:50

by Fred Plotkin. Ever since

13:52

he was a college student, Fred has spent substantial

13:55

time every year getting acquainted with the intricacies

13:57

of Italy and revealing them to the world.

14:00

We became friends from Fred's appearances

14:02

on Travel with Rick Steves, so it was

14:05

only natural for us to co-author a sequel

14:07

to Fred's classic guide. The recipe

14:10

was simple. Two parts Fred's gourmet expertise,

14:13

two parts my own easy access approach

14:15

to eating in Italy. Seasoned with

14:17

an appreciation for how the soul of Italy

14:19

starts in the kitchen. We've invited

14:21

Fred in for a closer look at four regions

14:23

of Italy that have been underappreciated by

14:26

most travelers and the Epicarian

14:28

pleasures they offer. Fred, welcome

14:30

back. My pleasure to be with you. I

14:33

just think this partnership has been really fun because

14:35

you just live and breathe Italian

14:38

culture and you're an opera aficionado

14:41

and you speak the language and I can barely

14:43

pronounce the names of the dishes on the menu.

14:46

In fact, I can't pronounce a lot of them, but

14:48

together we can make fine Italian

14:50

cuisine accessible to our travelers and

14:52

for me that is really, really a mission

14:55

worth embracing. I agree. We

14:58

could have called our book, I'll Have What He's Having.

15:01

You know, I'll have what you're having if I'm ever in a

15:03

restaurant with you, that's for sure. Hey Fred,

15:05

our book has three sections, the basics

15:08

of course, finding a good restaurant and of course

15:10

by course coverage of the food. In the

15:12

appendix, I had so much fun, we

15:14

listed our favorite restaurants and it's called Fred's

15:17

Favorite 50 and Rick's Favorite 50 and

15:19

the core of the book is a region by region

15:21

rundown covering Italy, the

15:24

entire boot from knee to

15:26

toe, all 20 regions. We always seem to talk

15:29

about our people in travel and tour guides,

15:32

talk about the famous places where everybody goes,

15:34

but you're really into the

15:37

less famous regions that are less

15:39

visited and often underappreciated.

15:42

Let's talk about a few of those in this discussion

15:44

here. Yes, because the

15:46

point is the places that are less visited

15:49

are less spoiled. They maintain

15:51

their character. So, and

15:53

that's why I think it's worth the trouble

15:55

to get out there and to remember it's not just how

15:57

many famous sites are on your bucket list, it's how you get

15:59

there. How many regions can you just really

16:02

become a temporary local in? Let's start off

16:04

with Sardinia. This is, you know, there's the two big

16:06

islands there between France and Italy and the Mediterranean.

16:08

Corsica, that's French, and Sardinia. Sicily

16:11

is another island, but Sicily is kind of just a stone's

16:14

throw away from the mainland. Sardinia is really

16:17

more on its own, isn't it? It's more isolated.

16:20

The Italian word for island is isola,

16:23

I-S-O-L-A. It's the same root

16:25

as isolation. In other words, it's

16:27

really off on its own. It's particular

16:29

among many things about Sardinia. They

16:32

have what's called a blue zone, and this

16:34

is one of the places in the world where people live

16:37

the longest. And it's a combination

16:39

of what they eat, how they live,

16:41

the quality of life, the clean air, and

16:45

what people don't know about Sardinia. They

16:47

assume that it's a seafood place,

16:50

and it is

16:51

because it's an island. However, it's

16:54

one of the biggest meat-eating regions

16:56

of Italy, and there are two reasons for that. One

16:59

is that malaria surrounded the coast

17:01

until 1950, so people

17:04

lived inland to stay away from malaria.

17:06

But number two, conquerors attempted

17:08

to come to the island and take over

17:11

Sardinia, so people lived inland

17:14

in these little dwellings called nuragi,

17:17

which are these ancient stone dwellings, and

17:20

they lived with their sheep. So

17:22

therefore, the sheep's milk

17:25

cheeses of Sardinia are just

17:27

to me the best I know anywhere in the world, and

17:29

they're great ones in Spain and elsewhere in Italy.

17:32

These are just the best by a long shot.

17:35

And there are shops where they – it's nothing

17:37

but sheep's milk cheese. It's phenomenal.

17:40

So, pecorino is the word for sheep's cheese,

17:43

is that right? Yes, and in fact, people should

17:45

know that most of the pecorino produced

17:47

in Tuscany, which is famous, the

17:49

people came from Sardinia to produce

17:52

it in Tuscany. The Sardinians are the

17:54

experts on this. So when we think of Sardinia,

17:56

we're thinking of pastoral, sheep-centric

17:59

communities. rural communities

18:02

and also I suppose their heritage

18:04

because there's a lot of honey and almonds

18:06

and nuts that would be like in

18:08

Sicily the Arabic heritage. Food that travels,

18:11

not so much Arabic Phoenician but

18:13

food that travels because a shepherd

18:16

could not take fresh bread so he takes

18:18

something called Panay Fratao

18:20

or Panay Kalasau. This

18:22

is sort of a crisp bread like you see

18:24

in Scandinavia or the American

18:27

West where bread has

18:29

to last and the shepherds would then use

18:31

oil or water or tomato sauce

18:34

out in the countryside great

18:36

on pecorino and perhaps a fried egg

18:39

and that's a traditional shepherd's meal.

18:41

There you go. And you can find it in restaurants

18:44

in the towns but I've eaten this

18:47

surrounded by sheep out in Sardinia. Sardinia

18:49

by the way has fantastic wines people

18:52

don't know this. There's a red called Kanonau

18:55

which they think is part of the secret of

18:57

long life that there's something particular

18:59

in this red wine that is very

19:02

health giving. There Mentino is the

19:04

white and you mentioned the honey there's

19:06

something called Abamele which is it's

19:09

like aged honey that they use

19:11

as medicine.

19:13

I learned from us that when you're talking about the wines

19:15

in the book you've included Vino de Tallyo

19:18

wine for cutting it's so rough and heavy I guess

19:20

that's its nickname.

19:22

Yes in other words when a wine gives

19:24

body so for example southern

19:26

Italy Sicily parts of the south

19:29

Sardinia produced wines that in the

19:31

past were very heavy because

19:33

that's what they had. They would be shipped

19:35

north to places like Piedmonte

19:38

Lombardy where the wines were lighter

19:41

to give a little more substance not so much Piedmonte

19:43

but more Lombardy and give substance

19:46

and also Amelia Romagna.

19:48

Fred Potkin's on the line from his home in Manhattan

19:50

as we celebrate the culinary pleasures

19:52

in the lesser visited parts of Italy on

19:54

Travel with Rick Steves. Fred

19:57

co-authored Rick Steves Italy for Food

19:59

Lovers with me. It updates his

20:01

classic Italy for the Gourmet Traveler

20:03

for each of Italy's 20 regions. And

20:06

it includes our 100 favorite restaurant

20:09

recommendations all across the country. There's

20:11

more at ricksteves.com slash radio.

20:15

Fred, let's travel now to the region

20:18

north of Venice that snuggles right up

20:20

there in the corner next to Austrian Slovenia,

20:23

with the Dolomites on the top and the beaches

20:25

on the south. What's that?

20:26

It's Friuli Venezia Giulia. And

20:29

to me, this is the great

20:32

undiscovered region. It's been discovered a bit

20:34

about 25 years ago. Now I wrote

20:36

a book of the food of the region called

20:38

La Terra Fortunata, the Fortunate Land,

20:41

which was an ironic title because

20:43

the region has known war. It was

20:45

one of the centers of World War One. It

20:48

suffered in World War Two. Hemingway was

20:50

injured there. Hemingway loved this region.

20:53

There have been massive earthquakes. There

20:55

have been all kinds of devastation, invasions

20:58

from Austria, invasions by Attila

21:00

the Hun even, destroying Roman

21:03

civilizations. And yet it

21:06

is one of the most remarkable food

21:08

places I know in the world. And the reason for

21:10

that is it uses more spices

21:13

than any other Italian region. Most Italian

21:15

food is herbal with some spices. But

21:18

in Friuli Venezia Giulia, spices

21:21

enter everything, which doesn't mean it's spicy

21:23

and hot. But for example, you

21:25

could take a piece of veal or pork

21:28

and use nutmeg in it. That

21:30

gives a very unusual flavor. But

21:32

then the Friulians, more than anyone

21:34

else I know in the world, know how to match

21:36

wines with foods. You don't match

21:39

it with the protein, in other words, fish or chicken

21:41

or beef. You match it with the flavoring.

21:43

So nutmeg goes with Cabernet Franc.

21:46

And there are so many grape varieties in

21:48

this region of world-class wines.

21:52

That, for example, they make a Sauvignon

21:54

Blanc that's different from most. And

21:56

it goes beautifully with rock shrimp, with

21:59

eggs, with white wine. asparagus. They

22:01

know everything. My knowledge of

22:03

food pairing with wine came

22:06

primarily from this region. My nose,

22:08

my palate were developed there. And

22:10

people who are very serious about

22:12

learning this stuff really

22:15

need to go and spend time in Fili Venetia

22:17

Julia, which as you said, it's tiny.

22:19

It has the Adriatic, so fantastic fish.

22:22

It has the plains for polenta. It

22:24

has Procuta di San Daniele, the only

22:27

rival to Parma. It has the

22:29

Alps with amazing berries and

22:31

game and all kinds

22:34

of flavors in this little region,

22:37

plus amazing wine. There's

22:39

no other word for it but amazing wine. Fred,

22:41

you talked about its war heritage

22:44

as many

22:44

people have rampaged through there from

22:46

Attila's time all the way up to the Nazis. Does

22:49

that mean it's in peaceful times? That means it's

22:51

a crossroads and that brings in more

22:53

flavors. You've got the Austrian and

22:56

the Slavic influence. Does that have anything to

22:58

do with the cuisine and the spiciness of

23:00

it relative to the part of it? It does because the

23:02

spice trade, spices were used

23:04

not only for food flavoring but preservation

23:07

of food and for

23:09

medicinal purposes.

23:11

So the people of the region came to use

23:13

spices, also herbs, but primarily

23:16

spices, as medicine.

23:18

Also Fred, it's the home of Trieste

23:20

which was the Habsburg port

23:23

on the Mediterranean. I would

23:25

imagine it leaves a little bit of Habsburg heritage, Austrian

23:27

heritage like the coffee culture

23:29

or the cakes and pastries.

23:32

I agree with you mostly. I would only argue that

23:34

Austria got coffee culture from Italy

23:36

rather than the other one and from Turkey.

23:39

Then I love Austria. I spend a lot of time in Vienna.

23:42

But in learning about Frilli, Vanessa and

23:44

Julia, I went to cooking school in Vienna

23:47

to understand the relationship. Trieste

23:50

was the port for the Austrian Empire

23:52

from 1361 to 1918. So

23:55

that is a huge amount of history

23:58

and the Hams... the Prague

24:00

ham, Prague being part of the Austrian Empire,

24:03

was made in Trieste. The Romans

24:05

brought pork to Trieste.

24:08

They founded Trieste. And

24:11

from there, it spread north and east. So

24:13

a lot of the pork products that we see

24:16

in the German-speaking countries and the Slavic

24:19

countries came from Trieste.

24:21

The wood around Trieste is

24:24

used to make many of the violins and musical

24:26

instruments, but also furniture that you see

24:28

in Vienna. Fred Plotkin's

24:30

our guide to eating off the beaten path in

24:33

Italy right now on Travel with Rick Steves.

24:35

Fred co-authored the Rick Steves Italy

24:37

for Food Lovers book to update Italy's

24:40

regionally based cuisines and attractions.

24:43

It features photos of what we're talking about

24:45

and glossaries with the Italian terms

24:47

that let you enjoy them as well. Fred

24:49

has a presence on Facebook. There's more

24:52

at ricksteves.com Fred,

24:55

you make me want to travel to Friuli, Venizia,

24:57

Giulia, and I really love

25:00

the description you have in our book about the

25:02

characteristic Osteria. Tell

25:04

us just very briefly before we travel on the

25:06

experience you'll have when you go into one of these traditional

25:09

little salt of the earth restaurants in Osteria.

25:12

They put a branch

25:14

outside to let you know that they're serving, and

25:17

it's often done when the wine is due, and

25:19

they will make dishes that are rustic,

25:21

but from right there, that

25:23

match with the wine of the place.

25:26

So they show off their wine to its best

25:28

advantage by creating food to go with

25:30

the wine rather than the other way around.

25:32

All right, let's travel south. Now everybody

25:34

goes to Tuscany, and everybody goes to Umbria,

25:37

and everybody goes to Rome. If you were

25:39

to go from that region to the east until

25:41

you hit the Adriatic coastline, that

25:44

region's called Le Marche, like in English that

25:46

would be the marches. What's the heritage

25:48

of that?

25:49

This is a region that's one-third

25:51

mountain, one-third plain, and one-third coast.

25:54

You don't get there easily. You

25:56

have to intend to go there. So

25:59

it means that it's been hidden away but it was

26:01

under the

26:09

salt,

26:19

fish, everything the Romans wanted to consume,

26:22

they found at high levels of quality

26:24

in the market. And also when you go inland

26:26

you've got a lot of lamb, you've

26:28

got a spreadable smoked salami. At

26:32

least there's prosciutto, right? Some very nice

26:34

prosciutto. From Carpena and but

26:37

maybe the signature dish is brodeto

26:39

which is a fish stew. It's

26:41

often called a seafood stew, it's really a fish

26:43

stew. North of Ancona the

26:46

capital it has 13 fishes, south

26:48

of Ancona it has nine fishes. Wow.

26:51

Now for our last stop on our offbeat

26:54

underappreciated less touristy look

26:56

at eating in our travels through Italy,

26:59

Fred take us to Lombardy. This is

27:01

the region famous for Milano.

27:04

As you write in our book there's four horizontal

27:07

bands. You've got the Po River which is fertile

27:09

fields, you've got an industrial plain

27:11

south of Milan, you've got the Lake District

27:13

which is very romantic and people love that, and

27:16

then you got the Alps. I was hiking around Mount Blanc

27:18

and I had one night in Italy we had a beautiful

27:20

dinner in the Italian town up in the north

27:23

and the valley of Asta. Tell us about the

27:25

cuisine in Lombard.

27:26

Well the Alps and Lombardy are called the Valtilina

27:30

and many people think the greatest current

27:32

red wines in all of Italy are produced

27:34

in the Valtilina, not in Tuscany, not

27:36

in Piedmont, but the Valtilina. Most

27:39

people acknowledge that the best sparkling wine

27:41

comes from the west coast of Lake

27:44

Garda which is the Lombardy side. The

27:46

rice cultivation means that you have

27:49

magnificent risotto throughout the region,

27:51

but to me the symbol of Lombardy

27:54

is the cow. No region

27:56

produces more varieties of cow's

27:59

milk cheese. then does Lombardy

28:01

at an incredibly high quality.

28:04

I think my favorite cheese is Telegio,

28:06

which is a creamy cheese from near Bergamo,

28:09

but Parmigiano is from their Gorgonzola,

28:11

Strachino, Bito. Endless

28:14

numbers of wonderful cow's milk cheeses

28:17

that are produced in the high alpine valleys

28:19

in the plains. Cremona is

28:22

the biggest milk town in Italy,

28:24

so my mouth waters. These are

28:26

a lot of classic,

28:29

what I was thinking are Italian, but boy to eat them

28:31

in Lombardy makes a lot of sense. And of course

28:33

Milan is the big city there, and it

28:35

acts like it's the capital of Italy if

28:38

it's not the capital, but it's certainly the capital of

28:40

fashion and design where we find

28:42

Armani and Versace and opera.

28:44

And opera, glaus calla. And Milan

28:47

has a great food

28:49

heritage. Talk a little bit about the

28:51

aperitivo custom that's so popular there.

28:53

Milan

28:54

we think compari

28:56

is from there and certainly beautiful

28:58

cafes are from there. Milan

29:01

always prided itself on for every

29:03

church at Rome there was a bank in Milan.

29:05

They like to think they're more hard-working

29:08

than other Italians. They're not. They work

29:10

very hard, but most Italians work very

29:12

hard. And the Milanese also

29:14

play hard so that after their work

29:17

day they'll go out to one of their local bars

29:20

or cafes and have

29:22

an aperitivo, have

29:25

food that might be served by the cafe.

29:27

And I advise people don't eat the entire

29:29

platter of food in front of you, but pick

29:31

it goes with the drink. It's not dinner, so

29:34

to speak. But the quality is so high

29:37

in things like that you would find

29:39

little fried risotto balls

29:41

or you'd find beautiful prosciutto

29:43

with gorgonzola. Combinations

29:46

that stimulate the palate and

29:49

make your drink taste better. Well, if you

29:51

got all these great examples of the ingredients,

29:53

if you've got the Armani and the Versace

29:56

and Lascala, you would think the food

29:58

would be in the evening. dining

30:00

experiences would be equally rich and elegant.

30:03

Fred, thank you so much for this tour of

30:05

Italy to four underappreciated

30:07

regions. We're in Sardinia, we're

30:09

in Friuli, Vanizia Giulia, Lamarche,

30:12

and last Lombardy. I'd like to close

30:15

just with a favorite word of mine, pietiare.

30:18

When I meet somebody, I know to say pietiare.

30:20

That's nice to meet you, I think, when you're just

30:22

meeting somebody as a polite word, but it's

30:25

also an important part of your appreciation of

30:27

Italian cuisine. And when you say

30:29

to me pietiare,

30:29

I reply pietiare mio, the

30:32

pleasure is all mine. The pleasure

30:34

is about savoring, about enjoyment,

30:37

it's not hedonism, it's about having

30:40

your senses activated and alert

30:42

to what you're doing. So it's not mindlessly

30:45

putting a drink or food in your mouth.

30:47

It's pausing to really understand

30:50

what this is doing to you, where

30:52

it might be from, and how good you feel.

30:55

And you feel better when you are

30:58

focused on food because we're

31:00

not talking about being fancy or being foody,

31:02

we're talking about every mouthful,

31:04

every sip as a culture.

31:06

Wow. So when I shake somebody's hand in Italy

31:08

and I always say pietiare, that's

31:10

nice to meet you, but it's also, in

31:12

my mind, I'm so thankful to be able

31:15

to approach your culture in a sensuous

31:17

way and take a moment and bring a little

31:19

understanding and get the most out of this

31:21

beautiful experience. Pietiare mio.

31:32

Fred Plotkin's also known for his expertise

31:35

in opera and classical music and

31:37

his books Opera 101 and Classical

31:39

Music 101. Fred hosts

31:41

conversations with leading people in the arts

31:44

on the Adagio platform. It's

31:46

live on Friday afternoons at 2 Eastern

31:48

time and archived on YouTube

31:50

as Fred Plotkin on Fridays. Get

31:53

a taste of some of Europe's hardiest foods

31:55

from Belgium. That's next on Travel

31:58

with Rick Steves.

32:00

I will never forget a waiter in Brussels bragging,

32:03

in Belgium we eat as hearty as the Germans

32:05

and as fine as the French. The

32:07

Belgians are famous for their waffles

32:09

and fries and beer, at least from this American

32:12

perspective, but they're also respected for

32:14

their high cuisine, their gastronomy. Right

32:16

now we're joined by two friends and tour guides

32:18

from Belgium, Nina Derik and Ferdinand

32:20

Domingue, to talk about Belgian taste

32:23

treats. Ferdi and Nina, thanks for joining

32:25

us. Alright. Here we go. For

32:27

the traveler there's all sorts of trendy and high

32:29

cuisine options, but when you think back

32:31

to your childhood, what was the go-to dish

32:34

that your mom would serve you?

32:35

Main dish every day at lunchtime

32:38

is the main meal, because I'm for farmer's

32:40

soup. Often

32:42

pigeon soup, because Belgians particularly

32:45

liked pigeon racing, and all the losers

32:47

went into the soup. No, really.

32:50

In the farm community? Yeah, I have had a lot

32:52

of loser soup, as you call it. Loser

32:54

soup. Losing pigeon

32:56

would end up in the soup at

32:57

lunch. Yeah, you ring their neck if they don't

32:59

win a prize, and then you go in the soup. And there's

33:01

a lot of goodness in soup, mainly that's why

33:04

you had soup. Everything is in there. Mothers are happy,

33:06

kids have had soup.

33:07

Well, there's happiness in soup. Followed

33:09

by

33:10

potatoes, everyday potatoes, storage

33:13

potatoes without any taste. Yeah,

33:15

you put them in the window and you sell it, and then you have them,

33:17

I don't know what you do to those things, you rehydrate

33:19

them and then you eat them boiled, with

33:22

vegetables and bechamel

33:24

sauce, with a lot of nutmeg. So

33:26

you call it storage potatoes, they're just sort of

33:28

a store for the winter. They're just filler. They

33:31

lose their taste. Yeah, boiled up. Always

33:33

boiled. Always boiled.

33:34

Or once a week fries, of course.

33:36

Once a week fries. Was that like a luxury

33:38

to have them fried or something? No, that was tradition.

33:41

And that was always on the same day, you remember that? Yes,

33:43

that's right. I think we had fries on Thursdays.

33:47

And all the rest of the week we had potatoes. Boiled

33:49

up on nuts, yes. So if a child

33:52

today says, oh, I just had that yesterday, you

33:54

would kind of go, when I was a kid. When I was

33:56

a kid. You had the date of every day and you

33:58

were thankful. Painting. of Van Gogh, the

34:01

potato eaters. That's my family.

34:03

I'm sad. A bunch of humble farm

34:05

people gathered around a table with one candle

34:08

and a bowl of potatoes to share. And

34:11

that's a true story. I mean, it's not that you just invent it, but it really,

34:13

nowadays, it wasn't. And that was it. But

34:16

you still have a love of potatoes.

34:18

And I've been to places that cook up the Belgian

34:21

fries. What

34:22

kind of French fries? What do you call them? The

34:24

French fries because they cut. The way they cut

34:26

the potatoes. That's called the French

34:28

cut. That's a French cut. They're not the French fries.

34:30

And let's get it right. We say Flemish fries.

34:32

Flemish, yeah. It's Belgian invention, though. Don't

34:35

forget. Don't ever forget. French fries are... Flemish

34:38

fries. And that is literally Flemish

34:40

fries. Flemish fries. We

34:42

say Vlamps-fritte-met-Marniez. Now, I

34:45

have a friend who's a restaurateur in Bruges,

34:47

and he took me into his kitchen, and he was

34:49

evangelical about his Flemse-fritte,

34:52

his French fries. He explained how

34:54

they... I think they did twice through

34:56

the... They bake them first,

34:58

or cooking, or put them in oil,

35:00

certain temperature, and then they take them out,

35:02

and then they wait until they cool off, and then they fry

35:05

them again on a higher temperature, so they become

35:07

crisp and a little bit colorful. And as a Belgian,

35:09

do you recognize the difference? Oh, yeah.

35:11

And you have to have a good dollop of really fatty

35:13

mayonnaise

35:13

on top of the double fried fries.

35:16

And the best mayonnaise is when you're making yourself.

35:18

Yes. The first recipe I ever learned at home

35:20

is how to make mayonnaise.

35:21

Yeah. And it's so easy to make, and it's so

35:24

much better. So what's the trick of good mayonnaise, then? A

35:27

little bit of oil, a little bit of mustard. That's it.

35:29

And a bit of salt. A little salt. And

35:31

you make mayonnaise.

35:32

In the Netherlands, they put sugar in a mayonnaise.

35:34

Yeah, they make them sweet. We don't know how to be

35:36

different probably. My

35:36

mother would say, that's not Catholic.

35:38

Meaning, that's not right.

35:40

Is that right? Oh, yeah. That's

35:43

not Catholic. How do you say that in Flemish? That's

35:45

not Catholic. That is not Catholic. Well, we would say

35:47

that's not kosher. That's not kosher. That's

35:49

it. That's Jewish. That's not

35:52

kosher. That's not Catholic. That's not Catholic.

35:54

So if you're a traveler to this day, you can go to the

35:56

good place and get a cone of fries and

35:58

the most American

35:59

would go mayonnaise, I won't catch it.

36:02

But mayonnaise is the one that's the thing

36:04

you put on there. We used to be able to get

36:06

them in newspaper.

36:08

Right. Oh, I remember that. But that's now

36:10

not hygienic. Also,

36:13

grey shrimp are popular in Belgium.

36:15

Nina, can you explain to me what's the enthusiasm

36:17

for the shrimp? They're

36:18

very small, they're very tasty, they come from our

36:21

North Sea.

36:21

Just off the coast of Belgium. North Sea shrimp,

36:23

yes. I remember

36:24

when our small, my mother, every

36:26

Wednesday goes to the market, buys

36:28

a kilo of grey shrimp, the evening television

36:31

is not on, you'd all sit around with

36:33

my brothers and sisters, mother and father, maybe my

36:35

grandparents, and we'd all be peeling the

36:37

shrimp. And talking, and my dad

36:39

would bring the beer, and it takes you

36:41

a long time to peel this tiny little shrimp.

36:44

They're so savory. In Bruges,

36:46

they have shrimp, fresh peeled shrimp

36:49

like that, that you peel yourself, and

36:51

then you have little shots of lemon

36:53

gin. It works beautifully, and I do that actually

36:56

with lemon gin. And shrimp together.

36:58

And that's a beautiful experience, and you can find that in towns

37:00

all over Belgium.

37:01

Yes. So when I got married to

37:03

Jamie, the Englishman, and we were

37:05

home, I said, Jamie, we're going to have this kilo

37:08

of shrimp together with my family, just to bond

37:10

with the family. I went to the local market

37:12

and the vendor said, you're not

37:15

from here, are you, which really hurt me? I

37:17

said, why? He says, shrimp that you can peel,

37:20

we haven't sold that for decades,

37:23

because you young housewives

37:25

don't have time to peel shrimp anymore. So

37:28

there's no demand for that

37:29

anymore. Because the peeling the Grecian was sort

37:31

of a way to be convivial. Yes, that's right.

37:33

It was tradition, and that's

37:35

when we talked.

37:36

I've done that in Denmark,

37:38

on small islands in little villages

37:40

far from the mainstream, where you have a table

37:43

full of shrimp, and together with a good Danish

37:45

beer,

37:46

you peel the shrimp,

37:47

you talk, and you drink the beer. It's

37:49

a beautiful thing.

37:50

Because you're busy with something, and then you just talk

37:52

without...

37:52

It loosens you up. This is Travel

37:54

with Rick Steves. We're talking peeling shrimp in Belgium

37:56

here with Verdi and Nina. Our phone number is 877-333-8

38:00

And Nicole's coming

38:02

in from Victoria in British Columbia.

38:04

Hi Nicole. Hi.

38:06

I just wanted to say one of the best meals I had

38:08

in Belgium was

38:09

mule frits. Oh,

38:11

mule. That's the French word for muscles. You

38:14

know, all my life you live in Victoria, you know what

38:16

it's like. The pilings on the dock were just

38:19

filled with these muscles

38:21

and I never dreamed of eating them and

38:23

then the same exact creatures

38:26

on the finest menus in Belgium.

38:29

Just delicious and also with the mayo that

38:32

your guests were mentioning

38:33

before. So let's talk about the muscles

38:35

in the cuisine, Verdonando. How

38:38

do you enjoy the muscles when you're in Belgium? We

38:40

enjoy them very much. I mean, there's a lot of restaurants

38:42

where you can eat them and they're all good to

38:44

eat but I prefer I'm kind of a hobby cook.

38:48

I love to cook and I cook it myself and it's very

38:50

easy to make. A little bit of onions, a little bit of celery

38:53

and that's a little bit of white wine. You just steam it

38:55

for 10 minutes and they're done. So that's

38:57

the unadulterated, the pure kind

38:59

of belt. And there's different kinds of muscles,

39:02

you know, there's different shapes or sizes I would

39:04

say. The small, the big and the jumbo like

39:06

we call them. What's the tastiest? I

39:09

think the big ones. You need good, big

39:11

muscles in the shell. So

39:13

typically you'd get a kilo or something

39:15

of muscles per person. That's about 2.2 pounds.

39:18

That's about 2.2 kilos

39:20

and it comes with a pile of good fries, Flemish

39:23

fries. Do you clean your own muscles when you get them? I clean

39:25

them myself. I clean them. That's

39:27

the most important thing, clean your muscles because

39:30

you need to rinse them because otherwise if you have sand

39:32

in them. Do you rinse them in flowery water? No,

39:35

I rinse them. The last rinse I would do in milk.

39:37

This is when they're still alive? Well, they're

39:40

fresh. Yeah, because when we did clams,

39:42

you would put them in the bucket and they would rinse themselves. Yeah,

39:44

but we rinse them with water and the last one I'd rinse

39:46

them with milk so they can spit all the stuff out. You kind

39:49

of purify them. How else you eat them? You

39:51

eat sand and it doesn't

39:53

come over. In a restaurant, how do you enjoy the muscles

39:56

in Belgium?

39:57

In white wine sauce.

39:59

I usually go for a

40:02

natural. Yeah, natural or white

40:04

muscle. I don't want anything else with muscle. No,

40:06

I mean, otherwise you lose the taste of the muscle. The

40:08

more you put in, the less is better. Nicole,

40:11

is this bringing back memories when you were in Belgium? Oh

40:14

yes. Makes me want to go back. Where

40:17

do you remember eating muscles in Belgium? On

40:19

the main square? Yes.

40:21

I love sitting on the main square there and having

40:23

my muscles and looking out at the greatest square in

40:25

Europe, La Grande Place. La Grande Place.

40:28

Nina. Another type of muscles

40:30

we have from Brussels. Muscles

40:32

from Brussels, the name for the actor

40:33

Jean-Claude Fandame. You

40:37

know Jean-Claude Fandame, the actor. I mean, he plays

40:39

in all those action movies. Okay, so he's Muscles

40:41

and Muscles. Muscle art. Nicole, thanks

40:43

for your call. Thank you. Enjoy your

40:45

muscles in Brussels. Thank you. This is Travel with

40:47

Rick Steves. We're talking muscles in Brussels

40:50

and Belgian cuisine. We Americans

40:52

always know about Brussels sprouts. And

40:54

I realize that they've been cultivated in Belgium

40:56

for a long time. But I was wondering, we

40:59

call them Brussels sprouts. Do you call them

41:01

Brussels sprouts? No, we call them sproutes.

41:03

We just

41:03

call them sprouts. Never. I

41:06

think they originated in the Brussels area.

41:08

Yes, that's right. I think in Saint-Catalina-Wavre. Yes,

41:10

that's right. There's a

41:12

little place outside of Brussels. And

41:15

they call them sproutes. Outside of

41:17

Belgium, logically. Nobody calls them Brussels

41:19

sprouts. Okay. Is that part of your cuisine?

41:21

Do people eat them very much? Well, as a kid, we never liked them. I

41:23

don't know about you. We were full sphagnum. Of

41:26

course. Same thing here. We were the same

41:28

all over the world. Yes. There

41:30

was no choice. If that was served, you eat it. For instance, you cannot

41:32

leave the table of things. Worse than spinach. Worse

41:34

than spinach. Yeah, worse than spinach. Undives.

41:37

Isn't that a Belgian undive? Undives, yeah. Undives

41:39

is same. We call them undives. We never say Belgian or

41:41

anything. I

41:43

never call them undives. We call them witloof.

41:45

Yeah. White leaves. White

41:48

leaves. You mean the undive, the white one?

41:50

Yes. The French call them the chicon. The

41:53

chicon, we call them witloof. Yeah. When

41:55

I was seven years old, we had the World's Fair here in Seattle. And

41:57

that was Seattle's coming out party, where we recognized

41:59

there's a man.

41:59

big world out here. And my most vivid

42:02

memory in 1962 at the Seattle's World Fair,

42:05

my grandfather took me to the most expensive

42:07

dessert at the fair and it was

42:09

a Belgian waffle. A waffle

42:11

with strawberries and whipped cream and that

42:14

is a exciting part of travel to Belgium now

42:16

especially if you have that kind of a memory of a Belgian waffle.

42:19

The waffle was called Brussels waffle

42:22

because they still call them that way. Brussels waffle

42:24

is a waffle with fruit and whipped

42:26

cream, right? And sometimes you have a Brussels

42:29

waffle supreme with a bowl of

42:31

ice cream. A supreme comes with ice cream and

42:34

Monique's calling in from West Newbury

42:36

in Massachusetts. Monique have you had some

42:38

waffle memories in Belgium?

42:40

Yes I have. The waffles there were

42:42

so different from the ones that I was used to in

42:44

the U.S. They were just crispy

42:47

and they had a sweetness to them that

42:49

was so different you didn't even need any toppings on

42:51

them. And when I came home

42:54

I looked into trying to make them that way at home

42:56

and I found that the recipe it seemed

42:58

like it was made out of a yeast riz

43:00

and dough rather than just a batter

43:02

that we usually use at home and

43:05

they had little pearls of sugar in

43:07

them and I think that was what made all the difference.

43:09

Is that what

43:10

a Liege style waffle is? Yes.

43:12

Because I've noticed that it's a different texture and when

43:15

you're on the street and you're going to the waffle stand

43:17

you have options. Nina what are the options?

43:19

I think the Liege waffle that is the pull

43:22

sugar waffle. It's thicker. It's

43:24

chewier. What they do

43:26

is that when they bake them and they

43:28

put a little bit of sugar on top so

43:30

the sugar caramelized and that's

43:32

why you have the Gouffre de Liege. The

43:34

Gouffre de Liege. The French way of saying

43:37

the waffle of Liege. And Liege

43:39

is a town in Wallons. Is that

43:41

the French speaking town in Belgium?

43:44

Monique what other taste treats do you remember

43:46

from your time in Belgium?

43:47

Another thing that I had there was water

43:49

zouy. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Water

43:53

zouy. Traditionally I think have fish but the version

43:56

I had with chicken and with potatoes and leeks and

43:58

it was so delicious that I went back to the same

44:00

restaurant the next night and had the same thing again.

44:03

Wow. And I tried making that at home as well

44:05

and that I had pretty good success

44:07

making but I would love to try try the

44:10

fish for it in some time when I go back.

44:12

Now that sounds like a traditional soup or

44:14

stew that you might have. Waterzooi

44:17

is from the city of Ghent. Ghentse

44:20

waterzooi. Don't you live in Ghent? No,

44:22

Genk. Genk. Oh, there's two. It's about a hundred

44:24

miles. Okay. Ghentse waterzooi,

44:27

it's a famous dish. If it's made good,

44:29

correctly, it's a delish. It's

44:32

a meal soup. It's a meal soup. You got chicken,

44:35

potatoes, a little

44:37

thicker broth in there but it's

44:40

it's yummy. Is it waterzooi? Waterzooi.

44:43

Actually what it means is a mess of water.

44:45

A mess of water. Water is water. Water

44:47

is water. Zooi means a mess,

44:50

making a mess out of water. I love this. Or

44:52

zooien, from the verb zooien, that

44:54

means to boil. To boil water.

44:55

And you just chuck

44:57

things in. To boil

45:00

a big mess. Sounds like a good peasant station

45:02

from Flanders. And then you can

45:04

have your waterzooi, your mess of boiled water

45:07

with stuff thrown in and take a little walk

45:09

and drop by a waffle stand and

45:11

have a nice dessert, a Belgian waffle. 5,000

45:14

calories. I

45:14

think every family has

45:17

a waffle machine, don't they? It's not

45:19

something that you buy from stands all the

45:20

time. But Nina, do you remember as a kid baking waffles?

45:23

Yeah, always. I mean every week we were

45:25

baking, making waffles. Sundays. Yeah.

45:28

So that was the treat. I brought a big box.

45:30

If you kids are good, we're going to make some waffles. Yeah, I gave

45:32

a waffle. Alright. Monique, thanks for

45:34

your call. Thank you. Happy eating next time

45:36

you're in Belgium. The culinary

45:38

memories and treats of Belgium are courtesy

45:41

of Belgian-born tour guides Ferdi

45:43

Mengi and Nina Derricks. Nina

45:45

and her husband Jamie have also operated

45:48

a gourmet tour company out of their home base in

45:50

Tuscany for many years. You

45:52

can find out more about our guests in each

45:55

week's show notes. That's at ricksteves.com

45:57

slash radio. a

46:00

lot of eating here in the last few minutes. I'm

46:02

turning our lights off. And

46:04

we're going to cap it off with something that is

46:06

exquisite and famous in Belgium, and

46:09

it's the chocolates. And I was really

46:11

struck by the passion for chocolate. There's

46:13

little mom and pop chocolate tears. They

46:15

pride themselves in not putting wax

46:18

on the chocolate, I guess, that helps it survive the heat. So

46:20

if it's too hot, they even close down. And

46:22

people buy their chocolate thinking it needs to

46:24

be fresh. Today's chocolate, believe

46:26

it or not,

46:27

what is it with the passion for chocolate

46:29

in Belgium, Ferdy? Well, chocolate, I mean, me

46:31

growing up as a kid and Nina as well, we know that

46:33

chocolate was something that was... You

46:35

know, we had chocolate if it was possible to get

46:37

it. It was not always there. Chocolate

46:39

was not that cheap to buy, but I remember

46:42

those cheaper chocolate bars. Remember

46:44

the one with the cow on there? It was

46:46

like a very flat, very thin, and

46:49

it cost like, you know, two cents per bar. And

46:51

it was cheap. But until

46:53

we grew up with chocolate and chocolate,

46:55

man, we have so many good chocolate cheese.

46:58

Well, now you have the line of chocolate. You

47:01

go down even right in the main square in Brussels. You've

47:03

got Leonidas, you've got Godiva,

47:06

and three or four others. And people have

47:08

their favorites. Nina, do you have a favorite chocolate

47:10

in Belgium?

47:11

Oh, my God. I love

47:13

lint chocolate, but that's Swiss. That's Swiss. Côte

47:16

d'Or. Côte d'Or is very good. Côte d'Or is one

47:18

of my favorites. Yeah, I like just very, very

47:20

dark chocolate. That's very dark.

47:21

Yeah, me too. Dark. Very

47:24

dark chocolate. If

47:26

you eat a little piece, not a kilo of it. Right.

47:29

What's the difference? You encountered the word praline

47:31

and truffle when you're looking at chocolates. Do you

47:33

know the difference?

47:35

The praline is made out of chocolate, or it's

47:37

a full chocolate, or it's a full

47:39

one.

47:40

Truffles is made actually over mousse. It's

47:42

softer. Okay. Truffle

47:44

is way softer, and it has a shape over truffle.

47:47

Is

47:47

that right? Yeah. And it's creamin. Yeah,

47:50

and it's got, it depends. It's got creamin, butter. And the

47:52

praline is a filled one. A filled one. It's a

47:54

chocolate chocolate. Yeah. Nina

47:58

and Ferdy, it's so fun just talking about eating.

47:59

because that's part of travel for anybody.

48:02

And when you have a guest in Belgium and

48:04

you want to take them up to a favorite meal, let's

48:07

just close with your what you would order for your guests

48:09

so they can really enjoy the cuisine of Belgium.

48:11

Well,

48:12

I was first asking what

48:14

they are. Not everybody likes mussels

48:17

or not everybody likes Belgian stew

48:19

or something. There are so many dishes. Don't

48:22

forget, and we haven't mentioned that Belgian

48:24

cuisine is in the top five of the world.

48:26

Is that right? We've been talking about low cuisine

48:28

mostly, every time our childhoods. But high

48:31

cuisine. Yeah, that's the high cuisine. But what's coming

48:33

back now is the low cuisine, the

48:35

ones we grew up with. There's more and more restaurants where

48:37

they serve potatoes and vegetables

48:40

with bacon or sausage, which was

48:42

a farmer's dish. Rabbit. Rabbit.

48:44

And that's coming back slowly and more and more people

48:47

looking for those things. And Belgium is a perfect

48:49

country. Can you find loser soup? Pigeon

48:52

soup, yes. Pigeon soup, yeah. Absolutely. We

48:54

love pigeons. Pigeon stew, absolutely. They're

48:56

back to losers. So it depends

48:58

on the palate of the guests you have. And

49:01

we haven't even talked about it, but the beer is part

49:03

of the cuisine. If you go to a fine

49:05

wine shop in Paris, you've got French

49:07

wine, but the beer will be Belgian.

49:09

Europeans all think of Belgian beers. We cook with

49:11

beer, yeah. They cook with beer. Absolutely.

49:13

And more and more people are drinking beer with

49:16

their fancy dinners or meals

49:19

rather than wine. That's just kicked in, hasn't

49:21

it? That's just kicked in the last couple of years. And

49:24

beer with cheese combined

49:26

up. I need a beer with chocolate. It's a really good

49:28

combination. It depends on what beer you're drinking. But

49:30

it's a good thing. So in the old days, beer was kind

49:32

of considered food almost. And now

49:34

beer is there. Yes, it was

49:35

known as pan liquid,

49:37

liquid bread. Liquid bread. Yes.

49:39

And today it has become more refined

49:42

and it's part of the whole gastronomy.

49:44

But

49:44

it's still classified as food, which

49:47

is interesting. So therefore

49:49

you can drink it when you're 16,

49:51

whereas booze, wait till you're 18.

49:53

Was that right? Yes. So you have to be older

49:55

to have a cocktail. Yes. But beer

49:58

goes in a different category.

49:59

said before when our grandfather or

50:02

our father said, well, one beer is worth

50:04

two sandwiches. Yeah.

50:05

The same value. You

50:08

know, the same, same nutritional. Liquid

50:10

bread. Sounds like a fun grandpa.

50:12

So you can drink a lot of bread.

50:15

All right. Hey, this is Travel with Rick Steves. We've been celebrating

50:17

Belgian cuisine here with two wonderful

50:19

guides, Ferdinand Domenchi and Nina Derricks.

50:22

Ferdie and Nina, thanks so much. And I'm

50:24

heading back to Belgium to sample some of

50:26

this edible culture. Call me if

50:28

you dare. All right. Bye bye for now.

50:31

Bye bye. Travel

50:36

with Rick Steves is produced by Tim Tappan, Kath

50:38

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50:40

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50:51

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50:53

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50:55

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