0:00

Gavin Newsome. Huh? Sad about Hair.

0:03

That Gavin Newsome. He's a good looking governor.

0:05

You got to give it to him. Shit decision coming up on this episode.

0:10

Gavin Newsom makes shit decisions and he's not the only one.

0:21

Hi Julia.

0:21

Hi,

0:21

you

0:21

guys

0:21

are

0:21

welcome

0:21

to

0:21

the

0:25

Dateline. I

0:27

mean, can you feel my love for this?

0:29

What has Taken us so long to do this?

0:32

No, I mean, I hate our same, but you know, I'm just going to keep doing this until they reach out to us.

0:42

Got it. Tell you like EV number one, that every time we do a Dateline, I'm like, how do we not know this story?

0:47

Right. I know. I know. And everyone is Trash

0:50

everywhere. Yeah. My favorite thing about all these people is how much Keith Morrison hates them.

0:54

And he just lets us know.

0:55

And I just love it. I'm just like, cause it's nice to know he's with us.

0:59

Exactly. You know, just telling the story.

1:01

He's like a lot of winks too. I know this asshole, You

1:05

know, the network brass. Doesn't give him any shit.

1:07

They're like, whatever. You know what I mean? He's Because

1:10

he's such a tall drink of water and he knows his shit.

1:12

He writes his own copy. He wrote like, just let him do It.

1:15

7,000 years old, come here. Let us have Keith Take,

1:19

keep away from us too. I can't do You

1:21

guys, before we get to the episode, proper just reminder, join us at the Patriot on over like two hundred and thirty, two forty two fifty full ad free bonus episodes to download a video.

1:29

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1:41

Yeah. All those long form series. Like the old school ones we did like making a murderer.

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3:54

All right, girl. What are we talking about today?

3:56

What's the date? Well, we're talking about actually my least favorite night of the year.

4:00

Title of it is the night of the summer solstice.

4:03

I made this. No, it took me a minute to get there.

4:05

When like the third time they're like the longest night of the year.

4:08

Longest day of the year. Yes. And I was like, God damn it.

4:10

Julian must hate the summer. So, Well,

4:13

my birthday is the winter solstice, which is the longest night of the year, which is if I could pick my birthday, obviously that would be it.

4:18

But during the summertime I say to Mike, like around the solstice, I'm like, I can't like, why is it still light out at eight?

4:23

At least I can't.

4:26

I'm going to bed at 8 15, 8 o'clock eight, 15 every night, eat the sun.

4:29

I'm like a fucking vampire.

4:31

I said it was eight 11. I remember it because I looked out my window and I was like, I know, tell me you got those.

4:38

We do have blackout shades, but you guys in is like the sun blaring through the shades.

4:41

But the trade-off is that in the winter, in New York, it's pitch black and for town, We

4:47

talk about it. It's so far away. It feels like, but also way to make the shit all about me.

4:51

There's a horrible, I know, I know.

4:53

I'm sorry. Well, we're starting on a chilly September morning, 2020.

4:56

And then I realized, oh my God, we're at a jail during COVID December, 2020.

5:01

Oh my God. Because all we know is that for whatever reason, whatever's about to happen was never supposed to happen.

5:07

And we don't get back to that until the very end.

5:10

You know what? They lied. Murders are never supposed to happen.

5:12

Honestly, we're really going to get down to it.

5:15

I'm Lester Holt tonight on Dateline, a famous crime novelists returns to an infamous case.

5:23

It had it's so much mystery involved, pentagrams painted on the wall.

5:27

What was this young man doing in that tunnel?

5:30

The Madison town is a pretty horrible place to die.

5:37

The murder happened on the summer solstice.

5:39

This whole occult story came out.

5:42

There's evidence of a called activities. Having taken place up there before He

5:48

told me that he had witnessed a murder and that he was helping the police with it.

5:55

Little by little, it started coming out. There

5:57

Had been some Lots of foot brutal and violent and chaotic.

6:01

They are vicious killers.

6:03

It

6:03

was

6:03

a

6:03

horrible

6:07

betrayal. So this episode, it tells the story of the murder of a guy named Ron baker in 1990.

6:11

So it happened a long time ago.

6:14

And so we meet this guy, Rick, I call him detective Rick.

6:17

He worked homicide for 20 years.

6:19

This was his case. They do that thing where they tell us how long he had the job.

6:22

And then they show us a picture of him smoking inside the office.

6:25

And I said, I'm going to try to get past it.

6:29

I'm going to try to rise above GP Inside.

6:31

He leans into satanic panic.

6:33

I'm not a fan.

6:33

The nineties, obviously it was animal sacrifice.

6:38

It's never the status of the woods.

6:41

And luckily they don't dwell on that for too long in this because it is ridiculous.

6:45

Well, we'll get there when we get there.

6:47

I really want detective Rick's lower third, always to be like former cop commas, one smoked us.

6:55

You know, he smoked inside all the, they All

6:57

did those really teeny, tiny ashtrays they used to have at McDonald's.

7:00

Oh my God, who cleans those Ashtray?

7:03

He also had them everywhere. Why would They

7:07

got the money? Airplanes, GP. They used to let them smoke Place

7:14

On fire. This is where they say a girl.

7:15

I'm sorry. I'm going to try to say this a few times as possible.

7:17

Just a few days after the summer solstice.

7:22

I don't. I prefer, And

7:25

you can bring anything out. Yeah.

7:26

So it was the log of say that your June 24th, 1990 and Rick, the detective who wants smoked inside tells us his supervisor's got a case for Rick and his partner, Frank, and it's a brutal fucking murder.

7:39

It's multiple stab wounds. The throat was slit.

7:41

They say it was a closeup murder. It was personal and bloody.

7:44

And whoever did this really did not want the guy to live.

7:48

It was a murder. All right, close up, personal bloody.

7:51

He looked to be in his early twenties, but he had no ID.

7:55

So they called him John DOE 1 35 Las 135th unidentified victim of the year Robin's

8:05

found and what they call the Manson tunnel.

8:07

It was like this creepy, spooky tunnel.

8:09

That of course there are like lots of a cult activity down there.

8:12

Meanwhile, we see the graffiti now and it's like, just like regular gangs or like tags or artists or whatever.

8:18

Yeah. And they say that this poor guy was found by a hikers.

8:21

And I said, why aren't you hiking?

8:23

And why are you hiking in an abandoned fucking tunnel?

8:26

Like train tunnel, Like

8:28

that. Shit's creepy and cool. But also like they're not hikers.

8:31

They're just people who just stumbled upon this.

8:33

If you're hiking, you're far away from the right Mean,

8:37

if you're walking to your friend's house through the woods, it's still called the hiking.

8:40

Yeah. I was going to say, look, I'm no expert.

8:42

Like they need to be reassured that I'm no expert on, Look,

8:46

I'm not saying you deserve to find a body. If you go on a hike, but like not far from it.

8:51

And even this is one of our first, like just phenomenal Keith lines where they're talking about, you know, the Manson tunnel because Charles Manson lived in New York once or looked at it for two seconds in the sixties, such bullshit, but with the occult and Keith's like, whatever, it was catnip for me to tell me, meet this guy, Michael J Connolly.

9:08

And Keith is a fan of his, because he's like Really

9:14

wants us to know who this guy is. The trailer for this episode, I was like world famous crime, novelist recaps.

9:19

And I'm like, who the fuck is Michael Collins?

9:21

Sure. He's a lovely As a fan, which I look, if I was Keith and like, I want him in that.

9:27

No, I'm sure it's nothing too. But like they make such a big deal out of the fact that he's a part of this episode, he's in it for five seconds.

9:33

The trailer makes it seem like he wrote a book that was the case or something like that anyway, back to the actual case.

9:38

So this is like how it all happens.

9:40

Right? This is how it unfolds that like the parents get a call like in the middle of the night, it was a strange.

9:46

And then you said, we have your son, unless you give us a hundred thousand dollars by five o'clock tomorrow he will die.

9:55

And like the dad doesn't believe.

9:57

So the dad calls Ron's apartment.

9:58

He was at UCLA. And so Ron wasn't home, his roommate answered.

10:02

And he's like, okay, well I guess just like, let me know if you hear from my son again, I feel like it's silly to say, but the nineties, like when we talk about the sixties and seventies, it's so obvious that there weren't cell phones and stuff, but for the nineties, so the dad was like, okay, well, no one could call him on the phone.

10:16

I guess we'll just wait. It seems so ridiculous to get a phone call.

10:19

Like, we'll kill it. Like, all right. Idiot To

10:22

me. Like, I, I, it doesn't take much to set me off.

10:24

I think, as we all know, but like, if I got a call about like, I would have taken the call more seriously, I know, You

10:30

know what I mean? Yeah. It's just like, so I guess they, what do they do?

10:33

They just panicked. Cause you know that you call the cops and they're like, they've only been gone for 10 minutes.

10:36

Like that doesn't count yet.

10:37

You shouldn't be panicking.

10:39

And they're like, thanks dummies. So the next morning, no one has seen Ron and the same scary person calls again.

10:44

And this is when Ron's dad is like, all right, cops, you gotta pay attention.

10:47

Like I'm calling you now and let's do this.

10:49

So we meet Ron's older sister Patty, and she like flies over to her parents' house.

10:53

When she gets the news, they put a wire like on the phone, but the scary, bad guys never called back.

10:57

And then like the cops get a picture of Ron and they take it down to the corner just to see if there's any chance that it like his picture matches any of the Poppies

11:06

did have a John DOE 10 hours before this Happened.

11:09

Yeah. And the coroner was like, oh shit.

11:11

Yeah. That's that guy. Right. So Ron is John DOE.

11:15

He was, he was in the tunnel. And just for clarity, like whoever was making these phone calls knew that he was already dead 100%.

11:21

You know what I mean? Like just to, just to tie up that loose, If

11:24

you haven't watched this classic Dateline, When

11:27

this thing first happened, we were just a few years past Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, who was involved in pentagrams and things like that.

11:36

And he had struck a couple of times in the valley and just how that grip the town in fear.

11:42

There's a little bit of, here we go again.

11:46

And this happened, Richard Ramirez had just terrorized LA.

11:49

We hear about that bitch again. And then Ron was wearing two necklaces.

11:53

He was wearing a pentagram and then like a cross with a Jesus fish, two totally different ideologies, Even

11:58

ideologies. But again, children going back to the nineties, this was kind of a thing back then people wore shit like this.

12:04

People like there was a lot of stuff going on with the Wicker taro tarot card.

12:08

It was a big thing in the nineties. And everyone's like, Ooh, the solstice.

12:11

And could this mean something?

12:12

And satanic panic is alive and well in this episode, but Yes,

12:15

because normally we'd be like, well, that's the garbage nonsense, but well, hold on just one second.

12:19

Cause Ron was a member of a club.

12:21

He was going to say cult, I'm walking up.

12:24

Don't you know, me, Ron baker was a part of a group called the mystic circle.

12:29

And There's some lovely because I, I can't believe that my lesbian mother, wasn't the president of this club By

12:36

the one teaching you about tarot cards in this scenario, you up on the Cape with lesbians, city kids, all the shit, come on.

12:45

And then we just get like a clip of a reporter from, from back then.

12:49

And it's like, the question is, did the occult lead to his death?

12:51

And to myself alone in my apartment, I went in there.

12:57

Why Ron baker of all people, he was a compassionate kind church going Methodist, not an enemy in the world.

13:09

My brother, he was a really positive person, a real gentle soul.

13:13

He was very smart.

13:15

He was majoring in astrophysics at UCLA.

13:19

We learned from Keith, like, why was Ron killed?

13:21

He was a compassionate kind church going Methodists, not An

13:24

enemy in the world. Super positive Going

13:28

methadone, Because it's like, that becomes important here that he's like studying astrophysics.

13:33

He goes to church as a Methodist.

13:35

And he's just like, the point is he's intellectually curious about, okay, Good

13:39

question. And also intellectually curious what the fuck is astrophysics?

13:42

What Helps

13:44

planes happen?

13:45

We

13:45

love

13:45

the

13:49

app.

13:49

It's

13:49

just

13:49

like

13:49

science

13:49

and

13:52

shit. It's like, it makes the world go round.

13:54

Literally problematic Neil deGrasse, Tyson. That's what he is.

13:56

Right. I can't Keep track of who's problematic. God damn it.

13:59

But science, how is that? All right, I'll go get, I'll go there.

14:01

But

14:01

so

14:01

this,

14:01

this

14:01

mystic

14:01

circle

14:01

thing,

14:01

we

14:01

meet

14:01

this

14:01

woman,

14:01

Christine,

14:08

He says Methodist or not, Ron joined a club called the mystic circle.

14:11

Why is Keith obsessed with him being a Methodist? Because

14:13

Keith knows that he's talking to a whole bunch of dummies because we got face-to-face action with Keith later to put it all in perspective.

14:20

So he's like, he wants people to like give a shit about Ron.

14:25

Like, oh, he's not a witch. Like, don't worry about it.

14:27

Like you should care.

14:29

Anyway, you don't have to be a mother to like care about kids.

14:32

You don't have to have a sister to care about a woman or a daughter to care about.

14:35

It was just like, fuck Introduces

14:37

us to Ron's friend, Christine Reyna.

14:39

And apparently she was like a member of this club with him.

14:42

But then she became like a real Wiccan, like which Meet

14:45

and hear lectures and talks from people that practiced a variety of different traditions or alternative religion.

14:53

We've had people come in who studied WCA.

14:56

I think as a physicist, there was something appealing about wicked being a nature, religion, because what do physicists study?

15:07

They study energy and they study for Yeah.

15:10

And so she's like, let me tell you something.

15:12

Astrophysics is all about like science and calculations and stuff.

15:16

And the wicked religion is all about nature and earth.

15:18

It's like this peaceful thing you can believe in.

15:21

It's all about like, let's give a shit about the solstice and not kill anyone for it.

15:25

Like all the substances you can't just Pick. I respect.

15:27

I'm allowed to have a favorite.

15:30

Just

15:30

like

15:33

fires. My favorite element. Come on. That makes sense.

15:35

So put a pin in the WCA ness.

15:37

We'll come back to her. So we're learning more about Ron's roommates.

15:41

And he shared an apartment with two guys, Nathan and Duncan, and the detectives go to talk to them because they're like, girl, where's your roommate.

15:47

And we learned that they were all really good friends, Dunkin and Ron were like, they've been friends for a really long time.

15:52

Dunkin was like the really outgoing one. And Ronald was a little bit more quiet, but Nathan and Dunkin their story is that like, yeah, he had a wicked meeting to go to at UCLA that night we dropped them off and we never saw them again.

16:03

And so The cops look in Ron's room and they find like all the shit that's in my room all the way, all the shit that I have, I have it highlighted.

16:12

I was like, I have all the shit in my room There.

16:15

It was an altar candles, the pentagram, all the WIC stuff.

16:23

They're large knives that supposedly were used in their ritual.

16:27

We was certainly not ruling out the possibility that baker step was COVID related.

16:33

And now the cops are like, this is a sacrificing animals in the tunnel.

16:38

And LA like, no, they're not.

16:40

And this is where we get, keep talking to us directly.

16:43

And he basically is like children got around panic.

16:46

Panic was a thing. And he doesn't, he calls it a myth.

16:48

I wish he would say like that. It's never like I'm Keith Morrison.

16:51

I know I have the authority on this.

16:53

It's never the sameness in the woods.

16:54

Like I promised you would never have been that he doesn't.

16:58

He just, I just wish he would be more direct Keith.

16:59

That's my one note so far. Okay.

17:01

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18:53

So the media goes wild with this like satanic panic narrative.

18:56

And like, you know, like this was what your friend Damien got caught off.

18:59

You know what I mean? Like this is like, this is a known thing.

19:01

The media fucking loves this shit. They go bananas.

19:03

And like the detectives are saying, like, we knew the media was going crazy, but we kind of put the satanic panic thing to bed.

19:09

And I was like, thank God. I cannot do 90 minutes of this.

19:11

I only spoke to Christine.

19:13

One of the cops is like, yeah, we spoke to a WCA.

19:17

What

19:17

do

19:17

I

19:19

call? She's a wicked or she's a woman or Christina, Frankie get Together

19:23

the wicked witch of the west, the WCA, What

19:27

do we call her? Put us up. What are we allowed?

19:29

She's gonna put a spell on me.

19:31

Keith says, As far as suspects, there were none except perhaps the alcohol you'd showed up at the autopsy.

19:39

Who's a lot of It

19:41

to which I said, can I

19:45

feel it?

19:47

Please leave her out of this.

19:50

She was like in rare form because she, because Ron never drank.

19:53

And he had like a super high blood alcohol And

19:55

we never get back to that. We never get any, his blood alcohol level was 0.2, one, but he didn't drink to which I said, well, Hey, you should have drank more, but be a like, why did he, how did he get so fucking here?

20:06

I don't know. And that's never, and we hear a lot about what happened.

20:09

Never mentioned. That's odd.

20:11

I think it was like the thing that I feared would happen to me when I went to high school and I was convinced they were going to inject with cocaine.

20:16

I hope not. Cause that makes it this even like sad or anxious about it, maybe he'd really did drink, but he did like told his Methodist church.

20:23

He didn't Right? Yep. I mean was like a kid in college.

20:27

Yeah. What we're talking about them. Can we just go into Ron's hair for five seconds?

20:30

Ron? How's this enormous head of hair.

20:32

It's like, he's just Like, he's a cool kid.

20:34

He is, I would, I loved him.

20:36

We would have been best for Remember.

20:38

And this is a robbery where the guys, like they were the hippies who were going to chess.

20:41

That's sort of how Ron was.

20:43

He was really smart, but he also like wanted to be out in nature and learn about different religions at different people and cultures that he had this like cool head of hair to go with them.

20:50

Like Quiet, cute straight guy.

20:53

My best friend. Like I would've Loved

20:55

him. He was a good Dude, but this is important later too.

20:57

We learned that Ron fought his killer that like there wasn't forensic evidence, like DNA.

21:02

Wasn't really a thing in 1990. But they were able to see that he had blood under his fingernails, like his attackers blood under his fingernails.

21:09

And that person's blood type was AB positive and only 4% of the population is AB positive.

21:15

So yeah, we'll be right Back. If we ever can get a suspect, it'll be easier to narrow it down.

21:20

Right? Well, speaking of suspects, the cops are talking to the roommates and they really are curious about, He

21:26

told us that he and Nathan went to Chatsworth park near to the tunnel to look for baker.

21:32

Why would anybody go look for their friend at Chatsworth park, near the tunnel?

21:38

If he was kidnapped Anyway,

21:41

Dunkin kept talking, offering information, which might be true or not.

21:50

Who was Ron's friend from back in the day. They've known each other forever.

21:52

They're like the odd couple, But they're like best friends.

21:54

Like it doesn't make any sense that this guy would have done This.

21:56

And then he fails a polygraph, which we know is bullshit, but it makes the cops focus on Dunkin a little bit.

22:01

And they say he didn't just fail it. He like failed it spectacular.

22:05

He's like, woo.

22:05

So tell me more about that.

22:08

There is no motive where it's like, Dunkin looks suspicious, but why?

22:13

Like what does it there best?

22:14

We learn a little bit about Dunkin here that he was really close, not just with Ron, but his whole family go over there all the time.

22:21

Super nice and fun and easygoing.

22:23

He was an exaggerator. He was constantly telling stories.

22:26

People would be like, all right, whatever. He always wants to be the center of it.

22:30

Like the time I told everybody that I made pancakes for Val Kilmer and he had to come into the kitchen at the hotel to thank me personally.

22:34

Cause they were that good. I let that happen.

22:36

I know I take that to my grave.

22:38

Then it happened when he's so close with Ron's family that after Ron's murder, Dunkin actually asked Ron's parents, can I keep some stuff here?

22:46

Like my store, some paperwork, Just

22:48

like the Phillies grieving.

22:50

Could you not bother them with your sheds?

22:53

I have a chore to do. Give them someone to look after God damn.

22:56

You should not like Dunkin listener.

22:58

I don't want to tell you what to do, but don't.

23:01

And he's also telling Duncan's parents that like, he thinks that the police are following him.

23:05

Like he failed the polygraph test. He's feeling very like under the microscope.

23:08

And so he thinks people are following him.

23:11

That's suddenly like a month after Ron's murder.

23:14

There's this phone call Cryptic

23:16

phone call late at night, a panic stricken message from another call.

23:22

It didn't say the voice on the line sounded familiar Calling.

23:33

And I got to say, Dateline did not do a good job of letting us know who the phone call went to.

23:37

We Just have audio of this.

23:40

They're not clear about where this call went. But my understanding is that it was like an answering machine message and we hear it and we hear it.

23:46

And like, basically this kid Duncan is saying he's being held against his will in some warehouse in north Hollywood.

23:52

And then we hear like south of him getting beaten up and the phone goes dead.

23:57

It's like a coffee can, was knocked over or something.

23:59

It's just like, Whereas

24:02

you guys will know if I ever like fake, I've been kidnapped call.

24:06

Cause I'll be like, I would be real over the top about it, I think.

24:12

But That's also, if you actually get kidnapped too, That's

24:14

true. So how are you going to know? Here's how you know I'm

24:20

lost in the outside. I'd be like, oh my God, oh my God, that hazard talking about the outside, I've been drinking so much water today.

24:31

I don't Even know where I am never do that under any circumstance.

24:34

Well, now We know, So

24:38

his disappearance makes the news.

24:39

The cops are like, yeah, we never believed it Again

24:43

because it's so like, oh ouch.

24:46

They

24:46

tracked

24:46

down

24:46

the

24:46

phone

24:49

number. Somehow they call it it's from a payphone in Vegas airport or something it's done.

24:55

This Is bullshit gets more and more and more ridiculous investigators.

24:59

The phone number Duncan used to make that panicky phone call reporting his own kidnapping.

25:03

It was a random stranger, not Duncan who answered a payphone and not in a warehouse in north Hollywood, but in a crowded Airport.

25:15

I think the motive for him making that phone call was if he's kidnapped, then they'll stop looking for them.

25:23

The thing is Dateline does these insane stories and they tell them to us like they're normal.

25:27

Cause I'm like, wait a minute. It's a payphone in Vegas, but Duncan's in trouble.

25:30

Like why is everybody looking for him? And then, then we were just moving on.

25:33

And the assumption is no, like Dunkin wasn't kidnapped.

25:35

He's on the Lam now. And I was like, okay, I guess, I guess I'm just going with the, But

25:40

Doug, if you don't want anyone to pay attention to you, don't fake your kidnapping.

25:42

Just leave.

25:44

I shut up and leave. No, I mean honest to God, Because

25:47

now everyone's like what happened? Whoa, Dunkin left that phone.

25:50

Just go away, just shut up and go away.

25:52

But that's not how Duncan rolls. Also.

25:54

Remember Duncan was like keeping paperwork at the parents of the friend who was, It

26:00

was murdered. And the family, by the way, now feels like maybe Duncan had something to do with this.

26:03

So now they're suspicious. Right? So the dad's Like,

26:05

I'm going to look through these pieces of paper. Sure.

26:07

But it took him like a couple of weeks to do that.

26:10

I was like, guys, could we move this timeline along?

26:12

I

26:12

know,

26:12

but

26:12

I'm

26:12

just

26:12

saying,

26:12

I

26:12

want

26:12

to

26:12

fucking

26:12

find

26:12

out

26:12

what

26:19

happened. Cause I still don't think Dunkin did it.

26:22

Here's how about this? Okay. There's a checklist in the, in the, the, I keep saying paperwork.

26:26

I can't. Why can't I think of the box.

26:29

The

26:29

list

26:29

says

26:29

it's

26:29

called

26:29

things

26:29

to

26:33

do. Let me, I'm going to read it to you.

26:35

Set up new ID cell car in parentheses, ASAP set up work.

26:42

Find out McCarty's parents' number.

26:45

Check with the Marine Corps.

26:47

Smooth things at EA.

26:50

Get new car through question.

26:53

Do

26:53

you

26:53

still

26:53

think

26:53

Dunkin's

26:53

totally

26:58

innocent? I got to tell you like Duncan pulls it off.

27:01

Like Dunkin vanishes.

27:02

You guys. He just manages.

27:04

I mean, I make enough podcasts about true crimes and missing people to tell ya that's not easy to do.

27:11

No, but, and he had it all laid out.

27:13

How do you just get a new idea?

27:15

You make Alyssa says get new identity and then you do Yes.

27:19

Sell car ASAP.

27:20

I like that.

27:22

You would think that would be the top thing on the list. If it was so urgent And

27:26

then it's like, Leave

27:28

the car girl, what's the car worth? $800.

27:30

Just go, just go bad at this.

27:33

Except he gets away with it, which is bananas.

27:36

All of them came Christmas the new year and runs 22nd birthday.

27:42

Another

27:42

summer

27:42

solstice

27:42

came

27:42

to

27:42

the

27:42

anniversary

27:42

of

27:42

Ron's

27:42

death

27:42

the

27:42

longest

27:42

day,

27:42

following

27:42

the

27:42

longest

27:42

year

27:42

for

27:42

the

27:53

bakers.

27:58

So there's no news on Dunkin. They go back to Nathan.

28:00

Nathan's the other roommate, Nathan is sticking to the story.

28:03

He dropped him off at the bus stop. Never saw him again.

28:06

The cops are like, we're convinced Dunkin is involved, but we just like, we don't have eyes hound.

28:10

And it keeps like you just get your mitts on him to talk to him.

28:14

You guys, it is. I want everyone to pull over, pull over This

28:22

Who, how this person does not have a podcast on the obsessed network I don't under.

28:25

And she lives at a hundred in their own way, but in such a way that, and you'll get it from the way he speaks.

28:35

Autumn. Thank you Keith, for bringing it to a time In 1991.

28:40

We're in Boston, Massachusetts. Yeah.

28:41

Three young men walked into the downtown federal building and encountered as seasoned and very particular passport agent who just happened to have the same first name as the elusive.

28:54

Mr. Martinez, The

28:56

name is Duncan Haywood Maitland.

29:00

We meet this guy who tells us his name and it's a little confusing.

29:03

So this is another Dunkin, not Dunkin the roommate, but it was the name is Dunkin Haywood, Maitland.

29:11

Marion coats were Like,

29:14

oh, is there another Dunkin Maitland you need to adopt?

29:18

I hate this guy is so intense.

29:20

You guys. And what happens is three men walked into the downtown federal building.

29:25

That's the building. I know. Well, guy's a passport agents.

29:27

Exactly. And so like these three young men encounter this guy, Duncan, Haywood, mailer, And

29:33

one of them like, I need a passport and I need it now because my flight to Paris is in like 45 minutes.

29:37

I

29:37

mean,

29:37

we're

29:37

here

29:37

because

29:37

of

29:37

Dunkin

29:43

Dummies Walk into this building at this time with Duncan was working.

29:47

And also if this guy Dunkin, Maitland, wasn't exactly the kind of person he is.

29:51

This segment would have been five minutes. She is phenomenal.

29:53

I

29:53

mean,

29:53

until

29:53

he's

29:53

not

29:57

What happens is one of the kids says to this Dunkin Maitland, I need my password.

30:00

Here's my identification. And he hands the guy, a school transcript with no photo.

30:04

Now, granted, this is pre nine 11.

30:07

And like, those of us who were alive and adults before that, like w I do remember that things were much easier.

30:12

Like you could get away with shit. Like if you like showed up to the airport without an ID that didn't carry Well,

30:17

you never met Dunkin Maitland because mainly he's like, are you kidding me?

30:21

You need like a valid ID and passport photos.

30:24

You can't just hand me a piece of paper. And this guy's like, no, my name is Jonathan Wayne Miller.

30:28

Here's my transcript from eighth grade. What's the problem.

30:31

And so the three men are like, all right, we'll go.

30:33

And we'll get like the documents you need.

30:35

They come back with just the pictures and no idea.

30:38

And Dunkin Maitland is like, well, girl, where's your valid ID.

30:41

And the one who's going to Paris tonight, it's like, they're right here.

30:43

Like these two are going to vouch for me.

30:46

They are not good enough.

30:46

You need a blood relative.

30:50

We need either your mother or your brother to come enter this agency today.

31:00

Was it panic? Maitland was seeing and young billers.

31:03

Huh? No. This used to be a thing.

31:04

This used to be a real thing.

31:07

Yeah. Maitland's like, oh, those bumps aren't good enough.

31:09

And I'm sitting here like, yeah, no shit.

31:10

We

31:10

need

31:10

a

31:10

blood

31:10

relative

31:10

or

31:14

mother. And I'm like, wait, you need a, I

31:16

know there was a type of dentist also like, well, how are you going to prove that they're a bread row, a blood relative.

31:21

If you don't have a fucking photo ID, Never

31:23

heard of this in my life, I can just bring my mom Pre

31:27

nine. 11 was a whole different fucking world. You got, I

31:30

never really, I mean, Maitland has a lot of things that blow me away, but this was one of them where I was like, wait, what?

31:36

But then the guy who's got to get to Paris on the six 30.

31:39

He's like, but girl, I was very badly abused in my life.

31:43

And he's like, that's great, but it doesn't help you with, Can

31:47

I mention, I only have an eighth grade education and I had to run away from home.

31:50

Maitland is not having any, He's just picked a fight with the wrong guy.

31:53

I know. Since Dunkin Haywood, Can

31:57

you imagine if like teller number eight instead of teller, number nine had been open the whole different, Not

32:02

here to fuck around. I feel like he has his own office.

32:04

I don't think you should. Cause no one else could do it.

32:06

Right? He can't share the job. It's him or nobody else.

32:10

So this kid, John Wayne Miller is like, well, here's my social security card.

32:14

And Maitland is like, oh, calling major bull shit.

32:17

And he's like, I could tell that that social security was brand new, which means it's a new identity.

32:21

And Keith is like, so it doesn't mean it's fraudulent.

32:23

It just means it's a new identity. He goes, it means both cases, right?

32:27

It's basically like kicks these clowns out of his office and goes to a hundred because he immediately calls the FBI.

32:32

Like the door shut.

32:34

Nothing sat with Dunkin.

32:38

Maitland. Maitland is a post nine 11 man living in a pre nine 11 world.

32:42

I feel like when nine 11

32:44

happened, they went to Doug Maitland and they were like, what do we do to make this ever happen?

32:48

Again, girl, post at the file cabinet was like, well, this big book that he needs like two hands.

32:55

So I thought you'd never ask Maitland Called

32:59

the school, listed on the transcript.

33:02

And I talked to a guidance counselor there and I said, it gives English one and English two.

33:11

He said that's freshmen and sophomore English.

33:15

And I said, well, what grades?

33:17

He said nine and 10.

33:20

And I'm saying to myself, this fellow quit school, eighth grade.

33:25

That doesn't make sense.

33:28

But so You like this guy Maitland had the next day off because the next day Maitland is at home and just decides he's going to do some sleuthing.

33:36

He's like, you know what? That kid left a real bad taste in my mouth.

33:39

I'm going to get to the bottom of this bullshit.

33:41

He calls the school cause nothing on the transcript.

33:42

Makes sense. Remember This kid, John Wayne Miller, the first document that he had given to Maitland was a school transcript.

33:47

It was a school in Massachusetts and Maitland calls.

33:50

The school mainland is going down a checklist.

33:52

He was like looking at the classes. This kid said he took and the school is confirming.

33:55

We do offer those classes. They are ninth and 10th grade level classes.

33:58

And Maitland's like, well, that kid said he only had an eighth grade education.

34:01

Why is that kid giving more information that he needs?

34:04

Right? And then with the new social security card and also mainland like his gut is just like yelling at him.

34:09

You watch a lot of Colombo.

34:11

So like at the end of the day, Maitland knows this.

34:13

Kid's like identity is made up. He's put it on the radar of the FBI and now put a pin on that.

34:18

We'll come back because now there's a warrant Out for this guy.

34:20

Exactly. The FBI, the FBI put you guys don't do that.

34:23

And while we're at it, while we have you pulled over, don't fuck with the us mail.

34:27

Remember that? I'll remember, you guys write the wrong address on a postcard.

34:31

You're going to jail for 20 years.

34:32

Read someone else's postcard.

34:33

I'll never see you again.

34:35

And it's hard. And they're trying to trick you out with that one.

34:38

You're like, oh God, I'm so sorry.

34:41

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37:57

Yes. Always two months later after Maitland is like I got up this highway patrolman pulls over our enemy of the moment.

38:03

John Wayne Miller For sir took the driver's ID, ran the name.

38:07

Jonathan Wayne Miller wanted by the FBI for faking a passport application.

38:14

Miller was arrested and booked into Utah jail.

38:19

But then back in Massachusetts, a cop goes to the last known address of this John Wayne Miller guy, because they're trying to track them down.

38:24

They don't know what's going on in Utah. It's like a whole mess.

38:26

So they knock on the door and this guy, Jim Miller answers.

38:30

Oh, these guys. All right. Well, if you, if you pull back into the highway, pull over again, we didn't tell you that.

38:34

Get Back and turn the car back on doing So

38:38

she runs a real tight ship. You guys, you wait until she tells you to get back on the roads, Morrison

38:45

thrilled. So they ask like, Hey, we're looking for John Wayne Miller.

38:48

And this guy, Jim is like, what do you want him for?

38:50

He's been dead for 21 years.

38:53

So this at this point goes one of two ways.

38:56

It's either that, that old scary story about the lady in the back of the car that disappeared, that they find the husband.

39:00

It's like, oh, she's been dead for 20 years. So either this guy's a ghost, which is a possibility, or it's a case of stolen fucking identity, Right?

39:09

In the most tragic way, because this, this poor guy, Jim Miller tells us a story.

39:13

His son, the real Jonathan Wayne Miller, That

39:16

was a real kid that really lived in existence At

39:19

two years old, a tragic accident happens and he dies.

39:23

And so this guy imagine being Jim Miller, opening the door to anyone He's

39:28

with us now sobbing telling Keith Morrison the fucking story, right?

39:32

It brings it up at your, the last thing you were expecting is to hear that name 21 years later.

39:36

And it's like, can you just let this little baby rest, like, don't use this fucking name, don't use this identity.

39:39

And it's just like, it's so disgusting.

39:42

Boiler. It's Dunkin everyone. Right?

39:44

So, you know, eventually when we're back with Dunkin Maitland, the passport guy, he tells us what Duncan, the roommate who probably killed Ron.

39:52

The whole reason we're here in the first place.

39:54

What that Duncan probably did was he like back in the nineties and before nine 11, you could steal an identity kind of easily.

40:00

And he's like, he was probably wandering a cemetery.

40:02

You're looking for a person who died around the time that you were born.

40:07

So the ages would match, which means you have to steal the identity of a fucking baby.

40:12

Right? And that's what that kid Dunkin did Back

40:15

then. It was that easy to fake an identity.

40:17

Unless you ran into someone as exacting, as Maitland who called the Massachusetts vital records department and asked to contact there to do a search for Miller's official death certificate, The

40:30

federal building, like where they actually keep all this shit on file.

40:33

There's a book of death certificates.

40:35

And the page for the baby, John Lee Miller had been ripped out, which means Dunkin figured all of this out.

40:42

He figured out the identity of a dead baby to steal then went and stole the death certificate.

40:46

And they say that like when there's no death certificate, that kind of like legally brings the person back to life, which means like that's how Duncan was able to get the social security card.

40:56

He can actually assume this. Person's like, it is a level of like fucking evil.

41:00

And also the fact that Duncan this idiot was able to pull it off is mindblowing.

41:06

And this is a perfect example of what you're saying, where Dateline just presents it to us.

41:09

Like, here's the thing, Maitland.

41:12

The passport guy tells this to Keith and he's like, I went down there, got the record, turn to the page.

41:17

And he goes, Hey, guess what?

41:18

And it's a pause. He's like waiting for Keith to react.

41:20

I by Keith, just leave them hanging.

41:22

And it's like set. He goes, the page was missing.

41:24

And Keith goes, really?

41:25

I

41:25

didn't

41:25

fucking

41:29

walk. He's like, wait, there's a name for this. Like, I don't care if he's acting, he's a legend.

41:32

But I feel like, wait, that's a thing that people do.

41:36

It's infant identity. And I've

41:38

totally heard of this.

41:40

D I infant death identity.

41:45

Why would you call it That? Because it's a way to assume a brand new identity without ever bumping into the person you've seen this before.

41:58

Absolutely. And it's a good way to hide.

42:04

Couldn't get away with this today. I'm hoping all these fucking death certificates are fucking digitized and a dirt bag like Duncan.

42:09

Can't just walk into a federal building and steal it and then bada Bing, bada boom, the kids alive again.

42:14

Right? So this quote, Jonathan Miller guy is taken into custody.

42:17

He's refusing to tell the judge who he is, which is a Ted Bundy move.

42:20

If I'm not. And that's like all that, the cops knows that they don't know who he is.

42:24

Cause the cops now know that this is a stolen identity about like the poor dead boy from Massachusetts Judges,

42:29

like fine that sit in prison until you tell us, just says that like, okay, So

42:44

Dunkin is now in prison.

42:46

And like he's in a lot of trouble.

42:47

And so he gets a lawyer and the lawyer calls our original detective team, Rick and Frank.

42:52

And he says to them, I just thought without notes girl, you asked me Listeners

42:56

to, he asked me Jonathan Wayne Miller, same Talk a mile a minute.

43:03

And they did this with the same John, But

43:07

Rick and Frank, I got Rick and Frick. I have no problem.

43:11

I got it. I got it.

43:11

While we have it working.

43:13

Franco She's

43:16

listening. Let's turn. We're rolling. We're rolling.

43:17

So the lawyer calls Rick and Frank and was like, well, listen, I know my client's in jail.

43:22

I know he's a total fucking dirt bag. But how about this?

43:24

What if he were to tell you about what happened to his roommate?

43:28

Ron, remember the dead guy. That's why we're here in the first place.

43:30

If he gives you all of that information, are you willing to cut a deal?

43:34

It's something called a limited immunity. And I'm like, how is that?

43:36

Not an oxymoron. I know exhibited immunity.

43:39

Anyway, the deal is called king for a day to which Keith says fancy agreed Because

43:45

the whole idea of king for a day is that this person can tell the cops everything and they can't use any of it against them.

43:52

And it's a deal that the cops only making a case where they have no evidence and they're trying to get closure for the family.

43:57

He was in charge that day. Our hands were tied as far as what couldn't be used, but it could give us information to move forward, to try to further the case.

44:08

But there was a catch, a big one.

44:10

If Duncan ever let anything slip to anyone else, or if detectives uncovered any additional evidence, they could charge him with murder.

44:20

But on this day, right here, he had one free day pass to reveal all, no charge.

44:30

This guy's going to admit to the murder and we're going to know what happened.

44:33

And we can tell the Family, but we can't ever use this against him except right.

44:36

There's some fine print here. And the fine print is either Duncan runs his mouth and tells me Somebody

44:41

else. The cops were like, you can't say a word about what you've done to anybody, Right?

44:45

Or the second thing is if the cops find out there's more to the story and he didn't tell them, and they know that he knew like he was holding things back the deal's off, they can arrest him and charge him for murder.

44:54

Exactly. So he sits down and we hear the fucking tape of this interview.

44:58

And basically the story that Duncan tells Rick and Frank is that Nathan, the other roommate, and I lured Ron to this Manson tunnel, spooky tunnel.

45:07

And we were like walking in there.

45:10

We were going to be, girls were going to drink beer and Nathan tripped and Ron astrophysicist fucking sweet ass.

45:17

Ron makes a joke. Nathan can't like handle the fact that he's getting laughed at and just stabs him today.

45:23

We hear a couple of versions of the story. None of them make a lot of sense to me What

45:27

we're getting out of this really the important thing is that Nathan did the murdering And

45:31

then Dunkin says that he had Nathan fled the crime scene.

45:33

And according to Duncan, Nathan was the one who told Dunkin to make that ransom call to the parents.

45:39

Some bullshit story that like Duncan's like, but I didn't want to do it.

45:43

But then I was afraid that Nathan would kill me too.

45:44

So then I did it.

45:47

The two of them go home, dump the murder weapon, clean up and go to a party.

45:50

So how scared were you?

45:52

And my other question is like, duck go where you actually, what would you have done if they had like given you the a hundred grants?

45:57

Right? So he's going to, yeah, they would've went to Vegas.

46:01

I don't know because, and now Duncan's like, you know, actually the more we're talking about it, it was all Nathan.

46:08

Now that I'm really saying it, I'm putting the pieces together.

46:10

I didn't do nothing. And it's Nathan, Nathan, Nathan, Nathan.

46:13

Yeah. And mitigated a lot of his involvement in this minimized everything he, he did at least for the most part with the, I didn't think it was really going to happen.

46:23

Why would you go to the extent to where him up there, if you didn't really think it was going to happen.

46:29

So two years go by and like Duncan literally tells that story, like basically admits to having a hand in the murder.

46:34

They let him go. They let him go. And he's been living in park city.

46:37

Utah looks like a beautiful city and you wouldn't love it there.

46:39

I feel like it's always freezing Mormons

46:41

to talk, to ask questions or to find a liquor store.

46:46

I bet.

46:49

You know, there's a lot to consider before making a major move like that.

46:52

I want to just like start drinking at three on a Sunday.

46:54

I don't want to be told I can't do that yet.

46:56

Yeah. Or go to an airport. And there's like, it's a dry airport.

46:59

No,

47:02

I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.

47:03

Travel down, Girl.

47:07

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And also men just say, So

48:48

Duncan is like living the good life in park city.

48:50

And they're like, well, we can't get Duncan.

48:52

We're going to go and look at Nathan again.

48:54

And like Dunkin said, he was the one who did it anyway.

48:56

Guess what girl? Nathan's in jail for armed robbery Robbery.

49:01

So the cops are like, all right, now that we have it, you're just sitting here.

49:04

You're not doing much today. Right? You're going to have a freeze free schedule, I think.

49:07

Can we chat with you? They just want to know like how true Duncan's story is.

49:11

So here's the thing. The detectives, Rick and Frank show up at Nathan's prison.

49:16

And he remembers them because he had been interviewed by them in the beginning.

49:20

So he was like, oh my God, my friends are here.

49:21

Hi girl. Like, what are you thinking?

49:25

So the cops are just like, sort of feeling them out.

49:27

They don't really get anything from Nathan, but they get his blood type.

49:30

We got a search warrant for Nathan blade locks, blood, and that blood came back AB positive blade locks, 4% of the population habit.

49:42

That was good. Quite good, but still not enough for a murder charge.

49:46

And if you remember, that was the blood type found under Ron's fingernails.

49:50

And only 4% of the population is AB positive.

49:53

Right. And they're like, that's great, but it's not enough. So the cops needs a place, Nathan, in the tunnel with the knife.

49:58

Sorry. That sounded like clue as I was saying it.

50:01

So they're like, all right, let's call him Duncan.

50:03

We hate them. But like, maybe he can help.

50:05

So what they do with, They say it's like more than willing, like what a woman to wear a wire Loves

50:09

every second off that switches. So I Know,

50:11

I know. And they have Dunkin call Nathan in prison and they record the phone call.

50:16

And it's like, you know, obviously Nathan does not know the college being recorded The

50:20

last time you were on the phone. What Is

50:22

so stupid? I know Casually,

50:27

I know your blood type out of it.

50:29

And now two years after this word or this guy you've never heard from again, it's like, Hey buddy, You

50:37

know what? When you try to pull this shit on me, when I'm a job, I'm falling for a GP.

50:40

I'm not following, I'll

50:42

be in the other prison right next year.

50:43

You know, they're keeping us apart.

50:45

Jesus Christ.

50:47

It was like old times as the tube carve up.

50:49

And then Duncan started spinning a story to get Nathan talking.

50:56

I just got in touch with my mom.

50:57

And she says, they've been over at her house, giving her like serious about my blood type.

51:05

Then without missing a beat Duncan cleverly got Nathan inside the tunnel and tied him to the struggle just before Ron baker was status To

51:15

death. Nathan totally fucking falls for it.

51:17

And like he gets Nathan to admit to being in the tunnel.

51:19

But Nathan gets spooked. He doesn't want to like get too detailed on what actually happened because he's like, go on the phone with you.

51:25

And who knows what these calls are recorded. Girl, they're always recorded.

51:28

Yeah. He goes, I don't think this line is secure. No prison lines by definition are not secure.

51:33

But by the end of the conversation, Nathan has invited his old friend Dunkin to come visit him in prison.

51:37

Nathan is so stupid.

51:40

There's a part of me. That's like, is he doing that thing where he, the guilt is taking over?

51:43

And he said, I just want to be caught for this because every decision leads to, I

51:47

mean, I doesn't seem like it because every time he gets the opportunity to acknowledge or admit he does not, I think he's just a fucking idiot.

51:54

Well, fair enough. I mean it also a murderer.

51:55

So we here, we have the audio of Dunkin talking to Nathan in prison Is

52:00

all too happy to throw out a wire and go visit his pal in prison.

52:04

They say that like Dunkin really, he thinks it's Hollywood stuff he's super into.

52:08

He loves it. And so eventually like this goes on and on, but don't get as like talking about the blood, right.

52:13

Because they know that the blood matches. And so Duncan's like, dude, you know, your blood might be all over the walls in that, in that tunnel.

52:19

I mean, should we be nervous? And Nathan's like, no, no, no way.

52:22

That's Ron's blood. My blood didn't get anywhere.

52:24

This just happened. And he sang stuff, but not enough for a conviction or to charge him.

52:29

But he is acknowledging that he was there and like responsible.

52:32

Like he says, like, it just happens.

52:33

Like, you know, like that's an it's a lot, but the cops want, they say they want more before indicting him.

52:40

So Nathan goes back to a cell.

52:41

Duncan goes back to Utah where he's studying film and living his best life.

52:46

The two year old Duncan Martinez once a big time murder suspect was now a big man on campus.

52:55

He went by the name doofus O'Reilly.

52:57

That's what he liked to tell his friends to call him do for so Riley, he was the center of attraction at a lot of events, Doofus

53:05

O'Reilly, which makes me crazy.

53:08

He's actual frat boy, You

53:12

like skip picture this guy. He just looks the part he's at Utah state university.

53:17

He's in the, Can

53:20

you imagine some drunk frappe way?

53:22

Introducing himself to me as do Riley, if you ever want me to leave a party, if I'm not wanted anywhere, have some of your asshole friends introduce themselves as doofus O'Reilly and I'd be like, that's my that's my stock.

53:37

I know it's up in bar, but I'm still going to leave.

53:39

Well, I'm taking like six, But

53:42

now I'm leaving goodbye. So Doofus

53:44

he's in a fraternity Chileans.

53:46

He

53:46

meets

53:46

a

53:49

girl. He meets a young woman named Melissa Bean.

53:51

You guys, Melissa is here Is

53:55

A complicated character. She's Easily

53:57

impressed Overdo this.

54:02

I got to tell you if I'm just going to say this, like without commenting on his appearance, if a guy like that was paying like serious attention to me too, I would probably be the Melissa Melissa at one point describes herself as a Volvo, like Doubles

54:16

over a laughter. But she charms him by describing herself as a Volvo.

54:20

I feel like Melissa and I might have a lot in common, but Melissa Easily

54:25

impressed by the she's like he had a tattoo.

54:27

You weren't leather jacket. And she's like, it was kinda like if guy fairy showed up to the party and I'm like, how dare you guy for your he's a lovely guy.

54:34

Thousands

54:34

of

54:34

dollars

54:34

for

54:34

restaurant

54:39

workers. He's ridiculous. No,

54:40

she also does that thing. I hate what you think he was a bad boy and not knock it off.

54:44

You guys, It wasn't a leather jacket does not a bad boy.

54:47

No. And also, Can we normalize hot nerds?

54:49

Can we please looking normalized hot nerds.

54:52

Goddammit. But Melissa like is super in love, but you guys, Melissa plays a major role in Or

54:58

role so that we're gonna, like, we're gonna veer away from Melissa.

55:00

We'll get back to her in a minute because now the cops want to talk to Duncan again.

55:04

They want him to call Nathan again.

55:05

And so we hear the call again.

55:08

Yeah. All I know is that I'm flipped and I don't know what to do.

55:12

And I don't know what I'm going to tell him if I go down.

55:14

I mean, what should I tell him?

55:17

Yeah. And Duncan

55:20

kept trying to get Nathan to say the words to take the blame directly for stabbing, wrong for cutting.

55:28

And so the stakes are higher now, according to Dunkin, like the cops are coming after me, you know, like what do I tell them?

55:33

What do I tell them? And Nathan's like, you tell them that you didn't do it.

55:35

And then you say, you don't know who did. It's very simple.

55:38

And I gotta say like, Duncan's original story was that I didn't do it.

55:41

Nathan did it. And it seems like that's true.

55:43

You know what I mean? Like it seems like Nathan really is the one who like did the actual murder.

55:48

I'm not saying that they didn't both lure him there.

55:50

And if they bolt lured him there to murder him, then they're both equally as culpable.

55:53

But it does seem like Nathan was like the knife guy.

55:57

Yeah. And then the cops finally got what they need because Dunkin is like, how can you act like this never happened, Nathan, like really trying to play the guilt card.

56:03

And Nathan goes, well, I have to do that to move on.

56:06

It happened. It was a mistake.

56:07

And Keith's like, everyone shut up.

56:11

We'll move on to where Nathan, like you're in jail girl.

56:14

Like this is going to be your life.

56:16

Yeah. Like he just doesn't like helps him sleep at night to think of it that way.

56:19

Oh my God. Apparently that's all they need.

56:22

They send Dunkin back to film school who, before he gets out of the car, it's like, it's a real shame I met under these circumstances.

56:27

I think it would have been soup school to hang out bros.

56:31

I feel like the way that we are told that story is the cops are being nicer.

56:34

Like he said, it'd be really fun to hang out with us.

56:36

I feel like when he really says it was like too bad, but then under these circumstances, it would have been real fun for you guys to hang out with me, With

56:41

me 100%. They didn't even slow.

56:44

They didn't even stop the car. They just slowed it, pushed them out of the door.

56:47

Oh my God. So we're back to Melissa Bean and you guys Keith.

56:51

Oh God. It's so good. Keith Morrison says if Martinez

56:55

was the charismatic pied Piper of his university of Utah fraternity Lewis had been was, well, let her describe it.

57:06

I was president of my sorority.

57:07

I was kind of nerdy and boring.

57:10

I mean, I drove a Volvo. I was basically a Volvo.

57:13

I was the Volvo in college.

57:16

Right.

57:18

Basically. She's like, I was exceptionally capable.

57:21

I feel like Melissa and I are a lot of light because I would probably also without meaning to describe myself as both exceptionally capable and a Volvo.

57:32

Right. But you'd be like leather shoe leather.

57:36

I know, I know Keith was so charmed by this.

57:39

I heard it all as the minute she said Volvo, he was doubled over, go watch it loved it.

57:44

Caught

57:44

us

57:44

off

57:46

guard. It was great, Melissa, Melissa, is that like, she was cool enough.

57:52

And I think like being super smart is really cool.

57:55

Like I don't really subscribe to that. But anyway, so Duncan wanted to impress her.

57:58

I kept wanting to impress Melissa and to do This

58:01

wrong road. It really takes the wrong.

58:03

You're Super smart, extremely capable girlfriend.

58:07

He

58:07

tells

58:07

her

58:07

this

58:07

story

58:07

about

58:07

helping

58:07

the

58:07

police

58:07

because

58:07

he

58:07

was

58:07

involved

58:07

in

58:07

a

58:12

murder. Yeah. And remember if you guys remember, I suppose Herself

58:16

over, cause she's a Volvo, do I have a story?

58:24

But if you remember, there are two caveats to his king for a day deal.

58:27

He's not allowed to talk about the murder ever to anybody.

58:29

Because if you think about it, like the reason for that caveat, it's like the cops know you're a murderer and you're just like allowed to roam free among us.

58:37

Right. This is a sticking point for me because I don't, this doesn't make much sense coming up because yeah.

58:41

But anyway, So I heard the story about him being involved in a murder and she's like, I tried not to tell anybody, but then I told my roommates, my brother, my cousins and university of lumps and DLIP Everyone,

58:54

Everyone. So kind of me sort of being big mouth about what Duncan said to me to a couple of guys went to my brother, went up the chain to the alumni of the fraternity, went to university police and then LAPD.

59:05

And he's being asked to leave us fraternity.

59:08

Duncan was like an exaggerator.

59:10

So she says, I just thought he was trying to make himself sound bigger than he actually was.

59:13

Like, he was involved in helping up the police with a murder.

59:16

He probably didn't say, and I was there.

59:18

Yeah. Again like Duncan, like w what are you people?

59:24

And then he's mad at Melissa because that got him kicked out of the frat.

59:28

Oh my God, you got priority. I know.

59:30

Remember Nathan's looking at life in jail.

59:32

And Dunkin gets kicked out of the frat and he's passed.

59:35

Cause he's at film school in Utah.

59:38

So the detectives go to see Nathan again because they, they got it, like nail this guy, they spend two minutes on niceties and they're like, so your best friend Duncan says you did it.

59:46

And he said it on tape. Do you want to hear it play Old?

59:49

Were it took like a lot to press the town, the old tape Recorder

59:52

on the table.

59:54

Totally, totally sorry, kids. Then Nathan's just like, and I'm caught by me.

59:57

There's nothing to say. When you have the tapes in front of you and then he just starts talking Canary.

1:00:02

It goes from, I didn't do it to, oh shit.

1:00:04

I got caught too. How many times did you stab him?

1:00:06

Nathan? And he goes twice. Twice.

1:00:08

Yeah. At least twice. And I'm like, okay, so now that we've here again, here's, what's weird to me.

1:00:12

Don't get as just like still in Utah.

1:00:14

He, he's not in a frat, but you're still walking among us.

1:00:17

But part of the deal was that he wasn't supposed to talk.

1:00:19

And he told Melissa and she told, Right.

1:00:21

And I think as we're going to learn, the cops are just biding their time.

1:00:24

Because what happens next? You guys, you guys, when you commit a murder and you get away with it, you're a bad person.

1:00:30

But if you get away with it and then you tell the cops and you still get away with it, don't commit more crimes.

1:00:35

You know what I mean? If you want to like, stay on the street, don't commit more crimes.

1:00:38

You're going to commit a crime, make sure it's worth it. Don't break into a sporting goods store.

1:00:43

And the alarm went off. Cops arrive.

1:00:45

And detective Jim Pryor was called to the police station to interview a burglary suspect, caught red handed.

1:00:52

It seemed like a likable enough kid.

1:00:55

You committed a petty crime, got caught confession part in the crime Cop

1:01:00

who catches Duncan having broken into this port.

1:01:03

And it's all we can talk about is how nice he was.

1:01:05

It's just, I mean, we'll get into this systemic bullshit of it all a little bit later, but they're like, he's just like, he's like super cooperative smart.

1:01:13

Your typical smart Alec. Oh, you mean doofus, Magoo guy, like, oh, it's infuriating.

1:01:18

So once again, they need to confirm ID.

1:01:21

Why doesn't this person carry? I have my ID with me constantly.

1:01:25

I know. I know. And so Dugan's like, well, sure.

1:01:27

Like one, if you want my ID, why don't you just drive me to my house and I'll get it for you there.

1:01:31

The fucking privilege of it all.

1:01:34

Then when they get there, he gets his ID and they put him in handcuffs and he's like, oh, before we go, would you mind feeding him?

1:01:39

You guys, this story has been set.

1:01:40

Would you police officers who just caught me burglary a store?

1:01:44

Would you mind feeding my pet rat before we go?

1:01:47

And they're like, oh, you know what? He was such a nice kid.

1:01:50

He doesn't want his animal to suffer it. They actually say that, which is like, okay, feed the rat.

1:01:54

I'm not a monster either, but it's weird that they're like, just, you know, you guys want some coffee or like, Doesn't

1:02:00

matter how this would've gone. If he weren't like a blonde white kid is what I think what we're getting at The

1:02:04

feeding of the rat is so important because when the cop goes and does it, he looks down and we did this in preppy murder.

1:02:13

The day planner will be the death of you, the rat.

1:02:18

I mean, it looks down and sees Duncan's day planner out for all to see.

1:02:21

And he, he, the detective was like, I'll just peruse.

1:02:23

This looks like You

1:02:25

have a warrant for that, but okay. Whatever.

1:02:27

But the guys Nice enough And

1:02:30

found a business card.

1:02:31

It was detective Rick Jackson, LAPD robbery, homicide unit robbery, homicide in LA.

1:02:37

That's a big deal. Well, that's I guess the tip of the spear, if you will.

1:02:41

Yeah. And it made me interested so interested.

1:02:47

He called detective Jackson.

1:02:49

And for some reason it makes the Utah Copco.

1:02:52

I want to give the LA cops a call and see what's going on.

1:02:55

The ones who know that he did a murder, but let them walk among us.

1:02:58

Anyway, again, hearkens back to Dunkin Maitland from Boston.

1:03:02

And I think everybody in this episode, or like this Duncan kid got wrapped up with all the people working overtime, As

1:03:08

much as they say, he's charming. There's something about them.

1:03:11

They just inherited a hall. Like at the same time, their gut is like screaming.

1:03:14

All the alarm bells are going off and they're like, he's nice enough.

1:03:16

But at the same time they see a business card and they're like, that doesn't look right.

1:03:19

We got to call LA now.

1:03:22

And they do. And they get detective Rick on the phone.

1:03:24

And Rick is like, oh my God, that's my murderer, basically.

1:03:28

Right. And the cops are like, well, wait, this is perfect.

1:03:29

Get him to talk. Because if he talks about our king for a day deal, then it's off the table.

1:03:35

Seems like a little bit of a non-sequitur, but he was like detective Rick and this other cop conspire, because the piece that we've left out of this story is that one of the things Duncan told the cop in Utah was like, I'm so sorry.

1:03:46

I'm a really nice guy. As you know, and we'll say to the documentary, eventually the only reason I'm robbing the stores because I'm being extorted because I know about a murder.

1:03:54

And so when this Utah cop was on the phone with Rick, Rick is like, he told you about that.

1:03:59

See if you can get him to say more.

1:04:01

Cause if he says more than the deal is off, we can throw his ass in jail.

1:04:05

Didn't the deal. Get off the table at the frat party.

1:04:07

When he told Melissa, like, I don't know what, like, if he doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter how much he tells he broke the rules of the, I

1:04:15

think that the, this just, if they can get it on tape, then it's easier evidence or whatever I can Tell

1:04:21

to everyone in town.

1:04:23

So the cop in Utah calls, Duncan Duncan saying, Hey bro, my new best friend, how are you?

1:04:28

And he's like telling me that story. You got about the murder and from the top and louder and right into the speaker and talk, it's like, okay, cool.

1:04:34

My best friend murdered, my best friend and the cops like, say that again.

1:04:39

And he's like, they were both my best As

1:04:41

Mindy. Caitlin says, it's a tear. You guys, it's not a person.

1:04:46

I told them you gotta finish them off or something.

1:04:48

Cause you can't leave him like that.

1:04:50

Cut his throat or something.

1:04:54

When he told Nathan Blaylock to cut Ron Baker's throat, that still makes your hair stand up.

1:04:59

It does a little bit. Yes, for sure.

1:05:01

And I'm thinking about getting shivers even now.

1:05:06

Yeah. After 27 years In

1:05:09

retelling the story again, this one last important piece of information is that Duncan says guest, Nathan did the stabbing and the killing.

1:05:15

But like in the end, Ron, the murdered victim here was screaming for me to help him.

1:05:20

And I told Nathan, you gotta finish them off.

1:05:23

Like we can't leave him like this. So I

1:05:25

did a cut Ron's throat. And the thing is like, this is so horrifying.

1:05:28

But as Duncan's telling the story, he's like throwing back beers.

1:05:31

Like there's no remorse. He doesn't care.

1:05:33

So not only did he run his mouth rule, number one, there's also more information that he didn't tell originally.

1:05:38

That's rule number two, he broken both.

1:05:41

So like how this ends is that like the cops pick up both Nathan and Dunkin, they get separate trials in March of 1996.

1:05:48

Nathan's goes real fast.

1:05:50

He's found guilty life without parole.

1:05:51

But Dunkin is offered a fucking deal because he had been so helpful to the police and he was, he was helpful to the police.

1:05:59

They offer him a plea deal where he can, if he pleads guilty to second degree murder, he can walk away.

1:06:04

After 12 years, Duncan says, no girl, I want a better deal.

1:06:07

I want to tell, you know, Whatever's damaged.

1:06:12

The cops love me.

1:06:13

I'm a white drunk frat idiot.

1:06:15

Look at me. I'm going to do great.

1:06:17

I'm going to be just fine.

1:06:20

Turns down the deal through detective Rick is like, it took the jury less time for Duncan than it did.

1:06:26

Even for Nathan, they come back, he gets life without.

1:06:29

So Nathan and Dunkin get the same sentences, right?

1:06:32

Cut to June 20, 20 Keith, right around that summer souls, Some

1:06:37

sitting scrolling through Facebook and somebody posted a article about the governor pardoning and commuting a bunch of people with sure enough, I see Duncan Martinez, age 50.

1:06:49

And you know, my heart just sank.

1:06:52

Now we're back to the beginning, which is like, remember when I said something was happening that was never supposed to happen, right?

1:06:57

Because of like re-sentencing maybe it has to do with COVID.

1:07:00

I don't know. In 2020, they're looking to like release prisoners.

1:07:04

And so Gavin Newsome, the governor, was that a head of hair?

1:07:08

His fuck it. I pull Some

1:07:10

bullshit. I know, I know he commutes Duncan's sentence.

1:07:12

Now that doesn't mean that he's out of jail.

1:07:14

It means he's now has the opportunity to go in front of a parole board.

1:07:18

And so he does, he goes in front of a parole board and we don't get to see it.

1:07:22

He's 50 years old. He's been in jail for 25 years.

1:07:24

He would have been out 13 years ago. Had he taken that deal?

1:07:27

And we are with Ron's sister and detective Rick watching the parole hearing.

1:07:32

They give their statement. And at the end that the parole board determines that he is eligible for, They

1:07:38

grant him parole. And when I was, I Googled it like the other people who were commuted, you're talking about like robberies, no injuries, like Dunkin should not have been on this list.

1:07:46

And by the way, Nathan isn't commuted.

1:07:48

He didn't apply for parole. So he wasn't even considered cause he didn't know about it.

1:07:52

So then Nathan wrote a letter that says, you know, it was an accident.

1:07:55

It became a nightmare. So Dunkin got out June of 20, 21 and Nathan didn't know that he could petition for this.

1:08:03

Right? So Nathan is still in prison and frat boy piece of shit.

1:08:06

Duncan is out like everything about the story sucks.

1:08:09

We're on the longest day of the year, all day.

1:08:12

There's a fucking murder of a nice dude.

1:08:14

Who's curious, his friends are monsters and the white guy walks among, I don't understand the idea.

1:08:22

The baby identity theft, like this is a horrifying Thing.

1:08:28

And what Keith ends on is that when Duncan got out just in time for that, Oh

1:08:41

girl, we did Dateline. What does this Guide?

1:08:45

Or The summer solstice. Oh my God.

1:08:46

What a, I

1:08:49

know, I know. Even like when Gavin Newsome came around and made those horrible decisions, we still didn't hear about it.

1:08:55

No, it's bananas you guys. If you want more Julian and meat, join us on the Patrion.

1:08:58

Over 250 full ad-free bonus episodes to tell a little bit right now we're talking to the John Wayne Gacy.

1:09:04

One for murder.

1:09:06

You mentioned in this one. Yeah, we got out of the dark Lorraina.

1:09:08

Oh enough with the Al we haven't mentioned the Val It's

1:09:13

everything you ever, all the series you ever wanted us to cover from Netflix?

1:09:16

Oxygen, Hulu, HBO, max.

1:09:19

Yeah. All of it. I have every single streaming service at home because someone came over the other day.

1:09:24

They were like, why do you have all this? I was like, I have To

1:09:25

eat it.

1:09:28

If it's on a streaming service, we're covering it.

1:09:31

We love you guys. We love you.

1:09:33

Thank you so much. Are you? I hope you're loving the daylight.

1:09:36

I know us too.

1:09:37

We're loving it. And you know, Keith Dan's are open, you know, I don't think they are actually, but confined by me.

1:09:46

I will forward you right along to Juliet, Pennsylvania.

1:09:48

Thank you.

1:09:48

All right, bye.

1:09:50

Gavin Newsom, what's that about? Full head of hair that Gavin Newsom. He's a good looking governor. You gotta give it to him. Make shit decisions. Coming up on this episode, Gavin Newsom makes shit decisions. And he's not the only one. Yeah. I just don't you. Hi, Juliette Gonzalez. Hi, Pappacai. Hi, you guys. Welcome to the Dateline gravaganza. I mean, can you feel my love for I mean, can you feel my love for this? What has taken us so long to do this? don't know. I mean, keep keep us yet a retail item. They'll hate our same. Yeah. But, you know, I'm just gonna keep doing this until they reach out to us. I gotta tell you, like, Number 1990, time we do a Dateline, I'm like, how do we not know this story? Right. know. I know. And everyone is trash. Everyone is trash. Yeah. My favorite thing about all these people is how much Keith Morrison hates them, and he just lets us know. And I just love it. I'm just like, because it's nice to know he's with us. Exactly. You know, I'm just telling the story. He's like a lot winks to hang up. I mean, like, this is awesome. And you know kids, I know. You know the network Brass doesn't give him any shit. They're like, whatever. You know what I mean? The his kids, we're gonna let him do any because he's such a tall drink of water. And he knows the shit. He writes his own copy. He wrote, like, just let him do it. He's seven thousand years old. Can't even let him happy. Okay. Take, keep away from us Keep away from us too. I can't take it. You guys, before we get to the episode proper, just a reminder, join us at the Patreon over like two hundred and thirty two forty two fifty full ad free bonus episode download Invitra this second. Yeah. All the long form things. We can't do every episode of Dateline. Could you do that? 1990 there, like, nine thousand episodes a Dateline. Don't tell me Frodo. As I say, don't tell me. Yeah. All those long form series, like, the old school ones we did, like, making a murderer. Yeah. Night soccer, don't have with cats, Tiger King, all that stuff. Yeah. Also, you guys add free versions of these episodes. Also, you get first access to our last tickets to our merch. There's, like, lots of reasons to join the page, you guys. Yeah. And more of us, which is really the least of your concern that I've made. More fun things. Travel down. Girl, we have a new sponsor this we have a dispatch of this month. It's beam, dream It's Beam Dream powder. Look, you know what kind of a B word I am when I don't sleep you know what kind of a b word I am when I don't sleep enough? I mean, you and me both, first of all, like I'm sort of amazed how often I toss and turn all I mean, you and me both. First of all, like, I'm sort of amazed how often I talk turn all night. 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Get a good night sleep. Yeah. I don't know why you'd wanna cancel yourself sleeping well and feeling great the next day, but, hey, live your life. All right, girl. What are we talking about today? What's the dates? Well, we are talking about actually my least favorite night of the year. Yeah. Title of it is the night of the summer solstice. I made this no. It took me a minute to get there when, like, the third time 206, like, the longest night of the year. Or the longest day of the year? Yes. And was like, goddamn it, Julian must hate this summer solstice. Well, my birthday is the winter solstice, which is the longest night of the year, which is if I could pick my birthday, obviously that would be my birthday is the winter Solstice. It was the longest night of the year, which is if I could pick my birthday, obviously, that would be it. But during the summertime, I say to Mike, like, around the Solstice. I'm like, I can't why is it still light out of eternity? I'm at least, I can't pretty bad crazy. I go to bed at eight fifteen, eight o'clock, eight fifteen everyday. Eight to sun I'm like a fucking vampire. It texted me last night. It was eight eleven. Yeah. I remember it because I looked out my window and I was like, I know. Tell me you got blackout. We do have blackout shades, but you guys it is like the sun blaring through the shades, but the trade off is that in the winter in New York, it pitch black and forts out. So Even talk about it. It's so far away. It feels like but also way to make the shit all about me. There's a horrible weather. I thought I know. I'm Sorry. Well, we're starting on a chilly September morning twenty twenty, and then I realized, oh my god. We're at a jail during COVID. Yeah. December twenty twenty, my god. Because and all we know is that for whatever reason, whatever is about to happen was never supposed to happen, and we don't get back to that until the very end. You know what daylight murders are never supposed to happen, honestly. We're really gonna get down to it. I'm Lester Holt. Tonight on Dateline famous crime novelist returns to an infamous case. It had so much mystery involved pennigrams painted on the wall. What was this young man doing in that tunnel, the Manson tunnel? Yeah. Is a pretty horrible place to die. The murder happened on the summer solstice. This whole a cult story came out. There's evidence the cult activities having taken place up there before. He told me that he had witnessed a murder. Well, I'm assuming and that he was helping the police with it. Little by little. It started coming out. There had been some plots, a foot brutal and violent and chaotic. They are vicious killers. It was a horrible betrayal. So this episode, it tells the story of the murder of a guy named Ron Baker in nineteen ninety. So it happened a long time ago. Yes. And so we meet this guy, Rick. I call him detective Rick. He worked homicide for twenty years. This was his case. They do that thing where they tell us how long he have the job and then they show us a picture of him smoking inside the office. Interesting. And I I said, I'm gonna try to get past it. I'm gonna try to rise above GP. Yeah. He smoked inside. He like leans into satanic panic, not a fan. Because it's the nineties, obviously. I know. It was animal sacrifice. It's never the sickness in woods. It's never them. And luckily, they don't dwell on that for too long in this because it is ridiculous. It's well, we'll go hold on. Yeah. Get there when we get there. I really want detective Rick's lower third always to be like former cop. Commerce. smoke doesn't. You know, he smoked inside all the, they know he smoked inside all the They all did. Oh. Those really teeny tiny ashtray. Nice to have Mcdonald's. Oh my god. Who cleans those ashtray? They also had them everywhere. Why? I went straight to McDonald's. They had them on airplanes GP. They used to let them smoke an airplane. How are we a life? I don't know. Like, yes, the plan is a fire. Yeah. This is where they say a girl. I'm sorry. I'm gonna try to say this few times as a month. Sure. Just a few days after the summer's host. It's okay. I mean, she's okay. It's just I don't I prefer -- I'd rather -- and you prefer anything else. Yeah. So it's the longest day that you're June twenty fourth nineteen ninety. And Rick, the detective who once smoked inside, tells us his supervisor's got a case for Rick and his partner Frank. And it's a brutal fucking murder. It's multiple stab wounds. The throat was slit. They say it was a close-up murder. It was personal and bloody. And whoever did this really did not want the guy to live. It was a murder, alright, close-up, personal, bloody. He looked to be in his early twenties, but he had no idea so they called him John Doe one thirty five, LA's one hundred thirty fifth unidentified victim of the year. Also RAW was found in what they call the Manson tunnel. It's like this creepy spooky tunnel that, of course, they're like lots of occult activity down there. Meanwhile, we see the graffiti now. Yeah. It's like just like regular gangs or like tags or artists or whatever. Yeah. And they say that this poor guy was found by a they say that this poor guy was found by Hikers And I said, why are you hiking? And why are you hiking in an abandoned fucking tunnel? Like, train tunnel? Because, like, that's just creepy and cool. Oh. But also, like, they're not hiking. They're just people who just stumbled upon this. If you're hiking, you're far away from the right. Even if you're walking to your friend's house through the woods, It's still called hiking. Right. Yeah. So I was gonna say, look, I'm no expert. Like, I need to be reassured that I'm no expert on hiking. Look, I'm not saying you deserve to find a body if you go on a hike. Dateline, not far from it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And even this is one of our first, like, just phenomenal Keith lines where they're talking about, you know, the Manson tunnel because girls manta lived near it once or looked at it in two seconds in the sixties -- Yeah. -- such bullshit. But with the adult and Keith's like, whatever. It was catnip for me. Don't we meet this guy Michael j Connolly? And Keith is a fan of his because he's like Yes. That Michael Connolly. Keith really wants us to know who this is. The trailer for this episode, I was like world famous crime, novelist the trailer for this episode is, like, world famous, crime, novelist, recaps. And I'm, like, who the fuck is Michael Conn's? I'm sure he's lovely. Thank you. Choo was a fan, which I don't know if I was Keith, I'm like, I want him in that. Yeah. No. I'm sure he's lovely Choo but, like, they make such a big deal out of the fact that he's a part of this episode. He's in it for five seconds. Yeah. The trailer makes it seem like he wrote a book that was stolen or a case or something like that. Anyway, back to the actual case. So this is like how it all happens. Right? This is how it unfolds. Dateline, the parents get a call, like, in the middle of the night. It was a strange voice. And he said, we have your son. Unless you give us a hundred thousand dollars by five o'clock tomorrow, you will die. And, like, the dad doesn't believe that So the dad calls Ron's the dad's, like, calls Ron's apartment. He's at UCLA, and so Ron wasn't home. His roommate answered. And he's, like, okay. Well, I guess just, like, let me know if you hear from my son. Again, I feel like it's silly to say, but the nineties. Yeah. Like, when we talk about the sixties and seventies, it's so obvious that there weren't cellphones and stuff. Right. But for the nineties, it's true. So the dad was like, okay. Well, you know, one can call him on the phone. I guess we'll just I guess, we'll just wait. It seems so ridiculous to get a phone call. Like, are you we'll kill you. Like, alright, idiot. Not to me. Like, I I it doesn't take much to set me off, I think, as we all know. But, like, if I gotta call about like, I would've taken the call more serious. This way. I know You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just like so I guess they what do they do? They just panicked. Cause you know that you call the cops and they're like, they've only been gone for 10 you don't think you call the cops and they're like, they've only been gone for ten minutes or not. Yeah. You shouldn't be panicking and they're like, thanks dummies. So the next morning, no one has seen Ron and the same scary person calls again. And this is when Ron's dad is like, alright, cops. You gotta pay attention. Like, I'm calling you now, and let's do this. So we meet Ron's older sister Patty, and she, like, flies over to her parents' house when she gets the news. They put a wire, like, on the phone, but the scary bad guys never call back. And then, like, the cops get a picture of Ron and they take it down to the corner just to see if there's any chance it, like, his picture matches any of the pieces. They did have a John Doe ten hours before this happened. Yeah. And the coroner was like, oh, shit. Yeah. That's that guy. Right. So Ron is John Doe. He was he was in the tunnel. And just for clarity, like, whoever was making these phone calls knew that he was already dead. One hundred percent. You know what I mean? Like, just just to tie up that loose. Yeah. If you haven't watched this classic Dateline Right. Never mind. When this thing first happened, we were just a few years past Richard Ramirez, Night stalker who was involved in pentagrams and things like that, and he had struck a couple times in the valley, and just how that gripped the the town in fear there's a little bit of of here we go again. Like, when this happened, Richard Ramirez had just terrorized LA. We hear about that bitch again. And then -- Right. -- you know, they're Ron was wearing two necklaces. He wearing a pentagram and then like a cross with a Jesus Fish. Two totally different ideologies. Totally different ideologies. But again, children going back to the nineties, this was kind of a thing back then. People wore shit like this. People like, there was a lot of stuff going on with the Wika -- Yeah. -- the Terra. Like, it was a big thing in night. Right. And everyone's like, oh, the soul this and could this mean something? And satanic panic is alive and well in this episode, but satanic panic is alive and well on this episode. But then Because because normally we'd be like, well, that's garbage nonsense. But, well, hold on just one second. Because Ron was a metaphorical. He was I thought you were gonna say, Colton, I was gonna say, I'm walking. Don't you know me? I don't. Ron Baker was a part of a group called The Mystic Circle. And There's some loudly because I I can't believe that my lesbian mother wasn't the president of this club. Seriously. I'm sure probably the teaching you about terror parts of the scenario. You Are you okay with lesbians? Yeah. The city kids teach you to get back to my preface all the shit to So and then we just get, like, a clip of a reporter from from back then and it's, like, the question is, did the account lead to his death and to myself alone in my apartment? I went And why Ron Baker of all people? He was a compassionate, kind, churchgoing methodist. Not an enemy in the world. Okay. There's kind of rhyme. Here are you. My brother, he was a really positive person, a real gentle My brother, he was a really positive person. Role general soul. He was very smart. He was majoring in astrophysics at UCLA. We learned from Keith, like, why was Ron We learned from Keith, like, why was Ron killed? He was a compassionate kind church going methodist. Not an enemy in the world. It's super positive. The way we got church doing I know. Because it's like, that becomes important -- Yeah. -- that he's like studying astrophysics. He goes to church as a Methodist. And he's just like, the point is he's intellectually curious about, okay, And he's like the point is he's intellectually curious if that's okay. Can I ask a Good question? I'm also intellectually curious. Yes. What the fuck is astrophysics? It's what helps planes happen. Oh, oh, okay. We love the atmosphere. It's just like science and shit. It's like it makes the world go That's probably early. Problematic Neil degrasse Tyson. That's what he is. Right? I can't Keep track of who's track of who's problematic. Goddamn it. But science, how is alright. I'll Google it. I'll do that. Puts on this this circle thing. We meet this woman. Must be. What? Sorry. He says methodist or not. Ron joined a club called the mystic circle. Why is he obsessed with him being a methodist? Because Keith knows that he's talking to a whole bunch of dummies. Because we got face to face action with Keith later. Yeah. So put it all in perspective. So he's like, he wants people to, like, give a shit about Ron. Like, oh, he's not a witch. Like, don't worry about it. Like, you should care anymore. know. I know. To be mother to care about kids. You don't have a sister to care about a woman or a daughter to care about it. We're just like fuck it. Alright. Keith introduces us to Ron's friend, Christine Reina. And apparently, she was like a member this club with him, but then she became like real wicked, like, witch. We would meet and hear lectures and talks from people that practiced a variety of different traditions or alternative religion. We've had people come in who studied Wyka. I think as a physicist, there was something appealing about Wyka being a nature religion. Because what do physicists study? They study energy and they study forces? Yeah. And so she's like, let me tell you something. Yeah. Astrophysics is all about, like, science and calculations and stuff. And the wicked religion is all about nature and earth. It's like the most peaceful thing you can believe in. It's all about, like, let's shit about the solstice and not kill anyone forever. Julian, that means you have, like, all the Solstice, you can't just pick. I respect the whole. I'm allowed to have favorite. Just like Fire's my favorite element. That makes makes sense. So put a pin in the Wika Ness. We'll come back to her. So we're learning more about Ron's roommates. And he shared an apartment with two guys, Nathan and Duncan. And the detective's gonna talk to them because they're like, girl, where's your roommate? And we learned that they were all really good friends. Duncan and Ron were, like, they've been friends for a really long time. Duncan was, like, the really outgoing one and Ron was a little bit more quiet. But Nathan and dunk in their story is Dateline, yeah, he had a wicker meeting to go to at UCLA that night. We dropped him off and we never saw him again. Yeah. And so the cops look in Ron's room, and they find, like, All the shit that's in my room. All the wicked stuff. All the way all the shit that I have. Stuff that's in my room. I haven't highlighted. I was like, I have all the shit in my room. There it was, an altar, candles, the pentagram, all the wick stuff there. Large knives that supposedly were used in their ritual. We were certainly not ruling out the possibility that Baker's death was calculated. And now the cops this is a cult. They're sacrificing animals in the tunnel in LA. Like, no, they're not. And this is where we get keep talking to us directly. And he basically is like children got around. Yeah. Say tada panic was thing. And he doesn't, he calls it a and he doesn't he calls it a myth. I wish he would say, like, that's It's never like, I'm Keith Morrison. Right. Right. I have the authority on this. It's never the satanist in the woods. No. Like, I promised him long time. He'd never have been mad. He he just I just wish he would be direct. Keith, that's my one note so far. Okay. Travel download back. Girl, true bill is True Bill is back. Look, this is one of my favorite sponsors because this is all about helping you not pay for subscriptions you don't want or need, or were tricked into signing up Look, this is one of my favorite sponsors because this is all about helping you not pay for subscriptions you don't want or need or were tricked into signing up for. Yeah. It's all about D It's all about de scamming you. Is that word? Yes. It is today. So true. 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Start canceling [email protected] slash Yeah, go right now to Start canceling today at True Bill dot com slash obsessed. Yeah. Go right now. True Bill dot com slash obsessed. It could save you thousands a year. I would have now enough. You're spending all that money on, Not either of you spend to go that money on. Not either of us. No. Anyway, Matthew, live your life. One more One more time. That is that is true. dot com slash obsessed. So the media goes wild with this like satanic panic narrative. And, like, you know, like, this was what your friend Damian got caught off. But, you know what I mean? Like, this is like this is a known thing, the media fucking loves this shit. They go bananas. And, like, the detectives are saying, like, we knew the media was going crazy, but we kind of put the satanic panic thing to bed. And I was like, thank God, I cannot do ninety minutes this. Right. Because they finally spoke to Christine -- Yeah. -- one of the cops is like The wicker lady. Yeah. We spoke to a wicker Oh, baby, what do I call? And she's a wicked or she's a woman or Christina. Frank got together. The wicked witch of the west. The wicked Let me call her. She's gonna put a spell. What are we allowed? Is she gonna put a spell on me? Oh, that Keith says. As far as suspects, there were none except perhaps the alcohol you'd showed up at the four suspects, there were none. Except perhaps the alcohol. It showed up at the autopsy. Who's a lot of it? To which I said, Jesus. I will help. Oh, geez. I feel it. It's just, like, please leave her out of this. Okay. Keep her out of it. Oh my god. She was, like, in rare form because she because Ron never drank. And he had, like, a super high blood alcohol level. And we never get back to that. We never get and he's his blood alcohol level was point two one, but he didn't drink. To which I said, well, hey, you should've drink. More. But, b, a point, like, why did how did he get so fucking hammered? I don't know. And that's never and we hear a lot about what happened -- I know. -- never mentioned. That's That's odd. Do you think it was, like, the thing that I feared would happen to me when I went to high school, and I was convinced they were gonna inject me with cocaine? No. I hope hope not because that makes it this even, like, sadder and my emotions about Oh. Maybe he'd really did drink, but he told his methodist chart he didn't. Right. Yep. I mean, I think it's like a kid in college kid. Yeah. What we're talking about and can we just go into Ron's hair for five seconds. Sure. Ron, how's this enormous head of hair? Yeah. It's like he's just Like, he's a cool he's a cool guy. He is. You remember, I would, I loved have loved him. But Yeah. -- we would have been best remember, and this is a robbery, where the guys like, they were the hippies who were good at chess. Yes. Yes. How Ron was. He was really smart, but he also, like, wanted to be out in nature and learn about religions and different alcoholic cultures that he had this, like, cool head of hair to go with them. Like, sweet, quiet, cute, straight guy would my best friend. Like, I would've loved him. Yeah. He was a good dude. But this is important later too. We learned that Ron fought his killer. That, like, there wasn't forensic evidence like DNA. Wasn't really a thing in wasn't really a thing in nineteen indie, but they were able to see that he had blood under his fingernails, like his attackers blood under his fingernails. And that person's blood type was a b positive, and only four percent of the population is a b positive. Yeah. So put a pin in that. Yeah. We'll be right back. If we ever can give a suspect, it'll be easier to narrow it down. Right? Well, speaking of suspects, the cops are talking to the roommates and they really are curious about, speaking of suspects, the cops are talking to the roommates, and they really are curious about Dunkin'. He told us that he and Nathan went to Chatsworth Park near the tunnel to look for Baker. Why would anybody go look for their friend at Chatsworth Park near the tunnel if he was kidnapped. Anyway, Duncan kept talking. Offering information, which might be true or not. Duncan, who was Ron's friend from in the day. They've known each other forever. They're like the odd couple, They're, like, the odd couple. Yeah. But they're, like, best friends. Like it doesn't make any sense that this guy would have done it doesn't make any sense that this guy would have done this. Yeah. then he fails a polygraph, which we know is bullshit, but it makes the cops focus on Dunkin' a little bit. And they say he didn't just fail it. He, like, failed it spectacular. Yeah. Yeah. He's, like, whoa. Tell me more about that. Also, again, like, there is no motive where it's, like, Duncan looks suspicious. But why? Like, what Yeah. So there's Why? There's a We learn a little bit about Duncan here that he was really close, not just with Ron, but his whole family. Yeah. Go over there all the time. Super nice and fun and easygoing. He was an exaggerator. He was certainly telling stories. People will be like, alright, whatever. You always want me to set our attention. Like the time I told everybody that I made pancakes or val kilmer, and he had to come into the kitchen at the hotel to thank me personally. Cause they were that they were that Except that happened. And I would take that to my grave. I'm not that. But he's so close with Ron's family that after Ron's murder, Duncan actually asked Ron's parents. Can I keep some stuff here? Like my store, some paperwork, like I store some paperwork, which is also just like dude, the the family's grieving, could you not bother them with your shed? Give them a chore to do. Give them someone to look after. Goddamn it. You should not like Dunkin' listener. I don't wanna tell you what to do, but Dunkin'. You should not them. And he's also telling Duncan's parents that, like, he thinks that the police are following him. Like, he filled the polygraph test. He's feeling very, like, under the microscope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so he thinks people are following Yeah. Yeah. And then suddenly, like, a month after Ron's murder, there's this phone call. Acoustic phone call, late at night. A panic stricken message from well, the call. It didn't say the voice on the line sounded familiar didn't say, but the voice on the line sounded familiar. I mean, like, a word. I was saying, no problem. I didn't know what's going on. And I got to say, Dateline did not do a good job of letting us know who the phone call went I got to say, Dateline did not do a good job of letting us know who the phone call went to Yeah. We just have audio of this call. They're not clear about where this call went, but my understanding is that it was like a answering machine message. Yeah. And we hear it. And we hear it. And like, basically this kid Duncan is saying he's being held against his will in some warehouse in north And, like, sickly, this kid Duncan is saying he's being held against his will in some warehouse in North Hollywood. And like, then we hear like sounds of him getting beaten up and the phone goes down. It sounds like a coffee can was knocked over or something. It's just like, oh, no. Ouch. Where's you guys will know if I ever, like, fake a I've been kidnapped calls. So I'll be like, like, I would be reels over the top about it, I think. But that's also if you actually get kidnapped too. That's true. So how are you going to how are you going out? Aren't either way. Here's how you know. I was out hiking. Right. I'm lost in the lost. I'm in the out side, I'd be like, oh my god. Oh my god, who has her who is. Just talk about the outside. Sure. I've been drinking on the hiking. I've been drinking so much water today. I would've never I don't even know where I am. Never do that under any circumstance. Well, now we know. So his disappearance makes the news, and the cops were like, yeah, we never believed it. No. Because they finally again yeah. It's because it's so, like, Oh, ouch. Right. So They tracked out the phone number somehow. They call it. It's from a pay phone in Vegas. In an airport or something. It Is bullshit gets more and more and more ridiculous just gets more and more and more ridiculous. Investigators tracked down the phone number Duncan used to make that panicky phone call. Reporting his own kidnapping. It was a random stranger, not Duncan, who answered a pay phone. And not in a warehouse in North Hollywood. But in a crowded airport, I think the motive for him making that phone call was If he's kidnapped, then we'll stop looking for him. The thing is Dateline, like, does these insane stories and they tell them to us like they're normal. I'm like, wait a minute. It's a painful to Vegas, but Duncan's in trouble. Like, why isn't he looking for him? And then, then we were just moving And then we're just moving on. Right. And the assumption is no, like, Duncan wasn't kidnapped. He's on the lambs And I was like, but okay. I guess I guess I'm just going with Yiki. But, Doug, if you don't want anyone to pay attention to you, don't fake your kidnapping. Just leave. Right. I shut up and shut up and leave. I know. I mean, honest to god. Because now everyone's like, what happened? Whoa. Dunkin left that phone. Just go away. Just shut up and go away. But that's not how Dunkin rolls. Also, Remember how Duncan was, like, keeping paperwork at the parents of his friend who was who was murdered? And the family, by the way, now feels like maybe Duncan has something to do with this. So now there's efficient. Right. So the dad's like, I'm gonna look through these pieces of paper. Sure. But it took him like a couple of weeks to do that. I was like, guys, can we move along. Day or morning. Dude, shit. I know. Duckin's case. I know. But I'm just saying, I wanna fucking find out what happened because I still don't think Duckin did. Oh, okay. Well, here's how about this? Okay. There's a checklist in the in the the I keep saying paperwork. I can't why did I think of the The box of paper is gonna know the stuff. And the list says it's called things to do. Yeah. Let me I'm gonna read it to you. Set up new ID. Yes. Sell car in parentheses ASAP. Set up new work. Find out McCarty's parents' number. Check with the Marine Corps. Smooth things at EA. Get new car through question mark. Do you still think Dunkin's totally innocent? No. But I gotta tell you, like, Dunkin pulls it off. Like, Dunkin vanishes you guys. He just vanishes. I mean, I make enough podcast about true crimes and missing people to tell you. That's not easy to It's an easy thing. No. But and he, like, had it all laid out. How do you just get a new ID? But that's what I'm saying. Like, when you make a list, it says, get new identity, and then you do. Yeah. Sell car ASAP. I that impressive. would think that would be the top thing on the list if it was so urgent. Right. You know, but, like, And then it's like, it's like, oh, no idea you're Leave the car girl, what's the car the car, Gayle. What's the car worth eat? A hundred dollars. So Dunkin' just go. Just go. Don gets out of this except he gets away with it, which is bananas. It's bananas. All of them came Christmas, the New Year. At Ron's twenty second birthday. Another summer solstice came 206 anniversary of Ron's death, the longest day following the longest year for the bakers. Stop by making it happen. We got it. They happen once a year. Okay? So there's no news on there's no news on Dunkin'. They go back to Nathan. Nathan's the other roommate, Nathan has taken the store, dropped him off at the bus stop, never saw him again. Yeah. And the cops Dateline, we're convinced Duncan is involved, but we just, like, we don't have eyes out, and then Keith's, like, you just get your mitts on him. Do you be able to talk to him? Get your mitts on him? You guys It is I want everyone to pull over. I want everyone to pull over. This we are about to meet someone. Who, how this person does not have a podcast on the obsessed network I don't would this person just not have a podcast on the princess network had on And she lives at a hundred in their own way, but in such a way that, and you'll get it from the way he lives at a hundred in their own way. It but in such a way. Yes. Yes. That and you'll get it from the way. Uh-huh. He's based. Yeah. He's late, Autumn. Thank you, Keith, for bringing 206 a time, Eileen. Exact yeah. Thank you. In nineteen ninety one, we're in Boston, Massachusetts. Yeah. Three young men walked into the downtown federal building and encountered a seasoned and very particular passport agent who just happened to have the same first name as the elusive mister Martinez. The name is Duncan Haywood. Maitland. We meet this guy who tells us his name. Alright. It's a little confusing. So that this is another Dunkin. Not Dunkin' the roommate. But, yes, the name is Dunkin' Hey, Wood. Dateline. It's like Marion Coatsworth. Yeah. Like, why does she like, oh, is there another Dunkin' Gayle? I you need to duct tailwind. I hate this guy is so This guy is so intense, you guys. And what happens is three men walk into the downtown federal things to building. I know well. And this guy's passport agent. Exactly. And so, like, these three young men encounter this guy, Dunkin' Haywood, And one of them is like, I need a passport and I need it now because my flight to power station, like, oh, forty five minutes. At Dunkin? I mean, we're here because of Dunkin'. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Dummies. I know. Walk into this building at this time when Duncan was working, you would not be here. And also if this guy Gayle wasn't exactly the kind of person he is. This segment would have been five minutes. He is phenomenal. It's phenomenal. I mean, until he's not. So what happens is 1990 of the kids says to this Dunkin' Mate I need my password. Here's my identification. And he hands the guy a school transcript with no photo. No, granted. This is pre nine eleven and, like, those were two were alive and adults before that. Like, I do remember that things were much easier. Like, you could get away with Like, if you like, shut up to the airport without an idea they didn't care so much. Well, you never met Dunkin' Hey with Mainly because Gayle, he's like, are you kidding me? You need, like, a valid ID and passport photos. You can just hand me a piece paper, and this guy is, like, no, my name is Jonathan Wayne Miller. Yeah. Here's my transcript for me. Great. What's the problem? Yeah. And so the three men are like, alright. We'll go and we'll get, like, the documents you need. They come back with just the picture and no ID. And Dunkin' Dateline is like, well, girl, where's your valid ID? And the one who's going to Paris night is like they're right here, like, these two are gonna vouch for me. They're not good enough. You need a blood relative. We need either your mother or your brother 206 come into this agency today. Was it panic? Maitland was seeing a young biller's eyes. No. This used to be a thing. This used to be a real thing. This blew my mind. Yeah. Maitland's like, oh, those bumps aren't good Dateline, like, oh, those bumps aren't good enough. And I'm sitting here, like, yeah, no shit. And then mainland's like, yeah, we need a blood relative. Sorry, mother. And I'm like, wait. You need a what? I know there was a time, but then it's also like, well, how are you gonna prove that they're a blood blood relative if you don't have a fucking photo ID. I've never heard of this in my life. I could just bring my mom I know. Pre nine eleven was a whole different fucking world that is why Yeah. It really was. That, like, real I mean, is a lot of things that blow me away and that's because this is one of them where was like, wait, what? So then the guy who's gotta get to Paris on the six thirty. He's like, but I was very badly abused in my life. And he's like, that's great, but it doesn't help you No. Okay. So Because alpha four But then I mentioned I only have an eighth grade education and I had to run away from home. Mainland is not having it. Like, he's just picks a fight with the wrong guy. I know. His Dunkin' Hey, what? Can you imagine if, like, teller number eight instead of teller number nine had been open? A whole different story. He's not here to fuck around. I feel like he has his own office. Yeah. Yeah. You know that he should talk. Could do it right. He can't share the job with him or nobody else. So this kid, John Wayne Miller, is like, well, here's my Social Security card. And Dateline is like, oh, calling Major Bull And he's like, I could tell that that Social Security was brand new, which means it's a new identity. And he's just like, so it doesn't mean it's fraudulent. It just a new identity. He goes, it needs both keys. Right. Because Bailey, like, kicks these clowns out of his office and goes to a hundred because he immediately calls the FBI. Like, the door not gonna click shut. Nothing sat down with Dunkin' Matelin. Dunkin' Matelin is a post nine eleven man living in a pre nine eleven world. It's one hundred. I feel like when nine eleven happened, they went to Doug Dateline and they were like, do we do to make this ever happen to get girls? He's supposed to have the file cabinet. He's like, well, this big block that he needs, like, two hands to open. I thought you'd never ask Maitland thought you'd never ask. Maitland called the school listed on the transcript Miller submitted. And I talked to a guidance counselor there and I said, it it gives English one and English two. He said that's freshman and sophomore English. And I said, well, what grades? He said, nine and ten. And I'm saying to myself, this fellow quit school, eighth grade. That doesn't make sense. But so I feel like this guy Dateline had the next day off. Because the next day, Dateline is at home and just decides he's gonna do some slew thing. He's like, you know what? That kid left a real bad taste in my mouth. I'm gonna get to the bottom of bullshit. Right. He calls the school because nothing on the transcript makes sense. Remember his kid John Wayne Miller, the first, like, document that he had given to Midland was a school transcript. It was a school in Massachusetts, and Midland calls to school, mainland is going down a checklist. He's like looking at the classes his kids said he took. And the school is confirming we do offer those classes. They are ninth and ten great level classes. And Dateline like, well, that kid said he only had an eighth grade education. Why is that kid giving more information than he needs to give? Right. And then with the new Social Security card, and also mainland like his gut is just not yelling at him. Watch a lot of Columbus. So, like, at the end of the day, Dateline knows this. Kid's like identity is made his kids, like, identity is made up. He's put it on the radar of the FBI. And now put a pin on that, we'll come back. Yeah. Because now there's a warrant out for this guy. Exactly. The FBI yeah. The FBI put you guys don't do that. And don't while we're at it, while we have you pulled over. Correct. Don't fuck with the US mail. Remember that? Oh, remember? You guys do you guys write the wrong address on a postcard. You're going to jail twenty years. Yeah. If you, like, read someone else's postcode, we'll never see you again. SPcode one. And it's hard. That means they're trying to trick you out with that one. If you're like, oh, let's oh, god. No. No. I'm so sorry. Travel down and look back. Girl, Helix is back. Look, Helix is that mattress that you get based on your sleep preferences in your partners. Right? And you got yourself, a helix And you got yourself a Helix mattress. Yeah. I love I love it. it. So here's what I So here's what I did. 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Jonathan Wayne Miller, wanted by the FBI for faking a passport application. Miller was arrested and booked in a Utah jail. But then back in Massachusetts, a cop goes to the last known address of this John Wayne Miller guy because they're trying to track him down. They don't know what's going on in Utah. It's like a whole So they knock on the door, and this guy, Jim Miller, answers. Oh, these guys. Alright. Well, if you if you pulled back into the highway, pull over again. We didn't tell you don't get back and turn the car back on to wake up. So She wants a real time chip you guys. You wait till she tells you to get back on the road. It's Keith Morrison. Thrilled. So they ask like, hey, we're looking for John Wayne Miller. And this guy, Jim, is like, what do you want him for? He's been dead for twenty one years. So this at this point goes one of two ways. It's either that that old scary story about the lady in the back of the car that disappearing that they find the husband. It's like, oh, been dead for twenty years. So either of these guys would go. Which is a possibility. Always. Always. Or it's a case of stolen fucking identity. Right. In the most tragic way because this this poor guy, Jim Miller, tells us a story. His son -- Yeah. -- the real Jonathan Wayne Miller -- That was a real kid that really lived in existence. Yeah. At two years old, a tragic accident happens and he dies. Yeah. And so this guy, imagine being Jim Miller -- I know. -- opening the door twenty one years later. He's with us now sobbing telling Keith Morrison the fucking story. Right. So, like, it brings it up. Your the last thing you're expecting is to hear that name twenty one years later, and it's can you just this little baby rest. Like, don't use his fucking name. I know. I know. It's so disgusting. Yeah. Boiler. It's Dunkin It's Dunkin' everywhere. Right? So, you know, eventually, when we're back with Duncan the Passport guy, he tells us, like, what Duncan the roommate who probably killed Ron. The whole reason we're here in the first place, what that Duncan probably did, was he, like, back in the nineties and before nine eleven, you could stealing identity kind of easily. And he's like he was probably wandering a cemetery. You're looking for a person who died around the time that you were born. So that ages would match, which means you have to steal the identity of a fucking baby. Right. And that's what that kid Duncan did. Back then, it was that easy to fake an identity unless you ran into someone as exacting as Dateline who called the Massachusetts vital records department and asked a contact there to do a search for Miller's official death certificate. In the federal building, like, where they actually keep all this shit on file, there's a book of death certificates. And the page for the baby John Wayne Miller had been ripped out. Which means Duncan figured all of this out. He figured out the identity of a dead baby to steal. Then went and stole the death certificate. And they say that, like, when there's no death certificate, that kind of, like, legally brings the person back to life. Yeah. Which means, like, that's how Duncan was able to get his social security card, he can actually assume this person's it is a level of, like, fucking evil. And also the fact that Duncan, this idiot was able to pull it off as a mind blow. I know. And this is a perfect example of what you're saying where Dateline just presents it to Like, here's the thing. Because Maitland, the passport guy tells this to Keith. And he's like, I went down there, got the record, turned to the page, and he goes, and guess what? Yeah. And it's pause. He's, like, waiting for Keith to react. I'm, like, Keith just leaves him hanging, and he's, like, sudden, he goes to the page, was missing, and Keith goes, really? I didn't fucking walk. He's like, wait, there's a name for like, wait, there's a name for us. Like, I don't care if he's acting. He's a legend. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, wait. Did That's a thing that people do. It's infant identity theft. And I've totally heard of this. IDI. Infant death identity. Why would you call it would you call it that? Because it's a way to assume a brand new identity without ever bumping into the person. You've seen this before. Absolutely. And it's a good way to hide. You couldn't get away with this today. I'm hoping all these fucking death certificates are fucking digitized. And a private bag like Dunkin can't just walk into a federal building and steal it, and then Bada, Bada, Bada, boom, the kids alive again. Right. So this quote, Jonathan Miller guy is taken into custody. He's refusing to tell the judge who he is, which is a Ted Bundy move, if I'm not a single. And that's like all that, the cops knows that they don't know who he like, all that the cops knows that they don't know who he has, because the cops now know that this is a stolen identity about, like, the poor dead boy from Massachusetts Right. And the like, fine. That's sitting in prison till you tell us to get hot. Stop there. And then the whole minute, the judge says that. Duncan's, like, okay. Okay. Talking a couple of painless. Not Jonathan. We No. Before we talk to everybody. So Duncan is now in prison and like he's in a lot of trouble. And so he gets a lawyer and the lawyer calls our original detective team Rick and Frank? Yeah. And he says to the I did that without notes, girl. You asked me listeners, he asked you Jonathan Gayle name fifteen times. I know. So you talk a mile a minute. They did this with the same chorizo chorizo. But we can freak I got. We can freak I have no problem. Go ahead. Go. So I got it. I got it. I got it going. That's why we have it. We can franco. She's lucid. But, turn. We're we're rolling. We're rolling. So, the lawyer calls Rick and Frank and is like, well, listen, I know my clients and Joe, I know he's a total fucking dirtbag. But how about this? What if he were to tell you about what happened to his roommate? Ron, remember the dead Ron? Remember the dead guy? That's why we're here in the first place. I do. If he gives you all of that information, are you willing to cut deal? And he wants something called limited immunity. And I'm like, how is that? Not an not an oxymoron? I know. Exactly. Immunity. Anyway, the deal is called King for a day. To which Keith says, fancy Agree a king. Because the whole idea of king for a day is that this person can tell the cops everything and they can't use any of it against him. And it's a deal that cops only make in a case where they have no evidence and they're trying to get closure for the family? He was in charge that was in charge that day. Our hands were tied as far as what couldn't be used, but it could give us information to move forward, just try to further the case. But there was a catch, a big one. If Duncan ever let anything slip to anyone else or If detectives uncovered any additional evidence, they could charge him with murder. But on this day, right here, He had one free day pass to reveal all no charge. So they're like, this guy's gonna admit to the murder and we're gonna know what we can tell the family, but we can't ever use this against him, except there's two caveats. Right. There's some fine print here. And the fine print is either Duncan runs his mouth and tells me the fine print is either Dunkin' runs his mouth. And tell somebody else the cops were like, you can't say a word about what you've done to anybody. Right. Or the second thing is if the cops find out there's more to the story and he didn't tell them and they know that he knew like he was holding things back Yeah. The deal's off, they can arrest him and charge him for murder. Exactly. So he sits down and we hear the fucking tape of this interview. And basically the story that Duncan tells Rick and Frank is that Nathan, the other roommate, and I lured Ron to this Manson tunnel, spooky And basically, this story that Duncan tells Rick and Frank is that Nathan, the other roommate, and I, Lord, Ron, to this Manson tunnel. A spooky tunnel. And we were, like, walking in there. We were gonna meet girls. We were gonna drink beer and Nathan Tripped and Ron astrophysicist fucking sweet ass Ron makes a joke. Nathan can't, like, handle the fact that he's getting laughed at and just stabs him to death. We hear a couple versions of the story. None of them make a lot of sense for me. What we're getting out of this? Really, the important thing is that Nathan did the murdering. And then Duncan says that he and Nathan fled the crime scene. And according to Duncan, Nathan was the one who told Duncan to make that ransom call to parents. Yeah. And we get some bullshit shit story that, like, Duncan's like, but I didn't wanna do it. But then I was afraid that Nathan would kill me 206, so then I did it. Right. But then at The two of them go home, dump the murder weapon, clean up and go to a the tune of go home, dump the murder weapon, clean up, and go to a park So how scared were all you doing, ma'am? And my other question is like doctor and girl, were you actually what would you have done if they had, like, given you the hundred grand? Right. So he's gonna write it down, baby. Yeah. They would've been that went to Vegas, I guess. I don't know. Because and now Duncan's like, you know, actually, the more we're talking about it, it's it was all Nathan. Now now that I'm really saying putting pieces together, I do nothing, and it's Nathan Nathan Nathan Yeah. And mitigated a lot of his involvement in this -- Mhmm. -- minimized everything he he did. At least for the most part, with the I didn't think it was really gonna happen. Why would you go 206 the extent to lure him up there if you didn't really think it was gonna happen? So two years go by and like Duncan literally tells that story. Like basically admits to having a hand in the murder, they let him go. They let him go. And he's been living in Park City, Utah. Looks like a beautiful city. And you wouldn't love it there. I feel like it's always freezing. And so many Mormons talk to you and ask questions. That's true. Parts of Vidal liquor store, I bet. Alright. Just amphitheater. You You know, there's a lot to consider before making a major move like a lot to consider before making major move like that. It's true because I wanna just, like, start drinking a three on a Sunday. I don't wanna be told I can't do that. No. Yeah. Or go to an airport and there's, like, it's a dry airport. 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That's your first refill free at get quip dot com slash TCL. And it's spelled GETQUIP dot com slash TC0. Webb, the good habits company with watermelon toothpaste and also mint. Just say. So Duncan is like living the good life in park Dunkin is, like, living the good life in Park City. And they're, like, well, we can't get Dunkin' we're gonna go and look at Nathan again and, like, Dunkin' said Houston who did it anyway. Guess what girl? What? Nathan's in jail for armed robbery. Yeah. Bank robbery. Yeah. So the cops are like, alright. Now that we have you're just sitting here. You're not doing much today. Right? You're gonna have free free schedule. They think that we chat with you. They just wanna know, like, how true Dunkin' story is. So here's the thing. The the detectives, Rick and Frank. Show up at Nathan's prison, and he remembers them because he had been interviewed by them in the beginning. So he's like, oh my god, my friends are here. Hi, girl. Like, what are you thinking? No. So the cops are just like, sort of feeling them So the cops are just like, sort of, feeling it out. They don't really get anything from Nathan, but they get his blood type. We got a search for it for Nathan Blaylock's blood. And that blood came back a b positive. Blaik's blood. Four percent of the population have it. That was good, quite good, but still not enough for a murder charge. If you remember, that was the blood type found under Ron's fingernails, and only four percent of the population is a b positive. Right. And And they're like, that's great, but it's not like, that's great, but it's not enough. So the Cobb sees a place Nathan in the tunnel with the knife. Sorry. That sounded like clue. That's what I was saying. So they're like, alright. Let's call it Dunkin'. We hate him, but, like, maybe he can help. So what they do is They say is, like, more than willing. Like, what wear? Why are you what do you wear this? Loves every second of this, which is so cute. I know. I know. And they have dunking call Nathan in prison and they record the phone call. Yeah. And it's like, you know, obviously, Nathan does not know the call is being recorded. It's like when was last time you were on the phone? What is it always? Isn't so stupid. I know. You just thought that cops just Casually, I know your blood type out of I know your blood type out of you. And now years after this murder, this guy you've never heard from again is, like, hey, buddy. My job is a friend. You know what? When you try to pull this shit on me when I'm a job I'm following for GP. I'm not I'm not I'm not falling apart. In the other prison right next to you. You know they're keeping us apart. Jesus Christ. It was like old times as the tube carve like old times. As the caught up. And then Duncan started spinning a story 206 get Nathan talking. I just got in touch with my mom, and she says they've been over her house given her, like, serious shit -- Yeah. -- about my blood type and stuff. Then without missing a beat, Duncan cleverly got Nathan inside the tunnel and tied him to the struggle just before Ron Baker was stabbed to death. Nathan totally fucking falls for it and, like, he gets Nathan to admit to being in the tunnel, but Nathan gets spooked. He doesn't wanna, like, get too detailed on what actually happened because he's like, got on the phone with you. And who knows what these calls are you and who knows if these calls are recorded? Girl, they're always recorded names. I don't think this line is secured. No. Dateline, like, by definition, are not sure. No. But by the end of the conversation, Nathan has invited his old friend, Doug, to come visit him in prison. I mean Nathan is so stupid. Well, I think there's so part of me that's like, is is he doing that thing where he the guilt is taking over and he's like, I just wanna be caught for this because every decision leads I mean, I doesn't seem like it because every time he gets the opportunity to acknowledge or admit he does not. Yeah. I think he's just a fucking idiot. Alright. Well, fair enough. I mean, he's also a murderer. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So we hear we have the audio of Duncan talking to Nathan in prison. Duncan is all too happy to, like, throw out a wire and go visit his pal in prison, they say that, like, Duncan really he thinks it's Hollywood stuff. He's super 206. loves it. And so eventually, like, this goes on and on, but Duncan is like, talking about the blood. Right? Because they know that the blood matches. And so Duncan's like, dude, you know, your blood might be all over the walls in that in that tunnel. I mean, should we be be nervous? And Nathan's like, no no no way. That's Ron's blood. My blood didn't get anywhere. This just happened and he's saying stuff but not enough for a conviction or to charge him. Not yet. But he is acknowledging that he was there and, like, responsible. Like -- Right. -- he says, like, it just happens. It just happens. You know, like, that's an it's a lot, but the cops want they say they want more before indicting him. So like Nathan goes back to cell, Duncan goes back to Utah where he's studying film and living his best life. Twenty two year old Duncan Martinez. 1990 a big time murder suspect was now a big man on campus. He went by the name doofus went by the name Dufus O'Reilly. That's what he liked to tell his friends to call him. Dufus O'Reilly. He was a center of attraction at lot of events. Dufus O'Reilly, which makes me crazy. He's not even actual frat boy. I know. And if you like skippage, of this guy. He just like, looks the part. He's a Utah state university. It confuses himself. It confuses so. Right? Can you imagine some drunk crap away? Introducing it back to me as do as O'Reilly know. If you ever want me to leave a party, if I'm not wanted anywhere, have some of your household friends introduce themselves as doofus O'Reilly, and I'd be like, that's my that's my stock. I'm gonna have you I know it's up in bar, but I'm still going to it's up and bar, but I'm still gonna leave. Well, from this taking, like, six doubles worldwide. But now, I'm leaving. Goodbye. So doofus, he's in a fractured audience phase. He meets a Gayle. He meets young woman named Melissa Bean. You guys? Melissa is here. Melissa is a Melissa is a complicated care. She's easily impressed. She because -- But -- the warning over do this. I gotta tell you if I'm just gonna say this, like, without commenting on his appearance. If a guy like that was paying like serious attention to me too, I would probably be the Melissa. Melissa at one point describes yourself as Volvo. Like, okay. Like like, double over a laughter. But she charms him by describing herself as a But she charms him. By describing herself as a volvo, I feel like Melissa and I might have a lot in common. Well, But Melissa Melissa is easily impressed by the she's like, he had a tattoo. He wore a little jacket, and she's like, it was kinda like if guy Fieri showed up to the party, and I'm like, how dare you? Guy Fieri is a lovely guy. He's raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for rush wrong workers. He's ridiculous. I knew he's well. She also does that thing. I hate which, like, he was a bad boy and knock it off. You know? He just was a leather jacket is not a bad boy, man. No. And also, can we normalize hot nerds? Like, can we can we leave when we normalize hot nerds? Oh, leaky in it. But Melissa, like, it's super in love, but you guys Melissa plays a major role. A major role. So that we're gonna, like, we're gonna veer away from Melissa. We'll get back to her in a minute. Yeah. Because now the cops wanna talk to Duncan again. And they want him to call Nathan again. Yeah. And so we hear the call again. Yeah. All I know is that I'm flipped. And I don't know what to And I don't know what I'm gonna tell him if I go down. I mean, what should I tell him? I did good. Yeah. And Duncan kept trying to get Nathan to say the words, to take the blame directly for stabbing wrong, for cutting his throat, And so the stakes are higher now according to Dunkin', like, the cops are coming after me. Yeah. You know, like, what what do I tell them? What do I tell them? And Nathan's like, you tell them that you didn't do it, and then you say you don't know who did. Very simple. And I gotta Dateline Dunkin' original story was that I didn't do it, Nathan did it, and it seems like that's true. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like Nathan really is the one who, like, did the actual murder. I'm not saying that they didn't both lure him there. And if they both lure him there to murder him, then they're both equally as culpable. Right. Right. But it does seem like Nathan was, like, the nice guy. No. And then the cops finally got what they need because Dunkin is like, how could you act like this never happened Nathan? Like, really trying to play the Gayle card? And Nathan goes, well, I have to do that to move on. It happened, it was a mistake, and Keith's like everyone shut up, and all they need is a veteran. 206 move on to where Nathan, like, you're in jail girl, like, this is gonna be your life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like he just doesn't like helps him sleep at night to think of it that Like, he just doesn't it, like, helps him sleep at night think of it that way. Oh my god. And apparently, that's all they need. They send Dunkin' back to film school who before he didn't get out of the cars. Like, it's a real shame on that under these circumstances. I think it would have been super cool to hang out, bros. I kind of feel like the way that we are told that story is, like, copter being nice or, like, he said it'd be really fun to hang out with us. I feel like what he really said was, like, too bad we've been under these circumstances. It would've been real fun for you guys to hang out with me. A hundred percent. They didn't even didn't even stop the car. They just slowed it and pushed them out of the door. Oh my god. So we're back to Melissa Bean, and you guys Keith oh, god. It's so good. Keith Morrison says If Delta Martinez was the charismatic pied piper of his University of Utah fraternity. Melissa Bean was, well, let her describe it. I was president of my sorority, I was kind of nerdy and boring. I mean, I drove a volvo. I was basically a volvo. I was a volvo in college. Right? Basically a follow-up. She's like, I was exceptionally capable. I feel like Melissa and I are a lot of, because I would probably also, without meaning to describe myself as both exceptionally capable and evolve all over the same sentence. Right. But you'd be, like, leather, smother. I know. I'm curious. I know. I know. He's just so charmed by this woman. He's hurt at all. don't know. He was doubled over. Go watch it if you loved it. It's really worth everything. Totally took them off guard. It was great, Melissa, Melissa, is that like, she was cool was great, Melissa. But the thing about Melissa is that, like, she was Cool enough. And I think, like, being super smart is really cool. I'm like, I don't really subscribe to that. But anyway, so Duncan wanted to impress her. Yeah. I kept wanting to impress Melissa and to do this. Wrong road. It really takes the wrong road. You're super smart, extremely capable. Yeah. Follow the road roads. He tells her this story about helping the police because he was involved in a murder. Yeah. And remember, if you guys remember Well, let's suppose herself over because she's a woman. What's the point yourself over there? Do I have a story for you? But if you remember there are two caveats to his king for a day deal. Sure. He's not allowed to, like, talk about the murder ever to anybody. Because if you think about it, like, the reason for that caveat is, like, cops know you're a murderer and you're just like -- Right. -- allow to roam free among us. Right. This is a sticking point for me because I don't this doesn't make much sense coming up because -- Yeah. -- yeah. But anyway. So the West is like, So I heard the story about him being involved in a murder and she's like, I tried not to tell anybody, but then I told my roommates, my brother, my cousins and university of lumps and DLIP heard this story about him being involved in a murder, and she's like, I tried not to tell anybody. My god. But then I told my roommates, my brother, my cousins at University of Alums, and the other people. Melissa tells everyone. She tells everyone. So kind of me sort of being big mouthed about what Duncan said to me, to a couple of guys, went to my brother, went up the chain, to the alums of the fraternity went to university police in an LAPD, and he's being asked to leave his fraternity. Remember, Duncan was like an exaggerator. Yes. So she says, I just thought he was trying to make himself sound bigger than he actually was. Like, he was involved in helping up the police with a murder. He probably didn't say, and I was there. He just, you know Yeah. Again, like Duncan, like, what are you used to don't stop telling people? And then he's mad at Melissa because that got him kicked out of the he's mad at Melissa because that got him kicked out of the frack. I know. Oh my god. You got his priorities. I know. Remember, Nathan's looking at life in Gayle, and Duncan gets kicked out of the frat in his past. Because he's at film school in Utah. Right. So the detectives go to see Nathan again because they they got it like nail the sky. They spend two minutes on niceties and they're like, so your best friend Duncan says you did and you said it on tape. Do you wanna hear it? Play. Yeah. That old where it took, like, a lot to impress the town. That old tape You don't hear some on tape. It's cold, like, totally. Sorry. I can't then Nathan's just like, and I'm caught. I mean, there's nothing to say. Yeah. When you have the tapes in front of you. And then he just starts talking. He's like, canary. It goes from didn't do it to ocean. I got caught. Too. How many times did you stab him Nathan? And he goes twice? Yeah. Twice that I remember. Yeah. At least At least twice. And I'm like, okay. So now that we veer again, here's what's weird to me. Yeah. Dunkin is just like, still in Utah. He's not in a frat, but he's still walking among us. But part of the deal was that he wasn't supposed to talk. And he told Melissa and she told everyone. Right. And I think that and as we're gonna learn, the cops are just biting their time. Because what happens next, you guys, my god. You guys, when you commit a murder and you get away with it, you're a bad person. Yes. But if you get away with it and then you tell the cops and you still get away with it, don't commit more crimes. You know what I mean? If you wanna, like, stay on the street, don't commit more And if you're gonna commit a crime, make sure it's worth it. Don't break into a sporting goods store. Dunkin'. And the alarm went An alarm went off. Cops arrive. And detective Jim Pryor was called to the police station to interview a burglary suspect, caught red detective Jim Prior was called to the police station to interview a burglary suspect caught red handed. Seemed like a likable enough kid He committed a petty crime, got caught, confessed his part in the crime. The cop who catches Duncan, having broken into this porting answer. All we could talk about is how nice he was. It's just I mean, we'll we'll get into the systemic bullshit of it all a little bit later. But they're like, he's just seems like he's like super cooperative, smart technical smart oh, give me doofus, McGillicchio, a minute. Okay. Like, oh, it's too furious. So once again, they need to confirm ID. Why does this person carry have my ID with me constantly. I I know. I know. And so Duncan's like, well, sure. Like, if you want my ID, why don't you just drive me to my house and I'll get for you there. They're like, okay. Fucking privilege of it all. Then when they get there, he gets his ID and they put him in handcuffs and he's like, oh, before we go, would you mind feeding him? You guys, the story has been say insane. Would you police officers who just caught me burglar in store? Mhmm. Would you mind feeding my pet rat before we go? And they're like, oh, you know And they're like, oh, you know what? He was such a nice kid. He doesn't want his animal to suffer. They actually say that. Yeah. Which is like, okay, feed the rat. Like, I'm not a monster either. Yeah. Yeah. But it's weird that they're, like, just you know, you guys want some coffee? Or, like, can I get Hold up in a Doesn't matter how this would've can imagine how this would have gone if he weren't, like, a a blonde white kid. what I think what we're getting at. So the feeding of the rat is so important because when the cop goes and doesn't, he looks down and we did this in preppy murder. Yes. The day planner will be the death of you. Yes. He's eating the rat he looks down and sees Duncan's day planner out for all to see and he no. He the detective's like, I'll just Peruse. That's totally Looks like you guys got a warrant for that, but, okay, whatever. Put the guys nice enough. Totally. And found a business car it was detective Rick Jackson, LAPD, Robbie homicide unit. Robbie homicide in LA. That's a big deal. Well, that's, I guess, the tip of the spear, if will. Yep. And it made me interested. So interested. He called detective Jackson. And for some reason, it makes the Utah cop go, I wanna give the LA cops a call and see what's gone on. ones who know that he did a murder, but lets him walk, like, among us anyway. Which I again, Harkins back to Dateline, who from Boston. And I think everybody in this episode Dateline, this Dunkin' Kid got wrapped up with all the people working overtime. But the thing is, as much as they say he's charming. There's something about them. They just inherited a lot of light at the same time. Their gut is, like, screaming. All the alarm bells are going off, and they're, like, he's nice enough. But at the same time, they see a business card and they're, like, that doesn't look Right. We gotta call LA now, and they do. And they And they do. And they get detective Rick on the And they get detective Rick on the phone, and Rick is like, oh my god. That's my murderer. Basically. Right. And the cops oh, wait, this is perfect. Get him to talk. Yeah. Because if he talks about our king for a day deal, then it's off the table. Yeah. And it seems like little bit of a non sequitur, but he was like detective Rick and this other cop conspire. Because the piece that we've left out of this story is of the things Duncan told the cop in Utah was like, I'm so sorry. I'm a really nice guy as you know and we'll say to the documentary eventually. The only reason I'm robbing this stores because I'm being extorted, because I know about a murder. And so when this Utah cop was on the phone with Rick, Rick is like he told you about that. Rick. See if you can get him to say more. Because if he says more, then the deal is off we can throw his ass in jail. But my whole thing is, like, didn't the deal get off the table at the party when he told Melissa, like, I don't know what that like, if he Yeah. It shouldn't matter. Right. Like, it shouldn't matter how much he tells. He broke the rules of the deal. I think that this just if they can get it on tape, then it's easier evidence or whatever. I guess. And they tell everyone in town. I know. So the cop in Utah calls Duncan. Duncan's like, hey, bro, my new best friend. How are you, girl? And he's like, tell me that story again about the murder and from the cop and louder and right into the speaker. Talking like, yeah. Okay. Cool. Do you got me guys? My best friend murdered my best friend. And the cops, like, say that again. And he's like, they were both my best friends. As Mindy says to tease you guys, seven percent. Right. So I told Nathan, you can finish them off or something. She she can't really point that because her competitor throws the commission off or something. When he told Nathan Gayle to cut Ron Baker's throat, that still makes your hair stand up. It does a little bit. Yes. For sure. And I'm thinking about getting shivers even now. Yeah. After twenty seven years. In retelling the story again, this one last important piece of information is that Duncan says, yes, Nathan did the stabbing and the killing. Dateline in the end, Ron, the murdered victim here was screaming for me to help him. And I told Nathan you gotta finish him Like, we can't leave him like this. So was Duncan's idea to cut Ron's throat. Yeah. And the thing is, like, this is so horrifying. But as Duncan's telling story. He's like throwing back beers. Like there's no Like, there's no remorse. Yeah. He doesn't care. So not only did he run his mouth rule number one, there's also more information that he didn't tell originally. That's rule number two, he broken rule number two. He broke him both. Yeah. And so, like, how this ends? Is that, like, the cops pick up both Nathan and Duncan? They get separate trials in March of nineteen ninety six, Nathan's goes real fast. He's found guilty life without parole. Yeah. But Duncan is offered a fucking deal because he had been so helpful to the police and he was. He was helpful to the police. They offer him a plea deal where he can if he pleads guilty the second degree murder, he can walk away after twelve years. Duncan says no Gayle. I've got a better deal. I want Don't you know why? I I do see the b. Whatever's name is. The cops love me. I know. White drunk frat idiot. Oh, look at me. I'm gonna do great. I'm gonna be just fine. So it turns down the deal. The detective Rick is, like, it took the jury less time for Duncan than it did even for Nathan. They come back, he gets life without parole. So Nathan and Duncan get the same sentences. Right? Yeah. Cut to June twenty twenty. Keith right around that summer solstice. Some sitting scrolling through Facebook and somebody posted article about the governor pardoning and commuting a bunch of people, which sure enough I see Duncan Martinez age fifty and, you know, my heart to sink. Now we're back to the beginning, which is like, remember when I said something was happening that was never supposed to happen. Right. Because of, like, resend it saying Gayle it has to do with COVID, I don't know. In twenty twenty, they're looking like, release prisoners. And So Gavin Newsom the governor was at the head of Harris. Fuck it. I guess pull some bullshit. I know, I know he commutes Duncan's I know. I know. He commutes Duncan's sentence. Now that doesn't mean that he's out of Now that doesn't mean that he's out of jail. It means he's now has the opportunity to go in front of a parole board. And so he does, he goes in front of a parole board and we don't get to yet. He's fifty years old. He's been in jail for twenty five years. He would have been out thirteen years ago. Had he taken that deal? Yeah. And we are with Ron's sister and detective Rick watching the parole hearing, they give their Dateline. And at the end, like, the parole determines that he is eligible for Yeah. They grant him parole. And when I was I googled the other people who were commuted. You're talking about, like, robberies, no injuries. Yeah. Duncan should not have been on this list. And by the way -- Yeah. -- Nathan isn't commuted. He didn't apply for He didn't apply for parole be so wasn't even considered because he didn't know about it. So then Nathan wrote a letter that says, you know, it was an So then Nathan wrote a letter that says, you know, it was an accident, it became nightmare. So Duncan got out June of twenty twenty one. Yeah. And Nathan, like, did know that he could petition for this. Right. And so Nathan is still in prison and frat boy piece of shit dunkin is out. And then, like, everything about this story. So box were on the August day of the year. It's hot all day. There's a fucking murder of a nice dude who's intellectually curious. His friends are monsters, and the white guy walks among others. Don't understand it. The family and the idea the baby identity theft, like, the horrifying. I know. On. And the thing and what Keith ends on is that when Duncan got out just in time for that summer sauces. Oh, girl, we did Thailand. What is this with pools? Is it night of the summer solstice? Night The summer the summer solstice. Oh, my god. What a But How does it I know, I I know. I even like when Gavin Newsom came around and made those horrible decisions. We still didn't hear about it. I know. I know it's been asked. You guys, if you want more Chilean and me, join us on the Patreon over two hundred and fifty, full ad free bonus episodes to down a little bit right now. We're talking the John Wayne Casey one for now. I was just gonna say that. How can murder you mentioned in this one? Yeah. We got in the dark, Lorena -- Oh, no. -- without. We haven't mentioned the without a long time. It's everything you ever all the series you ever wanted us to cover from flipped oxygen, Hulu, HREMAX, everywhere. All of it. I have every single streaming service at home because someone came over the other day, they were like, why do you have all this? I was like, have to. It's work. It's ridiculous. If if it's on a streaming service we're covering. I mean, our company. That's right. We love you love you guys. We love you. Thank you so much. Are you I hope you're loving Dateline. I know us too. Well, we're loving it and, you know, Keith Dans are open. You know? You have trouble with Keith Morrison. I don't think they actually, but could find me behind me. Mine are key. That needs worse than girl. I I will forward you right along to Gillian Petzawa. Thank you. Fine, Micky. Thank you. Alright. Bye.