23:59:59

I mean, there's that investigative journalist Tom Nugent. He described you in the keepers of the Bulldog. So, i mean, what do you think mean by that? From where you're sitting? It's not my favorite term. Yeah.

0:12

Yeah, I think it sounds really rough. But

0:15

Tom is Tom and Tom is

0:17

such an amazing journalist

0:19

that she gets to say whatever he wants. prefer

0:22

the term badass me to ya

0:25

and Kathy was a badass.

0:34

Hi, Julie, in here and

0:36

welcome to let the women do the work. The

0:38

podcast, where we look it's true crime from

0:40

the perspective of the women involved. Because.

0:43

Then all these stories there's a woman inside

0:46

outside beside or affected

0:48

by it all and, in this episode, will

0:50

follow real life Nancy Drew who took

0:52

it upon herself. To investigate the murder of

0:54

someone from her past, and ended

0:57

up on our things some long held true about

0:59

trauma and abuse that's still ripple

1:01

out to the, president. Her name is Gemma

1:03

Hoskins and if you've seen the Netflix

1:05

series the keepers you know her vibe.

1:08

and artwork java is it down

1:10

to earth dog lover retired teacher

1:12

and no bullshit citizen detective of sorts

1:16

That being in her sixties or Baltimore, she

1:18

grew up in time and community that

1:20

was very. Very Catholic.

1:23

The nineteen sixties, the Archdiocese

1:25

and clergy members of Baltimore were more than

1:27

just faith leader's. They held real

1:29

power. Still, do it. There

1:32

were Gemma with admitted to the top

1:34

all girls Catholic school, the city she was

1:36

ecstatic. That everyone who got

1:38

it's Archbishop get wet. The gym

1:40

at high school years went on to be filled with camaraderie

1:43

and growth. She was back on her time

1:45

there was loads, his U.S. senator. The

1:47

no small part to one very special person.

1:50

The young man, by the name of sister, kathy

1:52

says, neck.

1:54

Happy was my English teacher and

1:56

also the dry. A club

1:58

coach. And I will. The drama

2:00

club for two years. Though

2:02

saw her in a classroom setting,

2:04

and I saw her in her drama setting.

2:07

He truly was Julie Andrews,

2:10

mean, he lay that sounds so

2:12

tacky, but see was fresh

2:14

air in that building.

2:15

I

2:19

can remember we did. The a number

2:21

in this place that was from the song

2:23

tonight from West Side Story. The gas

2:26

or and the group I was in, we

2:28

were in flannel shirts and jeans

2:31

in front of these big screens like you would

2:33

change or close behind. Than

2:35

halfway through the song, we ran behind

2:37

the screens and we're all like

2:39

borrowed like prom dresses from

2:41

people in our neighborhood like used.

2:44

They were all hanging there and cathy

2:46

like ran down the road zip and everybody,

2:49

ah? Like helping us,

2:51

like, get her shoes off and gets the heels

2:53

of one, and then we like walked out

2:55

like real gracious like Vanna White,

2:57

like we had been like that all the time

2:59

in our sights. So darn

3:02

cool that season, fixing us up

3:04

for them, pretend prom.

3:06

Gemma adored sister Kathy so much

3:09

that she says the none inspired her to

3:11

one day become a teacher too. There

3:13

was something about the way she taught, using the socratic

3:15

method that made students feel like important

3:17

people with important thought. If

3:20

you put question now there.

3:22

And we would respond, she would ask

3:24

us to support our thinking.

3:27

Worse to, repeat the question

3:30

The man, she. The little deeper,

3:32

what how do you know made

3:34

you think that weighted sum in your life?

3:37

Impact you when you were a kid it's making

3:39

you think that way so

3:42

that. is the way Teachers teach now

3:45

where the students are doing know learning

3:47

and they're teaching themselves. Kathy

3:50

was doing it. Fifty years ago. There

3:53

that there was never lecture. It

3:55

was always us engaging in

3:58

reading novel together. And

4:00

we will take the dialogue of different

4:02

characters and we'd become

4:04

the people in the book and she would

4:06

become that person with us, so

4:09

it was always just digging deeper

4:12

and always quality there was no.

4:15

If you were. You know unless she

4:17

was sacked I guess and somebody gave you one hundred

4:19

vocabulary words to top

4:21

of got I. don't know

4:23

she engaged us and we taught

4:26

each other Then she facilitated

4:28

are learning and that works at works

4:30

in a classroom. He

4:33

taught her students accountability.

4:35

Pushing them to see the full picture of the world

4:37

around them and how they fit into it. The

4:39

next met fearlessly standing up for what

4:41

was right.

4:46

January. Nineteen seventy, the decomposed

4:49

body of twenty six year old sister, kathy

4:51

says next is discovered in a field

4:53

and Lansdowne, murder that has

4:55

gone unsolved for decades, recent

4:58

W.J. The investigation reveals many

5:00

women sexually abused by

5:02

father Joseph Moscow's believe

5:04

sister Kathy was killed because she was

5:06

about to blow the whistle on his dirty secret

5:09

see confronted bomb on.

5:11

Some lost her life for it.

5:15

The Cabbie's murder shocked the halls

5:17

of Archbishop Chaos and the rest the Baltimore

5:20

for that matter. Demo with a senior

5:22

at the time as this or cathy had actually

5:24

gone on to teach at public school for her last

5:26

few semesters. Happy went missing

5:28

several months prior to her body being sound.

5:31

The toy went that one night in November

5:33

of Nineteen, sixty nine Cathy left

5:35

her apartment at around seven p.m. to go

5:37

by wedding gift for her sister, stop

5:39

by the bank, and guess. Or three. And

5:42

she never returned to. Then

5:44

around eleven thirty p.m., her roommate

5:46

and cielo nun named sister Russell Philip

5:49

started to worry. You called your friend

5:51

of their's priest, Jerry coop

5:53

and Peter Mackay and. And together

5:55

they call the police to report "Cathy best thing"

5:58

Then in the we are. Hours of the

6:00

following morning to the mckeon list.

6:03

Only to discover Kathy's car had been returned

6:06

and it was oddly part. Shutting

6:08

out of driveway, tree across the street.

6:11

The outside the car was money on

6:13

the inside, the keys are in the ignition

6:15

along with small branch across the dashboard.

6:18

It occurred to them that whoever park the car their wanted

6:20

it to be found. Think

6:22

got darker. The three days

6:25

after sister Kathy went missing, another

6:27

young woman in the area disappeared to. Her

6:29

name is Joyce Malarkey. Twenty

6:32

years old and she'd also got shopping

6:34

one evening, never to return. That

6:36

her car with found unlocked also

6:38

with the keys in the ignition. Her

6:41

body was found few days later, submerged

6:43

on the bank of nearby river. That

6:45

it would take months for such kathy's body

6:47

to be found in the what?

6:51

Have you heard and that news clip? Many people

6:53

believe Cathy with killed because she knew too much

6:55

about horrifying axes abuse going

6:57

on behind closed doors with some of the priests

7:00

at school, this realization would come

7:02

years and years later though. The

7:04

victims began sharing their experiences. The

7:07

story of what happened to Sister kathy merged

7:09

with the stories of survivors and former students,

7:12

the Keogh.

7:16

Why has a fully fledged adult and or

7:18

sixties? Then I began putting

7:20

the pieces together with the help of an old

7:23

friend and classmate. Together they

7:25

set off in search of answers to, there are many

7:27

outstanding question. Hey,

7:30

girl, guess is that is. We're

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7:42

my glass run it's over would look what the

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7:44

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8:18

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8:21

feel at working, which I know so fake,

8:23

but it's got a headache because you're dehydrated

8:26

and you could like feel the headaches slowly. Going

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9:01

all the time candy and say the center. mean.

9:07

now,

9:10

as you heard, Gemma state at the top of the episode,

9:13

she sells, identifies as bad as. And

9:16

I've interviewed enough of those on his podcast

9:18

to certify that yeah, see his career. The

9:21

in her. She also learned to be

9:23

one. In other words.

9:25

Happy with a bad ass, she gave

9:27

her life for her. The world. I

9:29

mean, she knew. It was in trouble. The

9:31

new people wanting to her. Her and

9:34

that didn't stop her from listening

9:36

to girls who had been abused. "The

9:38

doing something about it and do

9:40

believe that she did the right thing and reported

9:43

it" That's why she had to go. That's

9:45

why she had to be destroyed.

9:49

Kathy was a trusted presents for the girls, key,

9:51

our gemma went there, she said it was common

9:53

to poke your head in her room for chat between classes.

9:57

From gem of experience, sister kathy

9:59

as the service. Provided welcoming heirs

10:01

to all kinds of issues teenage girl

10:03

at procedure's Catholic school can have. Including?

10:07

abuse that handful of powerful priests

10:10

in the building. Flash

10:12

forward to the mid nineties and this conversation

10:14

around abusive she'll finally rises

10:16

to the surface on more visible level when

10:19

still alumni come forward. The

10:21

jane doe and chain. Wrong to

10:23

share their stories are. Both. suffered

10:25

sexual trauma at the hands of the school's

10:27

Chaplin father, Joseph Maskell,

10:30

as well as other bad actors lead and by him,

10:33

including local gynecologist after

10:35

Christian richter another administrator.

10:37

Father Neil Magnus and an

10:39

unidentified man referred to in the keepers

10:42

as brother Bob. Very

10:44

that it off. But Master had system

10:46

of predation and self protection and place

10:49

at the school and beyond. He

10:51

got away with consistent rape and

10:53

degradation of these young, smart,

10:56

promising girls and get this. That

10:59

have ever removing him from power, the

11:01

Archdiocese of Baltimore moved Maskell

11:03

around the city from church to school

11:05

to church to school throughout the sixties

11:08

seventies and eighties It's

11:10

no surprise that many young people

11:12

outside of to go sell victims math skills

11:14

rampant career of abuse as well. The

11:17

dough row lawsuit, with ultimately thrown

11:19

out to Maryland deeply

11:21

unreasonable three year long statute

11:23

of limitation. The Jane Doe

11:25

and Jane Roe conjured storm by speaking

11:28

up. The one they began larger

11:30

conversation on the topic of recovered memories,

11:33

which come to this one abuse or traumatic

11:35

incidents, happened to people at young age.

11:37

Only to be uncovered many years later. This

11:40

is the case for both of them. Even

11:42

if their individual experiences were legally

11:44

toss aside. What about the cover? What

11:47

about others who could have suffered, too? It

11:49

became a bombshell. Though enter

11:52

our token good guy and this tale investigative

11:54

journalist Tom New Job. The cover,

11:56

the dough roll case, to the nineties and

11:59

by the early two thousand. He wanted to revisit

12:01

the topic of just exactly what went down

12:03

at that school. particularly

12:05

as it related to sister kathy murder. It

12:08

came to Baltimore and he went over.

12:10

Archbishop t out and the principal

12:12

gave him permission to look at your box.

12:15

Then he copied lots of names

12:18

of people that were in, you know,

12:20

alumni during the years that Cathy

12:23

was there set would have been like

12:25

the class of sixty nine, the class of seventy

12:27

and. Class of seventy one because those

12:29

were the three years. Then I was

12:31

there while she was there.

12:33

Though

12:36

he started calling people my phone

12:38

rang and we started

12:40

talking and. As

12:43

new kind of person she was in, I like

12:46

I. Oh, you. And

12:48

he said, "You know what kind of impacted

12:50

she may can said, well, she's

12:53

the reason became a teacher"

12:55

Two thousand five, he published a story in Baltimore

12:58

City paper called "Who killed Sister

13:00

kathy Gemma put that the

13:02

article quotes ruffled some setters

13:04

and it let others to come out of the woodwork. People

13:07

started contacting Gemma as she was mentioned in

13:09

the Arctic ops and super late them to turn,

13:11

saying in the loop along the way.

13:13

The what we did was I

13:15

live them into an email when stayed

13:18

in the serve all said that say

13:20

wouldn't be like out there with this. The guy

13:22

ask an impersonal questioned my rights as

13:25

a gem as there is it's okay. Though

13:28

with that. I posted

13:30

one the Archbishop Keogh

13:32

alumni page that, if anybody

13:35

had any information about. The

13:37

of the abuse, the key, oh? Then

13:39

please get in touch with me.

13:42

Well, I got kicked off the page because

13:45

they said that doesn't belong on here.

13:48

was like wait a minute they. want

13:50

information about people having babies

13:52

and graduations and The words

13:54

and. I'm sorry it's not my thing.

13:57

Though have. somebody go to bat

13:59

for me Get me back one. Gemma

14:02

wasn't the only one wanting to talk about that.

14:04

There's two women from that Facebook group when

14:06

I hadn't been another one called Ha

14:08

ha as survivors. It will be a

14:10

place to talk about stories of abuse. able

14:13

to support group and still exists to the say,

14:15

actually.

14:16

Then I made the mistake of asking

14:19

if anybody had any information

14:21

about Kathy's murder. World

14:23

and everybody on that page got pissed off

14:25

at me like, "Wow, we're not here talk about murdered,

14:27

we're here talked about abuse and. You

14:30

know, people are sensitive and it.

14:32

The me what triggering is.

14:34

Then the same to women who made

14:36

this group help Gemma create another one

14:39

called to justice for sister kathy and

14:41

Joyce Molecular. People could go there

14:43

to discuss the nineteen, sixty nine murders of these

14:45

two women. And while there,

14:47

Gemma recognize the commenter who is pretty active

14:50

on the survivors page and migrated to

14:52

this one. Her name was Abby

14:54

Shop.

14:58

The Archbishop Keogh High School

15:01

was built in the mid Sixties

15:04

and when it. Then

15:06

they just put in one class at a

15:08

time. Though, for example,

15:10

the first year was opened, their was just like

15:12

three hundred girls all at one class

15:15

and then they moved up to be sophomores, and

15:17

I was in the second class, Abby

15:19

was as well now we were in each

15:21

other's classes, but. She

15:24

was like super, super smart

15:26

and very left brained, and

15:29

was more like. Right

15:31

brained and probably

15:33

we would not have, like, communicated very

15:36

well then, but she was

15:38

my math tutor for a while because

15:41

I was like the bottom of the top

15:43

group.

15:44

They started talking and that dynamic came

15:46

right back seven, said they both had

15:48

good detective it's thanks but describes herself

15:51

as the more emotional one abby more

15:53

logical. Around twenty thirty

15:55

and they began working together to try to answer

15:57

the question of the Sir Cathy State.

15:59

The car. What

16:02

we knew up til that point

16:05

about.

16:05

The night Cathy disappear, it was

16:07

what was in the newspapers at the time.

16:10

The nineteen, sixty nine. The

16:13

and why? The right

16:15

cool. These friend

16:17

told us because

16:19

he's. The only person. That

16:22

we do they are. And

16:24

had some interaction with her that night.

16:27

The kind of just came naturally

16:29

to. The your boss because she always

16:31

was good at research. Though

16:33

if somebody gave her a list names

16:36

or places, she'd be

16:38

digging around in the archives building

16:40

and Annapolis, you know, the next day

16:42

I went with her one day you see are in

16:44

that setting in the movie. Than

16:47

a good. The about the during notes

16:50

from the dough row hearing. I

16:52

cried sitting there through most

16:54

to bed. An Rd who is also

16:57

read. Hired nurse. He

17:00

looked at it differently, she looked at

17:02

it as helpful information. And

17:05

I'm like sick at my stomach, get what

17:07

I'm reading, and now that know these

17:09

to win and. You

17:11

can imagine these things happening

17:13

to somebody and then them having to talk

17:16

about it. Mostly men

17:18

and okay. That room.

17:20

The few years into this endeavor, a small

17:22

documentary crew join them to cover the

17:24

story of this murder. The other the story

17:26

of these two women revisiting an old mystery.

17:29

That footage would eventually become the keepers.

17:32

Though we kind of sell into our

17:35

roles naturally, so

17:37

I spent most of my time.

17:40

"Talking to people, go and see people

17:42

literally knocking on doors in certain

17:44

neighborhoods with", says documentary

17:47

filmmakers following me around.

17:50

The man we kind of reconvene

17:52

and share information with each. Other

17:55

and we stopped on the phone. We

17:58

corresponded at night with. The night

18:00

owls and I still am

18:02

people think I'm crazy, but I'm retired

18:04

with the heck, so it's not unusual

18:07

for me to be up until like three or

18:09

maybe for some times as when I.

18:12

Shut up, I read, watch

18:14

movies on my tablet, that's

18:16

my. The second half of my

18:18

day and then. Sleep

18:20

till eleven but. She the same

18:23

way. There are a lot of our correspondence

18:25

would happen and. The middle, the ny be like,

18:27

okay, here's what I heard from.

18:29

There's no what do you think and

18:31

she would like, just reflect back

18:33

and forth. Late

18:36

night cause turned into new leaves, new

18:38

connection.

18:39

There's a super charming scene and the keepers,

18:41

the Gemma and Abby, seated at dining room table

18:44

surrounded by coffee filters with suspect's

18:46

names were at Mama. If you haven't seen it,

18:48

that may sound silly, but I'm telling you. Very

18:50

inspiring to watch. That's something else

18:52

inspiring was how these to both together

18:55

these survivor stories and said their understanding

18:57

of sister kathy staff. They ended

18:59

up connecting with both plaintiffs from the Don't

19:01

Roll Case. The A Row would

19:04

turn out to be teresa Lancaster. Jane

19:06

Doe is a woman named seen Harkat

19:09

in winner.

19:10

Theresa came on that page and said

19:12

I'm Jane Roe. Theresa

19:15

never had forgotten anything

19:18

that happened to work she just didn't.

19:20

You know, since the nineties, the dough row case

19:23

isn't think people a believer.

19:25

And she finally found people that

19:27

believed are right, so she

19:29

and I are bodies and we talk often

19:32

at least once a week. Jean

19:34

later came on to the page and

19:36

said: "I'm Jane Doe's came when

19:38

the key or survivors pays you were like,

19:41

oh, yea, you know, was wonderful,

19:43

so both have been very guarded

19:46

publicly. More so than

19:48

in body. Though the

19:50

first time I met her. Why

19:52

is it the the? double to diner

19:55

that was our regular meeting place where the

19:57

tripod filmmakers would take us to

19:59

eat So anyway, Jean

20:02

said would like to meet you and Abbey.

20:04

Though I'd only ever seen a picture

20:06

of her from her year block. Though

20:09

Abbey and I got there and

20:11

she came in last thing with a red

20:13

hair and freckles, she is adorable.

20:16

That she was very smart, she

20:18

knew she had some place to go afterwards,

20:22

so that there was limited time

20:24

she was very nervous, you know, she

20:26

was second us and. Because everybody

20:29

it always last.

20:30

People that were supporting her and helping her rather

20:33

than or family. The last

20:35

and. We were gonna lead,

20:37

but she didn't know that.

20:39

There we had, like, a nice, yes, our does

20:41

it with promises to keep in touch,

20:43

which we do it.

20:44

The and is ostensibly the main character and

20:46

the keepers, because not only did see

20:49

uncover memories of abuse by Father Maskell

20:51

and his band of fuck was, she also

20:53

held a memory that was key to the story

20:56

of sister kept his death. The later

20:58

recalled that as student, Keogh father

21:00

Maskell walked her into the woods. That

21:02

showed her cat is dead body.

21:07

So I'm going slow with it. Then.

21:10

Filling in gaps for me. Then.

21:14

Couple years ago, she told me

21:16

specifically, we're

21:18

Maskell. Kerr, like geographically

21:20

where he took her.

21:22

And that she had found the place while she

21:24

was with the cell makers and. Some

21:26

flowers they are, and I just

21:28

kept it to myself. It.

21:32

It is right behind the schmidt.

21:34

Job.

21:39

Summit and then Billy Smith. The

21:41

cabbie's next door neighbor at the time she went

21:44

missing.

21:44

During their investigation, Gemma and Abby

21:47

were actually contacted by Schmidt's a nice.

21:49

A woman named Sarah who suspected her uncle

21:51

had something to do with the murder. Sort

21:53

of the cleanup crew guy may be hired by

21:55

Maskell. Sharon, brother

21:58

Brian, told the research or late my. About

22:00

a memory, he had have relative keeping

22:02

him occupied while billion friend

22:05

dispose of rolled up rug in the what? According

22:08

to the family and the years following caddies,

22:10

that. Uncle Billy would yell

22:12

about quote the woman in the attic. The

22:15

died by suicide, not long after that as well.

22:18

Back another nice of another

22:20

man approached them to with similar suspicious

22:22

of her uncle. The name was edgar

22:25

davids and he came home wearing bloody

22:27

shirt that night, Cathy went missing. Later,

22:30

when Kathy's disappearance had the news, Edgar

22:33

apparently leans back in his rocking chair

22:35

and smirked. The apparently

22:37

said he expected the body to be buried under

22:39

snow by the time anyone would find it. The

22:42

diseases, including these extra characters,

22:45

came together and seen story about encounter

22:47

and kept his body. And

22:50

it is bow.

22:52

Not even a hundred yards from where Kathy's

22:54

body was found. Though

22:57

monumental road ends at

22:59

the.

23:00

The bride tracks at an old distillery,

23:02

it's called the. The just sit

23:04

still or a oh creepy brick

23:07

building. And it's

23:09

explains in the block exactly where

23:12

when the distillery graham. The she was taken.

23:15

Now I believe her that

23:17

she was taken their.

23:19

Because she claims

23:21

that there were alive, Maggots on Chelsea's

23:23

face.

23:27

November was warm. They

23:29

disappeared early November.

23:32

This happened just a few weeks after that.

23:35

Maskell took her there. Though

23:38

she's wiping these. The

23:40

larvae away from Kathy say

23:42

so. A man.

23:44

In another episode, we see James

23:46

Skin now. This your skin

23:49

now saying out of the blue. The,

23:51

you know, they were no maggots or anything.

23:53

The maggots let's

23:56

just them to. Her jeans account.

23:58

She knelt down. distraught to see

24:00

the body of the beloved none. White

24:03

maggots from her face.

24:05

You'll see the keepers that Gemma approached

24:07

a retired Baltimore police officer named

24:10

as she said James skin out. The

24:12

denied there were any maggots on the body since it

24:14

was winter discrediting gene sorry.

24:17

Though I have Kathy's

24:20

autopsy, her family game. The me a copy

24:22

of it. And I be answered

24:24

questions about it. But Irish I'm never going

24:26

to publish it anywhere that's nobody's business,

24:29

but did research on Maggots.

24:32

And believe that. Because

24:35

it was warm, there were maggots

24:37

they are. This is kind

24:39

of gross trigger warning, but

24:41

as it gets colder, they burrow deeper

24:43

into tissue.

24:45

Though when Cathy was found,

24:47

there were no obvious maggot. They

24:50

were in her sausages and or stomach.

24:53

That where are they were?

24:55

Werner. Spirits, whose famous

24:57

worldwide we did a podcast with

24:59

him and I thought it was gonna pee my

25:02

pants, was so excited he's mean

25:04

yes and thought okay reading. Reading

25:07

a believe werner spats who says

25:09

yes, there's maggots in her trachea,

25:11

the saucy guess and Jamal,

25:13

who looked up the life cycle other day maggot.

25:17

The see that was certainly possible. There

25:19

are we gonna believe James skin now.

25:22

A dirty cop, and I brought

25:24

it up out of that, you know, out of the blue.

25:28

Jean, we will exactly right

25:30

exactly, yeah.

25:31

Though with that, I truly

25:34

believe that happened, would

25:36

not be surprised if there

25:38

are other girls who were taken

25:40

to see her body. There is one

25:42

woman who kind of alluded to

25:44

that.

25:45

And then freaked out when the filmmakers

25:48

wanted to include her and she went

25:50

to another country.

25:51

Yeah, I mean, that's what trauma

25:54

does she have, you know, what chassis

25:56

was murdered early and mass school's

25:58

abuse career. The once

26:00

he was gone, am. Everybody else

26:03

is going to keep their mouths shut with. This

26:05

is why think Russell never told anybody

26:07

anything she had to decide. Then

26:09

want to protect myself and my family,

26:12

or do want to tell the truth? What

26:14

would you do? present myself

26:16

and my family. I don't want to be murders,

26:19

which is what would have happened if she had

26:21

told anybody anything.

26:27

Good enough, Gemma would realize that investigating

26:30

the smarter would come at a cost to.

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Now,

28:14

before we keep going. Address the

28:16

elephant in the room here, Sally.

28:18

I know that on this podcast, we speak to

28:20

many people who maybe we

28:22

first meet their screen, the documentaries

28:25

and semi documentaries. That's why do

28:27

this day in day out for you, dear

28:29

listener. Even realized

28:31

that documentaries are produced in such a way

28:33

that connects us to the characters and screen.

28:36

And and keeper. them and Abby

28:38

both are shown in favorable light as

28:41

he's intrepid citizen detectives on the case.

28:44

A lot of people in the keepers and a lot of watched

28:46

it. To relive real trauma

28:48

in the process of engaging with this documentary.

28:51

Though job and abby say some backlash

28:53

as the narrators of this bag and that's part

28:55

of their story too.

28:57

That was their design and their dream

28:59

and their vision. Then

29:02

people jump to one me. Because

29:05

I'm out there I'm not afraid to talk

29:07

to people on the street, I say yes

29:09

to interviews that are legit

29:12

I'm pretty frank about. What know

29:15

on what I've heard, but also good it. And

29:17

confidence is so some

29:19

of those people have come around and have

29:21

to remember that some people who are

29:24

traumatised were right. Traumatized

29:26

by the keeper is. And see it. grew

29:29

up in a fairly functional family, I

29:31

was never hurt, was never abuse

29:33

physically mentally. The emotional A. We

29:36

lived in a row house, was six of us

29:38

plus my grandmother and we made at work

29:40

and with. The bathroom and I

29:42

really had a. Happy childhood. Though

29:45

don't have any of that might pay

29:47

us to haunt me. And

29:49

so have to understand the source

29:52

of the frustration might be

29:54

so. Somebody else is trauma that

29:56

they're working out.

30:00

There is said to me Gemma, what happens

30:03

if a lifeguard goes out to save somebody?

30:06

While the swimmer tries to take the lifeguard

30:08

down with them. And

30:11

she said that's. The one on one. You're

30:14

trying to help. By

30:16

your an easy target and

30:18

say Master's gone there's nobody

30:20

to blame church is turning it's

30:23

back and. so you're

30:25

public figure and people know you

30:28

and so That's why they're going

30:30

after, yeah, so I. I understand

30:32

it, don't like it.

30:34

And I ignore it now, risen above it,

30:36

but yeah, that's what's happened.

30:39

Now, once the keepers was released,

30:42

add the. pulled away

30:44

from. The spotlight.

30:47

That I've continued with

30:50

trying to find out who her cassie.

30:52

And also doing what I can

30:55

to advocate.

30:55

The for survivors who don't have

30:57

a voice because I have a big voice

31:00

and I can tell you about that limited as got me

31:02

in trouble.

31:05

One. Of them as vague new inquiries

31:07

is the identity of the suppose it, brother Bob,

31:09

we mentioned brother Bob played a big

31:12

role in jeans, sorry not only as

31:14

an accomplice and. perpetrator of abuse,

31:16

but as someone who, according to her accounts,

31:18

boasted about killing sister Kathy himself.

31:21

Her memories of him, or vague and faceless,

31:24

but Gemma think she knows who he was. That

31:26

pre. Hot. The

31:30

young man.

31:31

From St clements, Paris contacted

31:34

A and told me that this. I used to it.

31:37

You know, is a car rode around with Moscow?

31:40

Yeah, wanted kids to get off the street. And

31:43

had I ever looked at him now, though, name.

31:46

Oh, my God, there's like a million Bob's

31:48

and the story. We had everybody.

31:51

From a, I don't know like

31:53

a big long lists.

31:54

Then I believe that

31:57

the one that was sent

31:59

to me. This young man is it,

32:01

and got in touch with his first

32:03

wife. Who was very

32:06

guarded, but then she called me like

32:08

five times in the next two days

32:10

and told me information about him that

32:13

was horrifying.

32:15

Tortured her, he had weird

32:18

delhi. That may be customized.

32:20

He had a stiletto in his

32:22

belt buckle.

32:25

Though I sent it to

32:28

five women. They all

32:30

recognized him. One

32:32

said he was the most violent abuser.

32:35

Which made me think about Jane.

32:38

He responded that she recognized

32:41

him.

32:41

But she was not going to say

32:43

that he was brother Bob. And

32:46

that's her business. The others

32:49

remembered clearly.

32:51

Their interactions with this man.

32:54

And he's dead, but

32:56

I think I'm right.

32:58

And I bring up Brother Bob's and Gem as

33:00

theory as to who he was to get to

33:02

this. The element of police

33:04

and the story. There and Hagel met with

33:06

Maskell and other corrupt clergymen

33:09

was appalling. The time and time

33:11

again throughout Abbey and Gem as research it

33:13

was shown how protective these two entities

33:16

of powerful men were of each other

33:18

back in the day and still. And

33:21

trigger warning here. What followed a

33:23

graphic mention of sexual violence? This

33:26

is where it gets dangerous, right, because some.

33:28

The guys you still living? And I

33:31

have the name. Image of about. Ten

33:34

man. Who were involved

33:36

in? The abuse.

33:39

The cover up. Simply the murder.

33:43

And. That thin blue

33:45

line is not real, Sen.

33:47

And I think that every time

33:50

share something with the police.

33:53

They had to decide,

33:55

do they want to use that or not? Because.

33:58

Children.

34:00

And grandchildren of these

34:02

officers are living

34:04

and are not responsible for what their

34:06

fathers and grandfathers did. The

34:09

still see police corruption. This

34:12

was like. A real bad.

34:15

The risa was taken to a

34:17

an orgy. In

34:19

state park. And she

34:21

was in the back. The didn't ask was car,

34:23

and she said it was circle of black and white

34:25

police cars and the officers

34:28

were in the cars and on the ground, raping

34:30

girls and Maskell

34:32

said: "You're going to be next and

34:35

she was forced to give an

34:37

officer" Oral sex

34:40

through window. The state

34:42

in the car were. Working people

34:44

that don't have. Morals.

34:54

And so between her experiences a key

34:56

of the experiences of her classmates

34:59

all of these bad actors and details

35:01

and blurry circumstances what,

35:03

does gemma think happen that November night

35:05

Nineteen sixty Ninety and what about

35:08

three nights later when choice molecular went missing

35:11

I believe that she,

35:13

came back to the parking lot. and

35:16

i believe that Someone

35:18

she knew he was there.

35:21

I don't think she would be

35:23

interacting with strangers.

35:26

Happy was pretty feisty, coop

35:28

says if she was threatened she'd be like.

35:31

Terrified and would freeze, I don't

35:33

believe that that's not cathy she

35:35

be more like we are should be like don't think

35:38

so. You know, think she saw

35:40

it. think that who

35:42

ever. Posted

35:44

her in the parking lot.

35:46

Got into her car on the driver's side

35:49

and pushed her over to the passenger side.

35:52

I think there was another man in the back

35:54

seat.

35:56

That is autopsy shows

35:59

little. The abrasions

36:01

like from a nice, bunch of them

36:03

on the front of her neck. In in

36:05

my head I'm picturing. Somebody

36:08

driving and so.

36:10

The buddy holding her around the

36:12

neck from the backseat. There

36:14

was a report that. The woman. Somebody

36:17

saw woman trying to get out of car.

36:20

On the street and the driver pulling

36:22

your back in. I

36:25

believe that it was brother by. The

36:28

who killed her? And

36:31

think that. don't

36:33

know if they meant to do it, but she

36:35

was gonna go to the police are already

36:37

had.

36:39

And I think that

36:42

Moscow. probably choreograph the whole

36:44

thing That he also had

36:46

a lot of money.

36:48

And lot of connections and

36:50

he would have been able, I think billionaire. There

36:52

were the clean up crew. And

36:54

believe their nieces, which was unusual

36:57

that both of them found us, you know, one

36:59

through a tip Why didn't one for the Facebook

37:01

page and they've

37:03

never met each other than those

37:05

saying. I think my uncle you

37:07

know was involved in Cathy's death.

37:10

do. Yeah, I think heard Davidson

37:12

like knew everything and

37:14

they're actually six murders.

37:16

That we think we're connected. One

37:18

of them was just solved and it has

37:20

nothing to do with this story

37:22

about the person that did

37:24

it

37:25

and it proven by DNA. He's dead

37:27

but he lives right in the middle of Lansdowne

37:29

where all this happen. So anyway,

37:32

and

37:33

The I do think Joyce is murder is

37:35

connected to Kathy's.

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39:33

The

39:35

weight and caddies cases remain unsolved.

39:38

No one had ever been charged in connection to either

39:40

of their day.

39:41

Twenty fifth seen the Baltimore Police Department

39:44

reassign Caddies case to New. And there's.

39:46

The twenty seventeen back of body

39:48

was exams to obtain DNA sample. The

39:51

match anything like that at the crime scene, but

39:54

it's not ruled out as a suspect, yeah? Over

39:56

fifty years on, and it's still not the

39:58

and. The story for. Mom and for

40:00

everyone else invested in the, state

40:02

attorney general's office is currently doing an

40:05

investigation that the clergy abuse and

40:07

gemma says over the last few years cnc

40:09

have set witnesses have all kinds their way

40:12

Other saying: "I don't know how this happened,

40:14

it was like Manna from Heaven at the

40:17

end of the summer", a gentleman from

40:19

the Maryland Crime Victims Resource

40:21

Center. In touch with me,

40:24

I never heard of them before. They

40:26

are a nonprofit group of

40:28

attorneys. An industry.

40:31

Gators the do pro bono work.

40:34

They were like, okay, we saw the,

40:36

the director said, "I saw this series"

40:39

I'm like Pry, the last person in the world to see

40:41

it for the first time.

40:42

And you don't get mad at me.

40:44

What you guys are working really hard

40:46

and we can help you. The now

40:48

is like, "Why would you wanna do that

40:51

I like that people like?" You wouldn't believe

40:53

why would you want to do that? Names

40:55

Kurt Wolfgang and eyesight hurt Wolfgang,

40:58

yeah, right now, and now laugh about

41:00

it. The said. Because

41:02

it's the right thing to do.

41:08

And so right now

41:10

they are. The way

41:12

work at the police have not done.

41:15

I'd been contacted by two people

41:17

who told me there's more stuff buried in

41:19

two different cemeteries. And

41:22

they are making.

41:25

The trips there with those people and

41:28

possibly might get a subpoena.

41:30

They're doing some things that are representing

41:33

some of the survivors to get

41:35

more information from the attorney general

41:37

about the investigation. There

41:39

are a number of alleged.

41:42

allegations of abuse against

41:45

an individual that this

41:47

involved in all of. Is it still living?

41:50

And they're going to push for

41:52

indictments. Though

41:55

they're very helpful, they're wonderful

41:57

lotta can't share. Can you so confident?

42:00

Though, but there are people out there

42:02

that are doing this because it's right thing

42:04

to do.

42:09

For Gemma, we can't forget the girl

42:11

who was raised in a heavily Catholic corner

42:13

of Baltimore and who rose up to revisit

42:15

the charts with critical eye. I had

42:17

to ask her how our faith has changed if

42:19

it's even there anymore. "It it it",

42:22

says. Pretty simple.

42:25

Ideal direct.

42:27

Ideal direct, I don't go through

42:30

a minister I don't go through a priest

42:32

there. Human beings, they're not better than

42:34

anybody else or. I can't

42:36

to you.

42:38

My husband, I talked to my mom,

42:40

talked to Kathy. Like

42:42

what we currently do because they would all

42:44

do something different and once get through the all

42:46

the conversations have an answer. Then

42:49

you know where find my face, walk

42:52

out on the beach when the be a C.

42:54

H.

42:55

Then I sit down on the sand

42:58

and. i throw a ball about one hundred

43:00

times to my puppy

43:03

And I look at the sky because nobody

43:05

could explain the sky. There's

43:08

no explanation for it, you can explain

43:10

the ocean. You can explain

43:12

the say and. When you look at

43:14

the sky, it never ends up.

43:16

Though I don't know how anybody

43:19

could not believe. There

43:21

is a God out there. When

43:23

we're looking at insanity. Nobody

43:26

that can explain the sky. The me

43:28

that's enough. Oh,

43:31

yeah, but. The Catholic

43:33

Religion or? This is been going

43:35

on since the middle ages. And

43:37

if I can be one little cog in the wheel,

43:39

that will help stop. That

43:42

care about. Probably

43:45

more outspoken than anybody

43:47

else that's been involved in

43:49

this, and that's okay with makes

43:52

think this. When was born nuts to

43:54

name my book keeping one how

43:56

came to know why was born and.

43:58

i do believe that this is part

44:00

That I have to be very careful

44:02

not to let it take over my whole life.

44:09

There's something going on one.

44:12

The Baltimore County Police that

44:14

I'm not supposed to know. Then.

44:17

The, you know, I'm nosy. I

44:20

don't even caught and somebody else is handling

44:22

the case now or even call over there

44:24

are no, they're not going to tell me anything

44:26

now because think already know what happened.

44:29

mean, that sounds very cocky on my part,

44:31

but put a lot of work into this. "I

44:34

didn't finish their yeah, Gary

44:36

Child, see other detectives it was

44:38

in the city", said Jim U.S., "You've done more work

44:41

than we have. There you go

44:43

yet.

44:44

So. I hope live long enough

44:46

to see if I'm right, if not

44:48

when die, hope get on the up the elevator

44:51

and that the people who know the. Answers are gonna

44:53

be up there either, give me a thumbs up or,

44:56

you know, like sister, kathy my mom, my

44:58

husband, that many go, did

45:00

he damn good?

45:01

Yeah, Nora, they're gonna say like sorry you weren't right,

45:03

and you know that welcome any way.

45:11

Gonna! Have made good on a lot of promises to

45:13

are angels above and if you wanna know

45:15

more about her story, check out her book

45:17

keeping on how I came to know. "Why

45:20

was born and for an even deeper

45:22

dive into Sister kathy his case, check

45:24

out Season Two of the foul play podcast

45:27

with investigative journalist", say Motors

45:29

Crime Writer Wendy. See and of course

45:31

the incomparable gemma has become a.

45:34

check out the sister kathy says next on for survivors

45:37

started and run by gemma and our fellow

45:39

keel alumni to provide financial

45:41

assistance to survivors of sexual abuse

45:44

seeking treatment there's treatment link to at the son

45:46

of Let the women

45:48

do the work is a production from the obsessed networks

45:50

and it's produced by Becasue Gory else

45:52

Natalie Grillo Patrick Heinz and

45:54

me Gillian pencil Valley and are editor

45:56

and mixer is Jennifer Slots acts funny.

45:59

and twitter That Gillian with G have

46:01

remember to put that women do the work.

46:05

And you go back to like led the women do the

46:07

work, okay, I had a boyfriend,

46:10

ones were cleaning up for deck party.

46:12

That was washing the table. And

46:15

he said wash that table

46:17

woman okay. psychology

46:19

careful about that left the women do the work

46:21

now that i'm in i'll i now

46:24

took the rag and threw it at his head

46:26

hell head had all as loud as the seem

46:29

yeah okay you know it was

46:31

like to me that way get out of the way we'll

46:33

handle Right, that's normal, right?