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Hi, True Crime Daily listeners. I've got

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a bonus for you in the feed

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today. It's a show I think you're

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going to love called, We Can Do

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Hard Things. We all

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do hard things every day.

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Things like loving and losing,

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caring for children and parents,

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forging and ending relationships, battling

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addiction, illness and loneliness, but

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often struggle in silence. That's

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where Glennon Doyle, her wife

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Abby Wambach and sister Amanda

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Doyle come in. Twice

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a week, the three, with help

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from guests like Jane Fonda, Oprah

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Winfrey and the former first lady

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Michelle Obama, strive to find light

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in darkness. They laugh, cry and

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help each other carry the hard

0:44

in hopes of living a bit

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braver and less alone. I'm excited

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to bring you a listen into

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an episode from cult recovery advocate,

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Sarah Edmondson. Sarah joins Glennon and

0:56

Abby to talk about her path

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from Nexium top recruiter to

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the whistleblower who helped take down

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the cult and its leader, Keith

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Ranieri. Take a listen. Welcome

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to We Can Do Hard Things.

1:11

This is going to be a

1:13

fascinating episode. Today, I want you

1:15

all to know that we

1:18

are going to talk about some hard things, one

1:20

being cults and

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other organizations who are, as

1:25

our guests would say, a

1:27

little bit culty, including detailed

1:29

discussion of cult culture and

1:32

sexual coercion. Now, I

1:34

want you all to

1:36

understand that I am slightly obsessed

1:38

with cults and high control groups

1:40

and Nexium

1:42

really got me. Here's the

1:44

thing. I don't look

1:46

at it as like a salacious,

1:49

how could you get involved in this situation when

1:51

I watch this stuff or learn about this stuff?

1:54

I think of it as a way

1:57

we can all learn about

2:00

how control groups work and

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how mind control works

2:04

and how, you know, all

2:07

you have to do is look at

2:09

our country and the divisiveness and see

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how people can control other people's thinking,

2:13

smart people, seeker people, and the effects that

2:16

that has and how we are all, a

2:18

lot of us are in groups that are

2:20

a little bit culty. Yeah. Okay.

2:22

That was Sarah. Absolutely. Sarah Edmondson

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is an actor, podcaster, author, and

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cult recovery advocate. Sarah has starred

2:29

in a number of TV series,

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yet she is most recently known

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for her real life saga, escaping

2:35

the multi-level marketing company. Important

2:37

to note that that's what they

2:39

really are. Nexium and DUS, a

2:42

secret sisterhood within Nexium, which can

2:44

also be seen on HBO's The

2:46

Vow. Watch it. Abil and I

2:48

may have watched it twice. The entire

2:50

thing twice. Sarah's memoir,

2:53

Scard, shares her true story

2:55

from the moment she joined Nexium to her

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harrowing fight to get out and bring its

2:59

founder to justice. Sarah co-hosts

3:02

the podcast, A Little Bit Culty,

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with her husband, Anthony Nippy Ames.

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Nippy and Abil and I go

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way back. I mean, we probably

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said my time was the same way. I mean, you have. I

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think it's true. And lives in

3:15

Atlanta with her husband and two sons.

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Sarah, thank you for joining us. Thank

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you so much for having me. I have to

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say this has been in my

3:24

virtual vision board for a

3:26

very long time, probably since Suntamed came out.

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And I just knew that we

3:31

would talk one day. I didn't know when, but I

3:33

felt it and I visualized it

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and fantasized about it.

3:38

And to have it come through

3:40

like this is truly very meaningful.

3:42

And I'm grateful to be

3:44

here. I'm going to try not cry too much. You

3:47

don't have to try. Yeah, we do crying

3:49

a lot here. Let's go back,

3:51

Sarah, to I would love to spend

3:53

some time talking about specifics of what

3:56

happened to you and then what happened

3:58

to them because of you. which

4:00

is amazing. And then let's

4:02

get into how we can all freaking

4:04

learn from this experience. This

4:07

is a meaningful Venn diagram for me

4:09

because Untamed is largely

4:11

about how do we create

4:13

lives and relationships and families

4:15

and communities where people are

4:17

held by belonging but also

4:20

free. Because in so many groups,

4:22

we are not just cult cults but

4:25

like all groups. We

4:27

have organized human beings in a way where we

4:29

get to choose our individuality or choose our belonging.

4:31

But we often don't get to do both

4:33

in families, in churches, in companies.

4:37

So this is a fascinating conversation

4:39

to me and I think specifically to this

4:41

pad. So long ago, in the

4:44

olden days of yore, you were

4:46

living in Vancouver, you were a struggling

4:48

actor, you were setting all your intentions, you

4:50

were a seeker and a half like me

4:52

and Abby, seeking, seeking,

4:55

where's my purpose, where's my people? And

4:58

you go on a cruise. Yes. And

5:00

then tell us about what happens. Probably

5:03

also listening to the Indigo Girls. Right,

5:05

of course. Yes. So

5:08

I'm going to this cruise with my boyfriend at the

5:10

time who I'd also been struggling

5:12

with, like is this the guy I'm gonna marry or are

5:14

we gonna work through our stuff? What's

5:16

my purpose? All the things he just said so beautifully.

5:19

And I meet Mark Fisunde, the director of What the Bleep

5:21

Do We Know, which at the time, in

5:23

the yonder days of yore, it's 2005. This

5:26

is when this was a really big film

5:28

and it was a film that shifted consciousness.

5:31

My favorite movie. She loved that. Yeah, okay.

5:35

There you go. And I had set the intention

5:37

of going on this cruise and finding my purpose and

5:39

knew I was gonna be with a bunch of spiritual

5:41

people. And I was

5:44

seated across from him where

5:47

I basically had a conversation with him

5:49

that changed the whole trajectory of my life. And

5:51

he had just come from an

5:53

exeum training himself. He wasn't a coach or anything,

5:55

but he had been a student and had a

5:57

profound experience. And Asked me a couple of questions.

6:00

Russians that shifted. My.

6:02

Belief System around. Love

6:04

and Attention and has. I've been really sick and

6:06

I had this recognition or if they will call

6:08

it an integration and a ha l. I was

6:11

just trying to get love and attention from my

6:13

boyfriend for sicknesses just how I got it from

6:15

my mother and that's an old pattern and blah

6:17

blah blah. And in

6:19

the mix of this one week by the

6:21

way it was in the Caribbean So this

6:24

beautiful surroundings and allosphere, so people and I'm

6:26

looking for my purpose and Mark the sent

6:28

a basically tells me about a group of

6:30

humanitarians that are change trying to change the

6:32

world and we're all doing these. Incredible

6:34

projects and. The. Main

6:36

thing that drew me to him wedding and so

6:39

much about like I know he mentioned Keith a

6:41

leader who is the smartest man in the world

6:43

go by That didn't draw me, it was the

6:45

community or so I thought. I'd found Michael Facts

6:47

and I was. you know, so excited about that

6:50

else. I really loved him. I really. Look,

6:53

I looked up to Mark and I thought

6:55

that if I did transition from the kind

6:57

of fluffy acting that I've been doing to

6:59

pay the bills and to media that shifts

7:01

consciousness as much as with him than that

7:03

would be more meaningful. That's really what I

7:05

wanted to do. So she could have really

7:07

told me that he was doing anything and

7:09

I would have been like I'm on board.

7:12

I want to work with you. I want

7:14

to do what you're doing. And that was

7:16

the. Beginning. Of. Com.

7:18

Him Interesting, it's executive success programs which

7:20

at we didn't refer to it as

7:23

next him at the time as E

7:25

S P and I really jumped in

7:27

my head on my website and Oliver

7:29

my room at the time leap in

7:31

the net will appear so I was

7:34

doing that and not researching just something.

7:36

I recommend everybody now they're good to

7:38

know a group research and. That

7:41

the net did appear for some time, but.

7:44

Then. It disappeared. So you go to

7:46

a D S P executive tell me

7:48

with another knew what that meant. Low

7:50

yeah Executive success Training Okay is like

7:52

executive success program is a training okay

7:54

to as you'd like. yes it is

7:56

straining. Of the scales is gonna

7:59

human potential program yeah I to

8:01

tell us what happens at the

8:03

first meeting with what what what

8:05

are they saying what are you

8:07

feeling I believed I was taking

8:09

a training that would upgrade my

8:12

software, upgrade my belief system in

8:14

a conversation, conversational, philosophical, and taking

8:16

a personal and professional development program

8:18

in a Holiday Inn. With

8:20

a group of. Like minded individuals.

8:24

That's not what a cult lox I too

8:26

am white robes and drinking blood, and all

8:28

the weird thing is that we used to

8:30

think of of cops. There were

8:32

where it's weird thing of on day one

8:34

and luckily Mark head preempted me and said

8:36

it's gonna be weird I took. This is

8:38

my experience is very strange but you know

8:40

wait till they three and everything will make

8:42

sense and also the leaders were. I've

8:45

since learned trained by Keith and

8:48

Nancy the leadership to preempt our

8:50

visceral our gut reactions to the

8:52

things that were sad and bron

8:55

namely sashes been going to somebody

8:57

had never met named Vanguard having

9:00

to call Matt see the Prefect

9:02

All of these things now knowing

9:04

what I now are. Very

9:07

very obvious red flag. But they

9:09

said you're here, You know you

9:11

paid your money. Not refundable. Is

9:15

when you're and I think you she than said

9:17

something like on it which when you agree that

9:19

all successful people have limitations and they know their

9:22

limitations in there wanting to work on them. Is

9:24

a yeah sure that your it like that's the first left and

9:26

they say okay great So what are your. Limitations.

9:29

To that Now you've already admitted you have

9:31

limitations. And and then there's the preempt of

9:33

when you hit your limitations. When you hit

9:35

an area of growth, it's gonna be uncomfortable.

9:37

Which is also true. Have been in therapy,

9:39

it's uncomfortable or works for your shit. So.

9:42

Were. We. Are agree to I And

9:44

this isn't when you hit up against a shit you're going on

9:46

one a bolt year and a wanna flourish you're gonna want to

9:48

eat, even wanna smoke and we just ask you to stay in

9:50

the room and work through it. And

9:52

see you agree to that. But.

9:55

That's tricky because I had so many

9:57

impulses to leave because it didn't feel

9:59

right. But he

10:01

my money nice. I trusted Mark and I

10:03

was committed to my growth since and we

10:05

said before every class clap we are committed

10:07

to our success with M Timid, my success

10:10

and sure to grow. This isn't feel right

10:12

but no pain no gain and then amongst

10:14

the through it. And.

10:16

So that was. The beginning

10:18

of my indoctrination rate from day

10:20

one. Accepting that. Somebody. Above

10:22

me in the structure. So this martial arts

10:24

structure of growth which has been other thing

10:26

is that eventually appeal to me especially coming

10:28

from acting where there's no measurement. Now I

10:30

can measure my growth and if I did

10:32

one thing I could get expected outcome and

10:34

I loved that. But in that structure the

10:36

person above you in the ranking system is

10:38

better than use that as. Immediate.

10:41

Power Over which is none of the

10:43

red flags that I am now subjugating

10:45

my own belief about myself and my

10:48

own knowing about myself to at somebody

10:50

else he the nose And that's that

10:52

set me up for the rest of

10:54

my time there and them mean of

10:56

the eventual demise of. Me:

10:59

As a leader and then ultimately the program.

11:02

If you want to hear more from Glennon. Abbey

11:04

and Amanda's conversation with Sarah

11:06

Edmondson Hard Over to move.

11:08

We can do hard things.

11:10

Episode One Fifty Seven: If

11:12

you're likely to hear, join

11:14

Them and guess like Tracy,

11:16

Alice Ross, Gloria Steinem, Elizabeth

11:18

Gilbert, Brandi, Carlile and Burn

11:21

A Brown every Tuesday and

11:23

Thursday on the Free Odyssey.

11:25

Up and everywhere you get

11:27

your podcast.