0:00

blue diamond honey almonds are

0:02

my love language sweet, salty

0:04

irresistible, but the crunchy

0:06

and tangy, salt and vinegar also give

0:08

me the field the choice is hard with labor

0:10

so good blue diamond almonds, super

0:13

flavor all on a superfood

0:24

true crime brewery contains disturbing

0:26

content related to real like crimes

0:29

medical information is opinion based

0:31

on facts of a crime and should not be

0:33

interpreted as medical advice or

0:35

treatment listener discretion is

0:37

advised

0:43

cranberry i'm chill

0:46

and i'm dick

0:48

it was back in september of nineteen eighty

0:50

side and to muncie indiana

0:53

teenagers were shot and killed

0:55

in their car while they were parked in the

0:57

popular west side per

0:59

these murders stand months see families

1:01

because the victims were well liked

1:04

students at months east north side

1:06

high school kimberly tall

1:08

anything dixon were found

1:10

late at night or the police officer

1:12

who was clearing at the park after closing

1:14

time the repair was still running

1:16

with one window down and the other

1:18

shattered by then fair join

1:21

us at the queen and for the west side

1:23

the murders

1:24

from the very beginning investigators

1:26

were inundated with possible suspects

1:29

family members to serial killers

1:32

suggested motives ranged from

1:34

a random killing the were family

1:36

dispute to a drug deal gone

1:39

wrong although many leads

1:41

have been investigated over these years

1:43

this remains a cold case and

1:45

then during mystery so it should

1:48

be a really interesting discussion today

1:50

i'm planning it so we got have a beer

1:52

for this crime this double murder

1:55

and actually i have a beer is brewed

1:57

in muncie indiana where the crime took place

1:59

that's perfect

2:00

so this is blocked out to sign

2:03

from three slides brewing company in

2:05

muncie an imperial stout

2:07

ten point four percent alcohol by volume

2:11

so going to share this window and

2:13

good it's a black color

2:15

has sort of a medium sized brown head

2:18

nice aroma coffee cocoa

2:20

roasted malt very nice taste

2:22

espresso dark chocolate is

2:25

a little bit late hops which i saw

2:27

it was little bit of a distraction for

2:30

to happy here and the

2:32

scouts not meant to be have the right

2:34

yeah so if i noticed that it's happy

2:37

to me that means it's overhyped that's

2:40

a a small quibble to be beer

2:42

okay let's open it up

2:44

oh okay

3:01

i can definitely smell the coffee

3:03

smells good

3:04

it's pretty coffee forward

3:06

right let's go down to the quiet and didn't

3:09

have a tux sure

3:10

there we go i note actually i get

3:12

the same note three times

3:14

from the person that said sake beer

3:17

noise which i don't know it's a

3:19

real than beer opening at least recorded

3:21

well maybe it's to say it sounds

3:23

similar each time because i only have

3:25

a couple that we recorded that we we

3:28

is yeah really not

3:30

easy to just record

3:32

the beer everyday it doesn't always sound

3:34

that good the have to move the microphone

3:36

over to the can and staffer the bottle

3:39

that's right so it's not sake but it

3:41

may be pre recorded from another

3:43

beer yes we don't

3:46

record opening a beer every time we joined

3:48

the service will said okay

3:50

or enough of that let's go

3:52

to reflect you started were in nineteen

3:55

eighty five this five this twenty seventh

3:57

just another friday for north side high

3:59

school

3:59

students

4:01

the getting to the beginning of a highly

4:03

anticipated weekend there were

4:05

a lot of options for what to do on friday

4:07

and saturday nights in muncie he could

4:09

go to football games hang out of the

4:11

month see more or see a movie to

4:14

the future was playing downtown so if

4:16

you are young couples seeking romance and privacy

4:19

he may take you portable radio and listen

4:21

to music in your car at west side

4:23

park yeah what we used to com boom

4:25

boxes say and as

4:27

ceo nothing like hanging out with

4:29

your good friend making out and see

4:31

what happens

4:33

okay

4:35

the weekend decks and sure up a school friday

4:37

morning wearing his usual blue jeans

4:39

and a polo shirt he spoke with a friend

4:41

in the parking lot and his friend julie

4:44

dropping off a friend in and skipping school

4:46

she's going to southern indiana for the weekend

4:49

invaded ethan the come along he

4:52

declined he told her that he had a test that

4:54

day and he could miss it yeah so that would

4:56

kind of hot chili if only he'd

4:58

done with their right that's right

5:00

though at the end of the day on friday

5:02

the junior class officers had a meeting

5:05

and ethan was the class president the

5:07

class treasurer had questions for

5:09

he said but she decided she talked

5:11

with him on monday but we know for

5:13

east then that monday never came shortly

5:16

after nine pm that saturday he

5:19

sensitive kimberly at her home this

5:21

is where she lives with her mother nancy intercept

5:24

fathered donald vogel the song that's

5:27

a trippy name

5:28

it's german her

5:30

singing bird is something i during the

5:32

bird saying okay so goes

5:34

bird

5:35

okay so kimberley's father

5:37

was a month the physician named anthony

5:40

dowell and he was living with his second

5:42

wife in indianapolis the

5:45

then lived with his parents stephen k

5:47

dixon right there in muncie

5:50

who at eleven fifty p

5:51

in that saturday months he police

5:53

officer teary winters was walking

5:55

his canine dogs partner in west

5:57

side park when he saw small

5:59

volkswagen hatchback with

6:02

it's engine still running that

6:04

wasn't unusual to find cars parked

6:06

there at night the thought it was a couple

6:08

of kids making out or whatever officer

6:11

winters work the late shift for the months the

6:13

police department then he was

6:15

at the park to walk is sad but

6:17

also to tell people who were hanging out and

6:19

parked cars to move along because

6:21

the park close at eleven pm the

6:24

he was checking on vehicles when he saw fresh

6:26

tire tracks near the west end of the park

6:29

and that's when he followed the trucks and saw

6:31

the votes wagon hatchback the

6:33

walked over to the card signed his flashlight

6:36

into an open window what

6:38

he saw was just such a sec that

6:41

he said he just stood there in the dark for a moment

6:43

digesting it the inside of the car

6:46

he saw bodies the teenagers

6:48

the boy and girl we were soon identified

6:51

as ethan dixon and kimberly doll

6:54

ethan had been shot in the torso

6:56

and kimberly had been shot in the head in

6:59

both of them were still fully clothed

7:01

the winter's called in his discovery to police

7:03

dispatch moments later

7:06

another muncie police officer joe

7:08

winkle arrived at the scene there's

7:10

a serious news other crime became known

7:13

more more police arrived

7:15

including a deputy chief of police county

7:18

coroner glenn scroggins was called to the same

7:21

scroggins was an experience that investigator

7:23

who had worked many murders by sunday

7:26

morning the discovery of to dead

7:28

bodies was front page news in muncie names

7:31

were released to the public that word spread

7:33

fast a photo

7:35

was published in the months you start on monday

7:38

morning showing investigators

7:40

standing to the side of the car with a flashlight

7:42

aimed in a window the car doors are open

7:45

and you can see the shattered glass on the passenger's

7:47

side window they can see the bodies

7:50

the time at a desk was reported as

7:52

sometime between when the park closed at eleven

7:55

and when they were found just before midnight the

7:57

city homicide investigation team

7:59

there to see an all night by the time

8:02

the article the photo was published police

8:04

said no suspects you motives were immediately

8:07

apparent and that no signs of a robbery

8:09

had been sound

8:10

so i think that would cause a bit of

8:12

a panic in the community is there just some

8:14

random killer on the list

8:16

yeah raining wasn't a robbery

8:19

know wasn't rape or anything

8:21

like that any sexual crimes know

8:24

the ridges shot they weren't beaten know

8:26

and also say was really no one who

8:28

had a motive to kill these kids

8:31

these not that anyone could think of next

8:33

know what's going on it's a mystery

8:36

the newspapers the star in the

8:38

months evening press reported

8:40

that ethan died from a single gunshot

8:43

wound to his torso kimberly

8:45

died from a single gunshot wound to her

8:47

left temple third shot was

8:49

fired police said which shattered

8:51

the passenger side window of the votes wagon

8:54

hatchback which did belong to

8:56

eat and family the dixon family he

8:59

said they were continuing to interview several

9:01

people who had been in the park and the neither the

9:03

killings they'd found it open nice

9:05

on the dashboard and a gun whole

9:07

sir underneath ethan spidey no

9:10

gun witnesses did say that three

9:12

people were seen around this car

9:15

shortly after the shots or heard unfortunately

9:18

no one could identify any of them

9:21

the one sunday september twenty ninth

9:23

ethan and kimberley autopsies we're done

9:26

they were killed less than twelve earlier

9:28

in west side park their bodies

9:31

were moved from the crime scene to the hospital

9:33

pathology department less than

9:35

a mile away the procedures

9:37

were performed a young pathology

9:39

resident at the hospital who graduated

9:42

from indiana university school of medicine

9:45

this two years earlier the

9:47

coroner glenn scroggins had

9:49

been elected in nineteen eighty two

9:52

in indiana it was pretty common for coroner's

9:55

to have no the education or training

9:57

in medicine or pathology which

10:00

the really strange for

10:02

decades funeral home directors worked

10:04

as coroner's voters have also

10:06

elected a series of former police officers

10:09

firefighters and fire

10:11

investigators as the coroner since

10:14

then that to me is really

10:16

interesting he would thing he would want

10:18

a pathologist to do that

10:21

i would probably wanna have done the

10:23

same time they're going to have an autopsy

10:25

was performed by says issue

10:27

but yeah it seems that

10:29

foreigner with medical training might

10:32

be more able to interpret clues

10:34

as evidence yes gotham seemed

10:36

okay he did have some experience

10:39

that the i know is none other cases

10:41

where the coroner had no clue where they

10:43

call the corners

10:44

the overnight and he say all right you

10:47

know that an accidental

10:48

whenever i remember that yeah this

10:51

one's better than that

10:52

the kimberly's autopsy found the cause

10:54

of death was a gunshot wound to her head

10:56

right near her left ear fragments

10:58

of the bullet or sound lodged in the base of a

11:00

skull the autopsies

11:03

toxicology report showed

11:05

no alcohol and ab annoyance

11:07

cocaine barbiturates albeit

11:10

alkaloids him said it means quaaludes

11:12

valley him or pcp in

11:15

kimberly system there were traces

11:17

of acetaminophen so she took some

11:19

tylenol probably they found that

11:22

the report noted that the time between

11:24

being shot and dying was

11:26

with a mere seconds the she

11:28

must have been struck in a vital

11:30

area of the brain

11:32

the resident also noted that both

11:34

is a curse friend seats were in a reclining

11:36

position was sleeping bags draped

11:39

over both victims kimberly was

11:41

sent on her back when their arms raised of

11:43

her head and so that little else ancient

11:45

history in isn't that hat see

11:48

there was also no trace of any drugs

11:50

or alcohol

11:51

the thing was described as a sixteen year old

11:53

white male who was reclining in the

11:55

driver's seat of his car in

11:57

the window on his side was open and the

11:59

in was falling he was also

12:02

line on his back when he was found the

12:04

been shot in his left chest their

12:07

his sixth rip

12:08

coronary artery

12:09

the heart and left lung were lacerated

12:11

and perforated by the bullet so his

12:14

cause of death was a gunshot

12:16

wound to the chest that caustic sanguine

12:18

nation more severe blood loss

12:20

though he died within probably

12:22

the point minutes oh that type

12:24

of injury yeah he'll bleed out

12:27

pretty fast

12:27

so in the days following the murders months

12:30

he police received hundreds of calls from

12:32

people who thought they saw or knew

12:34

something about that night some

12:36

of the tips did seem promising the

12:39

september thirtieth edition of the months

12:41

he star police said they had information

12:44

that other people were in the park that night

12:47

and the ask them to contact the police

12:49

immediately the the article

12:51

included the phone number for their office

12:54

coroner scroggins said an examination of

12:56

the bullets removed during the attack sees

12:59

identified that they'd been shot with

13:01

a thirty eight caliber handgun the

13:03

morning of tuesday october first

13:05

the sound ported slayings

13:08

might involve three police say

13:10

and police lieutenant david nicholson

13:12

said that investigators had been told

13:15

as many as three people had been

13:17

seen around the car after the shots were fired

13:19

police also said that a vehicle with

13:22

reportedly seen near a sense car

13:24

and it had left the park quickly after

13:27

the gunshots were heard how many

13:29

as twelve cars were in the park at that time

13:32

when the murders happened the

13:34

owners of eight of those cars has been identified

13:36

that the other three or four they weren't

13:39

sure

13:39

this article ended with another requests

13:42

for anyone with information about the case

13:44

to call invest the gators in

13:47

many people would call but most cities

13:49

calls just weren't helpful

13:51

which tends to be the case when you put out

13:53

a request for tips he can be

13:55

inundated with just some craziness

13:58

maria green there's always people they

14:00

think they've seen things are heard things and

14:02

trying to be helpful

14:04

in many people who just want to answer

14:05

themselves for attention off

14:08

and even the people might know something might

14:10

be putting it out to the investigators

14:13

in vague term said they're not really sure

14:16

chef so but yeah this

14:18

stuff to follow up in his and you can't

14:20

turn them down you need to look into every

14:22

league det sista lot of work

14:25

lot of work and this is tougher with

14:27

this case because like you said there's

14:29

there's no motive play piano

14:31

know their modus and on thursday october

14:34

third the muncie star reported

14:36

to the death investigation was focusing

14:38

on two cars and new drivers the

14:41

article read one of them has got to be a damn

14:43

good witness and the other one is a suspect

14:46

is said to be a dark that

14:49

referred to as a chevrolet monte

14:51

carlo,

14:52

but

14:55

they

14:58

didn't call police some of them

15:00

were friends class police chief

15:02

scroggin said that the police believed

15:04

they could rule out a random killer the

15:06

also dismissed early rumors that the murders

15:09

were somehow connected to the role playing game

15:11

dungeons and dragons it's

15:13

called into the police came in so fast

15:15

that investigators had a hard time shielding

15:18

them off when person the police

15:20

considered as a suspect but later

15:22

eliminated was the owner of a well known

15:24

muncie restaurant the man is known

15:26

for shooting off in a local gun range

15:29

the deputy marshal from a smaller town

15:31

nearby came forward and say he was

15:33

in was said parked at night and so

15:36

he could identify a suspect is described

15:38

a guy in a car which he believed to

15:40

be done on vocal the sun buoyed

15:43

else stepfather well

15:45

well well

15:46

so he's an early suspect

15:47

you see is who

15:50

who is a deputy marshal doing in was

15:52

say parked at night the

15:55

the he was there off duty

15:57

yes spears make an outlet

16:00

the other people that's my understanding

16:02

of it a new maiming a good guy

16:04

as a suspect this police officer personally

16:07

familiar with focus on yes

16:10

okay and they weren't friends or anything

16:12

but he did know who he was

16:14

the i'm thinking and who says got an eye witnesses

16:17

identified a guy that

16:19

sounds like every lead

16:20

well some people thought so but there

16:22

really was no reason why would

16:24

he want to kill us

16:25

daughter

16:27

just about everyone said they got along pretty

16:29

well then why would he kill her boyfriend

16:32

that's just kind of weird no

16:34

not that's a very good suspect but

16:37

than police say believe he's the guy

16:40

to this day

16:41

i'm just thinking he's got a police

16:43

officer basically who was in

16:45

the part that night the name

16:47

vulgar sang as a suspect had sounds

16:49

pretty good

16:51

according to police he had done

16:53

the west side park that night in

16:55

the hours after the teenagers are set

16:57

to death and when he

16:59

was stopped at the entrance to the park by a police

17:02

officer the stepfather asks what had

17:04

happened the officer told

17:06

him that two people had been shot that

17:08

the identities of the victims said not yet

17:11

been released

17:12

that's not all of it no according

17:14

to investigators vogel discerning

17:17

had been seen by a deputy marshal parked

17:19

in was side park earlier that night though

17:22

contradictory stories here the

17:24

deputy marshal was interviewed under hypnosis

17:27

and said he believed august and and continued

17:29

to drive to the area where minutes later

17:32

he isn't and kimberly were shot

17:34

though i don't know if they're really conflicting

17:36

because he could have been there

17:38

well

17:39

the could have though he didn't say that

17:41

now he did not say that so

17:44

i think you have someone it needs a little bit

17:46

more investigating

17:47

oh absolutely yes he will be investigated

17:51

the a couple who is also in the park that

17:53

night identified photos is a car

17:55

the police believed as vogel good songs

17:58

but they couldn't identify the driver the car

18:00

deputy police chief campbell began

18:03

to focus on vogel the sun as

18:05

the prime suspect in the case and

18:07

he as kimberly stepfather to meet him for

18:09

an interview

18:10

muncie police lieutenant question

18:12

logo for sun and he consented

18:14

to a polygraph exam would

18:16

he passed but campbell wasn't

18:18

swayed by these polygraph result when

18:21

he followed up after the polygraph

18:23

he asked logo the song if

18:25

he was in the per and both

18:28

of the song answered with in

18:30

my body i wasn't there

18:33

they won't

18:34

yeah so campbell esteem than what

18:36

the fuck are you talking

18:37

about he reader they're not there

18:40

apparently focus on gave

18:42

the same elusive answer and

18:45

and follow of interviews over the years police

18:48

sources said that he had also said

18:50

something like if i was there

18:52

you'll have tell me i was there

18:54

what the hell does

18:55

what's what's going on here

18:57

that's really weird and i don't think

19:00

they could just let it lie

19:01

they're know you're on the one hand

19:03

he took and passed a polygraph so

19:05

to they would usually be enough to eliminate

19:08

him as a suspect right yeah

19:10

but of course those things are not

19:12

that reliable i know it is used

19:14

to me there when the something like this is don't

19:17

see sale the polygraph everybody

19:19

knows about it and as he pass it nobody

19:21

knows about

19:22

yeah that's true me right

19:24

the he he is talking kind of nonsensical

19:27

isn't

19:27

yeah so maybe as he was crazy

19:30

maybe he didn't really you need much of a motive

19:32

you know who knows

19:34

i'd like to know more about the sky but it's

19:36

really hard to find out more about him so

19:38

we have to go with what police have released

19:40

about him

19:41

the

19:42

campbell in other police investigators

19:45

took the transcripts of their interviews to

19:47

the southern police institute in

19:49

lieu of up where an investigative told them

19:51

said vulgar the signs was a control freak

19:54

who was unlikely talk to the police again

19:57

and in fact when the police tried to schedule

19:59

a follow up we focus on they

20:01

were advised by his attorney that

20:04

his client would not be sitting down and talk

20:06

with police again

20:08

i wouldn't say that's a sign of guilt

20:11

it's reasonable to one attorney and not

20:13

speeds but on the other hand is

20:15

this is a stepfather we

20:17

kind of expect him to be helpful and

20:19

to want to help them if

20:21

he thinks that they're focusing on him as a suspect

20:24

that it's understandable

20:26

yeah well and i would take the position that

20:28

he gave his alibi he

20:30

took in passed a polygraph test patients

20:34

let him go

20:35

while they did let him go they didn't hold

20:36

that you ever do still considered him for

20:39

maybe not a prime suspect the

20:41

suspect

20:42

yeah he was the leads us back to a

20:44

couple of the police that we're investing

20:45

during at least near

20:47

so in early, october police released

20:50

a sketch of a or witness

20:52

who reportedly been

20:54

seen in a black monte

20:56

carlo at the park on the night of

20:58

the shootings and they

21:00

received over 100 phone call on

21:02

the day after this was released to the

21:04

public relief addressed

21:07

rumors that ethan dixon might

21:09

have been involved in a confrontation with

21:11

another he just days before

21:13

the shooting the discounted

21:16

the rumor and blamed it on comments

21:18

made a police officer though

21:22

it wasn't really a thing a police officer

21:24

had just been throwing they'd be as it seems

21:26

like here investigators

21:28

also looked into a nineteen eighty incident

21:30

in ten corti a kansas there

21:33

are too young people were shot to death while

21:35

they were sitting in a parked car that

21:37

in the and deputy chief campbell said

21:40

that while the cases were similar he

21:42

didn't believe they were

21:43

acted so no say high school

21:45

students return to classes the

21:47

monday after the murders just

21:50

two days well yes school was

21:52

scheduled know didn't cancel it things

21:54

are far from normal though well

21:56

known students were gone shot

21:58

to death while sitting in

21:59

the current a local park

22:02

in a book written on these murders the west

22:04

side park murders months is most

22:06

notorious cold case keith

22:09

royston and douglas worker there's

22:12

treasure amy lessing well recalled

22:14

the sharks she saw that a friend east and

22:16

sudden death the desk

22:18

was empty she's quoted saying and twenty

22:20

nineteen interview lana

22:23

classes with the isn't this desk was empty

22:25

a me dinner remember any large scale

22:27

meetings of students faculty and counsellors

22:30

this is i don't think they gather is in a group

22:33

if you wanted to talk to somebody you could

22:35

but mostly we talked among ourselves

22:37

so i don't think that mental

22:39

health and support were quite

22:41

looked at the same in the nineteen eighties

22:44

and it probably

22:44

we would be handled very differently today

22:47

but

22:47

for kind of left on their own to deal with

22:49

this

22:50

that's a rude awakening

22:52

for a young person to see the mortality

22:55

of a schoolmate

22:56

critically in excess

22:58

well yes very brutal

23:01

the okay rankin kim's cheerleading

23:03

sponsor said in another twenty

23:05

nineteen interview

23:07

that was probably the worst day of my teaching

23:10

career

23:11

worse than the shuttle exploding and

23:13

nine eleven

23:14

in oklahoma city bombing because

23:17

this was home

23:19

keeping friend julie day the who

23:21

had invited ethan to go away that we can

23:24

while on the monday after the killings

23:26

working in the school office during her free

23:28

period and her droplets

23:30

to collect and record student attendance

23:32

records the secretary in the

23:34

office asked if she could descend roll

23:36

kim anything from school because

23:39

she just couldn't bring herself to do it

23:43

the julie agreed and she had to take their

23:45

information and pull their paperwork

23:47

so julie daisy and amy letting

23:50

well both remembered that students

23:52

gathered outside of school hours to

23:54

talk about the loss of their friends they

23:56

all shared memories of kimberly anything

23:59

rip

23:59

the ridley ask themselves why these murders

24:02

happened no one could think

24:04

of a recent or who would do this

24:07

the there were fears that someone out there had

24:09

killed them and might do it again like a

24:11

random serial killer though

24:13

everyone felt very vulnerable

24:15

the initial police investigation

24:18

focused on the lives of kimberly

24:20

anything the reviewed

24:22

the two teenagers activities in the

24:24

hours leading up to their murders the

24:26

nothing turned up to explain why they were

24:28

targeted that is where the fear

24:30

is that there is a random killer and loose

24:32

in muncie and nobody was

24:34

safe

24:35

so i think it's important that we remember

24:37

this is a really different time

24:39

now is t teams were murdered police

24:42

would have multiple read

24:43

this is the help get a deeper look into

24:45

their activities relationships any

24:48

than their thoughts and feelings the

24:50

by this i mean cellphones

24:52

and social media

24:54

you can really find out a lot about a person

24:57

especially a young person using

24:59

these venues you sure can

25:02

none of this existed in nineteen

25:04

eighty five captain paul caught

25:06

was in charge of officer training at this

25:08

time that he was pulled

25:10

away from those cities to help investigate

25:13

the murders

25:14

he went through the case file and

25:16

notice that deputy chief campbell

25:19

was really focus on kimberly stepfather

25:22

done vulgar the song but

25:24

tuck so many reasons why he was

25:26

likely not guilty

25:28

there we talked about some of us then

25:30

on sunday october six the

25:32

day after kimberly dow's stepfather

25:35

was supposed to talk to police investigators

25:38

but had not on the advice of his attorney

25:40

to muncie star updated readers on the

25:42

west side park investigation at the when

25:44

we point see police

25:46

lieutenant david nicholson told the newspaper

25:49

that investigators were working fourteen

25:52

sixteen hours a day and interviewing

25:54

people all the time we

25:56

have nothing new today nicholson's

26:00

the about it doesn't news sources had been

26:02

interviewed nicholson was quoted

26:04

saying we're picking up people bringing

26:06

them in and interviewing them after

26:09

we have to them they've been released

26:12

nicholson fabricates was hard to solve

26:14

because there were so few clues the

26:17

newspaper article mentioned the knife

26:19

that had been found on the dashboard of these

26:21

insults wagon and the gun

26:23

holsters that had been found

26:24

under his betty

26:26

the me that's one of the strangest thing

26:29

if he were lying there

26:31

the shot through the car window

26:34

how would be done closer get under his body

26:37

they were pretty sure it wasn't ethan

26:39

there

26:40

somebody would have to put it there

26:42

yeah i don't know if they

26:44

drafted in his and sell that after

26:47

maybe something like that could have happened

26:49

i guess

26:50

the i suppose you could have approach

26:53

the car the gun

26:55

in the holster and as

26:57

you take the gun out of the holsters toss

26:59

a holster into the car and it ends up on the

27:01

driver's seat

27:02

and happen i guess season heading

27:04

up at that time

27:05

he might have then yeah

27:07

especially kimberly

27:08

the shot first

27:10

the real question i would have those

27:12

who about the nice and a dashboard

27:15

the tier

27:16

that was going on with that it wasn't used

27:18

in the committing the crime now nobody

27:21

was stabbed of cel blood on it do

27:23

we know if that was he since nice

27:25

yes that was his and say okay

27:27

who was sitting on this one

27:29

why on earth he got it out to

27:31

trying to send them or what

27:33

very strange i don't know or maybe

27:36

maybe they are going to be up there make an out

27:38

hot and heavy into didn't want to be disturbed

27:40

so he had a nice out that

27:43

seems unlikely seems unlikely just

27:46

when the way

27:47

the knife would be sitting on a desperate

27:49

well you're not the only one to wonder that dickie

27:51

on the sure it's a big mystery

27:54

the the reward for information leading

27:56

to another rest rooted ten thousand

27:58

dollars thousand dollars

28:00

offered by the mayor and another five

28:03

thousand dollars offering by the american

28:05

national bank officials the

28:07

public was invited to contribute to the reward

28:09

find as well twelve to fifteen

28:11

officers were working on the case

28:13

at that time

28:15

eleven months after eighth inning kimberly

28:17

were shot just weeks before the

28:19

local newspapers published stories

28:21

about how the crime was still on sought after

28:24

a year

28:25

a man named james jimmy

28:27

swing lee was pulled over by

28:29

months the police

28:31

when we was

28:32

that her driving through a set the

28:34

twenty three year old swing league a police

28:37

a false name of the time heaven

28:39

l six and

28:40

which really you know seem strange

28:43

because that was east and last name but

28:45

the police officer that pulled over at

28:47

the time hadn't realized that

28:49

they offer swingle he had told people

28:51

on the night of the murders said he had

28:54

shut the two teams in in

28:56

a series of meetings and the night ethan and

28:58

kimberly die the and in

29:00

the days immediately afterwards swing

29:02

li told several people that he had

29:04

been in the park that night

29:07

in one particular case

29:09

when we allegedly threatened and acquainted

29:12

they have already killed two people

29:14

tonight i'll blow your brains out now

29:16

this could have just been the

29:17

the evenings of a jerk prevent or

29:20

could be a killer right

29:22

so he definitely had to be investigated

29:24

oh yeah now jimmy lived a life

29:26

that was so those crime and violent

29:29

death the news young the violence

29:31

was done by others on friday to

29:33

nice nineteen seventy two swing

29:35

least eight year old sister cindy and

29:38

ran out in front of their house and into i'm

29:40

coming traffic you hit by

29:42

a car surfing multiple serious

29:44

injuries the

29:46

university student sorry accident in

29:49

is your view mirror stopped and tried

29:51

to give cindy and ctr but

29:53

she died just after four pm that day

29:56

at the hospital system the and

29:58

surviving brothers were jackie

29:59

the infamy freely

30:02

gimme born in nineteen sixty

30:04

two was nine years old when his sister

30:07

was killed now close to a decade

30:09

later on january twenty seventh

30:12

nineteen eighty one jackie

30:14

swing lee was arguing with his wife becky

30:16

in their home when she hit him in

30:18

the head with a cigarette lighter so

30:21

i'm assuming this is one of those old fashioned

30:23

big cigarette lighters that would sit on tape

30:26

their desks you see them in the old movies

30:28

i would think throwing my little bit

30:30

later adam isn't gonna do anything

30:33

the jackie swing li staggered in

30:35

cel down and died the

30:38

delaware county coroner at the time larry

30:41

cole who was a physician initially

30:43

ruled his death a homicide but investigators

30:46

later decided that jackie had died from

30:48

a brain hemorrhage that was on related

30:51

to the blow to his head

30:53

the what are we saying it's just a coincidence

30:56

the i guess is saying that he had we

30:58

can email from a sooner something

31:01

that made here is likely to

31:03

bleeding a higher possibility

31:06

says it's not homicide they have to be pretty

31:08

sure that that would have kill them if

31:10

they're trying to make in a homicide to have to say

31:12

that he blew the head cause the bleeding

31:15

kill them

31:16

the i just don't understand how they came to the

31:18

conclusion that it definitely didn't have anything

31:20

to do with it

31:21

all i got from this is that hussein

31:25

hemorrhage was at the base of the skull he

31:28

was struck in the on his forehead

31:30

so that's not the place where you'd expect

31:32

to bleed

31:33

well yeah that's good

31:34

so it looks to me like they're saying

31:36

they accuse gonna have to bleed

31:39

anyway okay well that's a little sense

31:41

to me though is that it it is strange

31:44

now

31:44

he brickhouse noted that jackie

31:46

swing li and his brother jimmy had

31:48

been drinking heavily all that day

31:51

jackie swing we was twenty and

31:53

me twinkly was eighteen years old at that

31:55

time the reason for the argument

31:57

that day is known only to the sea

31:59

when we brothers and jackie so

32:02

effect

32:03

jackie a jimmy's mother later

32:05

told the month a police officer said

32:08

a little more than nine months after jackie

32:10

died the widow becky

32:12

gave birth to a baby that was fathered

32:14

by jimmy swing the

32:17

was this something between the

32:19

brothers was he sleeping with that keith

32:21

he can take what you will from that story i guess

32:24

that's interesting stuff the

32:27

fact is she gave birth to a baby followed

32:29

by jimmy

32:30

the was nine months after oh yes

32:33

so i don't think she was pregnant

32:35

jackie was killed or died it

32:38

could have been a fair going on because that's

32:40

pretty thick if you're without and

32:43

then she had to get pregnant within a month or so

32:47

within a few weeks as the murders of ethan

32:49

in kimberly months he police had another

32:51

double homicide to investigate this

32:54

was on thursday december fifth nineteen

32:56

eighty three two women

32:58

thirty seven year old carol v this

33:00

and sixteen year old daughter wendy were

33:03

shot and killed in their home police

33:05

quickly arrested their twenty year old neighbor

33:08

james randall campbell and he

33:10

was charged with the murders windy

33:12

was identified as is some time girlfriend

33:16

the you threatened wendy and police

33:18

said he kicked in the door of their home the

33:21

first shot the mother and then the daughter

33:24

though he may nineteen eighty six james

33:26

randall campbell was convicted and

33:28

sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in prison

33:31

it was a real relief to the people in muncie

33:34

to see the quick resolution of this crime

33:36

but it also put more pressure on investigators

33:39

to solve the west side park murder monday

33:42

october seventh nineteen eighty five

33:45

deputy police chief campbell release

33:47

the could visit sketch of a man who

33:49

was one

33:50

it for questioning and connection with

33:52

the shooting the drawing was of a man

33:54

with glasses with his hair party down the

33:56

middle in the months he eating press

33:58

he was described as a white me

33:59

know about five feet ten inches

34:02

tall weighing one hundred and fifty

34:04

to one hundred and sixty pounds

34:06

about twenty four years old with

34:08

the slender built and a thin faced

34:10

with acne

34:11

the cars

34:12

twenty nineteen interview campbell

34:14

said the sketch was later determined by

34:16

police to be of to me swing

34:18

li said the newspaper reported that

34:20

the man me either be a witness to

34:23

or a suspect in the double killing

34:25

the ammo also said that police said confirm

34:28

that ethan in kimberly were invited

34:30

to a ball state university fraternity

34:32

party that saturday night

34:34

they didn't attend

34:36

the following day october eight

34:39

the muncie evening press published a drawing

34:41

which laid out the location of he since volkswagen

34:44

hatchback in the park police said

34:46

a sketchy the suspect had set off one

34:48

hundred phone calls and tips from the

34:50

public police are they had interviewed most

34:52

of the people they wanted to speak to annotated

34:55

remove them from their list

35:06

no word from true crime

35:08

brewery after dark it

35:10

was just an ordinary night the dogs

35:12

had been said and what we ordered thai

35:14

food for dinner afterward i changed

35:17

into my pjs logic went in

35:19

for to see to beer then suddenly

35:21

i vanished

35:22

it wasn't worried he didn't call

35:25

nine one one or canvas the neighborhood

35:27

looking for me he actually found me

35:29

on the back patio on my lounge

35:31

chair scoring some quality time

35:33

with best scenes now i'd done

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have been concerned about you mysterious disappearing

35:43

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35:45

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as i do there's no mystery to me

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37:48

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37:50

please send us an email to true crime

37:53

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37:55

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37:57

link and are shown up the and

38:01

where you can quick and record right

38:03

from your own device either

38:05

way we moved here from

38:14

the lab tests would show the gunshot residue

38:17

was on both east and and kimberly

38:19

which led investigators to believe that their

38:21

killer had been standing very close

38:24

to the teens when he shot them or

38:26

that he is held a gun inside the car

38:28

many shut the kids

38:29

well and that might explain how that

38:32

cluster ended up underneath ethan

38:34

the great

38:35

for weeks after that

38:36

that's rumors and fear

38:39

really overtook their peers

38:41

just weeks after the west side park murders

38:44

jimmy swimmingly left his friends and family

38:46

and muncie and moved to florida met

38:48

sally suspicious as he move away after

38:51

a murder suddenly lanyard

38:53

right so sweetly told a police

38:55

informant

38:56

that he had been with two men on september twenty

38:59

eighth nineteen eighty five and a day

39:01

it kill jennifer anniston in west side park

39:03

soil he also told the informant that

39:05

he was leading muncie for florida buyers

39:08

in florida swing we mostly lived

39:10

under a highway overpass he didn't

39:12

know anyone in the state has he could have been

39:14

visiting

39:15

they didn't prevent him from getting in trouble

39:17

like he always do her yeah the

39:21

was arrested in florida in december since

39:23

nineteen eighty five every

39:25

held a knife to the threat of a man the

39:28

maritime to swing have

39:30

to swing we bragged that he was moving to australia

39:33

then he would never follow through with a

39:35

move in swing they didn't like that

39:37

some guy who is definitely

39:39

prone to violent

39:41

similarly mom nancy received

39:43

an anonymous call after kimberly's

39:45

murder

39:46

then she would describe

39:47

this is one of the cruelest telephone calls

39:49

imaginable so what sounded

39:51

like a young man or a keen on the phone

39:54

told nancy that kimberly had been an innocent

39:57

bystander and that east and

39:59

had been the intent

39:59

it then it was one

40:02

of many to serving cause likely

40:04

majors to hurt nancy and

40:06

that's

40:06

comfort her

40:08

now not only had her daughter been killed

40:10

but her husband done kim stepfather

40:12

was the target of the police investigation

40:15

at least one of the target

40:17

because campbell the deputy police

40:20

chief had focused on

40:22

vulgar song early in the investigation

40:25

and spoke publicly about a person

40:27

close to the victims in his

40:28

interviews with reporters

40:31

the a bit nancy vocals concerns consistently

40:34

defended her husband she said

40:36

that he had arrived home from a football game

40:38

before the shootings occurred and

40:40

he didn't go out again at night until about

40:43

twelve thirty am after

40:45

nancy asked him to go look for kimberly

40:47

who had mr eleven pm curfew years

40:50

later in interviews was done vulgar

40:52

son cruz attorney logo

40:55

good song maintain that he was innocent

40:57

the also complained that investigators

40:59

focus on him the interfered

41:01

with finding the real killer he

41:04

said if they had properly conducted

41:06

a vigorous investigation of the sack said

41:08

they had and had listen to

41:10

what nancy and i had to say i am

41:12

convinced a killer or killers would now

41:14

be in jail the citizen

41:16

and ninety ninety seven interview it

41:19

was easier to follow one man's preconceived

41:21

notion that it had to be the stepfather rather

41:24

than get down to the hard work of solving

41:26

a horrible crime

41:28

nancy also gave a statement to

41:30

her husband's attorney she said

41:33

to me this is a nightmare that

41:35

not in one's wildest dreams could

41:37

be made up i want to know

41:39

what happened that night

41:41

and i would not protect anybody to solve

41:43

this murder

41:44

nancy was very believable as a

41:47

grieving mom

41:48

yeah absolutely

41:50

hey rankin when of kimberly's teachers

41:52

and her cheerleading sponsor that

41:55

she didn't believe the room

41:56

it's about kimberly stepfather

41:58

she said it's appearance

41:59

nightmare

42:01

kimberly mom nancy died in nineteen

42:03

eighty seven a little more than two

42:05

years after kimberly was killed in west

42:08

the pair

42:09

he had been attending candlelight services

42:11

that high street united methodist church

42:14

which she had a fatal heart attack her

42:16

funeral service was held at the same church

42:19

where kimberly sooner had been held

42:21

since two years earlier

42:23

the are incredibly sad

42:25

they are years now jimmy swim we

42:27

had gone to florida after the west side

42:29

park murders and some people

42:32

even told investigators that he had left town

42:34

to very next day after the murders

42:37

august of ninety six he had returned

42:39

to muncie that's when

42:41

swimmingly had another run in with the police

42:44

with august seventeenth nineteen

42:46

eighty six when police pull them over

42:48

any given that false name of kevin

42:50

dixon and told the officer

42:52

that he lived in lakeland florida he

42:55

was charged with driving without a license

42:57

on him and running est

42:59

record for ninety ninety one

43:01

confirm that swinging we failed to appear

43:04

for his court hearing and he didn't pay

43:06

any judgment or

43:07

the court costs

43:09

from the mid nineteen eighties to the midnight

43:11

he nineties swing we had several

43:13

more run ins with the law

43:15

court records show that he was charged with

43:17

theft deception drunk driving

43:20

the burglary intimidation

43:24

totally conduct in public and

43:26

the execution you sits

43:28

in all around fun guy i guess

43:30

sandwich

43:31

he was given one year probation

43:34

the and was ordered to stay away from his victim

43:36

ruff go essex who later

43:38

played a role in with prosecution

43:40

and conviction on a murder charge

43:43

there will kill them murder case swings

43:45

biggest fan

43:47

the for several burglaries

43:49

in nineteen eighty five swing li who was

43:51

then twenty two years old was one

43:53

of a dozen men charged with racketeering

43:56

in connection with a series

43:57

the business burglaries

44:00

the burglaries happened between february

44:02

and may nineteen eighty

44:03

for it three farm supply

44:05

businesses to drugstores

44:08

and that electronics store

44:10

swing way and is coconspirators were indicted

44:13

swing we the tourney argue that he was

44:15

not guilty

44:17

and at the prosecutor's office had failed

44:19

to provide evidence said he was involved

44:21

in these crimes at all when

44:24

we charges were dismissed and september

44:26

ninth of nineteen eighty five

44:28

nineteen days before kimberly and

44:30

then listen to that

44:32

the website that killings were often referred

44:34

to as a lover's lane crime in

44:36

the super market tabloid the weekly

44:38

world news which more often

44:41

reap forty nine news like aliens

44:43

and reincarnations of all this

44:47

the net the evening press reported that the killings

44:49

are featured in the november twelve

44:51

nineteen eighty five edition of the tabloid

44:54

under the headline lovers lane

44:56

murders

44:57

the most notorious lovers lane

44:59

killer that i could think of is probably

45:01

david berkowitz the son of sam

45:04

then he was arrested nineteen seventy seven

45:06

they can meeting each shootings

45:09

in new york city so

45:11

famous but still unsolved as the zodiac

45:13

killings in the late nineteen sixties and

45:16

seventies

45:17

the happened in san francisco

45:20

though people had their thoughts

45:22

and feelings like that when they heard this

45:24

yeah it would make their mind go

45:26

to a serial killer

45:27

right amy rushing well the

45:30

class treasure who is friends with these and

45:33

would recall it right after the murders of kimberley

45:35

a nice and one of their mutual

45:37

acquaintances responded strangely joseph

45:40

which is not his real name the

45:42

more unsettled by the killings or their

45:44

classmates than anyone else he

45:47

seemed emotionally disturbed and obsessed

45:49

with the killings amy describe

45:51

how joseph came to her house one night and sat

45:54

down a window asking to come inside

45:56

the remembered that he even told some friends

45:59

that had a nice you can kill

46:01

him off and no one would stop

46:03

the joseph went into the military after

46:05

graduating from north side high school

46:08

then years later he was living in a month see

46:10

housing jack so amy

46:12

wondered for years after his joseph

46:15

had committed the murder of ethan and kimberley

46:18

or if the murders had just pushed him over the

46:20

edge

46:21

that was not the first person who seemed

46:23

threatening after the killing

46:25

story about suspicious activity

46:27

continued over decades

46:30

then it was shared with investigators that

46:32

most were just vague suspicions and it

46:34

really lead to nothing

46:37

in two thousand twelve muncie

46:39

police talk to a man who claim to have

46:42

heard some relatives talk about helping

46:44

a man after the murders three

46:47

degrees of separation or something so

46:49

so much in two thousand

46:51

two thousand retired delaware county

46:53

police officer the mercy

46:55

police that he had been told the

46:58

son of a prominent local person was involved

47:00

in the murders september

47:02

two thousand and fourteen the us

47:04

is or the book the west side park murders

47:07

published a story and the star press newspaper

47:09

about the case after the article's

47:11

publication many people came

47:13

forward with more series and suspects

47:16

a county police officer contacted

47:18

the muncie police and expressed

47:20

his suspicions of a police officer

47:22

who had been in my side park tonight of the murders

47:25

that it would turn out of this is just

47:27

another suggestion which had no proof behind

47:31

the other kids came in and they

47:33

included a man who told police

47:35

that the composite drawing of a suspect

47:37

that had been released back in nineteen eighty five

47:40

the and reprinted in twenty fourteen

47:42

looks like a man he knew although

47:45

when he had no information that connected

47:47

the man to the crime so that's

47:49

the kind of thing you really don't call and someone

47:51

looks a little bit like a sketch

47:54

there has to be more to it no

47:56

woman called to say that on the night of the murders

47:58

a friend of the so

47:59

of her boyfriend came running

48:01

there has and said he had done a bad thing

48:04

and she said that neither see nor the boyfriend

48:07

knew the name of this friends

48:09

another man recalled that on the night of the killings

48:11

i guess had left a party but then

48:13

returned thrust like rambo

48:16

with a really wild look in his eyes

48:19

i didn't have any evidence to connect him

48:21

to the murders either another

48:24

man came forward to accuse a woman

48:26

of the killings saying he believed

48:28

that the woman had mistakenly killed

48:31

ethan and kimberly when she thought

48:33

the caught her boyfriend in a parked car

48:35

with another woman

48:36

wow so no shortage of tips

48:39

or leads although the quality

48:41

of them is questionable

48:42

yeah and they all lead to nothing

48:44

yes there were a lot of rumors

48:48

no real information it

48:50

could lead to finding the killer the

48:53

mercy police patrol monetary winters found

48:55

the bodies in a since car in west side

48:57

park it impacted rest of his

48:59

life and it also made him a suspect

49:01

in the minds of some people september

49:04

two thousand and fourteen interview with the star

49:06

press winters recalled how

49:08

shocked he was when he heard some people believed

49:11

he was a killer the blame

49:13

the rumor how to run a as reports it said

49:15

he was off duty and just happened to be walking

49:17

his dog in the park that's

49:19

when found murdered couple it

49:22

is was working as canine partner that

49:25

is also telling people leave the park

49:27

after closed it alone pm part

49:30

of his job in two

49:32

thousand and fourteen the to

49:34

the mayor press the muncie police department

49:36

to order him to surrender his guns for

49:38

testing the if they were used

49:40

in the crime there's to

49:43

show that winters weapons had not been used

49:45

in the killings the rumors never

49:47

went away

49:48

for that really

49:49

the i wouldn't say it ruined his life but

49:51

it followed him through his whole life

49:54

nineteen eighty six both the cheese

49:56

and deputy chief as a month cpd

49:59

said

49:59

they believe the killings of kimberly in east

50:02

and we're not random

50:04

campbell said he still had the same suspect

50:06

in his mind a year earlier

50:09

kimberly step father donald

50:11

vulgar song

50:13

campbell said that the suspect was still

50:15

under consideration because after inconclusive

50:17

results of the lie detector test

50:20

the person had refused to further cooperate

50:23

with the department's investigation

50:25

remember

50:27

local the song claim that he had passed

50:29

the polygraph the campbell

50:31

said he was confident that this crime

50:33

would be solved

50:34

the tenth anniversary of the murders the

50:37

police take our western and west side park

50:40

former my see deputy police chief

50:42

robert weller the did he

50:44

had said officers to the park just before

50:46

midnight in september twenty

50:49

eighth ninety ninety five there's

50:51

just on the off chance that the perpetrator

50:53

would show up and the tenth anniversary right

50:56

nothing came of this then in two

50:59

thousand and ten in a newspaper article

51:01

written by the authors of the west side park

51:03

murders these raised

51:05

in and douglas worker and twenty fifth

51:07

anniversary of the murders when

51:10

investigator to focus on a man it

51:13

often been mentioned in connection with the murders

51:16

and you recognize his name jimmy

51:18

swing li

51:19

yeah within a few days as the murders

51:22

people had begun telling police that they

51:24

believed jimmy swing lee was

51:26

involved on october fifth of

51:28

eighteen eighty five a man whose

51:30

house

51:31

broken into just a few houses

51:33

down the street from where when we lived

51:35

said he believed swing we had committed

51:37

the burglary the man told to

51:39

police officers that he believes swimmingly

51:42

was involved in

51:43

or at least have some knowledge of the west

51:45

side park murders

51:47

in early december nineteen eighty five

51:50

around the same time swing lee was arrested

51:52

in florida for holding a nice to

51:54

a man's throat and threatening him the

51:57

police officers begin talking about

51:59

swing li

51:59

as a possible suspect

52:02

police interviewed swing least one friend

52:04

whom he later married

52:06

it on september sixteenth nineteen

52:08

eighty seven less than two years after

52:10

the killings the me twinkly

52:12

was given a psychological stress evaluate

52:15

or test

52:16

the monkey police

52:18

and he failed three relevant questions

52:20

and all three were in reference to the nineteen

52:22

eighty five murders in west side park

52:25

in january nineteen eighty six

52:28

four months after the murders police

52:30

talk to talk man who said the jimmy sweetly

52:32

was afraid police would look for him in

52:35

connection with the murders the

52:37

police investigators told in february

52:39

nineteen eighty seven amen

52:42

close to swing li swing

52:44

we had comes to his house the night in homicides

52:47

and so did he had been with two other people and was

52:49

aipac that night a

52:51

drug deal gone bad swimmingly told the

52:53

man and teenagers in a parker

52:56

been killed we we told

52:58

the man that one of the three men had pulled

53:00

a gun and a holster come out with

53:03

it so

53:05

this lines up with a holster that was found

53:07

the news and dixon's car that

53:09

information had been reported a local papers

53:12

so it could have been made up to sit the sack

53:14

so the case

53:16

real but he seems like a dead suspect

53:19

me

53:20

it does

53:20

eleven years after kimberly anything

53:23

were killed in west side park there

53:25

was another murder that made headlines in

53:27

muncie brian in

53:29

sco who is thirty two years old

53:32

the so nearly decapitated in

53:34

his apartment on november eleventh

53:36

nineteen ninety six

53:39

nineteen year old james essex called

53:41

nine one one after he found his roommate

53:43

dead oh with

53:45

on his bag with a pillow over his face

53:48

police found in a nearby

53:50

police came to believe that james essex

53:53

had beaten in sco with a shovel

53:56

burn jimmy swing li cut his throat

53:59

essex worked out a deal with

54:01

prosecutors that he wouldn't be charged

54:03

in connection with the murder in exchange

54:05

for his testimony against swing li though

54:09

the dispute that led to ensconced murder

54:11

with over forty seven dollars that he owed

54:13

for the rent on the apartment

54:16

if he would do that i could certainly see

54:18

him shooting

54:19

if in and kimberly yeah i

54:22

would be big leap for me

54:23

didn't the james s get quite

54:26

a deal

54:27

the years in

54:29

nineteen eighty seven a woman close to swing

54:31

li hopefully sit here drop

54:34

the knife he used to kill in scope down

54:36

storm drain and another

54:38

woman told police is suing they said

54:40

heater in schools throat the put

54:42

amount of his misery pathologist

54:45

to examine in scope that his

54:47

head was mostly severed from his body

54:50

the good guide as examination severe

54:53

bloodless from cause to his carotid artery

54:55

and juggler way on

54:57

may twenty second eighty ninety eight delaware

55:00

county grand jury indicted

55:02

to thirty five year old swing i on

55:05

a murder charge for in school staff the

55:07

prosecutor in a case cause in schools

55:09

killing that is brutal

55:11

murder as you're fine in delaware county no

55:14

one is suing they had practically said his head

55:16

us swings defense attorney said

55:19

it in schools roommate james essex

55:21

and as success father rocky had

55:23

actually committed the crime for

55:27

british ninety ninety nine the

55:29

jury deliberated for less than four

55:31

hours you for signing swimmingly

55:34

guilty the reason to sixty

55:36

five years in prison

55:38

oh in march twenty twelve a person

55:40

close to swing we was interviewed by police

55:43

and said a swing we associate head

55:45

own de monte carlo

55:47

remember a monte carlo had been seen

55:50

the or eaton's car

55:51

man told police that in

55:54

the morning after the murders swing we woke

55:56

him up and said that a man he

55:58

had been with had shut people in

56:00

west side park after an argument when

56:04

we didn't specify that he was in the park

56:06

this man believed said he was

56:09

the man off the told police that the monte

56:11

carlo had been taken to arizona where

56:13

it was destroyed

56:15

the woman interviewed by police said around the same

56:17

time and twenty twelve confirmed

56:19

that the swing we associate had

56:21

driven a monte carlo in twenty

56:24

twelve investigate

56:25

there's review to report

56:26

from a law enforcement agency outside

56:29

of the month see police department said

56:31

has been told that the west side park killings

56:34

had resulted from a dispute in the park

56:36

so the report said that isn't dixon

56:39

said pulled a nice to defend himself and

56:41

that he was shot by someone in a group

56:43

said had included swinging

56:46

two years later another woman who had been

56:48

close to swing like the police

56:50

swing they had driven and seventy

56:52

eight seventy nine monte carlo then

56:55

in april two thousand and twelve the

56:58

detectors went to the state prison in michigan

57:00

city indiana to speak with

57:02

jimmy certainly we

57:05

we was hostile when he saw the investigators

57:08

fuck you swing we said i don't care

57:10

what you want fuck off the

57:13

detectors left without interviewing

57:16

well and some recent reviews of the case

57:18

investigators win over the physical evidence

57:21

trying to determine whether scientific

57:23

advances that has happened since

57:25

nineteen eighty five could help solve

57:27

it

57:28

these killings are really unlikely to be

57:30

solved by any new methods because

57:33

the killer had left behind any dna

57:36

the murder weapon had never been found

57:38

so they really don't have much to work

57:40

no you gotta get some and to confess probably

57:43

yeah

57:51

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58:41

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the

59:45

recent interview with kimberly's father

59:47

anthony dowell he recalled

59:49

the last conversation that he had with his

59:51

daughter this was on saturday

59:53

morning before she was killed remember

59:56

he was living in indianapolis so

59:59

he was calling

59:59

checking in with her about her com

1:00:02

the same that weekend with him

1:00:04

but according to anthony dowell kimberly

1:00:06

said dad i can't something's come

1:00:09

on

1:00:10

and now believed that something was on his daughters

1:00:12

mind

1:00:13

he described

1:00:14

really as a girl who'd never got into trouble

1:00:16

was very smart and very well spoken

1:00:19

and while admitting that he had no idea who the

1:00:22

killer was

1:00:23

the hell did say he never thought the die

1:00:25

both of the song was responsible

1:00:28

he said that kimberly had always had a good

1:00:30

relationship with her stepfather though

1:00:32

they didn't seem to be

1:00:33

motive they're not sure doesn't in

1:00:37

a letter to police thanking them for their renewed

1:00:39

interest in his son's case he

1:00:41

since father described a sinister sweet

1:00:43

boy whose bright and affectionate he

1:00:46

added that ethan and kimberly would have been as

1:00:48

as to society had they live in

1:00:50

late two thousand and eighteen the detective

1:00:53

returned to the wabash valley correctional

1:00:55

facility where swimmingly was serving

1:00:57

time for killing brand in school this

1:01:01

time he had a body worn to get a sample

1:01:03

swing least dna this could be

1:01:05

compared to any dna possibly

1:01:07

collected from the leather gun holsters sound

1:01:09

anything sky the

1:01:11

detective expected swing way to do

1:01:14

the same thing tom sacasa see it

1:01:16

done in april twenty twelve

1:01:19

when the detective explained that he had a court

1:01:22

ordered warrant to collect some dna

1:01:25

we we not only agreed to give a dna

1:01:27

sample the officer down

1:01:29

for a forty minutes interview complete

1:01:32

about face swing

1:01:34

we responded to questions about the murders

1:01:36

by saying they had the wrong man he

1:01:39

said it not only had he not kill the teens

1:01:42

it was his understanding the kimberly stepfather

1:01:44

had committed a crime at

1:01:47

least they did have finally we

1:01:49

move dna which again lead nowhere

1:01:52

nowhere

1:01:53

when we see it a didn't match what

1:01:55

is likely the only piece of evidence belonging

1:01:58

to the killer of these and and kimberley the

1:02:00

gun whole sure that was found anything car

1:02:03

potential dna evidence on the whole sir

1:02:06

had didn't damage since nineteen eighty five

1:02:09

i'm detectives are still convinced

1:02:12

to this day that swing leak

1:02:14

killed east and and kimberley the

1:02:16

who really killed these kids remember

1:02:19

when police were investigating the

1:02:21

crime their attention was drawn to a monte

1:02:23

carlo

1:02:24

it was seen in the park that night

1:02:26

after the murders police worked at identifying

1:02:28

several scenarios and suspects

1:02:31

when police began investigating the crime

1:02:33

their attention was drawn to a monte carlo

1:02:36

even the park that night

1:02:38

relief it is and finding that vehicle

1:02:40

and also a second car they

1:02:42

removed the kind to sit sketch of the parents

1:02:45

driver best send descriptions from

1:02:47

witnesses

1:02:48

then police finally said they didn't

1:02:50

think the man and his vehicle had

1:02:52

anything to do with the killings so

1:02:54

there's one you can kind of scratch off the list

1:02:57

and then police also looked into

1:02:59

rumors that easing dixon had

1:03:01

recently had an argument or a fight

1:03:04

the south side muncie teenager sibley

1:03:07

at the scene of cruising by local

1:03:09

teenagers the idea that dixon

1:03:11

so threatened after the incident gave

1:03:14

an explanation for east and having a nice

1:03:16

in his car the police were unable

1:03:18

to confirm that any altercation

1:03:20

had ever happened

1:03:23

that him

1:03:24

john vulgar son kimberly dal

1:03:26

stepfather there's a focus

1:03:28

is simply surfaces early on and

1:03:30

investigation he was never charged

1:03:33

by police and he told the star

1:03:35

press and eighty ninety seven the

1:03:37

rumors hit nearly ruined his life

1:03:40

i can't imagine what it's like to for people

1:03:42

to think you killed someone and you live in

1:03:44

this town and people are looking at you sideways

1:03:47

exactly yeah that would be really

1:03:49

tough

1:03:51

one of the most frightening theories in the case

1:03:54

was that the two systems were targets

1:03:56

of a random killer who was just passing

1:03:58

through the city

1:03:59

and a lot of people were afraid of that police

1:04:02

lifted a similar incident in kansas

1:04:04

side years earlier these

1:04:06

cases weren't connected

1:04:08

though they really didn't have much to go on with

1:04:10

that theory either

1:04:12

no i reread place he turns is

1:04:14

a dead end

1:04:15

because eat and some of his friends were

1:04:17

big fans of role playing games play dungeons

1:04:20

and dragons rumors suggested

1:04:22

that the murders had been a fantasy sex

1:04:24

it out which has gone wrong

1:04:26

investigators so no legitimacy

1:04:29

to these rumors the make

1:04:31

sense

1:04:31

really know the mercy police

1:04:33

department host to the fact they

1:04:36

have not forgotten about this murder the

1:04:38

even knows thirty seven years old live

1:04:41

amongst the police department detectives who

1:04:43

led the original west side park probe

1:04:46

have retired a long time ago many

1:04:48

officers can recall participating in

1:04:51

the investigative efforts over the years

1:04:54

when mpd sergeant rent brown

1:04:56

recalled during a two thousand and fifteen

1:04:58

interview that he and other officers

1:05:01

were assigned to hide in the park on

1:05:03

september twenty eighth ninety ninety five

1:05:06

the serial killer my return home the

1:05:08

tenth anniversary of the crime

1:05:10

my you know that was alongside at best

1:05:13

brown forbid he and other officers question

1:05:15

about six people who showed up at the park

1:05:17

that night none seemed

1:05:19

or claim to know anything about ethan

1:05:21

and kimberly's murders though

1:05:24

he would estimate that there's been up to

1:05:26

a dozens

1:05:27

serious suspects over these years

1:05:29

despite all the time it's pass the west

1:05:32

side park mers are still very familiar

1:05:34

to many months a wrestler one

1:05:37

problem in the investigation has always

1:05:39

been identifying a motive

1:05:41

there was no evidence of drug use or any

1:05:43

illegal behavior

1:05:45

the teams were in a public park

1:05:47

which had been considered a very safe place

1:05:49

prior to that

1:05:51

several investigators and muncie

1:05:53

residents theorized

1:05:55

that the teens we've just in the wrong place

1:05:57

at the wrong time as if

1:05:59

you that he knew who was responsible for

1:06:01

the murders when former detective

1:06:04

said he did they can sloan

1:06:06

muncie police officer who conducted

1:06:09

an extensive investigation confirmed

1:06:11

the man he believes to be responsible

1:06:14

the to prison for another murder

1:06:16

one began his review of the west side

1:06:18

park case in february two thousand and twelve

1:06:21

during his review sloan met with

1:06:23

jimmy swing that is like

1:06:25

who person he considered the prime suspect

1:06:28

well he seems like the closest thing to

1:06:30

a suspect

1:06:30

he certainly does

1:06:32

that they don't have enough to indict

1:06:34

on that

1:06:35

delaware county prosecutor jeffrey

1:06:38

are not confirmed in an article

1:06:40

in the star press said the suspect cited

1:06:42

by sloan is incarcerated

1:06:44

for several years

1:06:45

after being convicted in an unrelated case

1:06:48

the suspect is in prison arnold said

1:06:51

hopefully they're gives the community some kind

1:06:53

of closure

1:06:55

i think it does

1:06:56

because i don't know for sure it was him

1:06:58

yeah i think and into you have

1:07:00

more definitive proof

1:07:03

that he's a killer there is

1:07:05

just a position the that way

1:07:07

we think this is the guy who did it

1:07:10

it's a cold case than indoors

1:07:13

to today the lead the best

1:07:15

anyone with information about the west side

1:07:17

park murders six

1:07:18

take the months the police department's investigation

1:07:21

division and the number is

1:07:23

sit five seven four seven

1:07:26

for a six month

1:07:49

okay so we have a little something

1:07:51

different

1:07:51

the that today yes we do

1:07:54

know what is your favorite series

1:07:56

from years ago early case

1:07:58

we did the famous the famous

1:08:00

right now as matter of fact could

1:08:03

there be us what is the

1:08:05

house here if anyone has been following

1:08:07

the michael peterson story they're likely

1:08:10

to be aware of the house years

1:08:11

yeah it's kind of become a topic

1:08:14

of discussion again because of the h

1:08:16

series the staircase yes

1:08:19

then we have a listener who's

1:08:22

very interested in it the place

1:08:24

her voice mail i

1:08:25

so i'm going to play an explanation

1:08:28

of the our theory oh by the attorney

1:08:30

leary the lives near the petersons

1:08:33

and came up with that theory the first

1:08:35

of all we're going to play the voicemail

1:08:37

i'm carrying

1:08:39

him watching the staircase at

1:08:41

the is the one with calling for and

1:08:43

i just love it i think it so

1:08:46

well then and i

1:08:48

truly

1:08:49

truly believe in the our theory

1:08:51

i really do

1:08:52

and i'm gonna send you that

1:08:54

me

1:08:54

maybe you've read it already

1:08:56

but from david rudolf make

1:08:58

peterson's lawyer website

1:09:00

about the our and if you scroll

1:09:02

down in the comments on his

1:09:04

and since he has

1:09:06

fascinating information that

1:09:09

contribute he put in so

1:09:12

anyhow i really truly believe

1:09:14

the our theory

1:09:15

karen he got cut off their

1:09:17

i guess who ran at a time but we really appreciate

1:09:20

your voice mail i really loved

1:09:22

the staircase h b o drama as

1:09:24

well and you know it's funny when

1:09:26

i watch c documentary

1:09:29

i really felt like he was

1:09:31

innocent but then the drama

1:09:33

with colin firth kind of made me think oh

1:09:36

his sister nurses this trip wire

1:09:38

in he's guilty

1:09:40

the our theory i also

1:09:42

think sounds like

1:09:43

he possible yeah i think is

1:09:45

possible to tough one

1:09:47

and the neighbor came up with

1:09:49

the theory so why don't we listened to the

1:09:51

neighbor explain the l theory and then we'll

1:09:53

talk about what peterson's former

1:09:55

attorney david rudolph had to say about

1:09:58

it as well

1:09:59

the do

1:10:02

why do i think the owl theory is

1:10:04

credible mainly

1:10:06

, it is supported by

1:10:08

great deal of people who are ornithologists

1:10:12

medical examiners examiners

1:10:14

riders of books in regard to this

1:10:16

particular case to have examined

1:10:19

my evidence and put it in a proper

1:10:21

perspective and have

1:10:24

tried to show what the

1:10:26

it happens because his real

1:10:28

specimens to look it is real

1:10:30

as posts pictures of

1:10:33

the actual photograph of

1:10:35

her hair shaft with feathers

1:10:37

wrapped around it with blood

1:10:40

hold him the feathers oh to

1:10:42

her hair ass

1:10:44

what i call what smoking further

1:10:47

and that is i believe proof

1:10:50

positive that this attack

1:10:52

was done by a bird

1:10:54

of prey is it says

1:10:57

that bird of prey the desert

1:10:59

lacerations that allows this

1:11:01

allows this so unfortunately

1:11:03

bleed to death city way in

1:11:06

mr peterson is an innocent man

1:11:09

because , doesn't qualify as a homicide

1:11:12

he qualifies as have attacked by

1:11:14

wild creatures this , as

1:11:16

is not a viking of the law

1:11:19

that he's a little something he should have

1:11:21

his innocence restored immediately

1:11:24

or at least look at it in a court of law

1:11:27

okay so i found that fascinating

1:11:30

we know every yeah

1:11:32

the our theory essentially says that

1:11:34

a barred owl see a

1:11:35

the are a d

1:11:37

the attacked kathleen that

1:11:39

tangled leader here

1:11:40

and gave her some serious injuries

1:11:43

on or skill

1:11:44

we removing part of her scalp

1:11:46

and then you know it's kind

1:11:48

of seems like a far fetched series of

1:11:50

events after that

1:11:52

it is possible that she

1:11:54

went into the house tried to go upstairs

1:11:57

and was bleeding really heavily and sell down

1:11:59

the stairs so

1:12:02

the recording by the petersons

1:12:04

neighbor larry pollard who

1:12:06

was also a friend of the petersons

1:12:09

really to a fresh look at the evidence

1:12:12

and that came about around two thousand

1:12:14

nine her i have see

1:12:16

did reveal seven lacerations including

1:12:18

some very deep sense in

1:12:20

the back of her scalp

1:12:22

a very tiny pine needles set

1:12:24

to whenever he earns which both

1:12:26

held clumps of her own hair the

1:12:28

to me that's pretty convincing

1:12:30

our discovered the strands in

1:12:33

her left hand contained three small

1:12:35

feathers

1:12:36

oh how is pollard and several ornithological

1:12:39

experts noted the pattern in shape

1:12:41

of the cuts and kathleen's had suggested

1:12:44

a weapon not at all like that blow

1:12:46

poke fireplace tool so

1:12:49

essentially pollard said that if

1:12:51

the culprit was an intruder

1:12:53

it was a bard our

1:12:54

it is a time and species around

1:12:56

durham where they lived

1:12:59

what are the most convincing things was

1:13:01

that they were two drops of blood out front

1:13:03

of the house

1:13:04

and a smear of blood on

1:13:06

the doorway

1:13:07

which couldn't confirm kathleen stumbling

1:13:09

into the hearse the staircase

1:13:12

h b o drama which showed a scenario

1:13:14

for each puff

1:13:15

the way kathleen died

1:13:17

murder the our or just falling

1:13:19

down the stairs

1:13:21

the show she's taking out her decorative

1:13:23

christmas reindeer to the front line

1:13:26

when in our attacks

1:13:28

you know what i really love and the show is whenever

1:13:30

they're outside well maybe not whenever

1:13:32

but many times when they're outside he's

1:13:35

here now

1:13:35

right yeah

1:13:37

though she goes inside tries to go up the

1:13:39

stairs for towels and or scope

1:13:41

is bleeding profusely then she could

1:13:43

have slipped in fallen down the stairs

1:13:45

except why go upstairs for towels

1:13:47

where their none in the downstairs in the kitchen

1:13:50

or anything so that's one question i had

1:13:52

about that

1:13:53

we also had a sigh read cartilage

1:13:55

injury to put has suggested

1:13:57

strangulation

1:13:59

there was no

1:13:59

the prosecution story of how carefully

1:14:02

and died what's more well

1:14:04

the injury to that cartilage was consistent

1:14:07

the strangulation her body showed no

1:14:09

other signs of being strangled investigators

1:14:12

at the time agree to the strangulation was

1:14:14

not the most likely cause of the injury though

1:14:17

her hire a loan was intact

1:14:20

there's almost always gonna be broken winners

1:14:22

manual strangulation

1:14:24

exactly yeah now the h b

1:14:26

o max version of the staircase

1:14:28

makes it pretty clear that kathleen

1:14:30

were a neck brace

1:14:32

for some time in the months leading up to

1:14:34

her death

1:14:35

there was even some speculation that the

1:14:37

neck brace was worn as a result of

1:14:39

some kind of altercation with her

1:14:41

husband

1:14:42

the real cause of kathleen's neck

1:14:45

injury was a fall into the family

1:14:47

pool which happened

1:14:48

about ninety days before her death

1:14:51

it also her neck injury was never considered

1:14:53

to be her cause of death the

1:14:55

know neck bruising and like you said the

1:14:58

highly

1:14:58

the intact

1:15:00

the drama also made a big plans

1:15:02

showing us that the peterson has had

1:15:04

bats in the attic

1:15:06

right yeah and house to eat that's

1:15:09

in

1:15:09

found that interesting because they didn't mention

1:15:11

that in the documentary at all

1:15:14

i guess you're supposed to pick that up yourself

1:15:16

i guess so

1:15:17

though work here and was referencing

1:15:20

was david rudolf online

1:15:22

discussion of the aisle theory then

1:15:24

he listed circumstantial evidence for

1:15:26

the theory in his discussion and

1:15:29

online

1:15:30

though when i go over some of that evidence

1:15:32

yeah he was in several things

1:15:34

bird else we're living in the woods by

1:15:37

the peterson house you can be

1:15:39

aggressive and dangerous they

1:15:41

have been known to attack people

1:15:43

many times

1:15:45

there are drops of blood on the outside walkway

1:15:47

leading to the front door of the house associates

1:15:50

who is photos there is a bigger

1:15:53

smear blood on the outside of the front door

1:15:55

frame also from police photos

1:15:58

at least two the wounds i care

1:15:59

when peterson scalper in the shape

1:16:02

of the talents of a bar it out you

1:16:05

can see that in the autopsy photos

1:16:07

then he goes on a tiny wounds i'm kathleen

1:16:09

space and consistent with the tip

1:16:12

of an hour speak

1:16:13

there was a feather shown on her body there's

1:16:16

a twig turn and dried blood on

1:16:18

your body there are numerous strands

1:16:20

of her hair was a roots intact

1:16:23

so that means it didn't pulled out

1:16:25

not cut out that was in the

1:16:27

dried blood on her hands her

1:16:29

head injuries were not consistent

1:16:32

with a beating by a blunt object

1:16:34

or on stare

1:16:36

the she had no brain injury no brain

1:16:38

swelling

1:16:39

the narrowly skull fracture didn't

1:16:41

have any type of bleeding and the brain

1:16:43

interesting stuff

1:16:45

yeah so i went online searching for

1:16:47

all attacks and i was surprised by how

1:16:49

much i found actually now

1:16:51

i'll admit it's not a common thing of course

1:16:53

but actually more common than you might think

1:16:56

in two thousand twenty one there

1:16:58

was actually a rash of bartels

1:17:00

attacks in atlanta georgia and

1:17:03

people gave accounts of big al's aggressively

1:17:05

chasing after them and attacking them

1:17:07

mostly runners

1:17:09

wildlife expert says it's the else can

1:17:11

see people as competitions

1:17:13

their food order

1:17:14

mating season and may attack

1:17:17

then at night they're able to hunt silently

1:17:20

and fly up right behind you you don't know what's hit

1:17:22

you the victims described

1:17:25

taxes feeling like you're being hit in the head

1:17:27

forced silly to started nowhere one

1:17:30

of the runners thought he had an aneurism

1:17:32

that had burst in his brain in

1:17:34

a few of them

1:17:35

running would helmets

1:17:37

another story i found was from christmas

1:17:39

eve two thousand and fifteen a

1:17:41

police officer had an hour fly

1:17:43

into his patrol car window

1:17:45

and attack him then he drove

1:17:48

into a ditch and the i'll finally

1:17:50

threw away but not until it

1:17:52

was in his car for forty five minutes is

1:17:54

showed no fear of the us

1:17:55

after

1:17:58

i think it's a possibility

1:18:00

now another thing i found was a youtube

1:18:02

video by todd peterson this

1:18:05

is from december twenty twenty one this

1:18:08

is michael peterson sign one of his sons

1:18:11

and this is quite shocking to me

1:18:13

if you listened way back when we did our

1:18:15

staircase episodes back when we started

1:18:18

and probably pretty much a mess

1:18:20

their from twenty six teams but i

1:18:22

was really impressed with the peterson family

1:18:25

according to tide peterson

1:18:28

the family was actually very dysfunctional

1:18:30

lot of alcoholism

1:18:32

in in the video he calls his father a

1:18:34

serial killer saying he killed

1:18:36

elizabeth ratliff the woman in

1:18:38

germany his wife kathleen peter

1:18:40

said and he also blames them for the

1:18:42

death of his mother paddy who died

1:18:44

of a heart attack while

1:18:47

she was with michael peterson now

1:18:49

was kind of mind blowing

1:18:51

the me here cause he's been her had

1:18:53

been one of his father stances defenders

1:18:55

yes bringing in money to prison and

1:18:57

everything

1:18:59

by really sad he told about

1:19:01

a history of alcoholism

1:19:03

and how his father

1:19:04

and supportive and

1:19:05

didn't really have nice things to say about

1:19:07

michael peterson

1:19:09

no

1:19:10

that's an understatement

1:19:11

you

1:19:12

it definitely in the drama i think

1:19:15

colin firth portrays him as

1:19:17

not a very nice guy very manipulative

1:19:19

day

1:19:20

maybe some of us were manipulated

1:19:23

when we watch the

1:19:25

documentary

1:19:26

because peterson actually does give

1:19:28

credit to that documentary for getting

1:19:31

a modest present

1:19:32

if you did

1:19:33

yeah seventy three persists

1:19:35

and some people might be

1:19:36

sick of this topic that i never get

1:19:38

tired of it assassinating to isn't

1:19:41

a really interesting series

1:19:44

yeah let's one of the more fascinating

1:19:46

cases we've ever covered and i can

1:19:48

see where you to draw the

1:19:50

conclusion said people have from

1:19:52

it boy is unlikely

1:19:55

the our hearing here yeah because

1:19:57

i really don't believe that kathleen new

1:19:59

about the bisexuality so that

1:20:02

could have been a motive right there

1:20:04

still pretty much a mystery i don't think anyone

1:20:06

can really say what happened and

1:20:08

less michael peterson was to say give

1:20:10

a concession but he still very adamant

1:20:13

in the latest things like

1:20:14

fine that he's not guilty of this

1:20:16

who didn't do it now

1:20:18

the any can be pretty convincing

1:20:20

the you know lot a sociopath

1:20:22

then be convincing musher can

1:20:24

yeah right

1:20:26

well thank you karen for are calling in

1:20:28

with that we devoted our whole feedback

1:20:30

segment because the there's a lotta

1:20:33

one to say about it may also thought people

1:20:35

might like to hear

1:20:35

what larry pollard had to say

1:20:38

you're supposed an interesting little

1:20:40

quote you got from of i his theory

1:20:42

entertaining and entertaining guy

1:20:45

okay well thank you everyone will

1:20:47

have more voice mails and emails

1:20:49

and our next episode thank you for

1:20:51

listening and thank you for all of your feedback

1:20:54

we really appreciate you and we'll see

1:20:56

you next day

1:20:56

we'll see the quiet and at

1:20:59

the played her

1:21:01

guys