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funturns50.com There's

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so much South Dakota. So

1:00

little time. I

1:02

got out of the shower as I

1:04

was cleaning off the mirror and I

1:07

saw fingers pushing through my window. He

1:10

looked very demonic and he said

1:12

like a really scrappy voice. He

1:15

said, hey, I headed

1:17

up that way and my dog barked

1:19

and I looked over and he was

1:21

probably 20 feet away from me walking

1:23

straight towards me. He

1:25

used her phone after he had

1:27

killed her to add me on

1:29

Facebook. I'm Jamie

1:32

Beebe. And I'm Jake Deptula. We're the

1:34

hosts of Strictly Stalking, bringing you heroic stories

1:36

of those who have survived at the hands

1:38

of a stalker. To hear these

1:40

stories and more, listen to Strictly Stalking

1:42

wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks

1:55

for watching! Hello

2:21

everyone and welcome to episode 362 of the

2:23

True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm

2:25

Mike Ferguson and with me as always is

2:27

my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Gibby,

2:30

how are you? Hey man, I'm doing okay.

2:32

That's good to know. Yeah. You want to know how I'm

2:34

doing? Okay. How are you doing? I'm

2:37

not happy. And

2:39

why is that? Because we

2:42

just recorded about 30 minutes

2:44

of a podcast. Did. Before

2:47

I noticed that the red recording light

2:49

was not on. You have one job.

2:51

I know. And I messed that

2:54

job up. And it is

2:56

squarely on my shoulders. You know why I wouldn't

2:58

have messed it up? Because my

3:01

discipline from my black belt

3:03

training. That I just

3:05

recently received. Yeah. You were talking about

3:08

getting a black belt and, but you

3:10

were very evasive about what it's in.

3:13

Yeah. That's what you do when you have a black belt. I

3:16

assume it's like Gibby Quando.

3:19

You're both the sensei and the,

3:21

uh, the student and you gave

3:23

it to yourself. Very true grasshopper. Let's

3:26

go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs.

3:28

We have Melissa Porter. Hey, Melissa. I

3:30

Lona. Hey, I wanna. Alicia RN79.

3:34

Well, thanks. RN79. Mark.

3:36

What's going on, Mark? Nick. Oh,

3:38

Nick. Paula Wilson. There's Paula. Amanda

3:41

Moss. Thank you so much, Moss.

3:43

Angela Cass. Hey, Angela. Jason Kraus.

3:45

Well, thanks Kraus. And last but

3:47

not least, mom 7-8. Oh,

3:50

we love mom. Yeah. She sent us some stuff

3:52

in the mailbag that we talked about on TCAT.

3:54

And then if we go back into the vault,

3:58

this week we selected. Daphne

4:00

Nakasone. Hey, way to go Steph.

4:02

Yeah, we also had a great

4:04

PayPal donation from Hesper Stacy. Thanks

4:06

Stacy. So we appreciate everyone who

4:09

supports the show. Gibbs, right now

4:11

we have an episode out on True Crime All the

4:13

Time, where we're talking about Tony

4:16

Boyle. And this is

4:18

a story that revolves around

4:20

unions and the fight

4:23

for the presidency, there's

4:25

allegations of misuse

4:27

of funds and ultimately

4:30

an assassination. Oh

4:32

yeah, three people. Yeah, so check that

4:34

out. Brutal. All right buddy,

4:36

are you ready to get into this episode

4:38

of True Crime All the Time on Saul?

4:40

I am ready. We are talking about Lindy

4:42

Chamberlain and the death of her daughter Azaria.

4:45

Lindy Chamberlain is an Australian woman

4:47

who was convicted of murdering her

4:49

10 week old daughter. Lindy

4:52

claimed that a dingo attacked

4:54

the infant and dragged her

4:56

away from the family campsite,

4:58

but investigators didn't believe her.

5:01

This is a pretty infamous

5:03

case that has kind

5:05

of made its way into pop

5:08

culture over the years. Yeah, I mean it

5:10

started off with a movie back in the

5:12

day with Meryl Streep and then I think

5:15

everybody, our age at least,

5:17

that watched Seinfeld will remember Elaine

5:20

saying that famous line. The

5:22

dingo ate my baby. Yeah. Yeah.

5:26

Obviously it's gonna be much

5:28

more tragic in this

5:31

story that we're getting ready to get

5:33

into. It was kind of funny

5:35

when she said it, but not

5:37

so much here. Alice Lynn

5:39

Murchison was born in New Zealand in

5:41

1948. Her family

5:44

moved to Australia in 1969. Lindy

5:47

met a Seventh Day Adventist

5:49

minister named Michael Chamberlain in

5:52

Mount Isa, Queensland. They got

5:54

married on November 18th, 1969. They

5:57

were married for over 20 years. time

6:00

together. Yeah, it's a long time. By

6:03

1980, Lindy and Michael

6:05

had three children, six-year-old Aiden,

6:08

four-year-old Regan, and 10-week-old Azaria,

6:10

who was born on June 11,

6:12

1980. In

6:15

August 1980, they decided to

6:17

go on a family camping trip to Ayers

6:19

Rock. Ayers Rock is a

6:21

348-meter monolith in the desert of Australia's Northern Territory.

6:27

It's over 200 miles southwest of

6:29

Alice Springs. Not a bad day

6:31

hike. For you, maybe, and

6:34

maybe for Jason Bourne, for

6:36

me, that's a motorized vehicle

6:38

ride. So do you ever go camping?

6:41

Yeah, the family and I, we did

6:43

quite a bit of camping when the kids

6:45

were younger. Not so much as

6:47

they got older, because, you know, they had

6:50

things to do. They had people they wanted

6:52

to hang out with, their friends and that.

6:54

But I always thought, you know,

6:56

camping was fun from the standpoint

6:58

of, you know, we had

7:00

one big tent. All four of us

7:02

were in sleeping bags in

7:04

there together. It was just,

7:08

it was a nice time, man. It might have

7:10

been before the kids even had iPhones. So

7:13

you rough it? Yeah, so we were roughing

7:15

it. But, you know, had a

7:17

fire, made s'mores, did all that type of stuff.

7:19

I always enjoyed camping, too, when I

7:21

was younger. I just had to worry

7:24

about the black bears around me.

7:26

Yeah, you did a lot of that in,

7:28

like, what, Tennessee? Yeah. Yeah, those black bears,

7:30

you know, you gotta be careful. They want

7:33

my food. Ayers Rock was

7:35

and still is a major tourist

7:37

attraction. According to New York

7:40

Times, before the family left for

7:42

their camping trip, the chief park

7:44

ranger told his superiors that dingoes

7:47

were a threat to humans and that

7:49

their numbers needed to be decreased. So

7:51

the Chamber Lens were looking forward to

7:53

camping, right, and exploring the area with

7:55

their children. They left home on August

7:58

13th, 19th, 2019. And

8:01

arrived at the campground on the night

8:03

of August 16th on the morning of the

8:05

17th Michael and the two

8:07

boys went out to climb the rock So,

8:10

you know, I mentioned the monolith

8:12

but it sounds like the rock

8:15

was kind of the main attraction Yeah, I

8:18

mean obviously people were there camping and all

8:20

that but it was named Ayers

8:22

Rock So I'd love to see it one

8:24

day. Yeah. Well, you and I have been talking

8:26

about Australia Quite a

8:28

bit lately. It's been on my

8:30

mind and I really

8:32

want to go but at the same time I'm

8:35

also very scared to go. Yeah, all

8:38

those venomous things Well, yeah, I keep thinking

8:40

there are a lot of things that could

8:42

hurt me Even though every time I talk

8:45

about it people email me and say oh,

8:47

you know That's out in the in the

8:49

bush if you're in the city, you know,

8:51

you're fine and all this but I

8:54

guess it's me watching Some

8:57

of these YouTube videos I watch where

8:59

one of the guys is in Australia.

9:01

He's always out camping by himself He's

9:04

fishing. It just looks really

9:06

cool there. You want to be out

9:08

in the bush, right a little bit? Yeah, a little

9:10

bit. I just don't want to get hurt. You

9:12

want to be out there with a with a with a good

9:14

tracker and I and a Somebody

9:17

with a high-powered rifle Medic

9:22

Lindy took baby Azaria with her

9:24

to go explore a different rock

9:27

formation called fertility cave outside

9:29

the cave Lindy encountered a

9:32

dingo. She later told the

9:34

detective she had a feeling that

9:36

the dingo was Quote

9:38

casing the baby stalking

9:40

stalking casing. That's a very

9:42

specific word to use and

9:45

if true Alarming well

9:48

alarming with what we're getting ready to talk

9:50

about for sure After sunset

9:52

the Chamberlain's joined other campers

9:55

at the communal grilling area

9:58

So they're out there camping, but it sounds like like

10:00

there's a lot of other people around

10:02

them at this Ayers Rock,

10:04

which makes sense. If it's kind of a

10:07

major tourist attraction, you're probably not going to

10:09

be out there alone. So you're out there

10:11

in nature and enjoying some

10:13

type of solitude, but not

10:16

too much. Yeah.

10:19

If you got a communal grilling area, then

10:22

you're not by yourself. Lindy held

10:24

the baby while she and Michael spoke

10:26

to Greg and Sally Lowe, who

10:29

were also camping with their baby. Around

10:31

8 p.m., Sally Lowe

10:33

walked to a trash can to

10:35

dispose of some garbage. She

10:38

noticed the dingo following her. Minutes

10:40

later, Michael and his son,

10:42

Aiden, threw a crust of bread

10:44

to a dingo that appeared near the

10:46

grill area. Lindy scolded them

10:48

and said they shouldn't encourage the

10:51

dingo. I agree with her. And

10:53

I guess we should probably talk about

10:56

what a dingo is a little bit.

10:59

There are some people here in North America

11:01

who may have no idea what it is.

11:03

I mean, it is essentially

11:07

some type of breed of wild dog.

11:10

And I think it's specific to Australia, if

11:12

I'm not mistaken. And when

11:14

I looked at pictures of dingoes, they

11:17

were kind of all over the map. Some of

11:19

them looked like

11:21

wolves. Some of them were

11:24

wolfs, as you would say. And

11:27

some of them had much narrower

11:30

faces, almost like looking like greyhounds.

11:32

Not in the body, but in

11:34

the face. I was just thinking,

11:37

10-week-old baby, pretty

11:39

young to go camping. Yeah, I thought

11:41

that as well. I mean, it's

11:44

always hard to kind of

11:46

say what a parent does

11:49

is wrong. I wouldn't say that. What

11:52

I will say is I never

11:55

took my kids camping when

11:57

they were that young. It's not saying

11:59

that. saying it can't be done, I'm just

12:02

saying that babies are needy

12:05

at that age and it's

12:08

hard enough taking care of them

12:10

in the comfort of home. I

12:12

don't really want to be doing it out

12:15

roughing, you know, in a tent.

12:18

That's a whole another level of

12:20

camping. Right. What if I run out of huggies?

12:22

I can't just run down the street and get

12:24

some huggies. I'm going to have

12:26

to do some kind of MacGyver maneuver

12:29

and make a diaper out of

12:31

a leaf or something.

12:33

I don't know. I

12:35

don't think there's a leaf back at all. Some

12:38

diapers have to hold.

12:40

I'm going to have to weave something together

12:43

and I'm not going to have my diaper genie

12:45

probably with me, which, you know, that was one

12:47

of my favorite things when the kids were little.

12:49

Just so you didn't have to smell it. Exactly.

12:51

I just don't see you ever changing the diaper.

12:54

Son, I changed all kinds of diapers

12:56

from the very

12:59

beginning black tar all the way

13:01

through. Those were something weren't they? So

13:04

Lindy got on right about encouraging

13:07

the dingoes and you said she

13:09

was right to do so. And

13:11

it kind of reminded me of you

13:13

talking about black bears because, you know,

13:16

I swear those things can smell for like a hundred

13:18

miles. I know that's not true. I don't know what

13:20

the exact number is,

13:22

but they can smell food a

13:25

long ways away. Now we're not

13:27

talking about smelling food, but you are

13:30

kind of encouraging a

13:32

wild animal to get closer,

13:35

maybe to feel like

13:38

it's okay to be here. Yeah.

13:40

You should never feed wild animals.

13:42

They're really not ducks. I'm

13:44

okay with. After

13:47

this, Lindy told the group that she was

13:49

going to put the baby down and went

13:51

to their tent to set up a bed

13:53

for Azaria and her son, Regan. She

13:56

rejoined the group about 10 minutes

13:58

later, leaving the two children. in

14:00

the tent nearby. Lindy

14:02

ran back to the tent when she heard

14:04

a baby's cry. Moments later,

14:06

the camper soon heard her shout,

14:08

my God, my God, the dingoes

14:11

got my baby. Scary? I

14:14

think it's scary for you as the

14:16

parent, obviously, but also probably

14:18

pretty scary for those around them

14:20

that are that are hearing them. Yeah.

14:23

Scared for this little 10-week-old

14:26

baby, scared for the mother of the

14:28

family, Frank Morris was the

14:30

first officer to arrive at the campground.

14:33

Inside the Chamberlain's tent, he

14:35

found blood on one of

14:37

the rugs and paw prints leading

14:39

away from the tent entrance. The

14:42

paw prints faded when they reached the roof.

14:45

And to me, the evidence found

14:47

it at the scene. Inside this

14:49

tent seems to line

14:51

up with the fact that

14:54

there was some type of

14:56

wild animal, possibly a dingo

14:58

inside the tent, left

15:00

the tent, there's blood. Yeah.

15:03

So the story seems to add up. Yeah,

15:06

it does seem to go along with what

15:08

Lindy is saying. It was

15:10

reported that Aiden Chamberlain cried

15:12

to camper Sally Lowe, the

15:15

dingo has our bubby in

15:17

its tummy. That's really,

15:19

really sad. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. You're

15:21

talking about a very young child

15:24

thinking that, you know, their

15:27

10-week-old little sister

15:29

has been eaten by a wild dog.

15:31

Yeah. What a lasting memory that would

15:33

be. Around 300 campers

15:36

started searching the Scrubland for

15:38

the baby dingo tracks or

15:40

pieces of clothing. The

15:42

searchers found dingo tracks, but no

15:44

other evidence, pointing to baby as

15:46

areas where about. So, yeah,

15:48

I talked about it before, but there was

15:51

apparently a lot of people camping

15:53

in and around this

15:55

spot to get 300 campers to join in.

16:00

quickly means there were a lot of

16:02

people around. But one

16:04

person who did not join the

16:06

search was Michael Chamberlain, which

16:08

is strange, being the father of

16:11

the baby. Very strange. He

16:13

told one camper, she's probably dead now,

16:15

then added, I am a

16:18

minister of the gospel. What a strange

16:20

thing to say, right? Your baby

16:22

could be alive, or maybe you

16:24

just like to recover your baby's body.

16:27

Yeah, to me as

16:29

a father, I'm going out there, I

16:33

can't just sit there. I

16:35

have to go on the chance that she

16:39

stole up. And I have to

16:41

believe that until told otherwise.

16:44

How do you feel good that all these

16:46

other people are looking and you're like,

16:48

she's probably dead. Yeah, it did

16:50

seem very odd. I

16:53

also thought this statement,

16:55

I am a minister of the

16:57

gospel, was a little bit odd to

16:59

me. He's correct, but

17:02

I don't know what the point was

17:04

of saying it in this situation. Was

17:07

he trying to say, well, if it's her fate from

17:09

the powers to be, then that's what it

17:11

is. I don't know. I don't

17:14

know how to make sense of it. A

17:16

tourist named Murray Habe followed

17:18

dingo tracks to a sandwich.

17:20

He saw a depression in the sand

17:23

where the dingo might've laid something down.

17:25

It was thought that the depression could

17:27

have been made by Azaria's body. There

17:30

were no additional dingo tracks leading

17:32

away from the depression. A

17:35

park ranger and an indigenous

17:37

tracker studied the depression and

17:40

determined that an imprint in the sand could

17:42

have been made by a knitted weave, possibly

17:45

from the baby's clothing. So

17:48

they're coming up with some things. I mean,

17:50

some of these are speculative. They

17:52

have to be, they don't know for

17:54

sure, but they're saying it

17:56

possibly could be this. The

17:59

four officers assigned assigned to the case had

18:01

a meeting at the Red Sands Motel. Inspector

18:03

Michael Gilroy said he believed

18:06

Lindy's story, but two others,

18:08

Frank Morris and John Lincoln,

18:10

did not. Michael Gilroy noted

18:12

that there had been a recent series

18:14

of dingo attacks on children in the

18:16

park, but none were fatal. John

18:19

Lincoln didn't think a dingo

18:22

could carry a 10-pound baby. Hundreds

18:24

of yards away from the tent, he

18:26

left the meeting and returned with a bucket. Filled

18:29

with 10 pounds of sand. He tried

18:31

to hold it in his mouth, but couldn't

18:33

do it longer than a minute. Yeah,

18:36

but he's a human, and

18:39

dogs, canines are built

18:41

differently. So I don't know if you

18:43

could really say that

18:45

a dingo couldn't do it.

18:47

Yeah, it doesn't seem like

18:49

a real scientific test. And

18:51

then to kind of base

18:53

your decision on that,

18:56

I thought was pretty strange.

18:59

You know, a dog's bite

19:02

pressure versus a human. You

19:05

know, how hungry, when's the

19:07

last time they ate? Yeah, the determination

19:09

would be even more so. Right. What's

19:11

your determination to carry a bucket of

19:14

sand? Mine is very little. Yeah.

19:16

But it's because I don't need to. But

19:18

if that was a bucket of olives,

19:22

you might carry it. And I hadn't

19:24

eaten in a long time. And you

19:27

know, you think, okay, a couple of hundred

19:29

yards. Well, an

19:31

American football field is 100 yards. Right.

19:33

It's not that far. No. So two

19:36

of those. You know, could a

19:39

dingo do that? I personally

19:41

can't sit here and say they couldn't.

19:43

Yeah, I don't know. I'm

19:45

just thinking, you know, if I had to carry

19:47

a gallon and a half of milk in my mouth, I

19:49

don't know how I'd do that. But that'd be about 10

19:51

pounds. I don't know, but I'd pay mine to see it.

19:54

Tried. I'll do it at crime con. It'd

19:57

be difficult. But again, this is The

20:00

strength of your jaw, you know,

20:02

compared to a wild animal's, I

20:05

just, I don't know how you can equate

20:07

the two. And their necks are different

20:09

than our necks. That's absolutely true.

20:12

I mean, you know, the fact that an

20:14

ant can carry X amount times

20:17

its body weight. Yeah. Animals can

20:19

do a lot of things

20:21

that we cannot do. Don't even get

20:23

me started on center of gravity and

20:26

all that stuff when I gave that lecture,

20:29

you know, 10 years ago. You gave a

20:31

whole lecture on nothing but center of

20:33

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22:29

The clothing was found by a tourist on August 24th, 1980. A

22:34

man named Wally Goodwin went to a

22:36

gully at the base of Ayers

22:38

Rock to photograph some wildflowers. He

22:41

found a densely foliated animal

22:43

path and saw shredded

22:45

clothes resting near a boulder. The

22:48

clothing was determined to be a

22:50

torn diaper and jumpsuit. But

22:53

despite the evidence of a dingo

22:55

attack, the police were highly suspicious

22:57

of Lindy and Michael Chamberlain. And

23:00

I'm struggling to figure out why. I

23:02

really am at this point in

23:04

the story. Let's look

23:06

back at the animal tracks,

23:09

the blood in the tent. Now

23:11

a torn diaper

23:14

and a shredded jumpsuit is found.

23:17

Which could possibly lead you to

23:19

believe there was an animal involved.

23:22

And there was a lot of people

23:24

around when they were cooking. It was

23:26

only like 10 minutes when she left the grilling area

23:28

to put the baby down and came back. Yeah,

23:30

we're going to get into some of the details

23:32

of what people may or may not have seen,

23:35

heard, all of that. On

23:38

August 28th, Detective Sergeant Graham

23:41

Charlwood took over the investigation.

23:44

He read Inspector Gilroy's first

23:46

report. Gilroy reported that

23:48

when Lindy brought Azaria to the

23:50

doctor for a checkup, she was

23:52

wearing all black. The doctor

23:55

decided to look up the meaning of

23:57

the name Azaria in the dictionary of

23:59

names. which said that Azaria

24:01

means sacrifice in the

24:03

wilderness in Hebrew. However,

24:06

it actually means helped by God.

24:09

And those are two very

24:11

different definitions, very different,

24:13

different spectrum. So if you're

24:15

the police and you hear

24:17

sacrifice in the wilderness and

24:19

you're already suspicious of the chamber

24:21

ones, does that add

24:24

to your suspicion? And my answer is, yeah,

24:26

I think it would. This led

24:28

to speculation that Azaria's death

24:31

was some sort of religious

24:33

sacrifice. Well, you take what

24:35

they believe the meaning of the name is

24:38

and the fact that when she was at the medical

24:40

office, she had black on, right?

24:42

The funeral colors, even though I wear black

24:44

to make myself look skinnier. And

24:46

I guess this fuels their

24:48

suspicion. Yeah, I'm struggling with

24:50

it. I mean, a lot of people wear

24:53

black. It doesn't mean that

24:55

they're participating in

24:58

some type of religious sacrifice. Some

25:00

people just like all black. Yeah,

25:02

Johnny Cash. There you go.

25:05

Inspector Gilroy also

25:07

wrote that Azaria's clothes were found close

25:09

to where the family hiked earlier in

25:11

the day. According to his

25:14

report, people who saw Lindy that

25:16

evening assumed she was holding

25:18

a baby when they had

25:20

seen her holding a white bundle

25:22

to her breasts. You know, if

25:25

I was in that area at the time

25:27

and I saw a woman that recently

25:29

had a child and

25:31

she was holding what appeared

25:33

to be a baby up against her breasts,

25:35

I would think the same thing. Yeah, I

25:38

just thought it was just a strange way

25:40

to write that in

25:42

the report, assumed she was holding

25:44

a baby. I mean, technically it

25:47

is correct. I'm sure when

25:49

people were interviewed, they said, well, maybe

25:52

we didn't see the baby. We just assumed she

25:54

was holding a baby. Yeah. But unless we're talking

25:56

about a we're the

25:58

Miller situation. here where

26:01

Jennifer Aniston was holding a big

26:04

brick of marijuana as a baby. Yes, a

26:06

little different. I would

26:08

think people would have

26:11

known. Remember we talked about them talking

26:13

to another couple who had a baby.

26:16

The baby didn't make a sound, didn't move.

26:18

I mean, it seemed like there would

26:20

be some clues there, but Australian

26:23

investigators sent samples of blood,

26:25

vegetation, and hair found on

26:27

the clothing for testing. Dingoes

26:30

that were shot near Ayers Rock

26:32

were dissected to check for human

26:34

bone or human protein in

26:36

their stomach. Tears in Azaria's clothing

26:38

were studied to see if they were

26:40

made by dingo teeth or

26:42

a cutting instrument. At the

26:45

Cleveland Park Wildlife Reserve in

26:47

Adelaide, dingoes were fed meat

26:49

wrapped in a diaper so investigators

26:52

could study the shredded diapers

26:55

in comparison to the one worn

26:57

by Azaria. Well, it

26:59

really seems like investigators are trying to

27:01

figure out if a dingo was involved or not.

27:03

Yeah. Despite the fact that people

27:06

had their reservations, some people

27:09

in law enforcement were very

27:11

suspicious of the Chamberlain's, you'd

27:13

have to admit that they

27:16

did go down the road to figure

27:19

out if this dingo theory was correct.

27:21

Meanwhile, there were rumors that the

27:24

Chamberlain's were somehow connected to the

27:27

Jonestown mass suicide, which

27:29

occurred just two years earlier. Another

27:32

rumor was that Azaria was killed

27:34

to atone for the sins of

27:36

the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The

27:40

Seventh Day Adventist denomination was

27:42

unfamiliar to many Australians at

27:44

this time, and this likely

27:46

fueled these unusual claims. Well,

27:48

just rumors like that, along with the

27:51

baby's name, the meaning of

27:53

it. And then the fact that the mom was

27:55

wearing black, I mean, you could just see how

27:57

all this would compound into the. belief

28:00

that they had something to do with it. Yeah,

28:02

I think you're right. I don't

28:04

know where the Jonestown rumor came

28:06

in at all, but reporters

28:08

also analyze the Chamberlain's

28:10

behavior and criticize them for

28:12

not coming across as

28:15

typical grieving parents. And

28:17

we see this in, you know,

28:19

so many different cases. People

28:22

are analyzed, you know,

28:24

when they give interviews or speak to

28:26

the media, they're crying too

28:28

much. They're not crying enough. They're

28:31

not acting like I would act.

28:34

And it's tough. I think you have to

28:36

be really careful with that. Yeah, I agree. But

28:39

I still found it strange that the

28:41

dad didn't search for his child. Yeah.

28:44

And maybe that was part of

28:47

the behavior that was analyzed

28:49

by people. That doesn't

28:51

seem like a typical grieving parent.

28:53

I'll give you that. Now,

28:56

sometimes people are correct when

28:58

they look at, you know, someone

29:01

talking to the media, for example,

29:04

Steven McDaniel, Chris Watts. There are

29:06

a number of examples where people

29:09

said right away, that person's

29:11

not acting right. Yeah. And they turned

29:13

out to be correct. But

29:15

I think more often than not, it's

29:18

really hard to do that because

29:20

you don't know if somebody

29:22

has cried themselves

29:24

completely out the

29:27

night before. Out of tears. Out of tears. Maybe

29:30

they're on so much anxiety

29:33

medicine that they're not acting

29:35

the way that they would normally act, but

29:37

it's what they need to get through. In

29:40

a later interview with BBC, Lindy

29:42

said they initially agreed to talk to

29:45

the press to warn other parents. She

29:47

said what the Australian public

29:49

saw was what the media wished

29:52

to portray of me. Initially

29:54

I broke down in the first interview

29:56

I did, and the media comes

29:58

towards you and they say, look. We

30:00

are terribly sorry about what's happened to

30:02

your daughter. We are upset

30:05

there is nothing around to warn people.

30:07

We know you are. Will you help us

30:10

do it? And of course, you

30:12

say yes. And we did. And

30:15

that first reporter went straight away and said

30:17

that the interview was too easy and

30:19

they didn't show enough emotion. Despite

30:22

the fact that she broke down in the middle

30:24

of it, there must be something wrong. The

30:27

police were feeding information all the

30:29

time to the press, which we

30:31

had no way of combating. So

30:33

the public got these initial pictures

30:36

of some dreadful woman. And

30:38

whenever I cried in interviews like

30:40

this, for instance, they would edit

30:42

that out because the public would

30:44

get upset. So if you

30:46

smiled at a joke, you

30:49

were told you were uncaring. If

30:51

you cried, you were acting. So

30:53

this was the witch that

30:55

everybody knew. And it's kind of what

30:57

I was talking about before. Yeah, exactly.

31:01

People have expectations of

31:03

how they believe grieving

31:05

parents should act. Now, what

31:08

I will say is if you're

31:10

editing things to make it look

31:13

a certain way, that's horrible.

31:16

It is. Shame on the media if they

31:18

did that. If that really happened, then

31:21

they really did a disservice to

31:23

the public and to the parents. Exactly.

31:27

On October 1st, 1980, Lindy

31:29

and Michael did separate interviews

31:31

with a detective in Mount

31:33

Esa. Lindy was questioned

31:35

about her timeline after the

31:37

family left Ayers Rock. According

31:40

to Detective Sergeant Graham Trowell,

31:42

Lindy had what he

31:45

called an unusual reaction when

31:47

he suggested she undergo hypnosis

31:49

to try to recall more

31:51

details about the night of the

31:53

attack. Lindy said, the church wouldn't

31:56

allow it and I wouldn't do it. God

31:59

slew Saul. for that. Do you

32:01

know Saul the Witch of Endor? Well,

32:03

but that's her religious belief, right? So

32:06

can they attack her on that? Well,

32:08

they can and probably did.

32:10

Yeah. The question is, is

32:13

it right to? People will do

32:15

all kinds of things, should they?

32:18

Now, if she truly

32:20

believed that hypnosis

32:22

was against her religion,

32:24

then what are you gonna

32:27

do? She doesn't have to do it anyway.

32:29

Oh, she does. I'd be like, no Frodo.

32:31

But does it make her

32:34

in the eyes of the

32:36

public when this comes out, because you know

32:38

it's gonna come out, look even

32:40

worse? She doesn't want to

32:42

undergo hypnosis. So she must

32:45

be guilty. She must

32:47

be hiding something. Yeah. Yeah. And

32:49

I think a lot of people have the same

32:52

thoughts about a polygraph, right? This person

32:54

doesn't want to take a polygraph. They must

32:56

be guilty or they must be hiding something.

32:59

And sometimes that's true. And sometimes it's not.

33:02

The police decided to transfer the

33:04

case to magistrate Dennis

33:06

Barrett, who led the first

33:08

coroner's inquest. The inquiry

33:10

opened on December 15th, 1980, and concluded

33:12

on February 20th,

33:16

1981. Prosecutor

33:18

Ashley Macne argued that there

33:21

was human intervention in Azaria's

33:23

death. The clothes were planted,

33:26

and the damage to the clothing was

33:28

inconsistent with being caused by a dingo.

33:32

The magistrate concluded that Azaria

33:35

met her death when attacked by

33:37

a wild dingo, whilst

33:39

asleep in her family's tent.

33:42

Neither Michael nor Lindy were

33:44

quote in any degree whatsoever

33:46

responsible for her death. However,

33:49

the way Azaria's clothing

33:52

was found led the

33:54

judge to believe that the

33:56

body of Azaria was taken from the

33:58

possession of the dingo. and

34:01

disposed of by an unknown

34:03

method, by a person or

34:05

person's name, unknown. And

34:07

to me, that was a really surprising

34:11

conclusion. I thought that

34:14

the judge came to. Yeah. First,

34:17

saying Azaria was killed

34:19

by a wild dingo. No

34:21

one in the family had anything whatsoever

34:24

to do with her death. But

34:27

after she died, someone

34:29

disposed of her body. It

34:32

was a big twist there at the end. Yeah.

34:34

I was shocked, to be honest with you. Prosecutors

34:37

chose to continue looking into

34:39

the case. On September

34:41

19, 1981,

34:44

officers from the Northern Territory Police

34:46

conducted a search of the Chamberlain

34:48

home. They used

34:50

over 300 items, including scissors and

34:53

the vehicle that the family drove to

34:55

Ayers Rock. The search

34:57

was prompted by the findings

35:00

of British forensic expert James

35:02

Cameron. Not only a great movie director, also

35:05

a British forensic expert. Yeah.

35:08

Cameron examined Azaria's clothing and

35:10

determined that a dingo did

35:12

not cause the damage. That

35:14

could have a profound impact on

35:16

this case. Yeah, absolutely.

35:18

I mean, you have a

35:21

forensic expert flatly coming

35:23

out and saying a dingo

35:25

did not cause the damage. Lindy

35:28

reportedly responded to his findings by saying,

35:30

I didn't know there were

35:32

any dingo experts in London. Kind

35:35

of like a little burn there. Yeah, touche. Yeah.

35:38

In November 1981, the Attorney General

35:40

for the Northern Territory filed a

35:42

motion to quash the findings of

35:44

the first inquest based on new

35:46

evidence. Authorities said they

35:48

found large quantities of blood in the

35:51

Chamberlain's vehicle. On

35:53

November 18, 1981, the

35:55

Supreme Court of the Northern Territory

35:57

quashed the findings of the first

35:59

inquest. quest and ordered a

36:01

new inquiry. The second inquest

36:03

opened on December 14, 1981, and concluded on

36:08

February 2, 1982.

36:11

This time the prosecution argued

36:13

that, based on interviews with

36:15

the couple, Lindy took Azaria

36:17

from the campsite on the evening

36:19

of August 17 and

36:22

murdered her with a sharp instrument in

36:24

the family vehicle. Biologist

36:26

Joy Kuhl testified that

36:28

she found fetal blood under

36:31

the passenger seat of the car. James

36:33

Cameron testified that the tear

36:36

on Azaria's jumpsuit was more

36:38

consistent with scissors than a

36:40

dingoes teeth. So this has really

36:42

taken a turn. Yeah. I mean,

36:44

this second inquest, much

36:47

different than the first because,

36:49

number one, they found this blood. And

36:52

so you have a number of

36:54

experts who are testifying kind

36:57

of backing up or at

36:59

least trying to back up the

37:01

prosecution's theory. At

37:04

the end of the inquest, coroner

37:06

Jerry Galvin charged Lindy with murder

37:09

and charged Michael with being an

37:11

accessory after the fact. Lindy

37:14

and Michael's trial opened on September 13, 1982. And

37:16

by this time, Lindy was pregnant with her

37:20

fourth child. Prosecutor Ian Barker

37:23

told the jury that Azaria died

37:25

quickly because her throat was cut.

37:28

He also noted that the prosecution

37:30

would not suggest a motive for

37:32

the murder, saying, per the

37:34

website, famous trials, it is

37:36

not part of our case that Mrs.

37:39

Chamberlain had previously shown

37:41

any ill will toward the

37:43

child. And that's an

37:45

interesting scenario to me. You

37:47

know, the prosecution coming right out

37:49

and saying, hey, we're not going

37:51

to tell you or even

37:54

try to suggest what

37:56

the motive was for Lindy

37:58

to kill her. 10 week

38:00

old baby. We're just going to say she

38:03

did it. We don't know why she did it, but

38:05

she did. Barker called Lindy

38:07

story of the dingo attack a

38:10

fanciful lie. The first witness

38:12

was camper Sally Lowe. She

38:14

testified Lindy was gone for six to

38:16

10 minutes on the night of the

38:18

murder. Lowe said, I heard

38:21

the baby cry, quite a serious

38:23

cry just before Lindy went

38:25

to the tent and claim

38:27

she saw a dingo leaving the

38:29

campsite on cross examination.

38:32

Lowe said she was positive. She

38:34

heard a baby cry and the

38:36

cry came from the Chamberlain's tent. And,

38:39

you know, I want to go back to Sally

38:42

Lowe because I did think she was

38:44

going to be an important part of

38:47

this case, right? Lindy and

38:49

Michael are talking to Sally

38:52

and her husband. I

38:54

didn't want to get into it earlier,

38:56

but one of my big questions was

38:59

how could someone

39:02

not have heard this baby

39:04

cry? I've been around a lot of babies.

39:07

Why is that? I've had a lot

39:09

of nieces and so family,

39:12

family, not just strange

39:14

random babies. No, just

39:17

family. Um, and

39:19

I think you would hear baby when it

39:21

cries. Well, here's the thing. Lindy

39:24

couldn't have been the only one

39:27

with the ability to hear this baby. I

39:29

just think if there was other people around, they

39:32

would have heard. When Sally is

39:34

saying she heard, you know, the

39:36

other thing that she testified to was

39:39

that, you know, Lindy was only gone for

39:42

six to 10 minutes. Yeah, pretty quick.

39:44

Is that enough time to

39:47

do all of the things that

39:49

the prosecution claims she did? Maybe

39:52

it is. Maybe it isn't. I don't know. Right.

39:54

But if the baby really was crying

39:57

in the tent, I

39:59

think it does change. the prosecution's

40:01

theory or at least it

40:03

puts it in doubt. Yeah, I agree with you. Sally's

40:06

husband, Greg, was asked if he saw

40:09

the Chamberlain's cleaning blood from their vehicle.

40:11

He said he never did. Witness

40:14

Judy West testified that she heard

40:16

Lindy shout, the dingoes got my

40:18

baby about five to 10

40:20

minutes after she heard a dingo growl

40:23

nearby. Before this, she had

40:25

to run off a dingo that

40:27

grabbed her 12-year-old daughter by the

40:29

arm. It's looking worse and worse for

40:31

the prosecution, I think, when you hear

40:33

these things. Well, there were definitely

40:36

dingoes around. I mean, the

40:38

prosecution is saying that she

40:40

made the dingo in the tent

40:43

up, but it wasn't like they weren't

40:46

around this area. Witness Amy

40:48

Whitaker testified that minutes after the

40:50

attack, Michael Chamberlain appeared at the

40:53

doorway of her camper and said,

40:55

a dingo has taken our baby and

40:57

she is probably dead by now. Again,

41:00

going back to Michael, I do think some of

41:02

his comments were strange. There's no

41:04

other way for me to look at them.

41:07

But it doesn't mean what they said

41:09

happened happened. No, it doesn't.

41:11

I just find them strange.

41:13

When Whitaker tried to comfort

41:15

Lindy, Lindy said, whatever happens,

41:17

it is God's will. And

41:19

this is where some people

41:22

will say, okay, that's odd. And

41:25

to some people it is. But

41:27

to others who have a

41:30

certain type of faith, maybe

41:32

it's not. Yeah, I think just

41:35

because that's what she says and that's how

41:38

her belief, as far as her religion

41:40

goes, like you said, it's strange to

41:42

some, but for her, it's normal.

41:45

Whitaker testified that she saw Lindy

41:47

and Michael walking alone into the

41:49

bushland for 15 to 20 minutes.

41:52

This occurred around the time the prosecution

41:55

argued they might have buried the baby.

41:57

The prosecution then called on. Keith

42:00

Linahan, who was described as

42:03

a bleeding hitchhiker picked up

42:05

by the Chamber Lens in The

42:09

defense countered that Linahan could account for the

42:11

blood in the vehicle, but the

42:13

prosecution responded that he

42:16

would not have unusually high

42:18

levels of fetal hemoglobin in

42:20

his bloodstream. Biologist

42:23

Dr. Andrew Scott testified that the

42:25

blood on Azaria's jumpsuit flowed downward

42:28

from what appeared to be a

42:30

cut by a sharp instrument in

42:32

the neck area. Another

42:34

forensic expert testified that the

42:37

jumpsuit appeared to have been

42:39

cut, not torn by a

42:41

dingo. So just as

42:43

you said, there are

42:45

some things that weren't looking good

42:48

for the prosecution. Now you

42:50

have a bevy of professionals,

42:53

experts who are

42:56

making things look better for

42:59

the prosecution. Yeah, when you

43:01

have experts saying that it's scissors

43:03

or something like a pair of scissors that

43:05

made those cuts, it's not good. Well,

43:07

let's be clear though, they're

43:09

saying it appeared. Some

43:13

of these people, they're not

43:15

testifying that it

43:18

happened this way. They're

43:20

couching it a little bit, right? Their

43:22

words are saying it appeared to

43:24

be cut, not torn

43:27

by a dingo. Now what we

43:29

don't know is what tests and

43:31

everything that they did to come

43:33

to their conclusions. The

43:36

South Dakota Stories, Volume 5. South

43:38

Dakota seemed like the perfect place to unplug,

43:41

but I ended up connecting to the world

43:43

around me. A world where

43:45

each sunset was painted, where

43:48

I felt adventures pulse with every

43:50

step, and where cold water trickling,

43:53

pine swaying, and grunting bison

43:55

became my favorite soundtracks.

43:58

I just wish I didn't have to leave. There's

44:00

so much South Dakota, so

44:02

little time. Professor

44:06

Malcolm Chaikin, considered

44:08

the leading textile expert in the

44:10

country, demonstrated how cutting

44:12

the jumpsuit would produce

44:14

small loops of toweling, like

44:17

the ones found in Michael's camera

44:19

bag. And this fit the

44:22

prosecution's theory well because

44:25

the police suspected Lindy

44:27

temporarily hid Azaria's body

44:29

in this bag. But on

44:32

cross-examination, the defense got Chaikin

44:34

to admit the loops also

44:36

could have come from a

44:38

new unwashed jumpsuit. The Chamberlain

44:40

said they sometimes put Azaria's clothes

44:42

in the camera bag. And

44:45

I'll be honest with you, expert

44:47

testimony is often what

44:49

fascinates me in a trial. It

44:52

really is, especially when

44:54

you go back to when

44:56

forensic science was a little

44:59

less certain, appears

45:01

microscopically similar. Things

45:04

like that. I understand

45:06

these people are experts, but

45:09

do they get it right 100% of the

45:11

time? Because

45:13

I don't look at this like I

45:15

do today's DNA testing.

45:17

Right. It's different. It is.

45:20

I mean, these are opinions

45:23

in a lot of instances. And

45:25

I get what he's saying happened,

45:28

Michael. I mean, I've been with my

45:30

kids when they were little, you know, if

45:32

it's at a park, amusement

45:34

park or something, or hiking,

45:36

you know, you take, you don't want to

45:38

carry a bunch of things, right? So if

45:41

it's your camera bag, you got some little

45:43

extra room, stuff a diaper and maybe an

45:45

extra change of clothes just in case, you

45:48

know, and you need to take off. Sure. You know,

45:50

you're not going to carry all

45:52

these different bags with you. Why would you do that?

45:55

Not if you can help it. Yeah. But

45:58

again, you know, he's saying. Cutting

46:00

the jumpsuit would produce these small

46:03

loops of toweling, but then

46:05

he also admitted that the

46:07

loops could have come from a new unwashed jumpsuit.

46:09

So what does that mean? You

46:11

know, again, it's up to the jury or

46:13

the judge, however it goes. I just think

46:15

it confuses the jury. Well, I think

46:17

a lot of this stuff, especially when you come to

46:20

the real technical parts

46:22

of the trial, can be very confusing

46:25

to a jury. Biologist Joy

46:27

Kuhl testified that her test

46:30

proved the blood found on the

46:32

dash support bracket in the Chamberlain's

46:34

vehicle belonged to an infant. The

46:37

defense questioned the accuracy of the

46:39

blood test results and suggested

46:41

that the blood could have come from

46:43

the hitchhiker. Bernard Sims,

46:45

an expert who investigated two dozen

46:47

dog attacks in London, said he

46:50

saw nothing consistent with the dingo

46:52

attack in his area's clothing. He

46:54

testified that an attack by a

46:57

dingo would have caused

46:59

copious bleeding. He also believed

47:01

the baby's head could not

47:03

fit in a dingo's jaw.

47:06

Okay. I get it. He's an

47:08

expert. He investigated a bunch

47:10

of dog attacks. They weren't dingo

47:13

attacks. No. He's making

47:15

the statement that he doesn't believe the baby's

47:17

head could fit in a dingo's jaw, but

47:20

who's to say that's how a

47:23

dingo would have carried the baby out of

47:25

the tent? Well, that's true. Good to

47:27

grab the arm. The neck. Good to grab

47:29

the neck. However, the

47:31

defense presented a picture of the dingo

47:33

with the head of a life-size baby

47:35

doll in its jaw. Sims

47:38

conceded that he might have been

47:40

mistaken. You know, I've seen

47:42

some dogs around

47:44

here in the States that

47:46

easily can put something the size of

47:49

the baby's head in their mouth. Yeah,

47:51

I've seen dogs carry

47:53

things that I would have never thought

47:55

they could have. Yeah. Like, bigger than

47:58

their head almost seems like. But

48:00

again, it's so important

48:03

for me to talk about these experts.

48:06

They get up on the stand sometimes,

48:09

and they're very authoritative,

48:12

and yet now he's saying, well,

48:14

I might have been mistaken. That's

48:16

a problem. It's a big problem.

48:18

You are saying things that are

48:20

going to determine the fate

48:23

of someone or two

48:25

people's lives, and now you're saying,

48:27

whoops, oopsie. If you're the expert, either you

48:29

know or you don't know. You don't go up there

48:31

and act like you know for sure. But

48:34

he also said he believed that

48:37

a baby's head could not fit in

48:39

a dingo's jaw. If you're an expert,

48:41

like you said, I think

48:43

you got to deal in facts because the

48:45

jury is going to take that more

48:48

as a fact than not,

48:51

because it's coming from a quote-unquote

48:53

expert. James Cameron, a

48:56

professor of forensic medicine, testified

48:58

that Azaria was killed

49:00

by a cutting instrument across the

49:02

neck or around the neck held

49:05

by a human. He showed the

49:07

jury photos of Azaria's clothing under

49:09

a UV light. In his

49:11

opinion, the light illuminated the

49:14

pattern of bloody fingers on

49:16

the clothing. Again, I

49:18

would think some of this testimony

49:20

from these experts would be very

49:22

powerful. But do they know for sure

49:25

or are they giving their speculation,

49:29

their best approximation of

49:31

what they believe happens? Yeah,

49:34

as a jury, you're probably saying,

49:36

well, they're the expert. They

49:38

should know. They should know. If they're saying this is what

49:40

it is. Oh, okay. Wendy Chamberlain

49:43

testified in her own defense.

49:46

She was asked to put her

49:48

index finger next to the photos

49:50

of Azaria's clothing under a UV

49:52

light. The defense noted that the

49:54

photo showed four phalanges, the

49:56

bones of the fingers and toes, but

49:58

human fingers, excluding the thumb,

50:01

only have three phalanges.

50:03

I've always told you that we don't have

50:05

a lot of phalanges. You have. That's

50:08

one thing you talk about a lot. The prosecution

50:10

questioned Lindy's story. She

50:12

was asked why there was not a large

50:14

quantity of blood around the tent if

50:17

the dingo was holding the baby in its mouth.

50:20

She was also asked to explain the fetal

50:22

blood in her vehicle. Lindy

50:24

said, per Famous Trials, I'm not going

50:26

to speculate how it got there. Several

50:29

character witnesses testified on behalf of

50:32

the Chamberlain saying they were devastated

50:34

by the loss of their daughter.

50:37

Other witnesses testified about dingo

50:39

encounters at Ayers Rock. Eight

50:42

forensic experts attacked the test

50:44

results of the prosecution

50:47

experts. This is where you

50:49

have in many trials the battle of

50:51

the expert. Who is

50:53

to be believed? Who comes off

50:55

better? The prosecution's

50:57

experts or the defense's

51:00

experts? If we're all experts,

51:02

why does this side fall

51:05

in line exactly with the

51:07

defense and why does this side

51:09

fall in line exactly with the

51:11

prosecution? You're left scratching your head

51:13

going, hmm, which way do I go?

51:16

Dingo expert Les Harris testified

51:19

that a dingo going after

51:21

Prick, the size of baby

51:23

Azaria, would, quote,

51:26

make seizure, which would

51:28

be of the entire head, and

51:30

it would close its jaws sufficiently

51:33

to render the mammal immobile. The

51:35

dingo would not hang around with

51:38

the prey. Harris also testified

51:40

that dingo kills produce

51:42

little blood and that they

51:44

typically shake their heads

51:47

after catching prey to break

51:49

the neck. All right, that's tough

51:51

to imagine. It is heartbreaking,

51:54

but he's an expert in dingoes, and

51:56

this expert's testimony fits

51:59

with the crime scene. What does

52:01

seem to sit with the Thames seen

52:03

for sir. Michael. Chamberlain was

52:05

the final defense witness. He was

52:07

question about why he didn't participate

52:09

in the search for his. But.

52:12

I couldn't really fucking anywhere in

52:14

the research as to what his

52:16

answer was. We. Already know

52:18

that he said. She

52:21

was probably already dead. And

52:23

we also said it didn't seem right,

52:25

didn't make him look good. New.

52:27

And. Closing the defense soldiers that

52:29

the prosecution had two years to

52:32

think of a reason why Lindy

52:34

would want to kill as area,

52:36

but they had nothing. The.

52:38

Prosecution conceded that there was no

52:41

proven mode. But. Said it

52:43

wasn't their job to find. The.

52:45

Prosecutor noted the lack of dingo

52:47

hairs are drag marks new the

52:49

Ten: How no one saw a

52:52

dingo carrying a baby. And.

52:54

The relatively undamaged condition.

52:57

Of Azeri his jumpsuit. Before.

52:59

Deliberations, the judge reminded the jury

53:01

that witness Sally Low heard a

53:04

baby crying on the night of

53:06

Aug seventeenth. Nineteen Eight. If.

53:08

Her testimony was true. The

53:10

prosecution's argument that as area was

53:12

already dead could not be true.

53:15

And. That's why I saw that. You

53:17

know Sally Low was going to be

53:19

so important. You. But. On October

53:22

Twenty Nine, Nineteen Eighty Two, the

53:24

jury found Lindy Chamberlain guilty of

53:26

murder. And Michael Chamberlain

53:28

guilty of being an accessory after

53:31

the fact. Lindy. Was sense

53:33

to life in prison with hard labor. Michael's.

53:36

Eighteen months since was suspended.

53:39

Or. Labor. Linda. Gave birth

53:41

to her daughter colleagues on November

53:43

seventeenth nights and eighty to. Two.

53:46

Days later, she was released on

53:48

bail. Pending. Her appeal. If.

53:51

He had nothing to do the death of your child.

53:53

This. Is a to so told a nightmare

53:55

right? Absolutely. You.

53:58

Lost your job, Is. Probably

54:00

then all your money, Fighting.

54:02

For your freedom. And

54:04

the whole world thinks your child kill.

54:06

Yeah. Australia Federal Court

54:09

rejected Lindy appeal in April

54:11

Nineteen Eighty Three. The. High

54:13

court refused to set aside the

54:15

conviction Ten months later. In.

54:17

The years after her conviction. The.

54:20

Free Lindy movement gained momentum.

54:23

New. Reports came delighted cast

54:25

doubt. On. The prosecution's

54:28

avid. One. Report stated

54:30

that the substance found in

54:32

the Chamberlain's vehicle. Wasn't.

54:34

Even blood. According to the

54:36

National Museum of Australia, the spray

54:39

pattern sound under the dashboard. Was.

54:41

A sound deadening. By.

54:43

Two minutes compel apply during

54:46

the cars manufacture while. This.

54:48

Is worse than the. These. Two

54:51

hairs are microscopically similar.

54:54

And. One I'm turns out to be a dog shit.

54:56

They're. In Nineteen Eighty Four. One.

54:58

Hundred and thirty one thousand

55:00

people signed petitions calling for

55:03

Lindy release. Me: Undies. application

55:05

for a full judicial inquiry

55:07

was rejected in November. Nineteen

55:09

Eighty Five. And. Her early

55:11

release application was rejected later

55:14

that month. Then. The

55:16

case took an unexpected turn in

55:18

January Nineteen Eighty Six, when thirty

55:21

one year olds hiker David Brent

55:23

died after falling off airs run.

55:26

I'm. assuming. There's. Probably been a

55:28

lot of people. Who. Have. Tried

55:31

to climb errors rock and

55:33

slipped and. Fell. To their

55:35

death. Eight days

55:37

later, his body was found below the

55:40

blocks in an area full of

55:42

dingo. Death according. To

55:44

The Sydney Morning Herald. The. Hiker

55:46

was missing his hand, arm, and

55:48

part of his leg most likely

55:51

from the fall and animal scavenging

55:53

after death. On. February second

55:55

nights and eighty six the police

55:57

were searching for breath missing bone.

56:00

And. Found a white and St.

56:02

Jacques. It. Matched the description

56:04

of as Area Chamberlain's missing jackets.

56:07

It was found a one hundred

56:09

and sixty meters from where her

56:11

jumpsuit was found in Nineteen Eight.

56:14

And. Or near worthier. Dingoes.

56:17

Dance were. This. Evidence was

56:19

enough to secure Lindy Chamberlain's

56:21

Fried. She. Left prison

56:23

on February Seventh. Nineteen Eighty

56:25

Six. And it really

56:27

wasn't much in the reserves

56:30

about why, exactly. This.

56:32

Evidence was enough. My

56:34

assumption was that. It

56:36

kind of disproved the

56:38

prosecution's theory that. They.

56:41

Buried. Her. Because they

56:43

would have buried the jacket with. Yeah.

56:45

That was my thought. I don't know if I'm

56:47

correct or not. And the fact that they

56:50

found the jacket over by the. Fingers. Then

56:52

yeah, I'm sure maybe that had

56:54

some the do that as well.

56:56

But Lindy legal battle wasn't over

56:58

Another inquiry into the case. Open

57:00

on May eighth, Nineteen Eighty Six.

57:03

On May twenty second, Nineteen Eighty Seven,

57:05

the judge issued a report which said.

57:08

Per. Famous Trials. It is

57:10

extraordinary that the person that

57:12

the barbecue area as a

57:14

time of and immediately after

57:17

Azeri his disappearance. Accepted

57:19

Mrs. Chamberlain stories and

57:21

node nothing about her

57:23

appearance and conduct suggesting

57:25

she had just suddenly

57:27

killed her. I far

57:29

from being persuade said Mrs.

57:31

Chamberlain's account. Of. Having seen

57:33

a dingo near the ten was false.

57:35

If the evidence before the commission had

57:38

been given it to trial, The.

57:40

Trial judge would have been obliged

57:42

to direct the jury to acquit

57:44

the chamberlain. While. And

57:46

I think the Jones has a real point there

57:48

that we haven't touched on. Who's

57:50

this guy? That. Lindy

57:53

left the barbecue area. And

57:55

killed her daughter. And. Then. What?

57:58

Walked back. No blood

58:00

on her. And was

58:02

acting completely norm. Right

58:05

as. If she had done nothing.

58:07

With. A net sixty two minutes I am from. It's

58:10

tough. Stuff. To believe. So.

58:12

I me I understand what the judges saying.

58:15

On September fifteenth, Nineteen Eighty

58:17

Eight, the Northern Territory Court

58:19

of Appeals floss to Windy

58:21

and Michael's convictions. Later that

58:24

year the Chamberlain's travel decision to see

58:26

a preview of the movie A Cry

58:28

in the Dark. Which. Is based

58:30

on their story. Windy. Also wrote

58:32

a book titled through My Switch

58:35

was published in Nineteen Ninety. Lindy.

58:37

And my goal divorced. and nineteen

58:40

Ninety One and Ninety Nine to

58:42

Wendy received one point three million

58:44

from the government for wrongful imprisonment.

58:47

And we see this quite a bit. Your.

58:50

We said they were married for

58:52

twenty years. Out. There.

58:54

Was a chunk of that time

58:56

where she was incarcerated right? Is.

58:58

Often very tough for couples to

59:01

stay together in the wake of.

59:03

In. A tragic event like losing a

59:05

child. Yeah. Now add

59:07

on top of that. The. Fact

59:10

that. They're. Accused Sars

59:12

and then convicted. Of

59:15

being responsible. And I don't

59:17

have any of the media

59:19

picking your party have. Even

59:22

the public. Fucking. You apart. In

59:24

December of Nineteen Ninety Two, Lindy

59:27

married Rick crate. An. American

59:29

publishers she met on a speaking

59:31

tour in the Us. They lived

59:33

in Seattle and then returned to

59:35

Australia. Nineteen Ninety Eight. While

59:37

Lindy was living in the Us,

59:39

another Coroner's inquest took place in

59:42

November. Nineteen Ninety Fuck. This.

59:44

Time It was what was called

59:46

a paper. Inquest: On

59:48

December sixteenth, nineteen Ninety Five Corner

59:51

John wound concluded as areas cause

59:53

of death could not be the

59:55

term. And I'll be real honest

59:58

with the gives I don't know. Our

1:00:00

could have come out any

1:00:02

other way. Nobody, right? How.

1:00:05

Can you have a cause of

1:00:07

death? On. August. Six, Two thousand

1:00:09

and Four. Frank. Coal, a

1:00:11

retiree from Melbourne, took a

1:00:13

lie detector test to verify

1:00:15

his story that he shot

1:00:18

the dingo. They. Killed as

1:00:20

area Chamberlain's in August Nineteen

1:00:22

Eighty. He. Claimed he showed

1:00:24

her body to his campaign. He.

1:00:27

Passed the polygraph, but Lindy

1:00:29

expressed doubts about his story.

1:00:31

And. And to me this was a very

1:00:33

strange. Part. Of

1:00:35

the story. Why would he

1:00:38

not? Have contacted the it's

1:00:40

worth it when I bring that

1:00:42

for it's important information. Are

1:00:44

referred. The. Authorities to know but

1:00:46

also. A family. And. Last,

1:00:48

he was doing something he should

1:00:50

have been doing. And. Was afraid

1:00:53

to come for I don't know you. In.

1:00:55

February two Thousand Twelve, a fourth

1:00:57

Coroner's inquest into the death of

1:01:00

his area Chamberlain was open. Corner.

1:01:03

Elizabeth Morphs heard evidence about

1:01:05

three fatal dingo attacks on

1:01:07

children's then had occurred since

1:01:09

the third and. So.

1:01:12

I mean, these are Not. Uncommon.

1:01:15

Apparently. On. June Twelve

1:01:18

Two thousand and Twelve corner. Morris

1:01:20

concluded that a dingo killed as

1:01:22

area chamber. The. Family received

1:01:25

the death certificate that verified

1:01:27

her cause of death. South.

1:01:29

I have to be. Consistent.

1:01:32

Yeah. I said I don't know how they

1:01:34

could have determined to cause of death. I'm

1:01:37

not really sure. How this

1:01:39

corner can say with certainty

1:01:41

that a dingo. Killed.

1:01:43

Her. I. Do believe that is

1:01:45

more likely than not that that's what

1:01:47

happened to me too. And maybe

1:01:50

that's a nuts? I don't know. But.

1:01:52

To be able to conclusively one

1:01:55

hundred percent say that I don't

1:01:57

know how anyone's. But. Maybe

1:01:59

that's. The criteria? That's.

1:02:01

Necessary. Great. As quoted

1:02:04

by The Guardian. Lindy. Said

1:02:06

after the ruling. No. Longer will

1:02:08

Australians be able to say dingoes

1:02:11

are not dangerous and will only

1:02:13

attack if provoked. We. Love this

1:02:15

beautiful country but it is dangerous and

1:02:17

we would ask all Australians to be

1:02:20

aware of this and take appropriate steps

1:02:22

and not wait for someone else to

1:02:24

do it for the. Oh. Dingoes

1:02:27

are a wild animal. Wild.

1:02:29

Animals can be dangerous. Michael.

1:02:31

Chamberlain died on January ninth,

1:02:33

two thousand and seventeen from

1:02:35

complications of acute leukemia. He

1:02:38

was seventy two years old.

1:02:40

Michael. Remarried and had been his

1:02:43

wife full time. Caretaker said she

1:02:45

suffered a stroke in two thousand

1:02:47

a web. Wendy. Made headlines

1:02:49

in October. Two thousand Twenty three.

1:02:51

When. She spoke out after

1:02:54

Australian mother Kathleen phobia. Was.

1:02:56

Pardoned in release from prison. Kathleen

1:02:59

serve twenty years after she

1:03:01

was wrongfully convicted. Of

1:03:03

murdering her for young children. And

1:03:06

he told Australian Women's Weekly. Kathleen's

1:03:08

case is once again really slap

1:03:10

this in the public space. For

1:03:13

years I've had something on my

1:03:15

mom that needs fixing. Needs.

1:03:17

Com. Kathleen. Full big

1:03:19

case has made me think that. Perhaps.

1:03:22

The public is now ready to listen to

1:03:24

what I have to set. Windy.

1:03:26

Discussed how the blood sound

1:03:28

in her car was not

1:03:30

actually blood. She suggested that

1:03:32

Ceases be randomly assigned to

1:03:34

blood specialist so they can

1:03:37

determine the reliability. Of

1:03:39

forensic avid. And I

1:03:41

am still blown away by that. I

1:03:43

don't know how you can have a

1:03:46

forensics expert. Testify.

1:03:48

That. This is fatal blood. When.

1:03:51

In fact, it's not blood,

1:03:53

but something sprayed on thereby

1:03:55

the car manufacturer. Yeah. How's

1:03:57

that? Get overlooked? Will because

1:03:59

whose. Tracking. The. Expert.

1:04:02

Who's. Coming behind the experts.

1:04:05

In. Redoing the task. Now we did

1:04:07

say. There. Were experts on the

1:04:09

other side? You disagreed, right? But.

1:04:11

If you're the jury, Who. Do

1:04:13

you believe. Your. It always comes

1:04:15

down to that. And. I do

1:04:18

think a lotta times. The. Jury

1:04:20

is more apt. To. Believe

1:04:22

the prosecution's expert. Because.

1:04:26

The prosecution. Is

1:04:28

the authority right? And.

1:04:31

I think many people have the sense.

1:04:33

The. Prosecution wouldn't put these people

1:04:35

through this, wouldn't put them

1:04:38

on trial if they didn't

1:04:40

know. That they did write

1:04:42

you a Ride on Brown Spots I

1:04:44

think. So. As we wrap

1:04:46

this one of. Gibbs. The

1:04:48

As area Chamberlain case is

1:04:51

closed, but there are still

1:04:53

unanswered questions. And they had

1:04:55

what. At. Least for inquests.

1:04:58

For. Remains have never been sounds. But.

1:05:01

Based on the evidence am and what

1:05:03

I saw him why I do think

1:05:05

the majority of people. Except

1:05:07

that she was fatally attacked

1:05:10

by a danger. And

1:05:12

I don't think that was the case.

1:05:14

Early on. I. Think that

1:05:16

opinion has. Shifted. Over.

1:05:19

Time Lawyer. But I'll tell you

1:05:21

what. I'm starting to get

1:05:23

upset. And. This is not an Australian

1:05:26

thing. It's ah, the U S thing. Seen

1:05:28

people convicted. On

1:05:30

evidence that experts

1:05:32

conclude absolutely means

1:05:34

at. And then

1:05:37

years later. You find

1:05:39

out that. It couldn't have

1:05:41

possibly meant death rate. That.

1:05:43

Is really starting to. Worry

1:05:46

me. Beyond. Frustration? Yes,

1:05:48

because. You can't help but

1:05:51

sit there and think. What? Is it

1:05:53

it happened to this person? He

1:05:55

could have happened in yeah. it's a

1:05:57

it's a helpless feeling you know whether

1:06:00

you're watching a documentary, you're

1:06:02

listening to a podcast, whatever

1:06:04

it is, I find

1:06:06

myself thinking, well, if I was

1:06:08

a juror, what would I make of

1:06:10

that? In the

1:06:12

1980s, let's say, an

1:06:14

expert says, I've examined

1:06:17

these two hairs and

1:06:19

they are microscopically similar because we

1:06:21

have to go with what was

1:06:23

available at the time. Sure. Yeah.

1:06:26

Am I going to take that person's word? They are an

1:06:28

expert. They're a forensic expert.

1:06:31

Now, 20 years later, you find out that one of them was

1:06:33

a dog hair. Right. We

1:06:35

believed them because they were the expert. I

1:06:38

don't know. It's frustrating. It's frustrating.

1:06:41

One thing that I've learned by me

1:06:43

and you doing these podcasts is the

1:06:46

legal system, really no

1:06:48

matter where you are, is far from perfect.

1:06:51

Oh, yeah. I don't know how you make

1:06:54

a perfect judicial system.

1:06:56

I really don't. But there's

1:06:58

got to be a better way. Yeah. I

1:07:01

think, could the justice

1:07:03

system somehow go

1:07:05

back and review certain cases where there was

1:07:07

certain doubts? Well, no, because it's

1:07:09

going to be too costly and they

1:07:11

don't want that, right? But you think about

1:07:14

this person that said this

1:07:16

was fetal blood. What other

1:07:18

cases did they get wrong? Well, yeah. And you

1:07:20

always look at that too. And you see in

1:07:22

a lot of instances

1:07:24

where somebody is

1:07:27

wrongfully convicted, one of

1:07:29

the experts who testified jacked

1:07:31

up a whole bunch of other cases. And

1:07:34

they immediately start ripping those cases apart

1:07:36

as well. I think it has

1:07:38

something to do with the jury. That's

1:07:41

maybe what's bothering me. I

1:07:43

mean, the jury concept is great, right?

1:07:45

Being judged by a jury of your

1:07:48

peers. But then I think

1:07:50

if I'm on trial for my life, do

1:07:52

I want my life in your hands?

1:07:55

And the answer is no. I

1:07:57

do not. Are you going to understand?

1:08:00

And. All. The Legal. Scientific.

1:08:03

Stuff that's going on. And. That

1:08:05

worries me. I wrote some of

1:08:07

them so I don't know. I don't know

1:08:09

I'll have the six, but. It's. Been

1:08:11

on my mind lately and I think it's

1:08:14

a. It's. A concern that is

1:08:16

concerned especially with the number wrongful convictions

1:08:18

and were some. But that's

1:08:20

it for our case on Lindy Chamberlain

1:08:23

in the deaths of As Area Chamber.

1:08:25

Once we have some voice mails your

1:08:27

check those out to. You

1:08:36

out? Of.

1:08:43

School for. Jury.

1:09:01

Duty. To.

1:09:06

See for you and super disco? Me

1:09:08

a goober? maybe? K: I

1:09:10

don't think you know. I mean

1:09:13

I appreciate voicemail. Very mods? Yeah,

1:09:15

Oh he's and Grinders

1:09:17

hoagie isn't grinders Navy

1:09:20

Beans Navy. Been. You.

1:09:23

Know that is I do not as

1:09:26

the once lady. Saw. It

1:09:28

on Adam Sandler. Okay, never heard

1:09:30

that. No. No. To see

1:09:32

says he tries of and. Down. By the

1:09:34

river down by know she said she wants

1:09:36

lady she but she is she does drive

1:09:38

for she got picked up oh sued I

1:09:40

think to deliver does the schools are things

1:09:42

are season? Yeah. Melville disagree were figured

1:09:45

you were. I don't even know if that's what she

1:09:47

said to be honest with you, but. I'm.

1:09:49

Can open it is. As

1:09:51

trails tell of column in regards to

1:09:53

of weeks ago I for like Ferguson

1:09:55

a coke or just and I wrote

1:09:57

and know and I said in that.

1:10:00

No, prepare it. I'll give it a

1:10:02

straight up. I guess I should probably

1:10:04

as context that was listening to actually

1:10:06

gone, went back and I was listening.

1:10:08

were you listening to add some one

1:10:11

hundred of teacher a jumper and down

1:10:13

the opening of the second around the

1:10:15

second half. So yeah I'm so honored

1:10:17

one he has gotten you chairs giving

1:10:20

was going on about how know he

1:10:22

had would slap my captain to cheer

1:10:24

and handed down the old chair. What

1:10:26

everybody knows you've got a new chair

1:10:28

just as well. He always always

1:10:30

time to put off the Hamilton up

1:10:33

like that. Well, my grandfather was said

1:10:35

to him straight off for diseases always

1:10:37

strewn around as all as matte. No

1:10:39

thanks for the shoutout guys! Keep up

1:10:42

the good work each time. I

1:10:44

will proceed to voicemail prices put

1:10:47

him on teacher But okay. well

1:10:49

that answers the question. Does? does

1:10:51

not your posture know? It's

1:10:54

sure. Everything is my

1:10:56

attitude assists his grandfather would

1:10:58

have thought aimed straight knobs.

1:11:00

Some. In your family was a hit

1:11:02

you with this fronting the racetrack

1:11:04

A reset Yeah A Hot Wheels

1:11:06

track? Absolutely No. Straight. Up

1:11:09

voiced straightener with the what to say

1:11:11

to me now and pause. Hi

1:11:14

buddy, That is it. For. Another episode

1:11:16

of True Crime All The Time on solves

1:11:18

the for Might give me stay safe and

1:11:21

keep your own time taking. Goober.

1:11:58

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