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1:43

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1:45

True Crime Daily taking you inside the

1:47

courtrooms of high profile and notorious cases

1:49

from across the country. I'm your host,

1:52

Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal

1:54

defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously

1:56

an LA County prosecutor for nearly a decade.

1:58

You can find me on the website, on

2:00

Instagram and Twitter at

2:02

JoshuaRitterESQ or at joshuaritter.com.

2:05

We're recording this on Thursday, February 1st,

2:07

2024. In

2:10

this week's episode, a possible conclusion to

2:12

a mystery two decades in the making

2:15

as two men face trial for the

2:17

murder of beloved DJ

2:19

Jam Master Jay. Plus

2:21

tensions flare between Jennifer Crumbly's defense and

2:23

prosecutors as trial continues for the mother

2:26

accused of failing to intervene in the

2:28

deadly actions of her school shooter

2:30

son. But first in

2:32

a move that left many courtroom

2:35

observers in shock this week, a

2:37

South Carolina judge slammed the door

2:39

on Alex Murdoch's best shot for

2:41

a new trial. Despite one juror

2:43

admitting that she was improperly influenced

2:46

today, we're very excited to be joined by

2:48

Gigi McKelvie, host of the

2:50

popular true crime podcast, Pretty Lies

2:52

and Alibis and a friend of

2:54

the show. Gigi, welcome back. Good

2:57

to be here. Thanks for having me again. Gigi

3:01

I know that you follow a lot

3:04

of these cases closely, but one case

3:06

in particular is a case

3:08

that you have unique access to. I'll put

3:10

it that way. And that is what has

3:12

been going on in Walterborough, South

3:14

Carolina. I'm so glad that we have

3:16

you on the show, especially after this

3:18

huge hearing that just took place.

3:22

I have some thoughts on

3:24

it, but want to hear your thoughts on it,

3:26

especially because you were in court for

3:28

a lot of, uh, not a lot

3:30

for this hearing for everything that's taken place

3:32

through much of this trial. Uh,

3:35

let's just give some people some background.

3:37

Alex Murdoch's plea for a new trial

3:39

hit a dead end this week after

3:41

a judge denied the disgraced lawyer a

3:44

shot at a new trial. This despite

3:46

allegations of jury tampering Murdoch's defense faced

3:48

an uphill battle as they were required

3:50

to demonstrate that County

3:52

Clerk Rebecca Hill, not only

3:55

inappropriately interacted with jurors, but

3:57

that these interactions unfairly.

4:00

prejudiced the jurors in their verdict.

4:03

One of the 11 jurors testified that

4:05

not only did Hill make inappropriate comments

4:07

but that her actions influenced the jurors

4:09

vote saying Hill made it seem like

4:12

he was already guilty. Shockingly

4:14

this argument was ultimately unsuccessful

4:16

with the judge. Hill

4:18

who also testified claimed that she

4:20

never spoke about the case or

4:23

Murdoch to jurors though the judge

4:25

questioned her credibility amid Hill's recent

4:27

plagiarism scandal regarding the book she

4:29

wrote chronicling her experience

4:31

on the trial. Another

4:34

county clerk Rhonda McElvin who

4:37

worked with Hill also testified that Hill

4:39

approached her about writing an account of

4:41

the case insinuating that

4:43

a guilty verdict would sell

4:46

more books and her

4:48

final ruling the judge reasoned that

4:50

she couldn't overturn the verdict on

4:52

the basis of some quote fleeting

4:54

and foolish comments by a publicity

4:56

seeking clerk of court. All

4:59

right Gigi first of all tell

5:01

us what it was like inside of the

5:04

the courtroom. Tell us what was the feeling

5:06

what was the atmosphere how did people react

5:08

to all of this? It

5:11

was tense it might have been one of

5:13

the craziest hearings I've ever sat in. I

5:15

mean you you have such a unique situation

5:17

where the roles are reversed so

5:19

last year Alec Murdoch was on the stand

5:21

in front of these jurors and now these

5:23

jurors are in front of him giving their

5:25

testimony into what could potentially get him a

5:27

new trial and so we were

5:29

all nervous for these jurors we kind of

5:31

see them smile at them you know know

5:33

them over the course of six weeks. I've

5:36

been in touch with some since the trial and

5:38

to see them in that hot seat with him

5:40

looking at every single one of them from

5:42

the moment they walked in as a group and

5:44

got their instruction he kept his eye

5:46

on them you could see someone nervously looking over

5:49

in his direction and they knew they were going

5:51

to have to get on that stand and say

5:53

that was my verdict that still is

5:55

my verdict and walk out that door with

5:58

the exception of that one which was the

6:00

first juror that testified that day the Friday

6:02

before we had the one juror who came

6:04

in due to a scheduling conflict who just

6:06

said the same thing that the other 11

6:09

did the other day which is or the

6:11

other 10 which is I wasn't

6:13

influenced a couple of heard things but

6:15

that first juror first thing

6:17

in the morning gets up yes I was

6:19

influenced there were audible gasps in the courtroom

6:21

we all looked around at each other and

6:24

thought that's it he's getting a new trial

6:26

it takes one yeah yeah

6:29

that is incredible I mean it you know

6:31

I you look for the reaction you it

6:33

was hard to hear the reaction so I'm

6:35

glad that you were able to tell us

6:37

about it from the courtroom but the cameras

6:39

were focused on him and I didn't

6:43

see as much of a reaction out of him as I

6:45

thought because to me that was kind

6:47

of earth shattering that she said I mean the

6:50

the words I felt like she felt

6:53

he was already guilty to me that

6:55

was it and that was enough but

6:58

the judge didn't see it that way so

7:00

that now take us to the moment where

7:02

the judge is making her ruling what was

7:05

your reaction what were other folks reaction at

7:07

that point when she basically said I heard

7:10

what that juror said but I don't think that's

7:13

enough and she kind of pointed back to

7:15

an affidavit she had written previously talk to

7:17

tell us about that right

7:19

and the other thing before I get

7:22

into Judge toll's decision is this juror

7:24

also said that the other jurors discussed

7:26

the case before deliberations I was

7:28

really surprised that was not investigated further by the

7:30

defense by the state by the judge that was

7:32

sort of just swept under the rug as soon

7:34

as it was said so that was

7:36

shocking but in the beginning when Judge toll

7:39

was giving her decision it

7:41

almost sounded to us like she was gonna grant him

7:43

a new trial she's going through the

7:45

law we think oh here it comes you

7:47

know round two trial of the century is gonna

7:49

get a redo and as she

7:51

went on with her decision it became clear

7:54

she wasn't you kind of saw Murda just

7:57

exhale kind of maybe with

7:59

that hope that that with that one juror,

8:01

he was gonna get that new trial he

8:03

wanted but then it became clear she wasn't

8:05

gonna do it. We were all pretty shocked

8:07

to be honest with you that it wasn't

8:11

it didn't end in a new trial for him

8:13

because you do have that one juror although I

8:16

understand Judge Tolles opinion too.

8:19

I mean she's 80, she's a Supreme Court Justice,

8:21

I'm not so I trust her opinion on it

8:23

but the thing is that

8:25

when you have a juror say

8:27

that the other jurors were discussing

8:30

the case before it went to deliberations, to

8:33

me I think that's gonna be one of the first things

8:35

when they send this to a higher court that they're gonna

8:37

bring up because that would just wasn't

8:39

even touched but we all there was

8:41

a mixture of shock I think a

8:43

lot of the public was relieved because

8:45

he's not a popular man anywhere

8:48

in the country or the world especially here

8:50

in South Carolina. But

8:52

for those of us that have sat through and

8:54

heard the law and heard the evidence for six

8:56

weeks solid, we all really

8:59

were shocked that it was

9:01

denied. Yeah you make

9:03

an important point that the let's

9:05

not skip over the fact that they

9:08

were talking about this case beforehand which

9:10

they are instructed daily not

9:12

to do. I've been

9:14

in trial and it's an

9:17

instruction that's given no matter how short the

9:19

break is taken in court. There's

9:21

always they call it the admonition.

9:23

Please remember the admonition not to

9:26

discuss this amongst yourselves, don't begin

9:28

your deliberations, don't discuss this with

9:30

anybody else and

9:32

it's not just formalities

9:34

it goes to

9:36

and I think that's why this ruling

9:38

bothers me so much is

9:40

it goes to the absolute core of

9:43

our criminal justice system which

9:45

is fairness which

9:48

is the presumption of innocence which

9:50

is the idea that everybody

9:52

is going to get a completely fair

9:55

shot and no one's got their finger

9:57

on the scales and you see

9:59

a case like this. And

10:01

I think a lot of people who were not

10:03

troubled by this decision are thinking to

10:06

themselves, well, he's a murderer, he killed

10:08

his wife and son, I'm

10:11

not going to really lose sleep over the fact that

10:13

he's not getting another trial. I get that. But

10:16

this case is about more than that.

10:18

It's about everyone else who's ever accused

10:20

of anything. And do they would they

10:23

feel comfortable with the clerk making these

10:25

types of comments on their case? Would

10:27

they feel comfortable with a juror saying,

10:29

I felt like the clerk

10:31

was telling us he was already guilty

10:34

beforehand. That's the troubling kind of stuff.

10:37

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, we all

10:39

were kind of looking around at each other

10:41

thinking, wow, okay, so no new

10:43

trial. But I mean, it's gonna take so

10:45

long for this to work its way through

10:47

higher courts. He's got over 40 years in

10:50

prison. It's not an emergency to get this

10:52

decided on a bigger level. And I mean,

10:55

you have a former Supreme Court justice who

10:57

presided over this and rendered that decision. So

10:59

a lot of people think that

11:01

you know, she surely did her homework and using

11:04

South Carolina versus green as opposed

11:06

to Remmer, that really kind of

11:08

fine tuned the law as far as backing

11:10

her decision. I was on a show the

11:12

other night with one of Dick Harputlian former

11:15

law partners, who said that he

11:18

understood why she denied the new

11:20

trial based on South Carolina

11:22

versus green and how that reads. So it's

11:24

interesting to hear so many different opinions on

11:26

whether or not it should have happened. I

11:29

just feel like you have that admission along

11:31

with the jury potentially talking. I

11:33

was just surprised that that wasn't something that

11:35

was asked or added on to the list

11:37

of questions, like they did when we found

11:39

out the jurors were watching court TV and

11:42

watching that first juror admit on the

11:44

stand that she felt influenced by

11:46

Becky Hill. That was added on at the last

11:48

minute. That was the first question the judge asked.

11:51

I kind of felt like maybe it

11:53

should have been an additional question. Did

11:55

you ever hear anybody talk about this

11:57

case outside of deliberation? man,

12:00

that was just something that just got lost in the

12:02

ether in there, I guess. No,

12:04

you bring up a really

12:06

good point. Listen, I understand what

12:09

the law is. And I understand

12:11

where the judge placed her decision

12:13

in all of this. And I

12:15

understand too, that we can't have

12:18

a system that goes back and continue

12:20

to revisit cases that eventually you're going

12:22

to have to say the jury has

12:24

spoken, this is their verdict. But

12:27

in a case where, and listen, like

12:29

you just pointed out, it's not easy

12:32

for these people to get up and

12:34

testify about what they had gone through and

12:36

about their thinking. And you have a juror here,

12:38

who I think

12:40

it would have been much easier to say, no, I

12:42

wasn't influenced by anything. But she had the guts

12:45

to say, I was

12:47

influenced to some extent, I did

12:49

feel like the clerk

12:51

was letting us know this person is guilty. My

12:54

problem isn't how the judge came

12:57

to her decision. My problem is that they

12:59

didn't flesh that out further. And like you

13:01

said, she should have

13:04

been open to questioning by the defense to

13:06

me at that point. What do

13:08

you mean by you were influenced? What do you

13:10

mean by you felt like he was already guilty?

13:13

Do you feel that that put,

13:16

if you had any doubts, do you think

13:18

that that changed your feeling on

13:20

those doubts, those simple words that the

13:22

clerk said to you, all of that is

13:25

stuff that I think should have been explored

13:27

before putting this to rest.

13:29

And you're right, he'll get a he'll get an

13:31

opportunity at appeal, but that this

13:33

was the this was the moment to

13:35

explore that. And I think that was

13:37

forever lost by kind of the very

13:40

confined and strict questioning

13:43

by the judge. What are your thoughts?

13:46

Yeah, I agree. And not only that, but

13:48

if you remember, I believe it was after

13:50

all the jurors had given their testimony, there

13:52

was an email from Joe McCullough, who represented

13:54

Jersey, who was the one that said she

13:56

was influenced, saying that she wanted to expand

13:59

on her testimony. and Judge Toll said

14:01

that she was not getting another bite of the

14:03

apple. And I was thinking and believe me I'm

14:05

not as sympathetic to Alec Murdock.

14:07

I don't think he's a good human for

14:09

a lot of reasons but at the same

14:11

time this juror looked very nervous on the

14:13

stand trying to keep it together but you

14:15

could see that you know she's she knows

14:18

this is being watched around the world this

14:20

is of high interest and she was the

14:22

one person that went in there and said

14:24

yeah actually I do feel

14:26

like I was influenced whether or not

14:28

she was too intimidated at the time to

14:30

bring it to the attention of the judge maybe she

14:32

didn't want Becky Hill to get in trouble maybe she

14:34

thought she would get in trouble but

14:37

you know time to me doesn't

14:40

necessarily I don't think there's a cutoff date for

14:42

you to be able to say things out loud

14:44

that maybe at the time you couldn't or in

14:46

the year almost year since the verdict you didn't

14:48

say but if she's saying it now

14:50

I just really felt like it should have been

14:53

investigated further do I think Murdock is guilty I

14:55

don't see any way he's not but

14:57

for those of us who the entire

14:59

judicial process you have to

15:01

have faith in it and so you have to wonder

15:03

was this just sort of left hanging I

15:05

mean was this just kind of a we don't

15:07

want to make South Carolina look bad we don't

15:10

want this to come back or admit there were

15:12

flaws in the system there are other issues I

15:14

think during the course of the trial that'll come

15:16

up on appeal which you know was paused for

15:18

this it's just going to be interesting I don't

15:20

think we've seen the last of him I think

15:22

this is going to continue to be something we

15:24

see in the news every now and then but

15:27

yeah his defense attorneys I think have some

15:29

fuel to go higher and I think they

15:31

will they're very much not only are they

15:33

his attorneys they they're his friend and they've

15:35

been his friend for many many years so

15:37

I think it's a personal thing for them

15:39

as well and I think they are

15:41

convinced he didn't do it they're going to

15:43

fight until they can't fight to try to

15:45

get that murder conviction at least to a new trial

15:48

yeah no you're right this wasn't

15:51

about Murdoch's guilt or innocence at all this

15:53

was about the integrity of the system and

15:55

I think it left us with a bad

15:57

taste in our mouth as to the integrity

16:00

of this system. Like you said, what's

16:03

what are we in a rush for here? What's

16:05

the big hurry? If this person has more to

16:07

add and they want to say something

16:09

more about it, I

16:11

think it was Murdoch's attorney at one

16:13

point and I think it was regarding this exact

16:16

issue, stood up and said what are we hiding

16:18

from the truth? I just want the truth to

16:20

come out here. If you've got

16:22

the defense attorney standing up in court saying

16:24

I want to hear the truth, let's let's

16:26

flesh that out. That's all that we're here

16:29

to figure out. You're

16:31

now stepping into bizarro land where you've

16:34

got the prosecution and the judge trying

16:36

to shut down further inquiry as to

16:38

what exactly took place. It's

16:40

a bad look. End of the day, no matter

16:43

how you come out on it, I think it's a bad look.

16:46

Yeah and I think too, you know one

16:48

thing that I've thought about since Monday and

16:50

and watching that juror testify is sometimes the

16:52

hardest part is getting that first bit out

16:54

of your mouth and making that public and

16:56

so maybe that was liberating for her in

16:59

a way to where she kind of peeled

17:01

the band-aid off really quickly and

17:03

then it's like yeah I know other things and

17:05

now that I've done the worst part, I would

17:07

like to tell more and that door was just

17:09

shut. Or maybe she thought there

17:12

would be more questioning. Hey I just dropped

17:14

a bomb in the middle of this courtroom,

17:16

go ahead and ask some follow-up questions and

17:18

didn't realize the judge is working off a

17:20

very confined script and that was

17:22

all she was going to be able to say about

17:24

the whole thing. Really, really important

17:27

points that you're bringing up about this but

17:29

you're right. I mean this really closes the door

17:31

on it and we may hear more about this

17:33

but it probably won't be until years from now.

17:36

Yeah I think you know

17:38

Mr. Harputlian's former law partner said you

17:40

know this could be five, six, seven years before

17:42

there's a true resolution to this

17:45

issue. Yeah and a lot

17:47

of people have pointed out since then that hey

17:49

you know even if he got a new trial

17:51

he's still looking at decades in prison for the

17:54

financial crimes. Not the point, not the

17:56

point. Again the point is the integrity of

17:58

the system and I think it's It was

18:00

left with a black mark after

18:02

what took place in court the other day.

18:04

So thank you for giving us those insights

18:07

of what it was like in the courtroom.

18:09

And I imagine when you describe it as

18:11

tense, I imagine that's putting it lightly. I

18:13

think my blood pressure is still elevated for Monday.

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19:38

move to New York City where

19:40

trial is underway this week for

19:42

two men charged with killing Jam

19:44

Master Jay of Run DMC fame,

19:46

perhaps drawing a conclusion and the

19:48

long unsolved murder. Jay

19:51

born Jason Mazzell was gunned down in

19:53

his recording studio in 2002 in what

19:55

prosecutors alleged

19:57

was a drug dispute despite the DJ.

20:00

being known as an anti-drug advocate.

20:02

Carl Jordan Jr. and Ronald Washington

20:04

were both arrested in 2020 and

20:06

will be tried together in the

20:09

slaying, while a third defendant will

20:11

face trial separately. Prosecutors claim that

20:13

their case against Jordan and Washington

20:15

was bolstered in the last five

20:18

years, with new witnesses willing to

20:20

come forward along with improved ballistic

20:22

testing. Allegedly, Jay cut

20:24

Jordan and Washington out of a

20:27

plan to distribute some 10 kilograms

20:29

of cocaine in Maryland, causing

20:31

the men to seek retribution. Complicating

20:34

the case for prosecutors is their concern

20:36

that some witnesses have become hesitant to

20:38

testify and may even lie under oath

20:40

for fear of retaliation. Defense attorneys for

20:42

the men argued that the state has

20:45

no direct evidence linking the men to

20:47

the crime and that the entire case

20:49

is built on vague memories from over

20:51

two decades ago. If convicted,

20:53

the defendants could face a minimum

20:55

of 20 years in prison. G.G.,

20:59

in many cases, when

21:01

we see a break in these

21:03

long, quote, unsolved

21:05

mergers, it has to do with

21:07

witnesses finally deciding to come forward

21:09

for one reason or another.

21:11

My question is, how

21:14

do you think that will sit

21:17

with jurors? You have people who've

21:19

remained silent for so long. Do

21:22

you think that that calls into

21:24

question their veracity with jurors? I

21:27

really don't think so. I think we've all heard

21:29

what happens to snitches and jurors

21:31

can use their common sense. So you

21:33

have these suspects who allegedly came into

21:35

a recording studio very

21:38

brazenly murdered somebody who was

21:40

a pioneer in the rap and rock

21:42

world with their work with Aerosmith. This

21:44

is somebody who's known worldwide to walk

21:46

in and shoot somebody and walk back

21:48

out. You have a witness

21:50

on the stand who an eyewitness to

21:52

the murder, emotional wiping tears, saying that

21:55

after all these years, he felt like

21:57

his family needed closure. I don't think

21:59

the jury. is going to

22:01

fault these eyewitnesses because here's the thing,

22:03

people say all memories get get bad

22:05

over the years but I think when

22:07

you see something that traumatic with your own

22:09

two eyes you bend down and you

22:11

see your friend who is lifeless on

22:13

the floor. What happened before

22:16

and after might be muddled but I think in

22:18

the moment of the murder those

22:20

are things and images and sounds and smells

22:22

you'll never get out of your head until

22:24

you take your last breath and I think

22:26

the jury can put themselves potentially in this

22:29

these people's shoes who saw this and

22:31

say I would be afraid they go

22:33

in and murder somebody who's known worldwide

22:36

why would they not come after me if I

22:38

snitch and I think the jurors are sympathetic to

22:40

that I don't think that that's going to be

22:42

anything that holds the jury at all. Well

22:45

and to your point there's has

22:48

even been safety concerns regarding not only

22:50

the witnesses but the jurors in this

22:52

case the jury's identities have been kept

22:54

secret from the lawyers even the lawyers

22:57

involved usually in a trial at least

22:59

here in California where I practice you're

23:01

provided with a list you know their

23:03

names you're never to turn that list

23:05

over and you turn that list back

23:08

into the clerk but the idea that

23:10

you would never be provided with any

23:12

identifying information on these people is not

23:16

common let's put it that way. Knowing

23:20

that some of

23:22

these witnesses are going to testify to what you

23:24

said they're kind of fear and why they didn't

23:26

can afford and perhaps other safety measures

23:29

that might be taken to protect the jurors

23:31

that the jurors are aware of do you

23:33

think that will play a role in their

23:35

heads just this kind of background

23:40

of fear surrounding everyone in this

23:42

trial? Well first off hats off

23:44

to this jury because I would just go in there and

23:46

say I've formed an opinion just to get off the jury

23:48

you know these are you

23:51

know no murder should be treated any

23:53

differently than the other there is an

23:55

element of a worldwide celebrity and just

23:57

the attention on this particular murder. long

24:00

like Tupac's that went unsolved, this is

24:02

a public interest and so yeah I'm

24:04

sure they're fearful in the back of

24:06

their minds that if we find these

24:08

these suspects guilty who associated

24:11

with them is going to come after

24:13

us or hunt us down because it

24:15

yeah I mean I would be terrified.

24:18

Hopefully the oath that they took is upheld

24:20

and that's their focus is to look at

24:22

the facts and render their verdict based on

24:24

the evidence but it you have

24:27

to wonder in the back of their minds

24:29

with this with so much security in place

24:31

to protect identities is that

24:33

something that's weighing on them we'll

24:36

see but I don't envy them to

24:38

say the least. Yeah. Gigi

24:41

my last question on this is just

24:44

kind of about these cold cases in

24:46

general. You have a

24:48

very popular podcast I've seen it

24:50

many times and I'm very interested

24:53

always to hear your thoughts and

24:55

the amount of research that you

24:57

do on these cases is unparalleled

25:00

but have you noticed I've noticed

25:02

that there's this trend

25:04

in kind of the true crime world I'll call

25:06

it where people are

25:08

so interested in these cold cases that

25:10

get broken so many years later. Why

25:13

do you think that is? I think there might be some

25:15

obvious reasons but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I

25:19

think you know like in Tupac's

25:21

case it was the suspect was

25:23

his own undoing he openly talked

25:25

about being there the night of the murder so sometimes it

25:27

comes very easily for these investigators to get

25:30

what they need but I also think that

25:32

having the public eye on these cases and

25:34

wanting resolution you know Jam Master Jay was

25:37

somebody that I grew up totally just thinking

25:39

was great just a pioneer the whole the

25:41

band was a pioneer the rap group was

25:43

a pioneer everything they did was amazing so

25:46

you have that that fan base that that

25:48

wants resolution for the person that inspired them

25:50

with the lyrics or whatever I also

25:53

think that just advances in modern technology

25:55

and how we look at evidence you

25:57

know as time goes on things become

25:59

available. in testing that wasn't

26:01

available when he was murdered. Also,

26:03

over time, eyewitnesses may soften up

26:06

to feeling like the family

26:08

needs resolution, but not only that, that, you

26:10

know, for example, this eyewitness, his friend needs

26:12

justice, and he knows who did this. In

26:14

fact, one of the killers came up to

26:17

him at the funeral and said, did you

26:19

see who did, or one of the alleged killers, said,

26:21

did you see who did this? He

26:24

said, no, can you imagine the

26:26

pressure, and that's a message of,

26:29

did you see anybody? No, okay, well,

26:31

I can understand why he didn't talk, but

26:33

over the years, as maybe you grow older,

26:36

you know, you raise your kids, you're a

26:38

father, you see what he was denied, what

26:40

your friend who got murdered was denied, and

26:42

then you want justice, and maybe time eases

26:45

some of those fears of retaliation a bit,

26:48

but maybe the quest for justice for somebody

26:50

you knew and loved is greater than the

26:52

fear you have that you might be retaliated

26:55

against, because sometimes doing the right thing isn't

26:57

easy, but it's right, and especially

26:59

for somebody who doesn't have a voice anymore,

27:02

and you're in that very small group that

27:04

can be his voice because you have information

27:06

that can put the perpetrators behind bars where

27:08

they belong and where they should have been

27:10

decades ago. So hopefully,

27:13

you know, hopefully this, I'm

27:15

very interested in this case, to say the

27:17

least, just because there is so much hanging

27:19

over the trial with how big it is

27:21

and the circumstances, so it's gonna be

27:23

one to watch for verdicts especially. Yeah,

27:26

yeah. I think

27:28

these cold cases too, one,

27:32

they're a salute to the tenacity of really

27:34

good police work, but I think

27:36

it's also this idea that justice never

27:39

sleeps. It may be delayed, but

27:41

it, eventually,

27:44

in a lot of these

27:46

cases, even decades later, that

27:49

there's gonna be that knock on the door,

27:51

and there's gonna be officers there with handcuffs.

27:55

I personally handled a case when I was in the DA's

27:57

office that was, 25

28:02

plus years old by the

28:04

time it was brought to trial and

28:07

it had to do with a couple of really

28:09

good detectives, began

28:12

to take a look at some of their unsolved crimes

28:14

in their station dusted off an

28:16

old book and had a different way of

28:18

looking at it. There was no new

28:20

science. There was no witnesses coming

28:22

forward. They just took a look at this

28:24

case a little differently than it had been

28:26

before and were able to solve a murder

28:28

that was a couple of decades old and

28:30

bring comfort to those victims. So I think

28:33

that a part of the reason and people

28:35

who follow true crime, it's that idea that

28:39

sometimes just this tenacious police work can

28:41

do incredible things. So I agree with

28:43

you though. This case is fascinating for

28:46

many reasons and we will continue to

28:48

watch it and update everyone as to

28:50

what happens in trial. I

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30:19

we move to Detroit, Michigan, where

30:21

testimony continued this week in the

30:23

landmark trial of a school shooter's

30:25

mother who faces charges for the

30:27

actions of her son. Jennifer

30:30

Crumbly faces four counts of involuntary

30:32

manslaughter for four students who were

30:34

killed in the Oxford school shooting

30:36

carried out by her son, Ethan

30:38

Crumbly. Through four days

30:41

of testimony, prosecutors have sought

30:43

to illustrate Ethan's deteriorating mental

30:45

health and his mother's alleged

30:47

failure to intervene. Drew

30:49

is heard from the Dean of Students

30:51

who met with the Crumbly's the day

30:54

of the shooting after a teacher discovered

30:56

a troubling drawing created by Ethan depicting

30:58

a pistol and the disturbing quote, help

31:01

me blood everywhere. While the Dean noted

31:03

that the parents did not take Ethan

31:05

home and warned that the child needed

31:08

immediate counseling, Crumbly's defense noted that the

31:10

parents both had to return to work.

31:12

Drew has also heard excerpts from Ethan

31:14

Crumbly's journal where he described his disturbing

31:17

thoughts and mental decline, including

31:19

the plea, I have

31:21

zero help. However, her

31:23

defense suffered another error in the

31:25

trial after joking about committing suicide

31:27

while she was struggling with the

31:30

technical aspect of her presentation. This

31:32

comment sparked debate in the emotionally

31:34

charged courtroom with prosecutors and Crumbly's

31:36

defense allegedly alleging insensitivity

31:38

towards the victims and their

31:41

families. The judge ended that

31:43

day sending everyone home as tears poured down

31:45

the face of Crumbly's defense attorney. The lawyer

31:47

later apologized to the court for her comment

31:49

the following day. Addressing

31:52

the court herself, Crumbly agreed to have

31:54

thousands of Facebook messages she exchanged with

31:56

her husband and admitted as evidence in

31:59

the ongoing. trial. Another

32:01

prosecution witness, Brian Malosh, also took

32:03

the stand revealing that Crumbly and

32:06

Malosh were having an affair at

32:08

the time of the shooting. While

32:10

evidence of the affair was inadmissible,

32:13

Crumbly agreed to allow references

32:15

to the affair after encouragement from her

32:17

attorney. While the mother is not on

32:19

trial for her infidelity, Malosh testified that

32:21

Crumbly told him that she was able

32:23

to meet up the day of the

32:25

shooting despite allegedly telling school officials that

32:27

she could not take her son home

32:30

because she needed to return to work. Crumbly's

32:33

former employer also testified, saying that

32:35

the mother would have been allowed

32:38

leave for the day if she

32:40

needed to take care of her

32:42

son. Malosh and Crumbly also exchanged

32:44

texts in the wake of the

32:46

shooting in which Crumbly alleged the

32:48

school had been, quote, nonchalant, with

32:50

concerns about Ethan's well-being and should

32:52

not have allowed him to return

32:55

to class. The trial continues

32:57

with prosecutors expected to rest their case

32:59

sometime this week and the defense

33:02

is expected to call Jennifer Crumbly to

33:04

the stand in her own defense. All

33:07

right, Gigi, a lot to unpack there.

33:10

First, I've asked this of a lot of guests.

33:12

I just want to get your reaction

33:15

to this case in general. Do you

33:17

agree with the prosecution

33:20

in even bringing this case? It's not

33:22

a, this is not your typical case

33:24

of who done it by any means.

33:27

It's a what is it? It asks the question

33:29

of not just should

33:33

these parents be held responsible, but

33:35

should any parent or

33:37

guardian be held responsible for the independent

33:40

actions of their children? And I highlight

33:42

that term independent because

33:44

there's no allegation here that

33:47

they were involved in the planning or

33:49

execution of this horrible crime, but just

33:51

that they didn't do enough to perhaps

33:54

prevent it. So go ahead. What

33:56

are your thoughts? I do think

33:58

this is the land of the law. case that

34:01

could definitely see a lot more

34:03

parents and hopefully not that we don't have

34:05

any more school shootings but they're becoming so

34:07

commonplace that I think this had to

34:09

happen because you know in this case

34:11

you have these cries for help that

34:13

were ignored. Mom was too busy with

34:15

horses with her lover too busy with

34:18

her lover to take her son home

34:20

for the day when you know look

34:22

the school the parents failed these victims and

34:25

they failed Ethan and that's why we're here.

34:27

As far as the parents being charged here's my thing

34:30

you buy him a gun you have seen

34:32

text messages that you didn't answer but he

34:34

sent you saying that things you know things

34:36

are flying around the room he only sees

34:38

things when he's alone there are clear signs

34:40

this boy is in mental distress and what

34:42

do you do you buy him a gun

34:45

and then you sign that paper acknowledging that it

34:47

is a crime to buy a gun for a

34:49

minor and then he gets in

34:51

trouble for looking up bullets mom says make sure

34:53

you don't get caught. I

34:55

think that we do have to have this conversation because

34:58

if you're going to have firearms in your house that's

35:00

your right Second Amendment protects that

35:03

right you also have the responsibility

35:05

to secure weapons from minors all

35:08

the time even if they go to the shooting range with

35:10

you here in the South kids you

35:13

know as soon as you can pick up a

35:15

shotgun you're taught how to shoot one you're also

35:17

taught gun safety and parents lock their guns up

35:19

I mean I don't think I've been in a

35:21

house that doesn't have a gun safe when

35:23

you're leaving these guns out and you're buying

35:25

them for your child you have to be

35:27

held responsible it's your job to secure a

35:29

deadly weapon in your house and

35:31

they encouraged it they bought it and

35:33

then encouraged him to be more careful

35:35

next time yes I do think when

35:37

these weapons are brought from these homes

35:40

it's on the parents because they're not

35:42

properly securing these weapons from children and

35:44

then you get families that are devastated

35:46

for the rest of their lives I'm

35:49

all for it I think it should

35:51

have happened a long time ago to be honest. You

35:53

know a lot of people agree with you I I

35:57

guess I just I'm troubled with the

35:59

idea that Listen, buying

36:01

him the grunt, awful. Not

36:04

doing enough as a parent, awful. Do

36:07

we all want to take steps to stop

36:09

these tragedies? Absolutely. But

36:12

everything that's being described to me so

36:14

far talks about neglect,

36:16

talks about bad parenting,

36:18

talks about certainly

36:22

things that should open them up to

36:25

civil liability and lawsuits and everything else.

36:27

But the part that I'm having trouble wrapping my

36:29

head around is you're talking

36:32

about a person who took independent steps.

36:34

There's evidence he hid stuff from them.

36:36

There's evidence that he certainly

36:39

went and got that done without their permission.

36:41

There's a lot of things that he did

36:43

independent that they were unaware of, at least

36:45

that's the way the evidence is playing out,

36:48

and then took it upon himself to go out

36:50

and do this. That

36:52

to me in the criminal world is where you

36:55

should say a line needs

36:57

to be drawn. Now do I think

36:59

that parents should never be prosecuted? And

37:02

no? Is this the case where

37:04

maybe the facts are enough to say that they should

37:06

be? I guess the jurors are going to

37:09

let us know. It's just you begin

37:11

to get into a world of really

37:13

slippery slopes when there's not a kind

37:15

of clear line between one person's independent

37:17

actions and another's. But

37:20

I cannot agree with you more

37:22

that they did a lot of

37:24

really awful stuff and ignored a

37:26

lot of really awful stuff. And

37:28

so it's just so

37:30

painful that this

37:32

is on the backdrop of lost lives

37:34

that we're talking about all of this. And we

37:36

certainly all agree that we want to do something

37:38

about it. If we could

37:40

change gears for a second, I just want

37:42

to talk about the defense in this case.

37:46

There have been a few

37:48

times where the defense attorney

37:50

has called

37:53

it a misstep, called it courtroom

37:55

theatrics, what have you. Now we have

37:57

this latest bit with the comments.

37:59

that's made about suicide and the crying in

38:02

court. To

38:05

me, when the personality of the

38:07

defense attorneys are becoming a

38:09

bigger part of the case than the evidence, that's a

38:11

big problem. What are your thoughts? Yeah,

38:13

I think so too. And I understand this is a big case.

38:15

We just talked about how it's kind of a one of

38:17

a kind, first of its kind case, being

38:20

live streaming to the world, but you have a job to

38:22

do. And you have to

38:24

be mindful of your position in

38:26

that courtroom. And I'm sure she

38:28

did not mean to have

38:31

that come out the way it did. At

38:33

the same time, you've got to control your emotions,

38:35

you've got to kind of just breathe in and do what

38:37

you're there to do. Defend

38:40

your client, but we've had a few things with

38:42

this defense attorney. I think a lot of it

38:44

comes down to nerves, to be honest with you.

38:46

I think that to me,

38:48

that's what I kind of read it as, is not

38:51

so much her just being a bad attorney, but just

38:53

it's a lot of pressure. And this is

38:56

a very sensitive subject. I mean, you're watching

38:58

video of these kids laying dead in

39:01

school. That's gonna affect defense attorneys, prosecutors,

39:03

doesn't matter who's in that room, but

39:05

you do have to get it together.

39:08

If our surgeons, when they're operating

39:10

on us, they're upset because of what happened to

39:12

us or what they're seeing, and that affects their

39:14

performance, I mean, that would be really bad. And

39:16

I think it kind of is the same in

39:18

a defense attorney. This is her client. She

39:21

has to do the best job for her. You

39:23

gotta leave emotions at the door. You

39:26

can't get flustered. You gotta put on your poker face because,

39:28

I mean, court was adjourned that day,

39:30

whilst precious time, witnesses lined up, had

39:32

to come back, you know, so it's

39:34

a problem. Yeah, yeah,

39:36

that's a really great analogy. This is

39:39

somebody, you have the responsibility of

39:41

some of these life in your hands, essentially.

39:44

Certainly their freedom. This

39:47

is as serious as it gets, and

39:49

when you start letting your personality or

39:51

your own emotions become the center point

39:53

of the trial, to the point that we're talking

39:56

about it, right? We're not talking, we've been talking

39:58

about the evidence, but we're also talking about. this

40:00

I think that's is a

40:02

problem. Okay

40:06

we're getting reports that she is likely

40:08

going to testify. I think she needs

40:10

to testify. I think this is one

40:12

of those rare circumstances where she really

40:14

does need to testify. What

40:16

do you expect and what do you think

40:19

she needs to do and accomplish in order

40:21

to give herself any chance with these jurors?

40:25

Oh man I you know it's gonna be tough because

40:27

I think the only thing she can do is get

40:29

up there and admit her short comings as a mother.

40:31

We have all the evidence we need that she

40:33

ignored the kids. She could go take care of

40:35

her horses, she could text her lover but she

40:38

couldn't respond to very disturbing text messages from her

40:40

son for hours. So I

40:42

think the only thing she can do is

40:44

say look I'm a bad parent and there

40:46

are innocent kids dead because of that and

40:48

I admit it but it was never my

40:50

intention for anybody to lose their life

40:52

or my son to be in prison for the rest

40:54

of his life. I don't see what else she has

40:56

to work with. Yeah yeah it's a

40:59

really it's gonna really be difficult for her

41:01

and I think a lot of this case

41:03

is gonna come down to how she testifies.

41:06

So much the prosecution has done such a

41:09

good job so far of painting this picture

41:11

of her that I think the only thing

41:13

she can do is try to humanize herself

41:16

to these jurors to be like you're

41:18

right like you said first there has to be

41:20

a huge mea culpa and say

41:22

I'm I'm horrible I've made many mistakes

41:25

but the end result I think has to be

41:29

I tried I cared about my son

41:31

I made mistakes but I loved my

41:33

son I wanted to do the right

41:35

thing I was dealing with a lot

41:37

of difficulties if she can

41:39

at all get some jurors to maybe place

41:42

themselves in her position and say geez I

41:44

don't know what I would do under the

41:46

circumstances. I'm very busy I've got

41:48

a troubled child they've said some crazy things

41:51

to me in the past I'm doing the

41:53

best that I can because you know this

41:55

is a nightmare I think for parents as

41:57

well to imagine their child You

42:00

know not only the people who are imagining

42:03

their child as the victims of this tragedy

42:05

But imagining their child as the person who

42:07

perpetrated this is a complete nightmare as well

42:11

Well, we will continue to keep an eye

42:13

on that case Like we said it may

42:15

be concluding as far as the prosecution's cases

42:17

early as today And so we may be

42:19

into the defense case by the time this

42:21

is released and we may be looking at

42:24

deliberations even that soon But

42:26

in the meantime Gigi, thank you so much

42:28

again for coming on this week. Where can

42:30

people find out more about you? All

42:33

over the place anywhere you've listened to your

42:36

podcast YouTube. I do Have

42:38

a channel there where the the podcast version is

42:40

video with the graphics a little bit more expanded

42:42

social media hit me up Follow along

42:45

we we're fact driven and no

42:47

rumor of speculation We just want to get down

42:49

to the nitty-gritty and be a voice for victims

42:51

and the families and those left to pick up

42:53

the pieces After these these horrible crimes

42:55

happen, so appreciate all you guys Tell

42:58

us the name of your podcast again pretty

43:00

lies and alibis do yourself a

43:03

favor and check it out everybody It's really

43:05

worth listening to I'm your

43:07

host Josh Ritter You can find me on

43:09

Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter esq or

43:11

at Joshua Ritter calm You can

43:14

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43:16

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43:18

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43:20

You'd like us to address tweet

43:22

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43:25

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43:27

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