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VTW. Avoid or prohibited by law. See terms

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and conditions. Hello campers.

1:02

Grab your marshmallows and gather around the

1:04

true crime campfire. We're your camp

1:06

counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And

1:09

we're here to tell you a true story that is

1:11

way stranger than fiction. Or roasting murderers

1:13

and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. Romantic

1:22

jealousy is, for the most part, fundamental to

1:24

the human experience. One of the uglier strands

1:26

in the tangled mess that makes up a

1:29

heart. Some people manage

1:31

to overcome it completely. Most

1:33

of us will be familiar with the occasional

1:35

hot stab of possessiveness. And

1:37

some people will let jealousy consume them like

1:39

a wildfire. If that person

1:41

is also broken in a hundred other ways, then

1:43

chances are somebody's going to get hurt. This

1:46

is You Belong With Me, the

1:48

murders of Victor Gunnarsson and Catherine Miller.

2:06

Ridge. Parkway close to the mountain

2:08

town of Boon, North Carolina. January

2:11

Seventh: Nineteen Ninety Four. Detective.

2:13

Sergeant Paula May walked through the snowy

2:16

forest. Dreading that she was about to see. It

2:19

was just after two pm, but under the cloudy

2:21

sky in the bare branches of the trees, it

2:23

was already gloomy. On the forest floor. If.

2:26

You've ever been walking in the woods after

2:28

a snow fall, you'll know how incredibly still

2:30

it can be as a whole world is

2:32

stuck in one frozen instance. A. Feeling

2:34

that can be either magical or eerie.

2:37

The only sound Sergeant May heard was the crunch

2:39

of her own boots on the snow. The.

2:41

Surveyor whose reported brought her up here hadn't

2:44

wanted to come any closer and he decided.

2:46

To hang back. What? He'd found

2:48

wear a pair of bare feet sticking out of

2:50

the snow that had drifted against a fallen pine

2:52

tree. And. Fact he'd almost stepped on

2:55

which as you can imagine, had. Freaked him out

2:57

pretty badly. Detective. May

2:59

sound the seat soon and. The.

3:01

Left one was whole but the toes of

3:03

the right one and been eaten off. Probably

3:06

buy a coyote or fox leaving only the

3:08

bones. Only. The seat were

3:10

directly visible, but a long mound under the

3:12

snow told Sergeant May there was likely a

3:14

whole adult body. Their. The. Toes

3:17

on the left foot had thick dark hair on

3:19

them, so probably a man. Sometimes

3:21

hikers lost their way and died in the deep

3:24

woods of the Blue Ridge. Mountains that no

3:26

one went out there barefoot and. The

3:28

sides It had been a bitterly cold winter.

3:30

Not exactly the best environment for exploring the

3:33

joys of nature. The. Smelled

3:35

like a homicide. The sergeant may right away

3:37

and she called in the State Bureau of

3:39

Investigation as be I. Small.

3:42

Town police departments have limited resources. In this

3:44

case was gonna. Need expert crime

3:46

scene technicians? When. The Sb I

3:48

got to. The same they carefully or of the snow

3:50

covering the rest of the body. It

3:53

was a man, a big guy with jet

3:55

black hair and a bushy mustache. And.

3:57

He was completely naked. The

4:00

past month temperatures had usually been above freezing

4:02

during the day, but well below it at

4:04

night. The. Body was part

4:07

frozen, part decomposed, Before.

4:09

The most recent snow followed covered m

4:11

small animal. Predation the taken his right ear,

4:13

his nose and one of his eyes. But.

4:16

What it killed him Or two gunshots. One.

4:19

In the neck and one in the temple. There.

4:21

Was almost nothing else at the scene besides

4:24

the naked body. Almost.

4:27

The. Body had a gold plated wristwatch and

4:29

a gold signet ring with the initials

4:31

are M R. Was investigators hoped

4:33

would make identifying the poor guy easier.

4:37

And. A few feet from the body,

4:39

they send a stick of take several

4:41

layers of electrical tape and masking tape

4:43

pressed together. There were hairs

4:45

and blood on the adhesive side and a whole

4:47

torn through one end of the tape. A

4:50

bullet hole? The. Victim's

4:52

head had been wrapped with tape covering his

4:54

eyes before he'd been some that. His.

4:57

Killer had cut the tape away, most

4:59

likely trying to remove any potentially incriminating.

5:01

Evidence but had dropped this one piece. As

5:05

the body made it's way to the medical

5:07

examiner, Sergeant May went back to Boon and

5:09

sent out details of the naked body to

5:11

law enforcement throughout the state as well as

5:13

a missing persons and thirty. The.

5:15

Body in the Woods was kind to distinctive.

5:17

But she could hardly have expected a response become

5:19

a sense, as it did. Ten.

5:21

Minutes after she got home that night, Sergeant May

5:24

get a call from the Police department and Southbury,

5:26

a small city in the middle of the state.

5:28

A couple hours. Drive away. The.

5:30

Southbury Pd had a missing person who sit

5:33

the body in the woods right down to

5:35

the mustache watch and ring. Victor.

5:37

Gunnarsson had been reported missing by

5:40

his apartment manager on December fifteenth.

5:43

When. Officers checked his apartment. they found

5:45

his car still parked outside and

5:47

his keys, wallet and passport. Lying on

5:49

a table. The. Front door

5:51

of the apartment was closed but not locked.

5:54

Salisbury. P D thought he'd been

5:56

abducted. And. There was

5:58

some serious dirt and victor gunners

6:00

and paths like global political level

6:03

dirt. In. Nineteen Eighty

6:05

Six, Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme

6:07

was assassinated shot in the back

6:09

in the street. Victor.

6:11

Was arrested and held for several days

6:13

on eyewitness testimony, but he was ultimately

6:16

release. Without being charged. But.

6:18

The damage was done. Victor.

6:20

And his family were harassed for his suppose

6:22

it association to the assassin a sense so

6:24

much so that he finally emigrated to the

6:26

United States. A train. Get some peace. Fingerprints.

6:29

From the body confirmed that it was that. A

6:32

Victor Gunnarsson. The. Autopsy showed he'd

6:34

been shot twice with twenty two caliber

6:36

ammunition with both bullet still inside his

6:39

body. Obviously having

6:41

a victim who'd been involved even

6:43

tangentially in such high levels and

6:45

and against said investigators mine spinning

6:47

and all kinds of interesting directions.

6:49

but ultimately the officer at Salisbury

6:51

Pt kind of grudgingly admitted that

6:54

something closer. To home was probably go and

6:56

on. Victor and

6:58

one of their own officers, Lc. Underwood

7:00

had been involved with the same woman.

7:03

Else he had been investigated for stalking her

7:05

and it ends up retiring from the Force

7:07

on disability. That. Wasn't a

7:09

half of it as Sergeant May found out when she

7:12

got in touch with Dawn, Gail and S B I

7:14

agent in Salisbury. He. Told

7:16

her he is investigating the murder of an

7:18

elderly lady catherine Miller to been shot to

7:20

death and her kitchen on December eight. Sergeant.

7:24

May didn't see any connection to her

7:26

own case. That is, until Agent Gail

7:28

told her that Mrs. Miller daughter K.

7:30

Weeden had been Victor gun or son's

7:32

girlfriend and K had just recently gotten

7:34

herself out of a three year relationship

7:36

than abusive, jealous. Weirdo named Lc.

7:39

Underwood. L Seats

7:41

was the main suspect and Catherine Miller's

7:43

murder. A. Quarter isn't Gail,

7:45

the officer May had spoken with previously hadn't

7:47

mention this because he was buddies with L

7:50

C N. Good ole boys looked out for

7:52

each other. Be. Careful who you

7:54

talk to on what you say. Gail told. Sergeant

7:56

makes which. Well. Isn't

7:58

that? Just wait. we wanna hear. when you're working with

8:00

law enforcement? I know, right?

8:03

Geez. And just

8:05

to fast forward here, Paula May would go on to

8:07

become Chief of Police, and after she retired, she wrote

8:09

a couple of books that ended up being our main

8:11

sources for this episode. That's where all our quotes came

8:14

from. So,

8:16

back to Elsie Underwood. Lamont

8:19

Claxton Underwood was born in Winston-Salem

8:21

in 1951, and he

8:23

had a tough childhood. That's not to excuse

8:25

anything he might have done, but bad people don't

8:27

usually spring up from nowhere, and it's useful to

8:29

know how they got the way they were. His

8:32

dad was a cliche of a 50s tough guy

8:34

with slicked-back hair and a pack of cigarettes rolled

8:36

up in his sleeve with his T-shirt. He

8:39

drank a lot and got violent when he did. Rebel

8:43

without a clue. And

8:45

his mom was no better. She didn't want to give

8:47

up party life, so a lot of the time she'd

8:49

just dump her three kids with their Uncle George while

8:51

she went out to have fun. Sometimes

8:54

she'd just leave them on a street corner and tell

8:56

them to wait. So, what

8:58

you're saying is Norman Rockwell wasn't setting up

9:00

his easel in this family's front yard. And content

9:02

on the next minute or so for some child

9:04

abuse stuff. Right. Lamont's

9:07

parents broke up when his dad caught his mom

9:09

with another guy. The kids lived with

9:11

her in her car for a while, then with their

9:13

dad for a few months until he dumped them off

9:16

on Uncle George. And pretty

9:18

soon, both parents just drifted out of their

9:20

lives. After the

9:22

chaos of their early years, a stable life with Uncle

9:24

George and Aunt Delzia might seem like a step in

9:26

the right direction, but not so

9:28

much. At least not for Lamont. Years

9:31

later, Uncle George would laughingly tell investigators

9:33

about all the ways he'd kept Lamont

9:35

under control. Like making him wear

9:38

a dress and suck on a pacifier while he

9:40

swept up the front porch, with all his friends

9:42

watching and laughing from the sidewalk. Great

9:44

job, Uncle George. Certainly

9:46

not taking notes from the whole-brain child

9:48

or peaceful parent-happy kids. Oh,

9:51

man. Discipline by humiliation. Mm-hmm.

9:54

When Lamont would start kicking and screaming, either in

9:56

rage or from a panic attack, George would tie

9:58

him up with a gun. up in a sack

10:00

until he settled down. Oh my

10:03

God. Uncle George didn't tell the

10:05

investigators everything though. They'd only learn from Lamont's

10:07

younger sister Margot that George would whip them

10:09

both with his belt holding them upside down

10:11

by their ankles while he did. He'd

10:13

make the kids stand for hours on one leg under

10:16

threat of another whipping. Jesus

10:18

Murphy. This kind of horrific environment might have

10:20

been designed to warp a child into a

10:22

dangerous violent man. Basically build a bear

10:24

for a future serial killer. Yeah,

10:27

being humiliated in women's clothes should

10:29

be added to the McDonald Triad make it a quad.

10:32

Brutus Manson Henry Lee Lucas Albright crutchly and that's

10:34

just the ones I know off the top of

10:36

my head. There are definitely more. Oh,

10:38

yeah, it comes up a lot actually. Soon

10:41

Lamont was beating his sister Margot

10:44

spitting that he hated her. He

10:46

told people he wanted to find and kill his

10:48

dad. Lamont stayed with his

10:50

aunt and uncle through the ages of three through

10:52

eight. After he began setting

10:55

fires in the attic his caseworker suggested

10:57

he be moved to an orphanage in

10:59

Winston-Salem. He got in

11:01

trouble for setting fires and being cruel to animals

11:04

that as I'm sure many of you know is

11:06

two corners of the famous McDonald Triad which has

11:08

sometimes been considered predictive of violent adult

11:11

behavior. We don't know if Lamont was

11:13

also a bed wetter past the age of six which is

11:15

the third corner, but I wouldn't be surprised. There

11:18

was a couple connected to the orphanage Barbara and

11:20

John who had a farm the kids like to

11:22

visit. Lamont met them when he

11:24

was a teen and got close to them, especially

11:26

Barbara who was just eight years older than he

11:28

was like close enough that

11:30

people thought it was weird. Lamont

11:33

sister Margot later said they had an

11:36

odd relationship. I don't know

11:38

what really went on between them if anything. Maybe

11:40

it just looked odd. For

11:42

the rest of his life Lamont would describe this woman

11:44

that he had an odd relationship

11:46

with as his mother. In

11:50

1973 Lamont who'd grown up to be a

11:52

reasonably good-looking guy met a cute young woman

11:54

named Karen at Myrtle Beach. He

11:57

and Karen who'd just gotten separated married

11:59

only three months after they met. Shockingly,

12:02

it didn't work out. They

12:04

barely talked, they barely knew each other,

12:06

and Karen soon filed for an annulment.

12:09

This was easily granted as she'd been

12:11

mistaken in thinking her previous marriage was

12:13

officially over. She was still legally married,

12:15

and so obviously hadn't really married Lamont

12:17

at all. Investigators tracked

12:20

Karen down years later. Given

12:22

what they knew about Lamont and his other

12:24

relationships, they asked if he'd ever been violent

12:26

and jealous in their brief time together. She

12:29

said no, but she seemed kind of evasive about

12:31

it. When pressed, she

12:34

still said Lamont hadn't been bad to her, but

12:36

did reveal that she'd actually thought he might be

12:38

gay. She wasn't willing to

12:40

explain that any further, like maybe he just

12:42

didn't show any interest, I don't know, but

12:44

just six months after this first marriage fizzled

12:46

out, Lamont was married again to

12:49

an 18-year-old college freshman named Brenda. We

12:52

don't know any details of his pre-marriage situationships, but

12:54

given that both times he got a ring on

12:56

it within months, I'm guessing he loved bomb the

12:59

hell out of these girls. Lamont

13:01

stayed in Winston-Salem while Brenda went to school

13:04

an hour away. She'd come back and stay

13:06

with him on weekends, but within a few

13:08

months, she was staying away on the weekends

13:10

too. She told investigators

13:12

that they drifted apart and that

13:15

she, just a teenager at the time, wanted to

13:17

stay and have fun with her friends. A

13:20

couple who were mutual friends filled out the story a

13:22

little more though. Lamont was insanely

13:24

jealous with Brenda, and more than once, they'd seen

13:26

him hit her. This

13:29

was 1974, remember, and

13:31

a lot of people would have reacted just the way their

13:33

friends did. It was none of their business. They just hoped

13:35

Brenda would get out of there soon, which she

13:37

did. The investigators

13:39

figured Brenda hadn't told them herself because

13:41

she was embarrassed, which is an unfortunately

13:43

common reaction in victims of domestic

13:46

violence. By 1976, Lamont

13:49

was a police officer in the town of

13:51

Newton and dating another college student, a girl

13:53

named Jeannie. They were only

13:55

together two months, which was more than enough for

13:57

her. Things started off great. He

14:00

was real polite, Genie recalled later, and

14:02

super neat. It

14:05

didn't take long for the bloom to come off the rose, though.

14:08

For no reason at all, he started accusing

14:10

Genie of screwing around with other men. She

14:13

came home one time and found him asleep on her couch.

14:15

She hadn't given him a key. He'd

14:17

had one made without telling her. When

14:22

she hung out with a female friend until

14:24

about 10pm, Lamont jumped out at her when

14:26

she got back to her apartment complex as parking lot,

14:28

accusing her of screwing around. In

14:30

between his ranting, Genie was able to tell him

14:33

where she'd actually been, and also that she was

14:35

breaking things off. Good for her. Then

14:37

I'll just shoot myself, Lamont said. He

14:40

climbed into Genie's empty car and drove off. Very

14:43

soon after, Genie heard a gunshot. She

14:46

ran in the direction of the shot, but couldn't find either

14:48

Lamont or her car. He

14:50

came back a couple hours later, full of apologies

14:52

and begging for forgiveness. Yeah,

14:54

don't they always? Yep, this

14:57

was the pattern in their relationship. Lamont would

14:59

do something violent and unhinged, then beg forgiveness

15:01

and warm his way back in. Once,

15:03

he broke into her apartment and waved his gun around, saying

15:05

he was going to kill her. Another

15:08

time, when they were staying in a hotel, they got

15:10

into a loud fight, and when Genie tried to leave,

15:12

Lamont threw her to the ground. A

15:14

cop was called, but he didn't stick around, just asked

15:16

if everybody was okay and left. Nice

15:18

job, man. This

15:20

bears repeating, but if your partner threatens to

15:22

hurt themselves or especially you, you should run.

15:25

The first indication of violent behavior is often

15:27

threatening violence. Yeah, and I

15:29

know we've said this before, but that threatening

15:31

suicide to get you to stay in the

15:33

relationship, that is just pure manipulation. I

15:36

get it. I have literally had this happen to

15:39

me in a relationship. I get it, because you

15:41

think I couldn't live with myself. I'm

15:43

telling you, you're being manipulated. If

15:46

somebody's doing that to get you

15:48

to stay in an abusive relationship,

15:50

you're being manipulated. Yeah, and I

15:52

think what works is,

15:55

what would you tell your best friend if this was

15:57

happening to them, and why is it acceptable

15:59

when it's happening? to you? Or is this

16:02

how you want the rest of your life to go? This

16:05

like because it's it's just not going to get better.

16:08

It's just not. Jeannie

16:12

dumped Lamont's ass yet again, but a few days

16:15

later, he showed up with a police report that

16:17

named her as being drunk and disorderly at the

16:19

hotel, threatening to show it to everyone she

16:21

knew unless she came back to him, which she refused to

16:23

do. Then he started sending her letters.

16:26

The first was all sappy pleas and promises.

16:29

Darling, I miss you and I love you so much. I

16:31

can't stand this being without you. Please

16:34

let me come back into your life. When

16:36

Jean didn't respond, she got another letter and the

16:39

tone had changed. I

16:41

have sent copies of that report to your

16:43

personnel department, your mother and sister. Now

16:46

you're going to hurt like I've been hurt, you damn

16:48

bitch. I'll run you out of

16:50

this damn town if it's the last thing I

16:52

do. I'll ruin you, Jeanie, if it's the last

16:54

thing I do. Sweet words of love. He

16:57

really knows how to pitch woo this one. Jeanie

17:01

and her family went to the chief of police.

17:03

The chief could tell right away that Lamont had

17:05

written up the police report himself. I'll

17:07

take care of it, he told them. Lamont

17:09

resigned soon after and in the paperwork, the

17:12

chief wrote that Lamont certification be reviewed.

17:15

He said he recommended against letting him serve in

17:17

law enforcement after this. If other

17:19

police departments did their due diligence for new hires,

17:21

Lamont might never be a cop again. But of

17:24

course, not every department bothered to

17:26

look that deep. That's often

17:28

the case in small towns especially, and

17:31

right after the Newton PD kicked him to the

17:33

curb, Lamont got a job as a sheriff's deputy

17:35

in the town of Lincolnton. Basically,

17:37

the sheriff took a liking to him and gave him a job.

17:41

And in some ways, Lamont was a good officer to

17:43

have. His ex-girlfriend Jeanie had

17:45

called him super neat, which barely

17:47

scratched the surface. Lamont Underwood

17:49

was super neat, like Charles Manson

17:51

was a little eccentric. This

17:57

is an aspect of Lamont's personality that was only

17:59

going to get worse. But even now,

18:01

he was obsessively clean and tidy. His

18:04

uniform was always spotless and sharply ironed, the

18:06

trailer he lived in was sparsely furnished and

18:08

every surface was so glisteningly clean you could

18:10

eat your dinner off of it. If

18:13

he was at a table where somebody put out a

18:15

cigarette and an ashtray, he'd clean the ashtray out right

18:18

away. He was

18:20

developing a serious obsessive compulsive problem, which

18:22

a lot of times comes from a

18:24

desperate need to establish control after a

18:26

chaotic childhood. It

18:29

also meant he demanded an impossible degree

18:31

of control over his romantic partners, and

18:33

there was never a shortage of those.

18:36

Lamont, who was either a psychopath or Dan Close

18:38

to the Edge, had a ton of superficial charm

18:40

at the start of a relationship. A

18:44

neat, thorough, meticulous officer is quite

18:46

a catch for a small-town department.

18:49

If it wasn't for the successive series of flaming

18:51

train wrecks that made up his personal life, Lamont

18:53

might have been able to carve out a successful

18:55

career. A couple of months

18:57

after Lamont had left Newton, P.D., his

19:00

ex-girlfriend, Jeannie, got a call from his new

19:02

partner, Patty, who wanted to know if Jeannie had

19:04

had any trouble with Lamont. Oh, that's a red

19:06

flag right there. Jeannie warned

19:08

her off, telling her Lamont was dangerous, which

19:11

Patty was already figuring out. She'd

19:13

found a list Lamont kept of people who'd done

19:15

him wrong. Jeannie's name

19:18

was on it, and Patty had wanted to let her

19:20

know. Jeannie was

19:22

scared, of course, but not surprised. Patty's

19:25

relationship with Lamont went downhill not long

19:27

after it started. She and

19:29

her girlfriends always went on a beach trip every

19:31

Easter. Lamont tried and

19:33

failed to talk her out of it, and soon

19:36

after Patty arrived at the coast, he'd called and

19:38

told her, that's it, you've abandoned me, you're not

19:40

coming back. Damn, dude.

19:44

When she came back, Lamont seemed resentful

19:46

and jealous. He liked to go

19:48

out, but didn't want to take Patty with him. Late

19:51

night was Lamont coming over to her place for

19:53

her to make dinner while he watched TV. Thank

19:56

you, no. One

19:58

time, Charlie's Angels was on the beach. And

20:00

he complained that Patty didn't look like

20:02

Jaclyn Smith which excuse the fuck outta

20:04

me for not be in one of

20:06

the most beautiful women in Hollywood. Z's

20:08

low for the kids to for it

20:11

can imagine. Only get out of my

20:13

how young ladies Ackland Smith is that

20:15

the flippant is standard. Pleased though. Because.

20:17

I'm with gorgeous I don't wanna

20:20

our appearance him but. This.

20:22

Man. I know. I

20:24

mean come on, come on, do you fear

20:26

no oil painting yourself a little different circumstances.

20:28

Sussex like a series that like it's as

20:31

it's as while. But a man like that

20:33

would be like you should look like Jaclyn

20:35

Smith. I could pull Jaclyn Smith know you

20:37

The horses. At set up. He

20:41

criticized. Her clothes they weren't sexy enough

20:43

or they were too sexy depending on what

20:45

kind of shitty mood he was in on

20:47

any given day. He get mad because she

20:49

didn't have cigarettes in her apartment. Patty.

20:52

Didn't smoke, but he was supposed to keep

20:54

in a supply just for him. At

20:57

Christmas he wined and begged until she

20:59

bought him a hundred and fifty dollar.

21:01

done. about eight hundred bucks in today's

21:03

money. He. Got her a

21:05

twenty dollar blender and nothing else. I'm

21:08

surprised he didn't seven dick and balls and it

21:10

and hit pulse. For

21:14

pure if is. Gonna.

21:17

Shoot A. Twenty. Dollar Blender.

21:20

One. Time they went to dinner at a

21:23

friend's place and muscles handed out beers to

21:25

everybody and Patty didn't drink, but she took

21:27

the beer out of politeness. Lamont.

21:29

Pulled it out of her hands straight away

21:31

and said slut straight loud enough for everyone

21:34

to hear. Lovely. Eventually.

21:37

Patty managed to break off her emotionally

21:39

and physically abusive relationship with a month.

21:42

Then. He started stalking her and making

21:44

threatening phone calls. Some of

21:46

the other cops told him to knock it

21:49

off, but they're intervention Didn't go much further

21:51

than that. Not even when he spray painted

21:53

Paddy is a whore in read on the

21:55

side of her church. Lovely.

21:59

Evening. In 1979, a long

22:01

time after she dumped Lamont, a guy asked Patty

22:03

out. She liked him, but she

22:05

was still scared of Lamont, so she arranged for the guy

22:07

to pick her up at a friend's place. After

22:10

dinner, her date drove her back to her friend's

22:12

house, and from there, Patty drove home. She

22:15

had tried to be careful, but it hadn't

22:17

happened. As soon as she stopped her

22:19

car, Lamont was right there, yanking

22:21

open the car door and grabbing her shirt. He

22:24

called her a slut and a stupid bitch and

22:26

forced her into the apartment, where he smashed a

22:29

potted plant over her head and screamed at her

22:31

as he pushed her to the floor. He

22:34

straddled Patty and choked her until she started

22:36

blacking out. Then he'd

22:38

let up until she was alert again, and

22:40

straight away, choked her again until she almost

22:42

blacked out again and again. There's

22:45

no record of Lamont trying this stuff with

22:48

anybody else before, but he had to have,

22:50

right? I mean, that's a well-practiced

22:52

move. We know quite a

22:54

lot from interviews with his exes, but that's not all

22:56

of his life. In particular,

22:58

he fits the profile of someone who would abuse

23:00

sex workers to a tee, but we don't know anything

23:02

about that. I'm just saying, I have some suspicions.

23:06

Because this guy fits that serial

23:08

offender profile real close.

23:12

Eventually, Lamont took out his revolver and

23:14

pressed the barrel between Patty's eyes. Bitch,

23:17

you're gonna die, he said. He

23:20

kept the gun there and made Patty tell him

23:22

about her date, then said that

23:24

Patty's friend was a fat-ass bitch who he hated.

23:27

He'd never met her. Eventually,

23:29

Lamont holstered his gun and stood up. When

23:32

Patty tried to get up, he beat her with

23:34

a wooden chair and punched her, then told her

23:37

he'd be riding along with another officer all night

23:39

and would hear over the radio if she called

23:41

the police. Then he'd come

23:43

and kill her. Can you frickin' imagine? Patty

23:47

believed Lamont would make good on his threats

23:49

and never called the cops, but she checked

23:51

herself into the hospital the next day, and

23:53

the medical records of her injuries match her

23:55

description of what happened to her. The

23:57

thing that really sucks about that is

23:59

that so often and I have to say I

24:01

have a lot of respect for prosecutors but I have

24:04

seen prosecutors do this shit where they'll say well there

24:06

was no like if a woman kills her husband and

24:08

the prosecutor is prosecuting the woman for killing her

24:10

husband and the woman part of the defense will

24:13

be well I was abused or whatever and the

24:15

prosecutor will say well did you ever file a

24:17

police report that's a shitty question okay whether that

24:19

particular woman is innocent or guilty lying

24:22

or not that we need

24:24

to shut that question down because the

24:26

vast majority of the time there's not

24:28

gonna be a police report no for

24:30

the many reasons we've discussed a thousand

24:32

times on this show people don't report

24:34

it so that's

24:36

just complete ignorance to say that yeah that's

24:38

like asking what were you wearing like it

24:41

is it is and prosecutors in particular drives

24:43

me crazy cuz they know better they like

24:45

stop it don't do systemic damage just because

24:48

you're trying to win your case that's gross

24:52

when Patty went back to work in a few

24:54

days she wore sunglasses and turtlenecks to try and

24:56

hide her black eye and bruising nobody

24:58

was fooled her dad certainly wasn't

25:01

and went to see Sheriff Harvin Krauss who

25:03

said he'd deal with Lamont dealing

25:06

with him to Krauss who was about as

25:08

shitty as sheriff as you can possibly imagine

25:10

meant giving Lamont a stern talking to and

25:12

making him promise to never do it again

25:14

pinky swear pinky pinky swear

25:16

you won't threaten to murder a woman

25:18

oh it's building

25:23

it's building Whitney my rage

25:25

for eating shockingly

25:27

this finger wagging didn't work Lamont

25:30

kept showing up at Patty's apartment and getting

25:32

mad when she'd flinch away from him he

25:34

said he wouldn't let her break up with him because

25:37

then people would think there was something wrong with him

25:41

now this is this is

25:44

bad bitch level like

25:47

uno reverse card she said he could just tell

25:49

everyone that he'd broken up with her and sure

25:52

yeah yeah and that was all it

25:54

took to finally get him out of her life a

25:57

promise to protect his delicate little ego

26:00

Ugh, pathetic. Lamont's

26:03

next two relationships started with the

26:05

same pattern. A polite, well-spoken gentleman

26:07

at first, who quickly became a

26:09

violent nightmare. His behavior was

26:11

a carbon copy of his time with Patty, all

26:13

the way down to holding a gun at a

26:15

one woman's forehead, calling the other

26:17

a whore in bright red spray paint,

26:19

and buying cheap blenders for them for

26:22

Christmas. Seriously,

26:25

Lamont bought so many girlfriends cheap ass

26:28

blenders, he must have owned stock in

26:30

KitchenAid. It's like he settled

26:32

on that, that's the gift. That's

26:34

a woman gift. It's like a

26:36

step above a vacuum, you know,

26:38

except a vacuum would be more

26:40

expensive. A vacuum would be better,

26:42

I know. Like, you can get this

26:44

shit at the 7-Eleven on your way home.

26:47

Yeah, it's the, they

26:49

know the words, but not

26:52

the music, music not the words. It's

26:54

just, he just didn't get it. He was like,

26:56

this is an acceptable gift. What the fuck? In

26:59

1982, he met a woman named Marsha, and within

27:01

five months they were married and moving back to

27:03

her hometown of Salisbury. In

27:05

some ways, they were a good match, partly because

27:08

Marsha was kind of timid and took care to

27:10

not press Lamont's buttons. Although

27:12

by this time, he had started calling himself Elsie,

27:15

apparently unaware that it made him sound like

27:17

the Borden mascot. You know, the cow?

27:19

Hey, Elsie! I

27:24

can't not say it that way either, Elsie. I know,

27:26

it really is actually hard not to say it like

27:28

Elsie. Another

27:31

way that Marsha was a good match for him was

27:33

that Marsha was a nurse who worked second shift at

27:35

the local hospital, and they didn't see each other

27:38

much. She says he was

27:40

never violent towards her, but that he did enjoy belittling

27:42

her in public. Their marriage limped

27:44

along for years, getting steadily worse. They'd

27:47

ultimately get divorced in 1993, but they separated years before.

27:51

Elsie had been

27:53

cheating on her with multiple women toward the end

27:55

of their marriage, but by then, Marsha didn't care.

27:57

She just hoped one of those relationships would be

27:59

better. turned serious so she could get out of

28:01

that marriage easier. Sometime

28:04

in 1990, a colleague of Elsie's introduced

28:06

him to his neighbor, Kay Weeden, a

28:08

pretty blonde divorcee who'd just moved back

28:11

to North Carolina with her teenage son.

28:14

Kay was bright and funny. She taught

28:16

English and drama at the local high school. Elsie

28:19

liked what he saw and turned on the charm. As

28:22

he had with every woman he'd dated, he

28:25

started off charming and polite. Silverous,

28:27

even. He'd take her to nice

28:29

restaurants and pull out the chair for her. And

28:31

he was always well dressed and neat. His

28:34

home was neat too. Really,

28:36

really neat. When

28:39

Kay would visit and walk over the plush

28:41

carpet to the couch, Elsie would jump up

28:43

and vacuum her footprints away. At

28:47

first, Kay initially found stuff like this

28:49

oddly charming. That didn't last.

28:52

Yeah, I think I want to smack him day one

28:54

for that though. It's like

28:57

my mere presence is felt to him.

28:59

No thanks. Yeah.

29:02

Before long, they were dating exclusively. As

29:04

usual, once Elsie got his hooks into a

29:06

partner, he felt more comfortable showing his ass.

29:09

He got possessive and was jealous of any

29:11

time Kay spent with her friends. Was even

29:13

jealous of her son, Jason, complaining that he

29:15

was second best, which… Yeah.

29:18

Uh huh. Correct. She

29:22

wanted Kay to be with him all the time, and

29:24

he wanted her to want the same, just with him.

29:27

No one else at all, not even

29:29

her son. Kay tried to tell

29:31

Elsie that she needed some space of her own

29:33

and that it didn't mean she didn't care about him. He

29:36

yelled at her, a relationship is not about being

29:38

a part. She tried

29:40

to break up with him a couple of times.

29:50

He tried to break up with him a couple of

29:52

times, but he begged and promised and told her about

29:54

his terrible childhood, and his childhood was terrible. But he

29:56

pulled this card out every time a woman tried to

29:59

break up with him. break up with

30:01

him, converting his trauma directly into

30:03

manipulation called trauma bonding. After

30:08

her divorce, Kay was kind of insecure

30:10

about relationships and always let herself be

30:12

talked into staying with Elsie, despite

30:15

her instincts telling her to get the hell out.

30:18

Kay's mom, Catherine, never thought Elsie was a good

30:20

match for her daughter, but she was a classy

30:22

lady and was always kind to him. But

30:25

Kay remembered that one time Catherine had

30:27

mildly scolded him for something and Elsie

30:29

had just put his hands over his

30:31

eyes and sat there silently. It

30:34

was just bizarre. In

30:36

the summer of 1992, Elsie had been good

30:38

to Kay for weeks. Maybe

30:40

he'd come to terms with his insecurities. Maybe

30:43

they were starting on a really healthy relationship.

30:46

He took her up for a weekend in the Blue

30:48

Ridge Mountains, driving easily around the winding country roads

30:50

without ever looking at a map. He

30:53

knew the area well. Victor Gunnerson's

30:55

body would be found right around him. On

30:58

that trip, Elsie asked Kay to marry him and

31:01

she said yes. But

31:03

having apparently locked her down, he went back

31:05

to his normal, whining, jealous ways. Within

31:08

weeks of them getting engaged, Kay gave him his

31:10

ring back and broke things off. But

31:12

Elsie wasn't just going to accept that. From

31:15

then on, he described Kay as his

31:17

fiance. In

31:20

October, Kay went out on a nice, easy dinner

31:22

date with a guy named Johnny. When

31:25

he drove her home, Elsie's car was in her

31:27

driveway and as Johnny pulled in, Elsie got out

31:29

and started toward them. Back up, back

31:32

up, Kay said. She'd already started

31:34

shaking. Let's go. She

31:36

had Johnny take her to a friend's place, then called

31:38

Jason at home and told him to lock the doors

31:41

because Elsie was outside. Jason,

31:43

who was 15 by this time, told

31:45

her he would, but that neither he nor

31:47

the exchange students staying with him were scared

31:49

of Elsie Underwood. Kid, he's

31:51

a crazy cop with a gun, honey. They should be

31:53

scared of him. Like

31:56

I said, Jason was 15. Kay

31:58

Spent the night at her friend's place. It's been called Jason

32:00

first thing in the morning to tell him she was coming

32:02

home. Hello! Said the voice

32:05

that picked up the phone. It was

32:07

Lc. He'd. Broken into the

32:09

house in the night without the boys knowing

32:11

and just sat there waiting. For Gay movement

32:13

with Us. He

32:15

was gone when K got home. So. Was

32:18

her driver's license and some mail that had been

32:20

sitting on a countertop. And. Yet

32:22

somehow he worked his way back

32:24

into her life. please. And promises

32:26

and expressions of regret. I

32:29

mean K had a two year relationship. With the guy,

32:31

she cared about him. and right now she was

32:33

worried about him. She thought he might

32:35

hurt himself again as a powerful weapon.

32:39

And. Just sister out some dime store

32:41

psychology here. This is probably exactly what

32:43

else he really wanted. Not a romantic

32:45

partner, but an ever present caregiver. He.

32:48

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35:19

got depressed as the holiday season approached.

35:21

Kay invited him to Thanksgiving at her

35:23

mom's place. Your mom hates me, Elsie

35:26

said. She didn't hate him.

35:28

She should have hated him, but Catherine Miller just

35:30

thought Elsie wasn't the right guy for her daughter. On

35:33

Thanksgiving morning, Kay and Jason went to pick

35:36

Elsie up. He didn't answer the

35:38

door, but both his cars were in the driveway. Worried,

35:41

Kay let herself in with the key he'd given her.

35:44

They found Elsie in his bedroom asleep.

35:47

So deeply asleep that Kay couldn't wake him up.

35:51

Kay turned on MTV and put the volume

35:53

up because Elsie hated MTV. Of course he

35:55

freaking did. After

35:58

a couple minutes, he opened his eyes. Get

36:00

out, he said, his voice like ace. Kay

36:04

said she wasn't going to leave until she knew he was okay.

36:07

Still laying down, Elsie reached into his nightstand

36:10

and took out a gun. I

36:12

said, Get out. Get out or

36:14

I'm calling the police. You broke in

36:16

here. I will call the police. He

36:19

didn't seem to recognize her. He

36:22

also didn't seem to know Jason was in the room. When

36:25

the kid cleared his throat, Elsie pointed the gun

36:27

right at him. Kay

36:29

told Jason to get out and drive home. She

36:33

somewhere on the spectrum between brave and terrible

36:35

decision making was going to stay there and

36:37

try to stop Elsie if he tried to

36:39

shoot himself. It was her

36:41

heart. She stayed there

36:43

and tried to talk to him. He

36:45

barely responded to her. Eventually

36:48

she left. Elsie

36:50

called a couple of days later and apologized for

36:52

being so weird. It's the medicine

36:54

I was prescribed for my back pain, he said. Elsie

36:57

had theoretically sustained a back injury while on

36:59

duty, one of those convenient work injuries that,

37:01

for example, didn't stop him from going out

37:03

to clubs and dancing. Certainly

37:06

his pain meds were not going to send him into

37:08

a fugue state where he didn't recognize two people he

37:10

knew really well. Investigators

37:13

think, and I agree, that he faked the

37:15

whole thing. That he was fully awake and

37:17

aware the whole time. And that

37:19

he did it both to manipulate Kay into worrying

37:21

about him even more and to have a big

37:24

dramatic scene so he'd be the center of attention

37:26

on Thanksgiving. Because Kay

37:28

spending time with her mother and her son

37:30

was just unacceptable. He should come first.

37:33

People like him always ruin holidays and

37:36

any kind of event. It's

37:38

just what they do. There's

37:42

always a big dramatic happening on a

37:44

holiday. You don't need to

37:46

put up with that. I'm just saying. You don't got to.

37:48

It's like, how can I make this about me? Right.

37:51

They can't stand. They cannot stand

37:53

a day that isn't directly about

37:55

them. So if it's Christmas, God

37:58

forbid. Somebody's christening, God. How

38:00

dare you? How dare you? About

38:03

a month later, Kay's toaster stopped working. Elsie

38:06

said, you can have mine. I never use it anyway. So

38:09

fine. Kay took his toaster and tossed her old one.

38:12

A few weeks later, late on a freezing

38:14

cold winter night, there was a knock on

38:16

Kay's door. It was Elsie, disheveled for the

38:18

first time Kay had ever seen. He

38:20

had on jeans, bathroom slippers, and a

38:22

foodstained sweatshirt. I want a

38:24

toaster, he said. Kay said, uh,

38:27

what? I came to get my

38:29

damn toaster. Now give it to me. So,

38:31

okay. So Kay unplugged the damn

38:33

toaster and handed it to him. He

38:35

took it like it was the Pulp Fiction briefcase and walked

38:37

out. God,

38:40

that's so disturbing. I

38:43

think, I can't imagine him eating toast. Like

38:45

imagining crumbs in the toaster, I think would

38:47

send him over the edge. I

38:49

guarantee you, there were no crumbs on that man's

38:52

countertop. Not one.

38:54

He probably looked at it with a microscope every

38:56

morning, magnifying glass, making sure there

38:59

was no crumbs. Not

39:01

long after, because of his supposed back

39:04

problem, Salisbury's PD assigned Elsie as the

39:06

school resource officer at Salisbury High, which

39:08

is terrifying. In

39:12

March 1993, there was an unusual

39:14

cold snap and snowfall. Before driving to

39:16

work, Kay wanted to warm the car up, so she went out

39:18

to the garage and pulled up the door. Her

39:20

house didn't have a powered garage door opener. When

39:23

she turned back to her car, she gasped. She

39:26

had spray painted insults all over her

39:28

Honda in bright red, whore, and slut,

39:30

and others. The panels on her doors

39:33

had been kicked in. She's

39:36

shaking. Kay hurried inside and called the police,

39:38

who started a deputy over to the house. She

39:41

also called Elsie. Elsie

39:43

arrived at the same time as the deputy. It

39:46

looks like the work of juveniles, he said. The

39:48

deputy agreed, said it might have been one of her

39:50

high school students. Kay must have

39:52

left her garage door unlatched. Yeah, I

39:54

have to say it is very juvenile. Yeah,

39:56

yeah. Yeah, shocking.

40:00

Elsie promised he'd take care of everything. Kay

40:03

leaned in and rested her head on his shoulder, and

40:05

he squeezed her tight against him. It

40:08

wasn't until they'd left that Kay pulled down the

40:10

garage door and saw that it had also been

40:12

sprayed. The message there was,

40:15

Jason is a gay slur. This

40:18

was just the beginning. Kay's house was

40:20

egged. Right after she'd fixed up her

40:23

Honda, it was keyed. Then she

40:25

got a long letter threatening Jason, basically saying he

40:27

was going to get his ass kicked for being

40:29

too popular at the high school. What

40:32

the hell? That's

40:37

something I've never heard. That's a new

40:39

one. Yeah, that's like that girl. Remember

40:42

what case was it where the woman was like,

40:44

everybody hates me because I'm too pretty. Everyone

40:47

hates me because my ass is too fat,

40:50

my hair is too good, my

40:52

face is too pretty, everyone's just so

40:54

jealous. Like, what? It

40:58

was supposedly from a classmate, but Kay, as a

41:00

high school English teacher, had read more teenage writing

41:02

than anyone should have to, and this read more

41:04

like the work of an adult. The

41:08

letter also said, we bet he didn't

41:10

know that his house was shot at over the weekend, so

41:12

you might want to look for bullet holes. Sure

41:15

enough, there was a small 22 caliber bullet

41:17

hole in the siding and wall outside Jason's

41:19

bedroom. The bullet had wound up in

41:21

the dresser. Oh damn. What

41:25

made this especially scary was that Jason and

41:27

Kay had just rearranged his bedroom. He had

41:29

an injury from his soccer team and his

41:31

coach had suggested that a water bed might

41:34

help him recover. Okay, I

41:36

do not want to detract from the terror of

41:38

this because holy fucking shit. But

41:40

that really is the most 90s advice

41:42

ever. You're hurt.

41:44

Get a water bed. I

41:47

gotta say, I'm a fan of the water bed. I had one

41:49

for a while, it was really nice, especially because you could heat

41:52

up the water in it in the winter. It was just oh,

41:54

oh, oh, oh. Yeah, I have no

41:56

beef with water beds. They've always been very comfortable.

41:58

They're just hideous. having hideous look at.

42:00

It's hideous to look at. And hideous to take care

42:02

of. Yeah, you have a large body

42:05

of water in your house at all

42:07

times, seems not like a great idea. And my

42:09

cats would poke

42:12

holes for sure. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they would pop that

42:14

thing for sure like a balloon. And I

42:16

know this is a detour, but also, if you're an

42:18

arachnophobe, don't listen to the next 30 seconds

42:21

or so, but I remember hearing a story

42:23

once about a woman who was feeling really

42:25

sick and run down for a while and

42:27

couldn't figure out why her doctor thought she

42:29

might even have like lupus or Lyme disease

42:31

or something, because she was just horribly

42:34

sick and she had these like weird rashes

42:36

and everything. And

42:38

eventually, oh my God, she was

42:40

moving and she was dismantling

42:42

her water bed. And there were like

42:44

dozens of proud recluse spiders

42:46

living underneath it. And they

42:48

were fighting her. Oh,

42:51

God, just that's like the worst story I've ever heard

42:53

in my life. Like, and I'm a true crime

42:55

aficionado. That's the worst story. You have

42:57

arachnophobia to be fair. I

43:00

do, I'm very repulsed by spiders, but

43:02

geez Louise, even if you're not, like,

43:04

God, that is just horrifying. Anyway, so

43:07

they had just put in this water bed a few

43:10

days ago. And if Jason's bedroom had

43:12

still been in its old configuration, like

43:14

the furniture, how it was, the bullet

43:16

would have come through right about where

43:18

his head would have been when

43:20

he was sleeping. Ugh. Yikes,

43:22

yeah. So Kay called

43:24

the police again, which was getting to feel

43:27

like an almost daily occurrence. LC

43:29

said the deputies they sent over were idiots. She

43:31

should just rely on him to take care

43:33

of things. The next night,

43:35

Kay got a call. "'Til your gazeler

43:38

son, I want my $2,000," said

43:40

a gruff male voice. "'For what,'

43:42

Kay said. "'For drugs. "'Til your

43:45

gazeler boyfriend cop, we were there, "'but he

43:47

just didn't catch us.'" LC

43:50

was also apparently a target for the

43:52

people harassing Kay and Jason. His

43:54

house had also been egged. He'd gotten

43:57

calls about Jason dealing drugs, and he

43:59

offhandedly mentioned people had shot at his house

44:01

from a passing car. Kay

44:03

was astonished. You had a drive by shooting

44:05

at your house? Elsie

44:08

just shrugged it off and never mentioned

44:10

it again. A couple days later, Kay

44:12

got another much briefer note. Rose

44:15

are red, violets are blue. We are

44:17

going to fuck Jason and your

44:19

house too. Oh god,

44:22

I sweat myself a little. That's terrifying. This

44:25

time, Kay didn't turn to Elsie. She

44:27

called her mom. This

44:29

was the first Catherine had heard about the harassment.

44:31

Kay hadn't wanted to worry her. Catherine,

44:34

right away, ponied up $4,000 for a private

44:37

security firm to watch Kay's house for 10

44:40

days. No further incidents

44:42

happened during that time. Kay,

44:44

of course, had told Elsie the security people

44:46

would be there. It hadn't

44:48

crossed her mind that Elsie could be behind

44:50

the harassment, but it had certainly crossed

44:52

the minds of the officers investigating the

44:54

case, who were not nearly as dumb

44:57

as Elsie thought they were. Soon,

45:00

they told Kay that Elsie was their prime

45:02

suspect and that he'd been suspended while the

45:04

investigation was going on. Kay

45:06

didn't believe it at first, but slowly

45:08

and with encouragement from her mom, she cut

45:10

Elsie out of her life. He

45:13

kept calling her one time just before 1

45:15

a.m. What time did you

45:17

get home, Kay? About 1130,

45:19

Elsie. Can I come over? He

45:21

said. Now? No. Why

45:24

not? Because I'm wet, cold,

45:26

and tired, Kay said. We can talk tomorrow.

45:29

You won't live till tomorrow, Elsie said

45:31

and hung up. Kay

45:34

locked all the windows and stayed awake as long as

45:36

she could. She didn't call the

45:39

police because she didn't think they'd take her seriously.

45:42

She had good reason for that. Her

45:44

next-door neighbor happened to be Elsie's watch commander,

45:46

and whenever she'd complained about him, he'd just

45:48

shake his head and say, that's not the

45:50

Elsie Underwood I know. Maybe

45:54

that's because you haven't had to date him, asshole.

45:56

Really? This

46:00

is the credible said. makes it so much harder.

46:02

For women to come forward with abuse are you. Fucking

46:04

kidding and watch commander like he sounds

46:06

like a frat. Guy his buddy just got

46:08

charged with assault. In fact, I witness at my

46:11

school. Where somebody was like at my

46:13

university. Where? Where? Somebody came forward and everyone

46:15

was like whoa he such a nice guy.

46:18

Like God. Whose. Own

46:20

period one. Spouse,

46:23

the cops are abused a high rates and

46:25

civilian couples, and the absolutely staggering level of

46:28

protection these fucking bozos offer each other is

46:30

why it's so pervasive that if you're like

46:32

this, go fuck yourself. Yeah and

46:34

also way to serve and protect the other

46:36

job. The. You since

46:38

you're eating. Ah,

46:41

so in November, K went out on a

46:43

date with a guy called David that she'd

46:45

met through a dating service and they were

46:47

having a nice dinner when L C. suddenly

46:49

appeared at their table and started talking quietly

46:52

to K. David. Couldn't hear

46:54

what they were saying. This case report is

46:56

no no no. Then.

46:59

L. C. turn to him and said I'll kill

47:01

you boy. He. Picked up case

47:03

glass of iced tea and poured it straight

47:05

into her lap. Than. Walked out.

47:07

Man. Farmer that due

47:10

to think I'd be tempted to amount but

47:12

I mean it was wise of him not

47:14

to. David drove K home and never falter

47:16

again. At her mom's

47:19

suggests and K complained about Lc to the

47:21

Chief of Police. All. He did

47:23

was say i'm sorry to hear that and I

47:25

hate to hear that but he didn't do anything.

47:28

And this was bullshit. Stalking had been

47:30

a crime in North Carolina since Nineteen

47:32

Ninety, and Elsie's as. Should have been and sell.

47:36

The. Exchange student living with K and Jason

47:38

was a Danish kid cosmic a. Friend

47:41

of case Tanah suggested came meet the

47:43

sweetest guy. See new victor. Swedish.

47:46

And Dana's are similar in of languages that

47:48

they're mutually understandable. And case friend thought Nickel

47:50

might appreciate meeting someone a good talk to

47:52

in his native language. I'm

47:55

guessing she was also trying to set chaos because

47:57

Victor turned out to be a good looking. charmer

47:59

of a guy He got along

48:01

well with the boys, and he and Kay hit it

48:03

off immediately. They hung out

48:05

a lot. He'd come over to cook spaghetti

48:07

for everybody, all very platonic and very obviously

48:09

moving towards something that wasn't. On

48:12

December 3rd, Kay and Victor went out for dinner

48:14

with Kay's mom. Afterwards,

48:17

Catherine told Kay she liked Victor, but

48:19

that he did tend to talk over Kay, and

48:21

also he hadn't made any effort to pick up

48:23

the check after he saw Catherine reach for her

48:25

first, so he wasn't perfect in mom's eyes, but

48:27

definitely a step in the right direction. Victor

48:31

came over to Kay's later and they talked for a

48:33

while, then kissed, then moved to the bedroom. Kay

48:35

lit some candles and they went to bed. Outside

48:39

in his Monte Carlo, Elsie watched, his

48:41

brain boiling over. He

48:43

knew what it meant when Kay lit candles in her

48:45

bedroom. He knew what they were

48:47

doing. He was fuming. Later

48:50

Jason came home with some of his friends and everyone

48:52

hung out around the fire put out back. After

48:54

Victor left, Jason told his mom that he seemed

48:57

cool. The next morning, Kay was

48:59

happy. She waited for Victor to call

49:01

like he said he would and waited.

49:04

He never called. She never heard from him

49:06

again. No one did. Kay

49:10

was hesitant to be the first to call. She didn't

49:12

want to seem pushy or desperate, but after a couple

49:15

of days, she figured she had an excuse. She

49:17

was going to get a Christmas tree and wanted to ask Victor

49:20

for help, but she just got his machine,

49:22

so she went with her friend Tana to get the tree. On

49:26

the way back, they swung by Victor's apartment to check on him.

49:29

His car was still there and his door was a little bit of

49:31

ajar. Tana said he

49:33

was probably just hanging out with a friend. Kay

49:36

worried this was a female friend, that Victor had gotten what

49:38

he wanted from her and was moving on to someone else.

49:42

When Kay got home, Elsie called her. Kay,

49:45

I'm going to come pick you up at 7 o'clock this

49:47

evening. I'm going to bring you back over here and I'm

49:49

going to make love to you. We are going to get

49:51

this relationship back on track, the way it should be. Kay

49:55

said she couldn't see him. She had too much to do.

49:59

We've been apart long enough. Elsie said. You've had

50:01

your time alone. K hung

50:03

up, but called him later on to make sure he wouldn't

50:05

just show up at seven. How

50:07

does your mother like your new boyfriend? Elsie spat over

50:09

the phone. She liked him okay, K

50:11

said. At the time, she

50:13

didn't think, wait, how did Elsie

50:15

know anything about Victor, especially that he'd met

50:18

her mom? They

50:20

fought over the phone for a while until K hung

50:22

up. He called back the next night

50:24

when K was getting ready to go out with some

50:27

girlfriends for a birthday dinner, and when she was explaining

50:29

where she was going, she told him which restaurant. The

50:32

ladies were having a fun night at the restaurant when

50:34

Elsie walked in, with a sexy red head

50:36

on his arm. K assumed this

50:38

was Kim. Kim was someone Elsie

50:40

had made a point of telling K about an

50:43

attractive woman who was just begging Elsie to go

50:45

out with her. Because,

50:48

you know, hot girls were always just

50:50

throwing themselves at Elsie. And if

50:52

K wasn't careful, one of them would just scoop

50:54

him up. Oh,

50:57

please, no, don't. Kim,

50:59

of course, was imaginary. The woman on Elsie's

51:01

arm was a friend of a friend that

51:03

he was paying to go

51:05

out to dinner and act all flirty with him. You

51:09

could fill a sack with puppy's tears,

51:11

and that still wouldn't be as sad of

51:13

a sack as Elsie Underwood. Paying

51:17

a woman to go on a

51:19

date to make your ex jealous. Oh,

51:22

lord, the level of cringe is off

51:24

the charts. He pointedly ignored K,

51:26

and she did her best to ignore him,

51:28

moving a flower arrangement on the table so it blocked

51:31

her view of him. She

51:34

didn't care if he was seeing someone else. It'd be

51:36

a relief. But she knew he'd come to

51:38

that restaurant just to try and ruin her night. A

51:41

couple days later, she got a long rambling

51:43

letter from him, professing his love, begging her

51:45

to come back to him. He

51:48

even gave Kim a speaking role. Kim

51:51

looked at me and she looked over at you and

51:53

then she said, you both love each other, and I

51:55

can tell you both want your arms around each other,

51:57

so don't be stupid. I'll

52:00

take things that never happened for 500. That's

52:02

how, that's definitely how women speak. That's for

52:05

sure, not just like a fantasy in his

52:07

head. Kay

52:09

didn't respond to the letter. Elsie

52:11

soon called her. Kay, you are

52:14

forcing me to make a life with Kim, he said.

52:16

I'm not forcing you to do anything, Elsie,

52:19

Kay said. I don't want that girl, I

52:21

want you, Elsie said. But I'm just

52:23

gonna have to go on. Do it then,

52:25

Kay said and hung up. He

52:28

called later and asked Kay what she was doing.

52:30

She said she was making dinner and watching TV.

52:33

He wanted to know what she was watching. She

52:35

told him unsolved mysteries. Ooh, good choice, girl. Having

52:39

satisfied himself that she was staying in all

52:41

night, Elsie let her go, which was weird.

52:43

Usually getting off the phone with him was like trying to get

52:46

out of a bear trap. And

52:48

the next day, Kay's world fell to pieces.

52:51

On December 9th, she was teaching when two

52:54

of her mom's co-workers came together. What's

52:57

wrong? Kay said, her heart already sinking.

53:00

Her mom's boss told her Catherine hadn't come into

53:02

work or called that morning, which she never did.

53:05

The sheriff's department were on their way to her house. They

53:09

drove Kay to her mom's house. Her mind

53:11

was spinning. Her mom was in good

53:13

health, but she was 77 years old

53:15

and lived alone. Any number of bad

53:17

things could have happened. Deputies

53:20

were already at Catherine Miller's house when

53:22

they arrived. They asked if Kay had a

53:24

key. She said she had one at

53:26

her own place just up the street. A

53:29

deputy drove her there. Kay grabbed the key and

53:31

they hurried back. As she

53:33

went to the door, Kay noticed the storm door

53:35

was unlocked. Her mom only did that

53:37

as she knew the person on the other side. With

53:40

shaking hands, she tried to unlock the door, but

53:42

the key wouldn't fit. In her

53:45

panic, Kay had picked up her own spare house

53:47

key, not her mom's. Just forced the door, she

53:49

said. Deputy Chad

53:51

Moose, excellent cop name, forced the door

53:53

open and went in. Deputies

53:56

made Kay wait outside. Moose

53:58

tried to open the door to the kitchen. but there

54:00

was resistance from the other side. He

54:03

pushed it open just enough to take one step

54:05

inside and take a look. The

54:07

main smell in the kitchen was from a pot

54:09

of beans on the stovetop that had been left

54:11

to burn all night, but Deputy Moose also smelled

54:14

dried blood. Catherine Miller's

54:16

body was on the kitchen floor, slumped

54:18

against the refrigerator, sitting in a puddle

54:20

of cooled wood. Moose

54:23

checked her pulse, but it was clear that Catherine

54:25

was dead. There were two

54:27

large, bloody gunshot wounds in the top of

54:29

her head, plain to see through her thin

54:31

white hair. There was

54:34

blood spatter on the fridge and wall and ceiling.

54:37

Right away, Moose could picture a rough outline of

54:39

what had happened. 77-year-old

54:42

Catherine had been shoved down to the ground,

54:44

and while she struggled to get up, her

54:46

assailant had stood over her and shot her

54:48

twice in the head. Bam-bam.

54:51

Execution style. There

54:54

were signs the house had been ransacked. Sort

54:57

of. Catherine's coffee table had

54:59

been tipped over, but the bank bag full of

55:01

notes on the chair right beside it hadn't been

55:03

touched. A drawer of silverware was open,

55:05

but nothing had been taken out of it. In

55:08

Catherine's bedroom, the drawers had been yanked out

55:10

of her dressers, which wasn't unusual in a

55:12

burglary. What was weird was that

55:14

the clothes from the dresser had been stacked

55:16

in neat little piles on the floor. Who

55:19

does this sound like? Catherine

55:22

had had several guns, quite a bit of jewelry, and

55:24

a bunch of cash in her house, and none of

55:26

it had been taken. All that

55:29

was missing was her purse. Now there's

55:31

staging a crime scene, and then there's

55:33

half-assed staging a crime scene, and this

55:35

was definitely the latter, and the investigators

55:38

saw through it immediately. There

55:40

was no question of this being the infamous

55:42

robbery gone wrong. Catherine Miller

55:44

had been deliberately targeted and murdered.

55:47

After Jason learned his grandmother, who he

55:50

loved, was dead, he and McEl went

55:52

driving. After a while,

55:54

he'd gone to see Elsie. Jason

55:56

didn't know quite how creepy Elsie had gotten

55:59

with his mom, he was a cop. Jason

56:01

wanted to talk to him about what had happened. LC

56:04

didn't seem remotely surprised or shocked to

56:06

learn that Catherine was dead. He just

56:09

asked Jason some weird questions about police

56:11

tracking dogs, then offered to give Jason

56:13

some money. He'd never done that before and

56:15

Jason said he didn't need any. When

56:17

Jason told Kay about this, she right away

56:19

thought about her mom's missing purse, which always

56:21

had cash in it. Forensics wouldn't

56:24

be able to identify any prints from Catherine's

56:26

house other than her own. LC made a

56:29

point of telling several people that his prints would

56:31

probably be there since he'd been there a few times.

56:33

Oh, and he'd also showered there after doing yardwork

56:35

once just in case any of his hairs were

56:38

in the bathtub or drain or anything. You know,

56:40

just washing off dirt and sweat, definitely

56:42

not blood and gunshot residue. Later

56:44

that same day, Catherine's wallet and credit cards

56:46

were found in the gutter in a neighborhood

56:48

with a bad reputation for drug activity, which

56:51

was about as convincing as the terrible staging

56:53

in the house. Each card

56:55

had been carefully wiped clean before it was

56:57

tossed. Kay and

56:59

Jason were both devastated by Catherine's death. Kay

57:01

said she went numbly through the next days as

57:04

neighbors and friends came around to console her and

57:06

she was scared to leave the house. When

57:08

she went to her mom's funeral, she asked a friend

57:11

who was a retired FBI agent to house it for

57:13

her. She was scared she'd come back and

57:15

find someone in her house. As

57:18

soon as she learned her mom had been killed, Kay

57:20

thought of LC, but she'd mostly talked

57:23

herself out of it. He couldn't have, could he?

57:27

Right after her mom's funeral, Kay got a call

57:29

from Sweden from one of Victor's friends who was

57:31

worried about him. In the aftermath

57:33

of her mom's death, Kay had understandably forgotten

57:35

all about Victor. Now she started

57:37

to worry that something might have happened to him too.

57:40

She called the sheriff's office to report him missing.

57:43

Victor's apartment manager had already made a

57:45

similar report, but it happened that FBI

57:48

agent Don Gale, who was investigating Catherine

57:50

Miller's murder, was there when Kay called

57:52

in. There was a murdered

57:54

woman and a missing man and Kay Weeden was

57:56

the common factor. The local

57:58

police knew all about Kay and LC. An

58:01

officer first came by to talk to Elsie the

58:03

evening of the day Catherine's body had been found.

58:05

He was all wide-eyed and innocent. Oh,

58:08

he loved Mrs. Miller. She was a sweet

58:10

old lady. He

58:12

didn't love Jason, though. In

58:14

fact, he started ranting about the kid so much it was

58:16

hard to get him to stop. He was

58:18

a spoiled brat. He drank. He stole. He

58:21

took drugs. He even hit his mother.

58:23

None of this was true, but he repeated this real the next

58:25

time the cops talked to him. By the

58:27

third time, with all the subtlety of a landslide, he

58:30

tried to reel the cops in, clearly

58:32

thinking they were idiots. He'd

58:34

first learned about Catherine's death when Jason had come

58:36

over. Jason was

58:39

acting real strange that day, Elsie said. He

58:41

wasn't crying or upset. He really wanted to clean

58:43

up his car. Like

58:48

I... Mm. Yeah, and I'm

58:50

wondering if that

58:52

money that he offered him actually did

58:54

come from Catherine would have had her

58:56

prints on it. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

59:00

Yeah. Yep. He's a piece of work.

59:03

But getting rid of everyone he hated

59:06

around Kay would be a real clean sleep

59:08

for him, huh? Yep. For

59:11

a while. It's the worst thing you could possibly

59:13

do. I mean, you know, if you really want

59:16

to devastate somebody, that's the way to do it.

59:19

Yeah. He also rewrote

59:21

his relationship with Kay. We

59:23

broke up several months ago. I was the one to

59:25

end it. Kay was getting too possessive, and

59:28

I felt like I was getting smothered. See,

59:30

Kay had been calling my house, harassing me

59:32

on the phone. It got so bad that I

59:34

had her number blocked on my phone. Pot?

59:38

Kind of. Like what? Like, so

59:40

he knew... That's what blows my mind is

59:42

because sometimes with these people, like, they genuinely

59:44

don't think they're doing anything wrong. They,

59:46

like, think they're destined to be with them. But, like,

59:49

he knew. He knew that he was

59:51

wrong. Oh, yeah. He's just lying. Mm-hmm.

59:54

Yeah. The lawyers knew this

59:56

was horseshit, but they didn't press the issue yet, just

59:58

like they didn't call him out on all the other...

1:00:00

lies and contradictions they'd already called them in. Within

1:00:02

days of Katherine's death, they've gotten four separate

1:00:04

reports of a deep red or wine-colored 70s

1:00:07

car parked close to Katherine Miller's house on

1:00:09

the night she was killed. One

1:00:11

of Elsie's cars was a 1979

1:00:14

Burgundy Monte Carlo. They felt

1:00:16

sure Elsie was their killer, but they didn't have enough to

1:00:18

pull him in yet. It would take the

1:00:20

discovery of Victor Gunnarsson's body to do that. Sergeant

1:00:23

Paul LeMay and Agent Don Gale

1:00:25

searched Elsie Underwood's home with crime scene

1:00:28

technicians. They had bullets from both murders

1:00:30

and wanted to find the weapons that had fired

1:00:32

them. Elsie's house was

1:00:34

eerily sparse and clean. It didn't look

1:00:36

like anybody lived there at all. Things

1:00:39

were weirdly, obsessively ordered. In

1:00:42

his kitchen cabinets, the soup cans

1:00:44

were arranged in perfect lines, alphabetized,

1:00:46

and all turned so their labels

1:00:48

faced outward. In

1:00:51

Elsie's closet, his shirts were all ironed,

1:00:53

all facing the same direction, and the

1:00:55

hangers were carefully spaced exactly the same

1:00:57

distance apart. Below

1:00:59

them were 10 pairs of near-identical dress

1:01:01

shoes with the tassels secured with rubber

1:01:03

bands. These were apparently the

1:01:06

only shoes he owned. On

1:01:08

almost every wall, there were professionally

1:01:10

framed pictures of Elsie and various

1:01:12

letters of appreciation and commendation he'd accrued

1:01:14

over the years. Beside his phone

1:01:17

was a notebook. In

1:01:19

it, he'd written a numbered list of everything he owned

1:01:21

over several pages. But

1:01:24

the list started with number 11. Numbers

1:01:27

1 through 10 were on a separate page

1:01:29

after everything else. Sergeant

1:01:31

May figured that maybe his original list had been honest,

1:01:33

and the first page had included a 38 special

1:01:36

revolver, the weapon used to kill Catherine

1:01:38

Miller. After she was

1:01:40

killed, Elsie had torn out that page. Sure

1:01:43

enough, forensic analysis would determine indentations

1:01:45

of 38 revolver were

1:01:47

still on the second page. Evidence,

1:01:50

but nonspecific evidence. The

1:01:53

house had provided evidence of Elsie's weirdness, but

1:01:55

not a whole lot else. Both

1:01:58

of Elsie's cars were towed to a police garage

1:02:00

for inspection. The

1:02:02

cars were spotless which was to be expected

1:02:04

for LC. Even the engines looked

1:02:07

like they'd been polished. The mats

1:02:09

in both trunks looked like they'd been recently

1:02:11

cleaned but were taken for analysis anyway. The

1:02:14

investigators weren't optimistic. LC

1:02:17

was a neat freak anyway. When he took extra

1:02:19

effort to clean up there wasn't much chance he'd miss

1:02:21

something. He had. On the

1:02:25

underside of the trunk lid in the Monte Carlo

1:02:27

there was what looked very much like a man's

1:02:29

shoe print. There aren't many

1:02:31

good ways that a shoe print is going to end up

1:02:33

on the inside of a car trunk. The

1:02:36

investigators thought that if a man was bound and

1:02:39

on his belly in the trunk and kicked upwards

1:02:41

with his feet it would make a mark just

1:02:43

like that. LC

1:02:45

had taken his Monte Carlo in to have

1:02:47

it professionally cleaned and had paid special attention

1:02:49

to the trunk mats having them washed twice.

1:02:52

Nevertheless the forensics lab found 17 hairs

1:02:54

on the trunk mat that

1:02:57

in an initial microscope analysis looked like

1:02:59

a match for Victor Gunnarsson. A conclusive

1:03:02

DNA test would take longer but this was

1:03:04

enough for a grand jury to give the

1:03:06

okay for some habeas grandmas on LC Underwood.

1:03:10

Deputy swarmed him as soon as he pulled out of his

1:03:12

driveway. He was charged with the

1:03:15

first-degree murder and first-degree kidnapping of

1:03:17

Victor Gunnarsson. When the DNA

1:03:19

analysis came back as a match LC's

1:03:21

goose was cooked like Christmas dinner. You

1:03:24

know he really should have just been

1:03:27

a cleaner like he should have started

1:03:29

his own specialty cleaning business and he

1:03:31

could have like really done something because I'd love

1:03:34

to have him come over and clean our house.

1:03:36

Yeah you can put my soup cans in alphabetical

1:03:38

order that'd be great but

1:03:40

no we had to try and be a cop and get a

1:03:42

power trip and you know. In

1:03:46

the county jail LC had his own

1:03:48

cell which was normal for especially violent

1:03:50

or notorious offenders. Kind

1:03:53

of catty-corner across from him was another

1:03:55

cell with only one occupant Lisa Collins

1:03:57

currently the only female prisoner. They

1:04:00

would have this hall of jail house to

1:04:02

themselves for about six months and eventually developed

1:04:04

as much of a romantic relationship as you

1:04:07

can in two separate cells. And

1:04:09

according to Lisa, Elsie eventually

1:04:11

admitted to and described both

1:04:13

murders. Thing about that

1:04:16

is, Lisa was in for multiple frauds and was

1:04:18

caught in several lies, so she's not exactly the

1:04:20

best witness, but it's from her that we get

1:04:22

our best picture of what happened to Victor. The

1:04:27

night Kay and Victor had slept together, Elsie had

1:04:29

had a friend in the department run the plates

1:04:31

on Victor's car to get his address. Then

1:04:33

he'd gone home and gotten one of his

1:04:36

uniformed shirts, an old pair of handcuffs, and

1:04:38

rolls of electrical and masking tape. He

1:04:40

thought he'd had duct tape, but couldn't find it. He

1:04:43

drove to Victor's apartment complex and waited.

1:04:46

He had his badge on, on one pocket of

1:04:48

his shirt, but had taken the nameplate off the

1:04:50

other, just in case he was seen. He

1:04:53

waited till Victor came home, then went up and knocked

1:04:56

on the door. Victor

1:04:58

answered the door in black briefs and a robe. Salisbury

1:05:01

PD, Elsie said. Elsie

1:05:03

told him he needed to talk to him about

1:05:05

his car and Victor put on some slip-on shoes

1:05:07

and followed him downstairs. Once

1:05:11

they were there, Elsie said it was too cold to

1:05:13

talk outside. They should get into his car. Then

1:05:16

he shoved Victor against the car and with practice

1:05:18

skill handcuffed him. Are you arresting

1:05:20

me? Victor said. Elsie said, get in

1:05:22

the car. When they were in,

1:05:24

Victor had more questions, but Elsie yelled at him until he

1:05:26

shut up. Elsie drove

1:05:28

them out to the dark country road and killed the

1:05:30

engine. Move and

1:05:32

I'll kill you, he said, then wrapped

1:05:34

electrical tape around Victor's wrists before taking

1:05:37

off the cuffs. He popped

1:05:39

the trunk open, then took out his revolver, got out

1:05:41

of the car and walked around to Victor's side and

1:05:43

opened the door. He

1:05:45

walked Victor to the back of the car at

1:05:47

gunpoint, then had him lay down on

1:05:49

the asphalt. There he bound

1:05:51

Victor's feet together with electrical tape. He wrapped the

1:05:54

electrical tape all around Victor's head, then masking

1:05:56

tape when that ran out, only leaving his nose

1:05:58

clear so Victor could not be hurt. breathe. He

1:06:01

forced Victor into the trunk and slammed

1:06:03

it closed. Moments later, the

1:06:05

car started moving again. Victor

1:06:08

was trapped in the trunk for a couple

1:06:10

of hours as Elsie drove, bound and blind

1:06:12

and terrified and increasingly cold. He

1:06:14

only had on briefs and a robe as the

1:06:16

car drove into the freezing winter night of the

1:06:19

mountains. He might even have

1:06:21

drifted into the dreamy state of early hypothermia.

1:06:24

Eventually, the car stopped and Elsie opened the

1:06:27

trunk and manhandled the stiff and cold Victor

1:06:29

out onto the roadside beside a wooded hill.

1:06:31

Prodding him in the back with his gun, Elsie forced

1:06:34

Victor to stumble into the woods. He

1:06:37

knew he'd found a good spot when he saw a fallen

1:06:39

pine tree. A body could

1:06:41

stay hidden in the shadow of

1:06:43

the fallen trunk forever. He shot

1:06:45

Victor. The bullet went into the side of

1:06:47

his neck, making a small hole. Victor

1:06:49

fell onto his side. Elsie

1:06:51

kicked him onto his back, put the gun close

1:06:53

to Victor's temple and fired again. Victor

1:06:56

was dead, but Elsie still had work to do. He

1:06:59

cut the tape off of Victor's body with his knife, then

1:07:02

stripped off his robe, briefs and shoes, wadding

1:07:04

everything into a ball. He

1:07:06

walked away, leaving Victor Gunnarsson dead and naked

1:07:08

on the forest floor. Unnoticed,

1:07:12

one length of tape with a clear 22 gauge

1:07:15

bullet hole in it fell free from the bundle.

1:07:20

Lisa Collins was too unreliable to put on the

1:07:22

witness stand, but there was plenty of evidence against

1:07:24

Elsie without her. Elsie Underwood was

1:07:26

convicted of first-degree murder and first-degree kidnapping and

1:07:29

sentenced to life plus 40 years.

1:07:32

Much to the frustration of investigators and K. Whedon,

1:07:34

he was never charged for the murder of Catherine

1:07:37

Miller. Apparently, prosecutors

1:07:39

thought the evidence for that case was too thin,

1:07:41

and they worried that if Elsie skated on that

1:07:43

charge, it might help him with his appeals and

1:07:45

the Gunnarsson convictions. Why

1:07:48

he killed Catherine only makes sense if you try and

1:07:50

think like Elsie. He had

1:07:52

to have K, and he wanted her all to himself.

1:07:55

Catherine had been encouraging K to break up with him.

1:07:58

Without her interference, maybe. They would

1:08:00

take a back and stay with him. And.

1:08:02

He managed to get Jason put away for her murder

1:08:04

of than hey K would have no one but him.

1:08:08

It's. Psychopath logic. Any between L

1:08:10

C and what he wanted was

1:08:12

expendable. Lc. Underwood

1:08:14

died in prison on December. Twenty

1:08:16

Third. Twenty. eighteen of kidney cancer,

1:08:19

When. Paul A. May called K. Weeden on Christmas

1:08:21

Day to tell her. K burst into tears

1:08:23

and said it was the best Christmas present

1:08:25

anyone could ever have given her. Both.

1:08:28

See and Jason went on Investigation Discovery years

1:08:30

later to talk about the smoking crater this

1:08:32

man made in their lives and you can

1:08:35

tell it's taken a huge toll on them

1:08:37

and even in their relationship with each other

1:08:39

which is interesting and sad. But.

1:08:41

Now that he's out of their lives, forever

1:08:43

out of everybody's lives, we hope they'll be

1:08:45

able to heal. So.

1:08:48

That was a wild one, right campers? You know

1:08:50

we'll have another one for you next week. But

1:08:52

for now, lock your doors, locked the lights, and

1:08:54

stay safe until we get together again From. The

1:08:56

true cranky entire. And. As

1:08:59

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