0:00

This is Below Deck's Captain Lee. Listen

0:02

to my new podcast, Salty with

0:05

Captain Lee.

0:06

Um, don't you mean our podcast?

0:09

Uh, yeah, I guess

0:11

I do. Anyhow, listen to Salty

0:13

with Captain Lee co-hosted by my assistant,

0:15

Sam. And we will be talking

0:18

about the latest pop culture news and

0:20

all the gossip every week.

0:23

So does this mean

0:24

we have to talk by ourselves, about

0:26

ourselves, or can we at least have some

0:28

guests on? I don't know. I find myself

0:30

pretty interesting. But yeah, we can have

0:32

some guests on, some of our reality

0:35

TV friends, and some stars.

0:37

Works

0:37

for me. Listen to Salty

0:40

now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

0:42

or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00

So

1:19

hello everyone and welcome to episode 330

1:22

of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast.

1:25

I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always

1:27

is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby,

1:29

how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about yourself? I'm

1:32

doing very well. I said on TCAT that

1:34

I'm having a great week. That's

1:35

good. Just a great week. And,

1:38

um, I don't always say that.

1:40

I can't always say it. You can't. But I'm being

1:42

honest now. Well, I'm glad you're being honest. Speaking

1:45

of TCAT, we have our 350th

1:49

episode

1:50

out right now,

1:52

and it's on Gary Ridgway,

1:54

the Green River Killer. Very good. Yeah.

1:56

It's a case that a lot of people have asked

1:58

us to do over the years. And so we picked

2:01

it for the big three five. Oh, yeah

2:03

and on patreon what we do We played a new

2:06

game. Yeah called the Gibby movie game.

2:08

Yeah, it was very entertaining Where

2:10

you knock it out of the ballpark? No, you did not But

2:13

it involved two of your favorite things movies

2:17

and money. Yeah, I'll leave it at that

2:19

Let's go ahead and give our patreon shout outs.

2:21

We had Sophia Rebde. Hey

2:23

Sophia

2:24

Abigail Blom. Hey, thanks Abigail Suzanne

2:27

quarter. What's going on Suzanne CR Hey

2:29

CR Kelly. Hey Kelly

2:32

Aaron H. Hey appreciate that

2:34

a Ron. Hey

2:35

a Ron Corey Odenbaugh

2:38

What's going on? Cory Mary Gordon? Hey

2:40

Mary Wanda Addis. There's Wanda

2:42

Stacey Monk Well, hi Stacey

2:44

Evo Evo Can't

2:47

forget Evo Gabby Scully. Hey,

2:49

Gabby Robbie Brown. What's happening Robbie Holly

2:52

Burgess? There's Holly Kathleen frat.

2:54

She ate that Kathleen Anthony Valentine

2:57

Valentin Kitty cat

2:59

what's up kitty Holly? Hey Holly

3:01

and last but not least Ashtastic

3:04

and peach jumped out at our highest level

3:06

what a combo as Tastic in a peach

3:09

and I really have to say that first one slowly

3:11

Exactly as to not mess it up.

3:14

And then if we go back into the vault This

3:17

week we selected Tracy Evan. Thank

3:19

you Tracy. Yeah. Thanks for all the new support

3:22

to continued support We had a couple of great

3:24

PayPal donations from McCabe's

3:26

costumes. Hey, thanks McCabe's and

3:28

George Skybar. Well, I appreciate that George Yeah,

3:31

thanks to everyone. All

3:32

right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this?

3:35

330th episode of true crime all

3:37

the time unsolved. It's

3:38

a big number. You know that 330. Yeah. Yeah 350 was

3:43

a big number. We talked about that on T cap to put

3:45

them together. What do you have? 680 and

3:48

you're almost as good as me and Matt almost

3:51

We are talking about the unsolved murder

3:54

of Beverly J. Potter men

3:57

in February 1987 the

3:59

young

3:59

mother named Beverly J. Potter-Mence

4:02

was brutally murdered inside her own

4:04

home. Her two-year-old son witnessed

4:07

the murder, but all he could say was

4:09

that a man came inside and hurt his

4:11

mother. Investigators were stumped.

4:14

Beverly J. had no known enemies, and

4:16

it seemed like all the initial suspects

4:19

had an alibi. Investigators

4:21

thought that the killer was drawn to her house

4:24

because of a classified ad she

4:26

had recently placed in the local paper.

4:29

Beverly J. Potter-Mence was born

4:31

on December 5, 1963. Everyone

4:35

who knew her called her J. J.

4:37

married William Allen-Mence on

4:39

November 26, 1982. According

4:42

to Find a Grave, they had two children

4:44

together. Their oldest, BJ,

4:47

was four years old when his mother was killed,

4:50

and their youngest, Andrew, was almost

4:52

two. Just toddlers. Yeah,

4:54

very, very small. J. and

4:56

William separated in 1986.

4:58

She lived in a house in Leland,

5:01

North Carolina, suburb of Wilmington.

5:04

J. was working as a waitress at a restaurant

5:06

in Wilmington and had recently

5:08

started dating again. She was close

5:11

with her family, especially her sister

5:13

Jill. As an adult, Jill

5:15

lived in Colorado. When she and Jay

5:17

tried to talk as often as they could, it

5:20

was expensive to make long-distance

5:22

calls back then, so they wrote letters

5:25

to each other. Man, how time has changed.

5:27

I know. I don't even know

5:29

how many people will remember that.

5:32

That it actually was super

5:34

expensive to call

5:36

someone outside of your

5:38

area code. I

5:39

mean, if you think about it, if things were

5:41

still that way today, there's a good

5:44

percentage of relationships that would not exist.

5:46

Oh, yeah. Because there's no way they

5:48

could, right? No one's going to

5:50

have a relationship through

5:53

snail mail or occasionally

5:55

having a phone conversation when

5:58

everybody's used to instant mess-up. messaging

6:00

today.

6:01

Well, and with some cell phone

6:03

plans, almost all of them,

6:05

you know, just, you just make a

6:07

call. Yeah. You don't worry about the cost

6:10

because there is none. Exactly. And

6:13

even that has changed, right? I remember, you know, cell

6:15

phones back in the day, it was like, I

6:18

think at one time I had 30 minutes

6:21

a month or something like that.

6:23

During certain times too. And you could only use them

6:25

during certain times or they cost extra.

6:27

I mean, it's just amazing. Jill

6:30

told Dateline, she was kindhearted

6:32

in a good person and loved her kids. I

6:35

can't think of anyone who didn't like her. Why

6:38

someone would want to do this to

6:40

her is unimaginable. And

6:42

don't we ask that question a lot?

6:44

Why do

6:45

killers hurt

6:46

these innocent people?

6:48

Well, we ask it a lot, but also the

6:50

families of these

6:52

victims ask that question as

6:54

well. I mean, her sister

6:56

saying, this is a good person. She

6:59

was nice to everyone. She didn't have

7:01

enemies. Why would

7:04

someone want to kill her?

7:05

That's hard to struggle with because I think you're reaching

7:07

for a reason, right? You want to know

7:09

like there had to be a reason. Surely

7:12

someone didn't do this just because. Well,

7:14

we've talked about it many times, but a

7:17

lot of families have said, right? The

7:19

not knowing is

7:22

one of the hardest parts, whether

7:24

that's not knowing where a person

7:26

is, if they've disappeared or

7:29

not knowing who

7:32

murdered their loved one or why

7:35

it

7:35

happened. I

7:36

think those are all tough things

7:38

to grapple with. Jay

7:40

was also close with her cousin, Renee

7:42

Braswell. They grew up together in

7:45

Leland. Renee told Dateline that

7:47

Jay was quiet and shy, but her personality

7:51

came out around people who

7:53

knew her.

7:53

She was living in Dallas at the time Jay

7:56

was murdered, but she visited often. She

7:58

mentioned that her biggest.

7:59

regret

8:00

was not answering a phone call from

8:03

Jay the day before she was

8:05

killed. And so there's two things there

8:07

for me. One is that I've

8:09

known a lot of people who

8:12

were very quiet and shy until they either

8:16

got to know you or they got

8:18

to know the group that they were in. And

8:20

then they, you could kind of see their personality

8:23

come out. Yeah. They start opening up. Yep.

8:25

And I do think there are a lot of people like that.

8:28

And then the second one is this

8:31

regret slash guilt

8:33

that we often talk about in episodes,

8:36

whether it's, you know, what you said

8:39

to someone before they left the house. Yeah.

8:42

And they ultimately were murdered

8:45

or, you know, died in an accident. Those

8:47

are your last words and they weren't kind. No.

8:50

You're going to have regret. They're going to haunt you. You

8:52

know, her friend is saying she didn't answer

8:54

a phone call and then that would

8:57

have been her last chance to talk to Jay

8:59

before she was murdered. Yeah. I get

9:02

that, that you're going to have to live with

9:04

that, but all of that stuff

9:06

is. Routine. We,

9:08

that happens all the time. It does.

9:11

It's just that most of us, when we do

9:13

those things,

9:15

don't have someone that

9:17

dies. Yeah.

9:18

Right after whatever it is, we

9:20

can't pick up the phone or we're not home to answer

9:23

the phone or we get in a fight with someone,

9:25

you know, have a spat. I

9:27

mean, you call me an asshole about every time I leave

9:29

here, but I kill, you know, I still come back.

9:33

Worry about it after I leave. But if you didn't, I would feel

9:36

really bad about it. As you should.

9:38

Laura Hobbs, Jay's aunt told WWAYTV

9:42

that Jay was real shy. She was real

9:44

sweet, pretty. She was beautiful.

9:47

She also said that she was a great mother

9:50

and she loved her boys. So like

9:52

we often hear,

9:54

you know, people

9:55

saying. Just great things

9:58

about a person.

9:59

you know, who is murdered.

10:02

And I used to say, well, what else

10:04

are people going to say? They're not going to bad mouth,

10:07

a murder victim. But in

10:09

a few episodes we've had fairly recently,

10:11

we have seen where people have

10:13

said less than flattering things

10:16

about people who have been murdered

10:18

or have gone missing a few

10:20

months before the murder, Jay's cousin,

10:22

Angela, and her young daughter moved

10:25

in with her.

10:25

Angela said that Jay was receiving

10:28

unwanted attention from men.

10:30

Well, some men just don't get the hint.

10:32

No. And I think this is something that

10:35

a lot of women have to deal with. You

10:38

know, unwanted attention,

10:40

unwanted advances,

10:43

men trying to get them to go out with them,

10:45

they won't leave them alone. Like

10:47

you said, they don't get the hint. They won't take

10:49

no for an answer. According to Dateline,

10:52

one man wrote, I love you, Jay,

10:54

in their gravel driveway. Another

10:57

man left a red rose for her at the restaurant

10:59

she worked at.

11:00

Now,

11:01

nothing criminal here,

11:03

but again, what does unwanted

11:06

attention mean? And I think

11:08

there are definitely

11:10

varying levels, right?

11:13

From

11:14

someone's asked me out multiple times

11:17

to all the way up to stalker

11:20

type behavior. Right. You know, writing,

11:22

I love you and gravel. It's up there.

11:25

Yeah, it could be viewed that way. Yeah. Good.

11:27

We don't know what else that person did, but

11:30

it was said that Jay was always kind

11:32

to these men. Shortly before her

11:34

murder, Jay placed a classified

11:36

ad in local paper to advertise

11:39

a water bed she wanted to sell.

11:41

The paper was giving away one free

11:44

ad per customer per week.

11:46

So what Jay did was she

11:48

placed one ad using her

11:50

phone number,

11:51

but the water bed didn't sell quickly. So

11:54

she placed another ad using her mother,

11:57

Laureen's number so that she could

11:59

get a second.

11:59

free ad. Hey, smart. Hey,

12:02

you know, game the system a little bit.

12:04

I get it. You know, it also kind of

12:06

tells you what time we're in. Yeah.

12:09

I don't know how many people

12:11

use the paper anymore.

12:13

The place, I know they still probably have classified

12:15

ads, but there's so many avenues

12:18

now,

12:18

every Facebook market. Yeah.

12:21

Every, you know, seems

12:23

like every local town has their own marketplace

12:27

or Facebook thing or, or whatever

12:29

there is waterbed.com. No,

12:32

Jay started receiving strange and harassing

12:35

calls from unidentified men

12:37

after she placed the ad. These calls

12:40

were sexual in nature. According to dayline,

12:42

both Jay and Angela were victims of

12:44

the harassment depending on

12:47

who answered the phone.

12:48

And to me, that was always the danger

12:51

of placing an ad because

12:54

most likely you were going to have to give out your

12:57

telephone. Yeah. You're opening yourself up somewhat.

13:00

Whereas today you can

13:02

make a Gmail.com

13:05

email that

13:07

really has very little connection to you

13:09

whatsoever and converse

13:12

back and forth with a prospective buyer

13:15

that way. Yeah. Now at some point,

13:18

yes, that person is probably going

13:20

to want to come see the item,

13:22

but you're not going to be getting calls

13:25

with heavy breathing and stuff like that. Yeah.

13:27

I'm just wondering what drove the, you know, did they

13:30

just dial the number to see if it was a female or a

13:32

male or were they thinking because

13:34

it said waterbed that it was their opportunity

13:36

to make sexual harassment

13:38

kind of

13:39

calls. I

13:40

don't know. Are you asking me to get in the mind

13:43

of some of these

13:44

very strange perverted individuals?

13:46

Cause it's really hard to, I know, but

13:48

I was just making that attempt. I don't, I don't

13:50

know why most of the people

13:53

that we talk about do what they do. Now,

13:55

is this before caller ID? Cause

13:57

I don't actually remember. When

14:00

caller ID

14:01

came around, I think it

14:04

was after really. Yeah. So

14:07

maybe she didn't have caller ID

14:09

or maybe she did. And they

14:11

just put up with the calls as

14:13

opposed to reporting them. I

14:16

don't know. Or maybe they did the star

14:18

or something, something to

14:20

block their number.

14:21

A week before Jay was killed, Angela

14:23

noticed that she seemed upset. Jay

14:25

told her she had a dream about

14:28

a stranger trying to kill

14:30

her. Angela told Dateline after

14:33

she was killed, I couldn't shake

14:35

what she said. It's like she

14:37

knew something was about to happen. That's

14:40

freaky. It is. It's a little spine

14:42

tingling because it's almost

14:45

as if she had a premonition and foreshadowing.

14:48

And I know somebody that can, you know, they, they foresee

14:50

some things,

14:51

but it's not like this and

14:54

it's scary to think if someone said, man, I

14:56

had this dream last night that a stranger

14:59

killed me.

15:00

And if that's somebody that has dreams a lot

15:02

that are pretty close to real life,

15:05

you'd have to be like, you're going to lockdown

15:07

for a while. Well, my wife

15:09

has the strangest dreams

15:11

of anyone I know. Yeah. I mean, they

15:13

are so far out there from,

15:16

you know, running up a hill,

15:18

people chasing her, people trying

15:20

to get her. Sometimes it's me.

15:22

And then she wakes up the next morning. She's ticked

15:25

off at me. She's mad at you. If any of her

15:27

dreams came true, we'd be in

15:29

Bizarro land.

15:31

Jay Potter Mintz was murdered

15:34

on February 23rd, 1987. She

15:37

was just 23 years old.

15:39

And it was the day before

15:41

Andrew's second birthday. Andrew

15:44

was home with Jay that day, but BJ

15:46

was visiting his grandmother.

15:49

Jay was busy planning Andrew's birthday

15:51

party and preparing for family to

15:53

visit. Her mother, Laureen called

15:56

her around 9 40 a.m.

15:57

She told Jay that a man

15:59

had.

15:59

called her about the water bed. It was

16:02

coming to her house that day to

16:04

look at it and potentially buy

16:06

it.

16:07

Jay told Laureen that she had actually

16:09

sold the bed that morning. However,

16:11

Laureen didn't take down the man's contact

16:14

information and she had already given

16:16

him

16:17

directions to Jay's house. She

16:20

told Jay that when the man showed

16:22

up, she would need to tell him she'd already

16:24

sold the bed.

16:25

Jay said she would take care of it.

16:27

I think anytime a stranger comes, you would like for somebody

16:29

else to be home with you.

16:31

Yeah, I think that would be ideal.

16:33

But

16:34

can that always be the case?

16:36

And I would say no.

16:39

But Gibbs, I just kind of want to look at this on

16:41

the surface. As

16:43

you

16:44

look at what's going on,

16:46

it doesn't seem to be that big

16:48

a deal. You're trying to sell a water

16:50

bed. You put an ad in the paper. You've

16:53

already sold the water bed.

16:55

Somebody's coming by to look at

16:57

it and when they get there, you're going to tell

17:00

them, hey, I'm sorry for the mix up,

17:03

but I already sold it.

17:04

And that would be the end of it. Yeah. Now, obviously

17:06

we know that's not going to be the case.

17:09

Could you imagine being so upset that someone

17:11

sold the water bed after you drove however

17:14

long it took to get there that you would want to kill

17:16

them? No, and we'll talk

17:19

about it, but I doubt that's the

17:21

way that this went down. But I

17:23

think what's heartbreaking here is that

17:25

this was Laureen's last conversation

17:28

with her daughter.

17:30

And again, going back to what we talked

17:32

about, this is something that you see

17:34

in a lot of cases. You have no

17:37

idea when you're having what is

17:39

probably a very routine conversation

17:42

that

17:42

this is the last time you're

17:44

going to talk to someone. Right. Laureen

17:47

stopped by the house shortly afternoon

17:50

to see if Jay needed help preparing

17:52

for the birthday party. She found her

17:54

daughter's body

17:55

inside her home and witnessed

17:57

an extremely disturbing crime

17:59

scene.

17:59

She was first tipped off that something

18:02

was wrong because Jay's door was

18:04

unlocked. And this was not typical

18:07

of her. She was the type of person who

18:09

almost always kept the door locked. So

18:12

Lorraine let herself into the house. The

18:15

first thing she heard was her grandson

18:17

crying. The sound was coming from

18:20

a back bedroom. When she

18:22

entered Jay's bedroom,

18:24

she found her body on the bed. And

18:26

we talk a lot about things that are unimaginable.

18:29

And, you know, for me, this is just at the

18:31

top of the list to find

18:34

your child's dead body. Horrific.

18:37

It just, it breaks my heart

18:39

to

18:40

think about it. In 2014,

18:43

Jay's cousin, Renee Braswell spoke

18:45

with the Huffington Post about

18:47

what Lorraine saw that day. She

18:49

said that she saw a pillowcase on

18:52

Jay's head. Her first action

18:54

was to remove the pillowcase to

18:57

try to help her.

18:58

But she saw that Jay's throat

19:00

had been slashed.

19:02

In 2014, criminal investigative

19:05

psychologist Dr. Maurice Godwin

19:08

was granted access to the police files.

19:10

He described the crime scene to the

19:12

Huffington Post saying her hands

19:15

had been tied behind her back

19:17

and a pillowcase covered her face

19:19

when her mom removed the pillowcase. She

19:22

saw her daughter's throat had been cut

19:24

so deeply that her head was nearly

19:26

severed from her body.

19:28

She had also been stabbed multiple

19:31

times.

19:31

And my thought is, Gibbs, from an

19:34

investigative perspective,

19:37

you would like it if no one disturbed

19:40

the crime scene. Oh, for sure.

19:42

But how can you ask that of

19:44

a parent? There's no way. There's no

19:46

way that you're not going to take that pillowcase

19:49

off and see if there's something

19:51

that you can do to help your child. Now,

19:54

she quickly realized that

19:56

there was nothing that could be done, but

19:58

you can't fall.

19:59

her for taking that pillowcase

20:02

off at all. No, no. I

20:04

mean,

20:05

and then think about after that,

20:07

seeing that, you know, that's the

20:10

vision locked in her head forever.

20:12

Well, and so go back to the last

20:14

phone call.

20:15

Are you ever going to forget every

20:19

minute detail of that last

20:21

phone call?

20:22

My thought is no. Are you

20:25

ever going to forget that

20:27

image of seeing

20:30

your daughter

20:31

in that way?

20:32

And I would say you're not going to be

20:34

able to. No. And

20:37

on top of that, if you think

20:39

that the person that did this was the

20:41

person you gave the address to, to

20:44

go to your daughter's house, that's going

20:46

to linger right in there with the rest of it. Yeah.

20:49

So then you get into guilt and yeah, and all that.

20:51

Jay had been stabbed eight times.

20:54

The killer had tied her hands with a nylon

20:56

rope. She had also been raped.

20:59

Andrew was found unharmed near

21:01

his mother's body.

21:03

A woman named Jenny men's no

21:05

relation to Jay called the

21:07

police when Lorraine ran

21:09

to her door with her grandson in her

21:11

arms, screaming for help. Former

21:14

Brunswick County Sheriff John Carr Davis

21:16

told news outlets that Jay

21:18

was killed sometime between 10 AM

21:21

and noon.

21:21

Dr. Maurice Godwin noted that

21:24

the killer entered through a rear door.

21:27

There were no signs of forced entry inside

21:29

the house. Investigators found the newspaper

21:32

clipping of the ad Jay had put out

21:34

for the water bed. The listing was

21:36

circled.

21:37

Lieutenant Israel West from the Brunswick

21:40

County Sheriff's office told Dateline that investigators

21:43

believe the killer left this clipping

21:46

behind.

21:46

Was it the first person who bought the bed and

21:49

eventually came back later after

21:50

seeing

21:52

her and seeing the situation

21:55

at the house or was it the person

21:57

that called her mom and that

22:00

individual the address? Or was it

22:02

neither? Or that's exactly right. Things

22:05

that we'll have to keep in our heads

22:07

as we go through this case.

22:09

But if the investigators

22:11

are right and the killer left behind

22:14

this

22:14

circled

22:16

classified ad, it would

22:18

kind of

22:19

lead you in the direction of believing

22:22

that it's one or the other, one of these two

22:24

individuals. Because if not, then

22:26

you're dealing with a situation

22:28

where

22:29

the killer was someone else, but

22:32

left the ad to

22:33

throw the police off. Yeah. Which

22:36

is a possibility. True

22:38

crime all the time unsolved is brought to you

22:40

by Progressive Insurance. Most of you

22:42

listening right now are probably multitasking.

22:45

Yep, while you're listening to Gibby and I talk,

22:47

you're probably also driving, cleaning,

22:50

exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping.

22:52

But if you're not in some kind of moving

22:54

vehicle, there's something else you can be doing right

22:56

now. Getting an auto quote from Progressive

22:59

Insurance. It's easy and you could save

23:01

money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers

23:03

who save by switching to Progressive save

23:06

nearly $700 on average. And

23:08

auto customers qualify for an average

23:10

of seven discounts. Discounts for having

23:13

multiple vehicles in your policy, being

23:15

a homeowner, and more. So just like

23:17

your favorite podcast, Progressive will

23:19

be with you 24 seven, 365 days a year, so

23:23

you're protected no matter what. Multitask

23:26

right now. Quote your car insurance at progressive.com

23:28

to join the over 29 million drivers

23:31

who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty

23:33

Insurance Company and Affiliates, national

23:35

average 12 month savings of $698 by

23:39

new customer survey, who saved with Progressive

23:41

between June 2021 and May 2022. Potential

23:45

savings will vary. Discounts not available

23:47

in all states and situations. Angie's

23:50

list is now Angie, the home to skilled

23:52

neighborhood professionals. Angie is your

23:54

home for everything home, and

23:57

they've made it easier than ever Get

24:00

all your home projects done well. If you own

24:02

a home, you know how much work it can take,

24:04

whether it's everyday maintenance and repairs

24:06

or making dream projects a reality.

24:09

It can be hard just to know where to start, but

24:11

now all you need to do is Angie

24:13

that and find a skilled local pro who

24:16

will deliver the quality and expertise

24:18

you need. Angie has over 20 years of

24:20

home service experience and they've combined

24:22

it with new tools to simplify the

24:24

whole process. Bring them your project online

24:26

or with the Angie app. Answer a few questions

24:29

and Angie can handle the rest from start

24:31

to finish or help you compare quotes

24:33

from multiple pros and connect instantly.

24:36

And all of that means you can take care of

24:38

just about any home project in

24:40

just a few taps because when it comes

24:43

to getting the most out of your home, you can do this

24:45

when you Angie that. Download the free

24:47

Angie mobile app today or visit

24:49

Angie.com. That's A-N-G-I.com.

24:53

Deadly Nightmares, the podcast from

24:55

I.D. tells the real stories of people

24:58

stalked by serial killers and

25:00

attackers. On every episode, survivors

25:02

share the chilling moments they knew their

25:04

lives were in danger and how they managed

25:07

to escape their attackers. Investigators

25:09

and family members close to the victims discuss

25:11

the disturbing details of each case and

25:14

exactly how they happened. These cases

25:16

are the stuff of nightmares, but they've

25:18

happened in real life to real people. You'll

25:21

never drive alone at night again.

25:23

So we wanted to tell you about Deadly Nightmares

25:26

because we think you'll want to add it to your list. This

25:29

is a great true crime podcast and you get

25:31

to hear from those very

25:33

close to the cases. And I always

25:35

think that that's an interesting aspect.

25:38

I especially recommend when a stranger

25:40

knocks. This episode is about 36

25:43

year old Deborah Brown who's trying to

25:45

get a fresh start and relocates

25:47

with her children from New York to

25:50

Maine. She gets a new job and a new boyfriend

25:52

and everything seems to be going great. Until one

25:55

night when a knock on the door changes her

25:57

life forever. You gotta check that one out. So

25:59

listen.

25:59

to Deadly Nightmares wherever you listen

26:02

to your podcasts.

26:04

Andrew witnessed his mother's

26:06

murder, but because of his young age,

26:09

he couldn't give much information.

26:11

Years later, Lorraine

26:13

told the news outlet

26:15

WECT,

26:16

all he could tell me is

26:19

mean man hurt mommy,

26:21

mommy cry. He didn't know

26:23

she was dead. He thought she

26:25

was coming back.

26:26

And that

26:28

is enough to break your heart. It is.

26:30

It's very sad.

26:32

Rene Braswell said that Jay's mom

26:34

questioned Andrew about the killer.

26:37

Andrew remembered hearing someone

26:39

knock on the door. He said that his mother

26:42

looked through the peephole and didn't see anyone.

26:44

She opened the door and a man came inside.

26:47

Andrew described him as a white male

26:50

and said the killer was a stranger.

26:52

So

26:53

obviously, I don't think

26:55

that Andrew gave his

26:58

answers the way that I just

27:01

verbalized them. Yeah, of course. Now,

27:03

I think there was assistance. Yes.

27:05

And her mom was able

27:07

to piece all of this together from

27:11

what she got from Andrew, but this

27:13

is good information

27:14

from a two-year-old.

27:16

Maybe Andrew didn't know this

27:18

person or could remember this person

27:20

ever at their house, but maybe she

27:23

did. Yeah. And that is

27:26

a very good point. Two-year-olds

27:28

have a pretty limited

27:31

pool of people that

27:32

they're familiar with. Yeah. And I'm

27:35

guessing that Jay probably didn't

27:37

introduce the kids to certain people right

27:40

away anyway. No, most

27:42

single mothers don't because

27:44

if

27:45

you go out on the date, there's

27:47

no need. Right.

27:48

Until

27:50

the relationship has progressed

27:52

to a certain point. I

27:54

think that's pretty natural.

27:56

Jay's family was both shocked and

27:59

devastated when they

27:59

they learned what happened. They were supposed

28:02

to be celebrating Andrew's birthday,

28:04

but now they had to come together

28:06

to cope with the loss of his mother.

28:09

For example, Jill was traveling from her

28:11

home in Colorado to North

28:13

Carolina to attend the birthday party. She

28:16

found out what happened once she arrived

28:18

in North Carolina.

28:20

So heartbreak all around for the family.

28:22

Sure. And then, you know, I kind of think

28:25

of Andrew as he gets

28:27

older

28:28

and what's going to happen every time

28:30

his birthday rolls around.

28:32

He's going to be reminded of

28:35

the murder of his mom. Yes.

28:37

Not going to be fun times for him. No,

28:39

the family thought Jay's killer would be

28:42

apprehended quickly. Renee Braswell

28:44

said as quoted by Dateline, I just knew

28:47

they would catch whoever did this right away.

28:49

I must have called 10 times that

28:51

day. The hours became days,

28:54

the days became weeks and years. And

28:56

before we knew it, 34 years

28:58

had passed

28:59

and still no answers. Well, that's tough.

29:02

It's a long time. It is. And

29:04

she said it very eloquently,

29:08

right? Hours become days, days become

29:10

weeks, weeks become years. And

29:13

the next thing you know, it's 34 years

29:16

and they still don't have the answer. Yeah. You know,

29:18

further ahead in the case.

29:20

The family told Dateline they believe

29:22

that the killer would do the same thing to

29:24

another woman. Renee said, it

29:26

all seemed very calculated. He

29:28

knew what he was doing. I just fear

29:31

he did it again. And after all

29:33

these years, who knows how many

29:35

more times this happened? You know, we

29:37

talked about that this week on true

29:40

crime all the time.

29:41

We talked about the green river killer,

29:44

Gary Ridgway.

29:45

I'm sure there are people who

29:47

murder once and for

29:48

whatever reason, never

29:51

do it again. Yeah.

29:53

But unless they're caught,

29:55

I

29:56

don't know if that's the norm.

29:58

And I would throw. Sexual assault

30:00

in there as well. Yeah, I

30:03

feel as though if these individuals are

30:05

not caught

30:06

Then most likely they will probably

30:09

go on to do it again. Yeah, you know,

30:11

we've done a few cases Like I

30:13

can think of one that we did in

30:15

the Dayton area

30:17

Unsolved where the killer

30:19

used classifieds. Mm-hmm to

30:21

seek out their victims Yeah,

30:23

and there have been many I mean there is a classified

30:27

killer There you know

30:29

have been a number of cases back in the

30:31

day where killers use classified

30:33

It's kind of like my

30:35

theory on why serial killers Choose

30:39

sex workers as often as they do

30:42

Part of it is because they're able to get

30:44

those individuals into their

30:46

car Easier than they would

30:48

be other people. Yeah,

30:50

so with a classified It's

30:53

kind of the same theory

30:55

you really have no reason to go

30:57

to a person's house Unsolicited

31:00

but

31:00

if they're advertising something for sale,

31:03

well, there's your end Yeah, they're inviting you

31:05

in at that point. And so does

31:08

a person just answer a lot

31:10

of different Classifieds until

31:14

they find that situation

31:16

that they're looking for

31:18

Yeah, it's a strong possibility right

31:20

because you're calling up feet It's a

31:22

female and then maybe they have something

31:24

that would require two

31:26

people to lift and you say,

31:28

you know Is your spouse or

31:31

boyfriend gonna be there to help me get it in my vehicle?

31:34

Oh, no, it's just me, right? So

31:37

or they go look at it first. Yeah Assess

31:40

the situation and then come back later

31:43

all scary stuff

31:45

at first Investigators thought the

31:47

attacker could be someone close to

31:49

J They

31:50

quickly ruled out her estranged

31:52

husband William because he was in

31:54

the military and was stationed in Germany

31:57

at the time of the murder

31:58

And that's a pretty good alibi

31:59

It's a pretty solid, you

32:02

know, I sometimes really worry

32:04

about some of these alibis that

32:07

clear people because

32:08

we often hear that much

32:10

later. Well, it wasn't really

32:14

exactly the alibi that it was

32:16

thought to have been. Right.

32:18

Pretty tough

32:19

when you're in the military, especially

32:21

to just leave Germany

32:24

and go to North Carolina. Yeah. Fly back

32:26

home without the military

32:28

knowing or having a record of it and all

32:31

that. Now, does that mean you couldn't hire

32:33

somebody to do it? No, obviously it doesn't

32:36

mean that. They also ruled out

32:38

a local plumber and a local restaurant

32:41

owner whom Jay had recently started

32:43

dating. Several other suspects

32:45

were dismissed.

32:46

The police were pretty stumped because

32:49

they just couldn't figure out anyone

32:52

who really had a motive to kill Jay.

32:55

We said it, right? She was the

32:57

kind of woman that who really had no enemies.

33:00

Her family said that. Yeah. But sometimes you don't have

33:02

to have a reason for someone to kill

33:04

you. What? But those aren't those tough.

33:07

Sure. Right. When you can't figure

33:09

out the motive, when it's just random.

33:11

Yeah. Those are very hard cases

33:14

to solve. And you think about how she was killed,

33:16

right? Very viciously, her

33:18

neck was

33:19

slashed.

33:20

Almost to the point where it went

33:23

all the way through. Yeah. It was almost severed.

33:25

That's a lot of anger to me. And

33:27

then they had the Pella case over her face.

33:30

Why is that? Yeah. I mean, some

33:32

of that does kind of make

33:34

you quickly think that it is

33:36

someone who knew her, who

33:39

had a grudge against her or

33:41

something like that. So I think

33:43

investigators thought to kill her, you

33:46

know, was most likely a stranger. And

33:49

probably the biggest piece of evidence that

33:51

supported that theory was the fact

33:53

that Andrew was left alive

33:55

and unharmed. He also said

33:57

to Jay's mom that the person

33:59

was. a stranger. Investigators suspected

34:02

the killer was not worried about being identified,

34:05

so he left the child alone. Or

34:07

like we said, it could have been somebody

34:09

she knew that was never introduced

34:12

to Andrew. So but I get their

34:14

thinking. Leland was considered

34:16

a small, safe town, but

34:19

the entire community was shaken up by

34:21

the murder. The theory that a complete

34:23

stranger entered Jay's home and brutally

34:25

murdered the young woman was especially

34:28

disturbing. One individual told the

34:30

Star News it sort of took our

34:32

innocence, our safety away. Sure

34:35

did.

34:35

And we hear that in so

34:37

many cases, especially

34:40

in small towns

34:41

that don't experience a lot of murders.

34:44

You have a big

34:47

headline grabbing murder in a small

34:49

town,

34:50

and it forever changes that town. Yeah.

34:53

According to former Sheriff John

34:55

Carr Davis, gun sales in Leland

34:57

increased by 300% after Jay

35:00

was murdered. He told the Huffington

35:02

Post in 2014, it completely

35:05

baffled us. We didn't have much crime

35:07

scene evidence. The child was so

35:09

young that he wasn't able to offer many

35:12

details about who it was.

35:14

And like I said, you're not going to get a lot

35:16

from most

35:17

two year olds.

35:19

No, you're just not.

35:20

And it doesn't surprise me that gun sales

35:23

skyrocketed. You see that a lot.

35:25

You do.

35:26

After these types of cases, Jay's

35:28

case went cold

35:30

when none of the potential leads panned

35:32

out many years past and

35:35

the family received no answers. Despite

35:37

the amount of work investigators put into

35:39

the case,

35:40

the two boys were raised by Jay's

35:42

parents.

35:43

Lorene was traumatized by the loss

35:46

of her daughter and from witnessing

35:48

the crime scene. What a

35:50

tragedy. On so many levels.

35:52

Yeah. You know, this 23

35:54

year old young

35:56

mother lost her life. That's a

35:58

tragedy.

35:59

two boys lost their mother.

36:02

That's a tragedy. Everything that

36:05

the family has to deal with. I mean, it's just

36:07

tragedy all the way. Right.

36:08

And I don't think there's enough medication out there.

36:11

If I seen something like that

36:13

for me to ever get a good night's sleep,

36:15

it would be rough. No doubt about

36:17

it. Laura Hobbs, Lorraine

36:19

sister told WWAY TV

36:21

that she talked about the murder every

36:24

day

36:24

for about five years. She eventually

36:27

told her sister,

36:28

Lorraine, you're going to have to forgive

36:30

that person. Man, I don't know.

36:33

I hear people talk

36:35

about forgiveness and I've

36:38

heard some victims, moms

36:40

and dads come out and say that they forgave

36:43

the individual. I just don't think I ever

36:45

could.

36:46

Yeah.

36:47

There are some people who can do it

36:49

and some people who can't.

36:51

And I do feel like personally, I'm

36:54

the type of person who would have a real

36:56

hard time with it. Yeah. I'm not

36:58

saying that I have to go all a time

37:00

to kill like Samuel All

37:02

Jackson did in that movie and

37:05

see, you know, my vengeance or, you

37:07

know, anything like that, but to

37:09

forgive.

37:11

I just think that takes a level

37:13

of

37:14

strength. I don't know what the right word is

37:16

that I probably don't have. I don't think a

37:18

lot of people do.

37:19

Laura continued by saying, she looked

37:21

at me horrified. I said, you've got

37:23

to forgive. I said, he's not going to

37:26

change. I said, you have to forgive

37:28

yourself. You have to forgive

37:30

for yourself.

37:31

A year later, Lorraine told her I forgave

37:34

him and I feel like a weight has been

37:36

lifted off of me.

37:38

And I'm sure that is true.

37:40

You know, that statement that her sister made,

37:42

you have to forgive for

37:44

yourself. Absolutely. Is

37:46

probably true.

37:48

If not, whether, yeah, that's the

37:50

question

37:51

whether or not you can do it.

37:54

By 1998,

37:55

detectives were able to use new forensic testing

37:58

that was not available. back

38:00

in 1987. They were hopeful

38:02

that scientific advances would help

38:05

them solve the case, but

38:07

obviously we've said it, right?

38:09

Unfortunately Jay's case remains unsolved,

38:12

right, to this day. Jay's mother

38:15

speaking with the Morning Star of Wilmington said

38:17

that coping with the law subject

38:19

had been even harder for the family since

38:22

her husband William died in 1993.

38:25

She told the paper, sometimes you have

38:27

to take what you got and go

38:29

with it, even when you can't understand

38:31

it. I do know that hate and resentment

38:34

can only hurt yourself, so I

38:36

do think she's kind of backing that

38:38

forgiveness is the better path

38:41

deal.

38:42

Yeah, I understand it. I mean it makes sense

38:44

to me. I just wonder how hard

38:46

it is to pull yourself up and do

38:49

that. Very hard.

38:51

That's why I think I use the word strength, because

38:53

I do think it would take strength,

38:56

not physical strength, but like

38:59

internal fortitude

39:01

type strength. But I think if you can't,

39:04

I can see how it would just eat you up

39:06

on the inside. Yes. According

39:08

to Find a Grave, William Allen

39:10

Mintz died on September 8th, 1993. He

39:14

was only 29 years old.

39:16

His Find a Grave profile states that

39:18

he died from carbon monoxide

39:20

asphyxiation. So obviously

39:23

he decided to

39:24

end his life. That's what it sounds like

39:26

to me.

39:27

In 1995, Lorraine joined a group called

39:31

Justice for Citizens, a support group

39:33

for victims' families. The group was formed

39:36

by a woman named Bertie Frank, whose

39:38

teen daughter was murdered in 1994. This was

39:41

the first support group in

39:43

Brunswick County, North Carolina. Up

39:45

to 60 people attended the meetings where

39:48

members discussed pending legislation

39:51

on victims' rights and gave families

39:53

space to talk.

39:54

Lorraine was able to support other parents

39:56

whose children were murdered and in some cases

39:59

watched

39:59

their killers face justice.

40:01

She hoped that she would get to go to court

40:04

one day to see her daughters killer

40:06

convicted. I mean, I think that's great support.

40:08

I think families need it. And as

40:11

we've talked about before, you

40:12

know, who else knows better what

40:15

you're going through than someone

40:17

who is either already gone

40:19

through it or is still currently

40:21

going through. Yeah. It's one thing to just give

40:24

support as somebody that's never been through

40:26

it, but you can't really say, I know

40:28

what you're going through.

40:30

You can say it, but it doesn't really resonate.

40:32

No, it doesn't mean the same thing, but

40:35

I wonder how hard this was for

40:37

Jay's

40:39

mother because the

40:41

case is still unsolved. Right. She's

40:43

helping all these other people, which is an amazing

40:46

thing,

40:47

but she's also seeing

40:50

some of these other

40:52

victims, family members

40:54

get justice. Yeah. So she's not

40:57

getting it. So you think

40:59

it could be therapeutic, but also

41:01

tough stuff at the same time. Yeah, I

41:04

absolutely do. She told the Sun

41:06

news in 2001, birdie is a

41:08

great help before. I had

41:10

no support, just my family.

41:12

She said the group helped boost her spirits.

41:15

In contrast, she told the Sun

41:17

news that her husband had lost

41:19

all hope. The Jay's killer would be caught.

41:22

Laureen maintained a sense of hope saying

41:25

someone has to come forward.

41:26

That's what it needs to take. And

41:29

it almost sounds like a broken record

41:31

because it comes out in

41:33

all these unsolved episodes, but

41:36

it is true. Someone's going

41:38

to have to come forward

41:40

and say, I know this,

41:42

or I saw this or, or whatever

41:45

that bombshell is that, that

41:47

kind of cracks the thing wide

41:49

open. We even talked about that on the Gary

41:51

Richway TCAT episode this

41:53

week. Yeah, because someone made

41:56

the decision to come forward

41:58

in February, 2000.

41:59

Jay's story was featured in USA

42:02

Today. After the article was

42:04

released, hundreds of law enforcement

42:06

officers called the Brunswick County

42:09

Sheriff's Office to inform them

42:11

they had a similar murder case.

42:13

Potential connections were investigated,

42:15

but a killer was not identified.

42:18

According to the USA Today article,

42:20

the killer knocked rather than broke

42:23

in. He brought gloves, a rope,

42:25

and a knife, and he took the

42:27

murder weapon with him. The killer

42:29

also entered and exited the home quickly.

42:32

Without anyone noticing him, Jay's

42:34

house was located on a main road, and

42:37

people were out and about in

42:39

her neighborhood. According to Dayline, a

42:42

roofing crew working across the street

42:44

from Jay's house didn't notice anything

42:46

suspicious on the morning of

42:49

February 23, 1987. Yeah,

42:51

but are you really paying attention to

42:53

everything going on when you're working? If

42:56

you're walking up and down the neighborhood,

42:59

do you really see everything? I don't know. I

43:02

don't think you can say you see everything. No, you

43:04

don't see everything. Somebody

43:07

knocking on someone's front door,

43:09

is that

43:10

going to really register?

43:13

Probably not. Yeah. But

43:16

my thought is, wouldn't the killer

43:18

have

43:19

to have been covered in

43:21

some blood?

43:22

I mean, not to get gruesome.

43:25

But when you slash somebody's

43:28

neck

43:28

and sever what was probably

43:31

both carotid arteries all the

43:33

way down to the spine, that is

43:35

going to be a massive amount

43:38

of blood spur. Yeah, it is. I

43:40

mean, unless he took his clothes

43:42

off

43:43

when he was raping her. Yeah,

43:45

there are some variations. Right.

43:48

But

43:49

I think if you did enter and exit

43:51

very, very quickly,

43:53

I don't know. I don't

43:54

know, it's part of the mystery of this cage. Sure.

43:57

Yeah. Investigators didn't find the murder weapon or

43:59

any prints.

43:59

And like we said earlier, they really

44:02

still have not established a

44:04

clear motive. However, they did find

44:06

DNA evidence at the scene.

44:09

DNA eliminated suspects

44:11

and persons of interest, but investigators

44:14

did not find a match and the case went

44:16

cold.

44:16

And that is always the problem with DNA. It's

44:19

great for eliminating suspects.

44:22

And it's great

44:24

if

44:25

your offender's DNA

44:27

profile is in a database

44:30

somewhere.

44:31

But if it's not, it's really

44:33

not worth much. No, not at

44:35

that time.

44:36

But you could also say, you know what, it

44:38

saves the police a lot of legwork,

44:41

continuing to chase down something

44:43

that's not viable anymore. And

44:46

also when I say, you know, it's not worth much, I'm talking

44:48

about the time period that

44:51

you're talking about in the case. Today,

44:54

and

44:55

I'm sure we may expand on it further

44:58

later on, that DNA is

45:00

worth a lot more than it was back then.

45:03

Even if there is still no match in the database

45:06

because, you know, now we're into this

45:08

genetic genealogy

45:10

stuff and DNA

45:14

is being used in a lot of different

45:16

ways. And as these databases

45:18

grow, potentially

45:19

you're

45:20

going to

45:21

hit, get a hit. Oh, the person could

45:24

enter the database, sure.

45:25

Or their family member could, which

45:28

is more probable. And that's what we're

45:30

finding today that is helping to solve

45:32

a lot of cases. In 2006, investigators

45:35

reexamined the case and resubmitted

45:38

DNA samples for testing. All

45:40

persons of interest were once again

45:43

cleared. So I mean, they're doing the work.

45:46

They have to say that for sure. They're

45:48

just not getting the results they they're looking

45:50

for.

45:51

In 2007,

45:53

Lorraine did an interview with the news outlet

45:55

WECT. She said, I can't

45:58

even explain how bad it's been. I

46:00

can't explain how bad it was the day

46:02

I found her either. It broke

46:04

my heart. I get it. Yeah, there's no

46:06

words to to really

46:09

Express how bad that that

46:11

was and probably still is I don't know

46:13

if I could even ask her Hey, how'd you feel that day?

46:16

I just don't think I could even ask that question

46:18

to her. Well, I mean, why would you? Yeah, cuz

46:20

it's not a question that's easily

46:23

answered. I guess according to Jay

46:25

sister Jill once

46:28

Lorraine died of a heart attack a

46:30

few months after her 2000 interview. She was 63 years old

46:34

She said that her mom felt guilty

46:37

for giving the caller directions to

46:39

Jay's house She spent the rest of

46:41

her life trying to find the killer

46:43

Jill told daylight She lived with

46:45

so much pain and guilt for the rest of

46:47

her life. Her heart was broken

46:50

I bet it was and you wonder

46:53

what effect that had

46:56

on her Lifespan.

46:58

Oh, I think it had to

47:00

reduce her lifespan

47:02

that stress

47:04

that guilt

47:05

Yeah, I mean stresses is rough on

47:07

you She also said that Lorraine

47:10

planned to stop at the house earlier that

47:12

morning But didn't she always said that

47:14

if she had gone by there earlier, maybe

47:17

she could have deterred the killer

47:19

She thought maybe things would have turned out

47:22

differently. So again, like we

47:24

see in all these cases

47:26

It's the what ifs right? What

47:28

if I had done this? What if

47:31

I had gone there earlier

47:34

like I plan to do Could

47:36

I have stopped this really

47:38

bad thing from happening? Yeah, there's

47:40

what else will haunt you forever Jay's

47:42

father William Potter died in 2016 in

47:48

2014 the Huffington Post spoke with Tony Cummings

47:50

from the State Bureau of Investigation

47:53

who was retired at that point. He

47:55

said that investigators believe the suspect

47:58

is the person who about

48:00

the water bed. And at first, I really

48:03

struggle with this because technically if you

48:05

think about it, there were two people

48:07

who inquired about the water bed.

48:10

One person ended up

48:12

buying it.

48:12

Now, I don't know if they ever came forward,

48:15

maybe they did. I never saw that in

48:17

the research. But

48:19

my assumption is here that he's

48:21

talking about the second person

48:24

that was given directions to Jay's house.

48:27

I don't know that for sure, but I'm taking it

48:29

that way. I am too.

48:31

Cummings said that he did not think

48:33

the killer was methodical or

48:35

spent a lot of time planning the murder. Criminal

48:37

investigative psychologist Maurice Godwin

48:40

though disagreed. He told the Huffington

48:42

Post, I believe the individual

48:44

had been stalking her.

48:46

The person was comfortable watching the house

48:48

and going in. He knew there was

48:50

not an adult male in the home.

48:52

So he had to be watching.

48:54

The newspaper ad could be a ruse

48:56

left at the crime scene to taunt investigators.

49:00

And I think either one of these

49:02

theories could be true. Yeah.

49:05

The person could have been stalking Jay,

49:08

could have known

49:10

beforehand that nobody else was going

49:12

to be there besides, you

49:14

know, two year old Andrew,

49:17

or the

49:18

person could have stopped by,

49:20

walked in the house and immediately assess

49:23

the situation or hell, it could have been one of the roofers.

49:26

Yeah. Across the street. Yeah. We really, we really

49:28

don't know. Yeah.

49:29

Renee Braswell brought up the strange

49:31

phone calls Jay received before she was

49:34

killed. She noted that Jay

49:36

received the calls after she got

49:38

home

49:38

and the caller always hung up. This

49:41

later made them think someone was watching

49:44

her. Now that does add an element

49:46

to it,

49:47

but we said she was

49:49

getting a lot of unwanted

49:51

attention. Yes, she was. So it's

49:54

absolutely possible that

49:56

the two things are separate.

49:58

She could have had someone you

50:00

know who was enamored with her

50:03

and for whatever reason

50:06

was calling and hanging up but

50:08

didn't kill her

50:10

and the killer was somebody completely different

50:13

yet or. It could have been

50:15

the killer who was stalking

50:17

her watching her calling her and hanging

50:20

up and then ultimately struck.

50:23

Renee also said that it becomes difficult

50:25

to wait for answers is more time passes

50:28

the only thing that kept James mom

50:30

going as long as she did was her

50:33

grandchildren she adopted them

50:35

and could talk and look at them and always

50:37

see her daughter in their faces they

50:39

were a blessing to her but now.

50:42

She's gone

50:43

it's up to us now to make sure the case

50:45

stays in the spotlight and every

50:47

year we think this is the year

50:49

it will be so

50:50

but nothing happened.

50:52

It's devastating and we wanted to

50:54

come to an end

50:55

and i think these types of quotes

50:58

are very important to read from

51:00

the family members because it really

51:03

gives you some sort of sense. I'm

51:06

just how

51:07

devastating this stuff really is

51:10

on the family

51:11

you go back to hours

51:13

turn in the day

51:14

days turn into weeks

51:17

turn in the months months in the years and

51:20

i think that's what it's like. Especially

51:22

when you have these very old unsolved

51:25

cases in the family have had

51:27

to live with this for you

51:29

thirty plus years. Yeah time

51:32

lieutenant israel west has been working

51:34

the case since two thousand sixteen he

51:37

told a line that a number of people

51:39

have been questioned but there is no evidence

51:41

connecting anyone in particular to the

51:43

murder. DNA was collected

51:46

from the crime scene and he hopes this will

51:48

one day lead dancers there are

51:50

persons of interest in the case but no

51:52

one's name has been made public. In

51:55

two thousand eighteen civilian investigative

51:57

specialist jim west from the brian.

52:00

Brunswick County Sheriff's Office spoke

52:02

with WWAY-TV and

52:04

said the detectives hoped new

52:06

technology could lead to answers 30 years

52:09

later.

52:10

Civilian investigative specialist Woody

52:12

Kluche said they had 19,000 pages of investigative

52:16

work and

52:18

that they had some suspects but

52:20

could not disclose any information about

52:22

them. When asked if there were any new

52:25

developments in the case, he said they

52:27

had new technology

52:28

and were working with a lab that does

52:31

phenotyping. Civilian investigative

52:33

specialist Mary Doncourt explained that

52:36

a lab can take DNA and

52:38

create a facial approximation of

52:40

what a suspect looks like. Now

52:42

that's important stuff. It is and

52:45

we've talked about it before.

52:48

It's amazing stuff. So

52:50

between that, between

52:53

some of the genetic genealogy

52:56

and the fact that

52:58

they do have some persons of interest,

53:01

you would have to say

53:03

for as

53:04

old as this case is,

53:06

there's a really good chance that technology

53:09

is going to solve it. Yeah, yeah,

53:11

I kind of feel the same way. Now if we

53:13

were sitting here and saying they have

53:15

no DNA,

53:17

we'd be back to the old line.

53:20

Someone's going to have to come forward and spill the beans.

53:23

But you don't have to have that if

53:25

you have DNA. It

53:26

also seems impressive that they have 19,000 pages. Well,

53:31

it has been 30 some years. Yeah, but

53:33

at least it shows you they haven't just been sitting,

53:35

not doing anything on this case.

53:38

She also mentioned that they were doing further

53:40

DNA testing with an

53:42

NVAC system.

53:44

And this has come up in a lot of cases recently.

53:47

In July 2018, the Brunswick

53:49

County Sheriff's Office purchased

53:51

an NVAC system,

53:53

which was described as a giant

53:55

vacuum cleaner. Don Court explained

53:58

they wet down the pea. And

54:00

it just sucks up everything

54:02

so it pulls out far more DNA

54:06

than the old method of just swab

54:09

it's come up because apparently it's very

54:11

expensive and Not

54:13

all jurisdictions can afford one, right?

54:16

But you

54:17

know if you think about some cases where

54:20

they have not been able to get enough to

54:22

create a profile Well, maybe

54:25

this in back system

54:27

Can where the swab

54:30

was unable to they were waiting

54:32

on the results to come back from the state

54:34

crime lab

54:36

but as of 2023 there

54:38

are no new updates regarding the

54:41

DNA testing. All we know

54:43

is that the case is still open

54:45

It's been over 30 years since Jay

54:47

Potter mince was killed and her murder

54:49

remains unsolved Investigators in

54:51

Jay's family hold out hope that Advancements

54:55

in DNA technology will finally

54:57

lead to answers as we have seen

54:59

numerous times with cases that are decades

55:02

old We're

55:03

seeing it all the time and

55:05

this to me is a case

55:07

that has all the elements of

55:09

one that can be solved

55:11

Using all these different types of

55:14

new DNA Technology.

55:16

Yeah, they get to feel good about it. You really do

55:19

because let's face it There are

55:21

a lot of cases that at the end

55:23

when we look at everything they have There's

55:27

not a lot of hope there because

55:29

they

55:29

just don't have anything

55:32

That the new technology could

55:34

even use. Yeah,

55:36

but that's not the case in this one

55:38

No, and kudos to the team for collecting all

55:40

the stuff. They collected it and Preserving

55:43

it so when from the 1980s, yeah,

55:46

so when the technology did come around it was

55:48

they had things there to use The people

55:51

involved in the case also hope that

55:53

one day Someone will come forward

55:55

with the information. They need to find the killer

55:58

whether the killer is alive or dead The

56:00

family deserves answers. I always believe

56:03

that.

56:03

Anyone with information that could help solve

56:06

the case can call Lieutenant Israel

56:08

West with the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office

56:11

at 910-253-2777.

56:12

You

56:16

can also contact Dr. Maurice

56:18

Godwin at 910-670-2450. He's working on behalf of the

56:20

Potter family.

56:26

So some good resources there.

56:28

Yeah, and I think as you know, we wrap this one

56:30

up. Like I said before, I mean, to

56:32

me there is a lot

56:35

of potential

56:36

for this one to be solved.

56:37

I always think everything is solvable,

56:40

right? It's just some

56:42

I view as having a much greater chance

56:45

of being solved and I would put this one

56:47

in that category because of

56:50

the DNA evidence. Yeah, you

56:51

know, if you're simply relying

56:54

on someone coming forward, well, they've

56:56

had 30

56:57

plus years to do so

56:59

and they haven't done it. So what is going

57:01

to

57:02

cause them to do it now? I don't

57:05

know what that would be, but

57:07

DNA technology is advancing all the

57:09

time. Yeah, so more and more cases are

57:11

just going to be

57:13

solved if they have DNA.

57:16

But that's it for our episode on the murder

57:18

of Beverly J Potter men's.

57:20

We got some voicemails. Give you and check those out. They

57:23

say.

57:24

Hey, Mike. Hey, Gabby. This is Kathy from

57:26

Loganville, Georgia. I was

57:28

just listening to the latest episode

57:31

and I thought it was really, really funny. At the

57:33

end of the episode, Mike said,

57:35

what were you doing on March

57:37

23rd, three years ago? Could you

57:40

tell me I was buying

57:42

my husband's wedding ring at

57:44

the mall. I know exactly what I did that entire

57:47

day, but to

57:49

be like, only because I

57:51

remember I was buying wedding ring because I got married

57:54

over 27. So funny story.

57:56

And Mike said

57:57

he didn't have COVID yet. I actually had

57:59

COVID.

57:59

while I was doing that. So it is a funny

58:02

story. Maybe you should have picked a less

58:04

significant year or something to throw

58:06

everybody off but it

58:08

was just a funny coincidence. So stay

58:11

safe, keep your own time taken and I'll talk

58:13

to you all next

58:14

week.

58:15

It is a funny story. I think

58:18

if I'm going to pick

58:20

random years, probably 2020 is one

58:23

to skip.

58:24

Now that I think about it. There's a lot of people

58:26

gonna have recall for that

58:28

year.

58:29

Yeah, I mean if you got a bad case of

58:31

COVID you're probably gonna remember. Yeah.

58:33

The date and but that's what

58:36

it takes. It takes something monumental.

58:39

Yeah, some type of milestone

58:41

or monumental. She's buying a wedding ring.

58:43

That's huge. Now you're

58:46

buying it four days before the wedding?

58:48

That's another story. What's going on?

58:50

No, it all worked out. It did

58:52

all work out.

58:53

Hey guys, this is Hannah from Miss Jas,

58:55

Saskatchewan. Normally from Fort St.

58:58

John, BC. I'm actually calling because I was

59:00

listening to one of your older episodes and

59:02

heard someone else from my hometown leave a voicemail.

59:05

It's not a super big or well-known place so

59:07

I thought that was pretty cool. I think

59:09

you guys should look into the case of the Jack family.

59:11

It's a semi-local story for

59:13

me and even after 30 years

59:16

we still have very little information about

59:18

the abduction of a whole family. Pretty

59:20

wild. Thanks for the great show guys. Stay

59:22

safe and keep your own time taken. I

59:25

think you guys ought to form a TCAT fan

59:27

club since there's two of you. Yeah.

59:30

That's enough. That's all you need. You just need

59:32

more than one person. Exactly. You can have

59:34

a fan club by yourself. You could. Technically.

59:38

Yeah. Maybe I'll start that. Oh,

59:40

I think you already have your own Gibby fan

59:42

club

59:43

by yourself. For yourself.

59:45

You saw the posters. I did. Yeah. I think

59:48

that was a little much to put posters up all

59:50

over town. I was trying. But

59:53

I don't think I've heard of that case. It's off

59:55

to look it up. Dive into that one. Yeah, it sounds

59:58

like it could be a real good

1:00:00

one. A whole family is abducted and

1:00:03

nobody really knows. So we'll

1:00:05

take a look at it for sure. But appreciate

1:00:07

the voicemails and that is it

1:00:10

for another episode of True Crime

1:00:12

All the Time Unsolved. So for Mike and Gabby

1:00:14

stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

1:00:53

Dive into True Crime on Pluto TV.

1:00:57

Unravel the mysteries with forensic files and 48

1:00:59

hours. Investigate crimes with

1:01:01

Dateline 24-7 and Unsolved Mysteries. With

1:01:05

thousands of free crime movies and TV shows,

1:01:07

Pluto TV is the true home of

1:01:09

crime. Download the Pluto TV app

1:01:12

on all your favorite devices and start

1:01:14

streaming

1:01:14

True Crime on live

1:01:16

channels and on demand. Pluto

1:01:20

TV. Stream now. Pay notered.