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true crime brewery contains disturbing

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concept related to real life crimes

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medical information is opinion based

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on facts of a crime and should not be

1:06

interpreted as medical advice or

1:08

training listener discretion is

1:10

advised

1:16

you

1:19

and i'm dick

1:21

yeah from milky was acute twenty

1:23

four year old single mother back in

1:25

nineteen eighty nine the in

1:27

or four year old son christopher were

1:30

living with a friend while deborah prepared

1:32

to move into her own apartment and started

1:34

a new job she was excited

1:37

for what she saw the first saving

1:39

up new clothing and household items

1:41

for her and christopher's new life the

1:44

turn on december circuit christopher

1:46

disappeared the arena for the

1:49

quiet and four dead woman walking

1:51

deborah son went missing on a trip

1:54

to see santa claus the appeared

1:56

to be frantic trying to do

1:58

everything possible to find fine

2:00

and bring him home safely deborah

2:02

revel he spoke with the police when

2:05

one detective finished interviewing deborah

2:08

the claimed to have a concession deborah

2:11

he said it had her son murdered

2:13

to collect and a small life insurance policy

2:16

and to escape the responsibilities of

2:18

motherhood put

2:20

on trial for murder and then abandoned

2:22

by most of her family and friends jebra

2:25

would find yourself living a twenty year nightmare

2:28

which was likely to end with her execution

2:31

lethal injection and

2:34

it happened in arizona what do we have

2:36

for a beer

2:37

we have a beer from for peaks brewing company

2:39

cause happening yeah no t

2:42

this is an american ip a six point

2:44

seven percent alcohol by volume in

2:47

okay beer or this limited that it

2:49

looks nice is gold small whitehead

2:52

some leasing

2:53

the aroma and the taste kind

2:56

of lacking

2:57

the institution pine and the aroma

3:00

a little sweet malt

3:02

on tuesday can tell is

3:04

karen know there and a muted citrus

3:06

and pie and it's not a happy

3:08

for an idea the is

3:11

reasonable i would not turn it down

3:13

the

3:14

the you know what i think of these beers sometimes

3:17

is if you're consistent

3:19

bud light drinker or something and you want

3:21

the train venture into craft beer

3:24

this is the kind of beer maybe to start out with

3:26

my be a good entry beer exactly

3:29

okay well let's open it

3:47

right and it's cozy appear

3:49

for a long discussion kind of a complicated

3:51

case that went on for years and years but

3:54

i really did site itself

3:55

the eating so i think our listeners will enjoy it

3:57

to her first moving and frustrating

4:00

yeah

4:01

yeah so's nineteen eighty nine was

4:03

coming to a close

4:05

deborah milky was preparing for her future

4:07

with a new job a new apartment

4:10

in a new preschool for her son the

4:12

psychiatrist would later tell a jury

4:15

there was a young woman on the upswing

4:17

of her life

4:19

the folks whose sole custody of resign

4:22

shoes building from scratch the kind of life

4:24

she wanted for the things are looking up

4:26

most definitely

4:28

debbie married her boyfriend mark

4:30

and she was very young she

4:33

tried to get him to be responsible father

4:35

for four years he was the opposite

4:38

of any other boys and deborah it ever had

4:40

that he was good looking

4:42

she was intrigued by is bad boy

4:44

persona that get you girls seattle

4:46

that shouts the that too

4:49

she had successfully worked hard to

4:51

change herself from a party girl

4:53

to a competent young mother and

4:55

every said that when marcus sober it

4:58

was a good has been a good father and a good provider

5:01

this is to promise you have to say statements

5:03

like that when he was sober theory

5:05

you know you're in trouble here yeah

5:08

the he was addicted to drugs and is incapable

5:11

of being there for

5:13

his wife and child and sector

5:15

court who approved a protection order

5:18

after deborah headline a court with concerns

5:20

that mark as a danger to herself and

5:23

isn't

5:24

yeah so soon after deborah had

5:26

made up her mind to leave mark she

5:28

spent her lunch hour searching for an apartment

5:30

close to her new job in

5:33

early november she filled out an application

5:35

at the garden grove apartment complex

5:37

and tempe and she explained on

5:39

the application that the was recently divorced

5:42

and had bad credit with it she

5:44

did have a stable job is she would pay

5:46

her rent on time she religious

5:49

needed someone to give her a chance the

5:51

by thanksgiving she learned that she was

5:54

proved for the apartment and

5:56

she made plans to move in on january

5:58

thirteen deborah didn't tend

6:00

to give mark her new address now

6:02

this was supposed to be a fresh start she

6:05

hadn't even told her friend gyms

6:07

tires who taken her and her son

6:09

christopher in when she had nowhere else to go

6:12

where they were moving to though

6:14

endeavors mother visited her back in

6:16

late september of nineteen eighty nine

6:18

deborah had showed her a box under her bed

6:21

that was filled with new clothes she but for

6:23

herself for christopher

6:25

we're saving these for new life she

6:27

told her mother the thunder the

6:29

bed stash also included a set

6:32

of dishes and pans and

6:34

towel the new life was

6:36

going to be different from their life with mark

6:38

and hopefully different from deborah's

6:40

own childhood deborah did

6:42

like to remember her childhood for the times

6:45

her dad read to her and her sister the

6:47

comforting dinners her mother would make for them

6:50

and they're fun birthday parties but

6:52

she'll the remembered her father as

6:54

strict disciplinarian now

6:57

out of the two girls she was the good daughter

6:59

who never got into trouble that

7:01

good grades in school and always did

7:03

what she was told

7:05

deborah father richard was an air force

7:07

tech sergeant

7:08

and her mother renata was from germany

7:11

renata was smart athletic and beautiful

7:14

she'd actually qualified for the olympics

7:16

in the one hundred meter dash back in nineteen

7:19

sixty because your family couldn't

7:21

afford to send her to rome she

7:23

was unable to compete that she

7:25

excelled in school and learned multiple

7:27

languages the time she was

7:29

twenty were not it was working for the biggest

7:32

bank in berlin and she was still living

7:34

at home with her peers there

7:36

were not his life was going pretty well when

7:38

she went to a birthday party for a friend and

7:41

february third nineteen sixty three

7:43

and met richard siddique carlson

7:46

attention was flattering to renata even

7:48

though her family didn't like him at all he

7:51

courted her giving your good than taking

7:53

her out to nice places the

7:55

introduced her to his friends and they were always

7:57

doing fun and exciting things she

8:00

would say that the first time she slept with him

8:02

she got pregnant they were

8:04

married is one month before deborah

8:06

was born

8:07

when renata was twenty two years old

8:10

and richard was twenty seven

8:12

the deborah was born in a us military

8:15

hospital in west berlin in nineteen

8:17

sixty four later in life

8:19

she would recall that her parents never foot

8:21

in front of her and her sister did

8:24

you hear the arguments coming from the bedroom

8:26

at night the

8:29

father verbally abused their mother and

8:31

insulted her right in front of the kids because

8:34

they're in the military the family moved frequently

8:37

and they ended up living on a phoenix airforce

8:39

base deborah

8:41

was fourteen their parents divorced

8:44

her father moved out the family

8:46

dog the girl stayed with him

8:48

off linda return sixteen

8:51

her dad remarried this time

8:53

to is high school girlfriend and she

8:55

had her own teenagers after he remarried

8:58

the ever felt like your dad wasn't interested

9:00

in her her sister anymore they

9:03

became like a stranger he was an alcoholic

9:05

is very distant in

9:07

his new wife just wasn't very friendly either

9:10

the early in sack would complain if

9:13

the growth talked about the mother in front of her

9:15

deborah was pretty close to their mother

9:18

grenada had been born in germany was

9:20

beautiful and very responsible but

9:22

she was away

9:23

it work much of the time

9:25

reber was proud of her mother strong work ethic

9:27

even though she mr and you want

9:29

to be like her she

9:31

was sixteen she got her first job the

9:34

divorce eventually resulted in the loss

9:36

of their big house so the girls and their mom

9:38

ended up moving into an apartment in phoenix

9:41

grenada eventually decided that deborah

9:44

sister sandy was just too

9:46

much for her to handle she was always

9:48

getting into trouble the she sent

9:50

sandy to live with her father that

9:53

left deborah your mother living alone together

9:56

deborah would actually remember this time very

9:58

suddenly with sister the he

10:01

was an honor student she graduated

10:03

in nineteen eighty two and then she

10:05

enrolled in community college to study

10:07

business management nine

10:09

when deborah was nineteen her mother was

10:11

offered a new job in germany and

10:14

deborah felt really abandoned you're

10:17

not a told deborah that she could move to europe

10:19

with her but deborah didn't want

10:22

to leave her life in the us

10:24

he just wanted her mother to stay in phoenix

10:26

and find another job there

10:29

in early nineteen eighty three we're

10:31

not a move to stood guard she

10:34

left deborah college student in the

10:36

apartment promising to help her out

10:38

with the living expenses while she was in school

10:41

deborah moved into girlfriends in the apartment

10:44

with or to help with rent and to keep her company

10:47

deborah did resent her mother she

10:49

sighs their only real parent and

10:51

for the first i'm she began to rebel

10:54

that's when she began seeing twenty

10:56

one year old mark milky he

10:58

was very rough around the edges and

11:00

he had a drinking problem which would

11:02

only get worse when he added drugs into

11:04

the mix

11:06

though he likes his alcohol he

11:08

liked his drugs he was kind

11:10

of a biker type here are

11:12

, doesn't look good wow

11:14

has

11:15

for her mother warned deborah about him

11:17

that she was in love and they were soon married

11:20

in in the beginning market have a steady job

11:22

as the carpet layer then

11:25

he was in and out of jail from drug related

11:27

charges and dui offenses

11:30

the marriage was almost all bad deborah

11:33

loved their son christopher the

11:35

divorce in nineteen eighty eight and renata

11:38

was very supportive of deborah as a single

11:40

mother then she really adored her grandson

11:43

that's when devil the garden order of protection

11:45

for herself and christopher after

11:48

she found mark in a crack house with their son

11:50

well on a scheduled visit then

11:53

he had physically attacked her to boot though

11:56

he was on a bad road at least at that point

11:59

there is the downward spiral yeah

12:02

though without mark coming between them

12:04

the mother and daughter were close again they

12:06

were even getting along better with sandy

12:08

hook move to wyoming deborah

12:11

put aside their past sisterly differences

12:14

and she thought that of the bad blood was behind

12:16

them then the she never

12:18

would have predicted that one day sandy

12:20

would testify against

12:22

it brought in court

12:24

that's a betrayal i guess nervous family

12:26

stay together does the yeah

12:29

though we never had nowhere to go in july

12:31

of nineteen eighty nine

12:33

the family friend named jim style years

12:35

he for and christopher shelter in his apartment

12:38

those is forty two years old i

12:41

disable vietnam veteran with

12:43

a two year old daughter who lived with him and

12:45

let the impact time with her mother author

12:48

the living together was convenient

12:51

certainly and putting

12:53

to both parties platonic

12:55

deborah would say that he just make

12:58

a pass at her early on that she told

13:00

him no and since then they

13:02

been good friends and he'd never tried anything

13:04

again

13:05

they be allowed to talk about that relationship

13:07

and if she was you yeah i'm and what his thoughts

13:09

were then when deborah got

13:11

a job she paid gym to walk

13:13

christopher for her and little

13:15

christopher adored gym and

13:17

deborah grew to trust

13:18

the completely that you

13:20

know gyms tires had his own mental health

13:22

issues the with on lithium

13:25

and another anti psychotic medication

13:28

later this information would be is to

13:30

portray deborah someone who

13:32

is manipulating in using gems

13:34

there's just for a place to stay

13:36

and to have a baby sitter okay

13:38

fine or know about that well since

13:40

i see was pretty thankful that him

13:43

for taking the man and his this guy kind

13:45

of saved her

13:46

it seems like it and you know

13:48

he seemed like a decent guy yeah he

13:50

had a two year old christopher liked

13:52

him he took good care of the four

13:54

year old from all accounts you

13:58

know people are a little suspicious

13:59

the forty two

14:00

year old man having a twenty something

14:02

year old woman move it

14:04

the area and

14:05

the leading your child in the care of

14:07

an adult man

14:08

that's not a relative can sometimes be

14:11

looked at suspiciously then

14:13

you know you do have to be careful that

14:15

from everything i read about prior to

14:17

any incidents since tires

14:19

did seem reliable kind the make

14:22

a pretty good guy

14:23

it the one deborah got home from

14:25

work on friday night december first

14:28

nineteen eighty nine themselves

14:30

as to borrow her car so he could go to

14:32

them off henderson christmas shopping the

14:35

i just received his government disability

14:37

check what you did on the

14:39

first friday of every month the

14:42

he wanted to take christopher as two

14:44

year old daughter wendy with him then

14:47

he would drop wendy offered her mother's house

14:49

for the night this is a good

14:51

seemed a good idea is deborah like

14:53

getting your laundry done on friday nights that's

14:56

when the apartment machines are more available

14:59

then or the other residents wanted to spend their friday

15:01

nights in the laundry room

15:03

the blame him for that me either

15:05

saturdays and sundays are busy which

15:08

made waiting here turn for the machines

15:11

there's also the easy to get things done a she

15:13

didn't have to take christopher along with her the

15:15

she had to carry desk it's with close up

15:18

and down stairs and over to the next building

15:21

there's nothing unusual about that evenings

15:24

the burrow deborah carr horse and because

15:26

his is broken down and he couldn't afford

15:28

to fix it in return for

15:30

babysitting christopher during the day while

15:32

she worked she'd let him use

15:35

hooker nice arrangement

15:37

it really seem to be deborah

15:40

definitely knew that she was lucky to

15:42

have the car her mother

15:43

the had bought her back in september it

15:45

is reliable late model, toyota so,

15:48

deborah was sitting on the couch, sorting through her

15:50

clothing when she emptied a pocket

15:52

on jim's jeans and found a a sealed box

15:55

of bullets she did know that

15:57

had a gun because it it to her when

15:59

you bought it she wasn't happy about

16:01

it because she didn't want a gun around christopher

16:04

that is living arrangement was temporary

16:07

jim promise to keep the gun in a box

16:09

on a high shelf in his closet out

16:11

of christopher's reach the

16:13

deborah put the bullets in her purse that was nearby

16:16

on the couch so they wouldn't be lying around

16:18

christopher define she put them

16:20

in a zipper person pocket for the time

16:22

being in till she could tell gym

16:24

to put them away there

16:26

are christopher came home that friday night smiling

16:29

and excited he's seen the mall

16:31

santa claus and he reminded

16:33

deborah that she promised said

16:35

he'd get to meet santa this year the

16:38

i mean even by the early present for christopher

16:41

a remote control car that erase

16:43

all over the living room floor as

16:45

usual he but christopher save gummy

16:47

bears for him to deborah

16:49

and gym we're talking about getting a christmas tree

16:52

she'd already told him she was moving out after

16:54

new years she had delayed moving

16:57

until after christmas to give him more

16:59

time to find another roommate plus she

17:01

thought it would be nice for them to spend the holiday

17:03

together deborah

17:06

went to bed that night full of anticipation

17:08

for the new life that lion

17:09

the for her and christopher

17:11

she was planning to by christopher to

17:13

we'll bike for christmas and

17:15

she'd already bought a toy piano and payment

17:18

into fingerhut

17:19

christopher was quickly outgrowing is big

17:21

wheel which he really loved in

17:24

new bike would have training will deborah

17:27

knew he wouldn't need them for long he

17:29

was a very adventurous boy for

17:31

whom training wheels would soon just get nowhere

17:34

good ever was a young mother and

17:36

raising her son alone wasn't always easy

17:39

she would always look back on his birth joy

17:42

as he grew up the marveled at a sensor

17:44

curiosity he kept bugs in his

17:47

pockets because he said they are homeless

17:50

the love to go for walks and see the grass

17:52

the trees and the creatures deborah

17:54

had potty trained him with a cabbage patch doll

17:57

the came with a birth certificate and the

17:59

name

17:59

leon

18:01

the used to and a half in diapers or expensive

18:03

but after deborah showed him that leon could

18:06

use a party christopher began

18:08

used to this lady

18:10

is very proud to be wearing a superhero

18:12

underwear instead of diapers

18:15

the christopher was thrilled and the morning

18:17

of december second nineteen eighty nine

18:19

he was going to see santa claus for the first

18:21

time sit on his lap and tell

18:23

him what he wanted for christmas christopher

18:26

had only been two months old and his first

18:28

christmas so he was still too

18:30

little to know who santa was on a second

18:33

christmas

18:34

encourage third christmas the previous

18:36

year he was in the hospital with

18:39

a thyroid condition

18:40

deborah had sat with him in the hospital and tried

18:42

to make it a nice christmas and

18:44

she promised him that the next year would be

18:46

better he would be for and healthy

18:49

and he'd finally be able to meet santa

18:51

claus though that

18:53

december second christopher woke up at

18:55

five thirty the am in the small bedroom

18:57

he shared with his mom the

18:59

woke deborah got up and he peeked

19:02

in the gym stairs room to see if he was awake

19:04

deborah woke up and she passed him in the hallway

19:07

yeah sure if he could borrow car car to take

19:09

his daughter wendy to the metro center

19:12

mall

19:13

christopher over

19:14

the this and saw his chance to see

19:16

santa claus the epa remembered

19:18

as king james if he minded taking christopher

19:20

along with him and he said he didn't mind

19:23

he was picking up wendy from her mother's house

19:25

in late august c santa together christopher

19:28

excitedly ran into their bedroom and got

19:30

him says stress yeah

19:32

be reminded him to brush his teeth before

19:34

he ran out the door with stairs behind the

19:38

later alligator peeled back to

19:40

his mother said she responded with

19:42

in a while crocodile though

19:45

endeavor have looked back on that morning she

19:47

would regret ever letting him out that door

19:50

it hadn't been a pre planned trip to see santa

19:53

speakers that was something she would have liked

19:55

to have shared with their son christopher

19:57

been so excited and she saw no

19:59

men letting him go with chimp stairs

20:02

after also years has great with christopher

20:05

in his daughter wendy would be with them i'd

20:09

have issues she believes that he left his daughter

20:12

and would take good care of the two young children

20:14

the she really had no worries at that time

20:16

about that

20:17

deborah said that she went about her choice

20:20

at morning the even a christopher

20:22

would return with happy stories about his

20:24

meeting santa the made coffees

20:27

cleaning apartment the book with a friend

20:29

and phone deborah would say that she

20:31

got up about ten o'clock in the morning it's

20:34

diaries and christopher had left an hour

20:36

later the state of arizona

20:39

agreed to this timeline but her friend

20:41

carmen santana

20:43

soon as you talked on the phone is deborah

20:45

at about nine am rights it

20:47

seems like deborah list maybe off

20:49

with their times

20:51

harmon couldn't remember if she had told deborah

20:53

orr of deborah had called her that she

20:55

told investigators that she was sure the

20:57

call it happened by nine am and

21:00

in that call carmen said deborah

21:02

had told her that gym stars and christopher

21:05

had gone to see santa claus he

21:07

didn't know that several other people would also

21:09

tell the police that they had seen him and christopher

21:12

leave long before eleven am the

21:15

permanent deborah agree to talk later that

21:17

day about some possible evening

21:19

plans it was saturday and saturday

21:22

night was the only neither the week that deborah gave

21:24

tours the other nights were devoted

21:26

to caring for her son the tired

21:29

or her neighbor would baby sit christopher

21:31

and

21:31

saturday nights

21:32

she and carmen like to hang out in tempe

21:35

were many of the students from arizona state

21:37

university party on the weekends deborah

21:40

had told carmen that they might be able to hit

21:42

the bars later because she in

21:44

gyms tires had plans to buy a christmas

21:47

tree that night for now and then

21:49

deborah did go out on dates and

21:51

she'd been seeing a young man named ernie for

21:53

awhile but that was over by this time

21:56

the most of the time she went out with your girlfriend

22:00

she spent that saturday morning cleaning up

22:02

the apartment checking the mail and

22:04

then sitting on the front steps talking with

22:06

her next door neighbor karen he'd

22:09

seen karen nearly every day since she

22:11

moved in that july deborah was

22:13

friendly with karen and her husband john

22:16

dude had a headache that morning that landed

22:18

him in the emergency room her

22:20

when john get home from the hospital about

22:22

ten thirty am with orders

22:24

for dem are all and this drill and wrong

22:27

he saw deborah on the steps and said

22:29

hello before he entered his apartment

22:32

though it really does seem that deborah had

22:34

her times next up and whether that

22:36

was just an error or on purpose

22:38

we really don't know karen

22:40

and john had two sons that were five and

22:42

seven years old and they were christopher's

22:45

best buddies karen and

22:47

john both described there is a hardworking

22:49

single mother who loved her son but

22:52

then it to forty five p m deborah's

22:54

phone rang and it was gyms tires

22:56

he told deborah that christopher was missing

22:59

from the metro center mall he

23:01

said that he has used to stall in a public

23:03

bathroom there and when he came out christopher

23:05

was gone the deborah would

23:07

recall screen into her phone jimmy

23:10

is that to find them you've got to find him how

23:12

did this happen and

23:14

i guess she was so loud that neighbors heard

23:16

her scream and came to see what was wrong

23:20

they would say that they found deborah shaking

23:22

and hysterical because all the neighbors

23:24

new deborah

23:25

and christopher

23:27

the once you sat in the front stupid much their

23:29

children play together with her saw

23:32

that she was a very distraught woman here

23:35

and would recall he was being

23:37

hysterical she was going what if something

23:39

happened to him what if this happened what if that

23:41

happened even though we were all

23:43

telling her no no nothing happened

23:45

you know he just wandered off

23:47

the little kid something caught his eye

23:49

and he just walked off

23:51

that she was nervous like any parent

23:53

would be jebra would recall

23:55

that the first thing she did after getting the

23:57

call from jim was to call her dad

24:00

she was sobbing and richard told her to

24:02

take deep breaths and calm down richard

24:04

remembered that phone call he said

24:06

her first words were inaudible he

24:09

couldn't understand her because she was crying

24:11

and was emotional though he remembered

24:13

raising his voice to get her to calm down

24:15

and at work then he told

24:17

her to com mall security and give them

24:20

a description of christopher when

24:22

deborah asked her dad if she should call the police

24:25

he told her no this is a missing

24:27

child and the happens all the to he

24:29

told her to call him back if she didn't hear

24:32

anything in the next half an hour there's

24:35

a mistake right there the not

24:37

have the police right away

24:39

why did is helena to call

24:41

i guess he just that the kid wandered off

24:43

and they'd find him and it wouldn't be a big deal

24:46

good it seemed natural

24:48

response to get the police involved yep

24:50

i agree exactly a

24:53

half an hour deborah called her father back

24:55

she told him the gym had gotten help in the

24:57

mall to look for christopher but

24:59

she didn't think that was enough so he told

25:01

her go ahead and called the police she

25:04

did and then she waited by the phone praying

25:06

that christopher would color later

25:08

she would be criticized for not going to

25:11

the mall to search for her son

25:13

that remember she didn't have a car

25:15

in also she wanted to be there is he called

25:18

because she had taught christopher the home

25:20

number he made a point of doing

25:22

that

25:23

and doesn't seem like a big issue

25:25

to me

25:26

well you have to think that people are going to start

25:29

looking at her and picking through what she did

25:31

and criticizing

25:31

absolutely and that's going to be used

25:34

against her here

25:36

you've got a ton of people hurt them are

25:38

looking for and like she said i

25:40

live chance that he may call for

25:42

the new the number to be good to be there

25:44

exactly and i think lots of times they do

25:47

tell the parents or at least one of the parents

25:49

to stay by the phone

25:50

yeah

25:51

who in a police officers arrived they

25:53

as deborah a lotta questions and

25:55

she answered them they wanted a picture

25:57

of christopher i've ever had

25:59

photo albums full of

26:02

faber photo is when she had blown

26:04

up and sent to her grandparents in berlin

26:07

christopher's first birthday he's

26:10

wearing a baby beloved sit with a baseball

26:12

bat embroidered on shirt i

26:14

absolutely loved his picture she told everyone

26:17

that's not the pictures she gave him knows it

26:20

he'd made a copy for the grandparents and

26:22

she had one in the books as and she had more

26:24

recent ones as

26:25

we also you're getting yes this is

26:27

the first birthday teacher

26:28

the i think it says she's going through looking for

26:30

a recent photo and her son's missing

26:33

she's emotional those pictures are going

26:35

to me no real lot to you at that moment for

26:37

her yeah

26:38

then she just said that the know

26:40

the deborah was as if just tires was

26:42

a boyfriend she said no

26:45

and she explains her temporary living

26:47

arrangements neighbors said that they knew

26:49

there was nothing romantic going on between

26:51

deborah in gym jim's older sister

26:53

linda said the same thing this

26:56

is my brother call everybody honey or darling

26:58

but there was just his way the

27:00

and derby cared about each other a lot better

27:03

was in a sexual thing the loved it

27:06

the not like that deborah

27:08

dad agreed with that assessment also then

27:11

who is as deborah if there is a gun in the house

27:14

and she showed them the one in the box of the top

27:16

of chins closet she didn't

27:18

remember the bullets you sound the night before

27:20

that she put in your purse

27:22

that's another thing that will be held against

27:24

or why did you of bullets

27:26

per year

27:27

the move but i

27:29

can certainly see forgetting something like that

27:31

in a moment where you're panicked about your

27:33

child sure the she

27:35

was asked about gm the man who had taken her

27:37

send to the mall and she and the neighbors

27:40

all vouched for him

27:41

the baby sat christopher while deborah work

27:44

he it also babysat other kids in the apartment

27:46

complex then was raising his

27:49

own two year old daughter in course

27:51

he was a regular churchgoer though

27:53

they all saw him as a man who could be trusted

27:56

we've had to question whether gym might have

27:58

something to do with chris

27:59

the bridge disappearance

28:01

garber said she couldn't believe that neither

28:04

could any of the neighbors who knew him her

28:06

neighbors were after is she cried all

28:08

that afternoon and all night

28:10

her friend carmen port her rum and coke

28:13

to try and calm her down

28:15

and it nightfall she gave deborah sleeping

28:17

pill nothing worked

28:19

deborah get worse she couldn't sleep when

28:22

the phone rang she left for it hoping

28:24

it was christopher

28:26

she couldn't eat sleep there

28:28

is no good news coming for her the

28:31

phone call it should rush to pick up told

28:33

her the christopher had not been sounds the

28:35

same said news came in throughout the night

28:38

midnight two men from the apartment complex

28:41

to have to metro center to help in

28:43

a search for christopher and they get back

28:45

at four am christopher still

28:47

missing there was miserable everyone

28:50

told her to stay at the house and wait for the

28:52

phone not knowing that this would

28:54

later be used against her

28:56

the gym tires had volunteered to help

28:58

with the search and he did show some concern

29:00

for

29:00

christopher

29:02

one of the policemen at the

29:04

mall asked him what stall he

29:06

had used in when he showed him the saw it

29:08

had no toilet seat

29:09

so they were kind of suspicious right then

29:11

about his whole story of going to the bathroom

29:14

and then christopher being missing

29:16

and that night just after midnight

29:18

stars mentioned his all the high school fred

29:20

rogers scott who lived with his elderly

29:23

mother

29:23

the know what context to see mentioning him

29:26

and

29:26

that he had seen him that day

29:28

okay

29:29

because he was there and will get into what happened

29:32

the police contacted rodgers guy

29:34

who made inconsistent statements

29:37

so he in stairs were taken to the phoenix police

29:39

department for further questioning definitely

29:42

there suspects at this point it

29:45

wasn't until eleven thirty am the next

29:47

day sunday december third when

29:49

someone mentioned than a man named

29:51

rodgers scott was being questioned then

29:54

when deborah heard this she didn't

29:56

understand what was going on she

29:58

said it's tires news

29:59

he didn't

30:01

to be creepy in should even

30:03

told sayers that she didn't good reason

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we restrictions apply

31:00

one

31:01

did you did it seems island he

31:03

would because less same planning means more

31:05

time for us

31:07

to take to take day family big

31:09

you

31:10

protective barrier to send the giggles

31:12

together and of course the beauty

31:15

the funnel cake the same

31:16

the hate

31:17

here at kings island doing something

31:19

just for the fun of it is all the reason you

31:21

need right now

31:23

everyone keeps trying kings

31:25

island crickets just thirty five dollars

31:27

on mine

31:37

around one o'clock in the afternoon

31:40

that day skirts interrogation

31:42

was taken over by veterans police detective

31:45

amanda so dirty according

31:47

to satellite is report of this interrogation

31:50

got his mid that he knew were christopher's body

31:52

was and scott even volunteer to

31:54

lead the police to the location the

31:57

same time he claimed that it was gym stier

31:59

suicide

31:59

the boy

32:00

maybe a half hour more later

32:02

scott certainly claimed the to

32:05

homicide it happened because the boy's mother

32:07

wanted a turn christopher's body

32:10

the three times in his head not

32:13

exactly were scott said it would who

32:15

lived within twenty four hours save

32:17

recover the body

32:19

yeah

32:21

the deborah stepmother maureen and

32:23

her step sister karen came

32:26

to scenic said saturday night to be with

32:28

her they would say they found deborah

32:30

so distress that marine gave her

32:32

a value the help her calm down but

32:34

still gabardine sleep then

32:36

at about noon on sunday marines suggested

32:39

that deborah go to the town of florence

32:41

where her father and paternal grandmother were

32:44

in phoenix police officers at the scene

32:46

agreed that this is a good idea the

32:49

they arrived at her father's house and your eighty

32:51

year old grandmother held deborah's she wept

32:54

her father hugged her and tried to get to

32:56

eat something her grandmother

32:58

made her a sandwich and deborah

33:00

managed to get down about half of it dad

33:03

gave her a beer and he would recall

33:05

that she drank about half of that they

33:07

sat around the dining room table separate

33:09

just kept asking about jim stairs

33:12

she wanted to know what was going on

33:14

so deborah was sucked into her grandmother's

33:16

bad and finally did fall asleep it

33:19

about six pm her stepsister

33:21

karen shook her awake and told

33:23

her that the police were at the front door at

33:26

the front door and officer told her she had

33:28

to go to the county jail to tap to

33:30

some phoenix police officers she

33:32

asked the sheriff if they knew anything about

33:34

christopher yet and he said no though

33:37

a family friend janet for ob

33:39

drove her to the jail

33:41

meanwhile detective so that it

33:43

had decided to arrest deborah before

33:46

she even arrived at the jail in

33:49

his own december fifth police report

33:51

written three days after this interrogation

33:54

so that era at approximately

33:57

nineteen sixty three hours it's

33:59

almost a am i explained

34:01

to deborah that her son could have said

34:03

been found in a desert area the

34:05

human shot to death

34:07

deborah immediately begin to yeah what

34:09

what

34:11

he then started to scream and make noises

34:13

is issue is crying no

34:15

tears were visible

34:17

that's never good when you don't have the

34:19

here are you gonna producers tears

34:22

the aca will fall otherwise you're going

34:24

to be accused of faking it absolutely

34:26

i explained to her that i would not

34:28

tolerate her cry then by

34:31

the way you're also under arrest for

34:33

your son's death so that's extremely

34:35

harsh as smoothly as

34:38

putting that isn't it

34:39

that kind of awful i

34:41

mean even if we're really sure she's guilty

34:43

maybe that's not the way to handle it

34:46

the

34:47

when she arrived at the jail deborah was

34:49

put into a room would she would

34:51

describe as a medical exam room with

34:53

janet then it was

34:55

as to leave the room before detective so

34:57

that he spoke to deborah and

35:00

devereux would remember screaming have

35:02

to sell that he spoke to her

35:04

you screaming for she couldn't believe what

35:06

are you saying to she became

35:08

fairly hysterical

35:11

for deborah her son's murder was

35:13

i the first tragedy jewish face after

35:15

spending over thirty hours crying

35:17

and waiting for any word of of her son he

35:20

was to be interviewed by detector armando

35:22

saw that detective

35:25

has a history of lying under oath

35:27

in coercing concessions that

35:30

wasn't known at the time

35:31

was she didn't know that the some people

35:33

did know it through probably should have

35:35

it on it but will definitely get into

35:37

that

35:38

reading to deborah so that he said

35:41

we found your son he was murdered

35:43

and you're under arrest

35:45

though she they're thinking her son

35:47

is missing and she's going to help signed

35:49

him

35:50

if she is innocent right wrote

35:52

and she's finding out that he was murdered

35:54

and that she's under arrest

35:57

right then and there right there

35:59

the deborah

35:59

later hand wrote this account of what happened

36:03

the sheer out at approximately

36:05

eight pm a man dressed in civilian

36:07

clothes entered the room alone introduced

36:10

himself as detective cell dirty

36:13

which of us with deborah and then

36:15

ask janet to step out of the room

36:17

as janet left the room cel dot a

36:19

close the door he sat down

36:22

in the chair that sat in front of the death

36:24

immediately asked him if he had heard anything

36:26

about chris but he ignored me

36:29

he had a notepad and pen

36:31

the wrote and things down on paper and

36:33

looked at his watch

36:35

then he looked up at me and said in one boy

36:38

we found your son he was murdered and

36:40

you are under arrest the deborah

36:42

said she instantly screamed began

36:45

crying and yelled out and

36:47

as she was crying uncontrollably so

36:49

that he said i'm not going

36:51

to tolerate ukraine

36:52

yeah man

36:54

there she moaned in asked why are you doing

36:57

this she says she was

36:59

in shock because of the horror that her son

37:01

was dead and disbelief

37:03

that she was being accused as accused participant

37:07

the attractive fall decay wasn't the only

37:09

one who knew that he had walked into that room

37:11

to arrest deborah to police

37:13

reports which show that before he came

37:16

out of his twenty five minute interview with deborah

37:18

police officers told at least four people

37:21

deborah was being a ref

37:22

it for christopher's murder though

37:25

they could only have known that if they've been

37:27

told this before so that even

37:29

entered the interrogation room

37:33

though he was not there to talk to her

37:35

he was there to accuse her in arrest

37:38

her

37:39

that's right

37:40

though so that he claimed it deborah had

37:42

confessed to planning christopher's murder

37:44

the know twenty five minute time period when

37:46

she's alone with him this

37:49

version of what we said portrayed deborah

37:51

is a murderer who admitted to her go

37:53

with no signs of remorse the

37:56

queen as you do and him reasons for wanting

37:58

her child dead

38:00

that her vision of well as said perjury

38:04

the her version of what was said

38:06

we're too so that is a bully that

38:08

assaulted her mentally and emotionally and

38:11

distorted her words

38:14

no one can even know for sure what

38:16

was said

38:17

because he really wasn't recorded this

38:21

is even so soft that they had been told

38:23

by his supervisor to record the interrogation

38:27

the how do you even

38:29

what was

38:30

there was no said

38:32

you know have recorded

38:34

that's a good question it was just

38:36

his word against her yeah yeah

38:39

i would think if you'd been told

38:42

she record this conversation

38:45

the better damn well do

38:47

you would think so but he didn't even take a tape

38:49

recorder with him and he would later say

38:52

that he didn't own war

38:54

and he would say understand at deborah's

38:56

trial said it was his habit

38:58

and custom know the use the tape recorder

39:02

it wasn't legally required even

39:04

though his supervisor had told him to do

39:06

it another i'd

39:08

thing about this was the prosecution

39:11

would make a point during the

39:12

trial that when detective cel dot

39:14

he began the interview he asked

39:16

deborah

39:17

can i record this interview and

39:19

he would say that deborah answered no

39:21

i want a lawyer

39:23

though then you stop and you get to

39:25

where

39:25

right that's another problem though

39:28

that is police report added

39:30

it should be noted that this interview was

39:32

not tape recorded because deborah refused

39:35

have her statement recorded

39:37

the prosecutors would then make this incredible

39:40

assertion the deborah's response

39:42

of no was the reason that her

39:44

concession wasn't court it as

39:47

if there's been a tape recorder in the room as

39:50

if the detective doing the interview would have

39:52

used to recorder if not for her wishes

39:54

not to be recorded this

39:57

really makes no sense because in arizona

39:59

it's legal

39:59

for one person to record another without

40:02

their knowledge or consent the

40:04

asking for her permission

40:06

wasn't even a real thing know

40:08

what there was not even record

40:10

there plus she asked for a lawyer

40:12

and even admitted that

40:15

though deborah said it actually happened like

40:17

this so that he asked

40:19

her if she wanted their inner to be recorded

40:22

she saw the phone in the room and said no she

40:24

wanted to use that phone she

40:26

wanted to call her dad about getting a lawyer

40:29

she told so that a that she wanted a

40:31

lawyer and then he put his hands on

40:33

her knees and he said that he wasn't there

40:35

to tolerate her behavior he

40:38

was very condescending and he nord

40:41

her request for an attorney the

40:43

tape recorder wasn't even the only way to prove

40:46

what deborah had said in that room the

40:48

interrogation could have been witnessed by

40:50

another line for mint officer in

40:53

fact to phoenix homicide detectives

40:55

were waiting outside the door they

40:57

were prepared to do the interview themselves

41:00

until they were told to wait

41:02

let so that they do it

41:04

neither officer was ever asked

41:06

to sit in on that interview the

41:08

why would he do it alone when he has to other

41:11

detectives there who could have witnessed it

41:13

why indeed also the concession

41:15

could have been taped up and signed by deborah there

41:18

was never signed confession the

41:20

only thing saying that there was a concession that

41:22

night the paraphrase report

41:24

by society claiming he was

41:27

reporting with deborah his said to him deborah

41:29

has always maintained the she confessed

41:32

to nothing then she's guilty of nothing

41:35

so that reclaim that deborah had been suicidal

41:39

that she decided to have resigned killed

41:41

instead because she didn't want

41:43

him to be raised by his father mark

41:45

milky the that

41:48

he said she told me that she got the idea

41:50

about a month ago about killing child

41:53

she said at first she thought about

41:55

suicide then decided

41:57

not to because the childhood and to release

41:59

to her

41:59

husband

42:01

the closer

42:02

he said as she wanted to show killed because

42:04

houstonian acts like your husband she

42:06

says she loved the child she wanted him to go with

42:09

god and not have to live in the house

42:11

that her husband did the indicated

42:13

that she turned to gyms tires her roommate

42:16

and the he agreed to kill her

42:18

son so did he later

42:21

got in touch with righteous guy his

42:23

friend and if they are discussed

42:25

or three of them discuss doing this deborah

42:28

indicated his shoes never angry

42:30

they had not died she was disappointed

42:33

on several occasions that they did take

42:35

him out and hadn't died but

42:37

she wasn't angry so that it added

42:39

the deborah new stitches men are going

42:41

to kill christopher that morning and and go to series

42:44

the metro center more and claim

42:46

the christopher he disappeared

42:48

the dumper remembered that cel dot tape

42:50

repeated to her that he wouldn't tolerate

42:53

her crying and then he took

42:55

a card out of his pocket and read heard

42:57

the miranda warning draper

43:00

said she could hear him talking but she really

43:02

didn't understand what he was saying their

43:04

emotions consumed her which is understandable

43:08

then she told him that she didn't understand

43:10

her rights at all she didn't understand

43:12

why he was reading them to her but

43:14

she would recall him willing

43:16

cheer up to her

43:17

so that her back was up against the wall of

43:19

the room

43:21

the a just learn that her son was dead

43:23

and she felt very intimidated and

43:25

confused he remembered

43:28

another important thing about her interrogation

43:31

the dot he told her i don't

43:33

want you to say a word it all when we leave

43:35

this room

43:37

she said by then she was in such shock

43:39

that she was numb

43:41

he remembered walking out and seeing a lot

43:43

of people in the lobby he

43:45

was work to the police car outside the

43:49

dot a put her in the back seat and

43:51

got and beside her before

43:53

the driver got in the car

43:55

dot a reminded her to say nothing

43:58

she still didn't realize what was happening now

44:00

in here confuse state she believed

44:02

that she was arrested for being a bad mother

44:05

and letting christopher go with jim stairs

44:08

they drove to phoenix she thought

44:10

so that he was taking her home to her apartment

44:13

they arrived at the police station

44:16

and then reporters photographed her and

44:18

she walked into the building

44:20

though it sounds like she was just so upset

44:22

which is understandable

44:24

she's feeling guilt for letting her son go

44:27

at all then he's trying to turn

44:29

that guilt into guilt for actually being

44:31

part of the murder

44:33

he certainly is the

44:36

scribes tires endeavor were

44:38

all arrested for the murder of christopher milky

44:42

bruce trial began on september tenth fancy

44:44

ninety the pretrial

44:46

reporting in the news very

44:48

critical of her deborah

44:51

had a public defender the

44:53

turned out to be completely ineffective

44:55

against the county prosecutor know

44:57

leave deborah sister sandy

45:00

testify for the prosecution can

45:02

you believe that oh yeah my my

45:04

sister yep she told the jury

45:06

that deborah had been negligent mother the

45:09

energy would likely killed his son so she could

45:11

get back together with an ex boyfriend

45:13

named ernest according to sandy

45:15

early did not want to have any children

45:18

christopher was unaware that relationship

45:21

the news also very negative about

45:23

her sister in general color are manipulative

45:26

person in addition to his sister

45:29

mark milky the ex husband and

45:31

never saw the richard also

45:33

turned against her said they were not surprise

45:35

issues behind the murder so your

45:37

sister in your father

45:39

the amazing isn't it yeah

45:41

detective so that he became the star

45:44

witness against deborah's you can imagine

45:46

with the only real evidence being the unrecorded

45:49

and on witness concession though

45:52

dot a red from his report the deborah

45:54

had told him that after christopher's

45:56

birth

45:57

she realized she was not going to be a good

45:59

mother

45:59

look at the alternative of having

46:02

christopher stay with his father was not any

46:04

better she finally got divorced

46:06

from mark and then mark did end

46:08

up with some visitation rights for

46:11

the most part mark was always in jail

46:14

and he couldn't even take advantage of those rates

46:17

mark had been having christopher for visitation

46:19

and she noticed that christopher was acting

46:22

just like her ex husband the

46:24

she described to him according to

46:26

sell dot day det christopher

46:28

was very mischievous an

46:30

that this really bothered her because she didn't want

46:32

her child to grow up and be like mark spending

46:35

his life in and out of jail they'll

46:38

dot a suit

46:39

deborah then told me that she said very

46:41

bad about this and he

46:43

had a nearly empty seizing

46:46

then she said i'm not a malicious

46:48

person i just wanted god

46:50

to take care of him he added

46:52

that deborah then told him that she was scared

46:55

about what was going to happen

46:57

deborah would we can't the same scene

46:59

very differently she

47:01

would say that she became upset when so

47:03

that he accused her of line

47:05

that she couldn't stop com

47:07

he said the emotional turmoil was

47:09

difficult to bear that her brain

47:12

couldn't process the sudden shock of

47:14

the devastating news of christopher's

47:16

murder

47:17

then of her around

47:19

so that a police report continued

47:22

i then a stepper if she had killed her son

47:25

because of some insurance that she may

47:27

have had on him and she told me she

47:29

did know she then said she didn't

47:31

have any life insurance on him

47:33

i believe that maybe her father did she

47:36

also said she believes that her father was

47:38

the beneficiary of that policy how

47:41

that he said he told deborah that

47:43

it had been his understanding that gym

47:45

and roger were to receive a partial payment

47:48

the five thousand dollar policy which

47:50

she had other child's life know

47:53

deborah had denied having a policy

47:55

that she may have told him about her father's

47:57

policy

47:59

she said it may have been

48:01

tires and roger scots motivation

48:04

for the killing but it definitely

48:06

wasn't hers the

48:08

deborah knowledge that she had told so

48:10

that you that she didn't have a life insurance policy

48:13

and christopher the

48:15

trial prosecutor know levy

48:17

told the jury deborah was lying about

48:19

life insurance policy that

48:21

she had taken out of five thousand dollar

48:24

life insurance policy on her son

48:26

and pointed out that this was the official

48:28

motivation

48:29

deborah to have her son killed

48:32

this is very disturbing image they're

48:34

sending the jury movement the

48:37

mother so heartless that she went out and bought

48:39

a five thousand dollar life insurance policy

48:41

on her own child with the intent

48:44

of having him killed and collecting the money

48:46

and the jury accepted this is deborah motive

48:49

that actually deborah never took out the side

48:51

thousand dollar life insurance policy and

48:54

christopher

48:55

there was part of her benefit package as

48:57

the insurance agency where she worked

49:01

the ever recall that it was explained to her

49:03

as a side thousand dollar burial policy

49:06

this is actually the same benefit package

49:09

offered the every full time employee

49:11

that company this

49:13

insurance policy did not pay off

49:16

in the event of any criminal behavior

49:19

though is deborah had had christopher

49:21

murdered

49:22

this policy would not be payable to anyone

49:26

one problem in or trial was that both

49:28

deborah and her defense attorney thought

49:30

the life insurance motivation would

49:33

be so easily dismissed that

49:35

they didn't take it seriously as a provable

49:37

motive in fact everyone

49:39

seemed to accept that motors very readily

49:42

in fact the murder pdf website

49:45

lifted her crime as parasite

49:47

to collect insurance money

49:49

i'm not impressed with her attorney

49:52

now and a lot of people have

49:54

talked about that and looking back maybe

49:57

he wasn't he wasn't guy but just not qualified

49:59

especially for a death penalty case

50:02

which this was

50:03

yeah i mean if she said

50:05

she asked for an attorney when

50:08

she was interrogated by so that it

50:11

the mood to continue question or something

50:13

you bring up a trial

50:15

well at least have it not admissible

50:17

the trial right the whole convention

50:20

to admit it or yes

50:22

they did

50:23

this whole thing about the five thousand dollar

50:25

life insurance policy which he really wasn't

50:28

should have been refuted client

50:30

they definitely should have been addressed by the defense

50:33

this worker capital case meaning

50:35

a case where the prosecution was going to

50:38

ask for the death penalty

50:39

what was revealing about the prosecutors statement

50:42

to the grand jury was that he misrepresented

50:45

that five thousand dollar burial policy

50:47

that was part of deborah's employee package

50:49

at work as something that she went

50:51

out and thought he also

50:54

attributed emotive of financial gain

50:56

to only the two men skeletons

50:59

tires

51:00

the prosecutor would later changed this story

51:03

and insists that deborah had her

51:05

son killed to collect the insurance money

51:07

in or trial

51:08

that was an even kept straight

51:11

the movie

51:12

the in october nineteen ninety deborah

51:15

milky was found guilty to

51:17

one day of deliberation by the jury a

51:20

private investigator interviewed one of the

51:22

jurors who told amid the

51:24

jury had been split fifty fifty

51:27

to they requested to listen to the new and

51:29

body the t this

51:32

video tape was a conversations between

51:34

detective so dirty and

51:36

deborah sister sandy and

51:39

it had not been played during the trial because

51:43

some information from the tape have been

51:45

brought up and sand his testimony the

51:47

tape was an evidence oh

51:50

interstate sandy spoke at length about

51:52

deborah being a master of manipulation

51:55

they try to point of christopher often

51:57

so she could go out and party according

51:59

the ones you're

52:01

listening to their tape it convinced the remaining

52:03

fifty percent to convict

52:06

the an investigator was pretty stunned

52:08

by that because he thought it must have been the concession

52:12

it it seemed like the negative

52:14

thing said by her family members

52:16

and the people that turned on her really

52:18

worked against or maybe even more than the

52:20

false

52:21

kinda carry more weight

52:23

yeah

52:24

she did testify add she

52:27

didn't cry on the sand and

52:29

she was described by the media is cold

52:32

the deborah was sentenced to death in january

52:35

of nineteen ninety one

52:36

jim tires and rodgers skirt

52:39

convicted and both men were sentenced

52:41

to death as well

52:43

during her post conviction proceedings

52:45

deborah milky and or council sound

52:47

evidence that had been suppressed at the

52:49

time of her trial in

52:51

particular they learn the detective cel

52:54

dot a had a long documented history

52:56

of violating suspects constitutional

52:59

right fabricating evidence

53:02

the perjuring himself in order to secure

53:04

convictions it also

53:06

engaged in sexual misconduct with

53:08

women

53:09

juliet under control

53:11

in fact so that he had been repeatedly

53:14

sound by arizona courts to have light

53:16

on the stand about witness statements

53:19

and about concessions what

53:21

the phoenix pd and the maricopa

53:24

county attorney's office were

53:26

aware of his history of misconduct neither

53:29

did anything to investigate or discipline

53:32

cel dot tick there were no

53:34

efforts to share knowledge of his history

53:36

to any of these defense attorneys in

53:38

the cases that so dirty investigated

53:41

either

53:41

and this included capital cases

53:43

like deborah's

53:45

then it came to waited the phoenix police

53:47

department can you to promote

53:50

in supports or that of the even continued

53:52

to bring him into handle some of the most important

53:54

cases which included deborah milk

53:56

is case county attorney's office

53:59

continued to do and and so that

54:01

his testimony and to make

54:03

him the star their cases the

54:06

prosecutor know levy when

54:08

repeated accolades for convictions that

54:10

he got these time so

54:12

that is where

54:14

so they have a motive

54:15

the reducing keep him there that's

54:17

really rotten there was no

54:19

adequate internal investigation of the

54:21

allegations against cel dot e bay

54:24

either his supervisors as the phoenix

54:26

pd or even by the phoenix

54:28

police department internal affairs division

54:31

classy was never disciplined for any

54:33

of it so that he had this

54:36

documented history of engaging in sexual

54:38

misconduct on the job

54:40

harassing young women and line

54:42

superiors

54:44

and this way back as far as nineteen seventy

54:46

three

54:47

when fogarty then a patrol

54:49

officer attempted to extort

54:52

and coerce sexual favors from

54:54

a female motorist whom so

54:56

that they had stopped for having a faulty tell

54:58

a though after pulling over

55:00

the woman and learning that she had an outstanding

55:03

work

55:04

instead of a resting her so

55:06

dirty suggested they moved to a less

55:08

conspicuous spot

55:10

then he followed her somewhere in his cruiser

55:13

once where he sexually assaulted her

55:16

the put him off she offered to meet him

55:18

somewhere later to have sex with him though

55:21

he agreed to that and cell data showed

55:23

up for that rendezvous

55:25

the woman didn't show

55:27

instead she reported his misconduct

55:29

to the police when

55:31

this misconduct came to the phoenix police

55:34

departments attention officials

55:36

did open an investigation when

55:38

he was questioned by investigators

55:41

so that he lied about the incident the

55:43

until he failed a polygraph test

55:46

the disciplinary report that resulted

55:49

fine by the police chief and city manager

55:52

how dot he was told that because of this

55:54

incident your image of honesty

55:57

competent see and overall reliable

55:59

that he must be questioned

56:02

that is personnel

56:03

they contain the internal investing

56:05

the report showing these conclusions

56:08

and that if this time so that he

56:10

was suspended for five days big

56:13

deal

56:13

the deal

56:14

the week off really

56:16

the new so that it conducted a

56:18

similar sexual misconduct in two thousand

56:21

and nine this is where deborah's

56:23

habeas claims were being litigated in

56:25

two thousand nine the dirty

56:28

extorted a woman for sex in exchange

56:30

for letting her avoid an eviction this

56:33

woman reported the incident to so that

56:35

his supervisor the advise

56:37

you to contact the phoenix pd which

56:40

she did police department report

56:42

stated that so that any committed

56:44

bribery and says by extortion then

56:46

he suggested it the women have sexual

56:49

intercourse with him to keep him from

56:51

lacking her out of her apartment after she

56:53

was evicted

56:54

though you have these claims and you have to wonder

56:57

how many of these incidents occurred where the woman

57:00

did not report it there

57:02

had to be several you would

57:04

think he would think so

57:06

you've gotten away with it repeatedly

57:09

yeah over years and years

57:12

the no evidence is so that is proven

57:14

pattern of serious misconduct ever

57:17

disclosed to deborah or her attorney

57:19

before the trial instead

57:22

the vast majority of evidence was uncovered

57:24

with thousands of hours of meticulous

57:26

research by her posts condition

57:29

legal team was examining

57:31

public records the

57:34

kind of phoenix pd why

57:36

are we resorted to produce or that is personnel

57:38

file

57:39

years after deborah's conviction

57:41

they said almost all that file

57:44

had been destroyed the

57:46

kidding me

57:47

now isn't an outrageous the

57:50

mean interest incidentally it's been destroyed

57:52

it meant the fuck that's just ridiculous

57:55

we saw dot his record finally came

57:57

before the us court of appeals for

57:59

the circle

58:01

the panel issued a unanimous decision

58:03

chastising so that he for

58:05

his agree just misconduct as

58:08

well as the phoenix pd and

58:10

the maricopa county attorney's office

58:13

for their roles and covering up crucial

58:15

evidence of his history

58:17

the outrageous really crazy

58:19

i really don't think any conviction

58:22

with him testifying would

58:24

be valid

58:25

right we'll see what happens

58:27

to deborah yeah

58:28

that i think deborah one of the more fortunate ones

58:31

even though she lived through many years

58:33

of hell

58:34

well it took a while a

58:36

long while of her appeals were denied

58:38

yes quite some time so

58:41

i'm just not sure how you can do that

58:44

get this is detective who lies

58:46

is this sordid history the

58:48

testimony should be allowed

58:50

yeah we're we're going to see that there were many judges

58:53

over the years who said that it just didn't

58:55

matter didn't affect the outcome of her

58:57

case

58:58

which seems crazy me don't know how

59:00

you can say that i know

59:02

i know well let's just look back

59:04

a little bit here because only

59:06

look at the details of deborah's case

59:08

it seems that gyms tires

59:11

rogue to rogers it's and the day of

59:13

christopher's murder in order to

59:15

give him a gun that he had bought for

59:18

him for twenty five dollars both

59:21

of the men had gone target shooting beforehand

59:24

the answer is had planned to pick up his daughter

59:26

wendy but then wendy's mother

59:29

had told him to wait until after new

59:31

the tires and scott had some time to

59:33

kill then they decided to go out

59:35

to the desert north sea next and

59:37

do some

59:38

target shooting

59:39

his own trial gym sires gave

59:41

the most credible since rio i

59:43

believe for what happened that day

59:46

according to his testimony

59:48

the sky and christopher walked

59:50

back towards the car with styris in

59:52

front

59:53

then christopher and then scott behind

59:55

them

59:56

there says that the three quick shots

59:59

in turn this

59:59

the little christopher

1:00:01

lying dead in the sand

1:00:03

according to stier scarcity pointed

1:00:06

the gun at him and said something

1:00:08

about two hundred and fifty dollars which

1:00:10

he needed to hire an attorney for

1:00:12

his social security benefits styris

1:00:15

was able to calm down scott and he drove

1:00:17

back to the city leaving christopher's

1:00:20

body in the desert pedro

1:00:23

of scott tossed the shells out of the car

1:00:25

window and police would never

1:00:27

recover all of the shelves the

1:00:29

two men then stopped at a walgreens were scott

1:00:32

picked up a prescription then they went

1:00:34

to a pizza place where there was a children's

1:00:36

birthday party being held over

1:00:39

a pizza and drinks they decided that

1:00:41

stayers would drop off scott had

1:00:43

an us go drugs close to his apartment

1:00:46

then gm drove to the metro center mall

1:00:48

by himself once

1:00:50

where he pretended to have lost christopher

1:00:53

while he had left him alone for a moment

1:00:55

to use the bathroom then about

1:00:57

an hour later scott arrived at the mall

1:01:00

by bus because

1:01:02

his role was to tell the police that he had

1:01:04

seen christopher hitchens tires together

1:01:06

at the mall the week

1:01:08

later found the murder weapon in the apartment

1:01:10

that scotch shared with his elderly mother

1:01:13

and it appears that there was no deeper motives

1:01:15

and roger scott

1:01:16

being with stars and christopher and

1:01:19

scott with mentally unstable

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apparently sat never liked the child

1:03:10

because he was hyperactive scott

1:03:13

also had a history of shooting at random

1:03:15

people in alleys

1:03:16

what sell any red

1:03:18

flags no kidding

1:03:21

an interview with a fellow inmate of scott

1:03:23

would say that skirt confess to him

1:03:25

that he killed the child completely

1:03:27

on his own could

1:03:29

even turn down an offer to the deal

1:03:31

if he would testify that deborah was

1:03:33

the mastermind of appear to have her child

1:03:36

killed

1:03:37

even though this agreement would have saved

1:03:39

him from a death sentence

1:03:41

we don't know why style years covered

1:03:43

for roger scott

1:03:45

the or hurt her weird thing

1:03:47

the weird thing is definitely wrong

1:03:49

in any way you look at it yeah

1:03:52

who after the arrest gym endeavor

1:03:54

exchange over forty letters prosecutors

1:03:57

and some people in the media characterized

1:04:00

these is love letters between coconspirators

1:04:03

some said they showed deborah as a cold

1:04:05

heartless woman more concerned about

1:04:07

herself than what had happened to his son the

1:04:09

answer these letters were evidence of guilt

1:04:12

that a completely different reality comes

1:04:14

to light when the letters are already those

1:04:18

are filled with confusion greece

1:04:20

anger and depression there

1:04:22

is repeated regret and misery about

1:04:24

christopher's death and what is less meant to his

1:04:27

mother there are questions

1:04:29

about how the horrible events of december

1:04:31

second it happened in

1:04:33

her letters it was clear that deborah was

1:04:36

unaware the chimney broke again

1:04:38

sir roger who's

1:04:40

letters gym captivating your questions

1:04:42

because he knew she'd be upset with him for

1:04:45

having a gun in the car along

1:04:47

with her son and rodgers got

1:04:49

a very unstable man

1:04:51

rodgers scott didn't write one single letter

1:04:54

either gym or deborah the people who

1:04:56

are supposedly his coconspirators

1:04:59

that's got called the police several different stories

1:05:02

and all of them named jim style there's

1:05:04

the shooter in one version

1:05:06

scott said he didn't know what was happening that

1:05:08

day and was scared when stayers

1:05:10

killed christopher in

1:05:13

another version he claimed that he had been promised

1:05:15

to hundred and fifty dollars in insurance

1:05:17

money if he drove the getaway car

1:05:20

that was all that he did was drive

1:05:23

roger scott allegedly confess

1:05:25

to a fellow inmates that he was

1:05:27

the one who shot christopher now

1:05:30

even though the cell inmate was only in jail

1:05:32

for a short time and marijuana charges

1:05:35

the prosecutor had no interest in listening

1:05:38

to him that also told

1:05:40

him a more detailed story about killing christopher

1:05:43

in this story scott admitted that

1:05:45

he had killed christopher himself because

1:05:48

he was mad at stairs the

1:05:50

two sources of this anger were

1:05:52

money and jealousy

1:05:54

that was angry it's tires because

1:05:57

he hadn't received some money that stairs

1:05:59

had promised him

1:06:00

the also wanted to go out partying with stairs

1:06:03

that saturday night

1:06:04

the stars had told him that he endeavour

1:06:07

in the kids had plans to get a christmas tree

1:06:10

anyway and all his skates versions one

1:06:12

thing was consistent scott

1:06:14

was the one who shot and killed christopher

1:06:16

milky

1:06:17

righteous guy was the states only

1:06:19

witness to testify about christopher's

1:06:22

murder

1:06:23

the he was the only person who would say stairs

1:06:25

in deborah had plotted it then

1:06:28

offered him two hundred fifty dollars to help

1:06:30

them kill the boy those tires

1:06:32

endeavor professor innocence over and over

1:06:34

again claiming they had nothing

1:06:36

to do with it and it's got was making up

1:06:39

the entire story after deborah

1:06:41

was given her death sentence the took

1:06:43

records fifteen days to decide where to

1:06:45

put her see arizona doesn't

1:06:47

have a death row for women and prison

1:06:50

officials had to create a place for deborah

1:06:52

who was the only female death row inmate

1:06:55

from her solitary so the

1:06:58

a bruise able to watch violence as she'd

1:07:00

never imagine women could do against

1:07:02

each other to play suzanne clowns

1:07:04

prison sounds like a rest prison

1:07:08

during her first year

1:07:09

prison deborah enrolled in a male correspondence

1:07:12

course through the paralegal specialist

1:07:14

program the wishing

1:07:16

was close to a thousand dollars and she

1:07:18

had to pay thirty five dollars a month in

1:07:22

this program she studied many different aspects

1:07:24

of the law from the paralegals

1:07:26

role in the legal profession criminal

1:07:28

law towards and contract he

1:07:31

also studied investigations evidence

1:07:34

legal research and legal reading you

1:07:37

got nine perfect scores of a hundred and

1:07:39

the rest of protest she got ninety five

1:07:42

so she graduated with honors and

1:07:44

the courses helped her understand her legal

1:07:46

case for a close to

1:07:48

two years deborah had no contact

1:07:50

with their mom the last time

1:07:52

she'd spoken with her was over the desperate

1:07:55

phone calls of the day

1:07:56

the christopher was killed

1:07:58

deborah was like to well in jail

1:07:59

i'm told that her mother didn't want to talk

1:08:02

to her she'd been unable to get her mother's

1:08:04

address to send a letter to her then

1:08:07

in late nineteen ninety one deborah made

1:08:09

one last attempt she wrote her mother

1:08:11

a thirty two page letter that explained

1:08:13

what had happened she told were not

1:08:15

as that her father and

1:08:16

for had betrayed her she begged

1:08:18

her mother to understand and to see that

1:08:20

she been railroaded by a dishonest detective

1:08:24

the only address she had was your grandparents

1:08:26

in berlin in on the envelope

1:08:28

she wrote in german grandma and grandpa

1:08:31

isn't true my mother and

1:08:33

alex please grandma please so

1:08:35

the letter arrived endeavors grandmother

1:08:37

called renata immediately

1:08:40

we're not i had had no idea that sandy

1:08:43

and richard had testified against deborah

1:08:46

once she was able to read what deborah had

1:08:48

cells and what deborah had been through she

1:08:51

was really shocked and appalled that

1:08:53

she was also relieved to hear that her daughter

1:08:55

deborah was innocent she immediately

1:08:57

wrote back to deborah and she promised that she would

1:09:00

take care of everything then

1:09:02

it deborah suggestion were not

1:09:04

a cent deborah's letter to her trial attorney

1:09:07

we're not a later called his office and she was

1:09:09

told by a secretary that yes

1:09:11

the letter had arrived and they'd forwarded

1:09:14

it to deborah

1:09:15

for some reason deborah never received

1:09:17

that letter

1:09:19

when deborah never received a response

1:09:21

from her mother she thought

1:09:22

the heartbroken

1:09:24

meanwhile were not i had been waiting for

1:09:26

a response from deborah

1:09:27

the finally we're not a wrote a letter to her

1:09:30

daughter and send it directly to

1:09:32

the prison

1:09:33

deborah got that letter to more

1:09:35

to when she received a letter

1:09:38

there is a renewed sense of hope we get

1:09:40

someone else in your corner

1:09:42

there had to me a lot

1:09:43

with her mother by your side she thought

1:09:45

the she could work i proving her innocence the

1:09:47

renata started a campaign to raise funds

1:09:50

for legal helping getting a successful appeal

1:09:52

the end

1:09:54

she was able to raise up to two hundred

1:09:56

fifteen thousand dollars the

1:09:58

significant amount occur

1:10:00

yeah

1:10:01

that wasn't all at once that came later

1:10:03

i know that's

1:10:04

she's lucky for that because

1:10:07

a lot of people were in prison from

1:10:09

cel dot is so called concession

1:10:12

right who had no hell in are

1:10:14

probably still in prison or maybe

1:10:16

even have been put to death though on

1:10:18

december twenty first ninety ninety three

1:10:21

arizona's highest court rejected

1:10:23

deborah's appeal the

1:10:25

affirmed her conviction for murder conspiracy

1:10:28

and kidnapping and again said

1:10:30

she deserved the death penalty when

1:10:33

the united states supreme court was s to

1:10:35

review that decision they declined

1:10:38

the go any farther to file any other

1:10:40

appeals deborah head to either have

1:10:43

money to hire an attorney or have

1:10:45

an attorney volunteer to help

1:10:47

then she didn't have much money yet this was

1:10:50

only ninety three

1:10:51

yeah

1:10:52

well as as luck would have it the defense

1:10:55

attorney undies rosen quizzed

1:10:57

showed up at the prison to tell deborah

1:10:59

that he would help her

1:11:01

rosen quizzed was a well known attorney

1:11:03

in arizona

1:11:05

the work for the maricopa county public

1:11:07

defender's office

1:11:09

rising to senior attorney with

1:11:11

an impressive record of eight straight not

1:11:13

guilty jury verdicts the

1:11:15

then informed his own criminal defense from

1:11:17

and nineteen eighty three

1:11:19

and at the time a deborah's trial

1:11:21

the moved to california so at

1:11:23

least initially hadn't paid much attention

1:11:25

to her case when he moved back

1:11:27

to arizona he became interested in exonerating

1:11:30

deborah

1:11:31

the lady said that he had received a call

1:11:33

from mechanics were at the prison

1:11:35

who has been looking endeavors case seems

1:11:38

like the general feeling as it she's an

1:11:40

innocent woman from a convicted

1:11:43

one another the general feeling but definitely

1:11:45

a lot of people feel that way

1:11:47

and this attorney very experience

1:11:50

believed that she was i'm

1:11:52

justifiably convicted yes

1:11:54

there are that's what you are an

1:11:57

effective attorney yes

1:11:59

well we need

1:11:59

transcript of the trial

1:12:02

he said what he read disgusted him

1:12:04

instead of a solid murder case he

1:12:06

said what he saw as a character assassination

1:12:10

with really no actual evidence the

1:12:12

also read claims to the concession

1:12:14

with no proof without the concession

1:12:17

they really had nothing against deborah the

1:12:19

new that the jury had believed cel dot

1:12:21

day and so have the media

1:12:24

so the entire case was bad

1:12:26

there was a lot of work to do

1:12:28

so he did go to the prison to meet deborah

1:12:31

ruff increase took the case pro bono

1:12:33

one of the first things he did was to talk

1:12:35

to deborah psychiatrist the

1:12:37

media has made a lot of deborah's flat

1:12:40

aspect when she testified about

1:12:42

her son's murder

1:12:43

ruff and quist learn that deborah had

1:12:45

been heavily medicated at the time

1:12:48

the keep her from being hysterical and

1:12:50

suicidal so this disturb

1:12:52

the psychiatrist when he learned

1:12:54

that this said worked against deborah at her trial

1:12:57

their had actually been repeated incidence

1:12:59

of deborah suffering from intense greece

1:13:02

which was not getting better over time

1:13:05

during these incidents she would become extremely

1:13:07

upset and break down crying

1:13:09

he would cry and se i abandoned

1:13:12

my son i abandoned my son when

1:13:14

i let him go to metro center with that man

1:13:17

it is all my fault because i let him go

1:13:19

you never said anything or did

1:13:21

anything that would lead any of them to believe

1:13:24

that she was involved in the killing of her son

1:13:27

she consistently maintained her innocent

1:13:30

the statements and actions were consistent

1:13:32

with grief and they were inconsistent

1:13:34

with guilt

1:13:36

the other than when she blames herself for letting

1:13:38

christopher go to the mall that day

1:13:40

the jury never knew that deborah was medicated

1:13:43

when she was on the stand

1:13:45

rosen crisper was ridiculous

1:13:47

the automatic appeal of deborah's conviction

1:13:50

hadn't raised even when challenge to the concession

1:13:53

it never claimed a confession is for suckers

1:13:57

reading a lengthy deal gave no indication

1:14:00

the concession was an issue at all rosen

1:14:03

cruz knew that was at the center of the

1:14:05

case after

1:14:07

all it's the only evidence it arizona

1:14:09

head against deborah the been

1:14:11

to people in the room and they told opposing

1:14:14

stories rosen

1:14:16

chris had a do is look at other cases that

1:14:18

detectors saw that he had handled in

1:14:20

the past the see that a been

1:14:23

a pattern of deceit

1:14:24

and rosenquist was good friends with the presiding

1:14:27

judge

1:14:28

the approved in order to give him access

1:14:30

to every criminal case in maricopa

1:14:32

county since nineteen seventy those

1:14:35

and christian staff reviewed eighteen

1:14:37

thousand cases

1:14:39

the took three months here they found

1:14:41

about three hundred this is involving

1:14:43

detective cel doughty another

1:14:45

researcher spent a month and motions

1:14:47

and try

1:14:48

transcripts to search for

1:14:50

any evidence of misconduct

1:14:52

though a total of eighteen questionable

1:14:54

cases for found

1:14:56

seven of those cases arizona

1:14:58

court had ruled so that he

1:15:00

had lied under oath six of

1:15:02

those cases happened before deborah

1:15:04

milky when i travel though

1:15:06

it's really horrible that her

1:15:09

defense lawyer was not privy to

1:15:11

any of this information the

1:15:13

time of deborah's trial the maricopa

1:15:15

county attorney's office had been aware

1:15:18

of problems with cel dirty for

1:15:20

at least seven years

1:15:21

one of the most shocking thing suzette the

1:15:24

courts were questioning saw that his credibility

1:15:26

this before and immediately after deborah's

1:15:29

trial in june of nineteen

1:15:31

ninety eight shows through our part of so

1:15:33

that his interrogation and when case

1:15:35

it became obvious it so that he had

1:15:37

continued questioning the suspect

1:15:40

the even after he didn't vote is miranda rights

1:15:42

and aspirin attorney

1:15:43

that sounds familiar doesn't it i think

1:15:46

he had a habit of doing things like that

1:15:48

the judge ruled everything said after

1:15:50

the request is inadmissible

1:15:52

well and that's what should've happened was deborah

1:15:54

absolutely nov

1:15:56

nineteen ninety ft deborah's conviction

1:15:59

that before the sensor or

1:16:01

throughout another murder concession that's or

1:16:03

that he had obtained saying it was a result

1:16:05

of an illegal arrest and south

1:16:08

that is flagrant misconduct that

1:16:10

decision came in a courtroom and the same

1:16:12

building where deborah had been tried and convicted

1:16:15

that's just amazing to me that these things

1:16:17

are happening in that shared it

1:16:19

definitely seems like her court appointed

1:16:21

to sensitivity the beginning was

1:16:23

that competent and wasn't up to this job

1:16:26

i believe since then they have

1:16:28

nice standards for attorneys who are

1:16:30

allowed to defend death penalty

1:16:32

cases because you're really have to know

1:16:34

what you're doing

1:16:35

you really have to specialize in that

1:16:37

sort of thing here within a few

1:16:39

cases true crime bereaved

1:16:41

sir is an extra attorney added

1:16:44

to the team because it's skilled and

1:16:46

even bring in some very expensive attorneys

1:16:49

for people who are

1:16:50

getting a public defender help out

1:16:54

and besides the new evidence of cel dot

1:16:56

is misconduct

1:16:57

rosen quick charge that jebra head

1:16:59

ineffective counsel

1:17:01

they're both her trial and her first appeal

1:17:03

but in nineteen ninety six deborah

1:17:06

lust another appeal when

1:17:08

this judge ruled that deborah and so

1:17:10

that is version of her concession were

1:17:12

substantially the same

1:17:15

this is outrageous

1:17:17

this judge ruled that the evidence of past

1:17:19

wrongdoing by so that he wasn't

1:17:21

evidence at all the just motions

1:17:23

and testimony from other cases

1:17:26

in which detective cel dot a was the

1:17:28

interrogating officer that

1:17:30

judge was actually eventually removed

1:17:33

from the criminal bench for her bad

1:17:35

decision making and several

1:17:36

this

1:17:38

then on december nineteenth nineteen ninety

1:17:40

seven the arizona supreme

1:17:42

court denied review deborah

1:17:44

post conviction relief appeal

1:17:47

that meant they didn't think the new evidence

1:17:49

was even

1:17:50

worthy of revealing

1:17:52

it's so frustrating years

1:17:54

the first two and is don't see how they could do

1:17:56

it every time

1:17:58

the what you think of deborah teeth

1:17:59

she made mistakes as a mother

1:18:01

or that maybe you think she could have been involved

1:18:04

it really isn't the evidence and the trial

1:18:06

was definitely not fair

1:18:09

warren for deborah his execution was

1:18:11

to be carried out on january twenty

1:18:13

nine ninety ninety eight every

1:18:15

was terrified to stay of execution

1:18:18

is finally granted on january twelve seventeen

1:18:21

days before her execution date

1:18:24

stay stop the execution clock

1:18:26

and rosen closed went back to trying to get someone

1:18:28

to listen to diversity or

1:18:30

well for over two decades deborah continued

1:18:33

to lose

1:18:33

the appeals the threat

1:18:35

being killed by lethal injection was always

1:18:37

hanging over her head the

1:18:40

route deborah's ordeal she maintains her

1:18:42

cautious optimism and a dark

1:18:44

sense of humor helped or cope like

1:18:47

she remembered that during a practice run of

1:18:49

her execution a doctor was taking

1:18:51

her blood when she joked with him well

1:18:53

you might as well check my cholesterol to

1:18:56

then i could see how you'd have to do that

1:18:58

the have to do something to get by when

1:19:01

you're starting to be true

1:19:02

it is someone whose death is inevitable

1:19:04

within a couple of weeks

1:19:06

it would have to be terrifying

1:19:08

when it will just the thought that people want

1:19:10

you dead like that would be hard to live

1:19:12

with when net yes

1:19:14

especially if you're innocent

1:19:16

the deborah would describe her experiences

1:19:18

t tragedies at the same time

1:19:20

first of course the last of her son

1:19:23

and second her unfair trial and

1:19:25

imprisonment

1:19:26

the tourney mike zimmer and

1:19:29

his legal team took over deborah's case

1:19:31

in two thousand and kimmer

1:19:33

described cases with an innocent client

1:19:35

is the most difficult then

1:19:38

he included deborah among these clients

1:19:40

yeah eventually her case reach

1:19:42

the court of appeals for the ninth circuit

1:19:44

and on march fourteenth two thousand and

1:19:46

thirteen the judges overruled

1:19:49

her convictions on the basis of an unfair

1:19:51

trial

1:19:52

deborah finally released from prison camera

1:19:55

gave much of the credit to rosen chris

1:19:57

review of detective south dot is or the case

1:19:59

no i'm sure that was significant

1:20:02

power

1:20:03

had to be when asked after her

1:20:05

release about whether people still perceive

1:20:07

her to be a murderer deborah so are

1:20:09

you i'm be judgmental fine

1:20:12

you didn't have to work in my shoes

1:20:14

the ever did find work as a legal assistant

1:20:17

the law firm of the attorney who helped

1:20:19

her when the appear

1:20:20

anthony here quite often to

1:20:23

when the maricopa county district attorney's

1:20:25

office said it would we tried ever after

1:20:28

that

1:20:28

the returnees michael kimmer and

1:20:31

laurie volpe hell

1:20:32

the motion to dismiss the charges

1:20:35

because the prosecutors conduct with

1:20:37

so egregious the second

1:20:39

trial would violate the constitutional

1:20:41

prohibition against double jeopardy

1:20:44

in january of two thousand and fourteen

1:20:46

america county superior court

1:20:48

judge denied this motion ruling

1:20:50

that she didn't believe that the evidence of cel

1:20:53

dot is misconduct was intentionally

1:20:55

conceal war that the original

1:20:58

prosecutor know leave he acted

1:21:00

in bad faith so that's remarkable

1:21:02

to me as well

1:21:03

yes it is

1:21:05

in december twenty fourteen the

1:21:07

earth on a court of appeals did reverse

1:21:10

this ruling however and ordered

1:21:12

the charges against deborah be dismissed

1:21:14

in finding that a retrial would violate

1:21:17

deborah's constitutional protection against

1:21:19

double jeopardy

1:21:20

the appeals court said

1:21:22

we are unable to conclude that the long

1:21:25

course of violations in this case

1:21:27

or anything but a severe stain

1:21:30

on the arizona justice system

1:21:33

i would circumvent the prosecution

1:21:35

appeal to the their arizona supreme

1:21:37

court in march two thousand

1:21:39

and fifteen supreme court refused

1:21:41

to hear the appeal on march

1:21:44

twenty third judge dismissed the charges

1:21:47

the neighbors attorneys filed a federal civil

1:21:49

rights law suit against or die take who

1:21:51

had retired the

1:21:54

other as well as numerous other phoenix

1:21:56

police officers and the maricopa

1:21:58

county district attorney's

1:22:00

twenty twenty the lawsuit was dismissed

1:22:04

that was pretty shocking to me because

1:22:06

i actually found the documents of her

1:22:08

loss which were extremely convincing

1:22:11

then i did some more reading and a sound that

1:22:13

arizona not

1:22:15

very likely to rule

1:22:17

in favor of someone who's suing

1:22:20

anyone in the government okay

1:22:22

so this kind of a big while of protection

1:22:24

there yeah so

1:22:27

what about stairs and scott her supposed

1:22:29

coconspirators filming

1:22:32

that deborah milky is innocent shouldn't

1:22:34

that have some as effect on

1:22:36

their convictions men

1:22:38

were investigated by detective so dirty

1:22:41

who is now known to have been dishonest

1:22:44

and both men face the death penalty

1:22:46

the gyms tires did have his sentence

1:22:48

reduced to life in prison because

1:22:51

of the supreme court ruling which

1:22:53

challenge the way arizona determined

1:22:55

death sentence

1:22:56

which ability back of the nineteen nineties

1:22:59

the writers got is kind of a whole different story

1:23:02

the has a low i q any has brain

1:23:04

damage although his like

1:23:06

he wasn't low enough to designate him

1:23:08

as intellectually disabled he

1:23:10

was found to have significant deficiencies

1:23:13

in reasoning judgment and problem solving

1:23:17

the public defender handling rodgers

1:23:19

scots appeal claims that scott

1:23:21

was the least culpable of the three

1:23:24

and the only one who may end up being

1:23:26

put to death at the tourney

1:23:28

didn't bring up the flaws in the way arizona

1:23:30

courts determined who was eligible for

1:23:32

the death penalty like steiner's

1:23:35

attorney did oh really

1:23:37

in these cases your life is in the hands

1:23:39

of our competent and even how

1:23:41

motivated your attorney as here

1:23:44

the how motivated is an important

1:23:46

thing

1:23:47

well yeah and scott didn't have anyone

1:23:49

raising money for him either

1:23:51

the as of two thousand and fifteen scott

1:23:53

was still claiming that deborah and styles

1:23:55

plans christopher milk is murder and

1:23:58

it's tires to the actual

1:23:59

today

1:24:01

the also claims that so dirty kept

1:24:03

him for over ten hours at the police station

1:24:06

for he was red is miranda rights girl

1:24:09

had been offered a plea deal of second degree

1:24:11

murder the maximum sentence

1:24:13

of twenty years in prison says back

1:24:15

in nineteen ninety but he declined

1:24:18

two thousand and fifteen scared so that

1:24:20

he refused a plea bargain because

1:24:23

he couldn't bring himself to plead guilty to

1:24:25

murder

1:24:26

you know the he does have a low i

1:24:28

q he does have

1:24:29

this year

1:24:30

the and maybe that wasn't explained

1:24:32

to him that even he was the driver he

1:24:34

would be just as guilty you

1:24:36

seem to think if he only drove than he

1:24:38

wasn't guilty

1:24:39

who participate in the actual

1:24:41

shooting for i although his supposedly

1:24:44

told another inmate that he had

1:24:46

yeah more than once serve any changes

1:24:48

story a lot but yeah

1:24:50

i think he's guilty but still i

1:24:52

don't think is legal representation

1:24:55

has been adequate i think it's been kind

1:24:57

of shitty because he's a poor guy

1:24:59

in you know there's nothing really likable

1:25:01

about

1:25:02

for anyone to stand up forum which is pretty

1:25:04

sad

1:25:06

now deborah's attorneys have said that style

1:25:08

years and or scott actually killed

1:25:10

christopher detective

1:25:12

so dirty the phoenix pd made

1:25:15

it impossible to ever find out what really

1:25:17

happened i doing this horrible

1:25:19

investigation there were never

1:25:21

really going to know

1:25:23

the river

1:25:24

the a formal press conference held by deborah

1:25:26

milk is legal team in march

1:25:28

of two thousand and fifteen ended

1:25:31

with laura narrator from

1:25:33

the center on wrongful convictions the

1:25:35

writer noted that as a law student

1:25:37

she had researched the deborah milky case

1:25:40

and it inspired her to work on

1:25:42

wrongful convictions the urge

1:25:44

the press to noticed a crucial lessons

1:25:46

of deborah's case twenty

1:25:48

five states and the district of columbia require

1:25:51

all interrogations be recorded

1:25:53

is time for arizona to join the ranks

1:25:56

if you really anger that it took so long

1:25:58

in this case ask your legislature

1:26:01

to require police to get out the camera

1:26:03

and record the interrogations so

1:26:05

next time we won't have to wait twenty five

1:26:07

years

1:26:08

well and that seems like a simple solution

1:26:11

right really does does

1:26:13

but we have seen cases where it is recorded

1:26:16

and used against the person when

1:26:18

it's clearly coerce to so

1:26:21

that's not the only problem with getting lot

1:26:23

wrongful the accents or wrongful

1:26:26

oh no coerced confessions though

1:26:28

it's just there's no reason not to record

1:26:31

them

1:26:32

no

1:26:34

the keep it is music was produced by

1:26:36

much mcluhan

1:26:37

the find out more about his work at his

1:26:39

website

1:26:40

podcast p s dot com

1:26:43

if your comments suitcase suggestion

1:26:46

in a beer recommendation anything you'd like

1:26:48

to tell us you can send us an email

1:26:50

to true crime brewery at tie grab

1:26:52

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1:26:54

or even better we love to get voicemail

1:26:56

there's always a direct link an hour show notes that

1:26:58

you can click on send you can record a voicemail

1:27:01

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1:27:03

very simple then we love

1:27:05

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1:27:07

hear from listeners recommendations

1:27:10

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1:27:13

like that we would just be very happy to get

1:27:17

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1:27:21

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1:27:43

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1:27:52

the time for listener feedback

1:28:07

though we have some great feedback and the show

1:28:09

today what have we got dicky

1:28:12

the voicemail is from tammy

1:28:14

and she has a very interesting case

1:28:16

suggestion

1:28:19

remember

1:28:21

any and attack says

1:28:23

i i won't do the

1:28:25

the praise

1:28:26

i've done it before and you guys know i love the

1:28:29

a so i'll just get to the case

1:28:31

i am just

1:28:33

heard about this

1:28:34

never heard about this on before i find

1:28:36

it very interesting and i would love to hear

1:28:38

you that thought that it dining

1:28:40

the great green

1:28:42

one in nineteen sixty six

1:28:45

and dearborn heights michigan them

1:28:48

around nineteen ninety

1:28:50

he married a woman named tanya she

1:28:52

got pregnant and nineteen ninety

1:28:54

and on july nineteen ninety one

1:28:56

still pregnant the program

1:28:59

she was driving him

1:29:00

then he can't

1:29:01

and their unborn baby he

1:29:04

was sentenced to fifteen to twenty

1:29:06

years he had friends

1:29:08

and family that we're supporting him

1:29:10

the whole time writing

1:29:12

letters a guest by two thousand four

1:29:15

he had his first chance of parole and

1:29:17

his mother

1:29:18

the a ladder his sister ah the ladder

1:29:21

the pastor of the their church

1:29:23

named said harris also wrote a letter

1:29:26

and gregory glean was denied

1:29:28

or times before he finally got pulled

1:29:31

in two thousand and eight after

1:29:33

that gregory green

1:29:36

mary's past are fed harris

1:29:38

is thought of say they thought he had

1:29:40

two children of around a

1:29:42

man her and gregory green had

1:29:45

to together the man

1:29:47

at some point and i'm not sure when the first

1:29:49

time happen but she had filed for divorce

1:29:52

the

1:29:53

i only got back or she went back

1:29:56

to him being on

1:29:58

august eleventh two thousand

1:29:59

he she filed for divorce again

1:30:03

the why that could go anywhere

1:30:06

september twenty second two thousand and

1:30:08

sixteen he took her quickly

1:30:10

playing the hook is my first down to

1:30:12

the basement hydra

1:30:14

sharon

1:30:16

had her face she was lying next

1:30:18

time he went and killed

1:30:21

their two young children

1:30:24

the per view

1:30:25

then he brought her to older children

1:30:27

her two children the onto

1:30:30

the basement any trust them in front

1:30:32

of her when

1:30:34

i guess assuming she was gonna die to

1:30:37

he just went upstairs and called nine one one

1:30:39

and

1:30:41

the

1:30:42

then she actually survived

1:30:44

that he got forty five two hundred years in

1:30:46

prison so yeah that's terrible as

1:30:49

far as breweries that i don't i don't

1:30:51

think saddam now but i would

1:30:53

go go in there are several in dearborn

1:30:55

heights so that it

1:30:58

thanks tammy you know dearborn heights

1:31:00

is really nuts

1:31:01

from where i grew up actually some very familiar

1:31:03

with the area or know her swear one

1:31:06

of the reasons or tic this case

1:31:07

i'm pretty shocked i've never heard of this case

1:31:09

because this guy's amount

1:31:10

stern's this is weird or beyond

1:31:13

weird why didn't this get more publicity

1:31:15

and why well are these people

1:31:18

of color perhaps

1:31:20

what i saw that could be the reason for

1:31:23

not wealthy people not white

1:31:25

people

1:31:26

but i digress on that still

1:31:28

i'm really shocked i hadn't heard about it there

1:31:30

in disguise the monster like one of the

1:31:32

worst said never heard of

1:31:34

how horrible

1:31:35

words cannot express how horrible assists

1:31:38

so of course i'd like to

1:31:40

put it in there to be done file al

1:31:42

qaeda gay or

1:31:43

and i'm sure that you can come up with some beers

1:31:46

from that area i know a couple michigan

1:31:48

bears that when we visit my parents

1:31:50

are you always get beer from

1:31:52

it wouldn't be any problem of

1:31:55

great

1:31:56

so that is definitely on our list thanks

1:31:58

again tammy

1:31:59

now we have a couple emails that were going

1:32:02

to read for you the first one

1:32:04

from richard so how about

1:32:06

my husband richard reads the case

1:32:08

suggestion from richard

1:32:10

richard says i've been listening to c c

1:32:12

b and like how you do your due diligence

1:32:15

this may be a future show looking

1:32:18

forward to finding out what beer good us was swinging

1:32:21

hello

1:32:22

thanks richard

1:32:23

the cases referring to is

1:32:26

a woman in christie evans who

1:32:28

was convicted during

1:32:31

her

1:32:32

there has been or past her husband

1:32:34

the convinced her lover

1:32:36

the kill her past her husband yet just

1:32:38

a year and a half ago march of two thousand

1:32:40

twenty one he claims that

1:32:42

he was an abusive husband who's a sexual

1:32:45

deviant and he had forced her to

1:32:47

have sex with somewhere between fifty

1:32:49

and one hundred men three sums

1:32:51

for sums just kind of gross

1:32:54

why you can believe the abuse but

1:32:56

i think the problem here is that she weighed

1:32:58

is implanted out it wasn't done in the heat of the

1:33:00

moment

1:33:01

and she had her lover

1:33:03

that former where right

1:33:05

the you think after being forced with others many

1:33:07

wouldn't even wanna

1:33:08

however he'd be like a to no

1:33:10

kidding but she did plead guilty

1:33:13

to first degree murder

1:33:14

the admitting that she had cooked her lover

1:33:16

ended

1:33:16

during her sleeping husband

1:33:19

and she testified that she was immediately

1:33:21

remorseful when it happened now

1:33:23

if her attorney had us to judge to order

1:33:25

her to prison for only four years but

1:33:27

that wasn't gonna happen

1:33:30

there she got life in prison right

1:33:32

yes

1:33:33

the possibility of parole either

1:33:35

this may put i'm sure we'll going to be working

1:33:37

through

1:33:38

appeals process

1:33:40

yeah and what's funny is her husband david

1:33:42

evans was really a beloved

1:33:44

sadness pastor he

1:33:47

had preached about a text from the devil

1:33:49

to congregation just hours

1:33:52

before zip

1:33:53

india just returned from a mission trip

1:33:55

from mexico

1:33:57

that he had this double life as a swear and

1:33:59

there

1:33:59

what evidence he collected porn and

1:34:02

had arranged for his wife's to meet with men

1:34:04

in oklahoma city

1:34:06

you want a deviant any wasn't nice

1:34:08

to her

1:34:09

he certainly was not sell

1:34:11

her punishment does seem harsh but

1:34:13

i think it's because it was planned like you said

1:34:16

she had someone do it for her he can't

1:34:18

get away with

1:34:18

that that's not cool

1:34:21

okay so one more email i'd like

1:34:23

to read this is from jane with

1:34:25

the suggestion jane rights

1:34:28

i've been listening to your back catalogue of episodes

1:34:30

and currently i'm up to two thousand and eighteen

1:34:33

i enjoy them so much especially the

1:34:35

soothing timber

1:34:36

deploy

1:34:38

thank you jane

1:34:39

i get to go to sleep

1:34:41

to that every night and a lucky who's

1:34:44

to boot like the soothing timber of my voice

1:34:46

in his are the people say i speak in

1:34:48

a monotone and i'm hard to understand yeah

1:34:51

so you take it with a grain of salt can't

1:34:53

please everybody and unit trying to

1:34:55

know food chain likes my voice

1:34:58

yes and you like my voice yes

1:35:00

sir i'm good

1:35:02

thirteen continuous i have a

1:35:04

case suggestion i know you are

1:35:06

inundated with these but i think this

1:35:08

one has all the elements to pique your interest

1:35:11

it's the case of tall and mar in

1:35:13

two thousand and seven twenty three year old

1:35:15

tall and was sound dead from a single

1:35:17

stab wound to his chest after

1:35:20

an argument with his girlfriend now

1:35:22

his girlfriend claim that cowan had stabbed himself

1:35:24

the police appeared to take this at face

1:35:27

value and as such more

1:35:29

or less did nothing to investigate any

1:35:31

further into this i'm

1:35:33

not sure i can do justice to telling you the

1:35:35

ins and outs of the case but there are

1:35:37

plenty of resources to do this including

1:35:39

youtube and facebook pages set up by