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1:03

Hello and welcome to the sidebar presented

1:05

by True Crime Daily, taking you inside

1:07

the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases

1:10

from across the country. I'm your host,

1:12

Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal

1:14

defense lawyer based in Los Angeles

1:16

and previously an LA county prosecutor

1:19

for nearly a decade. You can

1:21

find me on Instagram and Twitter

1:23

at JoshuaRitterESQ or at joshuaritter.com. We

1:26

are recording this on Friday, February

1:28

9, 2024.

1:31

In this week's episode, the latest on the

1:33

Delphi murders case as the suspected

1:35

killer Richard Allen has his attorneys

1:38

reinstated after months of delays in

1:40

the highly anticipated trial. Plus,

1:43

the parents of an only-fans model

1:45

who was charged with fatally stabbing

1:47

her boyfriend have been

1:49

arrested after allegedly attempting to

1:52

destroy evidence. But first,

1:54

a landmark verdict as the mother

1:56

of the Oxford High School mass

1:58

shooter has been convicted. on

2:00

four counts of involuntary manslaughter for

2:03

the lives taken by her son that tragic

2:05

day. Today we are

2:07

joined by Anjanette Levy, a Emmy

2:09

nominated reporter, legal correspondent, host on

2:11

the Law and Crime Network, and

2:13

a friend of the show, Anjanette,

2:15

welcome back. Thanks for having

2:18

me, Josh. I'm really excited to be here.

2:20

Oh, good. I'm looking forward to this too

2:22

because I know you follow these cases so

2:24

closely, and these

2:26

are some big moments

2:28

in some of these cases that we're gonna be

2:30

talking about, and I'm really curious to hear your

2:32

thoughts on them. So let's jump

2:34

right in. First we go to Detroit,

2:37

Michigan, where it's hard to imagine a

2:39

trial more closely watched by legal analysts

2:41

and parents alike than the recent

2:43

conviction of a mother of a school

2:45

shooter for her failure to intervene in

2:47

her son's actions. Jennifer Crumbly,

2:49

the mother of Oxford school shooter,

2:52

Ethan Crumbly, faced four counts of

2:54

involuntary manslaughter for the deaths of

2:56

four students who were killed in the

2:58

massacre. Prosecutors spent weeks meticulously

3:00

highlighting the actions of Jennifer Crumbly

3:03

the day of the shooting, criticizing

3:05

Crumbly for not taking the opportunity

3:07

to remove her son from school

3:10

after a teacher uncovered a disturbing

3:12

drawing and school officials called

3:14

a conference with the boy's parents. The

3:17

jury foreperson recently spoke with media

3:19

outlets claiming that for her, far

3:22

more problematic was the mother's failure

3:24

to keep the gun properly secured

3:27

from the child. Evidence in

3:29

the trial included footage of Crumbly firing

3:31

the weapon at a shooting range with

3:33

her son the last time

3:35

the weapon was seen before the fatal attack.

3:38

Crumbly is scheduled to be sentenced in April

3:40

of this year and could face up to

3:42

15 years in prison. She

3:45

has already been in custody for two

3:47

years since the time of her arrest.

3:49

Meanwhile, her husband, James Crumbly, will face

3:51

trial for the same four counts next

3:54

month. And Jeanette, like

3:57

I said, I know you follow this closely. I

3:59

first wanna know. what was your reaction

4:01

to this verdict? Was this surprising to you

4:03

or did you see this one coming? I

4:07

was a little surprised because I thought when

4:09

they went home the first night after

4:12

deliberating I thought maybe maybe

4:14

it'll be a hung jury because I could see

4:16

how if you're a parent you could think well

4:20

you know if it were my kid

4:22

am I really going to be held responsible

4:24

if my kid does something that I think

4:26

is unthinkable and that my kid wouldn't do

4:29

but then again you had him

4:31

at school with these drawings and

4:33

you gave him a gun even if you

4:35

say oh I bought it as a gift and we were

4:37

taking him to the range and we didn't think he was

4:39

going to put it in his book

4:42

bag and take it to school so

4:44

I wasn't completely surprised when they said they had a

4:46

verdict you knew it wasn't going to be a hung

4:48

jury because then they would have said they would have

4:50

brought the jury out and said there was a

4:53

hung jury and that they were sending them back in

4:56

or there was a mistrial so you

4:58

knew they weren't going to find her more than likely

5:00

not guilty I mean there were four students

5:02

dead and it just looked terrible

5:04

that you show up to school after

5:06

being called and say you're being told

5:08

there's an issue with your son he's

5:11

got these drawings but then you're like

5:13

instead of talking to your kid and saying okay

5:16

like I just put myself in her shoes and I

5:18

think to myself I would have had my kid brought

5:20

down and I would have said okay what's going on

5:22

or I would have taken him home and

5:24

we would have sat down in the living room or I

5:26

would have taken him out for ice cream and I would

5:28

have been like what what is going on like tell me

5:30

what's going on that is

5:33

so serious that that is not

5:35

like a joking matter and I even know at

5:37

my son's school if something like that had happened

5:39

there wouldn't have been any sending him back to

5:41

school or sending him back to class I mean

5:43

he's in elementary school they would have taken that

5:45

very seriously and so I

5:47

I'm not completely shocked and

5:50

the four-person had told some

5:52

media outlets including the today

5:54

show that Jennifer crumbly was really

5:56

the last person to be around that gun and

5:58

should have had it secured And when you

6:01

own guns, you do have a responsibility,

6:03

especially when you have children in the

6:05

house, to make sure they're secured and

6:07

to ensure that your kids don't have ready

6:10

access to them. Especially when

6:12

you have a child who is making claims like

6:14

this and saying things about things flying around, whether

6:16

it was months before or not. I

6:19

mean, he's literally telling his parents, like,

6:21

I need help. And you're

6:23

saying, suck it up and giving him a

6:25

melatonin or whatever. To me, it's

6:28

just nuts. I mean, I know a lot of

6:30

people are ignorant about this stuff, but but come

6:32

on, your kid is saying I need help. Yeah,

6:35

no, I mean, obviously, the jurors saw

6:37

that way. I will

6:39

admit I, I did

6:41

not see this coming. I agreed with

6:44

you. I thought after that first day,

6:47

you know, they're going to take the entire week and

6:49

then they're going to come back and say they're hung

6:51

because it's such a difficult question, as for all the

6:53

reason that you pointed out. And

6:55

that's why it's funny to me

6:57

because a lot, you know, people

6:59

who follow this, we've all been talking about it,

7:01

all the ins and outs and back and forth.

7:04

And it seems like the jurors, like

7:06

you pointed out, were most concerned

7:08

on the fact that she was

7:10

the last adult to handle

7:12

that gun beforehand. And it's almost like

7:14

they just made a very kind of

7:17

logical progression of you have a

7:19

troubled child, you have a gun in the home,

7:22

you're the last one who had it, you

7:24

didn't secure it properly. And therefore he went

7:26

out and did this horrible,

7:28

horrible thing. Sounds like it. Yeah,

7:32

I mean, I think it's that's that's it. I

7:35

mean, you had a kid who was

7:38

basically drawing this stuff

7:40

out at school. And

7:42

yet you bought him a gun for Christmas

7:44

to use at the range, you say, but

7:47

then you didn't make sure that thing was locked

7:49

up. So I think

7:51

you probably are, you know, in some respects, I kind of

7:53

look at it. This is the

7:55

first case where this has happened. Criminal

7:58

criminal, criminal case. at least,

8:00

where a parent was found liable. But

8:03

in some ways, the screams more

8:05

of civil liability to me. But

8:08

obviously, I think that there were so many bad

8:10

facts in

8:12

this case regarding the parents

8:15

just having more interest in doing a lot of

8:17

other things. I'm not saying they didn't love their

8:19

son, but it just seems like

8:21

a lot of other stuff was going

8:23

on in their lives that took priority

8:25

over their son's mental health, and of course,

8:28

making sure that gun was locked up. This

8:32

case obviously made news for several

8:34

reasons. It made news because it's

8:38

another school shooting. It was an awful

8:40

moment in history. It made news because

8:42

they charged the parents for the first

8:44

time, like we've talked about many times.

8:47

But I also think one of

8:49

the main reasons people are concerned with this

8:51

is they wanna know what happens now. What

8:53

are, it's hard to imagine a case in

8:55

recent history where people are asking the question

8:57

about the potential ripple effects

9:00

of this verdict. I'm

9:02

curious to hear your thoughts on that. Do you think

9:04

this case is kind of an outlier, distinguished by the

9:06

facts? Or do you think

9:09

that we might see more prosecutors

9:12

being more aggressive about this in

9:14

regards to either parents or teachers

9:16

or guardians moving forward

9:18

from here? I mean, I

9:20

think it certainly could set a precedent.

9:22

If there's another school shooting, possibly

9:25

they go back, maybe

9:28

they think, well, in Michigan, they went

9:30

looking to see what was going on with the

9:32

child, and then they went to see

9:34

what was going on with the parents. And that's what

9:36

they did here. And so

9:38

that might happen again. I mean, I kind of

9:40

think back to Sandy Hook. Would

9:43

they have done that in that case, had Adam

9:46

Lanza not killed his mother? Maybe,

9:49

because remember, she bought the gun for

9:51

him too. And

9:54

that was horrific. All

9:57

these things are horrific. So that was a

9:59

great question. different obviously because he killed

10:01

him. I mean that was very well

10:03

thought out by this child. Like he

10:06

killed his mother, he killed himself and then

10:08

destroyed his computer so they couldn't find a

10:10

lot of evidence. So I think

10:13

it does kind of set a precedent. This

10:16

may be an outlier in that maybe

10:19

you don't have parents of other school

10:21

shooters who are doing things

10:23

like giving a child who

10:25

has had mental health issues a gun

10:27

and having him have access to it.

10:29

I mean if you're going to have

10:31

a gun in your house and I

10:34

can say this because I have guns

10:36

in my house, not because

10:38

I want to because

10:40

they are my husband's, we

10:42

have a safe and it has a thing

10:45

you know a combination. Like nobody can

10:47

get into that thing unless you have

10:49

the combination. It's a very secure

10:52

thing and those

10:55

guns are never laying around.

10:57

I mean it's to the point

10:59

that we have laws

11:01

that gun manufacturers won't sell weapons without

11:03

some sort of securing device. Every time

11:05

you purchase a gun it comes along

11:08

with some sort of gun lock or

11:10

something that you're expected to use and

11:12

I know that you know

11:14

that may vary how people protect

11:16

their weapons in the home but it sounds like

11:20

obviously in this

11:22

case they didn't do enough that he

11:24

was able to have access to it being a

11:26

minor child and it sounds

11:28

like that's what the jurors were focused

11:31

on. So perhaps that may be like

11:33

you said in the Sandu Hook case

11:36

those facts were very similar. Perhaps that may

11:38

be something that's kind of a deciding factor

11:41

moving forward but this isn't the end of it

11:43

because now James Crumbly is going to go on

11:45

trial. They were tried separately. I think he's worse

11:47

off than Jennifer. Well first of all I just

11:51

want to say like I mean as a

11:53

public service announcement most law enforcement departments, police

11:55

departments, sheriff's offices if you want a gun

11:58

lock, if you have a gun, Those

12:00

places a lot of times will they have

12:03

them to hand out to the public free

12:05

of charge first of all. Second of all,

12:07

if you have guns in your house like

12:09

buy a safe, it's much more

12:11

it's much less expensive to

12:14

buy a gun safe that is secure

12:16

with a you know the doo doo doo

12:18

doo you know on it then

12:20

to have something like this happen. But

12:22

James Crumbly, he's the one that actually

12:24

purchased the gun. He's the one

12:26

telling his son and text messages to suck it up

12:28

and giving him a melatonin or whatever and I

12:31

just think he could be in a lot he

12:33

could be in a worse spot than his wife.

12:36

So you know maybe I'm

12:38

wrong about that but I will just have

12:40

to see how the evidence comes out but

12:43

just the fact that you're buying a handgun for a

12:46

kid come on like

12:48

a handgun like I lived in Wisconsin

12:50

that was where I lived for my

12:52

first reporting job and people up there

12:54

they hunt I mean they take

12:56

their kids hunting but it's like

12:58

with these long guns and you

13:01

have to supervise your child giving

13:03

a child a handgun is really

13:06

dumb. I mean I'm sorry like it's stupid

13:08

you know it's not like you were you're

13:10

taking him to the shooting range fine but

13:14

in there are different cultures surrounding this

13:17

in different parts of the country but

13:19

I just don't think it's a very smart thing to do.

13:22

No no and obviously the jurors agreed

13:24

with you and it's and like

13:26

you said it's more than just you know

13:28

like you said all people who

13:31

own a weapon should have that properly secured

13:33

at home especially if you

13:36

have children in the home and

13:38

especially if you have children who

13:40

have demonstrated they're dealing with mental

13:42

health a mental health crisis

13:44

that may include violence. I mean it

13:46

one of the things that was pointed

13:48

out is that they sat there in

13:50

that meeting did the school talking

13:53

about the troubling things their child was doing and

13:55

did he inform them that by the way we

13:57

have a weapon in the house. Like

14:00

how about like hey Jen or hey James.

14:03

Hey, where's that gun? Like do you know where

14:05

that gun is? Like I Don't

14:08

get it Like I don't get it and if my

14:10

kid and I get that not a lot of people

14:12

are informed about this stuff A lot of people are

14:14

not I mean Josh we

14:17

see such horrific horrible things in our

14:19

jobs I mean, so we are very

14:21

probably like hyper aware of this stuff

14:24

But you have to you have to kind

14:26

of like, you know, if my

14:28

kid is saying something like that I

14:31

am gonna be darn sure He

14:34

literally cannot get into

14:36

the gun safe and I'd probably be going to my

14:38

husband and being like I want that thing out of

14:40

the House like I want that safe out of the

14:42

house now figure it out Like, you know if and

14:45

our kid is going down to the

14:48

psychiatric unit of the local Children's Hospital

14:51

And we're fixing this now Yeah

14:56

one last Topic I wanted to

14:58

ask you about this in and I agree with

15:00

you about James Crumbly I in my

15:02

view she had the stronger case as far as the

15:04

defense She has a point as I

15:06

can see she could point toward him being he's

15:08

the one that bought it The gun was kind

15:10

of his thing with Ethan. I

15:12

we Was kind

15:14

of out of it. Obviously the jurors didn't feel

15:17

that way But that's the defense she was trying to

15:19

make and I and James doesn't have

15:21

those same defenses My question

15:23

though is he is getting

15:25

a separate trial. He's getting new

15:28

jurors. He is getting new attorneys He's getting

15:30

a whole different argument things could turn out

15:32

differently. No one is saying this is a

15:34

slam dunk What do

15:36

you think it's gonna be the reaction if

15:39

he gets acquitted of this now? You have

15:41

a mother convicted and the father acquitted and

15:43

they both seem to share culpability I

15:48

Mean it could be very interesting who knows what

15:50

his attorneys are going to do and you know,

15:52

I will say I You

15:55

know, I hate to be critical of people but

15:57

her attorney and at some points. I'm like, is

15:59

this that? But was this an act? You

16:02

know, this whole like, oh, I

16:05

don't know how to pronounce cash, I'm

16:07

calling it a cache of guns and

16:09

oh, look at me, I'm a mess

16:11

throughout this whole case and my leaning

16:13

power of pizza files. I

16:16

was like, is this kind of an

16:18

act? Because then in her closing, she

16:20

said, I could be her. You've

16:22

seen all my flaws, you know, and all

16:24

this stuff. I'm like, maybe this whole thing

16:26

was a shtick so that she could later

16:28

in closing say, look, none of us are

16:30

perfect and I could be her. But

16:33

maybe his attorneys have, I don't

16:36

know, maybe they've got some rabbit

16:39

they're going to pull out of the hat. Maybe

16:41

there's something he's going to say if he gets

16:43

on the stand that will show that, I

16:47

don't know, like I thought she, I thought Jennifer had

16:49

the gun locked up. I don't know. Like

16:51

she was the last one to have it. How am I supposed

16:53

to know? You know, like who knows? He may throw her under

16:55

the bus. In

16:58

all my years of doing trials, the

17:00

only guarantee I can give you is

17:02

there's no guarantees and that I don't

17:04

care how true,

17:07

how strong you feel your case is. You

17:10

go in there and things happen

17:12

and jurors see things different ways

17:14

and arguments are made and the

17:16

judge makes decisions that were no

17:18

one anticipated and things just

17:20

turn out differently. That's not to say that our

17:22

criminal justice system is a crapshoot, but

17:24

I'm just saying that you cannot, you

17:27

cannot be guaranteed

17:29

any kind of resolution how these things

17:31

are going to turn out. So well,

17:34

like I said, we're going to be talking about it

17:36

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17:39

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mintmobile.com. Let's. Turn

20:25

to Indianapolis, Indiana, where Indiana's Higher

20:27

court has released their opinion on

20:29

a number of motion filed by

20:32

the suspected killer of to Delphi

20:34

teams Richard Allen, who has been

20:36

charged with the murder of Abby

20:38

Williams and Libby Germans had been

20:41

granted at the opportunity to have

20:43

his original legal counsel reinstated following

20:45

their abrupt dismissal by a trial

20:47

court judge last year. In the

20:50

ruling, the court justice noted that

20:52

the trial judge did not have

20:54

the authority. To disqualify Allen's

20:56

attorneys without considering other options.

20:58

Despite the alleged evidence leagues

21:00

and gag order violations, While

21:03

the court allowed Allen to

21:05

retain his original council, his

21:07

request to remove the trial

21:09

judge was denied. Allen's defense

21:11

team also filed a motion

21:13

this week to have criminal

21:15

charges dismissed on the basis

21:18

of allegedly destroyed evidence. Get

21:20

this. this week's motion claim

21:22

someone destroyed multiple interviews recorded

21:24

between February. Fourteenth and Twentieth a

21:26

two thousand and seventeen. These interviews,

21:29

according to the defense, could play

21:31

a vital role improving Allen's innocence.

21:33

A hearing is scheduled for February

21:35

Twelfth. Finally, Allen's requests for the

21:37

trial to commence within seventy days

21:39

was also denied, with the court

21:41

citing Allen's failure to filed a

21:44

request with the trial court. Now,

21:46

the fiasco of Allen's legal counsel

21:48

has been resolved. The trial is

21:50

a sensibly on track to begin

21:52

on October. Okay, And.

21:54

jeanette first talk to us

21:56

about this back and forth

21:58

battle about his defense team.

22:01

What is the significance of all of this? Why

22:04

were why was the judge trying to kick him

22:06

off? Why was he asking for them back? fill

22:08

us in. Well a friend

22:10

of one of the attorneys leaked

22:13

graphic crime scene photos

22:16

to podcasters and youtubers

22:18

and those photos ended

22:20

up on the internet of

22:22

course and how you know when things

22:24

get on the internet Josh as you

22:26

know they're there forever. I'm

22:28

sure somebody if they went digging deeply

22:30

enough they could find these awful awful

22:33

photos showing these poor girls murdered

22:36

horrifically and so this

22:39

friend went to the law

22:41

office took photos of the

22:43

photos and then leaked them

22:45

to somebody. So the judge

22:49

as a remedy said well these guys

22:51

have to get off the case and

22:53

so she came out and said well

22:55

they they you know she came out

22:57

after a in chambers meeting with those

22:59

lawyers one day and

23:02

she she informed everybody they've withdrawn.

23:04

Well they were like no we

23:06

didn't you're saying we withdrew we

23:08

didn't want to withdraw and Richard

23:10

Allen wanted to keep those lawyers.

23:12

He believes in this defense team

23:15

and he felt that they shouldn't have been

23:17

removed by judge Gulls so he

23:19

took it to the high court the

23:22

high court agreed and he was allowed to keep

23:25

his defense team was reinstated.

23:28

Judge Gull I'm sure did not like

23:31

that her decision was overturned by

23:34

the Supreme Court because this is a high-profile

23:36

case so to me it makes her look

23:38

bad like she really screwed up and

23:41

so it gets sent back to

23:43

her and now the prosecution wants

23:45

these attorneys they

23:48

want some sort of sanctions against them they

23:50

filed for this and they're

23:52

asking for that hearing to be delayed because

23:54

they're saying we don't have counsel for this

23:56

we don't have time to prepare for this

23:58

hearing on the 12th. We

24:00

just got back on the case. So

24:02

it's a big mess. Richard

24:04

Allen wanted Judge Gall off the case. I'm sure

24:06

that made her mad too. The

24:09

high court said, no, we're not going to do that. So

24:12

the case is back with Judge Gall as

24:14

it always was. But I

24:16

just think it's looked very inept.

24:19

Plus, the charges are not going to get

24:22

dismissed. First of all, that's not going to

24:24

happen, in my opinion. I will, you know,

24:26

have egg on my face if that happens.

24:29

Just because they deleted these interviews,

24:32

which is insanity to me, even

24:34

if they were on tape, there should

24:36

be a typed up transcript as well.

24:39

You know, they're saying this is exculpatory

24:41

evidence that could help Richard Allen and

24:44

his defense. There should be

24:46

another record of this somewhere. And if there

24:48

isn't, then that is a huge mistake. So

24:50

I don't think the

24:52

charges are going to get tossed because

24:54

of that. But it's just another thing

24:56

with this case that looks like it's

24:58

been mishandled. Yeah. And

25:01

we were talking about this a

25:03

little bit before we began, that

25:05

it seems like you see this

25:08

pattern of these really high profile,

25:11

national tension type cases that happen to take

25:13

place in these smaller jurisdictions. And I don't

25:15

want to get hate mail from people saying

25:17

that they can't handle big cases in small

25:20

towns. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just

25:22

saying that sometimes it seems as

25:24

though everybody can't get out

25:26

of their own way. It's a

25:28

big case that they know everyone is paying

25:30

attention to and they start to do things

25:32

differently than they normally would have. And it

25:34

leads to all these types of mistakes that

25:36

you're talking about, which the

25:39

tragic result of all of that is

25:41

you've got a very important case here

25:43

about two murdered children that's now got

25:45

all of this noise and nonsense surrounding

25:47

it. The

25:50

judge, I'm just going to weigh in on these things

25:52

really quickly, but the judge refusing to

25:54

allow a defendant to have his own

25:56

attorneys of his choosing when those attorneys

25:58

are saying that they're saying we want to

26:01

be his lawyer is nearly

26:03

unheard of. It's a constitutional right.

26:07

Now, that doesn't mean that a judge right. It

26:09

doesn't mean a judge can't find some extenuating

26:12

circumstance to say she's not going to allow

26:14

that. But this didn't seem to rise to

26:16

that level. So you're right, goes to the

26:19

Supreme Court, they agree with both what you

26:21

and I are saying, send it back down.

26:23

And now you do have a situation where

26:26

you've got these attorneys who know the judge

26:28

wanted them kicked off for essentially being inept.

26:32

And they've got a judge that they are

26:35

they going to feel like they're going to get

26:37

a fair shake out of the thing is the

26:39

defensive defending going to feel that way. I think

26:41

she should have recused herself but I still on

26:43

the case. Yes. And then

26:46

right with you. And can I

26:48

just say Josh, like that Delphi,

26:50

Indiana, I just googled it, the

26:52

population of Delphi, Indiana is 2900

26:56

and 72 according to the 2021 numbers.

27:00

That is a very small town. Yeah.

27:02

Okay. So that is

27:04

not the type of place that deals

27:06

with a lot of homicide cases. And

27:08

you add in the fact that this

27:10

was two young girls, okay,

27:14

around Valentine's Day, this

27:17

scared the I'm sure just the

27:19

daylight out of that community. You've

27:22

got these grieving families, you've got

27:24

national attention on it. I'm

27:26

sure this would have been a lot

27:28

for any jurisdiction to handle. Oh,

27:30

absolutely. And then you bring in the

27:33

feds, you get all these different cooks in the

27:35

kitchen, you know, to handle this

27:37

case. It's a big deal.

27:39

And I mean, they brought in ISP, Indiana State

27:41

Police, of course, first, that's what a lot of

27:43

these, I mean, I covered in cases in Indiana

27:45

when I worked in local news. So they always

27:47

bring in Indiana State Police first,

27:50

because they have more expertise in handling

27:52

homicide investigations, but then they bring in

27:54

the feds. And so you get all

27:57

these cooks in the kitchen and everybody's

28:00

got a finger in it somewhere and

28:02

doing something. And so I

28:04

just think that these things tend to turn into

28:06

a mess. And I do think that Judge Gull,

28:09

she's looking, she and the prosecutor are kind

28:11

of looking a little bit like sour grapes

28:13

here with this like

28:16

motion for sanctions because of the

28:18

photographs. I mean, if you're

28:21

a lawyer, Josh, and you're a friend that

28:23

you trust comes over to your office and

28:25

he just kind of traipses into the conference

28:27

room where you've been working and he takes

28:29

some photos, that's your friend's

28:31

fault. And he screwed up. And

28:34

that guy is facing criminal charges right now.

28:37

You should like not be friends with him anymore. That's

28:40

a really big deal. He violated your trust.

28:43

So should these lawyers really face

28:45

sanctions when somebody did something to

28:48

betray their trust like that? I don't know. I

28:51

mean, if it clearly comes out that way that

28:53

they had no role in it, then I think

28:55

absolutely not. Yes,

28:58

the judge put this all under gag order.

29:00

And in any criminal case, you're expected to

29:02

protect that evidence and not just hand it

29:05

out to the public. But

29:07

accidents happen. You want to know how we

29:09

know accidents happen. The prosecution

29:11

apparently recorded over some very important

29:13

interviews before they handed that over

29:15

to the defense. So no one's

29:17

perfect. No one's without blame in

29:19

this entire case. And

29:21

just to close the loop on that

29:23

conversation, that's even more troubling

29:26

to me is the fact that

29:28

you have evidence that's now been destroyed that the

29:30

defendant can't get to that appears to be something

29:32

that they would have liked to have explored. And

29:34

I agree with you. No way the judge is

29:36

going to dismiss this case. No way.

29:39

Two murdered children, the entire country watching.

29:41

No way. And so what

29:43

does she do? She'll say, I'll allow you to

29:46

get into it on cross examination. And that that's

29:48

just not a sufficient answer. I'm sure they're going

29:50

to have a field day with it and talk

29:52

about how inept this this investigation was and blah,

29:54

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that

29:56

that to me, I don't I don't know if

29:59

that is a satisfaction. factory remedy for all of

30:01

this. But Josh, also, I

30:03

mean, you were a prosecutor, you're

30:05

now a defense attorney. They

30:07

should have, even if it's on tape

30:09

or whatever they were using, a CD,

30:12

a digital recorder, there should still have

30:14

been a written record, whether

30:17

it was a summary or a written

30:19

transcript of that

30:22

to accompany the recording.

30:25

I am sure someone took notes at

30:27

the bare minimum. I've got some notes.

30:29

Notes stink. Notes stink.

30:32

I want a transcript. Right, right. You're

30:34

supposed to hand that over to, like,

30:36

some typist person at the

30:39

sheriff's office or the whatever, and they're supposed

30:41

to transcribe this and make sure that, I

30:43

mean, that's what I've seen in cases

30:45

where there's something like, I mean, I thought that's

30:47

how it worked, is that you're supposed to have

30:50

both, but maybe I'm wrong. I mean, maybe they

30:52

do it different in Indiana, but... Well, no, you're not

30:54

wrong. I mean, your friend's got into maximum

30:56

security prison when he's not even been convicted of

30:58

a crime. Give me a break. This

31:00

whole thing is just a hot mess. And

31:02

like we've been saying, this is

31:04

not a small case for that department.

31:07

So you would imagine they would be

31:09

taking extra efforts to make sure they're

31:11

doing everything right. And if

31:13

that means you take the audio recording and immediately

31:15

hand it over to have somebody transcribe it, you

31:17

go ahead and do that, but you don't wait

31:20

years and then find out that the thing got

31:22

destroyed and you don't have a backup, like you

31:24

said. It's

31:26

a mess. End of story, you put it

31:28

best. The whole thing is a mess. And

31:32

it's, you know, apparently going to go

31:34

to trial sometime this year. We'll see. I'm

31:36

sure we're going to hear a lot more about that case before

31:38

it actually gets inside of a courtroom.

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restrictions apply. See mintmobile.com. Finally,

32:43

we turn to Miami, Florida, where the

32:45

parents of an only fans model who

32:47

was charged with her boyfriend's murder found

32:50

themselves in hot water last week after

32:52

authorities arrested the pair in connection with

32:54

the case. Courtney

32:56

Clenny, who was arrested in August of 2022,

32:59

stands accused of fatally stabbing her

33:01

boyfriend, Christian Obamseli, in the midst

33:03

of a heated argument. Now

33:05

her mother, Deborah Clenny, and father,

33:08

Kim Clenny, have been charged with

33:10

unauthorized use of a computer for

33:12

their alleged misuse of a laptop owned

33:15

by the victim. Prosecutors

33:17

claim the parents gained access to

33:19

the computer, which was not collected

33:21

in investigators' initial sweep, in an

33:23

attempt to conceal evidence. An

33:25

attorney for Clenny's claims that

33:28

the charges are without merit, alleging that

33:30

prosecutors are attempting to control the narrative

33:32

by preventing the parents from speaking ahead

33:34

of a gag order hearing this week.

33:38

Clenny has now been charged with

33:40

computer-related offenses along with the second-degree

33:42

murder charge she was already

33:45

facing. However, Clenny's defense maintains

33:47

that the victim's stabbing was

33:49

an act of self-defense, claiming

33:51

that the relationship was tumultuous

33:54

and alleging that her boyfriend was abusive. The

33:57

parents have bonded out on custody while their daughter is

33:59

in custody. remains behind bars ahead of

34:01

her trial. And

34:04

Jeanette, what is going on here? Is

34:07

this parents doing all

34:09

that they can to protect their daughter or

34:11

is this something far more nefarious in your

34:14

view? Well, it certainly doesn't look

34:16

good. Trying to get

34:18

passwords to get into somebody's computer, to

34:20

look for things that might be incriminating

34:22

to your daughter. It looks terrible. And

34:25

I'm sure that every parent would want to

34:27

do whatever they could to help their daughter. But

34:29

when you start talking about something like this, it's

34:32

very, very serious. And

34:35

they were kind of texting, according

34:37

to the prosecution, lawyers for

34:39

Courtney Clenny, trying to find passwords and things

34:41

like that. So I

34:44

mean, the

34:48

lawyers for Courtney Clenny, and I've interviewed

34:50

them, I've also interviewed the attorneys representing

34:52

the Abamsulli family. And this

34:55

is going to be a very contentious case.

34:57

I mean, both sides are pointing the finger

34:59

at the other. Both will say this was

35:01

a toxic relationship between Courtney and

35:04

Christian. And these two should not

35:06

have been together. And they

35:08

argued, they fought. One says

35:11

the other was abusive to the other. And

35:13

Courtney's claiming she was defending herself.

35:16

But Christian's family says, no, she

35:18

was the abuser the entire time. And

35:21

we see all these tapes and everything of her. I

35:24

don't think we've seen anything of him. I've

35:26

not seen anything of him abusing her. But her

35:28

attorneys claim they're going to present evidence of him

35:30

being abusive at her trial. This

35:33

is not a good look. This is not good.

35:35

I mean, because at trial, they're going to say

35:38

she had she and her parents were kind of

35:40

working together to possibly destroy evidence

35:43

of her wrongdoing. So

35:45

I don't know if every parent goes to

35:47

this length when their daughter is charged with

35:49

a crime. I do know

35:51

that, and if you read the complaint,

35:54

Courtney did call her mother apparently

35:56

after Christian was stabbed. The

36:00

prosecution is saying that looks, you

36:02

know, that's a bad fact for Courtney.

36:05

So I don't know. I think

36:07

we'll have to wait and see how this plays

36:09

out. Is she going to call by the way?

36:11

I mean, that's not stupid talking to me. Oh,

36:13

I see what you're saying. Like, her first call

36:16

wasn't to get help. But

36:18

don't call your mom. Call 911. I

36:20

get it. I get it. Yeah. You

36:23

bring up the point, Anjanette, that there,

36:25

there is, at least, I've seen video

36:27

that's making the rounds on the internet

36:29

of her. What

36:32

looks to be pretty, pretty violently going

36:34

after him inside of an elevator. And

36:37

I think the point being, not

36:39

so much that they had this tumultuous

36:41

and perhaps even physically violent relationship, but

36:43

he looks like he's not really responding

36:45

to much of it, which

36:48

might build itself into the prosecution's case.

36:50

We'll wait to see if

36:52

the defense has evidence to

36:54

show otherwise, which they claim. Again,

36:56

I'm so happy that we have you on this

36:59

show because you do have access, having interviewed

37:01

all of the people involved in all of

37:04

this. One of the things that

37:06

we're hearing about arguments being

37:08

made by her team is that this

37:10

was a shared computer. And that's an

37:12

interesting point to me. If it's a

37:14

computer they both use, then it's not like

37:17

they're inappropriately accessing

37:20

something unless they're going

37:22

on there to destroy stuff and wipe it. What are your thoughts? Well,

37:27

if they're going on there to destroy items

37:29

that could be evidence, then

37:33

that is definitely bad. It's all about their

37:35

intent. Yeah. And end of story period. That's

37:37

a crime. But if they don't, if

37:40

they're allowed to have access to simple accessing of it,

37:42

what do you, is that a crime? Well,

37:45

I don't think acts, I mean, if

37:47

she's saying mom and dad, I need you to get into this

37:49

laptop because I, I need you to get my banking information. That's

37:51

one thing. If they're going on there, you

37:53

know, according to what I read, the

37:56

complaint from, the

38:00

state, and I'm sure the defense

38:02

could say, well, they're just cherry picking whatever.

38:05

They were trying to actively get into

38:07

this laptop and they're asking Courtney's defense

38:10

attorneys for possible passwords, and they're like,

38:12

we don't have anything. It's

38:14

all about why they were trying to get on the computer.

38:17

That's going to be the question. And

38:19

apparently there are text messages discussing this.

38:21

So the question is, why were they

38:23

trying to get in there and what

38:25

was their intent? And

38:28

did they have a right to get in

38:30

there as well? I mean, if that is

38:32

clearly his property, then murder

38:35

case or not, they're essentially trying to

38:37

break into someone else's property, which is

38:39

a crime in itself. So I mean,

38:41

it was whatever happened, it's enough that

38:43

the prosecution made an arrest. So that's

38:45

pretty unheard

38:48

of territory to start arresting the parents

38:50

of people. Kind

38:53

of like in the Crumbly case. I was just going

38:55

to say, not entirely unheard

38:57

of, but apparently we're seeing a

39:00

trend. But my

39:02

last kind of point on

39:04

this was the gag order

39:06

in this case. As

39:09

a reporter, it seems

39:11

to me we're seeing this

39:13

happen more and more where prosecutors are

39:15

asking for these gag orders in these

39:18

high profile cases. And they're saying, you

39:21

know, media access is becoming what

39:23

it has become. We

39:25

have to protect the sanctity

39:27

of this case and the integrity of the

39:29

trial. But

39:31

it is creating this kind of trend,

39:35

at least in my view, of cases where

39:37

we really don't know what's going on because

39:39

no one's able to talk. What are your

39:41

thoughts, especially as a reporter who covers this

39:43

stuff? I really

39:45

cannot stand gag orders. I think

39:47

they're obnoxious. I think that

39:50

if you have, and I know it's funny

39:52

because in the Idaho case, Judge Judge, and

39:55

that's his name, Judge John Judge, Judge

39:57

Judge says, well, it's not a gag

39:59

order. It's a non-dissemination order and

40:01

I'm like, okay, whatever.

40:04

Yeah, right. Nobody's talking

40:07

because of your the order that they agree

40:09

to. But anyway, and I like

40:11

Judge Judge, you know, I think he's

40:13

pretty level-headed guy, but I do

40:16

not like them. I

40:18

think that attorneys hide behind these when

40:21

they don't want to answer questions. I

40:23

get that they want to preserve a

40:25

defendant's right to a fair trial. But

40:28

at the same time, I think that these

40:30

are used by attorneys at times when

40:32

they just don't want to deal with the press

40:35

or they don't want to put information

40:37

out there. They

40:40

can still talk. This

40:42

is what drives me crazy about gag orders

40:44

because the first time I ever encountered a

40:47

gag order on a case was back in 2006. The

40:52

lawyers could talk to us, but the

40:54

prosecutor had held this outrageous

40:57

press conference that ticked everybody

40:59

off. You know, it was just too graphic, really

41:01

saw this graphic of information that was in a

41:03

criminal complaint, shouldn't have done it, should have held

41:05

a press conference but not gone into all this

41:07

detail, right? So

41:09

they were allowed to still talk

41:11

to us about filings or to clarify information

41:13

like, okay, this is a motion to do

41:15

this or a motion to do that. They

41:17

just didn't want them going on TV and

41:20

granting all these interviews and saying all these

41:22

different things about the case in

41:24

advance of the trial. That's a totally different

41:26

thing. But I think that it

41:29

is very difficult to report on a case when

41:31

you have attorneys, prosecutors and defense attorneys are

41:34

like, oh, but there's a gag order, so

41:36

we can't say anything or a nondiscimination order,

41:38

so I can't say anything. Well,

41:40

that is not entirely true. I mean,

41:42

as long as you're not out there

41:44

on the courthouse steps or whatever, making

41:47

prejudicial, statements

41:50

about the defendant or the prosecution's

41:53

case, I think that you

41:55

should still be able to talk a little bit. And

41:58

so I think that these things go to the court. to

42:00

the extreme and sometimes both sides use

42:02

them and they hide behind them just

42:04

because they don't want to deal with the

42:06

press. That's just my opinion and I think it's

42:09

obnoxious. It drives me nuts. I

42:12

agree with you in

42:14

your overall point that I think

42:17

they're being over overused and that they they

42:19

can become obnoxious and the other thing they

42:21

do is they tend to ironically

42:26

sometimes promote bad

42:28

information because some rumor will get out there

42:31

and there's no one to really correct it

42:33

and now everybody's kind of running on this

42:35

speculation of stuff that they found on the

42:37

internet and it none of it proves

42:40

to be true and I can

42:42

understand it. It turns into anonymous

42:45

sources right so you get

42:47

information from these anonymous sources

42:50

and it's like okay which

42:53

anonymous sources because I there have been

42:55

cases where I've seen some anonymous source

42:57

information that later turned out to be

43:00

not true. It was false. So

43:03

I think that it breeds that as well.

43:09

But at the same time I can understand that we

43:13

live in an age where just people have

43:15

so much access to information and you don't

43:18

want a jury pool that is completely tainted

43:21

before they're even picked and

43:24

you also don't want your current sitting

43:26

jurors to just be inundated with so

43:28

much coverage that they they can't avoid

43:30

it even if they try to. At

43:33

the same time I mean part of our system

43:35

is that it is it is open. It is

43:37

we do pull back the curtain. We do want

43:40

to hear what

43:42

people are you

43:44

know what's going on in the

43:46

minds of the the defense team

43:48

and the prosecution but I

43:50

agree with you. I I don't know I

43:53

just think a more balanced approach rather than

43:55

these kind of hard line approaches these judges

43:57

seem to be taking no. I

44:00

think that there has to be a balance. There

44:02

should be a balance. And

44:05

I think it's gotten worse with social media. OK,

44:08

and I get that. Everybody's got a cell

44:10

phone. They get push alerts. They

44:12

see stuff on these Facebook groups or what

44:14

have you. But at the same time,

44:17

Josh, I mean, I don't know how many times I've

44:19

sat through jury selection and

44:21

jurors have said stuff like, well, I don't really

44:23

believe what I see on the news. And frankly,

44:25

who's watching the local news every night?

44:28

Nobody. Nobody's doing that. I

44:31

mean, no offense to my friends who work in

44:33

local news. But look at a reading sheet. Nobody's

44:35

watching anymore. So everything's coming in

44:37

on your cell phone or your

44:40

on a Reddit group or what have you.

44:42

So it's just a different delivery these days.

44:46

Yeah, and

44:48

despite our efforts, unless

44:50

you're going to lock people in a room without a

44:53

cell phone for the entire duration of the trials, it's

44:56

going to happen, especially on these

44:58

super high-profile cases. Josh, can you

45:01

even imagine sequestering a jury these

45:03

days? They would revolt. Oh,

45:05

there's no way. There is no way. They would just, you know

45:07

what they would do? They would just not

45:09

show up and then threaten the judge, you

45:13

know, dare the judge to actually lock them up for

45:15

it. No, there's no way. You're going to take my

45:17

cell phone away? That's like my third arm. No. For

45:20

like four weeks? No, I don't think so.

45:23

Yeah. Well,

45:26

interesting topic. Her

45:28

case is likely going to go to

45:30

trial sometime this year. We will, of

45:32

course, keep our eyes on that

45:34

and update everyone as things develop.

45:36

But in the meantime, that is our show, Anjanette.

45:38

Thank you again so much for coming on this

45:40

week. Where can people find out more about you?

45:44

Well, I'm on Twitter, at Anjanette5.

45:46

I'm on Instagram, at Anjanette.

45:49

And I host

45:52

Crime Fix. It's a daily crime show every

45:54

day on Law and Crime's YouTube channel.

45:56

So there you have it. And

45:58

I've checked it out. and I've been a

46:01

guest on it. You've been a guest. You're

46:03

a great guest. Thank you. It's a fabulous

46:05

show and everybody should definitely check it out.

46:07

You do a wonderful job. In

46:10

the meantime, I'm your host, Josh Ritter. You

46:12

can find me on Instagram and Twitter at,

46:15

and yes, now even

46:17

TikTok at JoshuaRitterESQ or

46:20

as always at joshuaritter.com. You can find

46:22

our sidebar episodes wherever you get your

46:24

podcasts. And we wanna hear from you.

46:27

If you've got questions or comments, or

46:29

even future guests you'd like to

46:32

hear from, tweet us your comments

46:34

with the hashtag PCDScibar. And thank

46:36

you again for joining us at

46:38

the Two-Time Daily.