0:01

A deep-sea diving instructor from Australia wants

0:03

to quell your fear of sharks. Coming

0:06

up, he explains that most shark species

0:08

don't really want to eat you. The

0:10

amount of times people actually have a

0:12

close encounter with a shark without even

0:14

realizing they had a close encounter with

0:16

a shark is a lot higher than

0:18

we ever thought before. If you're

0:20

reluctant to visit Cuba because of the

0:22

tense history between their government and the

0:24

U.S., Chris Baker suggests you're missing out

0:26

on making new friends. There's a

0:28

few places in the world where

0:30

you can walk down the street or

0:33

meet somebody and you are invited into

0:35

their house. Chris helps us explore beyond

0:37

the urban core of Havana in just

0:39

a bit. And to see

0:41

what everyday Roman Empire life was like, plan

0:43

to visit Pompeii in southern Italy. It's

0:45

not just a pile of rubble, and you really get

0:47

a chance to see how they constructed their buildings, how

0:49

they laid out their street patterns, and how much of

0:52

our civilization is based on Roman civilization.

0:54

It's all in the hour ahead on

0:56

Travel with Rick Steves. Our

0:58

favorite expert on travel

1:00

to Cuba helps us explore the island beyond Havana

1:02

in just a bit. And we'll get tips for

1:05

time traveling to the 1st century A.D. to

1:08

see how the once vibrant port city of Pompeii was

1:11

frozen in time by Mount Vesuvius. But

1:16

let's start today's travel with Rick Steves under

1:18

the sea. For some reason,

1:20

we've been wired to be terrified by

1:22

sharks, but scuba divers actually seek out

1:25

sharks to swim with. They find sharks are

1:27

not dangerous at all. In fact, they find

1:29

sharks have a kind of submarine charisma. Chris

1:33

Taylor is an experienced diver with

1:35

more than a thousand dives under his weight belt. He's

1:38

worked in the dive industry throughout

1:40

Australia and has a particular love for sharks. He's

1:43

the co-author of the National Geographic book A Diver's Guide

1:45

to the World, remarkable dive

1:47

travel destinations above and beneath the

1:49

surface. And he's on the line with

1:51

us today to share his love of diving. Chris,

1:55

thanks for joining us. Thank

1:57

you so much for having me. me,

2:00

I'm very excited to be here. So I

2:02

was really, it caught my attention

2:04

when I read that you not only love

2:06

diving with sharks, you claimed they

2:08

have charisma. What is the charisma?

2:12

It's very similar to if you've got a

2:14

pet dog, say you've got a black Labrador and

2:16

it's out in a field with a lot of

2:18

other black Labradors, you can tell your black

2:20

Labrador from all the other ones just on

2:22

the way that your dog behaves and the

2:24

charisma that your dog has and

2:26

it's very much the same with sharks.

2:29

So if you spend a lot

2:31

of time with the same individual sharks,

2:33

you will notice that they do have

2:35

different personalities and slightly different

2:38

behavioral traits. Well that, so

2:40

you actually, they live in a neighborhood and if

2:42

you dive there repeatedly you realize this is the

2:44

same gang of sharks. Yeah, that can certainly be

2:46

the case. It depends on the species of sharks.

2:48

So there's well over 500 species

2:50

of shark in the world. So

2:53

there are certain sharks that are resident

2:55

on particular reefs and that's their

2:57

home. Other sharks are very

2:59

migratory like great white sharks. They're not

3:02

always resident. Before we get

3:04

any deeper, there's also things I want to ask

3:06

you about sharks but I know that some people

3:08

are just going to tune out because they're just

3:10

thinking, no way, it's too dangerous. Why would I

3:12

risk my limbs being ripped off? I've seen those

3:15

photographs. So let's just talk about

3:17

the fear of sharks. Why

3:19

are people so terrified of sharks if they're not dangerous?

3:22

I wouldn't go as far as

3:24

to say they're not dangerous but

3:27

they're also not this omnipresent monster

3:30

that we need to be fearful of every

3:32

time we enter the ocean. So if sharks

3:34

were out there looking to

3:36

hunt humans and if they decided humans

3:39

are their favorite food then no human

3:41

could go into the ocean ever again.

3:44

That would be over. So we

3:46

are exceptionally easy for them to

3:48

catch if they so wished to

3:50

do that but time

3:53

and time again and especially now

3:55

with drone footage that's everywhere nowadays,

3:58

we can see lots lots of

4:00

footage now of sharks swimming around

4:03

amongst swimmers and surfers absolutely

4:05

not interested by those people in the

4:07

water at all. So I think the

4:09

amount of times people actually have a

4:11

close encounter with a shark without even

4:13

realizing they had a close encounter with

4:15

a shark is a lot higher than

4:17

we ever thought before. And you

4:19

wrote that you've had literally hundreds of

4:21

meetings and never a negative experience with

4:23

a shark. Exactly. All

4:26

my experiences with sharks have been

4:28

very relaxed and calm. That

4:30

being said, I have more experience

4:32

with great white sharks than with any other

4:35

shark and in order to spend

4:37

time in the water safely with a great

4:39

white shark you do need to be in

4:41

a cage. That's the dangerous one, the

4:44

great white shark is dangerous, more dangerous

4:46

than others. Yeah the great white shark

4:48

is the one responsible for the most

4:50

attacks and also the most deaths by

4:53

sharks by far. But just to put

4:55

things into perspective, I read 10 people

4:58

a year on average are killed by

5:00

sharks on this whole planet. That's right.

5:03

And one death in the United States

5:05

every two years and when

5:07

you put that up against anything

5:09

else, dogs, bees

5:12

falling off of ladders, getting electrocuted

5:14

by a toaster, all those

5:17

things are more dangerous than sharks. Exactly.

5:19

I live in Australia obviously and we

5:22

have the most deaths per year on average

5:24

of any country in the world by sharks

5:26

and that's at about five roughly every year.

5:28

And it is very unfortunate and is very

5:30

sad but there's a lot of factors that

5:33

seem to be common amongst most shark attacks.

5:35

Things like people in the water in the

5:37

early morning or the late afternoon when

5:39

the light is very low. So sharks

5:42

do rely heavily on their eyesight. So

5:44

we're swimming along on the surface and they

5:47

probably don't understand what we are. I'm pretty

5:49

sure they don't think we are a seal.

5:51

I think that's a bit of a

5:53

myth but they don't necessarily know what we are and

5:55

so what they'll do is they'll come up and have

5:57

a look at what we are unfortunately for a shark.

6:00

not having hands, that involves

6:02

the shark taking a little bite to see, just

6:04

to find out what it is. So there

6:06

must be some particular joy to even take

6:08

that small risk. Tell us the

6:11

majesty of being with a shark deep

6:13

underwater. What are some of the highlights,

6:16

the peacefulness, the inspiration

6:18

of it? When

6:20

you're diving and when a shark comes

6:22

in and starts to eyeball you, you

6:24

can see this deep connection that you're

6:27

having between one animal and another, us

6:29

being animals. You can tell

6:31

that the shark is having a good look at

6:33

you and is just very very interested in what

6:35

we are and what we're doing in the ocean.

6:39

And they'll often come in very very slowly, they'll

6:41

come in, have a little look, then swim away

6:44

and come back again. And it's just such

6:46

a graceful animal as it just glides through

6:48

the water effortlessly and you can just swim

6:50

through the water with it and share the space. Brilliant.

6:54

This is Travel with Rick Steves, we're joined

6:57

by Chris Taylor. He's sharing his love, not

6:59

only at scuba diving, but doing it with

7:01

sharks. He's the co-author of

7:03

the National Geographic book, A Diver's

7:05

Guide to the World. Remarkable dive,

7:07

travel destinations above and beneath the

7:09

surface. So Chris,

7:11

a lot of times I can imagine

7:14

you're enjoying almost an urban community, a

7:17

society of fish

7:19

and different sea life around a

7:21

reef. And then a shark

7:24

is part of that world, also it comes gliding through.

7:27

What's that like? So

7:29

you can see the whole reef react

7:31

to it and there's been some incredible

7:33

studies as well where they made

7:35

a fake shark and towed it across

7:37

the top of a reef just to

7:40

let the shadow of the shark follow

7:42

the reef. And all

7:44

of the little fish obviously are afraid of

7:46

the shark because the shark's the predator. So

7:49

the fish then go and hide and

7:51

that actually increased the health

7:53

of the reef by quite a lot because without

7:56

the sharks there, the other fish stay out and

7:58

forage on the reef a lot more. more and

8:00

so they end up degrading the reef because they eat

8:02

too much of it and break too much of it

8:05

if they're not away hiding away from the

8:07

shark. So all of these interactions are very

8:09

very important and very interesting to see. So

8:12

if you go to a nice reef in

8:14

the Caribbean and it's a good healthy reef

8:16

you're likely to see some species of shark

8:18

just swimming along the reef naturally and that's

8:21

the ideal way to see a shark. But

8:23

unfortunately shark populations have declined so much in

8:25

the last few years, in the last couple

8:28

of decades, that it's getting

8:30

increasingly hard to just accidentally come across

8:32

a shark when you go diving. So

8:35

a lot of the times if you do want

8:37

to see sharks you do have to bait for

8:40

them and put some sort of food incentive in

8:42

that attracts the sharks in and that's especially the

8:44

case when you're dealing with great white sharks. It's

8:46

not really possible to see great white sharks without

8:48

doing that. You mentioned sharks

8:51

are diminishing in population and you

8:53

wrote that their population is 70%

8:56

down and we should see

8:58

them not as dangerous but endangered. And

9:01

there's a case where they even found a Chinese boat

9:03

that had 6,000 sharks on the boat

9:06

taken because shark fin soup is so

9:09

popular in Asia. What's the

9:11

status now of the well-being

9:13

of the shark population in our world?

9:17

Unfortunately the status is not looking much

9:19

better. Luckily very recently

9:21

a few different shark species have

9:23

been added to different international protection

9:26

treaties which is a good thing that

9:28

they've been added but it's very sad that they needed to

9:30

be added. So yeah lots

9:32

of shark populations especially the big

9:34

migratory shark populations are in massive

9:36

decline because any

9:39

regional protections that they might

9:41

have don't exist everywhere and

9:43

so yes they will get fished up by big

9:45

shark fishing fleets. Now as you

9:47

pointed out shark fin soup is a major driver

9:50

of that but it's not the only driver. A

9:52

lot of countries still allow shark fishing including Australia

9:54

where I live and in any

9:56

supermarket you can buy shark meat. So

9:59

it's not just all the Chinese for their soup,

10:02

but obviously that does create a massive

10:04

demand for sharks. Chris

10:06

Taylor is joining us from his home at

10:08

Byron Bay, Australia on Travel with Rick Spies.

10:11

He works in the scuba diving

10:13

industry throughout Australia and recommends his

10:15

favourite diving locations in A Diver's

10:17

Guide to the World. It's published

10:19

by National Geographic. Chris, we

10:22

just have a minute or so left, but I'd love to

10:24

review, you wrote about the Bahamas

10:26

as being a great place for sharks. Let's

10:28

just talk about enjoying a little shark tourism

10:30

in the Bahamas, for example. What would

10:32

there be in the Bahamas? Why? You

10:34

mentioned it has a very healthy shark

10:37

population because of proactive humans

10:39

who care. It's good for the local

10:41

economy, generating lots of money for their

10:43

tourism. What is

10:46

there for shark tourism? It's

10:48

mainly driven by one major operator

10:51

who's on Nassau. It's a nice

10:53

shallow dive, and they're feeding

10:55

the Caribbean reef sharks. The tourists sit

10:57

in a big circle on the bottom,

11:00

and meanwhile they're feeding the sharks in the middle of

11:03

that big circle. You get up close and personal with

11:05

it. There are a lot

11:07

of people who learn to dive specifically

11:09

to go and do this one specific

11:11

dive in the Bahamas. For me, even

11:15

though they are feeding the sharks, and there

11:17

is a bit of controversy on do we

11:19

want to be changing their natural behaviour, on

11:22

the flip side, you've also got this

11:24

education that they're doing because they are

11:26

showing sharks to a lot more people.

11:28

The more people that can see sharks

11:31

and go into the ocean and see

11:33

what's down there will have a very

11:35

different appreciation for it and then do

11:38

end up wanting to help protect it. It's

11:41

a question of how do you balance

11:43

the effect that we're having against the

11:46

good publicity that it's creating. You

11:48

have to also remember that in cities

11:51

like in California and Laguna Beach, with

11:53

all your normal city things going on,

11:55

all you need to do is walk

11:57

into the ocean with some scuba and

12:00

only a hundred yards from shore, you've

12:02

got little sharks swimming around and you've

12:04

got this amazing marine life that you

12:06

can go and visit. So

12:09

if you live along the coastline anywhere,

12:11

even in a big city, you're only

12:13

a hundred yards away from the wild

12:15

natural world. People

12:17

don't recognize that, but in the most

12:19

urban congested environment, you put

12:21

on some scuba gear and paddle out there

12:23

for a hundred yards and go a few

12:25

yards underwater and it's a whole, whole different

12:28

world. Exactly. It's a whole

12:30

different world. It's the same world. Exactly.

12:33

And that's exactly what we're trying to do, is get more people

12:35

in to see it. There

12:37

you go. Well, Chris Taylor, thank you

12:39

so much for joining us and best wishes

12:42

with your work and your book. The book

12:44

is A Diver's Guide to the World, Remarkable

12:46

Dive Travel Destinations Above and Beneath the Surface.

12:49

And Chris, thanks in particular for

12:51

raising awareness that sharks are not

12:53

dangerous, but they are endangered and

12:55

they're an important part of the

12:57

environmental mix that makes our world

13:00

such a beautiful yet fragile place.

13:03

Thank you so much for having me. Chris

13:07

Taylor and his wife, Kerry Miller, recommend

13:09

prime deep sea diving sites in 35

13:11

countries in their book,

13:13

A Diver's Guide to the World. They

13:15

also post photos from under

13:18

the sea on their website,

13:20

beneaththesurface.media, and on Instagram. We'll

13:22

encounter first century life at Pompeii in just

13:24

a bit, but first, let's work our way

13:27

across the island of Cuba on Travel with

13:29

Rick Steves. Cuba

13:32

has long been a fascination for its neighbors

13:34

here in the United States. 90

13:36

miles across the Strait of Florida, we

13:39

still tend to look at Cuba as

13:41

a romanticized time warp, thanks to the

13:43

classic cars and its colonial architecture. As

13:46

a leading authority on American travel to Cuba,

13:48

Christopher P. Baker joins us now on Travel

13:50

with Rick Steves to encourage us to get

13:52

a broader view of Cuba, to venture beyond

13:54

the dominant city, the capital of Havana. Chris,

13:56

thanks for joining us. It's good to have

13:58

you back. Rick, it's a

14:01

pleasure to be with you again. So

14:03

you're the man when it comes to

14:05

Americans visiting Cuba. You're writing the National

14:07

Geographic guidebook to Cuba, you lead motorcycle

14:09

tours around the island, and you've been

14:11

tracking the delicate dance between the American

14:13

and Cuban governments now for decades. It's

14:16

been a few years since you last joined

14:18

us. Can you just get us up to

14:20

date on your recent travels in Cuba and

14:22

what's new for travelers there? Sure.

14:24

Well, Cuba is still the destination that I

14:26

love more than anywhere else and where I

14:28

go to more than anywhere else. So this

14:30

last year I was there January

14:33

through almost all of

14:35

April, leading mostly photo tours.

14:37

So that's where I'm from right now.

14:39

I'm kind of focused through the lens,

14:41

as it were, as I take people

14:44

around Cuba. And what about the

14:47

ongoing complexities of Americans actually getting in?

14:49

Is it relatively open now and easy

14:51

for Americans to travel in Cuba, whether

14:53

they're joining a tour or going on

14:55

their own? Well, restrictions are still

14:57

in place, but most Americans

14:59

don't realize that they can literally just

15:01

make an airline reservation tomorrow and fly

15:03

in tomorrow pre-approved by the

15:05

US government under a license category for

15:08

legal travel called support for the Cuban

15:10

people. The visa sounds like it's just

15:12

a routine or just a simple hurdle

15:14

you go through. You just fill out

15:16

a form and they ask you why

15:18

you're going there and you say for

15:21

the good of the Cuban people. Not

15:23

even that difficult, Rick. There is no

15:25

written form. It's pre-approved and it's on

15:28

a system that, if you believe you're

15:30

going to be supporting the Cuban people,

15:32

which means staying at B&Bs and eating

15:34

at private restaurants, et cetera, which any

15:36

wise person would do these days, then

15:38

you're legal and off you go and

15:40

that's what you do. Who flies to

15:42

Cuba from the United States and what

15:44

are the gateway cities? Well, most of

15:46

the major airlines. So United, JetBlue, Southwest,

15:49

but the big boy in town is

15:51

American Airlines. They have six flights a

15:53

day out of Miami. And

15:56

that's just to Havana and they fly

15:58

to many other cities also. When

16:00

I talk to people about their Cuban experiences, it's

16:02

always about the people. And in

16:04

your books, you seem to have an enduring respect

16:06

and regard for the Cuban people. It's an admiration

16:08

that a lot of people wouldn't understand if they

16:11

just were basing their judgment on

16:13

what they hear in the news here. What

16:15

is it about the Cubans that you meet? Yeah,

16:17

it's all about the Cuban people. I mean, there

16:20

are so many qualities that I just love that

16:23

some of them appear unique to them. Not

16:25

least is their openness. My God, there's a

16:27

few places in the world where you

16:30

can walk down the street or

16:32

just meet somebody and you are invited

16:34

into their house. And

16:36

there's genuine love and affection.

16:38

And there's no animosity towards

16:40

Americans based on US policy

16:42

going back seven decades of US embargoes

16:45

still in place. That really doesn't factor

16:47

into how they judge you. If

16:49

any society had grounds to have a chip

16:51

on their shoulder about meeting an American, I

16:53

think it would be somebody who's living with

16:55

the consequences of our embargo. But as an

16:57

individual American down there, I did not feel

17:00

a bit of that edge. No,

17:02

in fact, it's quite the opposite. They seem to love

17:04

you because you're American. And there are all

17:06

these affinities in common from baseball to

17:08

old American cars that they can

17:11

chat about. But they are amongst

17:13

the most vivacious, culturally

17:15

advanced people I've ever come across

17:17

also. What I'd like to

17:20

talk about, Chris, is of course, Havana is

17:22

great. But seeing Havana and then using it

17:24

as a springboard to get out into the

17:26

country, first of all, there's

17:28

a lot of – it just seems like

17:30

all through Latin America, the colonial capital is

17:32

a big deal. I mean, in Cuba it's

17:34

Trinidad, right? Well, Trinidad

17:36

is the quintessential colonial city. It's

17:39

one of seven UNESCO World Heritage

17:41

cities in Cuba because of the

17:43

way that it has managed

17:46

to retain more or

17:48

less colonial integrity, if you will. It's

17:51

a time warp city on a hill. It's

17:53

beautiful, absolutely beautiful, dating back from – well,

17:55

it was founded in the 16th century. But

17:57

the housing that you will see in the

17:59

center – of Trinidad is

18:02

18th century for the most part. Wow, that is

18:04

gorgeous. I remember it's like a two-story

18:06

town, isn't it? It all goes back to the

18:09

day long before elevators. Absolutely.

18:12

And it was once the wealthy

18:14

based on sugarcane industry and when

18:16

it was replaced,

18:18

or rather the sugarcane industry bypassed

18:21

it because there was no road

18:23

connection to Trinidad and the rest

18:25

of Cuba evolved as a sugarcane

18:27

growing area and Trinidad was left

18:29

behind because it was antiquated and

18:32

it was pickled in Aspic in a sense. One

18:35

thing is the opposite of Trinidad and

18:37

the colonial charm is Veradero. Is

18:40

that how you pronounce that? Veradero, yes.

18:43

It's not off limits to Americans, but

18:45

in one sense it is because Veradero

18:47

is 12 kilometer long

18:50

white sand beach and it's lined with

18:52

hotels, most of them all inclusive hotels.

18:55

But under US law there is

18:58

a restriction. You cannot, you may

19:00

not legally spend time just lazing

19:02

on a beach and these days

19:04

nor may you stay in any

19:06

hotel in Cuba because all the

19:08

hotels, especially the all inclusives, are

19:10

actually owned by the Cuban government.

19:12

Oh, that's the strength hat. Since

19:14

Trump that is banned. That

19:17

is why it's a nice thing our government

19:19

is letting us go there, but the

19:21

string attached is we can't patronize

19:23

businesses owned by the Cuban government.

19:25

I was going to think, Veradero is

19:27

sort of like the Cancun of

19:30

Cuba. It's an artificial Cuba. It's

19:32

miles of resorts on the beach.

19:34

It's probably filled with tour groups

19:36

from Europe and Canada and

19:38

all inclusive kind of resorts. You

19:41

devoted 20 pages of it in your

19:44

guidebook and I thought what a miserable

19:46

experience after recent 20 pages of resort

19:48

hotels. Oh, gosh, the research for the

19:50

moon guidebook was something else. But you

19:52

may be surprised Rick, these days you

19:54

go to the main resort areas and

19:56

what do you find there? They're mostly

19:59

Cuban families still. saying that Cubans, there

20:01

are so many Cubans who have gained

20:04

access to foreign currency and

20:06

of course they get special deals

20:08

in Cuba these days from the

20:11

Cuban state. They're vacationing

20:13

there. Well, I think quote communist

20:15

governments all over the world are

20:17

having to live with kind

20:19

of a sham that yes, they're communist in

20:21

their ideals or whatever, but the reality is

20:24

you got to have capitalism to play ball

20:26

and it's working that way.

20:28

In Cuba there's actually two parallel

20:30

currencies, right? There was. Two

20:33

years ago they did away with one of them. So

20:35

there's one currency now. It's the

20:37

Cuban peso and that tourist money that

20:40

you were familiar with when you went

20:42

no longer exists. It's

20:45

had profound economic consequences because

20:47

the distinction in value between

20:49

them was so great

20:51

that there's been huge inflation

20:54

as they've adopted the lower valued Cuban peso

20:58

and there's a great fluctuation of

21:01

exchange rates determined by the black

21:03

market. I just

21:05

was very frustrated by that because in

21:08

practice the tourist would use the

21:10

tourist currency but I always felt

21:12

that that was just giving up to the double

21:14

sort of standard of there's the tourist world and

21:16

the real world but now everybody's at least got

21:18

the real world currency. Yeah, just

21:20

one currency. Christopher P. Baker's,

21:22

our guide to Cuba. The odd Havana right

21:25

now on travel with Rick Steves. Growing

21:27

up in England, Chris got a master's in Latin

21:30

American studies and he's been exploring Cuba for the

21:32

past 30 years. He

21:34

writes the National Geographic Traveler's Guidebook

21:36

to Cuba as well as other

21:38

titles on Costa Rica, Colombia, Panama,

21:41

the Dominican Republic, Japan and Scotland.

21:43

Chris also recommends day trip destinations

21:45

in his book Perfect Day, California.

21:48

Chris is joining us from his home in Southern

21:50

California. What's an

21:52

example of, I mean you can look at

21:55

museums and you can look at fancy buildings

21:57

that have some history. What's a

21:59

short list of examples? experiences that you would

22:01

recommend for somebody that wants to have a more

22:03

vivid time with the culture. I mean, for

22:05

instance, you could go to a rodeo, you

22:07

could go to a baseball game. What

22:10

are some things? I think one of

22:12

the things that stands out is you'd head

22:14

to tobacco country. So you'd head west of

22:16

Havana to Pina del Rio,

22:18

especially to Vignonles Valley, and

22:21

you'd head up into the individual

22:23

farms and you'd learn Tobacco

22:25

101 from a farmer who'll

22:27

roll a cigar from freshly harvested leaves

22:29

right in front of you and hand

22:31

it over to you and you'd smoke

22:33

together with a farmer. I

22:36

love that. I did that. I think right

22:38

in the valley you're talking about. And a

22:40

lot of times when I'm traveling, I'm a TV producer,

22:43

and I'm always thinking, what could make good TV? And

22:46

I looked at those weathered hands and

22:48

the weathered tobacco leaves together. Oh, what

22:50

in the sun, sure. And it was

22:53

under that thatched canopy and

22:55

it was so organic

22:57

and it was so filled with

22:59

heritage and love and passion. And

23:01

to see that beautiful man rolling

23:03

that beautiful cigar, knowing, I don't

23:05

even know what's a good cigar

23:08

or a bad cigar, but knowing how many people would kill for

23:10

that cigar, and then to see

23:12

him tie it together with 19 other cigars into

23:14

a little bundle, I just thought,

23:16

what a vivid, beautiful experience. And it was

23:18

sort of just magical to be at that

23:21

rustic table watching it happen. Yeah,

23:23

absolutely. So that would be something

23:25

to put on your list. I

23:28

think you can connect with a community

23:30

by going to the baseball diamond. Yeah.

23:33

We were just talking about Vignalis

23:35

Valley, just a small village,

23:37

but like everywhere in Cuba, it's got a

23:39

baseball field. And Cubans are passionate about baseball

23:42

and getting in there and even being invited

23:44

out on to swing at

23:46

bat at the ball is always a possibility. It's

23:48

a lot of fun to watch them because they

23:50

play with so much passion. That's

23:53

one of the adjectives I'd use about

23:55

Cubans is they are full of passion,

23:57

be it music, be it dance. Be

24:00

it baseball. This is Travel with Rick Steves

24:02

and we're exploring Cuba with Christopher P. Baker.

24:05

Chris writes the National Geographic Traveler Guidebook

24:07

to Cuba. He leads photography and motorcycle

24:10

tours around the island and you'll find

24:12

links to his work with this week's

24:14

show at ricksteves.com/radio. Christopher,

24:16

I think a lot of Americans, they know Havana

24:19

and they probably know Vignales

24:21

and they probably know Trinidad. But

24:24

what else, especially on the east end of the

24:26

island, would you recommend? What are some other places

24:28

that we should be mindful of as we cobble

24:31

together an itinerary? Cuba is

24:33

as far east to west as California

24:35

is north to south, so there's tremendous

24:37

diversity. In the east you

24:40

have Barricoa, the oldest city in Cuba,

24:42

founded in the very start of the

24:44

16th century and it is surrounded by

24:46

rainforest. cacao is grown

24:48

there. It has its own

24:51

indigenous cuisine based on the

24:53

early pre-Columbian Taino culture. Santiago

24:56

de Cuba nearby and Guantanamo,

24:59

Santiago by the way, is

25:01

the hotbed of the revolution.

25:04

It's where the revolution succeeded

25:06

and very Afro-Cuban. The

25:08

majority of the population is African, so very,

25:10

very distinct from Havana in the west. Now

25:13

when you come into a town that is a rustic

25:16

town, not a wealthy town, a town

25:18

that has very little tourism, what

25:21

does the American traveler do? I

25:24

mean, is there one hotel

25:26

that's used to western travelers? Would that serve

25:28

as sort of your tourist information office because

25:30

they certainly wouldn't be one in the town?

25:33

Where would you eat? What are the challenges

25:35

you would have from a communicating point of view and

25:38

connecting with that town? Well,

25:40

for sure these places are

25:42

less cosmopolitan by many degrees

25:44

from Havana, of course, but

25:47

you'd be surprised that everywhere you go in Cuba

25:49

these days, there are private BMPs,

25:52

always very clean, private restaurants.

25:54

There may not be sushi as

25:56

you could get in Havana, but

25:58

you will see. certainly going to

26:00

eat well. I lead a

26:02

photo tour every year to Eastern

26:05

Cuba, the three places I mentioned,

26:07

Baracoa, Santiago and Guantanamo. In all

26:09

of these places, we're staying at

26:11

very nice B&Bs, eating

26:13

at the best paladars around and taking

26:15

you out to cultural sites such

26:17

as one near Baracoa

26:20

where the population is very

26:22

clearly, facially, descendants from the

26:24

Taino population and you're going

26:26

to have a classic Taino

26:28

indigenous style meal out in the

26:30

outdoors. Tell me more about that. What are

26:32

the indigenous people? The Taino, that

26:35

was the cultural group

26:37

throughout the greater Antilles

26:40

when Columbus arrived and

26:42

decimated by the Spanish conquistadors, no surprise.

26:45

But some of them in Cuba got

26:47

up into the mountains and survived. Just

26:49

one look at their faces and you

26:51

can tell their heritage. Wow. So there's

26:54

many different dimensions on that island and

26:56

of course, people are going to go

26:58

to the Caribbean dreaming about a lovely

27:00

day on the beach. When

27:03

you're doing your tours, what's

27:05

your favorite tip for enjoying that

27:07

kind of a luxurious hedonistic day?

27:10

Well, I have to be very conscious

27:12

that US law does not permit it.

27:14

Ooh, that's right. And so US law

27:17

states literally that kind of nine to

27:19

five, you have to follow and I

27:21

quote a full time

27:23

schedule of activities that

27:25

are in line with whatever

27:28

license category that you're

27:30

traveling under. And in most people's case, it

27:32

will be what's called support for the Cuban

27:34

people. I guess one way you

27:37

could help out a local, the

27:39

local people and be in a

27:41

good stead with your visa would be to

27:43

hire a local guide. What would you say

27:45

the average worker earns in Cuba

27:47

out in the fields in a day? Yeah.

27:50

Well, this is a tough call because so

27:52

many Cubans have access to either income

27:55

that's coming from the tourist sector or

27:57

from family remittances. But in terms of

27:59

salary, these days the Cuban

28:02

state salary we

28:22

have maybe an educational debt. Okay.

28:24

None of these factor into the

28:26

Cuban reality, nobody pays a mortgage.

28:28

Wow. Right? Nobody has a debt

28:30

on a house. Nobody's paying insurance,

28:33

etc. So the living costs are

28:35

exponentially lower than they are for

28:37

us. So $50. It's like pocket

28:39

money to have three bucks a

28:41

day because your food, your education,

28:43

your medicine, your housing is covered.

28:46

Right. So but nonetheless, and Cuba's definitely need

28:48

more than the state salary to get more

28:51

than the basics to exist in a

28:53

month. And so a lot of people

28:55

are making money from remittances or

28:58

from some aspect of the tourist trade or

29:00

from money that is passed down through the

29:02

tourist trade as capitalistic tourist

29:04

trade multiplies its effect by

29:07

feeding the opening of new B&Bs,

29:09

higher locals,

29:11

etc. Okay. My big

29:13

passion is hiring a

29:15

local guide. They don't need to be

29:17

a great guide. They just need to be friendly

29:19

and honest and speak English and

29:22

have that sidekick, that friend,

29:24

that negotiator, that whatever on

29:27

my team. And it's always

29:29

awkward when you think, okay, people make $50 a month.

29:31

I'm gonna be paying him

29:34

a lot more than that in a day. But

29:36

I don't want to be stingy. You're an insider.

29:38

You know how the business works. You've got friends in Cuba.

29:41

If you can find a local guide,

29:43

what would be a very good daily

29:45

payment for him that would be realistic

29:47

for you. This is fairly easy because

29:50

I have a higher Cuban guides than

29:52

all my tourists. So $100 a day

29:54

would be typical. You

29:57

may be surprised at some of the money I throw. I

30:00

have a photo tour called Central

30:02

Havana. It's glamour essentially, fine

30:04

art nude. But the models that we're

30:07

using there will get up to $300 for a half day. I

30:11

have my Cuban photo assistant. She

30:13

I pay more than $100, $150. So

30:17

there's two tiers in the economy

30:19

but in a nutshell, if

30:21

you're a traveler and if you can find

30:23

a reputable local guide for $100 a day,

30:26

you're not getting ripped off. That's a

30:28

fair payment. No, absolutely. And that's probably

30:30

an industry standard right now in Cuba. And

30:32

by the way, your photos are beautiful. I

30:34

enjoyed looking at them at christopherpbaker.com. Let's

30:37

just wrap up our conversation here by a tip

30:40

from you. Is there a phrase or two that

30:42

we should know as we travel

30:44

around Cuba that can endear

30:46

us to the locals? One

30:49

tip that would certainly raise eyebrows and

30:51

go, wow, this guy knows Cuba. You

30:53

meet some Cuban, you say, ¿Qué bola?

30:56

How's things going? ¿Qué bola? ¿Qué

30:59

bola? ¿Qué bola? ¿Qué bola? ¿Qué

31:02

bola? ¿Qué bola? ¿Qué bola? All

31:05

right. Well, thank you very much. And how can I say happy

31:07

travels? Feliz Viaje. Feliz Viaje.

31:09

All right, Christopher. Thanks and best wishes.

31:12

My question. This big has been

31:24

tours of Cuba-Cecián and among his photographic

31:26

photos. Among his

31:28

photographic books is Mimoto Fido,

31:31

motorcycling through Castro's Cuba. His

31:34

website is christopherpbaker.com. An

31:37

amazing level of detail has been unearthed

31:39

in and around Pompeii at the base

31:41

of Italy's notorious Mount Vesuvius. It's

31:44

where you can compare Roman society from 2,000 years

31:46

ago and how we live today. Up

31:49

next, Nina Bernardo takes your calls

31:51

with advice for seeing the Roman

31:53

world in almost living color at

31:55

Pompeii. Or at 877-333-7425. As

32:01

you listen from week to week to travel

32:03

with Rick Steves, I hope we've stoked your

32:05

appetite for encountering the past in some of

32:07

the places we like to visit. Many

32:10

of the best-preserved remains of the Roman

32:12

Empire are found at Pompeii on the

32:15

flank of Mount Vesuvius near Naples. It's

32:18

where American-born tour guide Nina Bernardo

32:20

is taking us to better understand

32:22

what disappeared under the eruption of

32:24

Mount Vesuvius on August 24, 1979.

32:28

Nina, thanks for joining us. Glad to be

32:30

here. So what is special about

32:32

Pompeii? I mean, people travel three hours on

32:34

the train south from Rome on a grueling

32:36

day trip just to see Pompeii. But

32:38

I think Pompeii is the only place where

32:41

you can really understand the Romans, how systematic

32:43

they were, what a pragmatic people they were,

32:45

and what it was like for daily life

32:48

for a Roman citizen. You really can resurrect

32:50

that sort of intimate kind of here

32:52

I am in the market. Oh, absolutely. It's not

32:54

just a pile of rubble. Absolutely. It's not just

32:56

a pile of rubble. And you really get a

32:58

chance to see how they constructed their buildings, how

33:00

they laid out their street patterns, and how much

33:02

of that is really very modern. You

33:04

can make a lot of connections between the ancients and what

33:06

we do today, and how much of our

33:09

civilization is based on Roman civilization. You can

33:11

even see towers that used to hold water tanks. Oh,

33:13

yeah, absolutely. And be fed by aqueducts and then be piped

33:16

with the help of gravity throughout the whole town. Right.

33:18

They had a very extensive elaborate system for distribution

33:20

of water to everyone. You really gained an appreciation

33:22

for Roman engineering when you get to walk through

33:24

Pompeii. Yeah, you really do. That

33:27

happened exactly on August 24th, 79 AD. Well,

33:31

the fact that it happened on August 24th, I always find

33:33

ironic. It was the day after the annual festival

33:35

dedicated to the god Vulcan, who was the god

33:37

of the forge. There were certainly

33:39

some signs ahead of time that warned that

33:42

Vesuvius was going to erupt, but

33:44

only very few people would have understood what

33:46

those signs were. So basically, all of a

33:48

sudden, a plume of smoke

33:50

came up, and it eventually over hours

33:52

and hours shot up something like

33:55

20 kilometers into the sky. And it took several

33:57

hours for that to happen. And then all of

33:59

a sudden, this ash cloud held

34:01

with pumice and stone came down and

34:03

just buried the city. I

34:06

mean really buried the city people were stopped

34:08

literally in their tracks. Yeah exactly. Today we

34:10

can even see these casts. You can see

34:12

the plaster casts. The archaeologists are amazing when

34:14

they were digging down excavating in there. What

34:16

they found is that the bodies that were

34:18

buried the skeletons remained but they had left

34:20

an outline of where the body was and

34:22

so they injected liquid plaster into there. So

34:24

you have the outline of the body but

34:26

the actual bones are still inside in the

34:28

position they were when they died. So you can

34:30

see some of the expressions on their faces. Very

34:32

dramatic. It is extremely dramatic. Nina take

34:34

me on just a walk down the

34:36

street in Pompeii and as a tour

34:38

guide tell me what I would see and

34:40

then how by looking at that and knowing what it meant

34:43

I could sort of get a sense of what life was

34:45

like two thousand years ago. The

34:47

first big space that you're going to encounter

34:49

is the forum and you'll notice that it

34:51

says pedestrian only. You'll notice that

34:53

most of the important administrative public buildings

34:56

and temples are around the forum.

34:58

You'll see it really was the heart of

35:00

the city, the gathering place, the social, the

35:02

political, the economic center of the city. When

35:04

you understand that Pompeii was a commercial town

35:06

you'll know that travelers were coming in there

35:08

from all corners of the Roman

35:10

Empire and that's a place that they would meet to exchange

35:13

news. So it really was the hub of

35:15

the city. It was the heartbeat of the

35:17

city. It really is pedestrian only. I remember

35:19

there's big tall stones that mark the end

35:21

of a traffic road right at the gateway

35:24

to the forum. Exactly. The main

35:26

square. The main forum we would have great

35:28

temples. We would have marketplaces. What

35:30

else would we have? You would have administration buildings.

35:33

You would have the Basilica which is the

35:35

most important building for administering justice

35:37

where a judge would sit. You

35:40

would have something like a city hall and

35:42

you would have all kinds of shops. So think about what

35:44

we would call a shopping mall. It's dramatic

35:46

to me because you stand in the forum and you think

35:48

of the grandeur of this when you can kind of put

35:51

this rubble all back together and then you look on the

35:53

horizon and you see half a mountain. Exactly.

35:55

It's very Vesuvius and to

35:57

think that it once was pyramids.

36:00

Right? Fact: I believe that the great

36:02

museum in Naples has most important aren't

36:05

from Pompei, right? Everything that was not

36:07

stolen during the unauthorized. Excavations was taken

36:09

to the Naples Archaeological Museum the most. Important

36:11

and all of Italy. And as I remember

36:13

seeing a fresco that actually shows pump before

36:15

it blu ray in hundred and vegetation all

36:18

the way to the tongue. It looks like

36:20

a cornucopia of abundance and life. And life

36:22

Really was good. Before. Seventy

36:24

Nine eighty? Absolutely. Because that's always

36:26

been a heavily volcanic area. The soil

36:28

extremely. Rich and for it also is always a

36:30

great place for growing. Finds. Ends or

36:32

olive trees. So they had a very. Important wine production.

36:34

that was when the biggest industries outside upon

36:36

pay This is travel with Rick Steves for

36:38

talking about Pompei with third tour guide Nina

36:40

Bernardo and down when we worked on the

36:42

streets of Pump they were reminded what clever

36:45

engineers the Romans were. Sidewalks. Are

36:47

elevated to cover plumbing also to keep you from

36:49

getting wet if you think about water that would

36:51

have been rushing through the streets at all times.

36:53

Animals that were pulling the carriages would have left

36:55

their x from it in the street so you

36:57

don't want to walk on that and sectors even

36:59

stepping stones arthur exactly crosswalks so you can step

37:01

over there to get the other side stepping. Stones

37:03

that let the chariot we'll go by another

37:05

mccann the cobbles. But people when they're my

37:07

sandals could stay above all the muck. Exactly.

37:09

And you can also underneath some of that you can

37:12

see. Where they laid there piping. So you can

37:14

understand that they had a piping system that brought

37:16

water to each and every individual home. so they

37:18

would have had t junctions that brought water from

37:20

the water towers. To. The drinking fountains but also

37:22

to each of. The individual homes. And.

37:24

The leary, democratic and that way hustle waltz

37:26

is that everybody had access, for example, to

37:28

running water. He didn't have to live in

37:30

the Pasha section of town. Okay, And.

37:33

You can even see the lead pipes remaining. you

37:35

can write the ones that weren't stolen or another.

37:37

You can see grooves carved into the stone from

37:39

the chariots right and you can see where they

37:41

were replacing some of those stones as they were

37:44

continuing doing maintenance. On the city and we have

37:46

to remember as well the Pump A existed well

37:48

before. By seventy nine a D Pump. A was

37:50

already six hundred years old. Really? so

37:52

it was it a well established town by take

37:55

us into a private home and pump a what

37:57

would we see how can we can have and

37:59

insight into and lifestyle of somebody who had a

38:01

nice home in Pompeii. A middle class

38:03

home or an extremely wealthy home, basically the same layout,

38:05

but you walk in and there's kind of a welcome

38:07

area, an atrium area that would have been open

38:09

to the sky so rainwater would have come in

38:11

and drained into a cistern. There

38:14

would have been a waiting area where you would have waited

38:16

to see the man of the house if you

38:18

had any business to attend to. And off to the

38:20

sides would have been private bedrooms, maybe in the back

38:22

there would have been a beautiful garden where they

38:24

would have had outdoor meals in

38:26

the summertime. If they would

38:28

have had guests there, they would have had

38:31

their meals and they would have had slaves

38:33

entertaining them with music and poetry. It's amazing

38:35

and beautiful frescoes remain on some of the walls.

38:37

On some of the walls, yes. The villa of

38:40

the mysteries especially, but almost everywhere you go you

38:42

can see the remnants of some painting. Now it's

38:44

dark, we've just had a party, I want to

38:46

go for a stroll in the streets, there's not

38:48

a lot of light, but there's little,

38:51

the sidewalks. The sidewalks all have marble

38:53

chips in them, so they're almost like cat's

38:55

eyes, so they reflect the moonlight so that

38:57

you can get around without being in total

38:59

darkness. I mean it's really amazing the detail

39:01

that they attended to. These are the little

39:03

intimate insights you can gain by thoughtfully

39:05

approaching a great site like Pompeii, but

39:08

imagine walking just by moonlight and you

39:10

have these reflective cat eyes in the

39:12

sidewalk in a day before electricity

39:14

obviously that helped you know where you're going. It's

39:17

genius. What's another little intimate glimpse

39:19

of life that you enjoy as a guide?

39:21

I love seeing the snack bars because it's

39:23

a fast food of ancient times.

39:25

So you walk in and you see where the containers were

39:27

held, where they would have kept food hot or

39:29

cold. Usually the snack bars are

39:32

outside of the theaters or the brothels

39:34

or the spas, the baths,

39:36

and that's where people would have gone to get a meal

39:38

or a drink. And I forget the number of maybe 40

39:41

odd, 50 odd snack bars in Pompeii? Snack

39:44

bars all over town? All over town. I believe

39:46

there were 30 brothels. Right. Also

39:48

an important industry. But if you think about Pompeii

39:50

as a traveling town, a commercial town, all those

39:52

travelers coming in there. Ah, it was a sailor's town.

39:55

Yeah, exactly. Because you know a lot

39:57

of people forget that the sea silts up and recedes over

39:59

2000 years. years. Right, so Pompeii was much

40:01

closer to the sea. This

40:03

is Travel with Richties. We're talking with Nina Bernardo.

40:06

We're talking about Pompeii. Our phone number is 877-333-7425.

40:11

Daphne is on the phone in Kensington, Maryland. Daphne,

40:13

thanks for your call. You're welcome.

40:17

My husband and I go to Italy for the first time

40:19

and we'll be in Rome for a week and

40:21

I'm wondering is it worth taking

40:24

all day and going to Pompeii or will

40:26

we get a similar experience at? I think

40:28

it's called Asta Antica in your room. Well,

40:30

this is a very, very good point, Daphne, because

40:32

as I mentioned Pompeii is three and a half

40:34

hours south of Rome really by train and that's

40:36

a grueling day but it can be done. But

40:39

Astia Antica, the ancient seaport of Rome, which

40:41

I think had 60,000 people in its heyday,

40:44

is just a half an hour subway train ride to

40:46

the south of Rome and that could give you an

40:49

adequate experience and save you six hours

40:51

in route. Nina, how would you compare

40:53

Astia with Pompeii? I think they're both

40:55

excellent experiences but I think Pompeii is really worth

40:57

the train back and forth because I think it

40:59

gives you a much more complete picture. Astia

41:02

is the most important port with a trade in

41:04

a commercial town but Pompeii really gives you a

41:06

look into daily life for the average Roman citizen.

41:09

I would stress that the great art

41:11

of Pompeii is now in the National

41:13

Museum in Naples. Daphne, what

41:15

you might want to do is just give yourself

41:17

a couple of nights in Sorrento, a

41:19

beautiful town just a half an hour away from

41:21

Pompeii. That's the resort town. Naples is kind of

41:24

like the urban jungle. So you could take the

41:26

train down to Sorrento and spend the better part

41:28

of the day in Naples visiting the

41:30

National Museum and enjoying what I just think is one of

41:32

the most exciting cities in all of Europe, Naples.

41:35

Settle into the resort in Sorrento and then

41:37

take most of the next day to see

41:39

Pompeii, enjoy Sorrento that evening

41:41

and then take the train back to Rome. Nina, any

41:44

thoughts on that? I think that's a great use of

41:46

time, absolutely. And it's a nice break away from Rome

41:48

as well just to get onto the coast for a

41:50

while. Okay. Any other thoughts, Daphne? I

41:52

guess another question honestly is when I looked

41:54

online at some of the images of Pompeii,

41:57

I saw I think what it's so there

41:59

like... the bodies of some of the people who died.

42:02

And then I thought, oh, God, is this really going

42:04

to be very depressing? Well, there are only

42:06

a couple of places there where you can see the

42:08

plaster casts. So one, in one of the marketplaces, they

42:11

have two display cases. And then there's another area that

42:13

you really have to seek out to see more of

42:15

the plaster casts. But I think that's just a

42:17

really interesting look. I think it actually brings the

42:19

people of Pompeii closer, the Pompeians closer to us

42:21

to see that. OK, so it's

42:23

only in two places. And it's not like all,

42:26

you don't see them everywhere. It's not going

42:28

to be a morbid experience. There's

42:30

nothing morbid about Pompeii, really, no.

42:33

But remember, Daphne, the museum in

42:35

Naples is so rich. And you've

42:37

got so much incredible frescoes, and

42:39

pottery, and insights into the intimate

42:41

daily life of the people of

42:43

Pompeii that it's just a shame

42:45

to see Pompeii without going to

42:47

the museum in Naples. I think you've

42:49

only had half of experience if you've done only

42:51

Pompeii. OK, all right. I appreciate

42:53

that. That's great. Thank you, Daphne, for the call.

42:56

And good luck on your trip. Thanks. Bye-bye.

42:59

Another thing, Nina, is Herculaneum is another town that

43:01

was destroyed in the same eruption. It's a small

43:03

version. Well, it's a smaller town, but it's quite

43:05

different. How would you compare Herculaneum and Pompeii? One,

43:08

it was covered in 30 or 40 feet of

43:11

lava and mud. So it's preserved in

43:13

a much better state than Pompeii's in. So you can see, for

43:15

example, some of the wood in situ, which you can't see

43:17

in Pompeii. Some of the second stories you can see. A

43:19

much smaller site because most of it is under the modern

43:21

city. But we've said Pompeii was a

43:24

commercial town. Herculaneum was really a much more upscale

43:26

kind of place. So that whole coast south

43:28

of Rome around Napoli was the playground of

43:30

the rich and famous. All right. Tour

43:33

guide Nina Bernardo specializes in showing

43:35

visitors the attractions of southern Italy,

43:37

where her own ancestors come from.

43:39

She's helping us explore Pompeii right now on

43:41

Travel with Rick Steves. It's

43:43

where first century life has been

43:46

preserved after Mount Vesuvius buried the

43:48

city in rocks, ash, and deadly

43:50

volcanic gas. Natalie's on the

43:52

line in Ashburn, Virginia. Natalie, thanks for your call.

43:55

Hi, thank you. I am

43:57

taking a cruise, actually, in touring different

43:59

places. in Italy with a group of 10 people

44:02

and they range in age from 13 to 70. And

44:06

so I'm looking for something

44:08

that we can do in,

44:10

you know, a nine-hour-ish time

44:13

period that would be relevant

44:15

for everyone included. You

44:17

know, Natalie, I think I can actually answer this

44:19

quite well because I was just in Naples on

44:21

a cruise and I was

44:23

skeptical about how can you enjoy

44:26

an efficient nine hours on shore

44:28

from your boat in Naples. The

44:30

boat docks literally right downtown in Naples. It's

44:32

the handiest jumping off point for any of

44:35

the cruise ports that I experienced. And right

44:37

there at the port, there's a good tourist

44:39

information office and there's a whole line of

44:41

government regulated taxis. And these guys have regulated

44:44

fees. You don't pay until you're done. And

44:46

there's minibus taxis where you could put a

44:48

lot of people in. With a group of

44:50

10, you could actually book two

44:53

taxis and you'd find that they could do a

44:55

very efficient day for you, giving you a drive

44:57

down to Pompeii. You could actually go up to

44:59

Vesuvius if you wanted to. They could take you

45:01

through the site at Pompeii and they would get you

45:03

back to the ship before departure time. And they have

45:05

an incentive in that because they don't get paid until

45:07

they bring you back in time for you to catch

45:10

your ship. And is it better then to

45:12

negotiate a rate up front or just is it a

45:14

per hour rate? How does that work? They

45:16

would have the rates actually printed right there

45:18

and you would want to establish the rate

45:20

and make it really clear this is the

45:22

complete rate. The beautiful thing about renting a

45:24

taxi from the port is wherever you are

45:26

in Europe, it's about the same for one

45:28

person or for four people. And if you

45:30

had a minibus, it would be marginally more

45:32

expensive. But it really becomes quite efficient and

45:34

quite economic when you have a group of

45:36

people all doing something together. Your biggest

45:39

frustration, Natalie, is going to be there's like three

45:41

days worth of things to see from that cruise

45:43

port and you've only got that one day. Exactly.

45:45

That's why, you know, especially with the big difference

45:47

in ages, I wanted to make sure I saw

45:49

the things that were the most

45:52

popular but that would still be appealing

45:54

to all the ages. Well, if

45:56

you've got the luxury of a driver and

45:58

a guide and a car. I

46:00

think you just want to hit the ground running as

46:02

soon as that gangplinks down beyond it. Okay Well,

46:05

I appreciate it. Thank you for your help. You bet. Good

46:07

luck. Natalie with your little tour of 10 Thank

46:10

you so much. Allison's on the line

46:12

in Spokane, Washington. Allison. Thanks for your call.

46:14

Well, hi, Rick and Nina. Thank you My

46:16

family and I are flying into Rome We

46:19

arrive on a Wednesday morning in Rome with our

46:21

14 year old son Then we have a full

46:23

day Thursday in Rome before we leave in the

46:25

morning on Friday to go to Venice to meet up

46:27

with So we have this full day in

46:29

Rome We've always wanted to go

46:31

see Pompeii, but I wonder is it

46:33

really a doable one-day trip with a

46:35

bus tour We can't afford the expensive

46:37

private guide I'm wondering for price and

46:39

amount of hours are we going to

46:41

be completely exhausted and kind of spoil

46:43

the rest of our Big trip. We'd

46:46

love to see Pompeii We'd also just love to

46:48

have a leisurely afternoon on the Amalfi Coast and

46:50

then hop on a bus and get back in

46:52

bed In time not to be exhausted the next

46:54

day. What do you think? Your problem

46:56

is you only have one day Just

46:58

trying to do two days worth of stuff in one day

47:00

Yeah, you really have to choose what it is you want

47:03

one of those options is possible, but you have to choose

47:05

You mean either Pompeii or the coast

47:08

exactly? Yeah, it is Italy things

47:10

don't work like clockwork You're in Rome and Pompeii

47:13

is south of Naples. So there's an express train

47:15

What is it two hours from Rome to Naples

47:17

now? Yeah, the really fast one is an hour five minutes

47:19

Okay, so if you can afford the fast train that'll save

47:21

you a couple hours of time in route over the course

47:23

of the day you might Consider

47:27

having a driver. Well, it's expensive to have

47:29

a driver, you know, so you need to use public

47:31

transit I think it was close to a thousand

47:33

dollars I think for the three of us to have

47:36

a private driver for a full day to do Pompeii

47:38

and Amalfi I think but that would be

47:40

from Rome But you would go faster by train

47:42

than by private driver if you want to have

47:44

the luxury of a private driver But you don't

47:46

want to spend a thousand dollars You've got to

47:48

take the train from Rome to Naples and then

47:51

it's five bucks to take this circumn of Suviana

47:53

right to the doorstep Of Pompeii. Oh, okay. It's

47:55

very easy. Nina. Nina could get from your hotel

47:57

in Rome to Pompeii in two

47:59

hours if she had to. Probably. But

48:02

that's really knowing how to do it. This

48:04

is the classic American problem. You're trying to do

48:06

too much. You know, in half

48:08

an hour you could be at Ostia. Ostia

48:10

is really great. You've got a 14-year-old with

48:12

you. Ostia is your neighborhood Pompeii

48:15

that's just easy access from Rome. And

48:17

every time I go to Ostia, I

48:19

just feel like this is really a

48:22

special discovery. And you get the magic. It's

48:24

not as good as Pompeii, but you're gonna

48:26

save six hours of travel time by

48:29

going to Ostia instead of Pompeii.

48:32

And I think to be practical, you sound

48:34

like you don't want to exhaust yourself and

48:36

you're on vacation, you know. Right. Take it

48:39

easy. Make Ostia your Pompeii, given

48:41

the fact that you only have one day and

48:43

you have a child with you from Rome. I

48:46

think that's a great idea. And come back and

48:48

make it an excuse to come back and

48:50

do the Sorento Pompeii coastal. Exactly. Because,

48:52

you know, for 25 years I was

48:54

leading tours in this area and the

48:56

one place where we could spend more

48:58

nights than any other, even Paris and

49:00

Rome and so on, was Sorento. There

49:02

was so much to do from Sorento.

49:04

You've got the Amalfi coast, you've got

49:06

Capri, you've got Vesuvius, you've got Pompeii,

49:08

you've got a wonderful city of Naples,

49:10

and you've got just the elegance of

49:12

being on vacation in Sorento. Fantastic.

49:15

Thanks, Alison. Thank you so much. And good for you for

49:17

taking your 14-year-old over there and having all of that inspiration.

49:19

My first trip to Europe was when I was 14 and

49:21

I ended up getting a history

49:24

degree by accident and then ended up

49:26

finding the career of my dreams. Okay.

49:28

Awesome. Same with me. I went at 14, I

49:31

studied art history as a minor and it

49:33

opened the whole world for me. Isn't that great?

49:35

I'm excited. Thanks a lot. Okay, bye now. Okay,

49:37

bye. This is Travel with Rick

49:40

Steves. We've been prowling the ruins of Pompeii and

49:42

bringing them to life with the help of Nina

49:44

Bernardo. Nina, when you take a

49:46

group through Pompeii, what is one spot where you

49:48

really can kind of imagine you're actually

49:50

there? I love going to the

49:53

public baths. One, I love seeing the Roman

49:55

engineering, how they managed to make the hollow

49:57

walls with the terracotta piping in there so

49:59

that they could... pipe in steam to

50:01

make saunas. I love the beautiful

50:03

decorations that they have in there, not only

50:05

the mosaics but the beautiful stucco decorations that

50:07

are still left there. But most of all,

50:09

I love realizing and understanding that those public

50:11

baths were open to everybody. And now, today,

50:13

we consider going to a spa kind of

50:15

a luxury, whereas there they went all the

50:18

time and it was the full experience, the

50:20

massaging, the oils, the

50:22

warm room, the hot room, the cold plunge

50:25

pool. The beautiful decor.

50:27

The beautiful decor. My goodness. As a tour

50:29

guide, somebody is lucky to have you to

50:31

show them around, to bring that culture back

50:33

to life. Nina Bernardo, thanks so much for

50:35

sharing your expertise of Pompeii with us. Thank

50:38

you. Travel

50:40

with Rick Steves is produced at Rick

50:43

Steves Europe in Edmonds, Washington, by Tim

50:45

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50:48

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50:52

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50:54

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50:57

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50:59

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