0:06

Walkrom Chillions.

0:06

I'm Joe Webber and I'm Eric Balchuna's.

0:12

Eric. We've had a couple of guests on lately,

0:14

but we have not been talking about what's happening in the markets,

0:17

which seems like we should do.

0:19

Yeah, I mean, in a way, it's because nothing

0:21

traumatic has happened, but there's

0:23

always something going on, and that's something is

0:26

all time highs. Like it's almost like so

0:29

peaceful and nice and all time high

0:31

out there, you forget about it. But

0:33

that's a story in itself because

0:36

just seems like also we're in a different

0:38

place than normal. Always felt like last

0:41

time we were in this bull market and all time highs, there

0:43

was this sort of quot wall of worry and

0:45

it was all about how the market kind of would

0:47

deal with that. Doesn't seem like there's a

0:49

lot of things to worry about. So there's like,

0:51

oh, come on.

0:52

There's the threat of nuclear war.

0:56

There's you know, inflation is popped

0:58

back up a little bit. I mean there's like it's not like there isn't

1:00

things.

1:00

To worry about, yeah, but all those things I think

1:02

have been compartmentalized, which brings up one

1:05

of our big themes this year. Which we have athnocs

1:08

on to talk about, which is investors being

1:10

ready for it comfortably bullish.

1:14

Other sell side shops quote Taylor Swift, we quote

1:16

Pink Floyd. You know it's all good. But

1:18

anyway, this idea of not

1:21

just you're not euphoric bullish

1:24

and you're not. It's not a hated bull market.

1:26

It's a comfortable bullishness.

1:28

You know I'm trying to say. But it feels right,

1:31

and the numbness is part of it in that I

1:34

don't think these things you just mentioned. They're

1:36

out there, but they're not as up

1:38

close and present I think

1:40

for the investor psyche right now, I think

1:43

they've written them all off. Obviously, the

1:45

Fed raising rates would be a big deal, but that doesn't

1:47

seem like it's going to happen. And I

1:49

don't even think the market expects Feds the rates

1:51

lower. I think they're okay even if it doesn't get lower.

1:54

So it just seems like there's a comfort

1:56

level here. That might

1:58

be the story that the story or the feeling

2:01

this year is and whether that

2:03

obviously will get disrupted at some point,

2:06

but it just feels pretty smooth right now.

2:08

You guys at Bloomberg Intelligence also

2:10

did an ETF survey.

2:13

We did speaking of bullishness. We

2:15

have a survey that first ever time

2:17

we did it. We've had BBH on who did their own

2:19

survey. We did one. Charles Bond

2:22

from our data group let it completely.

2:24

He deserves all the credit. Great job, and

2:26

we basically got results from

2:29

over fifty people different areas, and we'll go

2:31

over some of those results. Some are what

2:33

you'd expect, some surprises, but

2:35

a lot of bullishness towards ETF's roll.

2:37

And joining us on this episode Athamasio

2:40

Sarah Feagas of Bloomberg Intelligence. He's

2:42

an analyst with Eric to help walk

2:45

us through this moment and

2:47

diservice.

2:50

This time.

2:51

I tryins let the good

2:53

times roll, Athanasios.

2:55

Welcome back, glad to be back.

2:57

The good times are rolling.

2:58

What's going on?

2:58

Yeah, it's they are? You know

3:01

the good thing about you You guys are talking about bushes

3:03

of ETFs. I we've gotten so large, right,

3:05

and there's so many different strategies that we can actually like you

3:08

know, use them as indicators, right, sort of

3:10

form market strength and market sentiment. And

3:13

you know, the market hit all time highs and twenty

3:15

twenty one where at all time highs again, but

3:17

I think the dynamics are very different. And

3:19

Eric had mentioned that earlier about like being

3:22

euphoric, like we're feeling good,

3:24

but we're not overly euphoric, which

3:26

I think is actually a good thing, right, And this is where we came up

3:28

with the term like comfortably bullish. If

3:30

you remember in twenty one, it was all like the meme stocks.

3:32

It was Portnoy's saying stocks only go up,

3:34

like it was craziness. Right, You're not having

3:36

any of that this year, even the world

3:38

all time highs. I feel like we're just in a good spot

3:41

now. It was just Nvidia, Nvidia, Vidia,

3:43

and I feel like every time something happens,

3:46

some company bails out the cues. It's like Nvidia

3:49

or Microsoft, like someone is always

3:51

sort of carrying the market on.

3:53

Does it remind you of like a basketball team

3:55

where like take the Sixers.

3:57

I live in Philly. Sometimes in be just

4:00

isn't feeling it or is injured, and MAXI steps

4:02

up. The Magnificent seven to me is like a

4:04

team and like Tesla, Navidia

4:06

kind of balanced out Tesla and

4:09

they are real players, but they are

4:11

really kind of lifting

4:13

this market up, although there's some people who point

4:15

out its actually more depth than those seven. But certainly,

4:18

I know when Navidia's earnings came out, it did people were

4:20

saying, like the whole world they had memes of

4:22

like Navidia holding up the globe. The

4:25

video seems to be like the new Apple

4:27

in a way in terms of holding the market up,

4:29

but it delivered.

4:30

Yeah, I agree, every like every time if

4:33

every time I log in every morning with the cueser at a

4:35

new time like all time high.

4:38

But I think it kind of makes sense when you look around

4:40

the world or look at other investments. I think it's all about

4:42

like relative right, So

4:45

like if the FED is gonna cut for this

4:47

year, like for money market funds, we already

4:49

know that the best of that is probably behind us. So

4:51

imagine like you already know that that's only going to go down.

4:53

It's like, okay, where am I going to look? China's

4:55

a little rough right now, you know, Like performance

4:57

wise, Europe is a story so

5:00

that you know, seems like it wants to work every year, but

5:02

it doesn't. It just feels like all the roads

5:04

come back to us stocks. It's just

5:06

still sort of the best option out there.

5:09

And if you could, let's talk a little bit about the BI ETF

5:12

greed Fear Indicator, which you created with Charles Bond.

5:15

It's obviously up, but what goes

5:17

into that? What ETF data are you able to use

5:20

for that?

5:20

Yeah? Yeah, big prop To Trials, we sort of

5:22

were hashing out ideas, so we look at a couple of things.

5:24

One is leverage long to short ETF

5:27

like leverage tradings. We look at moving

5:30

average stuff, so we got some technical

5:32

indicators. We look at short interest how

5:34

much people are shorting ETFs, and we

5:36

sort of put that together and we look at it historically

5:38

to itself, and we look back in twenty

5:41

one it got overly bullish, right,

5:43

and then the market corrected a little bit, and then

5:46

this year we're very bullish, but we're

5:48

not at this like U four range, So I actually even

5:50

think it could probably go up a little bit more, Like I think

5:52

we have room to get even more bullish.

5:56

But and when I was talking with Trials,

5:58

that's how we came up with the the word comfortably

6:00

bullish, Like I like pink Floyd and whatnot. But

6:02

we're like, how do you feel, right? I'm like, that's how I feel like. I

6:04

feel good, not too good, but like in a

6:06

good spot. Market keeps going on,

6:09

people are I remember last year when the

6:11

market was going up, flows weren't biting. People

6:13

were still very pessimistic about the market going

6:15

up. I feel like this year, finally it's all aligned.

6:17

The market's going up, the flows are aligning. You

6:20

know, sentiment feels good.

6:21

Can you quantify comfortably

6:23

bullish?

6:25

Uh? Well, we attempted

6:28

to, right, But I think the way we always

6:30

we look at it is just relative to itself.

6:33

So even now we're at

6:35

all time highs, flows weren't as good as they

6:37

were in twenty one, even though we're at a higher level

6:39

than we were. And I feel like when you look at it at

6:41

that flows or leverage, trading spreads,

6:44

or even what kind of ets people

6:46

are allocating to, you

6:48

know, we are bullish,

6:51

but not how we were in twenty

6:53

one. So that's kind of the way we try

6:55

to quantify it. I can give you an arbitrary

6:57

number, say, oh, it's a four, right, but I think

7:00

when you compare it to itself, that's how we sort

7:02

of approach this sentiment indicator.

7:04

And you know, it's interesting. I look at the weekly

7:06

flow chart every week on ETFIQ

7:09

and ivvvu qs VTI

7:11

all at the top right comfortably bullish

7:13

everybody, But there's every like fourth

7:15

week, someone tries to get small caps going,

7:18

like you see IWM there or like bb EU

7:20

Europe. Someone tries

7:23

to be like early on the shift

7:26

or the regime change, and they just

7:28

get rolled over. And I've seen it happen over and over,

7:30

and I think everybody out there knows

7:32

that at some point the regime will change.

7:35

But how many times can you get run

7:37

over before you just stop

7:39

trying? And I think I've seen in the flows

7:42

there's less and less of that those

7:44

attempts. And maybe when there are

7:46

no tempts at all, ever, you know, we're

7:48

just like weeks and weeks where nobody's trying.

7:51

Maybe that's when it turns, and that's when it's like a bubble

7:53

where even a little pin can pop it.

7:55

But small caps. You know,

7:57

we had a not Doubt that talked about this, and in

8:00

this case we reference mean girls droll

8:02

the market to ETF investors stopped

8:04

trying to make small caps happen, you

8:06

know, because they tried over and over and

8:08

over. And I talk with Gena Martin Adams are

8:11

macro stentagist my boss about this, and she

8:13

brought up a good point. A if a company

8:15

gets really good and they're small, they get like

8:18

drafted up, like all of a sudden, they're a mid or

8:20

a large and they're gone. So you lose them

8:22

like a college to the NBA, and

8:24

then more companies when the IPO now are going

8:26

right to the large, they're already big, so

8:29

that the pool of hotness in the

8:31

small cap area is also down. And so

8:33

I think this idea that it has

8:35

to change. There are reasons

8:37

where it could be a little more secular than cyclical.

8:41

I'm just thinking about how different now

8:44

is compared to twenty

8:46

twenty one, when the last time that there was this fever.

8:48

I guess, and boy, there's

8:51

a world of difference between those two

8:53

markets. How is that reflected

8:55

and how is it showing up not only in the flows,

8:58

but you know what sectors theos

9:00

are going into.

9:01

Yeah, so I'd say the first thing that's stuck

9:03

out we observed and I know this is it

9:06

sounds a little obvious, but more

9:08

allocations towards the US. I feel like in the

9:10

twenty twenty one money was getting allocated

9:12

all over the world, like Europe was taking some flows

9:15

China. This year it's just all US, and it's

9:17

US from other regions. There

9:19

was even this issue in China. And the

9:21

thing is the Chinese investors were trying to buy the queue

9:23

so fast that they had to close the fund

9:26

in China, right, So they weren't buying Chinese stocks or buying

9:28

US stocks. So if you actually look globally,

9:30

I think a big difference is everything's going even

9:33

more so into the US. The

9:36

other thing is we have higher rates,

9:38

right, So now I think what

9:41

the important thing was for this year is that we showed that we

9:43

could live in this like five percent rate world,

9:45

right.

9:45

Which I would have assumed looked like a gold shower

9:47

almost, But here we.

9:48

Are, yeah, for sure. And I don't know if people maybe

9:51

expected it or I think they've kind of expected the market

9:53

to go down, and you know, it was pretty violle on twenty

9:55

twenty two, but now it's like, you know what we've

9:58

we went through that we're fine, we can handle it,

10:00

right, and now we sort of know that

10:02

the Fed's already made it clear that at some point they're

10:04

gonna cut right, so you

10:07

know, so I think we have a lot of those uncertainties

10:10

behind us. I know there's an election coming up

10:12

this year and whatnot that at all No could maybe

10:14

you know, derail this a little bit. But

10:16

I think it's just we've learned to live in this higher

10:19

rate environment.

10:21

Yeah, it was interesting those big growthy

10:24

sort of Magnificent seven companies.

10:26

One thing that impressed me was they went up last

10:28

year and rates were up,

10:31

like there were supposed to be companies that didn't work

10:33

in higher rate environments. But then you look at

10:35

some of these companies, unlike maybe some of the arcstocks,

10:38

these companies have a lot of cash on hand, like they can absorb

10:41

a lot. They're not like high growth, no profit

10:43

kind of companies. The other thing about the Magnificent

10:46

Seven that Sam Rowe pointed out on

10:48

Twitter. He was talking

10:50

about how if you take one of them, there's

10:52

actually three or four even five companies

10:55

in there that could be like smaller mid caps or even large

10:58

caps like YouTube to me, could

11:00

be its own company, a large cap probably.

11:02

I mean it's taken over TV and

11:04

it's just one part of Google. Right. So you

11:07

go down the list and you see these companies are made

11:09

up of many, many companies, So maybe

11:12

it's the magnificent fifty honestly, and

11:14

not just the seven. What do you think of that? Droll?

11:17

Lena conn would have it that way for sure if

11:20

she got to do some due overs.

11:23

And look, I mean it does speak to why

11:26

the cues are the cues, Like I think if you

11:28

knock those companies out, like they're just more

11:31

que candidates.

11:32

Really right, And then when you look at the rest of

11:34

the world, and this sounds so US centric, but you

11:37

know, where are these companies in

11:39

other countries? I know sometimes people

11:41

like, well there might be one or two, but we

11:43

have like a dozen. You know, we have many of

11:45

these and it's hard

11:47

to capture that. And it's tough

11:50

the people coming over from China and Europe, drole.

11:53

What I worry about in China particular is their market

11:55

just went down two years in a row, and they're like

11:57

at the bottom, that's when you should actually buy

11:59

in, but they're leaving to come here

12:01

to buy at the top. Yeah, that's this is like

12:03

has pain written all over in my opinion, But

12:06

I just feel like this could end in tears stroll. You know

12:08

that that movement usually doesn't work out

12:10

well and It's a shame too, because those

12:12

investors are you know, they're just the fomo

12:15

is that bad? You know,

12:17

it's like they've lost

12:19

their minds.

12:21

Well they're uncomfortably well

12:24

no, well.

12:24

Yeah, they want to be comfort They're

12:26

coming over here to have that good feeling.

12:29

Yeah, I agree. I think fifty four percent of

12:31

the cues last year was not expected. I

12:33

think that messed with people's minds, right, Like

12:35

every strategist was not bullish

12:37

last year, right, everyone missed. Now all of a sudden,

12:40

everyone's bringing up their targets, like fomo is a

12:42

real thing, right, and

12:44

it was working when a time was not supposed

12:46

to work, and now it is supposed to work, and

12:48

you know, and I think that is keeping

12:51

people coming back into the equity market.

12:54

And I think if if someone's out there listening, it's

12:56

like, what do you do? Go into more US equities? You

12:58

know, most advisors were probably advise you to

13:00

rebalance actually, which is to

13:03

you know, rebalance into what has not

13:05

done well. And we see some

13:07

of that. It's not like the places we're saying have no flows, but

13:10

generally speaking, people are leaning into US equities

13:13

and this is opposite. Last

13:15

year Athan was on this time last year,

13:17

and what we were talking about was the US market was up, but nobody's

13:19

buying in there were no flows. We called the fomo

13:21

drought. So comfort bullish is

13:23

the new fomo drought. M what

13:26

will be next year? God, please help

13:28

us because everything's gone to Yeah,

13:32

that's a little long. I've the toile tightened that up on.

13:35

That is just.

13:37

To go through some albums and come up with a good title

13:39

for next year.

13:48

Okay, so you guys had this Bloomberg

13:50

Intelligence survey of

13:54

whom and what was the what were you

13:56

trying to figure out?

13:58

Yeah, look, well we got a little fomo

14:01

because other people were doing these surveys and

14:03

Charles Bond on our team, who works in data

14:05

in Europe, said we should do our own

14:07

and I said, yeah, I've always want to do it, but I've never had the resources.

14:10

Now we do, we have, you know, the teams bigger. So

14:12

he basically went through all the hurdles and

14:14

there are a lot to get a survey downe a bi

14:17

Normally, Joel, when I surveyed people, I just go to Twitter

14:19

to a poll and I know in like eight minutes what

14:21

the people think. But that's not as official

14:23

and I can't really put that into a nice formal note.

14:25

So we polled about I think

14:28

it was over fifty people, financial advisors,

14:30

individuals and institutions, and

14:32

they were all over the world, and we basically

14:35

largely in North American and Europe. But

14:37

we basically asked some a bunch of questions and then we put those

14:39

in the notes, and there were a couple big takeaways. Do

14:42

you want to go over the takeaways or do you want to hone

14:44

in on a couple notes, Let's do the takeaway,

14:46

okay? Effect me the big

14:48

takeaways Active

14:51

is back. I've seen these surveys

14:54

for years and years, and one

14:56

thing that was clear was that there's much

14:58

more openness to Active. And I think this

15:00

is because active's gotten cheaper. And I think it's

15:02

because twenty twenty one was

15:04

rough and people sixteen the forty went

15:07

down and people were like a little more open to

15:09

Active. So I think it's good for Active. Sometimes

15:11

these surveys are a little bit recncy bias. You know, actors

15:13

had a good year, but clear that's good news for Active.

15:15

That was one of our takeaways. Thematic

15:18

Equity ranked number one

15:20

in what would you like to see more of discretionary

15:23

active was two. But thematic and

15:26

we've always been bullish on thematics because it's a great

15:28

compliment to cheap beta. It's not competing with it. You

15:30

can just add a little theme on top of your cheap

15:32

beta. You don't disturb all the serious

15:35

thoughts. You can have a little fun. So thematic equity

15:37

did better than I thought in terms of what

15:39

people want to see more of and what

15:42

really did not do well. No surprises, ESG.

15:45

That's fallen down. It ranked below money

15:47

market funds in terms of what you want to see, and nobody wants

15:49

to see much from money market funds, right, that's pretty

15:51

boring. It was like number seventh eighth in the list, So there's

15:54

a shifting going on in some

15:56

of the you know, sort of more non

15:58

beta areas. So that

16:00

would be probably the biggest takeaway. But there was a

16:02

couple other little ones in here that we can go over.

16:05

Ethan, what jumped out at you in this survey.

16:08

One thing that was interesting was how investors

16:10

are picking ETFs and some of the criteria

16:12

that they're looking at. So one thing I thought was really interesting.

16:14

We had asked what is the minimum asset

16:16

threshold? You want before you buy an ETF,

16:19

and like more than half was less than

16:21

thirty million. Some had no minimum threshold

16:23

at all.

16:24

A lot.

16:24

So I thought that it shows a lot of progress

16:27

in the investor right, and that they're not just

16:29

looking at the big products with the big

16:31

assets. They're looking at a lot of

16:33

interesting ideas, right, and products a lot

16:35

of some of the more interesting ones are small, they're

16:37

new, they're coming from smaller issuers. So

16:39

I'd like to see that the investors were looking

16:41

at smaller ETFs, and I think

16:43

it shows that they understand the products more

16:46

and all they work. Right.

16:47

Yeah, that was a chakra for me because

16:50

over the years we come up with a field

16:52

implied liquidity which is based on Dave Abner's

16:54

formula from his book The ETF Handbook,

16:57

and that just tells you how liquid the basket

16:59

is. Because if you're out there listening and you're looking

17:01

at ETFs and you look at the volume, it's good to have volume.

17:04

That's really great. You can trade those all

17:06

day. But there's new ets for example, they don't

17:08

have a lot of volume. But if the if

17:11

market makers in the market, when they see orders come in

17:13

for an ETF, they don't look at the

17:15

actual ETF. They look at the basket because

17:17

if they're going to sell you the ETF, I'm just going to give

17:19

you shares of, say ARC, since it's

17:21

come up a bunch of times, Well I'm

17:23

now short ARC. Well I'm going to go and

17:25

buy the basket of the of the stocks

17:28

because later I've got to go hand in the

17:30

basket to the issuer and get the shares

17:32

back. So I'm flat again. So in order to sell

17:34

you ARC, I've got to go get the basket

17:37

of stocks. So if the basket of stocks is a

17:39

liquid I should be able to give you a good

17:41

deal, even if ARC doesn't

17:43

trade a lot. And that's generally why

17:45

imply liquidity works most

17:47

in a stock you don't have that. The liquidity on

17:49

the screen is all there is. But with an ETF,

17:52

because you can do creations of redemptions by handing

17:54

in the basket for more shares of the

17:56

ETF, the basket liquidity is

17:58

just as usable. And so in the

18:00

first book I wrote, which you know, that's

18:02

how we met, you

18:05

know, implied liquidity to me is the key to unlocking

18:07

the toolbox and using more ETFs

18:09

beyond the most popular ones you can go deep.

18:12

There are like a handful of ETFs that have neither

18:14

high volume, they have low volume and low implied

18:16

liquidity. Like for example, I shares

18:18

Columbia local Columbia

18:20

stocks. It doesn't trade a lot, the stocks

18:23

don't trade a lot. That's a case where you're

18:25

going to have to pay up in a big spread. But

18:27

if you have one or the other, you should

18:29

demand tight spreads in your trading. And I think

18:31

that's the takeaway here that people are getting, Okay.

18:34

What else helped out you?

18:36

The one about would always say,

18:38

Okay, when you're on this selection criteria,

18:40

what are some of the things you're looking at, like size,

18:43

expense ratio, performance, And

18:45

I think the one that came up first was past performance,

18:47

which is really interesting and I think.

18:49

Yeah, that was weird to me because it's like, obviously

18:51

past performance not indicative

18:53

of future performance.

18:55

Yeah, exactly. And expensaraition I

18:57

think was second. So I don't know again

18:59

if there's some regency bias because of the market has

19:01

been up, but I think as expensory show

19:03

goes down, that's probably ultimately a good

19:05

thing, right. It means that the market is very

19:08

it's at a low point cost wise, right, So

19:10

we're starting to look at other things besides just expense

19:13

rics. We're looking at branding, we're looking at performance,

19:15

looking at liquidity. So

19:18

that was really interesting that perform I don't know if I

19:21

agree that Performers should be the top one, but I thought it was

19:23

interesting that expense ratio had moved down

19:25

on the list.

19:26

Well, that's one what I jumped on

19:28

for Active. I thought that was a sign

19:30

that Active was getting more looks

19:32

at the point because you would look at past performance

19:34

if you're picking an Active manager. But to your

19:37

point, you know, when you came

19:39

out with that chart

19:41

that showed that over half of the ETFs

19:44

now DROLL are in funds that are less than

19:46

ten basis points. And if

19:48

you look at smart Beta you see the same cost migration.

19:51

Even ESG before it kind of went and the gutter

19:53

had this cost migration. Everything

19:56

goes through this crucible and Active

19:58

just went through it. And there's three or four issuers

20:00

that are leading this low cost Active charge.

20:03

So I think once expense ratio

20:05

gets below a point where they're

20:07

not going to care if it's five to six bass points different,

20:10

but they just give me a good deal.

20:12

And then after that I can just start looking at other things.

20:14

So Active was the last thing to go

20:16

through this, but now that it's gone through, I think

20:18

to your point, expense ratios can probably

20:20

gonna fall down because it's gonna be given that it's cheap.

20:23

And I think that's what we're seeing. And one more

20:25

chart to riff off of the active is have

20:28

you increased your exposure to actively manage gtfs?

20:30

In the last twelve months, thirty five percent

20:32

said yes to equity ETFs and

20:34

thirty percent to bond ETFs. Normally,

20:37

bond active had been the main place

20:39

to go active in ETFs. I mean it had like probably

20:41

ten to one assets for a while, but

20:43

equity has finally caught up. So the fact

20:46

that equity active beat bond active is

20:48

big deal, good sign for

20:50

the industry, but again it's also

20:52

part of it's a mixed

20:54

blessing. It's good they want it, but

20:57

I think a lot of managers are going to have to go through the crew

21:00

ucible of you know, adjusting their fees

21:02

to this new sort of lower fee era,

21:05

but over time the flows

21:07

should make up for it. So I think

21:09

that's what we're going to continue to see how much

21:11

of.

21:11

That do you think is rooted in the

21:14

transparency that an ETF provides,

21:17

like the fact that you can actually see what the product

21:19

holds and the

21:21

prices come down. That, to me, together

21:24

is perhaps why

21:26

the numbers are what they are.

21:28

Transparency I would put as maybe the third advantage,

21:32

But I think it matters. I think, you

21:34

know, I think ARC showed this ARC put it's

21:36

all its holdings out. It tells you what it trades every day. I mean,

21:38

it's like out loud and proud. I'm

21:40

like, here's what I do. And a lot of managers

21:43

look at that as showing their hand or their IP, and

21:45

Kathy really made all that look a little silly.

21:48

And I think, unless you're a gigantic one hundred

21:50

billion dollar fund front running shouldn't be too big

21:53

of a fear. So what we found is the

21:55

active non transparent ETFs came out and

21:57

they flopped. The active

22:00

transparent came out they did well,

22:02

But there is you can't just correlate

22:04

that. The reason is if you look at the act of not transparent,

22:07

they were also more expensive. My

22:09

thesis on this is that if you're the kind of person

22:12

who thinks your IP is so special

22:14

that like your percent weight in Amazon

22:17

is so much, it's like so valuable.

22:19

Because you're a genius, you're more likely

22:22

to charge more, Whereas if you're

22:24

somebody who has a little more of a

22:26

perspective, you're one of like a

22:28

thousand active managers and we're all

22:30

trying our best. Here, I'll show you what I hold,

22:33

You're more likely to charge a lower fee. So

22:35

I found that the transparency usually is linked

22:38

more with people who are

22:40

willing to charge less, And

22:42

that's why I think we can't totally

22:44

untangle it being a transparent versus

22:46

non but certainly I think it helps.

22:49

Yeah. Agree, I think people like to see it. Like I

22:51

think in video is a perfect case, the stock's

22:53

been running up. I bet you everyon would go in and say,

22:55

is this manager holding a via? Okay, they're

22:57

holding it, and if they're not, I feel like, like why

22:59

they not? Video?

23:00

Right?

23:01

So I think whether or not people want to use a

23:03

transparency is a different question. But I

23:05

think people like to see it, especially

23:07

when it comes like a hot stock like that.

23:10

All right, let's close it out. I

23:13

heard you might have some humor for me.

23:15

Yeah, So we asked two questions at the end

23:17

that just were just a little off, open ended,

23:20

kind of like creative, and so one of them was describe

23:23

the ETF market in two words or less you

23:26

got Why don't you guys guess? Can you guess? Like, just

23:28

give me a word you think is in here? A lot?

23:31

Or how would you describe it growing?

23:34

Wow? Dude, that's like the number one answer. This

23:37

is family feud. You're going right back. Don't even

23:39

need to hear anybody else.

23:42

How fast is it growing? I guess I guess you could have

23:44

an adjective in front of it.

23:47

Yeah, but I mean, honestly, growth

23:49

or growing was like twenty

23:52

percent of the answers, by

23:54

far the most popular. Why don't you guess?

23:56

Now?

23:57

I mean I saw could I maybe say the one I

23:59

like?

23:59

Oh yeah, oh say the one you like?

24:01

It was the investor Nirvana.

24:02

Yeah.

24:03

That that's a little that's very

24:05

specific, and it's true, right, there's three thousand

24:07

plus products. There's literally anything Eric

24:09

mentioned Colombia where you want, you know, access

24:12

to oil or bitcoin now whatever, it's literally

24:14

it's just it's paradise from an investor

24:16

perspective.

24:16

And if we go with like synonyms for growing or the spirit

24:19

of growing, we've got booming uh,

24:22

fantastic, fast, great,

24:25

get getting saturated, holy cow

24:27

with a question mark. That was interesting,

24:30

irreversible trend just

24:32

the beginning, mature and growing. Here's

24:36

a couple that were interesting. Narrow, oversaturated,

24:42

transparent, cheap wild without

24:45

alternatives. So yeah,

24:47

a lot of optimism, a couple of little digs

24:49

in there, like narrow. I think some people do worry

24:51

it's getting too crazy and

24:53

niche and gimmick me.

24:54

The moment you wrap bitcoin and ATF

24:56

it's like okay.

24:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, what happened to

24:59

my street? Yeah?

25:01

Uh so what was the last?

25:02

Uh? I would say, what have they done to

25:04

my son?

25:06

My boy?

25:06

They massacred my boy? Okay,

25:09

ye'll only like on our team, like seven

25:11

out of ten people will not get that, but they should.

25:14

They should. Everyone needs to watch that movie.

25:16

I know. There's a couple movies that you need

25:18

when you enter the like work, just

25:21

three or four. I'm will glad to listen

25:23

to arras Taylor Swift albums as

25:25

a trade off.

25:27

Wow, Taylor Swift Down is pretty good.

25:29

The Godfather is it?

25:31

No?

25:31

Yeah, there's a decent trade off. Okay,

25:34

all right, and and your

25:36

final moment is in okay because

25:38

it leads to the final question in this podcast,

25:40

which is what's favorite ticker? Okay,

25:42

so we got everybody's favorite ticker? Okay,

25:45

okay, so what do you what

25:47

do you think the number one answer was, Remember

25:50

this is across Europe too.

25:52

I was gonna say, I mean, move comes up more than

25:54

anything else. Did move make a showing move?

25:56

Had two?

25:57

Okay, that's pretty good.

25:58

I mean that'd be like the fifth answer, so

26:01

we would have if it were family feud, that would

26:03

register. But like low hack in there. Hack

26:05

was in there, but also a little low. You

26:08

have to think a lot of people just aren't that creative.

26:11

Yeah, I mean spy yeah

26:13

number one, yes, that

26:19

or people were like, look, I just filled out your nineteen

26:21

questions. I'll just get the hell out of here.

26:23

Yeah, it's like the last one, like nineteen out

26:25

of nineteen.

26:26

Yeah, dude, I'm not thinking. I'm not thinking anymore

26:28

for you. Okay, spy out, Robo

26:31

got an answer, Weed got

26:34

one l e

26:37

E L l e FP. I

26:39

guess that's like the magazine li CEFS.

26:43

I bet that's the person who that person might actually work

26:46

there. Cow's got one c O

26:48

w Z cars cath jep

26:51

Q got one J and

26:53

K. Somebody picked jps

26:55

T. Come on, I.

26:57

Guess about creative tickers like

26:59

ones that they like.

27:01

It's his favorite ETF ticker not managed

27:03

by your firm. There is no way somebody picked

27:05

JPST. What happened is they

27:07

probably that was the last one they invested in or something, and

27:09

again they were just like, my brain is, I'm just done.

27:11

I mean, I still think direction kind of

27:13

is the best in this. They got gush

27:16

drip deposit withdrawal. Yeah,

27:18

they have so many.

27:19

The problem is most srmal people aren't dabbling

27:21

with those sort of rated R products, but

27:23

certainly they've got the best ones. My well,

27:26

my Yin and Yang I think are legendary.

27:29

It's a three x China inverse.

27:31

Somebody put those in there.

27:32

No but to me like that, I would pick something

27:34

like that probably, but there was no levers in here at all. And

27:38

J and K got a mention mx

27:40

US power. That's pretty interesting,

27:43

even though they're not.

27:44

I think Cows is sort of like a

27:47

like a cousin of Mu.

27:50

Yeah.

27:50

I agree. I think live Stock

27:53

did well. Yeah, if you add

27:55

all the live stock, I think it might tie Spy. So

27:57

there you go. I think that's the takeaway people like

27:59

cows.

28:00

Joel Anthan, thanks for joining us on Trillion,

28:02

Thanks for having me, Thanks

28:08

for listening to Trillions until next

28:10

time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal,

28:13

Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts,

28:15

Spotify, or wherever else you'd

28:17

like to listen. We'd love to hear from you

28:20

more on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webber

28:22

Show. He's at Eric Baltuna's.

28:26

This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus

28:28

and Rickson.

28:29

Bye