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1:32

♪ Murder in the morning ♪

1:35

♪ From the Hidden Killers podcast ♪

1:39

Who

1:39

doesn't like a good cult? You know,

1:41

cults to me, I'm very intrigued

1:43

by cults. Are you intrigued by cults, Stacey?

1:46

I am, and I look in our society,

1:49

I think we have tiny little cults that

1:51

are acceptable. So yeah, I'm very

1:53

interested in them.

1:54

Yeah, we do. There is a lot of that where it's

1:56

like micro cults, if you will,

1:58

I think in some cases. And

2:01

they can get kind of scary. This one, not

2:03

in the United States, but it's

2:06

demanding a lot of attention just because

2:08

of the, what word

2:11

am I looking for here? The volume of deaths,

2:13

the weight that it holds in

2:16

terms of horrible, horrible behavior.

2:18

The good news, international

2:21

ministries, otherwise

2:23

known as the Malindi cult,

2:25

I believe is how it's enunciated, founded

2:28

by Paul McKenzie

2:31

in 2003 in Kenya. So

2:34

in case you were looking for a cult to join an O3

2:36

in Kenya, you missed your opportunity

2:38

because he is in jail now because

2:41

he wasn't a very good cult leader.

2:44

No. That's something you don't hear much. You don't

2:46

hear, hey, yeah, I was in that cult for all those years.

2:49

Man, that was a good leader. I like that. But

2:51

you know what, Tony, I've got a question for you. Isn't

2:54

the point of having membership to

2:56

a group to keep your members alive?

2:59

Usually, unless your goal is to kill

3:01

them. Okay. Which

3:03

I don't know what the deal was with

3:05

this cult, why the deaths

3:08

seem to be like a selling point

3:10

with this guy.

3:11

But I would think normally it is because

3:13

you want money, you want people to work

3:16

for you for little to no money. And

3:19

basically you wanna control a whole large

3:22

group of people to get them to do what you want whenever

3:25

you want because they believe you are the

3:27

leader and you have either you are God or

3:29

you have some sort of connection to

3:32

the God or spiritual being

3:35

that they all believe in. And at

3:37

the end of the day, when they all die, nothing

3:40

to worry about because your cult leader said it's

3:42

all good. He has that direct connection to God.

3:45

So you should probably believe in him. It's what

3:47

we saw with like Chad Daybell and

3:49

Lori Fallow. You

3:51

know, they had that direct connection. He was

3:53

hearing voices. She was hearing messages too.

3:56

I mean, it's the tenants of any

3:58

sort of cult. guy apparently

4:01

started out as a cab driver

4:03

quite a ways back and

4:07

was actually fined

4:09

for his ministries because he was preaching

4:11

to people in the cabs way

4:14

back in the day in

4:18

1997 and he was fined

4:20

for his sermons but acquitted due to lack

4:22

of evidence. Now why was he fined for preaching

4:25

in a cab in Nairobi? I

4:27

don't know, probably against some sort of law

4:31

or regulations of what you're deemed

4:34

to be appropriate to do when

4:36

you have people in your cab. But that's

4:39

where it started. It started as the kind of crazy

4:41

cab driver preaching to people. When

4:43

that didn't work, it

4:46

was time to start the cult,

4:48

which he did do

4:50

and this thing has been in existence for quite

4:52

some time. The problem being a lot of

4:55

people have died as being part

4:57

of the cult because one of the cult's main

5:00

tenants

5:01

is starvation and

5:04

when they say you starve yourself to

5:08

you're going to get closer to God, I guess

5:10

there is some truth to that because you're going

5:12

to

5:13

die at some point and

5:15

if you believe that's where you're going, I guess

5:18

that kind of gets you closer, if

5:21

you will. The death does cut

5:23

down on the catering costs of get

5:25

togethers, doesn't it? You wouldn't have

5:27

to feed your people. I would imagine that is an

5:30

expense of most cults because

5:32

I think a lot of cults, it's kind of an all-occlusive

5:34

thing. It's like a resort from hell

5:37

where you get all the stuff to

5:39

get your needs met to a certain

5:41

extent but this one, not

5:43

so much. They cut the catering bill and

5:45

went with don't eat. The

5:47

death toll from the tragedy that

5:50

they've been adding up thus far in Kenya

5:52

is as of this recording 201. However, 600

5:56

people

5:59

are still missing. Jeez.

6:02

I'm just, I am so fascinated

6:04

how one person, he

6:06

started in a cab, didn't really work

6:08

out so well, somehow convinced

6:11

almost a thousand people to

6:14

join him on his massive 800

6:16

acre property

6:19

to be part of this group. I

6:22

just don't understand how, you know,

6:24

we've seen charismatic leaders. We've

6:27

seen charismatic movie

6:30

stars and people that you would follow to the

6:32

ends of the earth. But I think at

6:34

some point wouldn't common sense kick in

6:36

that, you know, Garth Brooks wants me to

6:38

starve myself so I can get closer

6:41

to what, no, you go, you know what? He's

6:43

a great artist. He's a fabulous

6:45

performer, but I'm going to draw the

6:47

line somewhere. He's not the personality

6:50

though. Cross that.

6:51

It's not just like, Hey, you're famous.

6:53

Let me do whatever you say. Cause this guy certainly wasn't

6:55

famous. You can be anybody off

6:57

the street. It doesn't take a celebrity.

7:00

It just takes the right type of individual

7:03

that is somehow cunning enough

7:05

to make you believe. I

7:08

think, I think if Garth Brooks said, uh,

7:10

you know, to stop eating tomorrow,

7:12

very few would do. Maybe you'd have a couple,

7:15

but if you had someone

7:16

that people seem to go

7:18

to, to the ends of the earth on, uh, and

7:21

will follow blindly,

7:24

no matter what they say, uh, you'd have

7:26

to find a more charismatic person,

7:28

uh, in history. Um,

7:31

I'm not trying to be political here, but I think

7:34

Donald Trump could probably ask a lot of people to

7:36

do that. And they would, I'm not saying

7:38

I'm not saying pro, I'm not saying, auntie, I'm just saying

7:41

he has that power.

7:42

Uh, and, and people have that

7:45

sort of, it's

7:46

not everyone, but some people have that

7:48

sort of

7:49

kind of strange relationship, uh,

7:51

with an individual that they've never met. There's

7:54

a sort of power there. And I don't know what that is,

7:56

but there's other leaders. There's other people

7:58

in history

7:59

who serve.

7:59

have had that as well.

8:02

You know, you can take a look

8:04

at Hitler. How

8:06

Hitler got so many people to do

8:10

just horrific things just by

8:12

asking them to do it and ordering them

8:14

to do it.

8:15

And sometimes it happens because you have no

8:17

choice and you need to go along for your own survival.

8:21

Other times people are just so dedicated

8:23

to what they believe is the right cause.

8:26

And if this person who you trusted

8:28

for everything is telling you something

8:30

that is right or you believe they've always

8:32

been right on everything, well, why

8:35

would they be wrong if they're telling you to do this now? It

8:37

would then have to put into question every single

8:39

belief that you've had in this individual for all

8:42

that time could possibly be incorrect. And

8:45

it changes your narrative so dramatically

8:47

that it will be far more easy to go along

8:49

with drinking the Kool-Aid

8:51

than it would be to question your judgment over

8:53

the last however. Long

8:56

you've been following someone. So

8:59

we've seen so many people in even

9:02

the podcast stories that where they just

9:04

blindly follow

9:06

and don't seem to be using their own critical thought.

9:09

They're not stepping back

9:11

and saying, wait a minute, I don't think

9:13

this is right. No, they are. They have gone

9:16

full in down the rabbit hole and

9:18

they are there for all of it.

9:20

Well, it certainly has worked for this guy for

9:22

quite a while, despite claiming to have shut down his church

9:24

in twenty nineteen

9:26

and move to the forest for farming. Mackenzie,

9:28

along with his wife and sixteen others

9:31

are now in custody. By the

9:33

way, that former property, that 800 acre

9:35

property, it's basically

9:38

filled with mass graves. Oh, geez,

9:40

is what they are finding.

9:42

Autopsies in over 100 bodies

9:45

determine cause of death, including starvation,

9:48

suffocation, strangulation

9:51

and blunt force trauma.

9:52

The victims allegedly were ordered by

9:55

their leader, Pastor Paul Mackenzie,

9:57

to starve themselves. to

10:00

meet Jesus. The

10:02

bodies that are being unearthed in the mass graves

10:05

show signs of starvation.

10:08

So,

10:09

I mean, the thing that comes to mind when

10:11

I think of mass graves and starvation is the Holocaust.

10:14

If you've ever watched any of those videos,

10:17

I don't know if they show them to children anymore,

10:19

if it's too much of a trigger to

10:22

deal with the reality of the world that we've

10:24

lived in. But

10:25

I remember being shown those movies

10:27

in, I think, elementary school,

10:30

and it was horrifying to watch,

10:32

seeing those things. And I think people

10:34

should see them

10:35

so they can understand the

10:38

power that some

10:40

charismatic people hold

10:42

and how far they can go with

10:44

extreme beliefs. Extremely

10:48

disturbing. And just to know

10:50

that this has happened in the past,

10:52

and now here we are again, we

10:54

don't know how big this story is going to get. I also

10:57

read somewhere about possible organ

11:00

harvesting taking place. So there might

11:02

have been an underground, if you

11:04

will, kind of an organ black

11:07

market of sorts.

11:08

Or as we call it here in the States,

11:10

a side hustle. His

11:13

side hustle was harvesting

11:16

organs, it looks like. Local media reported

11:18

somebody said missing internal organs,

11:21

which would, yes, I

11:24

don't know how much money internal

11:27

organs go for that have been starved

11:29

to death

11:30

and like shut down. But

11:32

I would imagine maybe, you know, maybe some

11:34

of it was going on. Some

11:37

of the other causes of death. Well,

11:39

here's where you probably get the healthy organs. Star,

11:41

not starvation, suffocation, strangulation,

11:44

and blunt force trauma

11:45

are also some of the causes of

11:47

death that they're finding on the hundreds of bodies

11:50

on his cult farm. Rescue

11:55

operations are ongoing on his

11:57

property. However, the exact number of survivors

11:59

rest

11:59

rescued is not currently

12:02

known. Uh, I

12:04

did, I did read that even some

12:06

of those who were rescued from his clutches,

12:09

they still won't eat. They are

12:11

refusing any nourishment because

12:13

they are so believing that

12:15

eating will cause

12:18

them to not meet Jesus. So it's, it's

12:20

going to be something where they're going to need absolute

12:22

care for quite some time after

12:24

this.

12:24

And I imagine some will still die. Uh, cause

12:28

you get so into far so far into somebody's

12:31

head, uh,

12:31

or they get into your head and you,

12:34

but I mean, it's like, they tap into

12:36

like core beliefs. It's

12:38

not just, you know, wants or

12:41

needs it's beyond needs. It's, it's

12:44

core survival.

12:46

And if your religious

12:49

leader that you believe is right on

12:51

everything

12:52

as infallible and they're telling you something

12:54

like that,

12:55

good luck, breaking that some people

12:57

will come out. Some

12:59

will not.

13:00

Uh, it's, you know, as

13:02

many survivors have been found in extremely

13:04

weak States, uh, on his farm, unable

13:07

to walk

13:08

without existence of without assistance. Um,

13:11

due to the prevalence of cults,

13:14

uh, in the religious society of Kenya,

13:17

law enforcement is questioning other religious

13:19

leaders about potentially misleading teaches, uh,

13:22

teachings and human rights violations. So

13:24

there, this is a country that is ripe

13:26

with some cultish behavior

13:28

that's going on and people

13:31

ultimately

13:32

searching for something. Something

13:35

is definitely missing in that

13:37

society. If a

13:40

land of cults is what is it's

13:43

turning into,

13:44

uh, that's what you typically see

13:46

in areas with individuals who

13:49

are missing something

13:51

very deep in their soul. And

13:53

they need some sort of guidance. I'm

13:55

going to guess that's why you have that

13:58

level of, uh,

13:59

cultiness if you will Yeah,

14:03

absolutely in response in

14:05

response to the tragic events the

14:07

president there has formed a commission to

14:10

investigate the Circumstances leading up to the

14:12

deaths

14:12

and recommend actions against any institutions

14:15

that failed to axe Mackenzie Was

14:17

previously charged in connection to the deaths

14:20

of children in his church

14:22

on a separate case. That's ongoing I

14:24

guess it's not quite like the US where if he

14:26

get charged in the deaths of children you're behind

14:28

bars They let him hang on at his farm

14:30

and continue to

14:32

to do his thing Wow,

14:35

so Wow, so they could have prevented this It

14:38

looks like it could have been prevented in many ways

14:40

shapes and forms But how do you prevent people's

14:42

belief systems? I guess is the other thing and

14:45

and churches and things like that and

14:47

I'm in the US obviously very protected

14:49

I would also I'd be very curious

14:52

if we did a deeper dive into

14:55

religious practices in

14:57

the United States and There's

14:59

a lot of one-offs

15:01

If you notice in some areas, especially

15:03

in the South where I live You

15:06

drive into almost any community

15:08

You're gonna have a lot of churches and then some

15:10

are big and some are really small like

15:13

really really really really small And

15:16

usually the smaller it is it's not so

15:18

much. Hey, we're more free. It's like no we're more

15:20

controlling it's more like there's one leader

15:22

and there's 20 of you and

15:24

We are really gonna dictate exactly

15:26

what's going on. I mean, there's there are

15:28

things like this Maybe not necessarily the 800 mass

15:30

graves That's

15:33

for funeral homes, which we've learned in the last couple

15:35

of years But I would

15:38

not be surprised if we see

15:40

more of this sort of thing around but it's protected

15:42

and it's it's in the name of

15:44

Of a religion and it's scary what you

15:47

can get people to do when you involve God

15:49

Yeah, so oh, yeah, it's

15:51

it's like it's a drug It really

15:54

is and and if you go up against

15:56

it, it you're basically sending

15:58

yourself to hell

15:59

You know, that's what some of these people believe. And it's,

16:03

you know, we've seen

16:04

there's a diversion from

16:06

religion in, you know, Generation

16:09

Z. They don't, a lot of them don't

16:11

want anything to do with religion. But, you

16:13

know, when we look at our parents, they

16:15

dive more into it, it seems. So it's just

16:18

really a very strange cross-section

16:21

of the world right now.

16:22

So if you do go to Kenya and

16:25

there's like, you know, the excursion

16:27

list that you get, like, hey, let's go

16:29

this,

16:30

the Doomsday Cult, that

16:33

is one. Anything involving

16:36

Paul McKenzie,

16:37

avoid it. It is no longer

16:39

an option for

16:40

your tourist destination travel.

16:46

Lots of other good things to see. Murder

16:48

in the morning. Not the

16:50

cult though. Don't drink

16:53

anything there. Don't have any snacks.

16:55

Don't even go to the vending machine. You gotta

16:57

be careful with the cults. From

17:00

the hit killer's podcast,

17:03

Murder in the Morning.

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