0:00

bridgestone tires strolled into

0:02

midas and if you roll in, we've

0:04

got an exclusive deal for you get

0:06

$70 back and bridgestone rebates

0:09

plus a $50 reward card with paid

0:11

installation tires at its dot com

0:15

your your capacity to

0:18

be offended is

0:20

not something that need

0:23

or should respect in

0:25

you he

0:26

was calling for twitter to shut

0:28

down trump's account and it was happy

0:30

that it has , very different

0:32

positions of pretty much everybody else

0:35

why did you take up his sleeve university

0:37

as a story story worse

0:39

than anything with abuse in who in

0:43

that such as a conspiracy left

0:45

wing conspiracy to deny the

0:47

presidency have absolutely

0:50

it was absolutely but i think osborne's

0:52

the from can't do that are

0:54

you gonna be mad most

0:58

people in , society

1:01

even if they're nominally religious really

1:03

are struggling to to find

1:05

meaning in in their day to day of of when

1:07

you look at just the the hour by hour increments

1:10

and which life as doled out as

1:12

years passed out of deep sleeper

1:15

or enough enough

1:18

of of dreams in a when the alarm

1:20

goes off in the morning and

1:24

how do you feel about your life and what is

1:26

going to give you moral

1:28

urgency and meaning millions

1:30

, moral of people found it a specific

1:33

moments in recent history

1:35

like swords floyd killing

1:37

was has one of those moments where so

1:40

often enough is enough this those

1:42

my religion

1:52

this you know the you can also guess

1:55

your questions that thrive when

1:57

you join our local communities not

1:59

only

1:59

well you know who whereabouts interview you

2:02

have the opportunity to asked them to your

2:04

questions you have the chance asked

2:07

jordan peterson the cofounder of

2:09

extinction rebellion nigel farage

2:11

douglas murray andrew doyle's

2:13

yes no called simon evans larry elder

2:16

to save it for deal andrew sullivan

2:18

megyn kelly's julia hartley brewer

2:20

lord nigel lawson bret weinstein

2:23

in i have full hour in a man doctor david

2:25

not to me door

2:26

yeah sad flair wife melissa

2:29

chance trevor phillips i am

2:31

hirsi ali

2:32

glenn lowery bridges as

2:34

a cgm record call benjamin

2:36

and so many more plus were

2:39

bouncer interview some of the three

2:41

discuss in the world

2:43

we call name them tissue trust

2:46

me this you barkley

2:49

speaking not just because they're americans

2:52

are locals gives you access to a great

2:54

community of like minded people for

2:56

you can share mean

2:57

then make new and problematic

2:59

friend you also get early access

3:01

to live shows and whereabouts early these

3:03

cells [unk] voss whole so you'll want to

3:05

know about that as well on , higher

3:08

tiers you get monthly support tickles and

3:10

the opportunity to have a meal or a whole

3:12

with us click the link below will

3:15

go to trigonometry told

3:17

locals don't com and

3:19

join the community that trigonometry

3:22

dot local dot com will see

3:24

the hello

3:26

and welcome to a very special

3:28

episode of trigonometry

3:30

one the road from the us

3:33

san francisco's on constance in

3:35

kissing this is show you if

3:37

you want conversations with,

3:40

fascinating people of britain,

3:43

guess today is a a neuroscientist philosophy,

3:45

but and one of america's and

3:46

the world's most prominent public intellectual

3:49

sam harris welcome to trigonometry thanks

3:51

guys in a great beer it is great to

3:53

have the on the south we mentioned the

3:55

usually when we saw the show we ask our guests

3:57

introduce themselves your well known

3:59

and

3:59

the you don't need to do that but what we did

4:02

want to talk to by which is what we've been asking a lot

4:04

of our guest on the strip in the us is

4:06

how are you who you are or because you've

4:09

done things that most people wouldn't do

4:11

of wouldn't want to do would be scared to do calling

4:13

out some ideologies the people are afraid

4:15

to call outs that takes courage

4:18

but it also takes determination that takes

4:20

something why do you have that something

4:22

how did you get it

4:25

it's a hard question as roma i think there

4:28

is one algorithm

4:30

i'm running more than

4:32

most witches

4:35

what i would call intellectual honesty right

4:38

and and and so you're that the burden is not

4:40

to be who you were yesterday

4:43

the burden isn't to join some tribes

4:46

who who you're you'll get social

4:49

reinforcement from for and you know conforming

4:51

to

4:52

the

4:54

though

4:56

and so far as i'm continually just

4:58

trying to figure out what's true

5:00

and was consistent with what i claimed was true

5:02

five minutes ago or five years ago

5:05

the that causes me to just

5:08

bump up against do taboos

5:10

and and blasphemy is an

5:12

ideology is that that

5:15

are more rigid than that right

5:17

a major is it made really it's it's

5:19

i mean even having an identity

5:22

itself is too much

5:24

and now it's like a that you not only can you not

5:26

really conform to a tribe

5:29

you can't really even conform

5:31

the who you were yesterday

5:33

yes your your your master

5:35

value is to be honest and rigorous

5:38

and available to new data

5:40

new arguments and and

5:42

new insights that's a very good

5:44

answer but doesn't answer my question which is how

5:46

did you become that way why are you the i have no

5:48

idea i just my like that was my

5:51

in a factory settings and so from

5:53

very early age

5:55

the

5:56

yeah i guess i showed up as a

5:59

skeptics on many fronts

6:02

or mouse of certainly an argumentative

6:04

the teenager who know that and i live

6:07

in my idea so the

6:09

, that was i was really some

6:12

kind of default and that

6:14

part really hasn't changed

6:16

i don't think i pick my battles better now than

6:18

i used to a me i could use enough i

6:21

could turn any dinner party into a knock

6:23

down drag out debate about the most fundamental

6:26

issues anyone could

6:28

summon and it and it i

6:30

the

6:31

as i get older

6:33

pick my battles more

6:37

that's because i i said the hassle factor

6:40

of touching certain topics in certain ways

6:42

has has become more selling it for me because i

6:44

the twitter wasn't that was the real teaching

6:46

tool for me like i i just

6:48

you know that on the platform as everyone

6:51

did not , aware

6:53

that i was in rolling myself into a psychological

6:55

experiment to which no one had consented

6:57

and and he comes as

6:59

yet unforeseen and

7:02

the

7:03

yeah i just let loose

7:05

at loose at with a on various

7:08

topics and i would you know when i would see some malefactor

7:10

there who was treating mayor other

7:12

people badly more than i had to deal with

7:14

that right then and there have been and

7:18

it's just that the the hassle

7:20

factor

7:21

dealing with the

7:24

the toxicity of it and all

7:26

also just the

7:28

the i'm

7:30

convinced now that i had bottom it's a misrepresentation

7:32

of humanity raise it doesn't seem like a mere

7:34

does he dealing with what someone wrote there

7:37

is not does not in error but

7:39

you're not getting the whole person you're

7:42

getting i am a

7:45

part of them that has been amplified by the

7:48

the frame and into which the conversation

7:50

has been point in a frame has certain

7:52

features that are not helpful

7:55

guide conversations and anonymity is

7:57

got interrupted scouts tastelessness

7:59

scott the a perform

8:01

and of ass back you're doing in front of your crowd

8:04

or some possible crowd or so

8:06

it just it was disastrous for intellectual

8:08

honesty and honesty the

8:11

compassion and

8:13

the

8:15

no theory of mind under actually understand

8:17

taken into account of the extra moment to

8:19

understand where the other person's coming from

8:22

and so as he that there's no principle of

8:24

charities and just the it is really disastrous

8:27

machine for as into manufacturing

8:29

discord

8:30

we had a guest on the show called richard

8:32

grand who made the point that would it does is reduces

8:35

everyone's when avatar

8:38

so if everyone's an avatar what does it matter

8:40

if you attack the miss you gray

8:42

humanize them as you misrepresent

8:45

them because the game is to win right

8:47

is not so i actually have a discussion is

8:49

destroying ultimately to win

8:51

yeah was especially if you're not

8:54

if you're public purse and dealing with people who

8:56

are not public people right because

8:58

they then there's really the is me than it's just a single

9:00

shot the you know lottery

9:03

is not a that there's no ongoing

9:06

future of collaboration or cooperation

9:09

that is is been maintained even

9:12

bag when you have to public people who

9:15

you , or who know both know

9:17

they're going to to each other and realize

9:19

at some point still the the the wheels

9:21

come off rather often too

9:23

surprising degree but

9:26

the a sister

9:29

he is a in the end i think

9:31

it's bad technology which is is is still

9:33

somewhat inscrutable because it seems like it

9:35

should be good and in in and in some ways it

9:37

is good because you're seeing you know

9:39

his ears your seen a lot of smart people

9:42

tell you what the most interest

9:44

them and most worries them on a daily basis

9:47

and in ascending you articles and and

9:49

videos that you and and ss why am i a spy

9:51

can't break my connection to it because i'm

9:53

following so many smart people who are curated

9:56

for me and information diet that i still appreciate

10:00

and then i you know occasionally put my own stuff out

10:02

there just says i got kind of a marketing channel

10:04

but i've i'm doing much less

10:07

in the weeds back and forth with seen

10:09

even public people who i notice

10:12

in , poke me on poke me

10:14

given issue or whatever so

10:16

some

10:17

no go do not have a little store

10:19

in your head when you go to tackle

10:21

these very contentious subjects

10:24

and you know that you're gonna get push button you

10:26

know that you're gonna get flat you know that you're going to get

10:28

misrepresented you know

10:31

thing i really should be doing this

10:33

or what goes through your

10:35

mind before you go out and you made your point

10:39

well again i i i

10:41

think about it more than i used

10:43

to now i'm i used to i used to do it

10:46

very with it as if you're basically

10:48

there was no friction in the system imagine

10:50

was like okay this is like that that

10:53

cartoon meme you know somebody on the

10:55

internet is wrong about something other areas

10:58

i was i guy on twitter and

11:01

the

11:03

for not that guy anymore and i really do

11:06

take my moments and

11:09

there's a cost of that because as the and that you

11:11

you decide to set certain

11:13

at the moment you know cultural moments that

11:15

you sit on the sidelines and i'm

11:22

if i guess i guess i could just distiller

11:24

to have to a lesson here is a gay or

11:26

not

11:28

you don't you don't always need to have an opinion

11:30

about everything racing on always need have a

11:32

strong opinion about everything and

11:35

even if you do have do have opinion

11:37

you don't always have to be the person expressing

11:39

that opinion because very

11:42

likely someone else will write and

11:44

the in a given given those adjustments

11:46

to the the machine a

11:49

you can there's decide

11:51

if is this do i really want to spend the next

11:54

twenty four hours dealing with the aftermath

11:57

of this thing that i'm tempted to tweet

12:00

what to say in some other formats a

12:02

a particular it it it relates

12:04

to the likelihood

12:06

that certain personalities are gonna

12:08

go berserk and then with certain people it's is

12:10

yours is guaranteed that they're going he goes berserk

12:13

so i do i owe yet here's this this

12:16

odious ah opinion

12:18

expressed by a semi

12:20

odious person really

12:22

deserves to hear what i think

12:24

right now

12:26

is it worth the you know this wacky

12:28

that hornet's nest and then dealing with the

12:31

dealing with and been seem to deal

12:33

with

12:34

or to know or to not deal with end of may maybe

12:36

what are you can't deal with the aftermath

12:38

there are some , talked

12:40

about tribalism in the beginning let's something that

12:42

francis and i both the of feel very strongly

12:45

is contributing to much of the divisiveness

12:48

and the way things are going and lox that

12:51

the clay of the shows called trigonometry we once

12:53

explored difficult subject the no

12:55

question that neither him or i awoke

12:57

in the in the concerned opposing that

12:59

ideology has been a big part of what we do but

13:02

the tribalism is that is a is a different

13:04

thing we don't want to be in the and he woke

13:06

try bulgaria try breath and

13:09

the was and the around twenty

13:11

fifteen twenty sixty and very small

13:13

tribe a very smart people are

13:15

which was referred to as the intellectual dark web

13:18

which i remember that time we want doing this would

13:20

just to comedians i remember watching you guys

13:23

have those conversations on paying inspired

13:25

by people i don't think you guys have dances

13:27

but you had the right questions you did have

13:29

the right questions and then over time

13:32

we watched that loose tribal

13:34

very bright people as lose tribes

13:36

of very bright people are we to crumble

13:38

disintegrate rollouts your

13:41

mood happened

13:42

but the first thing and happen is that it was actually

13:46

for some of us more than others

13:47

the tongue in cheek

13:49

label for a tribe it really

13:51

wasn't a none of us are tribal

13:53

people

13:54

really is a a herding cats sort

13:56

of situation and

13:59

i lie savio is a eric weinstein

14:02

coinage which i launched on up a

14:04

podcast we did

14:06

and

14:08

i think an eye contact side i telegraph

14:10

that i thought it was tongue in cheek amazing he probably thought

14:12

it was more in earnest than than i did

14:15

he was always more attached to the label

14:17

the

14:19

and in very quickly they were people who

14:22

sort of join this this

14:24

collection or , were

14:26

said to be in and who's and some of whom i had

14:28

never heard of at that point who up

14:31

you know on a just a little bit of analysis

14:35

reveal themselves to be people who i

14:37

i really don't agree with not not

14:39

just saw on the actual substance of specific

14:41

opinions just just , methodology

14:44

by which they would generate opinions

14:46

or their lack of methodology so

14:50

you know i'm not inclined to name names but there are people

14:52

who

14:54

this is just wrong the saints

14:56

who eat a woo they

14:59

were ever moving in the same lane i was in

15:01

at that point when we were all called id w

15:03

people

15:05

i think the biggest force of fragmentation

15:07

was

15:09

rum and would

15:12

certain people did or didn't do with

15:14

that phenomenon you know and this

15:16

is what i was gonna ask i'd say there were two things

15:18

of fractured her from that looking for making

15:20

from hell with later but right front trump

15:23

was the so let's start with trump the i want to talk

15:25

about covered as although if we thought would trump you

15:27

took it a different view to almost

15:30

everybody i would say in what was described

15:32

as i did w in in the sense that

15:34

you were i think he was

15:36

calling for twitter to shut down trump's accounts

15:39

and it was happy that it happened yet

15:42

that's yet that's different position to pretty

15:44

much everybody else why did you take that plus

15:47

for two reasons why i visited

15:49

the non

15:52

the generic reason is

15:55

this is something i've never gotten a clear answer

15:57

on from any the people who take took the different side

15:59

of

15:59

the many

16:03

many people are ostensibly libertarians

16:05

are at least in a quasi libertarians of if

16:07

they they want a something like a minimum

16:10

of state

16:11

coercion and and control

16:13

they don't want to say a proliferation of laws

16:16

cgm just to to make

16:18

our lives more difficult and

16:20

as far as an orientation you know though i am

16:23

i consider myself a liberal and

16:26

have always voted as a democrat i'm in the until

16:28

until that would this work

16:31

apocalypse a and i i would certainly com

16:33

as of a democrat without much self consciousness

16:35

the

16:37

in i've i've always had a libertarian

16:41

underpinning to my to my

16:43

which is

16:45

the private sector can handle it is probably best

16:47

done their around me just given the level of in

16:49

efficiency and and a poorly

16:51

for the wind incentives you get in a government

16:54

bureaucracy and

16:56

he's milan as people

16:58

should be should have the right to be left alone

17:00

in also as like it's unless somebody is harming

17:03

people or

17:05

the

17:06

you know guilty of fraud you know via the

17:08

i saft for you know stealing

17:11

from people we

17:14

don't need a government involved and the

17:17

yeah my general framework

17:19

and many people sensible

17:22

him in this group ostensibly agreed with that

17:27

so when i look at twitter

17:29

twitter is a company that

17:31

and decide to a mad

17:33

as someone who has started erupted information

17:36

based companies at this point i'm

17:38

just thinking about what about what what's the scenario

17:41

under which i would want the government to

17:43

force me they

17:45

have alex jones on my podcast or

17:47

have donald trump on my podcast should not be able have

17:49

any one i want to my bike as is it conceivable

17:52

that my podcast could grow so big

17:55

or that might you know that any other plaza in up

17:57

in was considered training social media

17:59

platform right new if i could grow so

18:01

big that suddenly the government

18:03

would have an interest in forcing me

18:06

the have people on it

18:08

who for whatever reason i

18:10

object to having on am a saw this is this is

18:12

some ways away in which i am

18:14

the more extreme than than most people on

18:16

the last like i i do think at this point

18:19

in history

18:20

you should be able to have a social

18:23

media platform and exclude

18:25

any specific group he wants interested

18:28

as the way we do it right and

18:31

if you don't like a boycott us right so i got

18:33

i wouldn't have said this in nineteen sixty four when we're

18:35

halfway we have to pass a civil rights act this

18:38

point i think you should have the right to

18:40

be an asshole

18:43

who destroys your reputation and and suffers

18:46

of the the penalties in in

18:48

in the marketplace of ideas rights

18:50

so i think it is he wanted to have a social media network

18:53

for beautiful people right or people are

18:55

you guys are over sixty two and blond

18:57

hair blue eyes rights you know i can't get

18:59

on you should feel free to

19:02

raise money for that enterprise launch

19:04

it and i'll be in or i'll laugh

19:06

when it fails rights to like that this

19:09

now

19:09

under some

19:11

this rule that kind of thing to

19:13

be in a ears are should be illegal you

19:15

know if you're if you're just a normal the

19:18

person now on the last but

19:21

i don't think i think of this moment in history shouldn't

19:24

be but any case i just why look at

19:26

twitter as the accompany

19:28

that as a term as terms

19:30

of service which people like alex jones

19:33

and trump clearly violated me at what your whether

19:35

they in fact violated and

19:38

you service as written i think

19:40

they violated any coherent

19:43

terms of service that twitter should have had read like

19:45

you like you

19:46

knowing leave the able to turn

19:48

your mob

19:50

on a private citizen

19:52

and ruin their lives lives through

19:54

dawson right which is what jones and trump

19:56

were doing it again and again and

19:58

again people every time jones

20:01

was doing it with the sandy hook parents are you literally

20:03

have

20:04

the some you can place in two very different people

20:06

i mean alex jones does not belong in this conversation

20:08

your i'm not interested and know a guy like that but i

20:11

would dispute that i think trump is essentially

20:13

we got alex jones as president of united

20:15

states i don't think a very different people

20:17

i think that is the same phenomenon how much in

20:19

my world because it's just old the level

20:22

of of misinformation disinformation

20:24

line the charlatan

20:26

isn't that the is the the conscious

20:28

fraudulent of everything as

20:30

scale

20:31

the targeting of individuals

20:34

with with with known consequences

20:36

for like like trump every time trump

20:39

singles out a specific

20:41

that isn't

20:42

there's look at this jackass

20:44

who's few trying to wear whatever

20:46

whatever though the claim would be

20:49

that is a human sacrifice

20:52

we know that person's life

20:54

is just never the same again

20:56

because he's turned tens of

20:58

millions of moron on that person

21:01

and innovative vicious more

21:03

ons on i mean like that live in that's that that's the

21:05

core the

21:07

trump phenomenon as it is

21:10

now and has been for many years of really

21:12

since the beginning

21:14

as he you know certainly since he he

21:16

became the front runner and and certainly since he became

21:18

elected and twenty sixteen

21:21

the personality cult i mean it has all

21:23

the dynamics of a personality cult these are not

21:25

reasoning a yes there are some there if you calculated

21:28

people like peter thiel on the margins

21:31

who have some story as to why they would

21:33

back him rights but the core

21:35

of the calls you know which is all be

21:37

the nested with key went on and and

21:40

and of conspiracy thinking

21:42

and the big lie and you

21:44

know is if it's trump can do no wrong right

21:47

his

21:48

that is so it's

21:50

it made it as a venn diagram is just

21:52

it overlaps eighty

21:55

percent without the alex jones phenomenon

21:57

so i just i see them as the same problem i

21:59

see it

21:59

these are these are

22:02

you know if they're not guy actually clinical

22:05

clinically diagnosed herbalist

22:07

psycho pass their pass their best thing these

22:09

are people who are so

22:12

malignant li selfish and

22:14

so careless with respect to

22:16

the consequences of their actions in the lives

22:18

of others that if you if

22:20

you are right if you own a platform

22:23

or you are you know it's your overseen

22:25

a publicly up a publicly company that

22:28

owns company platform

22:29

why

22:32

should the government force you to keep these

22:35

people aren't really what are you should be free

22:37

to say sorry you know not on my watch

22:39

are you going to be having these consequences

22:42

it and would would trump it was a bit after january

22:44

six that was just and that's when it happened i

22:46

thought it happened a year too late by

22:49

amoeba january six finally convinced

22:51

dorsey he should kick from boston

22:53

that mean if that's not going to convince you that

22:55

you know we have that we we had a but at that point we

22:57

had a sitting president who

23:00

for months and months and months and it's

23:02

been a release six or eight months

23:04

innocently months prior to the november

23:07

election would

23:09

not commit to a peaceful transfer power

23:11

then he did

23:14

you know certainly something it'd

23:16

be whether it was everything in his power or just

23:18

a lot he managed

23:21

to see that we did not have a peaceful transfer

23:23

about right and then you

23:25

know so the who's a what's that what's the mob

23:27

gonna do on january seventh and eighth and ninth

23:30

you know to just leave trump on

23:32

the platform either i mean i just thought it

23:34

was it very simple

23:36

decision to kick him off and and

23:38

is it you t totally analogous

23:40

to the alex jones decision may out shows

23:42

is just less consequential but

23:46

minute let their sandy hook parents who

23:48

have had to move ten times

23:51

is their kids were murdered

23:53

the on alex jones

23:55

right and it's and it's all conscious it's obvious

23:57

what it's all it's he could see the consequences

23:59

of that the real time satellite

24:01

he woke up after five

24:04

years and thought oh my god i can't believe

24:06

that in our lives totally inadvertent i released

24:08

a podcast and then it does

24:11

it had this totally unforeseeable consequence

24:13

in the lives of it is grieving

24:15

parents no no he monetize

24:18

their misery when

24:20

did just a blizzard of lies the

24:23

and i rarely get on does it for me a different

24:25

case that i know what i say trump i'm in trump

24:27

is just i hear what you say he got in your

24:29

mind that they're similar my dog the reputation

24:32

washing of having successfully be compressed

24:35

you know he's alex jones okay

24:38

a francaise before you you move us into corvid

24:40

let me try from a different angle sandra because i

24:42

want to explore this intellectual point i do

24:45

you really want to live in a country where

24:48

you have a digital public square which in my opinion

24:50

twitterers we can disagree about that if you want

24:52

but that's my opinion the digital public

24:54

square and you have you have

24:57

that has clearly one sided enforcement

24:59

i i hear what you're saying by

25:01

jill the legitimizing the electoral process

25:04

the trumpeted for and i was concerned

25:06

about that i think you can use in

25:08

the system and that way when

25:10

you see the she gets

25:13

banned and then a story about hunter

25:15

biden gets banned that

25:17

under the guise of a being russian disinformation

25:19

we later learned wasn't russian disinformation

25:22

that's a lot of people seems like i

25:24

said i when we were talking to joe rogan it's putting

25:27

your hand on the scales fear in favor

25:29

of one side in the digital

25:31

public square you add that to

25:33

the banning of trump and lots

25:35

of other people being banned from one

25:37

side predominantly read

25:40

is that is that the world you

25:42

wanna live in where one team gets to just

25:44

ban people who disagrees with off the platform

25:46

it gets to pretend that things that

25:48

are true or not true he gets to shut down

25:50

the sharing of information with people

25:53

who want to make their own democratic choice

25:56

this is a hard question and thereof

25:59

this is have a question individually are like

26:01

one hunter biden laptop story

26:03

is something that still

26:05

don't have a

26:07

full opinion

26:10

about i'd actually don't know what we should have

26:12

done about that i'm as i say i see

26:14

the reason i see both sides of of like

26:16

i can argue either side of it's that the

26:18

sun is out what was leave that t society

26:21

the bias on the platform of so he is

26:23

either twitter is a company they

26:26

can do what it wants right it can

26:28

have it's own terms of service it can change

26:30

its policies they can they

26:32

can change in our can decided that you

26:34

know it can have can point of view or not

26:36

right

26:37

the war

26:38

we have to sees it as some

26:40

kind of crucial

26:43

piece of public infrastructure there

26:45

has to able to do not like that it in terms

26:48

of piece of public interest i think i think people

26:50

who are addicted to twitter seal

26:52

and arrive at

26:54

most you know and know and think it's you know i don't

26:56

think it should should be it

27:01

is odd to say that it's just so it's a

27:03

for small is just mean facebook

27:05

is much much much bigger raise just that

27:07

we have a lot of smart people journalists

27:09

ah , political

27:12

people focus concentrated people focus

27:14

to twitter moves the the conversation

27:16

more than facebook does but it's it's

27:19

it's scale of as much smaller

27:22

i

27:24

know i just feel like

27:27

people to start their own companies which they have

27:29

rights and against our competitors a twin of the many

27:31

people who deal twitter is not is is still

27:34

a failing business right as like is not

27:37

it doesn't work really am and facebook

27:39

is is a much better business

27:41

the

27:44

the nothing stopping facebook from

27:46

becoming stickier for

27:48

intellectuals and journalists and and

27:50

incident is attracting

27:52

more the conversation over there i

27:56

don't know is it is isn't extreme move

27:58

to say

28:00

you

28:01

the

28:02

you can't

28:04

you can't be biased right like who's

28:06

who's gonna say that the behind behind the scene

28:09

of that is a law in

28:11

the end there and therefore

28:13

it's a gun therefore is it's jail

28:15

time for the person who wants to keep breaking

28:17

the law i think just imagine imagine

28:19

twitter the twitter board if i were you

28:22

everyone gets what they want you know everyone who's everyone

28:24

who's this opinion guess when they won't use we're

28:27

going to win a commander the and and

28:29

and in for something like

28:33

a zero by a state and twitter

28:35

insofar as as possible and

28:37

if if the employees and the board

28:39

to say sorry we we have a point of

28:41

view we want we want to have we

28:44

we don't like these people and we like these people

28:46

the

28:48

what is now you just break up the company

28:50

you to say it dot you know a minute i

28:52

thought why i thought i should have happened with twitters

28:54

i thought jack dorsey should deleted

28:57

the mail you're literally thought he should would have got the nobel

29:00

peace prize this is an america has

29:02

added a point or leaders rights

29:05

the

29:07

the

29:08

yeah i don't so

29:09

his were should there should they be forced

29:12

to be impartial

29:13

i'm very skeptical that of that

29:16

should they be cajoled by

29:18

unhappy people like yourselves

29:21

or likely oh that

29:23

the

29:24

the trump fans to one

29:27

now or argument yeah i'm i'm se so

29:30

yeah yes i think

29:31

if

29:33

they were going to be employees the

29:35

first to admit as it may be impossible

29:38

to do this impeccably race like a psych the

29:40

in until we have perfect artificial

29:42

intelligence is just gonna be impossible

29:45

to be

29:46

truly consistent with your terms of service

29:48

because

29:50

you're always going to be able to find example

29:52

of the saying that was not appropriately

29:54

moderated yeah but if

29:56

we all know that it's that laptop with donald

29:58

trump junior this will batteries

30:01

are done that's all i'm asking area or

30:03

have zip a desert so let's take that

30:05

these

30:08

i think it was totally appropriate

30:10

the viewed from

30:14

the a

30:15

the existing in aid in aid to

30:18

domain that was orthogonal

30:20

to partisan politics ice my

30:22

criticism of trump is totally

30:24

non partisan right there is absent

30:26

there's literally nothing

30:28

i say about trump

30:30

that i can say about any other republican right

30:32

and i think lose cheney is a total hero right

30:35

so that's so and i don't agree with her politics

30:37

at all or like liz cheney is a religious

30:40

maniacs by my lights right and

30:43

in in that sense

30:46

a terrifying political figure like i

30:48

like site like the the old me who was

30:50

just worried about the are christian theocracy and

30:52

in the united states would

30:55

have just revolted

30:58

at everything she would say attempt

31:00

implement as a politician this

31:04

moment she's you know

31:06

is she has no bigger fan than

31:08

me because of how

31:10

she's dealing with the trump's and online the trump phenomenon

31:12

is not a matter of political partisanship

31:15

here's a he is just a sweet an heiress

31:18

the phenomenon edits

31:22

again is is it is analogous to have an elector

31:24

alex jones president eyes days it's

31:26

it's a it is

31:29

it's not a matter of his part like i probably agree

31:31

with half of his policies are more than half

31:33

his policies is not a matter of policy is

31:36

a matter of having someone who's totally unfit

31:39

the have power

31:40

given more power than any person in

31:42

a generation

31:43

and he and he's unfit for

31:47

every possible way is like

31:49

is not is not that he's just a

31:52

few screws loose like every screws loose

31:54

every screw that you would want totally

31:56

crank down

31:58

his lose or nonexistent and him

32:00

the

32:01

and so yeah so it's

32:03

the debt as my arguments tiger so some argument

32:05

is that it was appropriate for twitter

32:08

the heads of big tax and

32:11

journal and the heads of journalistic organizations

32:13

you feel that they were

32:15

in the presence of something

32:17

like a a once in a lifetime

32:20

moral emergency right

32:22

this is not the same thing as not liking

32:24

george bush you know our

32:27

not like and john mccain or not like mitt romney

32:30

for their politics this was

32:33

here's a guy who

32:35

is capable of anything

32:38

that he's not he is not ideological

32:41

he's again his leaves a black hole

32:43

of selfishness right his his he's

32:45

just as so there's no telling what he's going

32:47

to do

32:48

the

32:50

and we can not afford to have four

32:52

more years with this guy right and

32:55

and so

32:56

the

32:57

so what what should

33:00

well intentioned people do

33:02

who have a lot of power and these various ways you know you're

33:04

running a new york times your uneasy and and you're running

33:07

twitter what should

33:09

they conspire to do

33:11

the night of it it's those functions oil

33:13

i mean that trump is therefore is met on

33:15

with your mum from unless adelaide that that's what

33:17

don't know that that's the perverse thing is totally

33:20

their fault air b c and is

33:22

cnn gave us from roman oh no

33:24

the horse the in and gave us from mark burnett gave

33:26

us trump i mean that is it is is one person

33:29

could have

33:31

not done what he did and and

33:33

it's sort of closed door this whole phenomenon it was

33:35

mark burnett

33:38

the

33:40

yeah no says by giving him the attention

33:43

they have a he was he was great ratings in over

33:45

a year for he is a whole run up to

33:47

two twenty sixteen election

33:50

oh yeah know there's no one has clean

33:52

hands here but it at the eleventh

33:54

hour when it's when

33:57

who knows how this elections gonna go

33:59

know who knows what the capacity for

34:03

the disinformation at the last minute

34:05

to to tip the balance is

34:08

then what do you do

34:10

with the hunter biden laptop story

34:13

when we already know we we know

34:15

how this played out and twenty sixteen with

34:17

that hillary clinton email a

34:19

, conference where where call me and it in

34:22

his in an an of scrupulously

34:24

felt like he had to come before the cameras i

34:27

think ten days out from the election

34:29

and say you know was we're gonna

34:31

open up this gonna open again

34:33

with god as the winners laptop

34:35

the

34:37

we could see him in the again her failure

34:40

to become president was over determine she was a

34:42

an appallingly bad candidate

34:46

internet is tracking the poll numbers you could like

34:48

that was that was the killing

34:50

hello to her candidacy right that

34:53

that

34:53

final moment and this was a this

34:55

was a highly analogous situation

34:58

this was we're going open up this laptop from

35:00

hell and the new

35:02

news cycle for who who knows how

35:04

long

35:06

there's gonna be just just

35:09

conceivably just a nuclear bomb

35:11

of a in october october surprise and

35:15

we're going to get four more years of trump if we

35:17

actually give this a fair hearing the sam

35:19

you can't do that some solely you

35:21

gotta realize that you've got

35:24

a big fan and numbers the single all when

35:26

we're all equal before the law yeah and on way

35:28

and the other thousand dollar but i know it is not a lot

35:30

but if this is if you accept the my my

35:33

supposition that this is the public square than

35:35

it is the law it is if

35:37

it is the public square than it is worn

35:39

out you are arguing is not the public square which is fair

35:41

enough yeah right that find seal why

35:43

don't we move on because i think we've we've done and of yeah certainly

35:45

an opening up a lot of mr personality

35:47

on our he has gotta have that we're not

35:50

know but i'll just say just finally i do

35:52

so again it's

35:54

like a coin toss for me the hunter biden laptops

35:56

and to the i do understand

35:59

how

36:01

corrosive it is

36:03

for and institution like the

36:05

the new york times

36:06

the show obvious bias and

36:09

inconsistency and

36:11

there's honesty in how they it

36:13

was like they couldn't even frame it honestly assault

36:15

my god it's not like is

36:17

like the way i would frame it is

36:19

the

36:21

i don't care what's in hunter biden

36:23

so i'm a little a hunter by an at that point one hundred by literally

36:26

could have had had the corpses

36:28

of children in his basement

36:30

i would not have cared rights like isn't there's

36:32

nothing further it's hunter

36:34

biden race on his side is not joe

36:36

biden by even if

36:38

job like even that whatever

36:40

scope of joe biden corruption is

36:43

likely to if we could just go down that rabbit

36:45

hole endlessly and and understand

36:47

he's getting kickbacks from hundred bivens deals

36:50

in ukraine or wherever else writes for

36:52

china it is

36:55

the infinitesimal

36:57

compared to the corruption we know

36:59

trump is involved in psych it's like

37:01

it's like a firefly to the sun rights

37:03

camilla either this just

37:05

it doesn't even it doesn't even stack up against

37:07

trump university trump

37:09

university as a story

37:11

is worse than anything that could

37:13

be in in hunter bivens laptop in my

37:15

view right now that's not the

37:17

doesn't answer the people who say is still

37:19

completely unfair

37:22

do not have looked at the laptop

37:24

in a timely way into of shutdown that

37:26

scene of the new york post's twitter account

37:28

like that that's a just a conspiracy left

37:31

wing conspiracy to deny the

37:33

presidency to donald trump absolutely

37:36

it was absolutely right but

37:38

i think it was warranted right and i'm and

37:40

again is a coin toss as to whether or not some

37:42

i'm sorry for take it comes on radius or i

37:44

was the one that said we should move on but you said

37:46

something i really struggle for that which is

37:49

the years ago for the kids in the basement you

37:51

know not for the kids in the basement of

37:54

uninterrupted and democracy you're

37:56

saying you're content

37:58

with the left wing can

37:59

the receipt to prevent somebody being democratically

38:02

re elected as president would know i'm i'm

38:04

content was as but the thing is not left

38:06

wing press oh liz cheney is not left when

38:09

i lose cheney usually done everything

38:11

in her valerie to prevent somebody no way i'm

38:13

a crime is like is no tip for does not it's a

38:15

conspiracy the site is it was a conspiracy

38:17

out the open it does but it doesn't matter of was again

38:20

it doesn't matter what parts conspiracy what

38:22

pours out in the open up as a side

38:25

people get together and talk of and talk about

38:27

what should we do with about this phenomenon

38:29

or is it is like it though it was an asteroid

38:32

hurtling toward earth

38:33

and and we gotten a room together

38:36

with all of our friends and to had a conversation about what

38:38

we could do to deflect its course

38:41

right that a conspiracy a

38:43

like some of our conversational be in public some of

38:45

it would be in private we have a massive

38:47

problem we have an existential threat

38:50

rights politically speaking i

38:52

consider trump an existential threat

38:54

to our democracy right now so i'm going to destroy

38:56

the world very likely destroyed

38:58

by marker seen the process of protecting democratization

39:01

but that doesn't destroyed nods you art

39:03

art

39:05

i'm not

39:06

when i'm not suggesting that no point was i suggesting

39:09

we should stuff ballots

39:11

know our nose or brashly break

39:13

the machinery of democracy but

39:16

the

39:17

oh a political opinion is

39:19

already been is

39:22

completely inundated with

39:24

misinformation biased takes

39:27

half truths and outright lies right

39:29

like and amps or just the amplification

39:31

of of bad or misleading information based

39:33

on the algorithm so

39:38

this is like is is already there's

39:40

an avatar

39:42

of opinion

39:43

right and now the question

39:45

is

39:47

you know what can you do with your own

39:49

biases and your own is

39:51

it the as had to to get the out

39:53

some you think is actually better not just

39:55

for yourself personally but for the world

39:58

rice like i have like it is i'm

40:00

completely on conflicted in

40:03

in

40:04

the came

40:05

that a true that is a first from

40:08

term was bad and a second trump

40:10

term would be bad

40:12

and

40:13

it literally doesn't matter what was

40:16

a what what else was on the menu

40:18

like literally of of pick up pick a random

40:20

american better than trump

40:23

in the in the oval office likely lose

40:25

the likelihood that you're gonna get someone is worse than

40:27

trump

40:28

the a be given what i consider that the

40:30

a is bad about trump

40:32

his

40:33

the minutes

40:34

on your of one in a million right like you're

40:37

just not you're not gonna get you're not gonna

40:39

get worse than trump if you pick a random and

40:41

you know hillary clinton for all for flaws

40:44

was not worse than trump joe biden for us joe

40:46

biden we should have known joe biden

40:48

was going to just be tomatoes in office

40:50

not worse than drunk

40:53

the camo harris not were like elegance or

40:55

and any and again it's not just a a

40:57

marginal call is just

40:59

these are people who are

41:02

normal politicians or

41:04

so much more constrained why

41:06

predictable machinery

41:09

right

41:09

the like is there such a less

41:13

the opportunity there too

41:16

destroy institutions that we have to

41:19

rely on right is with with any of those

41:21

people in charge including a random person

41:23

in charge of random person who's going to be terrified

41:26

at the responsible the office and default

41:28

to expert opinion you know across

41:31

the board

41:32

the

41:34

no trump is again trump is an alex jones

41:36

level figure for me an office and

41:38

so you know is it's an alley like a smaller

41:40

problem is due to just for some billionaire

41:43

to buy the new york times and give it

41:45

alex jones to run right out in

41:47

a norm of a catastrophic loss

41:49

and mistake but that's a smaller problem

41:52

the getting from religion

41:54

hey francis do you

41:56

like journalism course thirty

41:58

five or journalist them superman what

42:01

superman superman's isn't

42:03

a real person francis he's an alien

42:06

you know a journalist a more important is

42:08

the fictional nice if , was

42:10

fictional more did frederick nature

42:13

throw about superman avoid

42:15

is known as the names in his

42:17

seminal work thus spoke zarathustra

42:20

published in i you know he for it but still

42:22

widely closes his eyes are both students

42:25

and intellectuals annoyed annoyed

42:27

francis i feel as if i have no clue who

42:29

you really are but if you do

42:32

like journalism that you have to check out the

42:34

epoch time the home fans

42:36

are not most media organizations

42:38

produce any government

42:41

prices a political policy

42:43

said to sell said story sounds of the facts

42:45

and yet read as as close to the truth

42:48

is they can truth articles the free

42:50

from the influence of the exact corporate

42:52

media and socialist corporate communist forces

42:54

as well the pope times believe

42:56

the more facts you have at your disposal

42:59

the better able you off to preserve your

43:01

voice here's what the read here's what about

43:03

them saw the coast present a factual

43:05

picture of the news from a conservative an

43:07

american perspective i feel the

43:09

pope times is the only public places

43:12

out there that gives me personal information

43:14

about stories in the news the

43:16

other rabbits and public places belatedly

43:19

report with liberal political biases

43:22

go to see focused see i

43:24

am dot c s forward slash

43:26

trigonometry and click the link that

43:29

he pokes said v p

43:31

c said , am

43:34

not a yes slashed trigonometry

43:37

the last was some gun was which he is

43:39

it really about trump is

43:42

i think could you agree that

43:44

with trump

43:45

the reason he's great cities because

43:47

he is a symptom of the system

43:50

whereby people ordinary people feel

43:52

that their voices on being heard

43:55

they realize that you know washington is

43:57

a machine that doesn't particularly care about

43:59

them they were betrayed time off

44:02

the time many times by the democrats many

44:04

times by the democrats who said that they were representing

44:06

ordinary working people like the labour

44:08

party were my country and

44:10

i felt that these politicians them

44:13

into so why not vote for trump

44:15

what else have we got to lose your when i

44:17

think that

44:18

explains

44:20

most of the his support answer

44:22

on his success yeah about it but i

44:24

think i think we should be

44:27

honest about how

44:31

the

44:33

both uninformed and

44:35

nihilistic by turns that

44:37

attitude is press like

44:39

and it's not

44:42

i mean that that is like the this

44:46

the clearest eruption of santa

44:48

toes you know in our lifetime

44:50

right it's just like list under the was just

44:53

learn it all down on some level like you the

44:55

the skies are wrecking ball we hate

44:57

the elites we hate the so called experts

45:00

go fuck yourselves we're just gonna

45:02

enjoy it's just watching this thing

45:04

venus in a swing through

45:07

everything you care about and

45:09

and

45:10

you know just

45:12

sounds of explosions are gonna be a just

45:14

give us pleasure right like that's like that's where

45:17

we are with tens of millions

45:19

of people in this country

45:21

that's a vet you know that is a

45:24

the

45:25

the very scary basis from

45:27

which to try them

45:30

in cooperate at scale and

45:32

and

45:35

produced political outcomes that are actually gonna be

45:37

good right and and any candid extremes

45:39

amplify each other as a that trump

45:41

is i'm in know that there was no greater goad

45:43

to woke ism than trump isn't

45:46

right and so it like and in i i

45:48

put myself you know in second place

45:51

the nobody

45:53

you know of the although i price been

45:55

a little bit less time on it and then some people

45:57

we can name in my

45:59

in the revulsion i feel too

46:02

the the extreme left

46:05

activism right a masters it's

46:07

in the air is is dishonest is it

46:09

can possibly be

46:12

and it's

46:13

the dishonesty is harder to parse for

46:16

smart people smart ethical people find

46:18

was happening on the last more confusing

46:21

than was happening on the rights of like these people as

46:23

we live and and soap and i spend much more time

46:26

focused on the less than less than i do on trump

46:28

or on the right because know

46:30

in this interview seven hundred

46:33

yards on abroad or not or gave us

46:35

gave bulldozer by trump revolves and is

46:37

and strong word what why did on

46:39

did feel exactly the same thing and you know why

46:41

we talked about my bus before i come from a society

46:43

the seen some of these i guess being implemented

46:46

now why do you feel

46:48

revulsion a very a very

46:50

emotion about this ideology because

46:54

it's some

47:00

one it is destroying institutions

47:02

that i actually care about like

47:04

when a white supremacy and

47:06

far right lunacy is

47:08

not affecting institutions

47:12

that matter you know v by

47:14

my lights right if you

47:16

could argue that it affected the scene on the

47:18

white house and and the us government to some

47:20

degree at the margin and again and think i

47:24

think the allegations of

47:26

trump's racism or his

47:28

alignment with the far as

47:30

far and wide to present i think that's been massively

47:32

exaggerated by the last and most

47:35

of most of the claims is

47:37

where have i have to actually have no doubt that he's actually

47:39

racist but most of the public

47:41

claims to his racism i think they're obviously

47:43

false and and in in are inconsistent

47:45

and so ,

47:47

sent a message you have to be intellectually honest

47:49

even as you derive dangerous

47:53

people and extremes

47:55

so

47:57

the

48:00

the let's of on the left has

48:03

you know as i'm sure you pointed out many times on on

48:05

your show me it has it has captured

48:07

institutions as captured in academia

48:09

is captured journalism is captured science

48:11

to an amazing degrees captured hollywood

48:14

it's

48:16

and for reasons that are understandable

48:18

because you know it is hard to figure

48:21

out what's wrong with black lives

48:23

matter as as a movement as well as

48:25

like it's you look at every

48:28

it's every it's it's perfectly

48:30

the engineered to

48:32

this you get past the the

48:35

the blood brain barrier and just the

48:38

cash to all the right ethical

48:40

receptor sites race i guess just this is

48:43

this , of course

48:45

i care about either work

48:47

of course racism of is racism is

48:49

disgusting i would the last

48:51

thing i would want to be as a racist of course

48:54

i acknowledge that little the legacy

48:56

of slavery and and just how hard

48:58

fought all of our civil rights gains have been in the

49:00

united states of , i don't

49:02

want be the the

49:04

of minority groups feeling victimized much

49:06

has been has i

49:08

won fair hiring practices are easy to

49:11

see his check all the boxes on

49:13

the boxes to

49:15

have a good liberal conscience you

49:19

know sort of person and you beer

49:22

confronted by the a black lives

49:24

matter as a social phenomenon and the protests

49:26

over george floyd in all that

49:28

it is very hard to see

49:31

that your in the presence of a

49:33

completely dishonest

49:36

moral panic right because

49:38

there's so many point of contact with real grievance

49:41

or potential points of contact with real grievance

49:43

and

49:45

the

49:46

the yeah it's it's

49:48

hurry to parse therefore more interesting

49:51

and is awesome more consequential in my

49:53

world that is vitiate in the new york times

49:55

and princeton university and

49:58

science mag

49:59

and as i guess just if

50:02

some

50:04

so

50:05

it's a full on moral panic out there

50:07

and and what's more you have this layer of smart

50:09

people who think all of that's been

50:11

exaggerated rights not really happening is just a

50:13

few college campuses two kids

50:15

iran on the onto college campuses

50:18

it's just like in of eighteen people at yale

50:20

you know lambasting

50:23

nicholas christakis

50:25

and

50:26

everyone else is really just a bystander

50:28

to this and as it's some

50:32

it's all been exaggerated

50:34

the kernel of truth there is it really is

50:36

it a is still a minority people who actually believe

50:38

this stuff but you know you only need

50:40

something like five or eight percent of really

50:43

energized activists minority

50:46

to

50:47

completely co op the conversation and that's

50:49

what has been accomplished and but it's

50:51

not just the is there a minority their an

50:53

exceptionally powerful one oregon so

50:55

you you know they're the ones who dictate coaches

50:58

they're the ones who set the tone they're

51:00

the ones who gonna who it in

51:02

create newspapers hundred percent

51:04

so that's the real problem isn't it but the

51:06

question i want to ask you is

51:10

where do you think this is gonna go where do you think this is gonna

51:12

wind up because he's more positive about it on

51:14

a rabid pessimists right where

51:16

do you suggest and ago

51:19

why i think of

51:22

if i had to bed i think

51:24

the vapors of

51:26

workers and will magically

51:28

disappeared as certain point i think it's i

51:30

think it's just whether we're going to have

51:33

one example of

51:35

the park or c or

51:38

you know i just one own goal that is

51:40

so spectacular see that everyone

51:42

will just all the sudden

51:44

pretend that they were never woke in woke in a whether

51:46

it's gonna be that serious alien moment would eat

51:49

and eat and point to and your timeline

51:51

or is just going to be this magical dissipation

51:53

those i you know where people start making

51:56

much more sense on these topics

51:58

i had a bad

51:59

we think that's gonna happen

52:02

then i don't think it's good so i and i think it's gonna happen

52:04

in some short order i don't think

52:06

we're gonna be having this conversation in

52:10

five years i will i will that would be very surprised

52:12

or heavens composition five years and that can

52:14

account me it again guess is an optimist a on

52:16

that front as really could be

52:18

wrong but i would be surprised

52:24

the one caviar i would i

52:26

would put their is

52:28

we get four more years of trump than that goes

52:30

completely out the window medicaid or for of we get somewhere

52:32

years of trump or a trump alike

52:35

phenomenon is just as provocative

52:37

to the last then it and that

52:40

calculation changes but if

52:42

we got into this got a normal

52:44

residency and twenty twenty four in

52:46

a web do democrat or republican

52:51

i think the woke thing has just become

52:54

so

52:56

i'm pragmatic

52:58

and

52:59

the

53:01

yeah i just i just don't i don't see how

53:04

people

53:05

begin aging out of it

53:07

in some short order mean it's somewhat analogous

53:09

to the may submit a much bigger

53:11

phenomenon but it is analogous to the

53:15

the child sexual abuse satanic

53:17

panic thing we had and i don't have you

53:19

guys had an in england and you know we just

53:21

had the catholic church yeah that's

53:25

, which is the tree out ruzicka true version

53:27

of any of these concerns yes but

53:32

the i mean and est on or of you know the story that

53:34

dumb

53:35

the the journalists lawrence right

53:37

the toll on my bike as but is a

53:39

he he wrote a book on on this and

53:41

but when he was doing the new yorker

53:43

article it became it became he was so is this real

53:46

research in l satanic panic phenomenon

53:48

and mrs in the eighties in the states

53:50

and to be out of the front for those who are too young

53:52

to have to remember that i'm in the allegation was

53:54

that it satanic

53:57

calls and infiltrated preschools and

53:59

they just

53:59

the very

54:03

the spirit or a away had decided

54:06

to get access to kids so

54:08

they could form human sacrifices and

54:10

duty ritual abuse and it

54:12

was now happening as scale in american

54:14

society and we , this

54:16

mass uprising and it was who

54:19

knows what was

54:20

you truly at the bottom other than

54:22

been a weather is

54:24

certain real rock lyrics were getting

54:26

into the heads of teenagers and spawning

54:28

a a a generation of devil

54:30

worshippers you know who could to curtail the we

54:32

would clearly have a problem on our hands and

54:35

, lawrence right in

54:37

kind of

54:39

getting on board on to this phenomenon

54:41

went to a seminar run

54:43

by law enforcement

54:46

at the i musharraf wasn't my been in texas

54:48

where he's liver many years

54:51

there's disappear in a seminar for

54:54

young journalists run by law enforcement

54:57

and he remembers that moment where the

54:59

the the sheriff

55:02

some leo

55:07

said to the group

55:09

last year

55:10

this two thousand children

55:13

were murdered

55:14

in ritual sacrifices by satanic

55:17

cults in this country

55:19

the heck of a cop says and

55:21

it it took lawrence you have five seconds

55:24

understand that there's been no

55:26

year in american history where there have

55:29

been fifty thousand murders of any kind

55:31

right and that yet here we have a cop

55:33

the same that that fifty

55:35

thousand kids have been kill it is fifty thousand

55:37

and missing mean i murdered gets rights

55:42

so what what explains that level

55:44

of confusion and arrangement right like

55:46

so what we're in a moment like the and his

55:48

the question yeah we were gonna ask you about that and i'm

55:50

really glad you phrased in

55:53

that way some because i was

55:55

a big fan of the new at this movement

55:57

not a francis and i am not none

55:59

none the three of us are religious her

56:02

i was a big admirer i'm are still am

56:04

a big admirer of yours richard dawkins i've

56:06

read many of his books however

56:11

is it possible

56:12

is it possible that people like

56:14

us the think in the way that we

56:16

do have forgotten

56:19

that thing i think it was a chest the some he said

56:21

this the when you still believe in god you don't believe

56:23

in nothing you believe in anything is

56:25

it possible that this new religion and i suddenly

56:27

she worked as a religion is

56:29

a product of a society that has led gov

56:32

that has religion a religion used to follow

56:33

i

56:36

think it's the

56:39

short answer is probably not because

56:41

i think many of the woke are you

56:44

know religious by my life so many was

56:46

certainly claimed to be religious is not like you have a

56:48

a bed of at an of polling researching

56:51

with exists on as be interesting to run these balls

56:53

but yes yes

56:56

loss of faith has been

57:00

ramping up in up in

57:02

him as a brilliant and all

57:05

the secular democracy is

57:08

what is still not in is a you don't have a minority

57:11

of people a daughter majority of people identified

57:13

as atheists right and as in the minority that identify

57:16

with atheists are still

57:17

don't a single digits because acres atheism

57:20

is a concept is just as got bad

57:22

pr , with it's it's

57:24

have something like twenty to twenty

57:27

five percent of the so called nuns

57:29

who are again these are not people identify as easy as

57:32

that these people who would say they're not identified

57:34

with any specific church be

57:36

so of most people who are you

57:38

know at least nominally christian and least

57:40

nominally to care about the christian it

57:43

in in in the us at this moment and he's

57:45

have something like the house

57:48

who are you know eerie really will

57:50

check many or most of the all the boxes

57:52

to too attached to their beliefs

57:57

there's more than area it's

57:59

if you

57:59

the asked if you're a is it and

58:02

say against a lot of people are on the christian right

58:04

but of many them are are

58:07

our whoa core awoke adjacent in

58:09

arms like i just was on van

58:11

jones his podcast right now he's not

58:16

these much walker then i

58:18

they are any of us think

58:20

he's probably said some rational

58:24

pragmatic things we didn't actually tongue probably

58:26

a some of it's gonna take on the of the

58:28

obama line of like like these

58:31

say listen kid zelig this is not in

58:33

their bigger problems than seat

58:35

pronouns are wary eye on the how he touched it

58:37

but

58:40

still he's like

58:42

in he someone who's coverage of black lives

58:45

matter

58:46

i would have been of many critical

58:48

things to say about an end

58:52

again the topic didn't come up at he's you know he someone

58:54

who if you ask him

58:57

do you think jesus will be returning to

58:59

earth to raise a living and dead

59:03

i'm pretty sure he would say yes

59:05

right and any and you'd be surprised

59:07

at the nub as a number of

59:09

the percentage of sober

59:12

nine bible thumping people

59:14

would say yes to that question

59:16

the i was i've been

59:18

amazed at it like that the people who

59:20

i who i would

59:23

that a lot of money would be i would be

59:25

skeptical of that t saves they they

59:27

they might be christian they might be

59:29

like listen i love the bible it gives me

59:32

a great moral frame where he is my kids the great

59:34

work moral framework of the treaty and his

59:36

visit this visit the traditional identified where this

59:39

where this super important to me

59:41

the

59:42

that's kind of as far as a goes right

59:45

like i'm not going to make medical

59:47

magical claims about slain

59:50

saviors were literally gonna come down

59:52

from work at whereas haven't exactly given

59:54

that we have multiple

59:58

telescopes up there you did there beaming

59:59

if you know

1:00:01

handed billions of of years worth

1:00:03

of of information

1:00:06

i'm amazed

1:00:09

at the number of people who will bite

1:00:11

the bullet on the core doctrine

1:00:13

and say i think jesus is gonna come back

1:00:15

and raise the dead wrote

1:00:18

some surely you have to agree in a society

1:00:20

which is becoming ever more atomizer unable

1:00:22

to disclose we gotta show got it off for many

1:00:25

of these people are awoke right how you can't

1:00:27

say you can't the punchline can't they will

1:00:29

they lost their religion another their that is

1:00:31

a they have a vacuum of ethical

1:00:33

and and existential

1:00:36

vacuum that are filling with wealth

1:00:38

as now there's i age i would grant you that

1:00:40

it's and

1:00:41

the dollars your point yeah i'll grant you that it's

1:00:44

drawing

1:00:45

a lot of

1:00:47

why these spiritual quasi

1:00:49

religious energy

1:00:51

from

1:00:53

the fact that

1:00:54

most people in our society

1:00:58

the even if they're nominally religious

1:01:01

really are struggling to

1:01:03

to find meaning in in their day

1:01:05

in their day to day about it when you look at just the

1:01:07

finity the hour by hour

1:01:09

increments at which selena life as doled out

1:01:11

us are you get up in age

1:01:13

as your as cast out of

1:01:16

you know do deep sleeper or

1:01:18

he noted that phantasmagoria

1:01:20

of of dreams you

1:01:22

know when you alarm goes off in the morning and

1:01:27

how do you feel about your life and what

1:01:29

is gonna give you moral

1:01:31

urgency and meaning it

1:01:34

lot of the millions and

1:01:36

millions of people found it as

1:01:39

a specific moments in our in our a

1:01:41

recent history like and real the george

1:01:44

floyd the only was certainly one

1:01:46

of those

1:01:47

moments where that okay this is

1:01:50

enough is enough like this is my

1:01:52

religion right up and

1:01:54

and add some

1:01:56

it's understandable and it is yes it

1:01:59

does have a really

1:01:59

this dynamic

1:02:01

the

1:02:03

there's a religious dynamic and it's it's it's call

1:02:05

it religious

1:02:07

the to just basically say

1:02:10

actually it it in an invidious statement about

1:02:12

religion is basically say like with all the things

1:02:14

i don't like about religion is tribalism is dogmatism

1:02:17

it's his immunity to

1:02:19

good arguments a good evidence right the fact

1:02:21

that it can't be reasoned with

1:02:24

really because it's just chuck reason out the

1:02:26

door a you know initially or plan

1:02:28

and what has brought back in the name of reason is

1:02:30

functioning under that

1:02:32

the

1:02:33

the the for the new physics of just

1:02:35

casuistry like like we already know that

1:02:37

god exists and we know the bible's perfect

1:02:39

we know the koran as perfect as a within that

1:02:41

frame now we're going to get really reasonable

1:02:44

like you know st thomas aquinas or

1:02:47

st augustine the

1:02:51

that's all the stuff about really

1:02:53

that religion that i find that

1:02:55

so obviously wrong and so easy

1:02:57

to see once you're not indoctrinated into that

1:03:00

religion a

1:03:02

lot of that this explains

1:03:05

what is happening politically we're

1:03:07

on the far left and the far right

1:03:13

some but you i

1:03:16

think all of us have got to admit that in a society

1:03:18

we're becoming ever more demise where people are becoming

1:03:20

more isolated

1:03:23

religion organized religion it

1:03:26

was a bond it was a community people could

1:03:28

go they can meet other people they

1:03:31

could feel connected and so

1:03:33

when people are disconnected they gonna look

1:03:35

for ways to connect with someone

1:03:37

else and what better way to do that was then with

1:03:39

in i support this political movement blm

1:03:42

the oh you know what do you share

1:03:44

the same immutable characteristics as me

1:03:46

you know i'm gay or on blackford

1:03:48

said to have sex with in because was so

1:03:51

desperate because will literally

1:03:53

program to form communities that

1:03:55

we're going to have this ideology which is going

1:03:57

to enable us to created community

1:04:01

yeah and and on the

1:04:03

woke sided has this with

1:04:05

as a precursor and christianity but

1:04:07

it's it's some

1:04:10

somehow in a pure form now it

1:04:12

is inverted the live

1:04:15

lives value structure is such that

1:04:17

in , the that the lower status

1:04:19

you are the higher status you

1:04:22

you come out and only ones the calculation

1:04:24

has been done in dungeons

1:04:26

and dragons with that sort of the new dies

1:04:28

were like that the of the least powerpoints

1:04:30

you have in our youth you know

1:04:33

that the more you find yourself winning and

1:04:35

so that the victimology of it is some

1:04:38

you know and and that he and the meek

1:04:40

shall inherit the earth i'm is really it is that

1:04:42

those am the

1:04:44

implemented in a very weird way

1:04:47

and , game aside somehow a

1:04:49

in all of the intersectionality details

1:04:52

of it

1:04:53

the

1:04:56

yeah me it's

1:04:57

there's no question people

1:05:00

right tremendous amount of energy and

1:05:03

in a hesitate to say meaning them

1:05:05

is the meaning and scare quotes from

1:05:08

this

1:05:09

that's all i'm a i guess it's a month to steal

1:05:11

man

1:05:13

all of it

1:05:14

in a briefly it'd be it is

1:05:16

again especially on the last

1:05:19

it's genuinely confusing read

1:05:21

like the exit the the the

1:05:24

mad work that the tiny pieces

1:05:26

of misinformation or or just

1:05:28

bus fraudulent assumptions

1:05:31

is doing

1:05:32

it is

1:05:33

it's really impossible to exaggerate

1:05:36

was of the ask most people who like most

1:05:38

people who saw the george floyd

1:05:43

moment i mean it's sam

1:05:45

can i didn't deeds we've

1:05:48

yet to totally understand what happened there because

1:05:50

like you who knows oh man i guess

1:05:52

i just as brackets act as i don't you we still on

1:05:54

a who derek shogun really is and

1:05:56

why he did what did did right so like either

1:05:59

it was a race the murder or it was

1:06:01

a in on his brain malfunction

1:06:03

to like to i i i don't i also look at

1:06:05

a video i don't know what i'm looking at there's just

1:06:07

it isn't

1:06:09

apart from that that the horrible killing

1:06:11

of a person who'd certainly did not need to be

1:06:13

killed in this situation

1:06:17

it

1:06:19

you ask most but most people who saw that

1:06:22

the vast majority people who saw that he

1:06:24

i certainly left of center

1:06:26

would bet their lives

1:06:29

that the lives of their children

1:06:31

and what they saw their was a

1:06:33

a racist lynching

1:06:35

like that was a we're what we have is a white

1:06:38

man killing a black man

1:06:41

cause of racism that i

1:06:43

wouldn't have happened to a white man it wouldn't

1:06:45

have been perpetrated by a black man raises

1:06:47

a hundred percent of the explanatory

1:06:50

variable there

1:06:53

and

1:06:54

not only was that as

1:06:56

unambiguously evil

1:06:59

the sadistic and racists as

1:07:02

it seemed

1:07:04

that happens thousands

1:07:06

of times a year in america

1:07:08

i guess people to estimate how many how many black

1:07:11

people you think get murdered by white racists cops in

1:07:13

america rear

1:07:15

they imagine where we're talking thousands

1:07:17

right so if you believe that

1:07:20

right then what would

1:07:22

you do you , what would we have wouldn't

1:07:24

you to take to the streets when when

1:07:27

everyone says where it was on it where on

1:07:29

was for protesting on tuesday

1:07:32

the course right so it's like so you

1:07:34

don't have to add too many pieces of

1:07:37

your distorting you know

1:07:40

the

1:07:41

pseudo facts

1:07:42

the get to get

1:07:44

people who i otherwise totally understand

1:07:47

two

1:07:49

now so you know all in all

1:07:51

the the predictable pieties on this topic

1:07:54

but the truth is all of that

1:07:56

is wrong right like you know it's you can count

1:07:58

on on two hands

1:07:59

the number of unarmed black

1:08:02

man

1:08:03

get killed every year by cops

1:08:05

the

1:08:06

then you can count more white people who get killed

1:08:08

every year by cops right a are under identical

1:08:11

circumstances up again

1:08:13

i've again i've about this my bike as when he not

1:08:15

go there are those who are interested to look at

1:08:17

them

1:08:19

the episode can we pull back from the brink we

1:08:21

will beautifully get like two hours i talk about

1:08:23

it was was actually one needed to be said in that moment

1:08:25

threat i really congratulate you on that on by

1:08:27

people to gone find that of really very good

1:08:30

so i'm ugly that aside but

1:08:33

the miss so that that the misinformation or

1:08:35

the the faulty assumptions heard

1:08:38

the highest level rises like this is not

1:08:40

it does

1:08:42

the i guess are some people who actually know

1:08:44

what is real here energy

1:08:46

cynically when italy and politics but

1:08:48

mrs hard me to believe that

1:08:51

i'm on my com ela harrison doesn't actually

1:08:53

know the numbers right but

1:08:57

it's not in her political interests

1:08:59

or lin wood she conceives of us are political interest

1:09:01

to

1:09:02

quite she knows the numbers right

1:09:04

the it

1:09:07

anyone it's those it's not many

1:09:09

charitable view is

1:09:11

they're they're very few people who are

1:09:15

consciously

1:09:17

line

1:09:20

the

1:09:21

we're seeking to

1:09:26

using that i know iran may just caught

1:09:28

conscious evil is or is a rare thing

1:09:30

yes and i must be useful idiots

1:09:32

is what i talk about my book yeah yes i

1:09:35

agree with this tag constantine

1:09:37

did you want better mental health

1:09:40

on from what are so we don't have mental

1:09:42

health so how do you deal with mental

1:09:44

health you drink vodka then go out

1:09:46

on the wrestle birth if you leave you

1:09:48

feel better if you die you know

1:09:50

three oh man what about the best feelings

1:09:53

it's roster where it has no feelings

1:09:56

people don't always realize it

1:09:58

physical symptoms or headache

1:09:59

pointing and even issues

1:10:02

can be in the case

1:10:03

the stress and let's not forget

1:10:05

about soon scrolling no sleep enough

1:10:08

sleeping too much on the rethink

1:10:10

and dog very very brutal

1:10:12

much on during using this is worse

1:10:14

than the disease therapy has really

1:10:16

helped me in my life to concentrate

1:10:19

and focus is really important

1:10:21

to have someone impartial who you can

1:10:23

talk to about the tricky issues they

1:10:25

go struggling to deal with therapy

1:10:28

, played a really important role in

1:10:30

helping me to deal with my eighty hd

1:10:32

and become better in all areas

1:10:34

of my life why is she telling

1:10:36

them how we keys drink vodka

1:10:39

few birth or best to help is

1:10:41

customized online therapy

1:10:43

video phone and even more

1:10:46

sessions with your therapist so you

1:10:48

don't have to see anyone on camera

1:10:51

if you don't want to do they are going on with

1:10:53

refunds get ten percent of the first

1:10:55

month of but the help dot com forward slash

1:10:57

three good especially if they're not real mean

1:11:00

he he

1:11:01

the c e o h

1:11:04

oh hey don't com slash

1:11:06

trigger some listen

1:11:08

you've been very generous to the time there's a fifty

1:11:11

other questions we want on your when all going to

1:11:13

get a chance to chance so we'll pick out

1:11:15

from all we do all couple of questions for supports

1:11:17

us all make sure to pick out of a grow up with the question

1:11:19

because that's when i came up a law or

1:11:21

i'm that was before we ask you the final

1:11:23

question if you don't mind a a few more minutes

1:11:26

go for a i wanted will francis

1:11:28

and i both ones that actually talk you we've talked

1:11:30

about these very divisive things and people will have

1:11:32

a different opinion about trump on cove it and

1:11:34

and brexit and all of this stuff whatever you

1:11:36

want to the but one thing that strikes me

1:11:38

is your one of

1:11:40

the see people that we've met who is content

1:11:44

who's happy i can tell how

1:11:48

does how if people

1:11:50

are watching this and they would like to be happy

1:11:52

in spite of all the terrible things that they think

1:11:54

you have these really happening on twitter the

1:11:57

strikes me a francis uses your app

1:11:59

every morning

1:12:01

how do

1:12:03

you and as one in the modern

1:12:05

world get closer to

1:12:07

that point where whatever

1:12:10

is happening at out whatever storms

1:12:12

around the you're calm and peaceful

1:12:14

inside

1:12:16

the first one of the i'm not i'm certainly not always

1:12:19

calm and peaceful but the have you isis

1:12:21

doesn't hurt that has a voice is growing

1:12:23

yes

1:12:26

the truth is so images

1:12:28

of the backstory hear that yogi in my

1:12:30

early twenties i got really into meditation

1:12:33

and i'm , the first psychedelic

1:12:35

so he showed me that it was possible have a

1:12:37

very different experience of the world and

1:12:41

ah and it was and it of mind

1:12:43

that could be explored

1:12:45

this is how you paid attention to experience

1:12:47

rats i owe it prior to psychedelic

1:12:49

i would really just

1:12:52

been kind of waiting for these third person

1:12:54

brain based discussion to deliver

1:12:56

lane all the right answers about you know

1:12:58

what the human mind is and it was was

1:13:00

pretty well established

1:13:03

and still is thought to be well established

1:13:05

in western science and psychological science cognitive

1:13:07

science and , even them

1:13:10

western philosophy that introspection

1:13:13

was a dead end mean they tried to get it off

1:13:15

the ground somewhere around one hundred and

1:13:17

twenty years ago and it

1:13:19

just scenery you come up short

1:13:21

almost immediately i mean the truth is you can't you close your eyes

1:13:24

and you look inside and you can't

1:13:26

even tell you have you have much

1:13:28

less at the brain is doing all of his top like

1:13:30

saying that is is actually delivering your experience

1:13:32

in the world so

1:13:34

and

1:13:37

minutes is just one curious asymmetry

1:13:39

as of cultural wisdom in

1:13:42

the east the you know for

1:13:45

all the failings of what didn't happen civilisational

1:13:47

happen in a in culture

1:13:50

the

1:13:51

there's a lot to be said about that

1:13:55

they didn't lose this strand

1:13:57

of wisdom which is there actually is something

1:14:00

the discovered in a first person

1:14:02

way about the nature of your own mind that

1:14:04

is liberating i think of it you you

1:14:06

suffer by certain

1:14:09

the

1:14:10

machinery a certain dynamics

1:14:13

which you which could either completely

1:14:15

inscrutable to you or can become

1:14:17

more and more transparent

1:14:20

and and in his transparency

1:14:23

less and less operatives on

1:14:25

a moment by moment basis and so did such

1:14:28

retake any the topics we've talked about zoe we do

1:14:30

you have talked about me getting on twitter and

1:14:32

getting really spun up over have been of

1:14:34

somebody saying something about something about something

1:14:36

else that i care about

1:14:39

i talk of your anyone who

1:14:42

things i have trump derangement syndrome

1:14:44

is going to look at me as area you why

1:14:46

talking to this guy about meditations get so worked

1:14:49

up over trump you know what it's like this is it

1:14:51

was , it's a performative contradiction rights

1:14:54

that's actually to miss understand

1:14:56

my

1:14:59

you know emotional relationship to the phenomenon

1:15:01

of trump or like i like like jr your i can

1:15:03

say everything i say

1:15:06

about it's and think about trump

1:15:09

without spending much time

1:15:11

the only in contracted around

1:15:14

trump an epa is up say is the essence say no

1:15:16

time this is much less

1:15:18

time than i otherwise would if i if i didn't

1:15:20

know how to who the

1:15:22

input meditate right now melt the word meditation

1:15:25

can mean many different things saved

1:15:27

people bugs

1:15:29

what did you should mean is

1:15:31

the

1:15:33

the simple recognition of

1:15:37

what

1:15:38

consciousness is like

1:15:40

rider to entanglement

1:15:42

with sought what a world with

1:15:44

three of us are sitting here and

1:15:47

we're having

1:15:49

a and experience of the world

1:15:51

is happening in the you know five sensory channels

1:15:54

there's there's this other

1:15:56

mode or this other aspect

1:15:59

or

1:15:59

in which is

1:16:01

are thinking about

1:16:03

what we directly experience through our senses

1:16:05

right and the from for most people

1:16:07

most of the time the thoughts are

1:16:10

the incessant

1:16:11

and uninspected right and and and

1:16:13

and there are rise in his on notice rosie you

1:16:16

just it just feels like you right

1:16:18

like so you'll say something that i disagree with

1:16:21

and it's that does a voice

1:16:23

in me which says

1:16:25

what's he talking about or i was i mean

1:16:27

really well i got to get the but will he do it but you just this

1:16:30

is that voice that either is

1:16:33

that either feels like a cell

1:16:35

for me in in

1:16:37

nearly one hundred percent of the

1:16:39

the the cases

1:16:41

that is feels like i write that feels

1:16:43

like gonna miss me and

1:16:46

then you're you're told something

1:16:48

about the project of well get

1:16:50

easy you could have an experience haphazardly

1:16:54

or on psychedelic swear that get that

1:16:56

the unification get interrupted by were all

1:16:58

of a sudden

1:17:00

there's just the mind is certainly much

1:17:03

more vast than that right it

1:17:05

doesn't feel like there's a subject

1:17:07

in the head looking out through your

1:17:09

eyes at a world that's not you

1:17:12

and

1:17:13

forever implicated by the glances

1:17:16

of other people and the opinions of other people

1:17:18

and it's just me and hear this cause of in battle

1:17:20

the go trying to

1:17:22

navigate a world that is fundamentally

1:17:25

release potentially hostile to my

1:17:27

interest right like that subject object dichotomy

1:17:30

where it's just like , the man and

1:17:32

about trying to steer it in

1:17:34

oh did the to send safeties

1:17:37

and knock over the falls emotionally

1:17:41

that suddenly relaxes

1:17:44

again it it matters what a now vegas maybe

1:17:46

i'm talking about psychedelic because it's

1:17:48

it's more mora replicator

1:17:50

bowl for people depending on what

1:17:52

drug you've taken back and relax

1:17:54

and one or another way of an md amaze

1:17:56

really just the relaxing of the the emotional

1:17:59

toll

1:17:59

of all that without the deep

1:18:02

d pyrotechnics of of

1:18:04

changing your perceptions

1:18:06

if you sell as they are so as i've and you can have

1:18:08

a a real much more

1:18:10

fundamental transformation how you perceive the world

1:18:13

that waivers the case the

1:18:16

just so happens that are are nervous systems are perturb

1:18:18

all pharmacologically or

1:18:20

just by happenstance way this could happen to you

1:18:22

just because it happens to you rights

1:18:25

and people have those stories there's

1:18:29

vast testimony on this topic that you

1:18:31

can it you can experience

1:18:33

you are mine

1:18:35

as a much vaster place and you tend

1:18:37

to experience it

1:18:40

as and

1:18:41

the

1:18:44

then when you come back from one of the those experiences

1:18:46

you might become interested in what is

1:18:48

it that trims it down so reliably

1:18:50

to of reliably to this experience of confinement

1:18:53

where you feel like just

1:18:55

me here feeling uptight again

1:18:57

right you know what what's what's that about

1:19:03

virtually a hundred percent of of

1:19:05

that is

1:19:06

what it's like to be you identified

1:19:09

with thought and then if you're

1:19:11

if you're identified with thought habitually you

1:19:14

were at the mercy of whatever you happen to

1:19:16

think about prices as just like thursday

1:19:20

never i've

1:19:23

the mirror and money and alger i've drawn

1:19:25

somewhere is just a is really a is

1:19:27

like the most boring person

1:19:29

in the world comes to the front door of your house

1:19:32

and takes you hostage for your father's

1:19:35

you from room to room the tell you the same

1:19:37

stories over and over again you can't shut him

1:19:40

up and you can get away from

1:19:42

him

1:19:42

it's just and

1:19:44

that's your life right and you're

1:19:47

you're thinking about the past about what you could have said

1:19:49

or should have said are almost thirty thinking about the future

1:19:51

what what's this what's you know he has gonna

1:19:53

go and most of the shooters you you

1:19:55

visualize never happened the wave

1:19:58

is obsessed about them in the first place so

1:20:00

that ninety nine percent of yourself talk

1:20:03

his

1:20:05

amir at best it's neutral

1:20:08

with respect was emotional toll on him and as really

1:20:10

of elements some people have you

1:20:12

convince some people have people have happy self

1:20:15

talk and that's enough

1:20:18

so hard to get through to them because they really don't

1:20:20

think of themselves as ever suffering

1:20:22

much psychologically right they they they're very

1:20:24

confident they love the people in our

1:20:26

lives a level of back

1:20:28

they're not

1:20:29

really conflict they don't have regrets and disappointments

1:20:32

that they're friendly and they're not you know not worried

1:20:34

about anything and they just want to get

1:20:36

up and do it again tomorrow we haven't so much

1:20:38

fun dot people like that psychopaths

1:20:41

guess what is most

1:20:43

people are not like that ramos the flow chart are

1:20:45

sensitive to this criticism of the default

1:20:48

witches most

1:20:50

of what you're saying to yourself isn't making

1:20:52

you happy and worse

1:20:55

it's it's predicated

1:20:57

on a fundamental illusion

1:20:59

the

1:21:01

so photo identification with this

1:21:03

this subset of your of your mental

1:21:05

experience which is this again that this

1:21:08

discursive thought and

1:21:10

when you break that identification there's

1:21:13

as much more space there and

1:21:15

the past and any

1:21:19

the d

1:21:20

it is in saw it isn't in identification with

1:21:22

thought that the past and the future

1:21:25

exert their weight on the prison

1:21:27

like is a good work

1:21:30

that's because when it work

1:21:31

processing everything we experience

1:21:33

in the present

1:21:35

brutus scrim of discursive thought

1:21:38

we don't we never actually make satisfying

1:21:40

contact with the present we rarely do

1:21:42

and and those moments where we do

1:21:44

this was peak peak experience moments

1:21:48

what has made it it be a peak is

1:21:51

breaking the spell of thought for long

1:21:53

enough for is just a lead and some

1:21:55

of the breeze of or awareness

1:21:57

that is always and it's always there

1:22:00

we just don't we were

1:22:02

blocking it continually would have an open the door

1:22:04

the window

1:22:07

and some

1:22:11

meditation really is again

1:22:13

there are many different techniques are dirt to may have wasted

1:22:16

to describe and frame it in the end

1:22:18

is actually not even a practice

1:22:21

you're doing is not and it is in the end

1:22:23

it is something your ceasing to do mirrors

1:22:25

is is just

1:22:27

nine distraction your seem to be distracted

1:22:30

by thought you're you're starting to notice

1:22:32

the themselves as appearances

1:22:34

in consciousness and

1:22:37

noticed as empty as appearances they

1:22:40

don't have force they don't have

1:22:42

emerged from and of emotional force is not like you

1:22:44

be suddenly become an idiot you can't figure

1:22:46

out what you want to eat for dinner you know how to how

1:22:48

to find your car or i'm you

1:22:50

can see even think and you can plan

1:22:53

the

1:22:54

the moment you

1:22:57

begin to suffer

1:22:58

you because you be years your new default

1:23:01

is to become interested in his i guess is

1:23:03

as i game mindfulness alarm you

1:23:07

the started sounding and

1:23:11

then you relax your identification

1:23:13

with the just that just the

1:23:15

the

1:23:16

the physiology of suffering mr tickets

1:23:18

a to bring it back to bombers talk about so

1:23:21

yeah there's a moment where i notice something

1:23:24

that

1:23:26

i find

1:23:28

you know either but i personally annoying

1:23:31

or or the appropriate target of moral

1:23:34

outrage my i don't think we should get raided

1:23:36

or not envisioning psychological

1:23:38

health has been synonymous with never been

1:23:40

angry ever again or never been fearful

1:23:43

every and any idea of negative emotions

1:23:46

are

1:23:48

you know from a from a and enlightened

1:23:51

point of view and my book are still

1:23:53

salient cues relic of i walk

1:23:55

outside this house on the way to my car

1:23:58

and someone physically attacked me on the side

1:23:59

walk

1:24:00

i don't want to be just a puddle

1:24:03

of goo in i'll just be me in

1:24:05

love with the person i let that as not

1:24:07

it's not to say that there's not it does not a possible

1:24:10

state of consciousness it it certainly is

1:24:12

it actually they're they're settling

1:24:14

scenarios where that

1:24:17

that float works right like just being

1:24:19

the guy who's the

1:24:22

beaming unconditional love as your only

1:24:24

response to anything right it's

1:24:27

possible to get out of some physical altercation

1:24:30

because it's are so surprising by someone comes

1:24:32

to mug you and your just in our yard

1:24:34

in your on m the a may and you to same as man

1:24:37

i love you right like that could

1:24:39

either like that could turn out well but

1:24:43

practically speaking

1:24:45

the strikes me is totally appropriate

1:24:47

to

1:24:49

feel

1:24:51

these kind of punk tape neg classically

1:24:53

negative emotions

1:24:55

equip the the real question is

1:24:57

how long do they last and what

1:24:59

are they good for like what like when when is

1:25:01

it

1:25:02

when do you what do you want to cease being angry

1:25:05

so that you can actually function intelligently

1:25:07

in in in my book

1:25:09

that happens very very soon after

1:25:12

the rising of anger and the like you don't you don't want to stay

1:25:14

angry right like a buddy but the initial

1:25:17

the old of anger in

1:25:21

many cases is totally appropriate any it

1:25:23

is the orient in response to you actually need

1:25:25

to respond intelligently to the whatever

1:25:28

, emergency or quasi

1:25:30

emergency is

1:25:32

the

1:25:33

the

1:25:35

once you know how to meditate you

1:25:37

do notice that the half life of negative

1:25:39

emotions is really really breathe mrs

1:25:41

actually impossible to stay angry

1:25:44

or embarrassed

1:25:46

or whatever it is pickier negative

1:25:48

emotion the longer than

1:25:52

some tens of seconds unless

1:25:56

you then you're you're taken in by thought again

1:25:58

about why you should be angry or wife the embarrassed

1:26:01

and

1:26:02

that

1:26:04

your life becomes completely different when

1:26:06

you can get off the right you know i mean the

1:26:08

difference between being angry for ten

1:26:11

seconds the been angry for ten

1:26:13

minutes even in a much less ten hours

1:26:16

or ten days this enormous

1:26:18

ravages you just think of how life arranging

1:26:21

those periods are were years helplessly

1:26:24

motivated the anger

1:26:27

right and in ten minutes is enough to completely

1:26:30

fucked up your life right i'm into say the thing

1:26:32

to your spouse that you can't

1:26:35

have that into ring the bell you can't on ring

1:26:37

you know and images like the like the

1:26:39

see how people's lives run off

1:26:41

the rails because

1:26:44

their minds are out of control and and literally

1:26:47

that everything we see out there

1:26:49

that is producing masses human

1:26:52

suffering and and your existential

1:26:54

risk even area like literally everything

1:26:56

beyond naturally

1:26:59

occurring disasters

1:27:01

the

1:27:02

there's a matter of people's minds been out

1:27:04

of control

1:27:05

we just have we just that were running

1:27:07

terrible legacy code

1:27:09

you know he in a condition of increasingly

1:27:13

the

1:27:15

stabilizing

1:27:19

power amplified by technology

1:27:21

i mean if is getting increasingly easy one

1:27:24

person to screw it up for the

1:27:26

rest of us missile or that the topic of existential

1:27:28

risk as it's own thing which i am

1:27:31

focusing on more and more i think it's

1:27:33

you know it's and it's

1:27:35

neglected to scary to graham

1:27:37

is just they're just not that they're not enough

1:27:40

people thinking about how

1:27:42

we can shore up our civilization against

1:27:45

existential risk and the man made another

1:27:47

was so

1:27:50

much of the daily evidence of

1:27:54

the conflict a needless human misery is is

1:27:57

born of people

1:27:59

been kept the by their thoughts and not

1:28:01

knowing that there's any alternative the

1:28:03

just they're just talking to themselves rather

1:28:05

and it is claiming to know things are they

1:28:07

don't know the in persuaded

1:28:09

by those the inner proclamations

1:28:12

right images like what does it feel like the

1:28:16

have a very strong opinion

1:28:19

that is going to dictate everything you

1:28:22

do next

1:28:23

and

1:28:25

how often is that just and

1:28:27

automaticity that's totally

1:28:29

unexpected that would

1:28:31

be

1:28:32

the

1:28:34

could be completely deflated

1:28:37

just with another which was at a moment's

1:28:39

pause if you only knew how to

1:28:42

do you just take the other side and at ever

1:28:44

forget about meditation for a moment is that the ability

1:28:46

to

1:28:47

skeptical about one zone

1:28:49

opinions like that talk about

1:28:51

an and train skill minister

1:28:53

something that almost nobody has

1:28:56

right know nobody even has it has it as

1:28:59

norm that you could indoors

1:29:01

even in the abstract really why would you want to be skeptical

1:29:03

about your own opinions like this is

1:29:06

what i think

1:29:07

that's why i'm like you i'm always

1:29:09

starting debates around the dinner table because

1:29:11

i'm always testing what i think against what other

1:29:13

people saying and because i'm aware that it's

1:29:16

just thought and they dress refining

1:29:18

but anyway we've got one for some

1:29:20

forgettable thank you so much for go have been

1:29:22

doing wasn't well as at the scene and speak with you

1:29:25

and get a low but of your opinion wisdom

1:29:27

and can i just say if people listen to

1:29:29

this i use europe it's actually

1:29:31

brilliant and it has three my life's the ability

1:29:34

to just sit and meditate for ten minutes every

1:29:36

morning is one of the most if

1:29:38

not the best way to deal with obtrusive

1:29:40

and obsessional thoughts with every time

1:29:42

he comes into the studio and he's all

1:29:45

over the place ago have you meditate the answer

1:29:47

is always now there are so yeah thanks

1:29:49

you know it's berlin and the podcasts making

1:29:51

sense to sam harris and with am with am fan

1:29:53

of like of we talked about during the blm

1:29:56

situation you covered it i thought exactly

1:29:59

the way that to become an you have important conversations

1:30:01

on that i will do a couple

1:30:04

of questions for locals i will ask you buy coverage

1:30:06

because we promised before we do that or above

1:30:08

before we do or final question so was the same

1:30:10

one thing we're not talking about that we really

1:30:12

should

1:30:14

in this conversation or anything side

1:30:16

as a society

1:30:18

the

1:30:22

always touched on pieces of it i'm a

1:30:24

i do think

1:30:27

that

1:30:32

and as a generic level

1:30:35

me that that the problem is always

1:30:37

sell years as cooperation

1:30:39

for us at this point be like like

1:30:42

virtually anything that's going to just happened

1:30:44

to us coughed up by the the hand

1:30:46

of nature we can

1:30:49

figure out how to solve at this point i'm at m and

1:30:51

including it an asteroid hurtling towards

1:30:53

towards as me that this point we have enough tech

1:30:56

and i'm , so sure we have enough people

1:30:58

watching but close that

1:31:01

won't win a we'd have tens

1:31:03

, years right would have some decades to

1:31:06

turn you on a problem that

1:31:08

specific problem

1:31:10

the

1:31:11

the all of our problems on some level of

1:31:13

our our of our own making me if

1:31:15

nothing else is just or

1:31:18

the opportunity costs born

1:31:20

of all of the needless bullshit we get entangled

1:31:23

with based on her own you know you you know

1:31:25

incapacity to cooperate so it

1:31:28

is just it's some

1:31:31

that's the first order of business to business

1:31:34

and the next one to figure out how weekend

1:31:37

have the casual conversations on some level

1:31:40

right like of because get all we have a it

1:31:42

is is a capacity

1:31:44

persuade one another so as

1:31:46

to the engineer in

1:31:49

a forward looking cooperation

1:31:51

or we have violence rather million the

1:31:53

end like of that we just get a have to force

1:31:55

people to do stuff if we can persuade

1:31:57

them to do stuff for their you know they indicate

1:31:59

them to the the epiphany is on their own ins

1:32:03

were politics comes in

1:32:06

the and

1:32:07

more and more

1:32:09

i think we're in a situation where

1:32:12

because of technology

1:32:15

it had some

1:32:17

strangely getting harder and harder to

1:32:20

to get our we are talking that are horizons

1:32:23

due to fuse right was that eight

1:32:25

billion strangers morales

1:32:28

trying to figure out how to cooperate and

1:32:32

suasion is the only good

1:32:34

tool again mean for it me would have to use

1:32:36

force in certain circumstances and i'm in

1:32:38

our as think we should be very

1:32:40

i

1:32:42

don't think pacifism is is

1:32:44

is is a plan their am i think we actually

1:32:46

do need to have are forced game together

1:32:49

to for for the situations where we need it in

1:32:51

up and as individually and collectively

1:32:54

right as level of nation states as

1:32:58

well

1:33:00

i'm be i'm increasingly worried about our

1:33:02

incapacity to converge

1:33:05

on a just

1:33:07

this passionate fan base discussion

1:33:09

the things that are just

1:33:11

so easy

1:33:13

to assess images i usually touch several

1:33:15

topics here but just like

1:33:17

how many people have any

1:33:20

identity get killed by cops every year

1:33:22

in america and decide what are it's like and

1:33:24

how does that relate to the

1:33:26

levels of crime been perpetrated

1:33:28

by people of various identities and like

1:33:30

i was situations are cops actually getting into

1:33:33

and what other reasonable expectations

1:33:35

of people in society where there are four

1:33:37

hundred million guns and like why is a different

1:33:39

when an american suddenly turns around

1:33:41

and reaches into the cab of his pickup truck while

1:33:44

getting arrested

1:33:45

then when that happens in japan right

1:33:47

like whether note where there are no guns rex

1:33:50

this is certain is should be such

1:33:52

an easy conversation to have rights

1:33:55

there should be no like says it's like

1:33:58

the ministers is not even

1:33:59

the

1:34:03

it it is is is hard to think of a simpler

1:34:05

one where the facts are easier

1:34:07

to get and the most of the and most

1:34:09

of the stuff is on years so much of the suffers

1:34:11

on videotape the so easy to parse

1:34:15

repeatable year after

1:34:17

year the

1:34:19

problem that everyone unit like it's in

1:34:21

no one's interest that the problem

1:34:23

the bigger than it is enough smaller than it is

1:34:26

like we want we will all i saw this problem

1:34:29

then we

1:34:31

find an apostle talk about the your

1:34:33

problem is some you meditate too much and you're too

1:34:36

small you can

1:34:38

you think other people are like you but they're not

1:34:40

what know that i i so i know like

1:34:42

there's none of this is foreign to me i know what it's like

1:34:44

to get the mostly hijacked

1:34:46

any or something right whether something

1:34:48

happens right in front of you and your over our

1:34:50

ideas are at it you care about the truth and

1:34:52

so you will get mostly hijacked and

1:34:55

then you will go look at the same here most people

1:34:57

just get a muslim how into yeah yeah

1:34:59

so we and we need that is a

1:35:04

that's certainly a software flaw in

1:35:06

are operating system is not a feature and

1:35:09

the away one to were of summarized this

1:35:11

in the past for people's they have a your your capacity

1:35:14

the be offended

1:35:18

is not something that anyone

1:35:20

need or should respect

1:35:23

in you like that's just not this

1:35:25

is not are you certainly on argument but

1:35:27

it's not even a basis for respect like like

1:35:29

that it like table stakes for any ethical

1:35:32

conversation is more

1:35:34

than just your capacity to

1:35:37

be offended

1:35:38

and

1:35:40

until you understand that like is yours not

1:35:45

you can't play the game we need to play

1:35:47

in order to to ensure an open ended

1:35:51

circumstance of cooperation what a

1:35:53

great now to finish on sam harris thank

1:35:55

you so much for coming on we really recommend

1:35:57

you check out sam's podcast and

1:35:59

berlin app we're gonna ask him a couple

1:36:02

of questions from you for you but for

1:36:04

now sam thank you so much for joining us

1:36:06

regular agony and i don't resent it was

1:36:08

see virus in would another brilliant episode i mean what

1:36:10

be quite like this but he will be a burden

1:36:12

episode as well or or so all of

1:36:14

them go out sometime uk time for those of you

1:36:17

who like your trigonometry on the go aid

1:36:19

social venables a podcast take

1:36:21

care and sees

1:36:25

we disagree we didn't have you hang yourself

1:36:29

and how do you have reflects

1:36:32

on the way you thoughts

1:36:34

and spoke about of it about happy with it

1:36:36

i would you have done a different voice

1:36:46

buy one get one for dollar really

1:36:48

does

1:36:49

we like to call it is

1:36:52

that suspicious subsume a grilled

1:36:55

chicken is good

1:36:56

mccain over forty years

1:36:59

give my one gallon

1:37:01

for is one of the city

1:37:03

and has round that's go through choose

1:37:06

more

1:37:12

me very valid for items

1:37:14

or less of a happy ,

1:37:16

xavier university is handling ohio

1:37:19

nursing shirt and getting individuals

1:37:21

with no nursing network network

1:37:23

, into the profession

1:37:26

what are profession studied biology marketing

1:37:29

or anything in between our abs

1:37:31

and program to prepare you for nursing

1:37:33

practice in if you as sixteen nursing

1:37:36

is your hollen now abs

1:37:45

on to apply