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0:44

Good evening. Emergency services responding to a fire

0:46

have found a mother of four murdered

0:48

in her Warmbra home. A

0:51

mum of one has been found dead

0:53

inside her own home, allegedly murdered by

0:55

her ex-boyfriend. How dare you? How

0:57

dare you go into politics in

1:00

an environment like this when one

1:02

woman is murdered every four days? Hope's

1:05

action may finally be taken to prevent the

1:07

deaths of women in domestic violence attacks. The

1:10

Prime Minister calling an emergency national cabinet meeting

1:12

as tens of thousands marched across the country.

1:16

Ten, eight, five, six, seven,

1:18

eight. No

1:20

more violence, no more hate. We

1:23

need to acknowledge that

1:25

we need to change

1:27

behaviour, we need to

1:29

change attitudes, we need

1:31

to change culture. This

1:34

month we're doing things a little bit

1:36

differently here on True Crime Conversations. I'm

1:39

Gemma Bath, your host, and

1:41

I want to talk to you about men's violence against women.

1:45

Because right now it's so

1:47

alarming and so terrifying, the rate at

1:49

which we are losing women, that

1:52

it's pertinent that we do everything we

1:54

can to progress this conversation towards actual

1:56

change in our country. This

1:59

week is the end. the start of domestic

2:01

and family violence prevention months. It's

2:03

only May, and by the end of April, 32 women

2:07

had been murdered in Australia in 2024 alone.

2:12

Of course, all of these deaths weren't domestic.

2:15

Five women died recently at the Bondi Westfield

2:17

stabbing attack in Sydney. We

2:19

know the attacker didn't know them personally, but

2:21

we know he targeted women when he started

2:24

stabbing people on a Saturday afternoon. But

2:27

most female deaths at the hands of men

2:30

are domestic. On

2:32

April 22, 28-year-old child care

2:35

professional and mum-of-one Molly Teishurst

2:37

was killed in her Forbes home in New South

2:40

Wales. Her former partner,

2:42

who had recently been bailed for an assault on

2:44

Molly, has been charged with

2:46

her murder. On

2:48

April 14, 67-year-old

2:51

palliative care volunteer and mum-of-four Leslie

2:53

Stillman was murdered by her former

2:55

partner in her Karama home in

2:57

Western Australia. He killed

2:59

himself too, but not before

3:01

leaving a note which read, won't get

3:04

justice, we'll die with her. On

3:07

April 5, the body

3:09

of 23-year-old Hannah McGuire was found

3:11

in a burnt-out car in Scarsdale,

3:13

Victoria. Her former partner

3:15

has been charged with murder. A

3:18

domestic violence disorder had recently been placed

3:20

against him. Set

3:23

up with the horrific stories of women's lives

3:25

being cut short, 100,000 people,

3:29

men, women and children, marched

3:31

the streets in 17 towns

3:33

and cities across the country last weekend. Stay

3:36

the one, stay again, take care

3:38

of the people of Ireland. It

3:41

is exhausting, we are exhausted. The

3:44

20th serving system of women in this

3:46

country has experienced violence or abuse at

3:48

the hands of a partner. The numbers

3:50

and the reality are so much

3:52

higher. They demanded more to be

3:55

done to stop the violence. Our

3:57

government has a 10-year plan, but what about today?

4:00

Tomorrow, next week, how

4:03

many women do we have to lose before

4:05

that plan comes to fruition? This

4:09

month on True Crime Conversations, we're

4:11

revisiting stories from our archives to

4:14

highlight crimes involving male violence against

4:16

women in our country. Stories

4:19

that should have been the case that stopped the

4:21

country and forced change. Stories

4:23

that are shocking to relive but important

4:25

to understand. But

4:27

before we get to that, we wanted

4:29

to talk to someone who lives and

4:31

breathes violence against women every single day.

4:35

Shirel Moody is a journalist, an

4:37

Our Watch fellow and the founder

4:40

of the Red Heart Campaign and the Australian

4:42

Femicide Watch. She

4:44

has created a moving and chilling

4:46

memorial online that tracks every

4:48

known Australian woman and child killed as a

4:51

result of murder, manslaughter or

4:53

neglect from white settlement to

4:55

now. Visually,

4:57

that looks like dozens upon dozens

4:59

of hearts on a page. Big

5:02

hearts for women, little hearts

5:04

for kids. Every

5:06

image tells you a different heartbreaking story

5:08

with the hover of your mouth. Shirel

5:12

joins us now to talk about her work, the

5:14

state of the world and what we can actually

5:16

do to see change. I

5:26

want to start with your own story

5:28

because you are no stranger to violence

5:30

in your own life and family. Can

5:33

you tell us about that as much as you feel comfortable

5:35

sharing? Absolutely. When

5:38

I was about 14 or 15 years old, my

5:40

mum married a guy up in

5:42

Queensland and we knew very little

5:45

about him. After

5:47

they married, he told us that he'd been in

5:49

jail for manslaughter and that he had king hit

5:51

a man and the man died. About

5:54

three or four years later, out at

5:56

Roamer, a little girl went missing. She was nine years

5:58

old and her name was Stacy. The

6:02

man that my mother married, my

6:04

stepfather, was the person who abducted,

6:06

raped and murdered her very

6:08

early in the police investigations when they first

6:10

spoke to me. I think

6:13

it was about 24 hours, maybe 48

6:15

hours after Stacy-Ann had disappeared and they

6:17

told me my stepfather's background and that in

6:19

fact he hadn't killed a man.

6:21

He had raped, abducted

6:23

and murdered another little girl

6:26

for 20 or so years

6:28

previously. He spent time

6:30

in jail obviously for the murder of

6:32

Sandra Bacon who he killed in Townsville.

6:35

He was released with support

6:37

of a Christian community who

6:39

lobbied for his parole. He

6:41

met my mother, he married and consequently they

6:43

moved to Roma and he

6:45

came across Stacy-Ann the day before he

6:48

killed her. She was visiting a friend

6:51

at the units that my mother and stepfather

6:53

lived in and the next day he saw

6:55

her, he followed her as she dropped her

6:57

little sister to school and then picked her

6:59

up and took her before she

7:01

was able to safely arrive at her own school

7:03

and within a couple of hours she was dead.

7:06

How old were you when you found this out? Gosh,

7:09

I was 19. Yeah,

7:12

so I pretty much knew when

7:14

the police came and knocked on the door and

7:16

said they had a warrant. There was obviously a

7:19

sinking feeling. We knew a child had

7:21

gone missing and in fact he had talked about the

7:23

child being missing and he was an

7:25

SES volunteer, so a state emergency volunteer.

7:28

He actually attended one of the

7:30

searches for her as he

7:32

had done with Sandra when he killed her.

7:35

So when the police knocked on the door

7:37

with that warrant there was

7:39

definitely a knowledge that something was amiss and

7:41

that someone in our household had done something

7:43

to her and that

7:45

likely became evident as the police

7:48

were searching the house and speaking to

7:50

us and speaking to him privately. What

7:54

kind of effect did something like

7:56

that have on your formative years?

7:58

You're only 19 when you find that out. that out

8:00

on your young adulthood? Oh

8:03

my gosh. I spend a lot of time

8:05

being angry about this. You

8:07

can't have something like that happen and

8:09

not feel a real

8:11

level of guilt, a real level of anger,

8:14

a real level of sadness. And

8:16

it was something that sat with

8:18

me for a very long time and then

8:21

about eight or nine years ago, I started

8:23

the Red Heart campaign off the back of

8:25

doing a fairly big domestic violence

8:27

campaign as part of my employment

8:30

in the media industry back in the day

8:32

and the Red Heart campaign came from that

8:34

and I just really felt like that was

8:36

a space to put my anger into and

8:39

you can't turn something like this into a positive.

8:41

You just can't do that but to turn

8:44

it into something useful and something

8:46

that makes change for other people's

8:48

lives and perhaps makes up in

8:51

some small way for

8:53

Stacey's family and for Sandra's family.

8:57

Going back to the start of the creation

8:59

of Red Hearts, how

9:01

did you come up with this idea? Because

9:03

obviously in this space you

9:06

would have been trying to think of something to

9:08

actually make people stop

9:10

and listen. How did

9:12

you end up on this idea? So

9:14

initially it started as the idea was that

9:16

people would share a heart if they

9:19

were impacted by violence, in particular

9:21

domestic violence. And after a

9:23

while I became extremely aware from

9:25

conversations I was having with women that

9:27

women were being impacted by violence outside

9:30

of the domestic and intimate partner

9:33

sphere. So people were suffering

9:35

sexual violence or physical violence

9:37

at the hands of people

9:39

who weren't not always their

9:41

family. So maybe neighbours,

9:43

friends, colleagues

9:46

and sometimes strangers. Then

9:48

I kind of thought

9:50

there's no real documentation of lives

9:52

lost in Australia. There's

9:55

no memorial for lives lost.

9:57

There's no online database where

9:59

you can and look up people

10:01

who have been murdered. And so I'd

10:03

started with obviously Stacy and Sandra as

10:05

the first two people that

10:07

I added to, I guess the femicide

10:09

watch, as it is now known. And

10:12

since then I've just been adding women

10:14

and children as they are killed and

10:17

also women and children who were killed

10:19

in previous years. So going back to

10:21

white settlement in Australia. Hiral,

10:24

that is a huge task because- Yes,

10:26

that's it. It's not like a

10:28

few women die. We're talking hundreds,

10:31

we're talking thousands. How much time

10:33

have you spent on this? A

10:35

lot. Some weeks I might spend 10 hours.

10:38

The thing is that you can't just add them.

10:40

In terms of adding current deaths, obviously

10:43

cases are still going through the court process and

10:45

there are cases going through the coronal

10:47

process. And so those need to

10:49

be completely updated as they happen.

10:51

I need to do updates at

10:53

least once a year. Send back

10:55

track and check every case that's there

10:57

and make sure that it's up to date

10:59

in terms of the court's or coronal. So

11:01

it's not just adding new deaths

11:04

and it's not just adding historical deaths,

11:06

it's the constant updating as well. How

11:08

much of your personal and professional time do you

11:10

spend doing this? Are you getting messages through at

11:13

3 a.m. in the morning? Are

11:15

you doing it in the middle of a

11:17

dinner with your partner? Basically

11:19

this is how my day operates. I

11:22

get up, the first thing I do

11:24

is I check my messages and then

11:26

I check police media releases and then

11:28

I check a news site. So that's

11:31

a good half hour coffee doing that.

11:33

I go for a run, I'll come back,

11:35

I'll have breakfast and I'll just really go

11:38

through more news websites and follow up any

11:40

tips that I've had. I work

11:42

with Canva to do the She Matters post so

11:44

they just take a couple of minutes. If a

11:46

woman's been killed and I've got information, I might

11:49

spend an hour writing a post and sending that

11:51

out. I try to spend

11:53

about two or three hours a

11:55

week at a minimum updating the

11:57

memorial with the current death. and

12:00

following up any court conclusions that

12:02

might have come through. But,

12:05

yeah, look, an average week,

12:07

it depends. At the moment, I'm off work and

12:09

so half of my time is dedicated to that.

12:12

It's a minimum of two hours a day,

12:14

which doesn't sound like much, but I'm constantly

12:17

checking. So I'm not just checking in the

12:19

morning, I'll check in the middle of the day and later in

12:21

the afternoon and then sometimes I'll be, like, about

12:23

to go to bed and there's the media release

12:25

or there's the headline and it's, you know, I

12:27

have to stay up and do the posts and

12:29

stay alert and be monitoring and stuff like that.

12:32

So, yeah, it's a massive

12:34

gig and sometimes it really feels

12:36

overwhelming, especially when we

12:38

have so many deaths in such a short

12:41

period of time. I feel

12:43

like sometimes you're the first

12:45

person posting. It seems like you know

12:48

about these deaths before a lot of people in Australia do. How

12:50

are you finding out? Is it family reaching out to

12:53

you? Who's telling you? I consider myself

12:55

to be really lucky. I have excellent

12:57

contacts in place across

13:00

the country and that's just something that

13:02

I've built up as a journalist over

13:04

many years and also because a lot

13:07

of police seem to have an admiration for

13:09

the work that we're doing and understand the need

13:11

for it in this space and

13:13

families. The families are really vital

13:15

to this research and very important.

13:18

And often I also get information from

13:20

community members and friends of victims and

13:23

stuff like that. We do

13:25

have some situations where deaths are

13:27

not reported publicly by police. For

13:29

instance, that's quite common in

13:31

Western Australia. There's one case at the

13:33

moment that I'm trying to get information on where

13:36

an Indigenous woman was killed in the past

13:38

two weeks in a house fire, much

13:41

like Erica Hay, but definitely

13:43

not her, in a remote region

13:45

and the police are just not giving

13:47

me the information I need to be able to add

13:49

her and track her. That her

13:51

family have given me the background and so I'm

13:54

sort of stuck in this loop where I know

13:56

it's happened but it's hard to

13:58

kind of add and to put it in. I

14:00

have that sort of official. And

14:03

over the process of doing what you do,

14:05

do you build relationships with families and stay

14:07

in touch with them? Oh my

14:09

God, yeah. You know, that first conversation with

14:12

them is really hard, but I

14:14

have so many friends

14:17

as a result of this work,

14:19

so particularly parents and siblings

14:21

of women who've been murdered. And it

14:23

just... sometimes I can't remember all of

14:25

their names, but they're the kind of

14:27

people that you check in every now

14:29

and then or they check in on

14:31

you. And the friendship

14:34

circle is very big because of this job.

14:37

Do you feel like you're in a unique position because

14:40

you have had violence touch your

14:42

own family, that you are able to

14:44

connect with these people? Yeah,

14:47

coming from that different angle

14:49

of being the relative of

14:51

a killer. It's

14:53

kind of a weird angle to come in

14:55

from, but I know Stacy and

14:57

family, I know really well and I have a

15:00

really strong friendship with them. And

15:02

I've learnt a lot from them

15:04

about how

15:07

murder impacts a person's life and

15:10

I'm able to take those learnings

15:12

and use them to

15:14

inform how I interact with other

15:16

families. Yeah, if it hadn't

15:18

have been for this situation, I would never

15:21

have been able to do this ethically. Or

15:24

morally in a way that fits well. What

15:28

has the response been like to this

15:30

project? Mainly

15:32

it's positive. I would say 95% of

15:35

the response is positive. But of course

15:37

there is that 5% of people who

15:39

feel like by focusing on women and

15:41

children, unnecessarily maligning

15:44

men or deliberately

15:47

choosing not to add

15:49

them because I don't care. And

15:51

both of those things are as far from the truth as

15:53

you can get. You and

15:56

I know why that is not true, but for those

15:58

listening, we do have a lot of male listeners. Can

16:00

you tell us more? Yeah, look,

16:04

on an average year you would expect to

16:06

add 52 women and one

16:08

child per month, so on average, so

16:10

12 children. So

16:13

that's a lot of deaths. We know that

16:15

around four times the number of men

16:17

are killed. I'm one person.

16:19

I just don't have the resources for it.

16:21

I don't have the mental fortitude to

16:24

take on that level of relentless

16:27

violence. I just can't do it.

16:30

And it's also, correct me

16:32

if I'm wrong, but violence against

16:34

women is such an

16:37

important thing to highlight because most of

16:39

the people that are being killed, men

16:41

or women, are being killed by men.

16:44

Absolutely. I've always said this.

16:47

If we can end or reduce

16:49

violence against women, we automatically reduce

16:52

violence against men because the

16:54

main perpetrators in the country are

16:56

male and the main

16:59

drivers and factors also underpin

17:01

those deaths in many ways, especially

17:03

the domestic violence deaths, that sense

17:05

of ownership, that sense of control,

17:08

that sense of toxicity, you know, they're

17:10

all still there in male deaths. If

17:12

we can eliminate violence against women, we

17:15

will save many, many male lives and

17:17

a lot of people don't realise that.

17:24

You're listening to True Crime Conversations

17:26

with me, Gemma Bath. I'm

17:29

speaking with journalist Shirel Moody about

17:31

Australia's epidemic of violence against women.

17:41

You have to do a new heart every

17:44

few days, really, especially at the moment.

17:47

We're 30 days into April

17:49

and I've done 12 new

17:52

hearts plus two children. So actually I've

17:54

done 14 hearts, so 12

17:56

women and two children. Obviously...

18:00

these statistics are

18:02

much higher this year due to

18:05

Bondi Junction. But

18:07

if we take those deaths out, we

18:09

are still tracking higher than

18:12

previous years at

18:14

this point. How do

18:16

you mentally deal with this? Because that's a lot.

18:18

It's a lot to take on. You

18:21

just do it. Look, any kind of

18:24

emotional or mental fatigue I feel is

18:26

nothing compared to the

18:28

impact on their families and their loved ones

18:30

and their communities. It is absolutely nothing. And

18:33

the reality is someone has to do it

18:35

and someone has to do it properly. Like

18:38

we can't have a project like this eliminating

18:41

women because they don't meet

18:43

a certain criteria. For instance,

18:45

I document Australian women killed

18:47

overseas and I refuse to

18:50

not add them because who

18:53

am I to say to their family that because

18:55

your person was killed overseas they're

18:57

not relevant to us. Of course

18:59

they're relevant. So we need

19:01

to be really aware of that and also

19:03

in the case of murder suicide, if there's

19:05

strong confirmation from the family that a woman

19:08

has been killed by her partner, then I'm

19:10

adding her. I'm not saying to

19:12

them, look, you're lying to me.

19:14

That's not a conversation I'm going to have with them. The

19:17

reality is that a murder

19:19

suicide is still the erasure of a woman.

19:23

What are the similarities in the stories

19:25

that you see? One that comes to

19:27

mind for me, is this a

19:29

similarity that a lot of women are killed

19:31

when they actually leave a relationship? Oh

19:34

yeah, totally. So many times I've written

19:37

for the memorial, she had only recently

19:39

left her partner or she was talking

19:41

to him, she was going to see

19:43

him to talk about future arrangements after

19:45

having left or she had indicated to

19:47

someone that she was on the verge

19:49

of leaving. Do you know what I

19:51

mean? It is a really common theme. Obviously

19:53

in the intimate partner of violence deaths that

19:56

are either on the verge of leaving or

19:58

having left. Are

20:00

there any other similarities like that that you've

20:03

noticed trends over time? There's

20:05

almost always an act

20:07

of violence or coercive control

20:09

beforehand for sure. There

20:12

are always people who say we knew this was

20:14

going to happen. And one of

20:16

the common themes is families saying, look, we have no

20:18

idea that this was ever going to happen. The

20:21

other significant person in this never showed

20:23

any acts of violence. If

20:25

you sort of pull away

20:28

the layers, you can see the

20:30

acts of coercion. So it might

20:32

be financial control, emotional control, just

20:34

the basics. What

20:37

about AVOs or DVOs? Yeah,

20:40

so DVOs and AVOs can

20:42

often be present in the

20:44

intimate partner violence deaths, particularly

20:47

in some cases there have been AVOs and

20:49

DVOs where a child has killed

20:51

their mother or grandmother. Not

20:54

as common, but definitely there.

20:58

As well as being the host of this podcast, I

21:00

am a writer and an editor here at Mamma Mia.

21:03

And so I talk about violence against women in my

21:05

day to day a lot. And

21:08

I find December the hardest month when it

21:10

comes to this topic, because it's the time

21:12

when you reflect back, you see how many

21:14

deaths there have been this year, you compare

21:16

it to the years past.

21:19

And I think it's the

21:21

sheer number of stories by that point. And the

21:23

fact that you know that the count is about

21:25

to reset. What's your

21:27

relationship with knowing that the year

21:29

is about to start again and that we're going to

21:31

be doing the same thing again? Yeah,

21:33

look, I mean, obviously I've got a count.

21:36

I've got an offline database with all of

21:38

the information there. So it's something that I

21:40

see every day. But one of

21:42

the things I do find about hitting December

21:44

is the emotional exhaustion is pretty heavy. And

21:47

it always feels like there's not much of a

21:50

reprieve between the end of December and the

21:52

start of January. It's just it is pretty fast.

21:55

And I think the other thing is like

21:57

when we reset the count, I

21:59

feel like in. many ways we're kind of saying

22:04

that the discussion about the women killed

22:06

last year is over. It's

22:08

kind of a hard one. Like you want to reset the count.

22:10

You want to keep that discussion going but also

22:12

have this discussion over here and yeah,

22:16

it's kind of hard for

22:19

that to sit comfortably with me because

22:21

I don't want people to think that

22:23

their person has been forgotten simply because

22:25

of the year that they were killed

22:27

in. But I guess that also

22:29

highlights just how many women we're losing, how

22:31

many women and children we're losing that we

22:34

are having to keep going through the stories

22:36

because we can't keep up. There's so many.

22:39

I hadn't looked at last year's figures for

22:41

a while and obviously, as I said, I'm

22:43

updating deaths as I find them but I

22:45

hadn't actually gone back and did an account for

22:47

last year. I had a media

22:49

request this morning about Indigenous women and I

22:51

checked last year's numbers and I

22:54

was totally not expecting this but

22:56

my research shows that we lost 75 women

22:59

last year. That's much higher. That's

23:03

insane. That's not their children. Right.

23:06

Because there is a portion of deaths based

23:08

10% that we won't

23:10

know about for weeks and months and

23:12

we may not know about until today due

23:14

to charges or whatever that yeah, like

23:17

I was like, oh fuck, that was

23:19

a huge year. That was more than

23:21

I expected. Why? Why

23:23

last year? Why the year

23:25

before or the year before? Why this year?

23:28

There's no rhyme or reason, is there? No.

23:30

No, but I did notice that there

23:32

has been research released showing that intimate

23:35

partner violence deaths increased 30% last year.

23:37

It makes sense that the database for

23:39

last year is significantly higher. Are

23:42

there any stories about

23:45

women and children that have stayed with

23:47

you in particular that you

23:49

find floating back into your mind? This

23:53

is a really tough question to answer

23:55

because, you know, there are ones that

23:57

stand out. But then if I

23:59

think hard. there are other ones that

24:01

stand out. So yeah.

24:05

I guess you've got a head full of so many stories. Yeah,

24:07

there are so many. There are so

24:10

many. The ones that are particularly cruel

24:12

and where the level of violence is

24:15

just beyond comprehension. And

24:18

also the ones where children witness

24:20

their mum being killed. To tell

24:22

you the truth, one that comes to mind when I

24:24

think about this is a woman

24:26

was killed here in Melbourne. The

24:29

husband ripped her eyes out in

24:31

front of her children and flushed them down

24:33

the toilet. Oh my God. I

24:35

don't even remember hearing about that. The

24:38

victim is not identified to protect the

24:41

identity of the children and their futures.

24:43

And the man,

24:45

he would just... The level of cruelty

24:47

and that killing was beyond

24:50

like... It's the kind of stuff

24:52

that you don't expect to

24:54

see in the worst horror movies. But

24:57

the things he did to her in front

24:59

of those children, yeah. I

25:02

just can't even imagine how these kids

25:04

are growing up and being mentally okay.

25:06

I just can't imagine that. What

25:08

a horrendous thing for a human to do to another human.

25:11

I know, right? And do you know

25:13

what? The amazing thing is that that

25:15

story barely made a ripple.

25:19

Why? I think

25:21

when she was first murdered, no one knew

25:23

about it and then it went through trial.

25:25

And that's when the cruelty that

25:27

he subjected her came out. I

25:30

don't recall it making very big headlines. It may

25:32

have just been missed by the media. But

25:35

one of the other things was she was

25:37

a woman from a non-English speaking background. And

25:40

I do find a very recurrent

25:42

theme in, I guess,

25:45

media responses to dead women.

25:48

The more diverse their background, the

25:51

less headlines they get. So,

25:55

yeah, the less media coverage. And it's

25:57

really hard to say that as a journalist because

25:59

it's... saying that my industry

26:01

is letting women down. But for

26:03

sure, if you're white and

26:05

pretty, you'll get a lot of media attention. If

26:08

you're ethnic, say Filipino

26:10

or Muslim and you don't speak English

26:12

and your name is hard to pronounce

26:15

and you have brown skin, then it

26:18

doesn't happen much at all for them. I

26:21

do think it is worth interrogating our own industry here

26:23

because how else is it gonna change unless we talk

26:25

about it? Have you seen

26:28

any improvement in that space or in how we

26:30

report against violence against

26:32

women and children? Yeah,

26:34

look, I've been a journey for about 27, 28 years and

26:38

one of the first jobs that I ever

26:40

did, I was a cadet at the Toowoomba

26:42

Chronicle in Queensland. And

26:45

I was required to cover Magistrates Court

26:47

on this particular day and I

26:50

went along and a

26:52

man was being sentenced for a

26:54

very brutal bashing of his partner.

26:57

And he walked from jail. He didn't go

26:59

to jail, he didn't get a sentence. I

27:01

think it was a no conviction and a bond

27:03

of good order. I went back and

27:06

said to my chief of staff, mate, this guy

27:08

nearly killed this woman and he didn't go to

27:10

jail. Can this be a story? And

27:12

the chief of staff tried to talk me out of it.

27:15

It's a domestic, no one's interested. And I'm

27:17

like, but mate, he's done this to

27:19

this woman and there was no sentence. Like

27:21

he's literally walked out, we've gotta do

27:23

something. That's what the attitude was

27:26

like when I started. I remember

27:28

another time I was sent to cover a horse

27:30

race, horse racing in a small town called

27:33

Dolby, which is out past Brisbane. I

27:36

did the stuff that I had to do and then I got

27:38

talking to the female jockeys and they were telling me

27:40

about the sexual harassment they endured in

27:42

this industry. I was pretty shared. I

27:45

went back to the same chief of staff and said

27:47

to him, you know, we've got

27:49

an issue here. These women are being raped,

27:52

they're being assaulted, they're just doing

27:54

their jobs. Didn't want a bar

27:56

of it. So that's how it was

27:58

when I entered the industry. Now, at least

28:01

we are seeing media cover

28:04

our deaths and we're at least seeing

28:07

a few paragraphs when

28:09

a woman is killed. So they're doing the

28:11

basics. So we have come a long

28:13

way and yet only a

28:15

short way if you understand what I mean.

28:17

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And also

28:20

I think the rise of women's media like

28:22

Mamma Mia, women's agenda outlets

28:24

where there is a real focus on women,

28:26

it's more than just the beauty and health

28:28

and that sort of stuff. I

28:31

feel like that's actually contributing to this

28:33

and making it a lot better and

28:36

setting a standard. I

28:50

want to talk to you about promises. The

28:53

government loves promises. They have a

28:55

10 year plan that they're rolling out to try

28:58

and fix this issue. And we

29:00

do see little wins. We see things

29:02

like the DV payments recently that have

29:04

been announced or the fact that coercive

29:06

control has been criminalised in Queensland. But

29:09

what's your assessment on the government's

29:11

efforts currently towards this issue? My

29:15

assessment is that violence

29:18

against women is an exceedingly

29:21

complex yet simple problem. We

29:24

know what the main drivers are

29:26

for violence against women. We

29:29

also know that there

29:31

are many,

29:34

many things that are needed that

29:36

need funding, refuges, housing,

29:38

economic assistance, so many

29:40

things. We have some

29:43

safety nets but those safety nets have holes

29:45

in them. So for instance,

29:47

if you have an ethnic woman

29:49

needing support, so say she's from

29:51

a small ethnic community in Melbourne,

29:53

say, I don't know, the Filipino

29:55

community, right? Yep.

29:58

Hold 1-800-RESPATCH. She can't

30:00

speak English. They get her a

30:02

translator. The translator is from that

30:04

community and knows her family. So

30:07

do you know what I mean? So there's this

30:10

communication. The translator can pass

30:12

that information on to her family against

30:14

her wishes. She may not want to

30:16

speak simply because she doesn't want other people

30:18

to know or she fears the translator will

30:20

tell her husband. So

30:22

do you see what I mean? Like that is one small

30:24

hole in a safety net. This woman is not

30:27

going to reach out for help if

30:29

she fears that someone from her community is going

30:31

to know and put her at risk. I

30:34

feel like that's why it feels so overwhelming

30:36

as to say like, well, how do we change

30:38

it? Because throwing money at it just isn't going

30:40

to help. It's about fixing the holes, as you

30:42

say. And how on earth do we do that?

30:45

I mean, you have a woman in a

30:47

wheelchair and minimal

30:50

refuge spaces for women with

30:52

disability. If

30:54

she can't navigate a refuge where

30:56

there is a bed available, she's

30:58

not going to get safety. She

31:01

can't get safety if there's no lift to get

31:03

her in and out. You know what I mean?

31:06

There are so many holes and we see

31:08

them all the time, every day, every

31:11

day. And this is just a domestic

31:13

and family violence part of

31:15

this. We are not talking about

31:17

associate violence and stranger violence. And

31:20

to be fair, stranger violence is exceedingly rare

31:22

in terms of deaths of women in Australia,

31:24

but we have seen a big spike this

31:26

year and we do lose a couple of

31:28

women to stranger violence. After

31:31

intimate partner violence and domestic

31:33

violence, the next context of

31:35

deaths of women is associate

31:37

violence. So women who are

31:39

being killed by their colleagues, their neighbours, their

31:41

friends, the friend of a friend of a

31:44

friend, someone they know but

31:46

they're not in a relationship with and they're

31:48

not familial. First, how do we

31:50

count these women? Are these women being counted? In

31:53

most cases, not being counted. What

31:56

supports do we have for them? So take

31:58

the case of Celeste Mow. who was killed

32:01

by her colleague. She

32:04

spoke to him once as she was helping

32:06

him out the door after he lost his

32:08

job. He became obsessed. He stalked her. He

32:11

broke into her house. He killed her in

32:13

her own bed. Police did

32:15

what they could, but there were no other supports

32:17

here for Celeste and her

32:19

family. The government doesn't allow tracking

32:21

of offenders, of fixated offenders. So

32:24

this is another hole. If you

32:26

don't have supports for women being

32:28

killed outside of this context, outside

32:30

of this narrow domestic and family violence context,

32:32

we're still going to see many women killed.

32:35

We need to be able to address that. We need to

32:37

count it. We need to support it and we need to

32:39

examine it. I feel like before

32:42

we even get to the holes, there

32:45

is another elephant in the room which I know

32:47

that you have a lot to say on which

32:49

is this undercurrent in society

32:51

on how men think about women.

32:53

Oh yes, totally. How

32:55

on earth do we change the way society thinks though?

32:57

Oh my God, it is such a big problem. And

33:00

as I keep saying, the only people who can make

33:02

this change are men because gendered

33:04

violence is a man's problem. It's not a

33:06

woman's problem to fix. We

33:08

women work to pick up the thesis.

33:10

We work to fix it because we're

33:12

the only ones that have the drive to

33:15

it. It's always been something that

33:17

women work to solve, that we

33:19

work to aid, that we work

33:21

to house. So we've always done that.

33:24

It feels like it's always been a burden for

33:26

us to fix and we can't make this change

33:28

without men and we really need them to be

33:31

at the forefront of this. We

33:33

can't force them to think differently or behave

33:36

differently. Nothing we as women

33:38

do will influence that.

33:40

We've tried being kind. We've tried,

33:42

you know, using honey instead of

33:44

vinegar. We've tried yelling. We've tried

33:46

rallies. We've tried begging and

33:48

it doesn't work. The only

33:50

people who can fix it are men and it's

33:53

really awesome that we've seen men like Tarang

33:55

Chawla stepping up and really being vocal

33:57

and sort of pushing against all of

33:59

the and really encouraging men.

34:01

But if we don't get more men like

34:03

him standing up, it's not going to

34:05

work. It is literally a man's

34:08

problem and we women don't

34:10

have the solution for it. We can't do

34:12

it. Part of me thinks it's going to be generational.

34:15

I became a mother last year to

34:17

a son and I am taking that

34:19

really seriously. I plan on raising my

34:22

son to become a good

34:25

feminist man. Part

34:28

of me is like, is that how we

34:30

change this? By raising good men to take

34:33

the place of the

34:35

bad ones? Am I being a bit

34:37

hyperbolic there? No, I don't

34:39

think so. I think that that's always

34:41

been a discussion that women have been

34:43

having wanting to raise sons who are

34:45

good people and who are feminist allies

34:47

and who are women allies and who

34:50

just treat women with basic respect, treat

34:52

other people with basic respect. The

34:55

thing is, if we're going to rely on that

34:57

change, we need all women doing it and again,

34:59

it comes down to women making the

35:01

change. That's the thing. Shocking right. I

35:03

know. Dads need to be part of this

35:05

process as well. My God, dads are dads.

35:07

They're a parent. They're not a babysitter. They

35:10

need to be part of this. They need to

35:12

influence and kids look after their dads and they

35:14

mimic their dads. But as

35:16

long as we also have people

35:18

like Andrew Tate being platformed, those

35:21

kind of people, young men who might

35:23

be a bit disenfranchised or just not

35:25

quite comfortable with where they're at or

35:27

looking for a hero or looking for

35:29

someone who speaks to them, as long

35:31

as they're turning to people like this

35:34

and as long as there are people

35:36

like this with big media platforms and

35:38

big voices, it's really a

35:40

struggle because the dynamic that good parents

35:42

are passing on to their kids can

35:45

be erased by that other dynamic

35:48

in the schoolyard, on social media,

35:50

at the pub, if a

35:53

clash of cultures in a way. But

35:56

as I say, I always say, you know, if

35:59

men can... be the change makers,

36:01

we have a lot more hope

36:03

of success. If men can

36:05

drown out the voices of Andrew Tate with

36:07

positivity. That's the way, Ford. Yeah,

36:09

I don't know the answer. How

36:13

do you feel, because this month is

36:16

domestic and family violence prevention month. We've got a

36:18

lot of these kinds of days and months that

36:20

kind of go throughout the year. How do you

36:22

feel about this? Because it's come at

36:24

a very strange time. We're rallying on

36:26

the streets. We're having an unprecedented number of women

36:29

dying. It kind

36:31

of feels like the month comes around and you're like,

36:33

well, we have this every

36:35

year, but is it actually doing anything? It's not

36:37

changing. Yeah. I'd say

36:39

this for the 16 days against gendered

36:41

violence as well later in the year.

36:44

Every day should be a

36:47

day for the end of

36:49

domestic and family violence, for the end of violence

36:51

against women, for the end of gendered violence. This

36:53

is a thing that we need to work on

36:55

every day. We cannot compartmentalize it to four weeks

36:57

or 16 days or one day.

36:59

It needs to be something that is

37:01

forefront on many minds

37:04

every day. Policymakers, government,

37:06

community leaders, men, women, we

37:08

just all need to be

37:11

working on this every day.

37:15

Do you think it's still important to have these moments

37:17

though, for the people that aren't thinking

37:19

about this every day? Because a lot of

37:21

people don't. It's not front of mind, but

37:23

having something like a DV awareness day, having

37:25

that ad on the TV or having

37:28

that interview on the radio, surely it's

37:30

better to have these days and months

37:32

than not have them. We

37:34

need to take what we can get, right? Yeah. We've

37:37

got to take what we can get.

37:39

Also, during family violence months, there are

37:42

a lot of memorials held and that's

37:44

a really important thing for people who've

37:46

lost a loved one and people impacted

37:48

by abuse. That is really important and

37:50

I would never, ever take away from

37:52

that. But if we were able to

37:54

normalise this as an everyday conversation, especially

37:57

in the media, if it wasn't a

37:59

normal part of our conversation. conversation, a

38:01

part of our media process and we

38:03

could extend the change throughout

38:05

the year and hopefully have a bigger

38:07

impact. So yeah, we should always

38:09

be able to have the special days and the special

38:11

months to focus and

38:14

remembering and calls for change.

38:16

But also let's have these conversations outside

38:19

of those days as well. I

38:21

want to just pick on something that you mentioned

38:23

earlier. You said that we all know

38:25

the drivers behind violence

38:28

against women and children. For those that might

38:30

not be aware of them, can you take us through them? What

38:32

are the main drivers? So the

38:34

main drivers are things like the way

38:36

that men speak about women,

38:39

demeaning them, putting them into

38:41

a really tight kind of

38:43

role like as a mother

38:45

or wife. There's the ownership

38:47

of women, there's the ownership

38:49

of children. So not

38:51

letting women and children be their own people

38:53

and have their own lives and make their

38:56

own decisions. We have things like the control

38:59

factors, financial abuse and stuff like

39:01

that. The drivers are really fairly

39:03

basic and then they're compacted by

39:06

the factors. So we know that when

39:08

people use drugs or alcohol, have

39:11

gambling, addictions, mental health problems, that

39:13

they can be factors in violence

39:15

against women and children. So drivers

39:18

need societal change. Factors need government

39:20

change. I guess is the easiest

39:23

way to put it. You

39:25

do need funding to highlight drivers and

39:27

raise awareness about them and push them,

39:29

but it's actually an all of society

39:31

change that's needed. So the way that

39:33

all of society thinks about women, but

39:36

most importantly, the way that men

39:38

view women. Women are equals, children

39:40

are equals, they're not objects. The

39:42

factors, on the other hand, we

39:44

need more money for mental health

39:47

services. We need obviously more money

39:49

for everything. We need better bail

39:51

laws. We need better criminal legislation.

39:53

There's so much. So there's the tangible

39:56

and the intangible. take

40:00

because I feel like I always need a snappy

40:02

answer to this. You might have

40:04

one. Probably not. Not all

40:06

men. What do you say to

40:09

that? It's not all men. I'm sure you've

40:11

had it said to you before. Oh,

40:13

never. My answer

40:15

to that is most definitely not all

40:17

men, but almost always a man. I

40:20

don't think it can be any clearer than that. Do

40:23

you think we will see tangible

40:26

change in our lifetimes when

40:28

it comes to this issue? I

40:31

think we'll see more younger men stepping

40:33

up and being more aware of what's

40:36

going on and being more respectful and

40:38

kind and that sort of stuff. I

40:40

think we'll see a lot more women being

40:42

angry, but do I think that

40:44

this is going to end in my lifetime? It

40:46

won't. I'm 53 and things are

40:48

much the same as they were when I was

40:51

three. So not a

40:53

lot has changed. I

40:55

know that this is not a topic that has

40:58

a lot of hope, but I'm trying to grasp

41:00

at it. Where

41:02

do listeners go from here? What can

41:04

they actually do today to help? They

41:08

can reach out to organisations,

41:10

see if organisations need support,

41:12

volunteers, funding. They

41:14

can get involved. There's a lot

41:17

of organisations running petitions at the moment, so sign

41:19

a petition if it speaks to your heart. Join

41:21

a rally. Start a social

41:24

media campaign. Speak to your mates. Check

41:26

in on the women in your life. Make sure they're

41:28

okay. Work with children

41:30

in terms of respect and kindness

41:33

and stuff like that. I

41:35

don't think that anyone should give

41:37

up hope, but I think that

41:39

we need to be realistic and

41:41

that we need to really work

41:43

towards finding preventions and support services

41:46

and funding to at least

41:48

try to save some lives.

41:52

And Charelle, do you think you will ever stop counting?

41:55

I don't plan on yet.

41:57

No, I consider it. It's a long-term thing.

42:00

I think it'll be going on for a few

42:02

years. Thank you for

42:04

all of the work you've been doing there. We really

42:06

appreciate it. Thanks so much for having

42:08

me. I appreciate that too. Thanks

42:15

to Shirell for joining us on today's episode.

42:17

You can find a link to her Red

42:19

Hearts campaign and the Australian Femicide Watch in

42:21

our show notes. Stay

42:23

with us this month as we

42:25

revisit stories from our archives highlighting

42:27

some of Australia's most shocking cases

42:29

of domestic and family violence. And

42:32

if this episode has brought up anything for you or

42:34

you just feel like you need to speak to someone,

42:36

please call 1-800-RESPECT-1-800-737-732. True

42:43

Crime Conversations is a Mamma Mia podcast

42:45

hosted and produced by me, Gemma Baff,

42:47

with audio design by Scott Stroneck. Our

42:50

executive producer is Gia Moylan. Thanks

42:52

so much for listening. I'll be back next week. Thank

42:58

you.