0:00

1972 title

0:02

9 was signed into law, prohibited

0:04

discrimination based on and change the

0:06

game for girls and women sports across

0:09

the nation, to learn more the greater columbus

0:11

sports listen

0:13

to the new starting night off

0:15

celebrate the 50th anniversary of title

0:17

nine with nine stories about girls and

0:20

women sports with the columbus blue

0:22

jackets

0:25

on iheartradio or your podcast

0:27

at 4

0:30

i have a dream speech gives me goosebumps

0:32

to this day and , take

0:34

that as a a seriously

0:37

and when i see it violated it makes

0:39

me angry and it makes me makes in

0:43

the midst of a revolution it's like

0:45

there's a frenzy when

0:48

the fog clears you

0:50

can see off all the things that

0:52

were done that were wrong

0:55

that were deeply wrong

0:57

there was four billion

1:00

dollars of aid for farmers with that only

1:03

if you are not why you're white

1:05

restaurant owner or away struggling

1:07

farmer that loses their

1:10

farm in the context of a recession

1:12

you are never going to forgive

1:15

that you are not treated on the basis of need

1:17

but you are treated on the basis of race just

1:20

like black people in america have not

1:22

forgotten redlining jim

1:24

crow where's this gun

1:27

or i know know that depends that lot on

1:30

the actions in the bravery of millions

1:33

of individuals many

1:35

of whom will be watching this

1:38

video

1:48

hello and welcome to very

1:51

special episode it's trigonometry

1:53

on the road from the usa

1:56

i'm frances poster i'm concerned citizen

1:58

and this is a show

1:59

for you if you want honest conversations

2:02

with fascinating people a

2:04

brilliant guess and returning to the show

2:07

now in person for the first time a

2:09

he is the right to a musician

2:11

and put [unk] costa coleman he was welcomed the trigonometry

2:13

thank you for having me again that mine it's great

2:15

to see you we're actually by accident

2:18

got a chance to hang out last night we went to see

2:20

a show at the comedy cellar had a chance

2:22

to channel a little bit which is great because

2:25

the last time we had you on the show it was

2:27

some of the of twenty twenty was peak of

2:29

the blm right rachel conversation

2:32

that we had of the time when we we go to a load

2:34

of your ideas and thoughts about the world

2:37

but one of the things we're starting to find

2:39

this people who talk about the stuff that you talk

2:41

about it and the we talk about it and who are willing

2:43

like you to actually be

2:45

public about the and to speak out of a about

2:48

to on risk things usually

2:50

there's like a reason or set of reasons

2:52

why they do this it doesn't just happen by accident

2:55

so i guess the question is like

2:57

what's your backstory what your

2:59

backstory you sitting in the shower in know

3:01

that's a good question i don't know how

3:03

much i can the

3:06

answer it from the inside sometimes

3:10

the people can the

3:12

scene you more accurately from outside and you can

3:14

see yourself but and so

3:16

far as i understand myself i think hi

3:21

i was raised in a context

3:23

where i really do not care

3:26

about race one where the other i

3:28

was raised in a very diverse upbringing

3:33

and the

3:36

consensus growing up was

3:40

the martin luther king ideal and

3:43

i lived that as a child very much

3:45

i had friends of every race and i didn't

3:47

think about race and

3:49

suddenly when

3:51

he twelve twenty thirteen twenty fourteen

3:54

came around and

3:57

people started telling me

4:00

you're a victim

4:02

and

4:03

race really does separate

4:05

you from your friends

4:07

that are white or asian

4:10

really the could visit an important feature

4:12

of your identity there are certain things

4:14

you can understand and up as a black person that

4:16

you're you're you're white friends can't and

4:19

i knew this to be instinctively wrong

4:21

instinctively had lived enough lived think you

4:24

know that

4:27

the race really is the

4:30

only in deep as you want to make it

4:32

or as deep as you choose to make it

4:35

and

4:36

that is it's wrong to make

4:40

make it matter and

4:43

the blm

4:45

head and at

4:48

the time i was a musician in

4:50

mostly in jazz and i had

4:53

friends of every race in that community and

4:55

we really all connected on

4:57

a deep level over loving the same

4:59

music which was further evidence the

5:02

i wouldn't make may not have said it this way the time

5:04

as further evidence that you

5:08

know the human family is not deeply

5:10

separated into races right like

5:12

you can connect with

5:15

someone of a different race so deeply

5:17

that you build a life with them

5:19

and marry them and have kids with them right

5:21

and you can do the most even have the most

5:24

intimate relationships of your life

5:26

with people have a different race and the happens every day's

5:28

retain so this

5:30

new ideology what

5:34

when i went to columbia i was i was

5:36

inundated with his new ideology what which

5:39

the at it in the

5:43

segment of society that had the least

5:45

racism that i've ever seen right

5:47

columbia university ivy league schools

5:50

progressive as as it possibly gets right so

5:52

progressive that there are posters

5:54

on the

5:56

walls of hallways that's say

5:58

we're max and instead women might like that's

6:01

how lat next

6:03

in a little so progressive

6:05

that there's a new language like ten

6:08

steps left the democratic party that's how anti

6:10

racists it was precisely in that space

6:12

i was hearing the the

6:15

the students say i experienced racism every

6:17

day on this campus i was hearing them

6:19

speak about

6:22

the level of racism in this environment

6:26

in in a way that i would hear like my

6:28

grandparents speak about growing

6:30

up under jim crow that

6:33

that cried out to me as like something

6:35

is amiss hear something is wrong i

6:38

i and i became very curious about

6:40

what that was

6:42

i'm going to still be there when they said that they were talking

6:44

about their experiences of racism on

6:47

the campus the columbia campus

6:49

full moon level examples

6:51

did they give

6:54

the

7:00

so i'm not i can't really recall is some

7:02

of them would be what would have been called micro

7:04

aggressions and new years ago more

7:07

often they will give examples at all and

7:12

this is where are the lived experience

7:14

can matter because if

7:17

, an outsider reading a black columbia

7:19

student say i experienced racism every

7:21

day you may now known to think that you may say

7:24

well that's interesting shakespeare's is racism every

7:26

next as , student

7:28

at columbia that was

7:31

you know staying until

7:33

two am on a canvas all the

7:35

time giving security guards plenty

7:37

of opportunities to be racist against

7:39

me an experience like

7:42

mirrors zero racism like

7:44

really close to zero maybe

7:46

once one anomalous

7:49

experience and four years right

7:52

everything else wishes only

7:55

the only non racist i knew that

7:57

it was a lie that these these kids were putting

7:59

it on that they were it's

8:01

highly incentivized to do so by the subculture

8:03

because

8:06

the victim hood became

8:09

currency became social currency

8:11

in a as social beings we are extremely

8:14

attuned to how

8:16

to elevate ourselves in in status

8:18

railways it's like it's

8:21

most of what were built the

8:23

do is to so

8:25

if you live in his in a subculture were

8:28

you are cool and and

8:30

a high status precisely in

8:32

so far as you can persuade people they

8:34

are victim of the prussian

8:36

racism sexism homophobia etc

8:39

people respond to those social incentives and

8:41

incentives could see that see that

8:43

that's what was going on

8:46

the you see this which is cool i think a

8:48

lot of people say it but there's

8:50

another piece to my first question

8:52

to which is why are you

8:54

someone who feel strongly enough about

8:56

said to actually put themselves on themselves line over

9:00

that's a good question i think i

9:04

really took it seriously when

9:07

i was taught martin luther king's words

9:09

as a kid i have a dream speech

9:12

gives me goosebumps to this day and

9:14

i take that the

9:17

very seriously and when i see it violated

9:20

it makes me angry and it makes me sad

9:23

and when

9:25

i see that people

9:27

our on

9:30

are hesitant and fearful to speak

9:33

up in defense of it it makes me feel that

9:35

i it i ought to

9:37

well that

9:39

home when you use the word violated

9:41

which is a very strong word and oversee

9:43

your super smart guy you've used that word

9:47

the reason

9:48

what do you mean by the would violated that

9:51

i had violated yet violated them

9:54

mlk and yeah yeah yeah

9:56

wow the

9:59

the ethic

9:59

that the principal is

10:02

that

10:02

race

10:04

race actually does not matter and

10:07

the people to make the who who do

10:09

make race matter are making error

10:11

this is precisely what was the problem

10:15

with white supremacy jim

10:17

crow slavery and

10:20

all of the myriad abuses that

10:22

black people suffered throughout

10:24

the history of america from

10:26

even before it's founding

10:28

was that

10:32

people made race matter when it should not

10:34

have and judge people

10:37

not on the basis of their in a individual

10:39

abilities but on the accident

10:42

of their birth into a particular race

10:45

that is the error it always has

10:47

been

10:48

and

10:50

that principal has been violated

10:52

in the name of hang

10:55

black people back for history essentially the

10:59

the idea is that we're going to make up

11:01

for all that all a horrible white

11:04

supremacy of the past by

11:07

flipping the discrimination as as even

11:09

can he says i imagine your viewers are

11:11

familiar with even

11:13

candies both in on the the

11:15

remedy to past discrimination is

11:17

present discrimination the

11:20

few anti racist say it

11:23

they in the quiet part out loud

11:25

but that weekend he does the

11:27

idea is we are going to discriminate

11:30

against white people

11:32

as a group in order to make up

11:34

for all of what was what has been

11:36

done to black americans the

11:39

past which requires violation

11:43

of the civil rights

11:45

ethic the civil rights ethic was not

11:47

to discriminate against white people

11:49

not to reverse the logic

11:51

of jim crow it was too who

11:55

have to start a new right

11:57

from a race neutral perspective

12:00

and we can

12:03

you know

12:06

all of the problems

12:08

of intergenerational poverty and

12:11

the

12:13

really dealing with a disadvantage and privilege

12:16

and economic inequality

12:18

we didn't really address those in

12:20

a race neutral framework and a framework

12:22

that does not say your this

12:24

color so you're gonna get you're

12:26

going to get this policy in your this color

12:28

see you're gonna get this policy i'm

12:31

, a week we have people we know how

12:33

much money people make it

12:36

is possible to do any program

12:38

that the be race based do

12:40

a based on income and class and

12:43

if that's a much closer

12:45

proxy to who is actually disadvantaged

12:49

read in society to begin with and it's

12:51

fairer and

12:53

and so that's what i mean when i say

12:56

that

12:57

ideal has been violent an end and

12:59

you think that one of the reasons that this

13:01

way of doing i'm in got one of the things

13:03

with chances in on the show in many different

13:06

formats with many different people is

13:08

the shift of the left from working

13:11

people to certain racial

13:13

and other minority groups in his

13:15

i do think one of the reasons is that

13:17

it's easier to motivate people

13:20

in this way race runs deeper

13:22

with people than something like class is

13:25

, to cultivate

13:27

, of victimhood for example

13:29

within a group based on their tribal sort

13:31

of ethnicity or whatever then it is on

13:34

something a bit more abstract like class

13:36

i do think that's right i think one

13:38

of the mistakes that the

13:41

marxist of the past made was

13:44

thinking that last

13:47

could be made such a salient

13:49

and important identity to people have many

13:51

different races that they would spontaneously

13:53

you night really feel one with

13:57

members of different ethnicities different language

14:00

is because of a for both poor

14:03

and i think it turns out that human

14:06

tribal psychology is more

14:08

easily activated much more easily

14:10

activated on the basis of ethnicity then

14:13

it is on the basis of class to the point

14:15

where you have people that have almost

14:18

nothing almost nothing the like

14:20

i'm a poor black person from the hood

14:23

ryan has actually very

14:25

little in common i would argue they

14:28

have more in common with a poor white person from

14:30

the trailer park from the proverbial trailer parks

14:32

than he does with a

14:35

black person like myself i grew up

14:37

with wealth

14:39

right

14:41

though a and yet it

14:43

seems to be easier to get people to

14:45

connect on the basis of race

14:48

and ethnicity than on the basis

14:50

of class

14:52

amazing isn't it

14:54

how we've seen

14:56

race relations regress a it's

14:58

really sad kicking you explains

15:00

was some of the things that a star or the policies

15:03

of started or been spoken

15:05

about that they're going to be implemented

15:07

in the us in the poet in on

15:09

the past few years of the upcoming few years

15:12

there an example of this

15:14

oh sure yeah so

15:18

though we can start with the

15:22

pandemic era aid policies that

15:24

have been distributed on race so

15:26

there's the may american rescue plan which was a

15:29

two trillion dollar bailout

15:32

the height of the pandemic and twenty twenty one

15:34

to help americans are struggling to how

15:36

businesses part of that

15:38

was twenty billion dollars for restaurants

15:41

that we're going out of business everyday

15:44

and

15:45

the program was done in such a way that

15:49

anyone not white was put in

15:52

front of the line automatically in social

15:54

priority groups if you're white and

15:57

it took a lot more work to

15:59

get into category

16:03

there was four billion

16:05

dollars of aid for farmers with that only

16:09

if you are nonwhite the euro

16:12

that money was available to you if you are a white

16:14

farmers with that there in your money

16:16

in the bill available to you in general right

16:19

the just the bottom money only

16:21

for non white farmers

16:23

the

16:25

and again if you are you're

16:27

white restaurant owner or a white struggling

16:30

farmer that loses their

16:32

farm in the context of a recession

16:35

people are losing their businesses every that and

16:37

their your business is your life in been asked

16:40

absolutely you are never going to

16:42

forgive that you are not treated

16:44

on the basis of need the

16:46

you are treated on the basis of race just

16:49

like black people in america have not

16:51

forgotten redlining

16:53

jim crow you

16:56

know conduct li same all

16:59

these policies that affected black americans

17:03

had not been forgotten and in many cases have

17:05

not been forgiven end we should not

17:07

expect that these kinds of things are going to be forgotten

17:09

are forgiven the and

17:11

certainly not going to be excuse on the basis of

17:14

paying for other people's sins

17:16

the thing that are foreign completely baffling

17:19

when you expect when

17:20

you talking about this when you're talking about

17:22

it now

17:24

the people who come up with these are these to

17:26

they know realized this really pisses

17:28

people off quite rightly and they will

17:31

be a backlash

17:32

yeah they in it's interesting

17:34

i think i

17:37

think many people are able to

17:41

ignore don't

17:43

ignore the backlash in two ways so

17:46

in in in one way they will just

17:48

actually not a look at it right

17:50

like a lot of a lot

17:52

of i think top democrat party

17:55

operatives would not actually

17:58

like these policies if they look them in

18:01

the face is just a car sweep

18:03

it under the rug they don't report about it they

18:05

don't wash the tucker carlson segments about

18:07

it because why would they wash that and and

18:10

they soft pedal lead if you bring it

18:12

up they say i was it wasn't really that

18:15

it was something softer they use

18:17

language the orwellian euphemisms

18:19

of priority group and historically disadvantaged

18:22

group

18:24

which you know all of which

18:27

is intended to soften the

18:29

truth which is that you gave people money

18:31

limited money because it a race

18:33

that they happened to be born into and you denied

18:36

it to others on the basis of race

18:38

hearing

18:39

and so there's that but then there's also the

18:42

way this will be reporting on his the groups

18:45

that part of the backlash

18:47

will they are maggot backed groups

18:49

rates so as a mag backed

18:52

lawsuit against the farmer bill

18:54

right when you read this in the new york times they

18:57

will make sure to front load

18:59

for you and therefore prime

19:02

prime you as a reader to like

19:04

i'm like i don't like manga i don't like trump

19:06

i voted against him twice so when i read that it's a maggot

19:08

backed lawsuit that's

19:11

priming me to say oh well we with their

19:13

anger doesn't count were bunch of racist

19:15

being racist their much raises being racist exactly

19:18

where as if you were to meet more of these

19:20

people the white restaurant

19:22

owner struggling the

19:24

who may have had no you know you may

19:26

assume this person had clinical white

19:28

privilege or whenever be you know nothing about his first

19:31

back on the he might he might have struggled just

19:34

as much or more than a black restaurant at any

19:36

given black restaurant owner the

19:40

and then you

19:42

meet him any look in his eyes and you go to his restaurant

19:44

and and you see that this

19:46

person was reported on as

19:49

basically eg a court angry white

19:51

guy a

19:53

in a way that was intended to to

19:56

let you dismiss his anger as and valid

19:59

i mean you know and and by the

20:01

way what was the civil rights movement but

20:03

a long overdue backlash to

20:06

jim crow laws that's what it was

20:08

so that the language of backlash

20:10

i think is it is intended

20:13

to make you feel that this

20:15

, that people are reacting

20:18

in it and that they're coming from a place

20:20

of anger that's invalid and

20:23

i and it should not

20:25

anger should be seen as m

20:30

the like a perfectly

20:32

predictable consequence of people being discriminated

20:35

against rent the discrimination should stop

20:37

right well this is what i was gonna

20:39

ask you about because and i

20:42

i talk about it in my book

20:44

about one experience that i hadn't

20:46

the uk when i was invited to participate

20:48

in i'm in , tv discussion

20:50

of these similar issues and

20:54

afterwards one of the pretty was a panel of several

20:56

people and afterwards one of the presenters

20:59

during the outbreak looked

21:01

a man they when i'm so

21:03

glad to one any white british people here to be

21:05

involved in this conversation

21:09

and i was completely stunned

21:11

by this the he was only when

21:13

i got home late i was like why would they say

21:15

that like they know i don't agree

21:17

with this imagine i recorded that

21:19

i'm i put that out whatever

21:24

and then i was only one i got home later that i realized

21:27

this is normal to these people this

21:29

way of thinking is normal now

21:33

how do you sometimes wonder how

21:35

hot like went because when you talk about mlk

21:38

on that that speech on the ideal

21:40

that's what i grew up with that's what

21:42

i that's where i thought i thought that was the

21:44

destination of your role working

21:46

towards us and here we are not

21:49

only have we not made progress towards that

21:52

we're actually going back

21:54

on that

21:55

how did we get him

21:57

the i mean that that is a the

22:00

question i

22:02

think there are few factors

22:05

so let's be clear it the backlash

22:08

d

22:09

let's say that the race obsession

22:13

goes back a long time it was there

22:16

during ammo case time right you you had

22:18

you had malcolm x you had the black power movement

22:20

you in the black panthers you had an intellectual

22:22

tradition starting

22:26

with critical race theory no

22:28

in the seventies and eighties and the

22:30

precursors to critical race theory in the seventies

22:33

which came out of more out of the black our tradition

22:36

which were saying even back then

22:39

no race really does matter in intrinsically

22:41

matters because of white

22:46

the country being stupid white supremacy being

22:48

born with white supremacy being stamped

22:50

from the beginning that slavery

22:52

it will never not matter and

22:54

let's drop this whole naive i

22:57

don't see race be that that that the

23:00

strain and always been there it was just it was friend

23:03

too small it wasn't

23:06

it wasn't necessarily the

23:09

ruling ideology of every elite

23:11

university it wasn't a major factor

23:13

in the democratic party so

23:17

the question is what changed to allow

23:19

the idea that race matters

23:21

them race should be infused in every

23:24

policy when allow that

23:26

two

23:28

really dominate the

23:31

side and dominate cultural institutions

23:35

and that's

23:37

something i haven't told he figured out the answer to

23:39

but some

23:41

parts are an answer i think our

23:43

one i think

23:45

the decline of christianity has something to

23:47

do with it because

23:51

the

23:52

martin luther king was a christian and

23:54

he spoke in christian language

23:57

or and she would say in cry

24:00

it is neither greek nord you black

24:03

norway bond more free

24:05

and what i meant

24:07

who an audience of christians

24:10

black white and and other

24:12

the that

24:13

we're all mean the image of god god

24:16

is the transcendent story

24:19

that

24:21

the unites us right like how how does it matter

24:23

that you're black and that i am and then you

24:25

know that you're white if

24:28

we're both christian for both men named image

24:30

of god and now the very powerful

24:33

thing the very powerful

24:36

compelling argument actually that persuaded

24:38

a lotta people obviously

24:41

christianity's are on the decline and i'm

24:43

not a christian i wasn't raised with it and all but

24:46

it's much more difficult you

24:48

get people behind and narrative

24:50

of common humanity when

24:52

you don't have a religious backing

24:55

when you're just saying you

24:57

know we're we're all one where oh yeah so

25:00

that that that doesn't tend to be as compelling as

25:02

if there's not a religious element

25:05

to it is it more difficult cell

25:07

and then i think people revert into

25:10

tribes and

25:15

and so i think it has something to do the

25:17

decline of christianity as thing as something to do

25:19

with the rise of social media and

25:22

how fast ideas can spread how fast

25:24

videos can spread

25:26

in so far hi frances

25:28

do you go on the internet to look at

25:31

is it stuff that you be embarrassed

25:33

to show your friends? is

25:36

it stuff that would get you canceled? yeah,

25:38

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27:02

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27:27

i got express vpn dot com

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slash trigger to learn more

27:32

you think

27:34

one of the things that is so powerful

27:36

about these ideas in this ideology

27:39

he just can't seem to trauma

27:42

you know what i mean because everybody's

27:45

had bad things happen to them you know

27:48

everybody you know that particular he if

27:50

he if you know ethnic minority background you're working

27:52

cost

27:53

you can name

27:55

specific instances where you might be discriminated

27:57

against people races to only

28:00

the if we're going to be generous people abuse

28:02

clumsy language towards you and

28:05

once you start tapping into people's emotions

28:07

they stop thinking logically and

28:09

they start reacting emotionally that's

28:12

never a good thing when you react emotion

28:15

in a situation

28:17

it encourages the right

28:19

right

28:19

no it doesn't

28:24

i saw lot of this up or when i was at

28:26

columbia of

28:30

the a kind of social

28:34

incentives to remember

28:36

and magnify any

28:38

real experiences of discrimination

28:40

is had so i even

28:42

saw this when this was in high school we wanted

28:45

we wanted affinity group this

28:47

was just the beginning of the

28:49

woke revolution really maybe two thousand

28:51

and twelve where we all the blast

28:54

in semi has got we got for for them

28:56

when a when our couple hours we got together

28:59

you know

29:01

directed by the school and

29:03

gonna talked about black stuff

29:05

whatever and but what basically what it became

29:09

was a competition to find

29:11

the worst thing that had ever been said to you are done

29:13

to you and will

29:16

it was interesting to me because them

29:20

is belts

29:24

it felt like the wrong way to actually

29:27

deal with discrimination

29:30

or is it felt like help

29:33

narrow very much like an

29:36

echo chamber and

29:39

obviously that the argument for that kind of thing is

29:41

oh so we want a safe

29:43

space to like talk about the time

29:46

that you know somebody

29:48

grabbed my afro right like that's the

29:50

kind of thing that would happen that awaken would

29:52

do that a that wouldn't have happened if

29:55

you're at a more diverse score people are an

29:57

afro wasn't a weird thing to have friends

30:00

oh yeah so we need to be we need to talk

30:02

about that and being

30:04

around only around of the black people as is a

30:06

safe space race to do that that

30:09

that's where the argument for and there's something to that

30:11

but what will happen because what it

30:13

very quickly becomes is just

30:17

how

30:19

how like how how

30:21

how much can we just crank the dial

30:24

on our own sense of

30:27

grievance like nurse

30:29

it nurse agreement so that it becomes

30:32

bigger in our minds and

30:35

that's what happens when you're in

30:37

an echo chamber we see that with political echo

30:40

chambers on the right and the last

30:42

the

30:44

and that that's what it is

30:46

been an echo chamber like whatever it started with it

30:48

gets louder and

30:51

and then when we set ourselves back into

30:53

the world with this sense of remains

30:56

that has become bigger because

30:58

we've nurtured it and

31:02

i don't think that that's actually the right

31:04

way to deal with trauma or

31:07

very tempting way to deal with it but

31:10

that's actually not the mature or

31:12

or healthy way to interfere i'm

31:14

one of the things that strikes me about this communists

31:16

like we've been in new york for she days now

31:19

just walking around sitting down having

31:21

lunch outside watching people go by

31:25

you must take an extraordinary amount

31:27

of like effort the

31:29

divide people and racial lines in the

31:31

city because it's like everybody's

31:34

you know why you see people of every race dating

31:36

people of every other race and is that it's

31:39

like it's it's incredibly the

31:42

next you can see that

31:44

it's a the people that are walking down the street their

31:47

race is a really unimportant you can just

31:49

see that by the way they the by the river who they're with

31:51

and how they behaved in on a mean by you're

31:53

not seeing people hang out with only

31:55

people of their race at all and yet here

31:58

we are where the lead

31:59

the course

32:01

maybe this is where the problem is the

32:03

sort of conversations the people have about

32:06

this issue are incredibly

32:08

divided in a city that doesn't look at how

32:10

how how does not work

32:11

the i think there's a very big difference between

32:15

the way elites think and talk about

32:17

this and the way the

32:21

rest of people can talk

32:23

about this the not to say i mean

32:25

the there's a lot of actual

32:28

a tree and tribalism out there showing in

32:30

iowa mind daughter marrying

32:33

a such and such out and area is

32:35

a lot of that up there among non elite but

32:39

i'm already has been out of all races that's right

32:41

the is is often talked about as if

32:45

or what am i one of my gripes

32:47

is if

32:50

you would add me on the basis of lived experience

32:54

where i've encountered the most racism

32:57

like what groups i've encountered the most personal

33:00

racism directed at me from is actually not

33:02

white americans the more

33:04

be like immigrant groups from like

33:07

other countries and in

33:09

terms of like who efforts say the most racist

33:11

stuff allow i'm as an immigrant from

33:13

immigrant eastern european country that does not

33:15

surprise me right and it's not yet

33:17

not not even white immigrant right you know

33:20

though i get neither here nor there

33:22

the point is racism is a sin

33:25

committed by on groups

33:27

of people and yet it's talked

33:29

about as if white people invented

33:33

and are the only ones that perpetuate

33:35

it was i think is a very mary

33:41

at the kind of idea you can only really believe

33:44

is use fear like over educated

33:46

and haven't really lived in

33:48

here in many places in the world in riot

33:51

gear only experience of life is like your ivy

33:53

league degree

33:54

the

33:56

if you if you actually live in the world are going to encounter

33:58

bigotry from everyone realizes

33:59

human foibles as a human's him

34:02

yeah yeah

34:03

we

34:05

good examples that you've given a found it very

34:07

interesting have all a lot

34:09

of it has come from

34:11

the university he went to columbia yeah

34:13

yeah well as a big influence on me you know as

34:15

i think it was on

34:19

it was kind of a culture shock and away i mean

34:21

it in in one sense i was exactly

34:24

the kind of kid that would go to columbia so

34:26

a wasn't my my whole

34:28

life was tracking to go to an ivy

34:30

league school so is totally to be expected

34:33

and it was only thirty minute drive from

34:35

where i grew up but it

34:37

was it was shock in

34:39

the sense that i

34:42

don't think i had ever been around

34:45

that much

34:47

concentrated elite

34:50

privilege out once you have a

34:52

hat hat and what about his ribs

34:57

and then

35:00

again i think mitt maybe the fact that i

35:02

was a musician was part

35:04

of it because i and i really saw myself

35:06

as a musician first because

35:08

music is somewhat

35:11

meritocratic or it's like if

35:13

you're incredible at the saxophone you're

35:16

gonna get into julia or will

35:19

it like you just and

35:21

it is not told told a meritocracy

35:23

but it's like quite close is

35:26

more like sports innocent people

35:28

come from all walks of life and

35:30

end up you end up in the same room as people

35:33

from all different classes all

35:35

different races and you you're

35:37

bonding over this thing and

35:39

that that some

35:42

that's the kind of environment where the

35:45

race loses it's importance

35:48

the

35:49

or is he yeah

35:52

we're we're race loses his it is in fan

35:54

of the exactly like nevada like that you that's

35:56

why is that bond of both being on stage

35:58

algorithms anything else

35:59

right

36:00

that's right and so to go from

36:02

that as the defining like

36:06

you know ecosystem of my social life to

36:08

colombia where is

36:12

like all of a sudden there's

36:15

like all these incredibly guilty

36:18

why people that like are terrified of

36:20

like saying the wrong thing around me and

36:23

i'm i'm very aware of

36:25

the the social power that i have

36:27

in any given isn't like at any time i can pull

36:30

the race card and it's gonna be viewed

36:32

as valid by enough people that

36:35

i can do that and that's that's a them

36:37

very very tempting power to to

36:40

to the wield and

36:42

then i can see other black students during that

36:45

during that you know like when you're back

36:47

into a corner you play the race card and

36:50

and then and then there is the

36:52

nominal of like quietly

36:55

coming out to other students as not

36:57

woke well like there would

36:59

be the first moment where you quietly like

37:01

tell someone like alec not down

37:03

with a whole like thing

37:06

like then they would admit

37:08

to like me to and any would be this

37:10

moment of as you coming

37:12

out and

37:16

that is something i had not experience

37:18

ever

37:19

the knew it was it was ah

37:24

i i i became of necessity

37:26

extremely curious about excels at what

37:29

the hell is going on so

37:32

it was in a way it was kind of a culture

37:34

shock and i talk about it so much because

37:37

the genesis of me writing about

37:39

this issue i used

37:41

to when i was at columbia to nicer right

37:44

you know like thousands of words

37:47

in a google doc the

37:50

nobody but myself to trying to figure

37:52

out why kids

37:55

were speaking like like

37:58

we were living in jim crow

38:00

in precisely in the most

38:03

privileged most

38:05

non racist please

38:08

i never been

38:10

the com and let me ask you this

38:14

we had when we first had

38:17

you on in the summer of twenty twenty that

38:20

was a peak

38:23

at least in this period of time the

38:25

and divisiveness the tensions the

38:29

back

38:30

where do you think we are now

38:33

the word would definitely we

38:35

have descended from the peak twenty twenty

38:37

as you say was the peak of

38:40

the

38:42

racial bullying frankly

38:46

those horrible ideas like this

38:48

one the police actually getting some

38:50

traction the

38:53

of people being

38:58

fired for

39:01

the slightest offenses and for non

39:03

offensive at all he

39:05

ball losing friendships over disagreeing

39:08

about race

39:09

the

39:12

and and he i mean

39:15

we all remember it i think it was in

39:18

the midst of a revolution it's like

39:22

there is a frenzy there

39:24

is a frenzy where people actually can't think

39:26

straight and then when

39:28

the fog clears you

39:31

can see off all the things that

39:33

were done that were wrong that were deeply wrong

39:36

and it all looks much it

39:39

looks worse in retrospect the

39:42

at the time adjust it seem to be what was

39:44

called for at the moment and there were so many people

39:47

fired and treated unfairly for saying

39:50

and the most minimal

39:52

criticisms of the black lives matter

39:55

movement for example and

40:00

and where are we now i think were

40:02

certainly in a better place than we were then

40:04

vanessa saying much to

40:06

me the and you can see this

40:09

in the actual data

40:12

on google search terms for things

40:14

like white privilege or

40:16

any other term associated with

40:18

woke you'll

40:20

see the try line is like know mentions

40:23

until twenty fourteen the

40:25

bikes then twenty twenty

40:27

it goes way up and and cause

40:30

come down since then but we're still not

40:33

where we were even before the

40:35

the great opening though

40:39

the

40:41

the i mean i think it's gotten better in the past

40:43

two years but from and

40:45

a peak that was absolutely crazy

40:48

i mean yeah you know or

40:51

every business and near city was born

40:54

it up you know boarded

40:56

up several times from months

40:59

and

41:02

you had major media figures

41:04

and politicians saying

41:07

that that's okay it's

41:09

called for

41:10

the

41:12

so from that peak

41:15

of irrationality yeah

41:17

we gonna be better but

41:19

you know upon for showing about the whole thing you

41:21

just spoke about columbia

41:23

i know people who went to columbia i know

41:25

the grades at you needed to get into colombia i

41:28

know what it takes

41:29

the get into an ivy league education these are

41:31

the academically the brightest

41:34

and best and yet they just to ingest

41:36

this whole stuff without questioning

41:39

that interrogating it without thinking

41:41

for themselves

41:43

the have work you meant to be the smallest

41:47

surely dump does not mean that you go

41:49

the best mind in order to challenge these ideas

41:51

and find out the frozen the argument

41:53

in the logic

41:56

unfortunately i think that in

41:59

college this is not that correlated

42:02

correlated with your ability to

42:04

get to the truth about

42:06

something which is to say

42:10

tribalism is much more powerful

42:12

than intelligence like he

42:15

the they've done studies what

42:18

were they show this like you

42:20

show the person with a very high

42:22

i q that who is part

42:24

of said liberal an echo chamber and you give

42:26

them some facts about guns

42:29

and they will just come to the conclusion the

42:32

scripted that conclusion

42:35

the right wing i will come to the scripted right wing conclusion

42:39

know you know whatever level of i q are often

42:41

like the higher i q you are the

42:43

more you're just able to find reasons

42:45

why your party line the

42:47

right one

42:49

the

42:50

and again like you will you'll find the

42:53

million studies roland know have biden

42:55

and trump say the same sentence

42:58

and

42:59

democrats will disagree with it when trump said

43:01

it but agree with it when when biden says it

43:03

and and republicans will do the same

43:05

thing and

43:07

they will do that no matter how smart they are using

43:10

easier to sixteen hundred on as a t and it

43:12

doesn't actually make you less

43:14

likely to to have

43:16

partisan bias though

43:19

i'm in the sad truth is intelligence

43:22

is not that much of a

43:24

bulwark against

43:27

hardison buys you

43:29

, the how would seem to be the reality

43:32

of avoid going through it's so

43:35

look we've got the

43:38

going backwards in terms of mlk

43:40

dream as you say are really institutions

43:43

are pumping out soon so born

43:46

into a despite their intelligence as you

43:48

say again where's this going

43:53

i don't know that depends a lot on

43:55

the actions in the bravery

43:58

of millions of individuals

44:00

many of whom

44:02

will be watching this video

44:05

the

44:06

i mean what which is to say it depends

44:10

on the

44:14

every single person's ability to

44:17

stand up for

44:19

values and reason and

44:22

speaking up when it's

44:24

difficult

44:25

the

44:28

you know dinners there will

44:30

come a time where something

44:32

is happening in your workplace or

44:35

in your friend group in your marriage

44:39

where

44:41

he you know say something something is

44:43

going on as wrong ethically and that violates

44:45

your values but if you speak up about a you could

44:47

potentially pay a price big social

44:49

price and you

44:53

know there will com a crossroads and hopefully

44:55

you will find

44:57

that

44:58

listening to i'm

45:01

catholic church an amateur your my own conversations

45:03

with common or you know she can

45:05

give you the language to articulate

45:08

your points the point you want

45:10

to make to the relevant people in a way that

45:12

communicates your good face

45:14

but guess the point across the

45:17

more people do that the more people speak

45:19

up i

45:22

think them the more and better

45:24

this situation gets

45:26

so where we're going is is gonna depend

45:28

on a lot of people's the

45:31

ability to be brave

45:34

in the face of the

45:36

difficult situations

45:38

what do we do with institutions like columbia

45:40

very prestigious to

45:44

see of learning et cetera et cetera what

45:46

of but it's pumping out the students who

45:48

are just regurgitating this narrative

45:51

would would would we do a displaced

45:53

while we should support the professors and students

45:55

there that are committed to free speech and viewpoint

45:57

diversity and there are many the

46:01

the phenomenon were fighting here

46:03

is not that

46:07

you know it's not that fifty percent of students

46:11

hey free speech and diversity is that

46:14

five percent of students hated and

46:16

ninety five percent are terrified of them

46:19

and so is the institution

46:21

yeah

46:22

new petrified

46:24

the the point where

46:26

hearing you know you have the president of

46:28

of columbia university a free speech

46:30

collar legal under first

46:32

amendment scholar one of the foremost and

46:36

in his commencement speech this past year

46:39

he he

46:41

basically said i know i'm

46:43

a free speech scholar but i'm

46:45

actually gonna talk about how

46:48

there's a bit too much free speech misinformation

46:51

the is horrible and we really

46:53

should be censoring a lot of stuff so

47:00

so yeah any and listen you know if

47:02

he had said the opposite as if he hadn't gone up there and

47:04

give a full give a full throated defensive free speech

47:07

he would have been making his own life a living hell the

47:10

foreseeable future you know so there the

47:13

push back on a isn't that his job to

47:15

make his life a living hell

47:17

the now

47:18

the the role that he needs to play

47:21

the role he ought to play yes sir

47:23

role he ought to play though

47:26

your question what do we do we support organizations

47:29

like heterodox academy which

47:32

are the doing

47:34

good work to support viewpoint diversity

47:38

institutions of higher

47:40

learning

47:42

the end

47:43

the

47:44

maybe support in the more experimental

47:47

universities that are coming around ah

47:49

i don't know too much about him back and university of austin

47:52

yeah is a couple you

47:55

may know about that are trying to innovate

47:57

in the space of call

48:01

colleges here is a is a it

48:04

very difficult to innovate right like

48:07

you for kind of stuck with me incumbents

48:09

in

48:11

college space so i

48:13

support the experiments and support the people

48:15

fighting for viewpoint diversity and free speech

48:18

com let's talk about culture lumber because

48:20

i will token before we started about how

48:22

we had obtained you to meet one

48:24

of our big supporters in and one

48:26

of the point he made he was

48:28

some explain to us why he decided to support

48:31

our show over other very very good

48:33

people who did could work and in this era

48:35

and one of the things you said as culture

48:37

is really important at entertainment

48:40

is very important because in addition to doing

48:42

these interviews we also do like live

48:44

streams where we joke about the issues

48:46

of the day in day humorous and it's offensive

48:49

and all offensive that rats and he

48:51

was sort of making the point that the

48:53

the work on creating

48:56

a healthy a conversation around the all of his subjects

48:58

depends also on the entertainment

49:00

side of things and you are obviously musician how

49:03

how did those two things like of handy see the role

49:05

of of entertainment and culture entertainment this

49:07

conversation

49:09

yeah that's a good question i mean

49:11

so so i'm a trombonist and

49:13

a rapper and i've been releasing

49:15

music videos everly

49:18

stream his videos as you're the first one is called

49:20

blasphemy

49:21

and

49:23

in a song i kinda dealt

49:25

with some themes of free speech

49:28

and speaking

49:30

your mind and self censorship

49:33

and that

49:36

is interesting because i think the the

49:38

entertainment world is an

49:41

a bit of a pickle because it

49:44

isn't frankly the same situation that

49:46

that elite institutions in

49:48

gen our which is that

49:51

you know

49:52

five percent of people have

49:55

a kind of a veto on

49:58

any

50:00

any new netflix show any new

50:02

movie any

50:04

the

50:06

which is to say what the market actually was

50:08

is pretty much what the market is always wanted

50:11

the in a market doesn't really want

50:15

preachy woke music

50:18

or

50:20

movies or anything

50:22

that's proven over and over

50:24

again by what sells even even even

50:27

when the market once even

50:30

when you have rapper that really do come from like a racial

50:33

justice perspective like a kendrick lamar

50:36

the latest album he is

50:38

the whole thing is he is rejecting

50:40

being

50:42

the

50:44

sort own socially conscious

50:47

voice right you like i'm gonna tell you about all

50:50

the fucked up things about me and

50:52

i'm not gonna be your hero like

50:54

i'm i'm flawed i am you

50:57

know like i'm an asshole i'm

51:00

not your like

51:03

i'm not your a lot the intersection or hero you're looking

51:05

for that kind of what the

51:07

new album is and that

51:10

our economy a still doing extremely

51:12

well saying he is what he's saying

51:15

the

51:18

and and so i think what

51:21

i what i have to imagine is going on and lot

51:23

of like writers rooms for shows his

51:27

you have good writers that want

51:29

to

51:30

ignore woke and just

51:32

make a good tv show whatever that means

51:34

like like you whatever fear

51:36

was like two thousand eleven and

51:38

of the jokes are going to be offensive began be offensive

51:41

but good but but the can be funny and

51:43

then you have you have minority of people

51:47

in in those rooms that is saying

51:49

oh whoa you can say that that's

51:51

that's racist or sexist we

51:55

need

51:56

we need more

51:58

actors of collar

51:59

the scene or we need whatever

52:02

the even if it doesn't fit the story and

52:07

basically

52:10

what what you have to do so to decide between why

52:12

you just want to make a good show for his own sake or

52:15

you want to cave to a small

52:17

minority of people that have a lot

52:20

of cultural power right now make

52:23

your show less funny make it less engaging make it less

52:25

reliable in end

52:28

and i can but i think

52:30

the what is worth having a lot of people are doing

52:32

that if i do eg even a show like euphoria

52:34

for example wed

52:36

jan some people might say

52:38

like awoke show i don't think it is

52:41

is it happened to have a trans made main

52:43

character like name

52:47

they say the word retarded on that show

52:49

unapologetically they like there's

52:52

one scene where really

52:54

like talking about how

52:59

talking through praised

53:01

in a praiseworthy way about christians

53:04

like saying something

53:06

nice about in

53:09

any way that the over a hundred the show isn't

53:11

violate a lot of tenants of wilderness

53:14

and i actually think that's why it it's a popular

53:16

among jerseys cause the

53:19

ended a day people never want preachy art

53:21

whether that is pretty christian right

53:23

wing arts more moralist art

53:25

or preachy far last woke

53:28

art people one art that cops

53:31

into deep seems of human nature

53:34

and that goes as much

53:36

for for gens the as it

53:38

does the for

53:40

millennials and in

53:43

and boomers and stuff you know so

53:45

i think vivid

53:48

a good thing about the profit

53:50

motive is that you can't

53:52

really be successful as your ideological

53:56

he and i as an entertainer your idea

53:58

your ideology has to be the the retain at all

54:00

costs pretty much like to make a good

54:02

show a dot you know atlanta's another great

54:05

example

54:06

the

54:08

donald glover received a lot of backlash

54:11

from that from the woke over his reparations

54:13

themed episode where episode where

54:15

showed in this kind of black mirror ask

54:18

way what reparations might look like if

54:20

you if you actually had black people

54:22

tracing there the

54:24

ancestors back to like the

54:26

pacific like what

54:28

would that actually look like and when you see it you

54:31

can't help but think oh my god

54:33

this is a nightmare

54:35

like

54:36

and and so

54:39

no an episode of atlanta show that

54:41

and got a lot of backlash but

54:43

again and lances an extremely successful

54:45

shelves and who isn't nc woke either

54:47

necessarily sister orthogonal

54:50

to work at like ignores you he's charming

54:52

really interesting shows and

54:55

because of that he can't really be

54:58

married to any ideology

55:00

because it is a thing is that

55:02

right on shows the complexity

55:04

of life bright it shows and nuances

55:07

it shows how actually these

55:09

simplistic way of looking at the world

55:12

is it doesn't reflect light that's

55:14

why it doesn't work or remember watching

55:17

arm who do you think you are which is a british

55:19

programs will i take a celebrity and i look

55:21

back over there love it and

55:23

secretary their ancestry and they

55:26

are they had on this mixed race

55:28

woman former athlete and they look back

55:30

and it turns out note one of her great great

55:32

grandfather's who was blessed in the caribbean own

55:35

slaves at one point and

55:37

she was devastated i'm really upset

55:40

and to me that seemed really in congress because

55:42

it a school nothing to do with you you

55:45

know this idea that we have to look back

55:48

and somehow it by looking back

55:50

hundreds of years we're gonna be able to solve the

55:52

problems of now it

55:55

seems bizarre to me you

55:58

know it it doesn't seem to doesn't

55:59

the to fit in

56:01

i guess the problem is you

56:04

see we're ever going to get to a place

56:06

where we're going to stop talking about

56:09

are being whoa cool not would do

56:11

not i mean we didn't have these conversations

56:13

ten or fifteen years ago we just judge

56:15

to the on whether it was sent a moral or

56:17

film oh film will say it's or whatever it

56:19

may be by well as a person who made it was a paedophile

56:22

yeah exactly born

56:24

in so merits

56:26

yeah well we're entering an

56:28

age

56:29

a while

56:32

we're we're we're witnessing the birth of a new

56:34

major ideology clause

56:36

eve religion

56:38

and

56:40

the you think but you think we're just getting started

56:43

i don't know and now

56:45

the

56:47

it seems to have some staying power

56:49

and

56:52

in the nineteen fifties you know we've very

56:54

much did judge are by whether it was christian

56:56

or not that was a huge

56:59

deal and in in america at least the

57:03

and it was a huge

57:05

deal for entertainers because

57:07

they had

57:09

very clear ways in which they could violate

57:13

the the mandate that all art

57:15

must be christian and

57:17

must not offend think the christian

57:20

face

57:22

and comics rebelled against that

57:24

and the got punished for as socially

57:26

in the sixties

57:28

lenny bruce ah and

57:31

i think you know in or

57:33

maybe eighties and nineties and two thousands

57:36

the power of christianity waned

57:38

and the culture specially

57:41

in the in blue america

57:45

and there was some

57:48

political correctness stuff in the nineties

57:50

but it wasn't it

57:52

didn't really have staying power id

57:55

it was confined to certain elite spaces

57:59

the died in the two thousands

58:02

yeah i mean i don't remember having

58:04

too many conversations you

58:06

know even in like twenty ten i know remember having

58:08

to any conversation like was this movie welker

58:11

was an anti woke my was this

58:14

this episode transgressive

58:16

of like

58:18

oh like

58:19

the take cancelled for people

58:22

say that own like i have a cancelled take

58:25

to blame her own like this whatever

58:27

the slayer top gun was really good

58:30

like is that cancelled though

58:34

jaeger having a think we're going back into

58:36

an era where

58:39

there is a an

58:41

ideology that is very

58:44

important kind of the way christianity

58:47

was important the fifties

58:49

and

58:50

every individual

58:52

filmmaker musicians

58:55

song writer tv writer

58:59

artist will have to make

59:01

a decision whether

59:03

they want to and are willing

59:05

to violate certain doctrines

59:08

to make good art and some of them

59:10

are going to answer that nope isn't like

59:12

i'll i got a family

59:15

i'm not gonna do anything that rock the boat

59:18

the others are going to rock

59:20

the boat in all the right ways and i think they're

59:22

they'll be rewarded for it by

59:26

by the masses you

59:29

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, and websites over to easy

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of easy which tells you everything you

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need to know about technology front

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of a sheep in censorship home

1:00:32

and

1:00:33

on another know you did we can

1:00:35

ever truly separate off from the artist

1:00:37

we've seen you know a raft of

1:00:40

celebrities gray artists you

1:00:43

know behave accordingly

1:00:45

and abominably and people were saying you know we should

1:00:47

get rid of them we they should be taken

1:00:49

off spotify it's we shouldn't be listening

1:00:52

to them use it will me what he's done on this because

1:00:54

it's not as

1:00:55

the

1:00:56

that their own nuances to this argument

1:00:59

on

1:01:00

hum i don't know i think

1:01:04

i'm kind of a live and let live guy so if

1:01:06

you can't separate the art from the artist

1:01:08

and though he lives

1:01:10

in an artist yeah when

1:01:12

i can guarantee you i listen to michael

1:01:14

jackson all the time and i

1:01:17

i never think of

1:01:20

what he probably did to children

1:01:23

and i are like i never condone it more in

1:01:25

my head i didn't even occur to me which

1:01:28

is to say i can separate the

1:01:30

art from the bad parts of the artist

1:01:33

in in that case and if i couldn't than i would

1:01:35

just stop listening to the

1:01:37

get on my fucking life and then and i

1:01:39

wouldn't the man that other

1:01:41

people being just like me as

1:01:43

an insane and narcissistic

1:01:45

of going to the world

1:01:48

it wouldn't another thing that's interesting to

1:01:50

me and we're talking about it was a comedy

1:01:52

club promoter here in new york's

1:01:54

last night as someone like louis

1:01:57

ck and i'm and

1:01:59

i sort of awesome what were your take on that why

1:02:01

did you let him keep playing your comedy

1:02:03

club on and he was like well if

1:02:06

i had a bartender who got accused of something

1:02:09

no conviction and quarter i like i

1:02:11

wouldn't find them a union would never allow

1:02:13

you to fire someone because

1:02:15

they've been accused of something the

1:02:17

on other hand i also think do

1:02:19

think that think that situation where people

1:02:22

in are getting away with things the

1:02:25

way with trying to feel our way towards

1:02:28

having a bit like for example there

1:02:30

were parts of me too eager harvey weinstein

1:02:32

absolutely bag i'm glad that

1:02:34

happened isn't do norman

1:02:37

lay it's not so i

1:02:39

guess what i'm saying is do you

1:02:41

think there's some good tool of this to

1:02:43

like we're making progress on some things

1:02:45

while may be going too far in the process

1:02:48

or do you think this is all bad know the

1:02:50

me to move in was definitely partly good

1:02:52

the it was a

1:02:55

was shocking to many

1:02:57

people that a guy like harvey weinstein could

1:02:59

get away with when he was doing for that long

1:03:01

in the modern era i think a lot

1:03:03

of people thought that was a thing of the distant

1:03:06

past rather than to present and

1:03:09

it took it took that

1:03:11

much cultural power to

1:03:13

get to give people the courage to

1:03:17

come out and sit and and like fight

1:03:19

this guy who had so much power then

1:03:22

there were some others like that and then

1:03:24

inevitably inevitably as as it always

1:03:26

does it when it went way too far pretty

1:03:28

quickly and opportunity

1:03:31

came in

1:03:32

and

1:03:35

the dishonest people came

1:03:37

in to cash in on on the trend and

1:03:40

get their fifteen seconds of fame and and

1:03:43

as like i said as it always dozen times

1:03:45

of revolutionary frenzy people

1:03:48

suspend all the important principles

1:03:50

of due process and reason

1:03:53

and hearing both sides and

1:03:56

it all looks much worse in retrospect

1:03:58

than it does at the time right like

1:04:01

the

1:04:04

trending of a of a pretty

1:04:06

all louise a perfect example right

1:04:09

the

1:04:13

no

1:04:14

he's accused of something

1:04:17

that happened

1:04:19

many years ago

1:04:20

for he was famous

1:04:22

and no one wants to hear his side

1:04:24

of it like no one is interesting

1:04:27

hearing his side of it

1:04:28

and

1:04:30

i'm his side it's it's

1:04:32

really it

1:04:35

is what he was accused of doing was

1:04:39

would actually not that bad on

1:04:41

his telling and on on their telling

1:04:44

there was something catchy

1:04:46

about what he did right and is

1:04:48

the kind of thing we normal set normally settle in a court

1:04:50

of law is a crime is being alleged and

1:04:54

people go to prison on false

1:04:56

charges people appeal is a whole

1:04:59

the have a whole legal system set up precisely

1:05:01

because situations like this are so complicated

1:05:04

and so easy to run into his mistakes

1:05:07

but in the friendliness and the moment

1:05:10

people are like

1:05:12

like how grasshoppers become locusts

1:05:15

and seem like totally different

1:05:18

animals right when there's a revolutionary

1:05:20

frenzy going on human stop behaving

1:05:22

like humans we start behaving like locusts

1:05:24

and we just swarm and

1:05:27

bypass all of our our

1:05:29

better judgments

1:05:32

and

1:05:34

in retrospect it to look back and see how

1:05:36

how's it that people were so horrible

1:05:39

to him

1:05:40

the

1:05:42

but

1:05:43

again it's just how

1:05:46

we behave and in times of frenzy

1:05:50

the reason me to always made me feel uncomfortable

1:05:52

right from the start his allegations

1:05:55

yeah , was worried that i was gonna go to a

1:05:59

thankfully i'll go great lawyers coleman

1:06:02

yeah

1:06:08

i , called me that i can you go he looks like

1:06:10

he might might

1:06:12

got to get that sweaty white man energy now

1:06:15

a but know like is to

1:06:17

sun the moon you

1:06:19

have

1:06:21

a group of people the

1:06:24

feel that they can get justice

1:06:27

there's no checks there's no balances

1:06:30

there's no ability really for

1:06:32

the person accused this the come back and to

1:06:34

be listened to all of

1:06:36

a sudden you know getting justice will

1:06:38

this looks like and

1:06:41

national to say that there were people who are you

1:06:43

know like weinstein obviously awful

1:06:45

awful awful they

1:06:47

look like fury of revenge

1:06:50

when that happens revenge and justice the

1:06:53

two very different things yes

1:06:55

they are

1:06:57

and

1:06:59

the problem is that it becomes a bug

1:07:01

light for dishonest people

1:07:04

if you send out a signal to the whole world's

1:07:07

same okay normally would do the due

1:07:09

process we do due diligence on your

1:07:11

claims by

1:07:12

right now

1:07:14

starting now

1:07:15

we're going to suspend all of that

1:07:17

the lot of people out there that are going to say i

1:07:20

miss my chance this is my

1:07:22

chance and they're going to make something up

1:07:24

there going to exaggerate the truth of a situation

1:07:27

and you're basically sending out a

1:07:29

bat signal for a

1:07:31

shitty people that wanna ruin someone's life

1:07:34

and that is the inevitable

1:07:37

problem you run into when you

1:07:39

have even legitimate and good

1:07:42

the movements like me too if

1:07:44

he if you even tell people a people respond to

1:07:46

incentives and this is what the revolutionaries

1:07:49

never think about the never

1:07:52

think about or consider that

1:07:55

when you suspend rule

1:07:58

of due process you're going to

1:07:59

rocket inevitably you're going to attract

1:08:02

bad people

1:08:04

the their chance and

1:08:06

they never account for that human nature

1:08:09

always includes those bad motives

1:08:11

those those bad people will always be there

1:08:15

you make false accusations and

1:08:18

to seize the opportunity to

1:08:20

climb in social status as a result

1:08:22

of valuing victimhood

1:08:25

and

1:08:28

those very important in those moments too

1:08:31

right for the rules of due process

1:08:34

and all the principle

1:08:36

that has made

1:08:38

you know

1:08:41

western democracies

1:08:44

fairly decent places to live

1:08:47

relatively well then it isn't it was seat

1:08:50

the seat the is that philosophically

1:08:52

speaking the progressive ideology

1:08:54

doesn't believe in the existence of bad people

1:08:56

there are no by the people

1:08:58

in the progress of mindset there are people who have been

1:09:01

failed by the system that's why they're they're

1:09:03

behaving the way that they are but then i'm bad

1:09:05

than of human beings are prone to bad

1:09:07

behavior yeah what about straight white men

1:09:10

well they are imbued with whiteness

1:09:13

which has been taught to them

1:09:15

as an

1:09:16

the sound of course

1:09:18

they think they're bad people but

1:09:20

it's because the way they've been brought up and what

1:09:22

we need to do is under the whiteness

1:09:24

right that's the argument and

1:09:26

so i think that's where lot of the progress of mine

1:09:29

said a goes awry it's

1:09:31

based on the idea of the human beings are infinitely

1:09:34

perfectible the only reason human

1:09:36

beings on perfect as we haven't done

1:09:38

enough social engineering to give them

1:09:40

to that point that's right

1:09:42

that's right steven pinker his book about this was

1:09:44

an incredible and still

1:09:46

the best treatment of the subject that i

1:09:48

know of com the blank slate

1:09:51

modern denial of human nature this

1:09:53

is the belief

1:09:55

always popular among revolutionaries

1:09:57

of all areas

1:09:59

the

1:09:59

that

1:10:01

we are basically born with no

1:10:04

nature boring inherently good

1:10:06

the only made bad by society

1:10:10

i'm only made selfish by society

1:10:13

whereas my view of human beings

1:10:15

is that

1:10:17

we are a vault by evolution

1:10:20

the all have some degree of self

1:10:22

interest and

1:10:25

i'm and

1:10:27

we can never be made we

1:10:30

can never be made perfect we can never even make

1:10:32

be made close to perfect that there are always

1:10:35

be a subset of humans that want to be aggressive

1:10:37

and violent for it's own sake

1:10:40

how do you like one of the things that you

1:10:42

look into like ted bundy types

1:10:45

the new you always want to find

1:10:47

something in the background that explains

1:10:50

who they became the truth is

1:10:52

sometimes you find it the sometimes you don't know sometimes

1:10:55

people just are fucked up the fish

1:10:57

and and beyond that almost

1:11:00

everyone is imbued

1:11:03

with a kind of

1:11:05

the baseline self interest

1:11:08

the animals and just like dogs have

1:11:10

a nature humans have a nature and

1:11:15

a and it is tempting to believe that

1:11:17

because human our brains are malleable

1:11:19

and culture matters quite a lot was

1:11:21

all which is true that

1:11:23

we have completely

1:11:25

though

1:11:27

we've completely

1:11:29

cast aside any kind of

1:11:32

inherent nature

1:11:33

the true did yes human beings more than

1:11:35

any other animal were capable of

1:11:38

learning in a way of

1:11:40

being from our culture we learn we learn

1:11:42

from our culture we learn

1:11:45

everything and the hand signals we use of

1:11:47

when when we talk to like what kind of style

1:11:50

of dress we think is cool all of that is malleable

1:11:53

and can be learned and can and can change

1:11:56

over time but at

1:11:58

at the end of the day there's still

1:11:59

a core to was that

1:12:03

is given to us by

1:12:05

nature and that nature includes self interest

1:12:09

it precludes the possibility of

1:12:12

a system like communism working

1:12:14

on a large scale rain people

1:12:16

are always going to prefer their children

1:12:18

to other people's children their their biological

1:12:21

children for most part their biological

1:12:23

family and are going to privilege that

1:12:26

over the rest of the world and that's inherent it's

1:12:28

not going to change ever though

1:12:30

if you try to make our society like one

1:12:32

family you end up getting

1:12:34

disaster if you

1:12:37

if you're theory of criminal

1:12:39

behavior is that all of it is caused

1:12:41

by social start circumstances and poverty

1:12:44

the you think you can get rid of the police and address

1:12:46

crime by

1:12:48

we would like social programs

1:12:50

you're gonna you're gonna run into the fact that actually

1:12:52

some people commit crime because it's fun

1:12:56

because they can this

1:12:58

is one of the saying the one of the things

1:13:00

that really

1:13:02

grinded my gears about the twenty

1:13:04

twenty riots which is like okay

1:13:07

why are the riot happening

1:13:10

people say okay and pp blur george

1:13:13

lloyd racial injustice the

1:13:15

know center for okay

1:13:17

well

1:13:18

how come all the rioters

1:13:20

our young men

1:13:23

that's interesting or only young men

1:13:26

the ones that are

1:13:28

affected by racial injustice will know

1:13:31

how com older women aren't rioting

1:13:33

and are intact begging the

1:13:35

police to intervene on as that's interesting

1:13:38

or maybe they're doing it because riding is fun

1:13:41

and you've given them a temporary

1:13:43

past to do it

1:13:46

i think sometimes you will have to the

1:13:48

to go become like more in

1:13:50

touch with their inner teenager and remember

1:13:53

remember

1:13:54

how fun it was to just do like mischievous

1:13:56

shit for no reason

1:13:58

when you were like

1:13:59

sixteen that

1:14:03

it's is to me the are comes razor

1:14:05

explanations like

1:14:06

a lot of people would be whoop a there

1:14:08

are no consequences if if you

1:14:10

couldn't if you couldn't possibly go to prison

1:14:13

by doing it

1:14:14

how many people would just do that type shit

1:14:16

just because

1:14:17

i find it odd the yeah

1:14:20

is a a lot of fun go right mess something up

1:14:22

many young men have been doing this for

1:14:24

century for centuries

1:14:26

and and so i think

1:14:28

the as

1:14:31

some philosophers would say the explanation

1:14:33

dumb like the thing to be

1:14:35

explained is reversed right

1:14:38

people think you have to explain

1:14:41

why people are like the

1:14:45

crashing police car windows with bad

1:14:48

and to me i think before you have to explain

1:14:50

why they aren't doing it more often they're

1:14:52

doing it because it's fun no

1:14:55

and more importantly in that particular

1:14:57

cases you gave them gave them is you give him a pass

1:14:59

yeah there's a socially acceptable pass which

1:15:01

that a lot of people whoa for

1:15:04

the moment we're going to say it's noble violence

1:15:06

is noble it's justified by what was done

1:15:09

to george floyd and again you're sending

1:15:11

out the bat signal to all the people in the

1:15:13

world that wanna have fun anyway up

1:15:15

or it we got a couple months where we can do whatever we

1:15:17

want and let's take this bass

1:15:20

you know flew to store does it's

1:15:22

fun mood lewd a store of some like

1:15:25

poor poor like indian immigrant in

1:15:27

harlem that has nothing to do with this situation

1:15:30

and just destroy his life

1:15:32

the

1:15:34

and it's been great speaking with you again

1:15:37

about the stuff i don't

1:15:39

know what the fuck this guy wherever

1:15:42

it is ashleigh your voice is gonna be one of the

1:15:44

important voices in shaping that

1:15:46

conversation oh thank you for

1:15:49

so were glad you've taken the time to

1:15:51

time to that on here with us we're in a preset

1:15:53

has been real pleasure to meet you like was

1:15:55

in person as last question

1:15:57

as you know the wheel was asked before we are scott what

1:16:00

questions for locals the only they will get

1:16:02

to see a is what's the one

1:16:04

thing we're not talking about as a society

1:16:06

the when really should be

1:16:10

it's a good question

1:16:16

so i have been a little with thinking about

1:16:18

this question

1:16:20

birth rate

1:16:21

global birthrates declining and all

1:16:24

developed nations and

1:16:26

elon musk has been talking about this recently

1:16:28

so i do think we have been talking about it months

1:16:31

prior to him and

1:16:33

also someone like matthew yglesias in

1:16:35

, book one million americans dot talks about

1:16:37

this she's just it

1:16:39

seems to be close to a law

1:16:42

the

1:16:44

than

1:16:46

i don't know what you'd call it developmental economics

1:16:49

or what

1:16:51

have you that the society's

1:16:53

become wealthier and more educated people

1:16:55

stop having enough children to replace

1:16:57

their numbers naturally

1:17:00

the

1:17:02

and you see it in pretty pretty much everywhere

1:17:04

on earth and the only places you don't

1:17:06

see it

1:17:08

are either

1:17:09

the side is that are that haven't become

1:17:12

wealthy yet

1:17:14

the war

1:17:15

the highly religious the ultra

1:17:18

ultra orthodox jews d

1:17:21

the amish men and mennonites

1:17:24

the

1:17:25

you know that the amish in america more than doubled

1:17:27

their numbers in since the nineties

1:17:30

which is incredible right well although

1:17:33

rest of america has receded

1:17:35

below replacement level

1:17:38

and and what happens we don't use condoms

1:17:40

my bit more happens when you don't have entertainment

1:17:42

my dear what

1:17:45

, he gonna do yeah but

1:17:47

it's interesting to think about the think about

1:17:49

term

1:17:51

the future of humanity right like if everyone

1:17:53

did what we want to happen is that poor

1:17:56

countries

1:17:57

that being poor poor countries

1:18:00

we want that to happen so let's say that happens

1:18:02

and everywhere on earth hours or players below

1:18:04

replacement level

1:18:06

except for

1:18:08

the ultra religious

1:18:10

minorities that are doubling their

1:18:12

numbers every

1:18:13

and years what a great retina flattered either

1:18:16

world the interesting to think about

1:18:18

what world that creates

1:18:21

really want maybe have a son might not have

1:18:23

if i maybe it's not a big problem maybe it's it's such

1:18:25

a slow moving emergency that

1:18:27

the equilibrium will shift and you

1:18:30

know it's kind of not something to worry about

1:18:32

but the

1:18:34

maybe ah

1:18:36

maybe it changes the fundamental fabric

1:18:39

of society you

1:18:41

have like forty

1:18:44

percent of america is omniscient like the or three

1:18:46

thousand or something if america still exist

1:18:48

anyway but i am i on that that's something to

1:18:51

the i think more people should be thinking

1:18:54

about

1:18:55

common has been an absolute pleasure

1:18:57

is a waste if people want to find you on line

1:18:59

of people to discover your work wasn't best way

1:19:01

to do that listen to my podcast

1:19:04

conversations with coleman

1:19:06

a check out my music cold

1:19:08

man spelled c o l d x m

1:19:10

a and the excess silent i have three music

1:19:13

videos out the latest one is with neil degrasse

1:19:15

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1:19:17

you can listen to my music wherever you listen to music

1:19:19

watch my videos on youtube and

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follow me on twitter at cold x

1:19:24

men

1:19:25

com he thanks so much for coming on and thank

1:19:27

you guys for watching and listening will

1:19:29

see very soon we'll have a brilliant episode

1:19:31

like this one or or so and of course

1:19:34

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1:19:49

soon guys

1:19:53

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