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1:01

Podcast. A

1:04

word of warning: This podcast explores

1:06

graphic and disturbing stories and include

1:08

some strong language. It therefore may

1:11

not be suitable for our young

1:13

listeners or other folks who may

1:15

find it disturbing. Hello and welcome

1:17

to a special edition of True Crime

1:19

Daily the Podcast I'm Your Host and

1:21

Garcia Today's Cases about a mother search

1:24

for Justice When Cheryl William, son, Mike

1:26

Williams didn't return from an early morning

1:28

duck hunting trip and was presumed dead

1:30

eaten by alligator said the authorities If

1:32

you could not accept it, Mike was

1:35

successful, married with a young child, and

1:37

he was scheduled to go away for

1:39

a romantic weekend with his wife. That

1:41

night, Miss Cheryl wrote letters to the

1:43

Governor, took ads out in the paper,

1:45

held up home. Made posters in

1:48

the street to Tallahassee, took out

1:50

billboards and she did this for

1:52

seventeen years. and on that seventeenth

1:55

year, the Truth. Finally, Came

1:57

out his wife had been

1:59

having. There with his best friend

2:01

and the duck hunting trip was just

2:03

a set up to kill Mike and

2:06

been almost got away with. It the

2:08

wise collected nearly one point five. Million

2:10

Dollars in Insurance Policies written by.

2:13

The. Best Friend and then the Weiss

2:15

and the best friend married but when

2:17

she grew tired of her second husband.

2:19

And try to divorce him. Oh,

2:21

he turned on her and he

2:23

confessed everything to police. This

2:26

is a case that I covered extensively

2:28

for Crimewatch Daily, and it's a case

2:30

that you all are interested. In because

2:32

my report has twenty four

2:34

million views on you tube.

2:37

Our guests today has written a

2:39

book about this case called Evil

2:41

at Lake Seminal Steven Be Epstein

2:44

is an attorney and a true

2:46

crime author of three crime thrillers.

2:48

Steven welcome to the program. It's

2:51

lovely a happy you. Thank.

2:53

You so much on a really appreciate being. I

2:55

want you to know that the reason we invited

2:57

you was at the request. Of likes

3:00

mother Michelle Williams. See.

3:03

Does. Not like much about what

3:05

has been written about her son's

3:07

case but your book. She does

3:10

values and she asked me to

3:12

please bring you on the podcast

3:14

because she wants to supports someone

3:16

who was told her family's tragedy

3:18

in a sensitive a manner and

3:20

that is so. Important to or.

3:23

While. I couldn't be more delighted to have somebody

3:26

like that my corner. Cheryl means a whole lot

3:28

to me and what she's been through. I.

3:30

Couldn't imagine anyone else software for about

3:32

this is a woman that as you

3:35

know. How's. The grip

3:37

and perseverance of a marathon runner

3:39

am literally she was running a

3:41

marathon all those years and she

3:43

byword prosperous one. An

3:46

incredible inspiration. I met

3:48

Cheryl and twenty seventeen.

3:51

When this case was as cold

3:53

as could be and. I fell

3:55

in love with her instantly For civil, she's

3:57

incredibly warm human being and she's also a

4:00

door the she wears her hair in these

4:02

cute little pig says is beautiful white. Hair

4:04

and giant blue eyes. And she's

4:06

just the kind of loving person

4:08

and we have developed a friendship

4:10

over the last seven years, to

4:12

the point that we speak regularly.

4:16

And. The most amazing and touching thing to

4:19

me is especially this last year. She.

4:21

Called me on mother's day she does

4:23

that a lot but when she calls

4:25

me for them like I was supposed

4:27

to call you for success and so

4:30

she says very kind and loving and

4:32

I I learn a lot from the

4:34

people I interview because it teaches me

4:36

about the human spirit. It. Teaches

4:38

me about how one continues

4:40

after a tragedy like this

4:42

album and she such an

4:45

inspiration. To me and I adore her!

4:47

Both would. We both share the

4:49

same views. So this

4:52

is unusual in the sense that

4:54

I've covered this case and I

4:56

also covered the trial and I

4:58

was there during the testimony and

5:00

so I am an arm. Complete

5:02

honesty here. I have not read.

5:04

Your book and. But

5:07

I am curious about how

5:09

one proceeds to write a

5:11

book about something that maybe

5:13

they weren't. Involved with

5:15

and of course that's how most books are

5:17

written. Spoke what was it about this case?

5:19

I mean, obviously. I think it's fascinating taste

5:21

buds. was there's something very. Special about

5:23

this the drew you to this

5:25

case. Probably. The cheryl aspect.

5:28

That would be the number one thing

5:30

in my book of the reviews of

5:32

my book on Amazon. Babbel. One

5:34

thank you for most drawn to is how this

5:36

woman if it weren't for Cheryl. Or

5:38

and her persistence, her perseverance from

5:41

Korea or tenacity. There's. No

5:43

way that anybody would have ever thought

5:45

this was anything more than an accident.

5:47

And she refused to believe that.

5:50

All. Those years M. Made.

5:52

A cast of herself to. Florida.

5:55

Law enforcement to certain way

5:57

her former daughter in law.

6:00

However, a new husband blame Winchester. I'm sure

6:02

we'll talk about that. She was going to

6:04

do whatever it tough to get to the

6:06

truth and then the other aspect of this

6:08

that with you haven't touched on. Yes, Was.

6:11

The horrific loss of her mouth. Just

6:13

her son, but her grandchild. Who.

6:15

Was basically stolen from her because she

6:17

persisted and pursuing an investigation and was

6:19

told that if she continued to do

6:22

that she was gonna lose her granddaughter

6:24

And sure enough. When a granddaughter

6:26

is about five years old, she

6:28

was complete contact with her and

6:30

haven't had any contact with her

6:32

sense. So there's so many aspects

6:34

to this story that or you're

6:36

just make your sorry, go out

6:38

to somebody like Sheriff and admire

6:40

everything that she did to eliminate

6:42

what had actually transpired in December

6:44

of two thousand. It

6:47

is such a tragedy on so

6:49

many levels and See has suffered

6:51

so much and lost so many

6:54

people that Seed loves. And yes,

6:56

you're right, her granddaughter. An

6:58

Sli. See. Has not

7:00

had a relationship with because. My.

7:03

Wife Denise. Was. Furious.

7:07

At. Cheryl for insisting that law

7:09

enforcement not give up. Now.

7:12

If I were a grieving. Widow which

7:14

I. Denise never

7:17

really was. I

7:19

would not stop until my child's

7:22

father was found. So. That

7:24

in itself was suspicious from the vex.

7:26

Everything about this case is suspicious and

7:28

I do believe that. There was a

7:31

huge miscarriage miscarriage of justice here in the

7:33

very beginning. Because to simply accept

7:35

that he had disappeared. When

7:38

shortly after mice didn't come back

7:40

from the trips, there were things

7:42

that were investigated like by the

7:44

floor Department of Insurance and other

7:47

things things that were red flags.

7:49

Like less than a month before

7:51

the man. The. Username declared dead is

7:53

has been missing for something like nineteen days.

7:56

Nine days, you got it. Ninety

7:58

days. The application for. Aura the

8:00

insurance proceeds on to life insurance policies

8:02

with Kansas City Lights with the Nice

8:05

A signature and Brian Signature. Because Brian

8:07

was the writing agent on those two

8:09

policies and I'll correct is slightly. there

8:11

were three policies that pay out over

8:13

one point eight million dollars. There was

8:16

also this five hundred thousand dollar Cotton

8:18

States Policies. That. Was going to

8:20

lapse by Brian tapped ensuring that the

8:22

Premier repaid There was even a premium

8:24

sec that was paid after Mike went

8:27

missing. right? So there

8:29

was all kinds of stuff by the bureau.

8:31

It's tragic to think. That. They didn't

8:33

pick up on anything because Brian's vehicle, which

8:35

he washed out with a power washer, had

8:38

blood all over it. And the

8:40

of they had gotten that vehicle within

8:42

the first few months. After.

8:44

This didn't happen in December. Two thousand the jig

8:46

would have been up in in two thousand and

8:48

one. Either a woman

8:51

made up and. And and then the two of them.

8:53

The Weiss the Widow right. The.

8:55

Wise. And. The and see

8:58

files early to have her husband

9:00

declared dead slick. Why do you

9:02

need to do that? Why

9:05

amount that was only

9:07

after mysteriously. A pair

9:09

of waiters showed up in the exact

9:11

location where my went missing. And

9:14

then a couple of days later, his

9:16

hunting jacket is found at the bottom

9:18

of the late. along with

9:20

his something license and a false

9:23

love. How. Did that happen? And it

9:25

was just a few days after that? That.

9:27

A swarm petition was filed to

9:29

have might declared dead. How

9:31

much of a red flag is that? And the

9:33

hearing occurred. Even before Cheryl

9:36

and Net my brother learned

9:38

anything about this effort, have

9:40

might declared dead. Incense

9:42

and that this license. When you look at

9:44

it it was pristine. It was in perfect

9:46

condition, not as if it had been at

9:49

the bottom of the late or a swamp

9:51

for six months. He didn't look like that

9:53

at all. It was all very clean which

9:55

with made it so suspicious. but it gave

9:57

her enough to go before a judge. And

10:00

say, well, obviously he's dead, Let's

10:02

declare him dead And then she

10:04

proceeds to have an open relationship

10:07

with. With. right?

10:09

Her husband's best friend and then she

10:11

ends up marrying him Like how do

10:14

you live in a small town. Like

10:16

this. And you marry your

10:18

husband's best friend who wrote the insurance

10:20

policies which you have benefited from. And

10:24

yet, no, I mean. Are they

10:26

didn't? Even what is even worse than that? Because

10:28

we're Brian. Moved. Him to

10:30

brought the house that might for

10:32

this hard work as employees are.

10:35

I was able to purchase. Right

10:37

after their daughter was born with

10:39

purchase this beautiful home I've been

10:41

new funding of in there to

10:44

yeah that they purchase this beautiful

10:46

home and my dad and before

10:48

long does Who's sleeping next to

10:50

deniers. In. Months bed. And by

10:52

the way, there were. Such. Was all

10:54

over the walls of their wedding day. Of

10:56

my into niece's wedding day. And

10:58

we know they were having

11:00

an affair sometimes trusting him

11:03

that bedroom. Prior.

11:05

To my to death with those photographs

11:07

from the wedding. A whole over the

11:09

law. As. Is pretty sick

11:11

stuff. It is really a disgrace.

11:14

It is a disgrace and it was

11:16

so blatant and in your face. And

11:18

the sucking part of all of this

11:20

is this: This went on for seventeen

11:23

years. For seventeen years and. I.

11:25

Do believe it was a disservice

11:27

to Miss Cheryl and her whole

11:30

family that the authorities did not

11:32

look at these obvious red flags

11:34

and investigate. Further, Why

11:36

we were it. If you get said see

11:38

your point about them getting married it is

11:40

clear in retrospect. The. Reason they got

11:43

married was to create their own

11:45

insurance policy. Because. Of the

11:47

spousal privilege and I know a little

11:49

bit about that. Being a lawyer, they

11:51

couldn't ever testify against the other. Because

11:54

of the spousal privilege right south. as

11:56

long as they were married to one

11:58

another, they have pretty good insurance policy

12:00

that neither was wheel and nobody else

12:02

knew the truth about what happens. So

12:04

they were in good shape up until

12:06

the point in time. Denise finally

12:08

kicked Brian out, said I can't do this

12:10

anymore. Now. The day that

12:12

this started to unravel. Amazing.

12:14

He was a scorned lover and he

12:17

was gonna hit back and he hit

12:19

back. Hardy's like I'll tell you ask

12:21

thanks, I'll tell you the whole schemes,

12:23

I'll tell you everything, all even tell

12:25

you aware next by as well. Let's

12:28

let's get back to that day and

12:30

the hunting trip and let's start breaking

12:32

this case down for every one because

12:34

again, the flags were enormous. Like they

12:37

were waving so hard and so fast.

12:39

It's a miracle they didn't slap everyone

12:41

in the face that was investigating this

12:43

case. Beget. But yet, They. Were

12:45

allowed to carry on. That is

12:48

a miscarriage of justice. Okay, so

12:50

Mike Williams. Very. Successful! Thirty one

12:52

year old and he was. Married

12:54

to his high school sweetheart. they

12:56

had a little girl. Everything was

12:59

great. He worked in these real

13:01

state appraisal business. He was loved

13:03

by everyone. I mean such a

13:05

good the such a good guy.

13:07

That the night before he disappeared he was out

13:09

there with the Salvation Army ringing a bell and

13:11

a kettle. To raise money okay

13:14

and from Walmart which will figure

13:16

prominently when we continue the story.

13:18

Burglar. That. Is a good man

13:20

is what I'm saying to you, right? That's

13:22

when I'm telling you this is a good

13:25

man and his life was taken. By

13:27

people who, ah goodness well, they're

13:29

both behind bars right now. Let's

13:31

hope. That they stay there for

13:33

a long time. So here's here's

13:35

the story is it originally played

13:37

was that on the morning of

13:39

December sixteenth of two thousand that

13:41

he was gonna go duck hunting

13:43

in the morning. that's what is

13:45

why said and after duck hunting

13:47

they were supposed to go away

13:49

for a romantic weekend because it

13:51

was their anniversary but might never

13:53

came back from his duck hunting

13:55

trip. Unlike seminal was very cold.

13:57

it was as nasty cold where

14:00

they're in in Tallahassee was very

14:02

very cold and so a search

14:04

begins because they think that they

14:06

have. A duck hunter.

14:08

Who's gone missing? Perhaps has fallen into the

14:10

water? He's never found. There's

14:12

a massive massive search for a few days

14:14

and then finally it's called off. He's

14:17

never found. and as you said, six months.

14:19

Later, but he's. Waiters

14:22

and the flashlight. and

14:24

then his fishing license.

14:26

Hunting license is spend.

14:30

The truth is. Less is

14:32

tell the truth there. Okay,

14:36

The. Truth is. This

14:39

whole fishing trip was a setup and

14:42

this is all based on the testimony

14:44

of the best friend. Glover

14:46

turned husband's in this case

14:48

for a winchester. Denise told

14:51

authorities he went by himself.

14:54

But the truth was and no one

14:56

knew this was that Mike. With

14:58

meeting his best friend Brian. To

15:01

go ducks running that morning. And

15:03

the whole plan was because this

15:05

was the testimony of Brine Winchester

15:07

on. The stand was. The

15:10

whole goal was that Mike had

15:12

a where his waiters right. And

15:15

the goal was to push him in the water

15:18

and for him to drown. And

15:20

they had actually tried to do with

15:22

the week before. but Denise chickened out

15:24

and told Mike not to go to

15:26

upcoming. So finally this is the next

15:28

the next weekend that they tremendous. but

15:30

it didn't work. Because.

15:33

When he pushed Mike into the water

15:35

in the boat. He.

15:38

Managed to hold on to something

15:40

like what patricia a tree stump.

15:42

And so Brian panics. And

15:45

has to do something cause now his plans not

15:47

working so he shoots like. I

15:49

want to play from. The Court testimony. I

15:51

want you to hear this in your

15:54

I want you to hear this is

15:56

Brine Winchester. His own words describing what

15:58

I just told you was the original

16:00

plans and then coward all played out.

16:03

Here's the testimony: I.

16:05

Bobby finger. And I'm on the Weber. You ever

16:07

see a new face or name on your news feeds and say

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Odyssey up and wherever you get your

17:05

partner. As

17:07

he was paid didn't and

17:09

I was panicking. And

17:12

none of this was like going well. I thought

17:14

it was gonna go. And

17:20

how didn't I didn't know what to do? But

17:25

on. He

17:29

was He started to yell. And

17:37

I didn't I didn't know it. Out

17:40

of that situation. And

17:48

so I had my going into

17:50

both. The

17:56

head off. Silos.

17:59

My God. And

18:01

others. I made.

18:05

One or two circles around. And

18:11

I ended up. Circling.

18:15

Closer tourism. Is

18:19

he was in the water. Has

18:23

a pass bys. I

18:25

shot him. So.

18:28

Of brine Winchester just testified

18:30

to. Is. What happened in real

18:33

time that a stupid planned an Orc and

18:35

and he resorted to violence Which I have

18:37

to ask you this: Do you believe Stephen

18:39

that that was really the plant or she

18:41

was going to shoot him Anyway, It's

18:44

hard to know, but. Judging.

18:47

By Brian's testimony that you just

18:49

played. You can see

18:51

how he was in the moment of

18:53

that situation, about how he was panicking

18:55

and back he said mike was panicked

18:57

and I was panicking. And it, after

19:00

all, This. Was a plan

19:02

between he and a nice because

19:04

remember these are two people who

19:06

profess to being to bow league

19:08

baseball and Christian. And they

19:10

believed they were gonna put this whole

19:12

thing in God's hands, right? So

19:14

the plan was a possum overboard and

19:17

he would drown as waiters. but there

19:19

be some chance that What Mike would

19:21

live right. And if you live with

19:23

him, that was God's plan. Of.

19:25

Course wouldn't Neither of them their

19:27

well educated people. I graduated

19:29

from Florida State. The nice in as

19:31

an accountant brands into a wealth management

19:34

and insurance. These are smart people. What?

19:36

They never apparently thought about was. Of

19:39

it's God's plan for my to live.

19:42

You've. Just tried to kill him and he

19:44

has the witness to you just trying to

19:46

kill him. You're just gonna say oh okay,

19:48

Go reported to authorities. I was

19:50

in that moment that I think brian realize that

19:52

that really wasn't an option. God's plan or

19:54

not, my cat ago. So

19:57

the reason they never found a body like

19:59

seminal. So I'm going to go back and

20:01

forth between real time and what really happens

20:03

like what was said and what really happened.

20:05

And so the reason they never found a

20:07

body is because Brian ends up polling. Pulling

20:11

my spotty out. This is

20:13

the most incredible part. Puts them in the back of

20:15

his vehicle. Now. He's been

20:17

shot. And. He's bleeding

20:19

and he's he's dead. He's passed. He

20:22

drives his vehicle. His alibi. O'brien's alibi

20:24

was that he was going to be

20:26

duck hunting with his father in law,

20:28

but obviously because things didn't go the

20:30

way it planned, you'd miss the timing.

20:32

He didn't one uses phone because he

20:34

knew he could be tracked and so

20:37

he drives home. With.

20:39

Mike. Williams. in the back of his.

20:42

In the all three and a dog for it. As

20:45

he out train dogs and your bets

20:47

large dog have. Club. Or mugs

20:49

bodies into a dog crate and the

20:51

back of his suburban. Of and

20:54

he's bleeding all over the back of

20:56

his suburban and worse fill out the

20:58

home He and coffee is why you

21:00

share. His on a hill

21:02

or seen it and so when he parks.

21:05

It's on an incline and Mike's blog

21:07

is literally driven out of the back

21:09

of the onto the driveway while Brian

21:11

goes into the house to prime wait

21:13

up beside his wife said she thinks

21:16

he's been there all that. So

21:18

his plan was to take his wife out

21:21

the night before, get her as drunk as

21:23

possible so she would sleep in and the

21:25

alibi so that he would have to alibis.

21:27

one he was in bed with Kathy, his

21:30

wife and two he was gonna go duck

21:32

hunting with his father in law so he

21:34

calls from his residence halls his father in

21:36

law lives message or whatever and says hey

21:38

sorry I overslept sars cause he knows he's

21:41

been in bed So and there would be

21:43

no reason there would be no reason for

21:45

any one for the police Talk to Brian

21:47

other than. As best friend and sites for

21:50

something going on to the deserts. Great so

21:52

as far as the public knows. My.

21:54

Spot is not sound. The

21:57

it's stormy night so it's hard

21:59

for investigators. Search Cruise right? But.

22:02

Meanwhile. You. Have what I

22:04

call a moving crime scene. Saw.

22:06

That you take it from there. About how things things

22:09

up. Okay so brian them

22:11

realize as you gotta do something with

22:13

the body right? So he wasn't prepared.

22:15

I think again I think Ryan is

22:17

tell the truth because he wasn't prepared

22:19

for what to do at this point.

22:22

so when he the first thing how to do was

22:24

figure out where. He's. Going to dispose of

22:27

the body and how he's going to dispose of the

22:29

money. So. Getting back to

22:31

the Walmart. He drives to the

22:33

very Walmart were Mike. Was. Winning

22:35

the Salvation Army Bell just

22:38

hours earlier the night before.

22:40

Drive. Back to that Walmart this

22:42

time with might as a corpse

22:44

bleeding out. He and his

22:46

Chevy Suburban. And he goes

22:49

in and he's gotta go to a shovel.

22:51

But. Heart. Some. Weights so

22:53

that he can bury might below what

22:55

he's hoping is going to be the

22:58

water in the way car. Which

23:00

is it? Another way, Much closer

23:02

Tallahassee, Found. That he actually

23:04

runs into guy named Mike Phillips who's.

23:07

With. The Florida Department of A Lot for smith

23:09

hour and a half the carry on a conversation

23:11

as if everything's normal. Gets. Through that.

23:14

Then is checking out with the

23:16

tower and awaits amazon will like

23:18

that's not suspicious road. Goes

23:21

back out of the vehicle Darius to

23:23

correlate. And. He

23:26

doesn't have the strength anymore did he was going?

23:28

Things might all the way up to the middle

23:30

of a like and draw from their be like

23:32

seat of have the strength anymore. At this point

23:35

he had a hoist Mike's hundred and eighty com

23:37

body after doing all the stuff that like several

23:39

into the back of the suburban a good for

23:41

all the shenanigans to set up his album. He.

23:44

Finally said screw it. I'm just gonna dig

23:46

a hole and bury him and eventually the

23:48

water he thinks will get high enough that

23:50

makes money will be under. The

23:52

weight. While. While he's doing that,

23:55

There. Isn't as a vehicle? He's down below

23:57

their the hill and another vehicle comes up

23:59

and. Guy is going hunting and

24:01

is like okay I can't be seem

24:03

burying a body so he runs out

24:06

tries to divert this guy runs back

24:08

down. Digs: The whole further. Back.

24:10

He gets into up some a fire

24:13

ant nest. Fire ants are crawling all

24:15

over his legs and he's digging this

24:17

whole to but the tarp. Out

24:19

that wraps Mike's body like a burrito

24:22

in. Cover it up. And. Then

24:24

he gets the heck out of there and.

24:27

On his way back he stops at

24:29

a carwash to spray that the blood

24:31

out of his out of his Chevy

24:34

suburban. And many men it's

24:36

even worse because he was supposed to be

24:38

at a family celebrations in say, Road Georgia

24:40

just across the Georgia line and he has

24:42

to get cleaned up. Showered is for his

24:44

wife has already gone, they were supposed to

24:46

go to gather his son was there and

24:49

his wife and his son have already left

24:51

without him and he joins them there and

24:53

pretend like everything's been fine. He just got

24:55

detained while he was some. And.

24:57

That's what happened. And my

25:00

about Camera Georgia has going to become

25:02

very significance in the investigation as it

25:04

starts developing over the next few years.

25:07

The. Amazing thing is. That. He

25:09

actually does away with it. That.

25:12

The. Diversion This plan.

25:15

All. Resources were focused. On.

25:18

Lake Seminal were might.

25:20

Indeed, what has been

25:22

deafening. So it's amazing

25:25

that. Even. Though

25:27

he bundles most of this, he still gets

25:29

away with it. It's. Since.

25:32

Been it's systems and

25:34

so. Then. We

25:36

get to like the six months or were

25:39

now the waiters so often the and the

25:41

hunting license so what do with Ortiz to

25:43

go. To Brian winchester Mike's best

25:45

friends to validate that these are

25:48

his items. Desk. While. It's

25:50

it's It's even worse than that because while

25:52

the the hunt was going on like seminal

25:54

bryant, Brian was there every day. And.

25:56

The waiters and the jacket and the license were

25:58

in the first things that worth. That represented

26:00

might it was a camouflage

26:02

that. That. Was found in the

26:05

first couple of weeks of the surface, or

26:07

twenty for forty four days. Brian was there

26:09

for most of those days and a backup.

26:12

That. The the Tempest out was actually the second

26:14

thing was found. The first thing that was found

26:16

was might boat. And whoever went

26:18

to find it at about two

26:20

o'clock in the morning after Mike

26:22

went missing. it was Brian in

26:24

his dad on their own boat

26:26

and they found and found with

26:28

air quotes Mike's boat that Brian

26:30

had staged. On. The shoreline with

26:32

the motor on. The mistake he made their

26:35

was it was a full tank of gas.

26:37

And the motor was on the on

26:39

position when it was found which makes

26:42

no sense and Mike's shot gun was

26:44

found. the zipped up and it's taste

26:46

and it's not even the right shotgun

26:48

for a.com interest. So yep all these

26:50

signs that were missed in the early

26:52

going. By Brian was

26:54

the one who staged all of these things and

26:56

in my view stage what happened in June of

26:59

two thousand and one with the waiters, the jacket

27:01

and the hunting license and the flashlights Be as

27:03

you said, they were all found in pristine condition.

27:05

There's no way they were like for six months,

27:08

but that was after they had gone to see

27:10

a lawyer about how to get a presumptive death

27:12

certificates and a lawyer said we don't have enough.

27:15

I'm Brian. Made sure there was

27:17

enough by stating that as well.

27:19

Just unbelievable for how long they

27:22

got away. Blatant.

27:24

And get with so many

27:26

mistakes. So in this time

27:28

period. Several things are going

27:31

on so Miss Cheryl does not want

27:33

to give up. See is not believing

27:35

this whole thing. Sees told that. The

27:38

reason they haven't sound like someone is

27:40

because he was probably eaten by alligators.

27:42

And you know she does research on

27:44

this and she says well it was.

27:46

As I said, it was very cool

27:48

that day. And. Apparently.

27:51

Alligators to not feed. When.

27:53

It is that. Cold. They. Going to

27:56

have a hybrid not up like a state

27:58

of hibernation. Because. When.

28:00

They're called they. They don't move, they just

28:02

stay where they are and wait for to

28:04

warm up enough so that they go gather

28:06

fit. And they never

28:09

found even parts of Mikes. So all

28:11

of this was very. It. Is

28:13

just unusual. It just didn't

28:15

make any sense. And when

28:18

ah, I met Miss Cheryl.

28:20

You. Know for seventeen years it's own it's She

28:23

had not run at a gas by any

28:25

means but at this point every once heard.

28:27

Her complaints rights. It

28:30

spins years and. See.

28:32

Never Stop See wrote those letters to

28:34

the Governor. She put up the billboards.

28:37

you know their see as with their

28:39

little pigtail standing out there with these

28:41

little posters just in the street trying

28:43

to get attention, calling reporters, calling the

28:45

police, Me: Know the billboards and all

28:48

that. The ads, the billboards, Everything she

28:50

paid for with her baby sitting money.

28:52

She raised a lot of the wonderful

28:54

people who are in Tallahassee right now.

28:57

She's raised to spout everybody's child

28:59

in that town. And not

29:01

have a double wide trailer

29:03

that was both her and

29:05

her workplace. Absolutely. so. I

29:07

met Miss Cheryl in the

29:09

summer of twenty sixteen. We

29:11

were. Investigating. This

29:14

as a cold case for

29:16

crime watch daily at the

29:18

time. So this is sixteen

29:20

years in two nights. disappearance.

29:23

And. A When I first. Met.

29:26

Miss Cheryl. In Tallahassee

29:28

that summer was July.

29:31

The first thing she says. Me was. Everybody.

29:34

Thinks I'm crazy. And. I said

29:36

to her owner. You. Are

29:39

Not crazy. Success! There is

29:41

nothing crazy about. This

29:43

woman and. She

29:45

starts telling me about the whole likes you

29:47

know they said my son was eaten by

29:49

an alligator. anatomy. sounded like. Preposterous.

29:52

The Psych: this is ridiculous arms she

29:54

said no, but that was the you

29:56

know official ruling for a while and

29:58

she had all the doc. Inflation and

30:00

I. I was just stunned because

30:02

all of this sounded insane, like

30:05

all of it sounded insane and

30:07

that there were two people who

30:09

really might have the keys to

30:11

figuring out what would have happened

30:13

here. A very suspicious So I

30:15

sat down for this interview with

30:17

Michelle and then she shares with

30:20

me that the retribution for her.

30:23

Asking and pursuing for pursuing

30:25

a criminal investigation, she she

30:27

paid the second ultimate price.

30:30

She lost her granddaughter because.

30:33

Her. Daughter Law told her you continue. You will

30:35

never see your grand over again. So.

30:38

This is a clip from the

30:40

interview after my disappeared she threatened

30:42

me. She said if you do

30:44

anything to get and criminal investigation

30:46

you're going to lose access to.

30:49

And Sly Slide granddaughter

30:51

had. Already lost my husband, I

30:53

lost my cool and now she's

30:55

telling me I'm gonna lose and

30:57

sorry I said. What is that?

30:59

Were an slice missing? Would you

31:01

not look for her? She.

31:04

Said that's different off the

31:06

go on with Lol Lol

31:08

I don't ever wanna hear

31:10

Mike's name adult ever wanna

31:13

see much says that sounds

31:15

so cruel. To me. So.

31:18

Cruel now that we know

31:20

her. denise his involvement in

31:22

the murder of Mike Williams

31:24

her husband. To.

31:26

Then, so you've taken this

31:28

woman. Some you've taken his

31:30

life. And now

31:33

you are taking her grandchild.

31:35

That is diabolical. Yeah.

31:38

And actually it was. We were

31:41

two separate occasions where dummies may

31:43

bad for. The. First occasion

31:45

was the first time

31:47

that. Cheryl. Had

31:50

put Mike's news Mike's photograph in

31:52

the newspaper about in Tallahassee Democrat.

31:54

that wasn't August of two thousand

31:56

and one T months after he

31:58

went missing, he was part of

32:00

a missile or his stories and

32:02

Denise summoned Cheryl to call him

32:04

Mike's homes and emulex and said

32:06

I don't ever want to see

32:08

might picture in the newspaper again

32:10

I don't want to hear anything

32:12

more about this. If you persist

32:14

in trying to get more attention about the

32:17

story wasn't even about one fourth. And that

32:19

points, if you persist in trying to get

32:21

more attention about this story. You're

32:23

going to lose. Ancillary that was

32:25

August two thousand and one, and

32:27

notably, she didn't pull an Sli

32:29

way from her. Them. At. That

32:32

point, Bryant and Denise. We're not a

32:34

public, awful. It. Was only in

32:36

January of two thousand and five. And

32:38

about the time of Charles birthday.

32:41

When Denise and Brian were

32:43

already a public couple that

32:45

the second fret occurred and

32:47

that occurred at at Cheryl

32:49

trailer in her kitchen where

32:51

they both were, they're making

32:53

this threat to her. And.

32:55

They eventually stormed out of there when

32:57

Cheryl said, I will Not stop I

33:00

will not stop until I find out

33:02

what happens and both of you know

33:04

what happened. That was

33:06

the point. January two thousand and

33:08

five. That. They made good on

33:10

the threat but she and brian that

33:13

she would never see her granddaughter and

33:15

we against and she never house and

33:17

c sar court room or gets about

33:19

at her and saying but she's never

33:21

voluntarily been together with his way out

33:23

for them because done he sought to

33:25

it that she never would be. And.

33:28

You know? here's the sad part because

33:30

Cheryl and I have talked a Lot

33:32

about this estrangement. a. And

33:35

it's very, very painful for her. Kills Her.

33:38

And. You know, the

33:40

only thing I add to this

33:42

and I'm not in any way

33:45

to sending. An Sli hear?

33:48

That from a child's perspective,

33:50

your father. Disappears.

33:52

Presumed dead. So. Very

33:54

scary thing for child. This.

33:56

Young this girl and now this young woman

33:59

is lost. Her. Other in a

34:01

horrific, tragic way. Then this

34:03

man moves into the home.

34:06

You know he's now your step. And

34:09

then you're a young. I think

34:11

she would have been in college

34:13

right? I think. was seen college

34:15

or in high school when her

34:18

mother was arrested. Or mother

34:20

was arrested. Oh. Yeah

34:22

may have two thousand

34:24

eight team. And

34:27

it was pulling Nine literally on

34:29

her. nineteenth. Birthday. It

34:32

was ends with my eighteenth birthday day

34:34

that Nice was arrested for the murder

34:36

of employees father. But. Getting to

34:38

your point. She. Was raised

34:41

by her father's. Killers.

34:43

Both of them, she was

34:45

brainwashed into believing that everything

34:47

was being said about them.

34:50

Somehow being involved were vicious

34:52

lies and that the worst

34:54

perpetrator of the vicious lies

34:57

was her crazy crazy grandmother,

34:59

Miss Cheryl. She's. Been told

35:01

him she was nineteen months old the that

35:03

her dad was killed. That. Her

35:05

grandmother was crazy. And. After

35:08

all these years, she believes it.

35:11

It's just so sad. It's just so sad.

35:13

And I keep hoping that a C. It's

35:16

shores, you know, And.

35:19

Just. Grows up and tries to. This

35:21

is a lot for a young person

35:23

to process. mean see as a victim.

35:25

Here it is so much for this

35:27

young woman to process. I just I

35:29

hope that she can find it in

35:31

our hearts. You know, to find her

35:34

way back to her grandmother. But I

35:36

think. Based. On little you

35:38

can read into her court appearances. A

35:40

think. She. Clearly.

35:43

Loves her remaining parent.

35:45

her mother. And.

35:48

Believes in our mother, A

35:50

Cushy certainly stood by Or and court. It's

35:52

just oh my god, it's. Such

35:54

city. And. Then there's

35:57

three else, right? Denise has three sisters

35:59

Deborah, Darla, Indiana, the and as the

36:01

oldest, Denise was the second oldest. I

36:04

may have stood by dummies all of

36:06

this time as well, and they've

36:08

all been supportive of they planned a.

36:11

Party. For her. The day

36:13

of the verdict in the trial thinking that she

36:15

was going to be acquitted. They.

36:17

Were all ready to go to have. Some.

36:20

Some other city and celebrate with her after

36:22

she was acquitted of this crime. I

36:25

know is already has. Deanna was one of

36:27

the first people to suspect her own sister

36:29

in the snow. And. Cold

36:32

law enforcement That things didn't add up.

36:34

And somehow over all these years, she's cover that

36:36

up in our own brain and now believes that

36:38

he had nothing to do with it. Or at least

36:40

that's what she says. And to these claims

36:42

to this day that she had nothing to

36:45

do with it. And it is Brian who

36:47

says that she's. She's. The one

36:49

who killed night. And

36:51

so. One.

36:54

Could. Question. How much

36:57

her involvement was. But frankly, the fact

36:59

that sees filing for insurance policies and

37:01

all this other stuff it's just there's

37:04

there is no plausible deniability. Here Okay

37:06

Anna can I guess of the most glaring

37:08

fire that like shallow in my research? Okay

37:10

it's. Thursday. Night. Him.

37:13

The Centennial lives home was friends

37:15

might okay. This is while Mike

37:17

was still alive, walking in the

37:19

knees, were still living under the

37:21

same roof with their daughter Hemsley.

37:24

They had met Mike's brother and

37:26

Cheryl Max mother over every Thursday

37:28

night because it was friends night

37:30

and B C friends on television.

37:32

They watched it religiously and they

37:34

did. On December fourteen two

37:37

days before the duck hunting trip

37:39

at like seminal. And some

37:41

important stuff happen that was glossed over

37:43

in the investigation and the trial. but

37:46

Cheryl will scream as from the rooftops

37:48

if anybody will listen. That was

37:50

the night that Denise looked at her and

37:52

said. Mike. And I

37:54

are trying to have another baby.

37:57

Answer. Or obviously remembers that because

37:59

now. A surprise to her

38:01

and it was great. New stars that she

38:03

was gonna have another grandchild. But. That's

38:05

not all that was said That night

38:08

they talked about their plans for their

38:10

anniversary trip. We haven't talked about this,

38:12

yes, but they got married on December

38:15

seventeen. Okay, December seventeen, Ninety Ninety Four.

38:17

So December seventeen two thousand was gonna

38:19

be there sex wedding anniversary and they

38:22

were talking bad night on the fourteenth

38:24

friends night about their plans to go

38:26

to the gifts and him. In.

38:29

Apalachicola Bay down at the

38:31

Gulf Coast for their special

38:33

romantic getaway. They. Were talking

38:35

about that Thursday and they also

38:38

most importantly talked about that their

38:40

schedule that day. That. Might

38:42

was going to go duck

38:44

hunting earlier that morning at

38:46

Lake Seminal. Not alone. But.

38:48

With his best friend Brian A that

38:51

was discussed openly that night that the

38:53

two of them were going together like

38:55

seminal and and Mike was going to

38:57

leave early enough to come home. Shower,

39:00

Change his clothes miss and down

39:02

to the romantic getaway to Apalachicola

39:04

that. Okay, So.

39:06

That's before. We. Know

39:08

what? Have enormous sixteen and we

39:11

know might was with Brian right?

39:13

So. What we learned is that

39:15

Cheryl asked a nice. On.

39:18

That Sunday when she saw the nice

39:20

That Sunday. Wasn't. Might going

39:22

with brian. And. A nice

39:25

tells him. Know. Brian

39:27

actually called at about three o'clock in the

39:29

morning said he wasn't going to be able

39:31

to go because he was going to to

39:33

erode. You are just with happy for this

39:35

family get together and might told her that

39:37

he was gonna have to go. Oh wow.

39:40

Okay, And. So in the

39:42

affidavit that she filed for the

39:45

presumptive death certificates she talks about

39:47

one not even learning about the

39:49

trip apalachicola Bay that the nice

39:51

that learn about that until the

39:54

day before. That. Denise didn't know

39:56

until the day before that Mike and

39:58

plants this trip. Alfredo it

40:00

and correct is cheryl nose and Mit

40:03

knows know you told us about it.

40:05

Today's be worth more than that. The.

40:07

Nice says Mike was going to

40:09

make seminal by himself that this

40:11

was a trips that he was

40:14

going on by himself to like

40:16

seminal before He went on our

40:18

special trip which was also a

40:20

clear of lie because we know

40:22

that he went with Brian and

40:24

there is nothing at all about.

40:27

Getting out woken up at early in the

40:29

morning by Brian calling saying he couldn't go.

40:31

In fact when did he spoke to investigators

40:33

are the first time she was ask questions

40:35

which was in two thousand and four. She

40:38

says nothing about being awaken in the middle

40:40

of night and might who was telling her

40:42

that he was going to go alone because

40:44

Brian can go. She told investigators that have

40:47

always makes intention to go to let alone

40:49

which makes no sense because Might never hunted

40:51

alone at like somehow he always had a

40:53

friend with them. So there are so many

40:55

things that smells. And very clear allies

40:58

him as affidavit that nobody picked up on

41:00

in fact it wasn't even used against or

41:02

a trap. Know. It's it's

41:04

it's against the just went on

41:06

in such a blatant manner. And

41:10

no repercussions for any of these

41:12

actions. And any of these lies

41:14

so not only no repercussions, one point

41:16

eight million dollars in the bank about

41:18

help them with a remarkably good life

41:20

for the next seventeen years. Oh absolutely.

41:22

and properties all over the place, including

41:25

this fabulous like from home that with

41:27

that became Brian's undoing after Denise kicked

41:29

him out at Lake Mcbride which is

41:31

near where his father lived in where

41:33

he grew up. And they they were

41:36

rich beyond their wildest imagination, all because.

41:38

They. Conspired to kill might.

41:41

Denise. Has has been Brian's best friend.

41:45

It again I It's just hard to

41:47

believe that all of this has been

41:49

to test and yet it did and

41:51

went. On. And on some would never

41:53

have come to light at Brian not

41:55

kidnap Denise. never ever ever would have.

41:58

That's my favorite part here. So. Let

42:00

me get to this part. So

42:03

as I said I was with Miss

42:06

Cheryl. I metre in July. At.

42:08

The end of July of Twenty Sixteen.

42:11

So after I do my interview I

42:13

head out to do what I always

42:16

do not on doors and try to

42:18

hear from other people. So. I

42:20

first go to Denise his house and

42:22

she lives. You know which is the

42:24

house she and I'm. My fought and

42:26

it's in a beautiful gated community, a

42:29

very nice house and I'm waiting for

42:31

Denise. No sign of Denise knocking on

42:33

the door. Still think it's nice. We

42:36

later sent ah a producer and another

42:38

team after I left because I had

42:40

a go on to another assignments and

42:43

they did catch Denise. Which y'all'

42:45

we'll see in the report that on

42:47

you tube. And Denise

42:49

is driving out of her

42:51

or driveway. And pulling out

42:54

and ignoring. Everyone.

42:56

Okay, while I am still in Tallahassee

42:58

after a good as nice as house

43:00

I go to Brine Winchester as a

43:02

family business. And. I go looking

43:05

for him. knocking on doors only my business

43:07

card. And brought comes

43:09

from early prominent family, well known

43:11

family in Tallahassee. It's a wealthy

43:14

family. Very prominent. So.

43:17

What? I didn't know at the time.

43:20

Was. What was going on underneath the surface

43:22

of everything? And I've I. Can tell you

43:24

how many times I think of this once

43:26

Lapd officer who. Once.me out of a very bad

43:28

situation when I knocked on a door. and it

43:30

when. It went south real fast. Me

43:33

said to me for what exactly do you

43:35

think is gonna happen when you knock on

43:37

someone's door for no idea what's going on

43:39

in there You have no idea. You know

43:41

he like reading me the riot act like

43:43

you. Are a crazy woman? So.

43:47

Apparently. All. Of

43:49

this tension and spotlight. because all of

43:52

sudden we're back. We're back with cameras

43:54

and we have a focus again spacing.

43:56

They're. Done with Miss Cheryl? But

43:58

know. We're back in town. West. The questions.

44:00

Cameras everywhere and they're feeling the

44:02

pressure at home at work. everywhere.

44:05

Okay, What I didn't

44:07

know was. What? Is

44:09

it the next month? August? Dust?

44:11

Yeah. Our government also within right

44:13

August Fifth. And Kay

44:15

said. Denise.

44:18

Is. Done with Brian Sea sick of Brian

44:20

says been married Brian sea sick of

44:22

him now and she wants a divorce.

44:24

This to me is the most amazing.

44:26

Part of this variety she won't talk to

44:28

Brian he testified for it is a four

44:31

years of this point. Is

44:33

that crazy? Separated.

44:35

Okay with my you have been forced. Known

44:38

as the Marital for with still exists

44:40

even bother separated because legally they're still

44:42

married. And

44:44

he's mad because she will call. Him back,

44:46

she won't meet him, He's like

44:48

losing it. And he when he

44:50

testifies to this honestly, it's riveting

44:52

to listen to. Really, to listen

44:55

to this groveling, sniffling, a man

44:57

you know going on about how

44:59

upset he is he. He actually

45:01

testified this to me as like,

45:03

what is this, what is wrong.

45:05

With this man when it's even

45:08

worse, Or

45:10

this point he of last as soon. As.

45:14

He testifies. Then he's

45:16

asked, why did you kidnap? He

45:18

kidnaps Denise Lights Why did you

45:21

kidnapped a nice and the man

45:23

sits there. Sister. In a courtroom

45:25

he says. We'll. See, when? Listen to me. I need

45:27

her to listen me. Wrong

45:30

with you. But of

45:32

course we know this man. is that

45:34

balance. Okay, so he kidnaps Denise in

45:37

order to convince her to not. Divorce

45:40

him and and I'll let you

45:42

take. It from there. Are

45:44

so from budget Moving forward Arms what

45:47

happens is keep you have been out

45:49

drinking the night before he had left

45:51

and the suicide notes m including wanted

45:54

a nice including one employed including one

45:56

to his ex wife Taffy and on

45:58

and on our team I believe Candid

46:01

commit suicide. I truly do. On,

46:03

but he was going to satan

46:05

One final shot with Denise. And.

46:08

So he at wound up breaking

46:10

into her vehicle. Which was

46:12

in the in the driveway it wasn't part

46:14

in the garage and at about two o'clock

46:16

in the morning he fell asleep in the

46:19

cargo area as she also had one of

46:21

the larger as you these and she started

46:23

driving the next morning and he pops out

46:25

from behind, get into the back right behind

46:27

her and sticks a gun in the ribs.

46:30

And. Says Dr. And

46:32

starts pissing a her. He's

46:34

angry, he's smells horribly, and

46:37

Denise is frightened to death.

46:39

Ah, answer. she drives, but she

46:42

has the wherewithal. To drive

46:44

to a Cvs. This

46:46

is early in the morning. she's on her

46:48

way to work as she had just how

46:50

calling her younger sister Deborah and Bryant had

46:52

snatched the phone out so she never actually

46:54

got to see the called it a matte.

46:57

Never did he have something before the call

46:59

My dad. And she knows

47:01

there are cameras at that Cbs A.

47:03

She's hoping those cameras will see what's

47:05

going on. They. Taught there

47:07

for about an hour and eventually she

47:10

calms Brian down. Brian is crying like

47:12

a baby saying how ruined his life

47:14

is with haven't talked about his his

47:17

son Stafford's who's Now I'm seventeen years

47:19

old. Sixteen years old. And. Has

47:21

discovered photographs of him with prostitutes

47:24

are on his phone. He's a

47:26

have a very heavy sex addiction

47:28

isn't alcohol addictions and his wife

47:30

is spiraling completely out of control.

47:33

is horribly deposits. And

47:35

he's lost a son now because his

47:37

son won't speak to and based upon

47:39

what you seems his his his ex

47:42

wife Kathy knows all about the prostitutes.

47:44

His mother was dying of cancer at

47:46

the same time. Literally the world is

47:48

going into that. You know what for

47:51

hims. Com. And so. He's

47:53

not gonna lose at that point. he thought

47:55

he was gonna commit suicide, but he took

47:58

one final chance to convince Denise not. The

48:00

divorce some and she calms him down

48:02

and has unbelieving. They will meet later

48:04

that day and fry and Fox and

48:07

through. She. Drives him back to where

48:09

you parked. A suburban dropped him off. It's

48:11

funny, almost the bear the heat. He starts driving

48:13

and all of a sudden they're on the road

48:15

side by side. She's heading to her job which

48:18

is at Florida State and he side by side

48:20

with her and sheepishly he waved to her. As.

48:23

If they hadn't just and the last hour with

48:25

a gun to her ribs. And

48:27

a nice has no plans at that point

48:29

to go public of what just happened because

48:31

she knows the dark secrets the two of

48:33

them are hiding and a last name she

48:36

wants to do is be sitting with law

48:38

enforcement's talking about Bryant. Was. It

48:40

turns out. Her. Sister

48:42

calls her back. The. Sister that it

48:44

Only heard a word and then I got cut off.

48:47

Her. Sister's husband. Guess what? He's.

48:49

A police officer Israel has a police

48:51

departments address on the phone with the

48:54

nice and he says denise, you are

48:56

going straight to the Leon County Sheriff's

48:58

Office and you're gonna talk about what

49:00

just happened. They need to know This

49:02

is not something you can sweep under

49:04

the rug and that is the only

49:06

reason Denise wound up spilling forgot about

49:09

the kidnapping, not about even what might.

49:11

As we on county sheriff's office out

49:14

the same day that Brian can never

49:16

the same day that law enforcement would

49:18

go arrest Brian at his office at

49:21

Winchester Financial. The. Nieces and Leon County

49:23

Sheriff's Office for hours and eventually the

49:25

Florida former law enforcement says it's a

49:27

nice guy might have a me in

49:29

there to start talking with the news

49:31

about Might and what had happened to

49:33

my in it's. He. Has almost cringeworthy

49:35

wanting to nice eyes and her facial

49:37

expression as he's thinking how do I

49:39

steer this conversation away from the subject

49:41

of my that's Not What I want

49:43

to talk about. On

49:46

believe a little and that that

49:48

turn of events. The. Fact that

49:51

she rejected Brian. He. Kidnaps

49:53

her and then she goes to

49:55

the police. That was the unraveling

49:57

of their secret pact. Never tell

49:59

when. And. Because.

50:02

Then Brian be spurned lover

50:04

here. He is bitter

50:06

Me he's angry or hold on one

50:08

sec. Amateur Porn America popular. Had he

50:10

gets a message to the me, a

50:12

message that would figure prominently of the

50:15

trial. He. Wants be nice to

50:17

know that he's not talking. And.

50:19

He uses Happy as his

50:21

messenger to tell the nice.

50:24

That's. Used not talking.

50:26

So. That Denise doesn't them, he's already and

50:28

for kidnapping as he may go away for

50:30

ya. ten years, fifteen years. He doesn't want

50:32

us to turn into a murder rap for

50:35

him, so he wants to keep the nice

50:37

quiet and way he does. That is the

50:39

Tell thousand who's extremely good friends with the

50:41

nice up till this point. To. Tell

50:44

Kathy to tell. The. Nice

50:46

that he's not talking.

50:48

And that message was relayed to Denise

50:51

and it would figure prominently in another

50:53

conversation with the me. that happened in

50:55

two thousand and eighteen just before Deniers

50:57

was indicted for Mike's murder. or but

50:59

it took about a year. For.

51:02

Brian to finally realize that

51:04

his best way forward. Was.

51:06

To confess to authorities when he knew

51:08

about might. Otherwise, he was potentially going

51:10

away for a long time on the

51:12

kidnapping charges. Just. By themselves Are

51:14

you like the best? The I can make this

51:16

point. Is to let them know what

51:19

I know about what happened to my points.

51:22

So. Unbelievable when she

51:24

confesses Finally. so. You

51:27

say that would have been what? Twenty seventeen?

51:29

It would have been October Twenty seventeen when

51:31

he makes what are called proper statements which

51:33

Danny has to back up by showing that

51:36

he's not just be housing law enforcement, he

51:38

actually can deliver the goods. He

51:40

didn't deliver the goods because he

51:42

brought them to the very spot

51:44

at Lake Car where he'd done

51:46

that for seventeen years earlier. Buried.

51:49

Mike in that hole and the lake did

51:51

feel and over the years it was underwater

51:53

they actually had a move that wake. That.

51:56

Almost like create of the

51:58

gods miracle to. In my the

52:00

had a move the lake using all

52:03

kinds of special techniques and then get

52:05

a bunch of backhoes in there and

52:07

start digging and digging and digging into.

52:09

All of a sudden a blue tarp.

52:11

so it up as they gotten even

52:13

up. And sure enough in that blue

52:15

tarp were dozens and dozens of bones

52:18

which were Mike's bone. Some of the

52:20

clothing he was wearing and the most

52:22

chilling find they made that day was

52:24

exactly right on his left ring finger.

52:26

Still on the same. to improve. Currently

52:28

Goal doesn't disintegrate over seventeen. Years even

52:30

underwater was the gold ring for

52:32

that? That was his bond with

52:35

is beautiful. Wife is high school

52:37

sweetheart Denise still on his finger

52:39

seventeen years after Bryant had shot

52:41

his brains out. And

52:44

of course you would think well maybe

52:46

this would give me several the answer

52:48

at least no closure. But the answers

52:51

to what happened to might and what

52:53

ended up happening was it's center into

52:55

the dark. This place you can imagine.

52:59

See wanted to believe might might still

53:01

be alive that we only had one

53:03

where she allowed herself to finally recognized

53:05

that Mike was not alive. And

53:07

see could not talk to anyone

53:09

for months. She was very depressed

53:11

and in a very dark place

53:13

for months trying to process. Not.

53:18

Only that Mike was for sure

53:20

dead. But. Now the details

53:22

of who and how. And

53:24

why, which was darker than anything

53:26

you can imagine. Because. It

53:29

wasn't an accident. You know it's not

53:31

like oh, this happened and then these

53:33

idiots covered it up. No, no that

53:36

was that was not. This is also

53:38

deliberate and plant and so is very

53:40

very. Hard for her, some one of the darkest

53:42

moments for her. I

53:44

was astonished that Brian cut what

53:47

I think honestly for him as

53:49

a pretty good deal. Cause think

53:52

about this. The

53:54

deal he cuts his see

53:57

will get time. For.

54:00

The the kidnapping. What did he get? Twenty

54:02

years on kidnapping? You did Guess he

54:04

agreed twenty years grammarly to twenty Years.

54:06

As it turned out, He. And his

54:08

attorney believes you would get less than Tom

54:10

Tom And if and when the Our State

54:12

Attorney's office asked for forty years they believe

54:15

that they had reneged on the deal but

54:17

there was no diaz To the amount of

54:19

time that was can be left up to

54:21

the judge. By. They were horrified when

54:24

the State Attorney's office was asking for

54:26

as severe a punishment, especially. he was

54:28

the one who gave them what they

54:30

needed to find who killed how my

54:32

was killed. He pulled

54:34

the trigger though. hello suspects, are you dead But

54:36

he also could have taken that secret to his

54:38

grave. And. It's that was why

54:40

he thought he was gonna wind up in

54:43

prison for a much less time than twenty

54:45

years. Ah, these privileged people. But.

54:47

It was a deal with the Devil in fact

54:49

that chopper in my book about the proper and

54:52

what that Brian didn't said in order to confess

54:54

that the title That Shoppers The or The Dell.

54:56

It. Is it as a they made a real else

54:59

and. I think it is a sweet deal for him.

55:01

So he gets the twenty years on the kidnapping charts

55:03

and gets. Full immunity.

55:06

On the murder charge. And.

55:09

As part of this he has to reveal

55:11

where Mike is and he did! And.

55:14

Then he has to testify against

55:16

a Nice. And really, all the

55:19

evidence against a nice is basically

55:21

Brian's testimony. Plus. The inferences you

55:23

can draw from Denise fighting so hard

55:25

to keep Cheryl at Bain keep her

55:28

from not only fighting but literally taking

55:30

ends way away from her because she

55:32

persisted in getting investigation was why would

55:34

she do that if she were innocent

55:36

of described it makes no sense said

55:38

Nice was in a the fuck you

55:40

can testify but the nice his own

55:43

words as expressed is Cheryl were also

55:45

a powerful part of the evidence the

55:47

prosecution put off. It wasn't just what

55:49

Bryan said, it was made believable by

55:51

the nice his own words. And

55:53

actions during those seventeen years. And then

55:55

denise his words, the final thing we

55:58

have talked about is that conversation. Would

56:00

happen. Again coming back

56:02

to happy being the messenger

56:04

from Bryant Denise that let

56:06

her know that I'm not

56:08

talking. Well. The.

56:11

Reason why I was significant is because

56:13

only Denise would have known what Brian

56:15

wasn't talking about. Frank and this conversation

56:17

went on for some twenty two minutes

56:20

of the recorded conversation. See why they

56:22

I. Didn't a nice guy, Not not

56:24

a nice excuse me to not happy.

56:26

Brian's Weiss. I will. I write with

56:28

authorities say that she was wired and zero

56:31

of the authorities were listen to this conversation

56:33

saying. This one isn't reacting

56:35

like what are you talking about Happy, sad

56:37

I knew you love my I knew love

56:39

mine. And I and I was married

56:42

to Brian in yeah, I knew something was going on.

56:44

I knew y'all were having an affair and

56:46

why did you kill em up? Why did

56:48

I could be divorce? Why did you have

56:50

to kill him? And. A nice

56:53

to change the subject. She doesn't say

56:55

what the hell are you talking about,

56:57

she just tries to deathly change the

57:00

subject and especially this conversation about he's

57:02

not talking enough and. And and

57:04

so all that did he said was like. Marcus.

57:07

New Marcus's Branstad. So.

57:09

Wait, you're telling me that Marcus New

57:12

this whole time? That was the nice

57:14

his reaction to being essentially accused of

57:16

being the one who conspired with Bryant

57:18

commit this murder. And all she

57:20

says as with Marcus knew about that to

57:22

Brian's dad knew about that to instead of

57:24

saying. I didn't have any to do at

57:27

that. I have no idea what you're talking about. I

57:29

wasn't having an affair with Bryan. We

57:31

didn't inspire to kill might. Not.

57:33

Have that happen in the Twenty Two met

57:35

South it was. Denise is cold. And.

57:38

Calculated reaction to what Cathy was

57:40

essentially accusing her of on a

57:42

phone call that slammed her horribly.

57:44

The criminal trials well so her

57:46

taking as we away for threats

57:48

to Cheryl. And. Her

57:50

own words and that twenty two

57:52

minute conversation and the way she

57:54

dealt with have these accusations add

57:56

that to Brian's very powerful, unconvincing

57:58

testimony. And yes, There's enough to convict

58:01

her of at least conspiracy to commit murder.

58:03

Unfortunately for first degree murder conviction was later

58:05

thrown out. She had to be refinanced just

58:08

on the conspiracy. Yeah was

58:10

it is very interesting in the courtroom

58:12

casino What you see when. You're watching

58:14

a trial. you. Really can't see the

58:16

jurors and their reactions in you

58:18

can't As I say, read the

58:20

room And I do believe that

58:22

Denise and her attorneys didn't read

58:24

the wrong. They were not really

58:26

it's they did not have their

58:28

eye on the on this once

58:30

because you know Brian's testimony. Was.

58:33

Incredible. I. Mean, it really

58:35

was incredible. And then he breaks down

58:38

and is crying and he tells the

58:40

nice he still loves her and that

58:42

he saw it's I mean what drama.

58:44

It was like a soap opera up

58:46

there, you know. And he's giving us

58:48

all of the details. A horrible details

58:50

of what happened, the planning, the aftermath,

58:52

all of this. Ah, and his testimony

58:54

was. Crucial. In explaining

58:57

what happened but. When

58:59

Miss Cheryl took the

59:01

stand, I. Do believe that

59:04

that was the final nail in

59:06

the coffin where the jurors were

59:08

absolutely convinced. You have Brian describing

59:10

everything, the plan and details, and

59:12

all of the things that support

59:14

all of that. Denise is denying

59:16

that she had. Anything to do with

59:18

it and Brine as saying he is the

59:20

one who pulled the trigger. Okay, so now

59:23

it's Michelle's terms and see his. You.

59:25

Know. Getting a little

59:27

older now and so I we all ups of a

59:29

witness that yeah. She's we'll then you'll

59:31

see her, She's we'll then and

59:34

then they put her behind the

59:36

witness stand. Worst, she's gonna testify

59:38

and she is tiny so all

59:40

you really see is just her

59:42

head literally above the ledge. Use

59:44

a C or head in or

59:47

to pigtails. I'm very sympathetic and

59:49

I wanna play. This.

59:51

Clip. Now. This is

59:53

this is. Pretty. Much the same

59:55

that she had shared with me a

59:57

few years earlier on Crimewatch Daily. But

59:59

now she's telling the jury about the

1:00:01

threats. Let's. Play the clip. When the

1:00:04

article came out in the newspaper, Denise

1:00:06

called me on the food. She

1:00:09

was live and she said you

1:00:11

live near me to come over

1:00:13

here. Right now. We

1:00:17

went to her house. In.

1:00:20

The front yard. We warnings

1:00:22

uninvited inside. She was

1:00:24

screaming at me, she

1:00:26

was mad about the

1:00:29

article, and she sand

1:00:31

screaming at me, "I

1:00:33

don't ever hear my

1:00:35

name again ever wanna"

1:00:39

Picture. And the paper Again,

1:00:41

I don't ever want. Any

1:00:44

same you're doing about like that.

1:00:46

you. Have to get

1:00:48

with my life and I asked

1:00:51

her I said if that were

1:00:53

and silly and but like you

1:00:55

would just leave her there. And

1:00:58

she said I would really feel for

1:01:01

these. Then

1:01:04

she said. You

1:01:06

for says and trying to

1:01:08

get and criminal investigation. You

1:01:11

will lose. Enjoy. My

1:01:15

granddaughter smartphone marched on.

1:01:17

That is Michelle testifying in

1:01:20

December of Twenty Team. At

1:01:22

the murder trial of Denise Williams. Her

1:01:25

former daughter in law. Where

1:01:27

Miss Cheryl? Tell if the

1:01:30

court about the retribution. And.

1:01:32

The threats because I was sitting very

1:01:34

close to the jury. I

1:01:37

can tell you at that very moment. Everyone.

1:01:40

Is sighing? shaking their

1:01:42

heads? Kind

1:01:45

of like put in their hands on

1:01:47

their lap, slap in their notebooks, And.

1:01:50

I knew at that moment. That

1:01:53

was it. That. Know.

1:01:55

Mother. Could. Do

1:01:57

that to another mother. The

1:02:01

publicity spiteful thing. That.

1:02:04

Juri I. I do believe the jury

1:02:07

was already. Thoroughly convinced after

1:02:09

blinds. Testimony by Miss Searle. That

1:02:12

was if they were convinced at that

1:02:14

point I was. I was just who

1:02:16

is extraordinary. Her testimony was extraordinary man.

1:02:19

she gets wheeled out. As

1:02:21

showing testify for about twenty minutes the

1:02:23

after a short, very short. But.

1:02:25

Very impactful and

1:02:28

ah, I'm. It

1:02:30

did not take the jury long. To

1:02:33

make their decision I got on a plane

1:02:35

I had a go home. I sat with

1:02:38

miss the jury went out. I sat with

1:02:40

Massaro for a little while. We're we're waiting

1:02:42

and I have a photo. It's one of

1:02:44

my favorite photos of of us together to

1:02:46

the pictures. Were waiting for the verdict and

1:02:49

I'm going to share that with a room

1:02:51

and I've shared. A performance on social media

1:02:53

was just such a moment. That

1:02:55

waiting is unbelievable. And then

1:02:57

I got on a plane

1:02:59

and as I'm switching planes

1:03:02

and I finally lands, I

1:03:04

get old messages. Guilty

1:03:07

Guilty Guilty. So.

1:03:11

It's. Not over them because it's

1:03:14

never over with this case.

1:03:16

So Denise is found guilty

1:03:18

of conspiracy and. Murder.

1:03:21

That. in December of.

1:03:23

Twenty Eight team, then

1:03:26

to niece. And

1:03:28

her team. You. Know she still

1:03:30

believes that she's innocent, says she's in

1:03:32

a sense. They file appeals, and then

1:03:34

finally, November. Twenty Twenty. The

1:03:37

murder. Conviction is actually overturned by

1:03:40

the appeals court, and they

1:03:42

cite a lack of. Evidence.

1:03:46

But the court upholds

1:03:48

the conviction on the

1:03:50

conspiracy to commit. Murder.

1:03:55

So. Technically.

1:03:57

It's a murder charge, but it's not

1:03:59

murder. When you're an attorney, when you make of

1:04:01

this. Now. So am I will

1:04:03

tell you the reason it's it's kind

1:04:05

in the weeds for the real reason

1:04:07

why. The appellate court, i think correctly,

1:04:10

concluded that deniers could not be guilty

1:04:12

as a principal to First Remote or

1:04:14

is there has to be some active

1:04:16

involvement in the crime itself. To.

1:04:18

Convict someone in Florida. Of.

1:04:20

First degree murder and Brian's

1:04:22

testimony as riveting as it

1:04:24

was. He never said what

1:04:27

Denise did in relation to the

1:04:29

morning of December Sixteen, Two thousand

1:04:31

itself. Now. He did and

1:04:33

is proper. Talk. About. How

1:04:36

Denise had to give my extra special

1:04:38

permission because it was their anniversary and

1:04:40

basically shoved him out door and said

1:04:42

go, I want you to go. If.

1:04:45

That had come out during the trial

1:04:47

and been and evidence. I

1:04:49

think the first degree murder conviction

1:04:52

withstood. But. It didn't that never

1:04:54

came out of bronze. Now the questions were

1:04:56

asked and so all you had was Brian

1:04:58

describing the lead up to that morning, at

1:05:00

all of their discussions about what they were

1:05:02

going to do but without describing anything that

1:05:05

Nice actively did to get my to go

1:05:07

on this hunting trip. And without

1:05:09

that correctly under Florida law it was

1:05:11

not first degree murder which carries I'm

1:05:14

A Maxim, a Mandatory Life In

1:05:16

Britain. At So instead the

1:05:18

maximum punishment for conspiracy to commit first

1:05:20

degree murder is thirty years. Denise had

1:05:22

already been sentenced to thirty years on

1:05:25

that count, but fairly she had to

1:05:27

be reasons because that was kind of

1:05:29

a throwaway charge. Denise and already been

1:05:31

set sons to a mandatory life in

1:05:34

prison sentence so when just hang. concern

1:05:36

Initially son's birth. To. Didn't wear whatever

1:05:38

she got on. that's conspiracy can't really

1:05:40

didn't matter because she was being sentenced

1:05:42

to life. Now that this was the

1:05:44

only charge that she was convicted of,

1:05:46

she had to be sentenced again Judge

1:05:48

taken from their already retired and so

1:05:50

another judge staffs him to do the

1:05:52

censoring and the sensing proceeding is wild

1:05:54

because all of the nieces sisters at

1:05:56

share their information about Nice to Nice

1:05:58

comes out of prison. She talks

1:06:00

to the judge and here comes

1:06:02

easily strolling down the aisle. They

1:06:04

actually close the court room they

1:06:07

don't let cameras in and see

1:06:09

Literally bumps into sheriff's wheelchair as

1:06:11

she walks by her, doesn't make

1:06:13

eye contact with earth and tells

1:06:15

the judge why mommy's be set

1:06:17

free. They were actually looking for

1:06:19

the judge to say hi I'm

1:06:21

served. You. Can now we've all the

1:06:24

wonderful thing she's done in prison that she

1:06:26

never committed this crime. Hands Li said my

1:06:28

mother never would have done anything like this.

1:06:30

It was all Brian. And they

1:06:32

literally again thought. They. Were gonna

1:06:34

a party that night because Denise was when a

1:06:36

walk out of that court rooms a free woman

1:06:39

for time served on the conspiracy charge that in

1:06:41

their view was trumped up and never should have

1:06:43

happened. And

1:06:45

the sarah was really worried that she. Would be really.

1:06:48

I can tell you I had many conversations

1:06:50

with Cheryl during that time for it's where

1:06:52

I have a talker off the ledge she

1:06:54

was. She testified she was brilliant and her

1:06:56

testimony them was largely what it was at

1:06:58

the first sentencing hearing, but she was scared

1:07:01

to death. That the Nice was

1:07:03

gonna convince this new judge who didn't

1:07:05

see the evidence that Denise was this

1:07:07

innocent person who got caught up in

1:07:09

this horrible thing that brian dead and

1:07:11

she'd already been in prison for a

1:07:13

few years. Why cheaper there?

1:07:16

And the family was so. And and

1:07:18

in fact the attorneys were so adamant that

1:07:20

she was gonna get out. Even.

1:07:22

Cheryl was believing that until the

1:07:25

judge said no. Thirty.

1:07:27

Years as the right son's. Goodbye.

1:07:29

You're going back to prison and gonna spend

1:07:31

this for thirty years in prison. The same

1:07:33

sense that judge and can sense and given

1:07:35

her the original sense and she got again

1:07:38

and as the last she. Says

1:07:40

she gets thirty. Prank. That's twenty.

1:07:44

On average it out a little bit because one

1:07:46

started before the other and. The

1:07:49

most, they're both teams gonna get out. Miss Sixty.

1:07:51

She's gonna go of her seventies if they both

1:07:53

live that long. Amazing.

1:07:57

I insist. And as Cheryl just turned eighteen, Robbie.

1:08:01

First. Two thousand Twenty four, twenty four

1:08:03

years in quarter century has gone by.

1:08:05

Sarah went from beings are mid fifties

1:08:07

to being eighty. During. This

1:08:09

entire time for it. It

1:08:14

is an incredible horrible. Violent.

1:08:17

Trying City. That has fallen on

1:08:19

the Williams family. And. Sarah we

1:08:21

didn't talk about this, lost her husband the year

1:08:23

before. She. Lost her husband due

1:08:26

to a freak accident and some malpractice

1:08:28

in the hospitals. Out and he's gone.

1:08:31

And. Then this happens the year later and then

1:08:33

she loses and late and she still as you

1:08:35

said the Swedish the ask me about my wife

1:08:37

all the time every time we saw we speak

1:08:40

to ask me about the trips that I go

1:08:42

on about my kids. Sees. As

1:08:44

sweet and thoughtful and human a human

1:08:46

being as you're ever ever meet. Despite

1:08:49

everything that has happened her and everything

1:08:51

that she could be bitter about. She's

1:08:54

not. She's a terrific human being.

1:08:56

And. It's because of her. And finally

1:08:58

justice was done in this case. It

1:09:00

is because of her. It is

1:09:02

because of her. A

1:09:05

mother's power. Love. And

1:09:07

will. Can truly make a

1:09:09

difference. I just wish that the

1:09:11

Justice System had taken her more

1:09:13

seriously early on and it breaks

1:09:15

my heart to think that me

1:09:17

being you know, These.

1:09:20

Two families were treated differently

1:09:22

because. Fry. In. Winchester.

1:09:25

Came from money and Miss Cheryl with

1:09:27

the hard working woman in a double

1:09:29

wide. And I wonder. Whether.

1:09:32

The Justice System looked at them equally.

1:09:34

I don't think. That.

1:09:37

Well, at least today it is Miss

1:09:39

Cheryl who is talking to people like

1:09:41

you and me and making us feel

1:09:43

special and Brian Winchester and the nice

1:09:46

Williams Winchester Merrill whatever name you want

1:09:48

to get her, She's gonna spend the

1:09:50

vast majority the rest of her life

1:09:52

in prison. But. She got

1:09:55

seventeen years. She. Did, But they

1:09:57

were looking over their shoulder, those seventeen years looking

1:09:59

up and. The board that Cheryl was

1:10:01

putting up all over Tallahassee looking in

1:10:03

the newspaper, seeing the i'm As that

1:10:06

Sir on sudden the newspaper, seeing the

1:10:08

posters on this. Honor our

1:10:10

telephone poles, That does. Cheryl made sure of

1:10:12

that all over the neighborhood. Seen Meszaros. They

1:10:14

came out of their community church because she

1:10:17

was there with her picket signs. So she

1:10:19

was in their heads. And in fact, Brian

1:10:21

basically admitted that from the witness dance she

1:10:23

was in their heads the whole time. Out

1:10:27

she still in their heads. I hope. She's driving

1:10:29

them nuts. Up

1:10:31

see a font them every night. Oh

1:10:35

my goodness. Well this is to spin.

1:10:37

On unbelievable conversation.

1:10:40

I do. You know the one thing

1:10:42

about Cheryl is because she's such a

1:10:44

kind woman and she is race So

1:10:47

many to guess. She's reason many

1:10:49

children. She has this wonderful support system

1:10:51

around her. Not all these people it's

1:10:53

is raise their children but I met

1:10:55

them when I was in Tallahassee and

1:10:57

I've become friends with them on social

1:11:00

media where we message each other or

1:11:02

phone calls or anything like that and

1:11:04

I just I want to do an

1:11:06

acknowledgment to this. Group A

1:11:09

Very strong women who.

1:11:11

Are by several and stand by Sharon

1:11:13

and been with several through all of

1:11:16

this. many of them. New Mike I'm

1:11:18

so I want to swallow acknowledged A

1:11:20

nice Mario, George, Elena, Maria.

1:11:23

Sarah Carry. And.

1:11:26

Rosalyn because ah, I'm.

1:11:29

They're. The ones who keep an eye on Michelle. They.

1:11:32

Really? Do. They really the in

1:11:35

I am. I appreciate all of you.

1:11:37

Some y'all are wonderful. Women's just like.

1:11:40

It's. It's the things that as a. Reporter.

1:11:43

You know, You. Don't always including your.

1:11:45

Stories. It's. It's

1:11:47

not just the backstory, it's the

1:11:49

real life of a human being.

1:11:51

Have a life of the community

1:11:54

and you see that an accent

1:11:56

and a crime affects not only

1:11:58

the victim. Survivors. The

1:12:00

whole community and this crime

1:12:03

affected a whole community. A

1:12:06

whole community. So I thank you so

1:12:08

much Stephen I thank you so much

1:12:10

for joining us. I do wanna talk

1:12:12

a little bit on before we go

1:12:14

about your interest in a very very.

1:12:16

Nice part of. Crimes.

1:12:19

And murders committed in couples that.

1:12:21

As I was reading your on

1:12:23

your website, you know you're you're

1:12:25

divorced family law attorney. But.

1:12:27

You write about. Relationships with

1:12:30

Up Which. Otherwise are like kind

1:12:32

of normal. And then. They.

1:12:35

Go To this extreme. I'm

1:12:37

curious about that. Yeah. I mean

1:12:39

us To me. that's. Always.

1:12:42

Been I'm sorry. What? I've been a true

1:12:44

crime reader over the course of my life.

1:12:46

I've read books that are just like that

1:12:48

fatal Vision huge of the Jeffrey Mcdonalds is

1:12:51

I think is the first true crime book

1:12:53

I read with about the murder of this.

1:12:56

Wife. And her children on a

1:12:58

military base in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And

1:13:00

this guy who is for all these

1:13:02

years. Proclaimed. His innocence but

1:13:04

him to get him. Jonah Dennis was the

1:13:06

author, That book and several more and you're

1:13:09

destined for the psyche of like, what how

1:13:11

do you get from a loving a person

1:13:13

more than anybody else in the world walking

1:13:15

down the aisle with them. To.

1:13:18

Wanting to kill them. And

1:13:21

it's I think as fascinating and I

1:13:23

think that is why true crime. Particularly.

1:13:25

Babbel End of True Crime

1:13:27

is so interesting. Are both

1:13:30

podcasts yeah, Tb documentaries. And

1:13:32

in books is because. We're

1:13:35

all capable of that. That's the scary thing.

1:13:38

Is. Humans are capable of

1:13:40

top turning a loving relationships

1:13:42

into i'm an old might

1:13:44

do done divorcing clients. They

1:13:48

have a place in their heart that

1:13:50

has turned really afford toward the person

1:13:52

that they once loved very much. And

1:13:55

it doesn't take that much for.

1:13:57

That. Sergeant Far to be set off.

1:14:00

To a point. That. Murderer becomes

1:14:02

something that's conceivable. Arms

1:14:05

and they justify it in some way

1:14:07

or another. Here they were, denise justified

1:14:09

it because. Being. A

1:14:11

murderous was better than being a divorce divorce

1:14:13

and she couldn't divorce might as he certainly

1:14:15

wasn't gonna share custody with him so on

1:14:18

her mind. Why? Not just

1:14:20

kill him. nine on to share custody and

1:14:22

you don't have the stigma and society. Of

1:14:25

being a divorcee. To

1:14:27

please. Their. A That was

1:14:29

thousand rationale and Brian talk about

1:14:31

that from the witness stand. These

1:14:33

were people who consider themselves devout

1:14:35

christians, devout Christians Going to church

1:14:37

every we, going to Sunday school,

1:14:39

going to study groups, reading Christian

1:14:41

books, Dire rain

1:14:43

all their Christian thoughts. Are

1:14:46

ya see it offers. So I find that

1:14:48

riveting out at what should be a simple

1:14:50

divorce child custody. We're trying to do what's

1:14:53

right by way of your kids because that's

1:14:55

the most important things to were No, this

1:14:57

is about winning and losing and I am

1:14:59

not going to accept the world in which

1:15:02

you when I lose. I'm going to make

1:15:04

sure you lose because I'm going to blow

1:15:06

your brains out or whatever it takes to

1:15:08

that you out of the picture and ice.

1:15:11

And the other thing is that he's people

1:15:13

think they get away with it. And.

1:15:15

Of us are hard As as you already mentioned,

1:15:17

Brian is nice for seventeen years dead. Unbelievable.

1:15:21

And. Believable, I'm

1:15:24

Steven. Where can people follow you?

1:15:26

find your books? Just keep up

1:15:28

with you. Okay, saw not

1:15:30

as active on social media as others

1:15:33

would lie to me to be, but

1:15:35

I do have a very vibrant website

1:15:37

is W W W.stephen be Epstein my

1:15:39

name.com and all of my books are

1:15:42

there. I will tell you

1:15:44

that my next book that I'm working on

1:15:46

right now is not about I'm taking a leap

1:15:48

outside of the comfort zone that we just

1:15:50

talked about. It's about up a bank robbery gone

1:15:52

bad. Were for security guards, got killed. In.

1:15:54

The process of somebody robbing a bank in Denver,

1:15:57

Colorado And Nineteen Ninety One The Book is going

1:15:59

to be. The Deadly East. Ah,

1:16:01

so I'll point for my new book.

1:16:04

It'll be out of when. Twenty Twenty

1:16:06

Five. But does that is not one

1:16:08

involving relationships gone bad. That's involving somebody

1:16:10

wanted to the caused a lot to

1:16:12

have it at a bank emblem for

1:16:14

Vanguard shot up. And. Bloody and

1:16:16

walked away with two hundred thousand

1:16:19

dollars. On. Father's Day. Ninety Ninety

1:16:21

One. He. Ruined a whole lot of

1:16:23

Father's Day then and for evermore. Very.

1:16:26

Very sad and very very dark. we'll see

1:16:28

even in has been a pleasure to meet

1:16:30

you. My was ah

1:16:33

I wish you much success in

1:16:35

all of your books and ah

1:16:37

I will say this just based

1:16:39

on this one case. You are

1:16:42

very thoughtful very your excellent on

1:16:44

the details. You have corrected me

1:16:46

several times as you should mean

1:16:48

to I'm sorry Oh. No, not

1:16:50

at all. I mean that is a complete

1:16:53

as a total Compliments is a whole. Point

1:16:55

is to try and get it right and so that's. What

1:16:57

I'm saying: You honor the details and the

1:16:59

facts. And I so appreciate that. And I'm

1:17:01

I can see why Missouri likes you. Thank

1:17:03

you! That's a huge compliment in and of

1:17:06

itself. I really appreciate you having the on

1:17:08

and find it absolutely are I will. You

1:17:10

can find this episode and all. Our. Episodes:

1:17:12

Wherever you get your podcasts in, go

1:17:15

to our youtube channel. You can. Subscribe

1:17:17

to our newsletter it True Crime Daily.coms

1:17:19

You can find me on social media

1:17:21

and and news Anna with my nan

1:17:23

an awesome man! This has been incredible!

1:17:25

Thank you so much thank you thank

1:17:27

you thank you! This is when a

1:17:30

special edition or through same day the

1:17:32

fuck.