0:00

Did Did you know

0:02

at Kroger, shopping online with

0:05

pickup and delivery is the

0:07

same as shopping in-store? Same

0:09

low prices, same personalized deals,

0:11

same rewards, with no hidden

0:14

fees or markups on your

0:16

same family favorites, like

0:18

Honeycrisp apples and pasta sauce.

0:21

The only difference is you don't

0:23

have to put on shoes. Start

0:25

your cart today at kroger.com. Kroger,

0:27

fresh for everyone. restrictions apply,

0:29

see site for details. job change in the

0:31

new year? Yeah, I need something that's in high demand

0:33

and more stable in this economy. IT? Yeah,

0:36

cyber security, maybe even AI. That's

0:38

what I did. Really, how? Went

0:40

to My Computer Career. You don't need any prior experience and you could

0:42

start your new career in a matter of months. A

0:45

lot of IT pros go to school there

0:47

too to level up. Sweet, are classes online

0:49

or on campus? Both. Wow, I'll

0:51

check it out. Thanks. Make this

0:53

your year. Take the free career

0:55

evaluation now at MyComputerCareer.edu. All

0:58

of the latest available for qualified students, including the GI Bill. You

1:07

are now listening to True Murder, the

1:10

most shocking killers in true crime history

1:13

and the authors that have written about them. Gacy,

1:16

Bundy, Dahmer, The Night

1:18

Stalker, BTK. Every

1:21

week another fascinating author talking about

1:23

the most shocking and infamous killers

1:25

in true crime history. True

1:28

murder with your host, journalist

1:30

and author, Dan Zufanski. Good

1:42

evening. In their book,

1:44

A Special Kind of Evil, The

1:46

Colonial Parkway Serial Killings, authors

1:49

Blaine Pardo and Victoria Hester

1:51

wrote about Alan Wade Wilmer

1:53

Sr., who was the prime

1:55

suspect in the 1988 disappearance

1:58

and murders of Richard Keaton. Heath

2:00

Call and Cassandra Haley. He was

2:02

under police surveillance and fit the

2:05

criminal profile the FBI had developed.

2:08

An expert polygrapher administered an exam

2:10

to Wilmer and he passed. As

2:12

a result, he was cleared as

2:14

a suspect. On January 8,

2:17

2024, the Virginia State Police

2:19

announced that through DNA, Alan

2:21

Wade Wilmer Sr., who died

2:23

in 2017, has been identified

2:25

as the killer of David

2:27

Nobling and Robert Edwards, who

2:29

were written about extensively in

2:32

a special kind of evil

2:34

and for the killing of

2:36

a nearby Hampton, Virginia woman,

2:38

Teresa Lynn Howell in 1989. Blaine

2:42

Pardo joins me now to discuss

2:44

the latest developments in the Colonial

2:47

Parkway serial killings, Alan Wade Wilmer

2:49

Sr., the FBI agent who zeroed

2:51

in on Wilmer. And

2:53

what's next in the ongoing

2:55

Colonial Parkway murder investigation? Tonight's

2:58

program is A Special Kind

3:00

of Evil, The Colonial Parkway

3:02

Serial Killings and Alan Wade

3:05

Wilmer Sr., with my special

3:07

guest, journalist and author, Blaine

3:09

Pardo. Welcome to the program.

3:11

Thank you very much for this interview. Blaine Pardo.

3:14

Great to be back on talking with you,

3:16

especially with news like this. Well let's get

3:18

right to this. You are the

3:20

author of A Special Kind of Evil, and that's how

3:22

you came to this case. That book was released in

3:24

2017 with

3:27

your co-author daughter, Victoria Hester, and

3:29

that's a wild blue press release.

3:32

Tell us where you were and

3:34

the circumstances and the news that you

3:36

heard surrounding the case that you talk

3:38

about in A Special Kind of Evil.

3:40

Well, I was online actually at the time and

3:42

a friend of mine associated with the case reached

3:44

out to me and said, you're going to want

3:47

to tune in. They're doing a press conference on

3:49

the Colonial Parkway murders. So I

3:51

pulled it up and caught it

3:53

as it was starting, watched it

3:55

unfold, And I Got to say it

3:57

was kind of a gut punch, what they had revealed.

4:00

The old was that the Polio Parkway

4:02

Murders is a series of eight murders.

4:04

These people were always killed and couples

4:06

in the nineteen eighties started ninety nice

4:09

X and except are a native often

4:11

been referred to as like the Lovers

4:13

Lane type murderers and things on those

4:15

lines. But they announced the two of

4:18

those crimes that I'm David Dabbling and

4:20

Robin Edwards. And. Of another

4:22

person. Had. Been solved and

4:24

have been solved You Dna evidence

4:26

and a splash. The guys picture

4:28

off during the press conference and

4:31

I didn't recognize them into a

4:33

first when they showed his truck

4:35

and I saw his vanity license

4:37

plate. Gotta tell ya, chill wind

4:39

up my spine. Riot was. I'd.

4:42

Interviewed or of Wells A Cool as

4:44

the Special Agent in charge for the

4:46

F B I and the Call Healy

4:49

case it. He had told me about

4:51

their prime suspect in that case who's

4:53

four days after. They. Had

4:55

brought the couple of disappeared.

4:58

Dead. Basically. Have this

5:00

guy under surveillance at issue, do a

5:02

search warrant and property in the and

5:04

cleared him. Due. To polygraph

5:07

test and earth told me

5:09

he said. The. Back to

5:11

my mind he said I knew we

5:13

have the right guy He said our

5:15

profile from the very first murder he

5:17

was known stock around the Colonial Parkway

5:19

confronting people that we had a have

5:21

any said I've always felt like we

5:23

live Go! But yeah we said we

5:26

had our best autograph person I'll am.

5:28

And. Said this guy was was perfectly fine

5:30

and when I saw his license plate

5:32

I'd even point variants of the license

5:35

plate in the book because at the

5:37

time I wanna put the guys actual

5:39

license plate, have people harass him and

5:41

stuff. Once the F B I cleared

5:43

him, now I look at it. Go.

5:45

They had him all along. They had

5:47

this guide pinned and murders that followed

5:49

and didn't capture him. Tell. Our

5:52

audience blade about the Waterman profile

5:54

is graded who created it and

5:56

what you referring to when you

5:58

say Waterman. Well. In

6:00

Virginia and in the Chesapeake Bay

6:02

area, watermen is kind of a,

6:05

it's almost a cultural group of

6:07

fishermen. Some of them

6:09

are oyster fishermen, some are crabbers,

6:11

some are just fishermen fishermen. They

6:13

have their own dialect that they

6:15

speak in. They're very much a

6:17

closed culture. And in some of

6:19

it, it dates right back to

6:21

the colonial period. During

6:23

the first paramerge, which were the

6:25

Tomastowski murders, initially the

6:27

FBI thought that it was a lover's

6:31

triangle. And they focused in on

6:33

a very close circle of friends

6:35

around the two victims. They then

6:37

realized that it wasn't. And

6:40

when that happened, they put together

6:42

a profile and the FBI behavioral

6:44

profile for it, put together a

6:46

profile and said, it's most likely

6:48

a waterman because the colonial parkway

6:50

kind of snakes along the York River

6:52

where a lot of the watermen fish. And

6:55

they said, a waterman would have

6:57

diesel fuel, which was how the

6:59

Tomastowski car was hit. The

7:02

knife used in those murders

7:04

was considered to be

7:07

a long curved blade, very sharp,

7:09

which would also be a fisherman's type blade.

7:12

And they said whoever did this was

7:14

probably someone who had a reputation and

7:17

even potentially legal problems with

7:20

stalking people on the parkway,

7:22

that this was somebody

7:24

who operated in the parkway. Well,

7:26

the FBI on the third set

7:28

of murders dusted that profile off.

7:31

And that's what Erv Wells told me.

7:34

And he said, we started to look

7:36

at people that were cruising the parkway

7:38

who were stalking people. And

7:40

it turns out that they actually had one. And

7:42

he had a very distinctive license plate and a

7:44

truck and was identified.

7:46

The FBI found this guy.

7:49

And when they found him, they started

7:51

doing surveillance on him. And this is

7:54

four days after the call Haley murders,

7:56

which are the pyramerters that follow those

7:58

that have been recently. he saw

8:00

last week. And as they were

8:02

following him, he started to vacuum

8:04

out his truck, paint the back

8:06

of the truck, bed, and things along those

8:09

lines, which seemed like the kind of behavior of

8:11

somebody trying to cover up evidence. They

8:13

got a search warrant, they found pornography,

8:15

they found handcuffs, a

8:17

gun, etc. They

8:20

brought the guy in and pollyed him

8:22

and he cleared. So they

8:24

took him off their radar and it turns

8:26

out he is the suspect now and

8:29

has been named as the person who

8:31

committed the murders of

8:33

Robin Edwards and David

8:35

Nobling and one other person. You

8:39

write in your book, A Special Kind of

8:41

Evil. You talk about though, he

8:43

lives with his brother. So he

8:45

lives with his brother and you

8:48

didn't distinguish between which brother

8:51

these agents lead. You write that

8:53

the agents would do these drive-bys to

8:55

see what kind of whatever they could

8:57

discern from outside of his trailer and

8:59

that's when they spotted him painting the

9:01

truck bed, spray painting the

9:03

truck bed and vacuuming out the truck.

9:06

And so you say that they didn't

9:08

distinguish or you don't distinguish in the

9:10

book between which brother was also a

9:13

murder suspect in another county and

9:15

which brother was painting the bed

9:17

of the truck. Yeah, didn't do

9:19

it at the time because I didn't have

9:21

the information from the FBI on him. Herb

9:24

Wells was always a professional, he was retired

9:26

at the time I interviewed him and

9:28

he was very reluctant to actually give me the

9:30

guy's name and I think some of that was

9:32

due to his memory. I don't think he remembered

9:35

the guy's name exactly, which really

9:37

didn't give me much to go on.

9:39

What he did give me was the license

9:41

plate, which I changed in the book slightly.

9:43

I just didn't want people harassing someone that

9:46

the FBI had cleared in the case. So

9:48

it was one of those things when I

9:50

saw the license plate, that's when it clicked

9:52

with me. The concept that this guy would

9:55

be vacuuming out that truck, those pictures were

9:57

clearly taken by the FBI of his

9:59

vehicle. that they showed

10:01

at the press conference and it

10:03

just was ridiculous. He was clearly

10:06

trying to conceal evidence at the

10:08

time. Let's talk about before

10:10

we talk about the crimes

10:12

that he has now been

10:14

linked to through this new

10:16

DNA technology and new revisiting

10:18

the crime again through DNA

10:20

analysis. We talk about one

10:22

of the victims, Teresa Lynn

10:24

Howell, a 29-year-old and she

10:26

was last seen about 2.30

10:28

a.m. in the city of

10:30

Hampton, Virginia. Tell us what's

10:32

the distance between Hampton and

10:34

Williamsburg where the Colonial Parkway

10:37

area is and tell

10:39

us a little bit more about what

10:41

about Teresa Lynn Howell's murder and

10:44

the particulars. I really don't have a

10:46

lot on her murder because at the time

10:48

she wasn't at all connected to

10:50

what we knew as the Colonial Parkway murders.

10:53

I'm just now starting to crawl through some

10:55

of this. She was last seen at a

10:57

club called the Zodiac Club and was found

10:59

murdered as a result of that. The

11:02

distance we're talking about is always interesting

11:04

because people when they look at a

11:06

map go, oh that seems so far,

11:08

but all of the Colonial Parkway murders

11:11

are within 20 minutes of each

11:13

other depending on which roads you're on and how

11:15

you get there. You're

11:17

really only talking a 20-minute

11:19

drive from where she disappeared

11:22

to the Colonial Parkway and

11:24

then probably only about a

11:26

10-minute drive to Ragged Island

11:28

where David and Robin were

11:30

killed. These aren't

11:32

huge distances that have to be

11:35

covered. One set of

11:37

the murders took place in New Kent County

11:40

which is about a 15-minute

11:42

drive by But

11:44

again, on a map it

11:46

can look like they're kind of spread apart and

11:49

a lot of people have said over the years,

11:51

well, they're not connected because of all this distance.

11:54

You look at the distances Ted Bunny

11:56

operated under when he committed his crimes,

11:58

etc. These are relatively

12:00

close and the fact is the FBI

12:03

profilers and the Virginia State Police

12:06

Profilers have said on the

12:08

record and they have stated for the

12:11

press as well as for, in my

12:13

interviews, that these crimes are connected. They

12:16

definitely are linked and to me

12:18

I think that's important. I

12:20

think that the fact that they

12:22

were able to solve two through

12:24

DNA testing doesn't mean that the

12:26

others aren't connected to this person.

12:28

It just means they don't have

12:31

the forensic evidence to tie them

12:33

down. You're talking the early 1980s

12:35

DNA technology wasn't being used to

12:37

solve crimes. So the

12:39

fact that we had any was great.

12:41

It was great news. You write about

12:44

that and that they don't have enough

12:46

evidence at this time and so you

12:48

stress that but it's very interesting the

12:50

law enforcement tip line asking for the

12:52

public's help in light of this information

12:55

coming out and they state that we

12:57

recognize relationships and loyalties change over time

12:59

as do people and their perspectives. There

13:01

are occasions where people who may have

13:03

had knowledge of an incident didn't feel

13:05

comfortable coming forward with the information in

13:07

the past but we would want them

13:09

to know that it's not too late

13:11

for them to come forward and so

13:13

they described the vehicle and they also

13:15

say that he also drove a white

13:17

pickup truck, a van and a silver

13:20

1989 Ford 150 and he had a

13:23

commercial boat, fishing boat called the Demi

13:25

Wade and of course all of these

13:28

photos you have on the Wild Blue

13:30

Press website as well accompanying

13:32

your description of new developments in

13:34

this case. It's very interesting too

13:36

that they asked for anyone

13:39

who had worked with him in the

13:41

oyster business, anybody had worked with him

13:43

in the landscaping business, anybody that docked

13:45

near him at the marina. Virtually anybody

13:48

that had any contact with him at

13:50

all was encouraged to come forward and

13:52

speak to the police. Well I think

13:54

it's important you gotta remember in two

13:56

of these cases Cassandra Haley and Keith

13:59

Call, their bodies were never recovered. We

14:01

don't know what happened to them. Their car

14:03

was found on the Colonial Parkway with their

14:05

clothes in it in April. The park rangers

14:07

at the time tried to perpetuate a story

14:09

that they thought they had gone skinny dipping.

14:12

And trust me, I live in Virginia. You

14:14

don't want to go skinny dipping in the

14:16

York River in April. It's cold. It's real

14:18

cold. You know, they were, I think

14:20

that's where their car was deposited, was

14:23

on the Colonial Parkway murder. Less than

14:25

a mile from where the first

14:27

victims were killed. The

14:29

Colonial Parkway, I might add, they

14:31

were intercepted as they left a

14:34

party at the University Square Apartments

14:36

in Newport News area.

14:39

And Keith was going to

14:41

be taking Cassandra home. And

14:43

I think it's important that they look not just

14:45

at the people that are connected to him, because

14:47

they may have information about, gee, it was weird

14:50

that he went out on the boat the day

14:52

after Colin Haley disappeared. He went

14:54

out fishing and that wasn't like him.

14:56

Maybe that's what they're looking for. You

14:58

know, since the bodies have never been

15:00

found. I also think it's

15:02

important to look at all the people that were

15:04

at the party that night where Keith and Cassandra

15:06

were. Did anyone at

15:09

the party see this person there?

15:11

Did they see him in the parking

15:13

lot of the party? Did they see

15:15

his truck anywhere

15:18

in that vicinity? Because

15:21

we know that they were intercepted

15:23

before he got Cassandra home, which

15:25

was only a 10 or 15

15:27

minute drive away at most. Somewhere

15:29

between that party and her house

15:31

is where they engaged whoever killed

15:34

them. And now that you

15:36

have picture of the person, now that

15:38

you have a picture of

15:40

the trucks and vehicles that

15:42

he drove, now that you have

15:44

that information, it really does

15:46

help you because it may trigger some memories

15:48

of people who go, oh my God, I

15:51

saw that guy that night at the party

15:53

where he was talking to them in the

15:55

parking lot. I didn't even think about it

15:57

until I saw that picture. So I think

16:00

think you're going to see is

16:02

a surge now of what I

16:04

would call circumstantial evidence that

16:06

comes forward. It's not forensic but I think

16:08

you're going to get people that say, yeah,

16:10

this is what he may have told me

16:13

when he was drunk or this

16:15

is what I saw that

16:17

night or a different night. We

16:20

know this guy was a hunter as well

16:22

and where the last two victims,

16:24

Howard Phelps were found was a

16:26

turkey hunting area. They were found

16:29

by hunters six weeks after they

16:31

disappeared in New Kent County

16:34

at the rest area. So putting that

16:36

vehicle out there and putting his picture

16:38

out there is bound to trigger some

16:40

memories of people. And I'm

16:42

hoping that the FBI and the Virginia State

16:45

Police are going back to

16:47

the people who own that property and saying,

16:49

you had a hunting club that operated

16:51

in this property, was this guy ever on

16:54

that property? Did he have familiarity with it?

16:56

Did he know that area? Did he

16:58

hunt there? Things along those lines.

17:00

And I think that's what the

17:02

FBI and Virginia State Police I

17:05

would hope are looking for at

17:07

this point are ways to connect

17:09

him to those crimes and perhaps

17:12

other crimes that we've never associated

17:14

with the Colonial Parkway murders. Do

17:16

you know how he was linked

17:19

DNA wise to the

17:21

rape and murder of Robin Edwards

17:23

and Teresa Lynn Howell? Was it

17:25

through that DNA and the sperm

17:27

collected at that time? Yes, I

17:30

did talk with a retired Virginia

17:32

State Police officer who worked in

17:34

both that case in Ragged Island

17:36

as well as the Fel Flower

17:38

case up in New Kent. And

17:41

I spoke with him about it. I said,

17:43

you either had to have gotten the DNA

17:45

from Robin Edwards, who we

17:48

knew was sexually assaulted that night,

17:50

or had had intercourse that night.

17:52

We didn't know with who. So

17:55

it could have been with David Knott,

17:57

we don't know. But I said, you

17:59

either had to have gotten it there or would

18:01

have had, you'd have to use like

18:04

MVAC or some other technique to

18:06

extract it from their clothing. Now

18:08

the vehicle was very poorly handled.

18:11

They didn't think that these guys were dead.

18:13

So they towed it to his father's yard.

18:16

And it wasn't until his father was

18:18

present when they found the bodies that

18:20

they went out and started fingerprinting the

18:22

car. And I even talked to Andy

18:24

Parks, who was one of the journalists

18:26

who's been covering the Colonial Parkway mirrors.

18:28

And he goes, I feel terrible. He

18:30

said, I sat in David's truck when

18:32

I did my piece. And I said,

18:34

well, you left trace DNA evidence.

18:36

That's how poorly the crime scene

18:38

was handled. But the

18:41

general belief is that it was recovered

18:43

from a sperm sample that

18:45

was left in Robin

18:47

Edwards and that somehow that

18:50

has been protected and maintained

18:52

all this time. At least that

18:54

was what I had gathered. They

18:56

got DNA sample from him. This

18:59

guy who did this, this

19:02

Alan Wade Wilmer Sr.,

19:04

he never committed a felony. So they never

19:06

had a DNA sample from him in

19:09

their database. But when

19:11

he died, his body lay there

19:13

for a very long period of

19:15

time before it was discovered. And

19:17

they took DNA as part of

19:19

the identification process to identify the

19:21

body. Once they had that sample,

19:23

they had something to compare against.

19:25

Very, very interesting. Before we

19:27

talk about David Nobling and

19:30

Robin Edwards and their murder

19:32

and how the police conducted

19:34

that investigation, but more importantly,

19:36

let's talk about just briefly

19:38

about how in what way

19:40

all of these cases are connected.

19:43

The initial thing that you look at

19:45

is with all the Colonial Parkway murders,

19:47

when they're committed, they're always couples. And

19:50

they're not necessarily romantic couples.

19:52

They're just people that are together

19:54

that are killed. So

19:57

right off the bat, that's an abnormal. to

20:00

have people killed in

20:02

couples in a very tight geographic

20:05

area. So that stood out. And

20:08

as we started digging into this, and I

20:10

never forget, I was talking with the

20:13

profiler who did this for

20:16

Virginia State Police. And we

20:18

started looking at the case of Robin Edwards

20:20

and David Nobling. The keys were left in

20:22

the car, okay? And

20:25

the radio was on, the door was

20:27

ajar. It was clearly someone

20:29

had left those keys there and was

20:31

drawing attention to the vehicle in hopes

20:33

that someone would steal the vehicle, further

20:35

making it difficult for the police to

20:37

investigate. You know, your first inclination would

20:40

be, hey, you stole this truck, you

20:42

must have killed them. We also see

20:44

the exact same thing, though, in the

20:46

case of Carl Haley. The keys are

20:48

left in the vehicle. And in that

20:50

case, the door was left to jar

20:52

so the interior light was on so

20:54

that people would see it. Then

20:57

you get to Phelps-Lauer,

20:59

which is out on

21:01

I-64. Vehicles left the exit ramp

21:04

from the rest area with a roach

21:06

clip hanging on the window. Keys

21:08

clearly left insight in the car. And I

21:10

went back to Larry McMahon, the kid who

21:13

had done the profiling for the Virginia State

21:15

Police, and I said, you know, we've looked

21:17

at this. And in three

21:19

of the case, latter three cases, every

21:22

one of them, the vehicle was left with

21:24

keys and the ignition, almost like they're kind

21:26

of trying to draw attention to the vehicle.

21:30

Someone would steal it, and he goes, that's your finger.

21:32

He goes, that was something we recognized

21:34

that this killer was doing with

21:36

the last three pairs of crimes.

21:39

He did not do this with the

21:41

very first pair, but he did it

21:44

each time. It didn't work. But that

21:46

was part of what they had. And

21:48

I thought that was very interesting because

21:50

I think that's a telling point. A

21:52

lot of people go, well, you know, just because they

21:55

were killed as couples doesn't mean that much. I got

21:57

to be honest with you. That doesn't happen to great

21:59

people. The typically it's it's way

22:01

off the board and I'm talking. I

22:03

talked with one officer, checked in by

22:05

cab and it just yelled you Have

22:08

To Go To Italy for this to

22:10

pop up again where you have a

22:12

series of crimes were someone's doing couples

22:14

so is a rarity. They think

22:16

between that and the staging of

22:19

the vehicles for theft, you've got

22:21

a pre strong late to the

22:23

whole is, So it's interesting too

22:25

because there are. Much. Different

22:27

ways. Methods of killing in these

22:29

double sets. In these two sets

22:31

of murders that they could see

22:33

and despite that things like cheese

22:36

in the car again you say

22:38

that are super rare. Coupled with

22:40

the idea that couples are rare

22:42

you have able to overcome the

22:44

notion and I'm surprised in the

22:46

and that year that A wouldn't

22:48

be dismissed because there was no

22:50

common method of murder. Well. We

22:53

know serial killers try to refine.

22:55

What they did the first pair

22:57

murders you had strangulation and you

22:59

had a near decapitation of one

23:01

of the victims with very sharp.

23:04

Beak, the killer was trying to refine what

23:06

they were doing. You're assuming that it's a

23:08

single person the did the killing and I'm.

23:11

Wide. Open to the concept that it

23:13

could be a pair, but right now I

23:16

tend to focus on one person they had

23:18

just had a gun in order to keep

23:20

control or young guns a great way to

23:22

maintain control. we don't know. For sure

23:24

how some flour? Died other than

23:26

that, there was a knack for

23:29

young and some bones that indicated

23:31

and nice was used, we do

23:33

know that a gun was used.

23:35

The. Knob Lane. Edward The Murder. We

23:37

have no idea what happened with

23:39

calculators. We'd never have gotten bodies

23:41

and we never knew where the

23:43

crime scene actually was. We know

23:45

where the vehicles last so you

23:47

do have young guns and knives

23:49

and I have a feeling this

23:52

this killer probably had a kit

23:54

with him to commit these crimes.

23:56

Yeah bro. Or had used

23:58

handcuffs. We know that here. Cops

24:00

were recovered and Wilmers the

24:02

search Wilmers place. He. Had

24:04

the means of controlling his victims

24:06

any. Also shed the method for

24:09

being able to kill them. That

24:11

and enact is a gun on

24:13

a nice the concept. It's always

24:15

the same way. I think the

24:17

killer started to recreate the emotional

24:19

experience of killing people in doing

24:21

this. I think he definitely got

24:24

his rocks off doing that. We.

24:26

Know from his confrontations and parkway to

24:28

he approached a couple for example where

24:30

the young man have long hair. he

24:32

saw that couple making out be wrapped

24:35

on on the window and said hey

24:37

when you ladies up to they turned

24:39

and saw him and when he saw

24:41

was a guy in a girl he

24:43

he took off by. We know that

24:45

he was the kind of person that

24:47

was out sparking couples. That's part of

24:50

what he did. So weather is working

24:52

alone in that I don't Now I'm

24:54

sure the F B I is taking.

24:56

A very close look at his brother

24:58

and other friends that may have best

25:00

are seeded with him or employees iba

25:03

the ipod. It's obvious just reading a

25:05

special kind of evil again that the

25:07

brother would be looked at very hard

25:09

as we had already indicated some of

25:11

those things that that would just stick

25:13

right out. And especially because they

25:16

f b I was certain they were

25:18

certain that it was two people involve

25:20

an inside. So much so. That

25:22

when they had that Waterman profile, it

25:25

was to Waterman and they were looking

25:27

for a pair that was looking suspicious

25:29

or they. It was definitely an interesting.

25:32

Trip. Down memory lane and the argument

25:34

has been going on with law enforcement

25:36

for years. Whether it's one killer or

25:38

two killers, my daughter and I am

25:40

as author and pro author and necessary

25:43

A we struggle with that concept. Victoria

25:45

my daughter firmly believes it was two

25:47

people that did it. I still am

25:49

in the camp that I think one

25:51

person dead it. It's very hard for

25:53

two people to do it and managed

25:55

to keep it a secret all these

25:57

years. Yes, That. is as as an

25:59

opportunity hear these messages. With

26:03

Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky

26:05

just about anywhere. Dearly beloved, we

26:07

are gathered here today to... Has anyone

26:09

seen the bride and groom? Sorry,

26:11

sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the

26:14

limo and we lost track of time. No,

26:16

Lucky Land Casino, with cash prizes that add

26:18

up quicker than a guest registry. In

26:21

that case, I pronounce you lucky. Play

26:24

for free at luckylandslots.com. Daily

26:26

bonuses are waiting. No purchase necessary. Boydware prohibited

26:28

by law. 18 plus. Terms

26:30

and conditions apply. See website for details. Now

26:33

let's get to as you do in

26:35

your book talking about the murders and

26:37

you call it the second and

26:39

so it's the second set of double

26:41

homicide. But the murder of David Nobling

26:43

and Robin Edwards, he was 20 years

26:45

old and she was 14 and

26:48

the remains were found September 23rd, 1987 and he disappeared September

26:50

20th. Tell

26:54

us a little bit about this extraordinary

26:56

case and these two people. You know

26:59

it is an interesting case and people

27:01

have reacted to the ages of

27:03

the people involved but Robin Edwards

27:05

was, she was a very adventuresome

27:07

young girl and had spent a

27:09

lot, she had run away several

27:12

times. She was a tough character

27:14

and she was really trying to get her

27:16

life kind of pulled together. She went out

27:18

on a date with David

27:20

Nobling's cousin and he drove them

27:22

and chapped around them basically. Somewhere

27:25

along the way on that date, he

27:27

and Robin made plans to connect later that

27:29

night on the 20th. They

27:32

did. David pulled up to

27:34

the house, Robin climbed out a window

27:36

apparently and they went out

27:38

somewhere. We know they went to

27:40

a fast food place and got something to

27:42

eat. At least there's been some evidence pointing

27:44

to that in terms of witnesses. They went

27:46

to a place called Ragged Island. Now Ragged

27:48

Island is the best way

27:51

to describe it. It's a swamp right at

27:53

the foot of a bridge on the James

27:55

River. It's a wildlife refuge. It's

27:57

a known area for drug dealers,

27:59

homosexuals. and counters and

28:01

stuff going back decades. This

28:04

was, it's a rough area

28:06

and they went there. We don't

28:08

know for sure what happened other than

28:11

the next day, obviously, when

28:13

neither of them are back home, the

28:16

families get concerned and the police

28:18

do find David's truck there. Then in

28:20

the truck are articles of clothing from

28:23

both of them. The

28:25

truck has had the ignition

28:27

turned to accessories. And was

28:29

playing the stereo system. So

28:31

it was there, as I

28:34

said before, trying to attract attention

28:36

to it. What's interesting is in

28:39

talking with Michael Mablang, who's David's

28:41

brother, he said, David had wired

28:43

the electrical system so that you could play

28:46

the radio without turning the

28:48

keys to accessories. And

28:50

I thought that was important because it

28:52

tells you that it was the killer

28:54

who staged the vehicle. It wasn't that

28:56

David and Robin were in that vehicle

28:58

had taken off their clothes, et cetera.

29:00

And that's what had led to their

29:02

demise. It was the killer

29:04

had positioned the car and David

29:06

Mablang always backed his truck up

29:09

into a parking spot. This was pulled straight in

29:12

and he never would have had to turn the keys

29:14

to accessories because he could have just

29:16

turned on his radio and played

29:18

it. They began, at first it

29:20

was, gee, we got missing, two

29:22

young missing people here. And the

29:24

search was not done well. The

29:26

Isle of Way Sheriff's Department did

29:28

not do an exhaustive search to

29:30

the point where David's father actually

29:32

went down and actually strapped on

29:34

waiters and was doing the search

29:36

with the police because he was

29:38

getting so frustrated that they weren't

29:40

doing it. They towed

29:43

the truck to David's father's

29:45

front yard. So

29:47

the crime scene wasn't even handled well. And

29:50

as they're searching, they found David, he

29:53

had been shot in the shoulder and

29:55

in the back of the head. And

29:57

they found a short distance away Robin's

29:59

body. It had been sexually

30:01

assaulted or it had sex, but she

30:03

as well had been shot. So when

30:06

they realized that, then they went back

30:08

to the knobbling house and started trying

30:10

to lift fingerprints off the truck, which

30:12

at this point was just crazy for

30:14

them to do, given how

30:17

many people had mismanagement. And as I said,

30:19

even Andy Fox said

30:21

he was in that vehicle. So

30:24

it was poorly handled. The families found

30:26

out on the evening news because there

30:28

was live coverage when they found the

30:31

body. The helicopters came in and started

30:33

filming it for the evening news. So

30:35

the police didn't even inform the families

30:37

at that point that it just happened.

30:40

It's a very sad set of circumstances,

30:42

how they died. To

30:44

me, I've always pictured that David probably

30:46

put up a fight and at some

30:49

point tried to get some distance between

30:51

him and whoever was, in this case

30:53

Wilmer, was there. He tried to get

30:55

some distance and got shot in the

30:57

shoulder and went down. And

30:59

that's when Wilmer walked up and

31:01

had to have shot him execution

31:04

style. You're right about that the

31:06

truck was staged, everyone believed, with

31:08

both doors open and with

31:10

the radio blasting. Now, what was

31:12

the police theory? What did they

31:15

put forth that had happened in their minds?

31:17

They didn't. There wasn't

31:19

a lot that the police

31:21

initially had put forward. The

31:23

investigation made this look like

31:25

it was a drug deal gone bad. And

31:28

I interviewed Danny Platt about this. They

31:30

were convinced that Robin had

31:32

spurred a drug dealer at some point

31:35

and that they were at Ragged

31:37

Island probably to obtain drugs of

31:39

some sort. And this

31:41

guy decided to extract revenge for Robin

31:44

standing him up. And the focus had

31:46

really been, and I'm talking

31:48

for years, had been focused along that

31:50

line. At the time, they weren't even

31:52

connected to the Columbia Parkway merch. We'd

31:55

only had one pair of murders to

31:57

that. So police

31:59

didn't realize. they were dealing with

32:01

a serial killer. They

32:03

saw these as very independent cases.

32:06

One was being handled by the FBI

32:09

because it took place in the National Park, which

32:11

were the first murders. This one was

32:14

being held by the Virginia State Police.

32:16

It wasn't until the next pair of

32:18

murders, which was called Haley, were their

32:20

disappearance actually. But once that happened, you

32:23

start realizing you're dealing with somebody who

32:25

may be responsible for these murders, one

32:27

person or two people. Let's talk about

32:30

April 1988, as you write. Richard

32:33

Keith Call, they referred to him

32:35

as Keith, and Cassandra Haley Glouchester

32:38

County remains on unrecovered, as you

32:40

mentioned. Tell us about how they

32:42

came to be together that fateful

32:44

night. You know, everything

32:47

turns on the wheel of fate.

32:49

And, you know, this was just

32:51

quite literally, Keith had a longtime

32:53

girlfriend and they had a great

32:55

relationship, but they were taking a

32:58

break. She was off to college and

33:00

Keith was staying local, going to what's

33:02

now Christopher Newport, and was attending

33:05

school there, and they were on a break. He

33:07

asked Cassandra Haley, a fellow student, they wanted

33:09

to go to a party. She

33:12

had just broken up with her

33:14

boyfriend. They weren't romantically attached at

33:16

all. They went to this party

33:18

at University Square Apartments, which is

33:20

right outside the Christopher Newport campus

33:22

at this time. They were there

33:24

until around one o'clock. They didn't

33:26

even really sit together. It's

33:28

not like they were kissy face with each other.

33:30

Keith spent most of his time talking to a

33:32

friend of his girlfriend, saying he wanted to get

33:34

back with her. And Cassandra

33:37

was spending her time having a

33:39

very similar conversation about her boyfriend.

33:42

So they weren't, there was nothing romantic

33:44

about their interaction. Keith finally being a

33:46

gentleman said, yeah, I'm gonna take you

33:48

home. They left the party, you know,

33:50

depending on various versions, no one ever

33:52

is looking at a clock during these

33:55

types of things. So around one in

33:57

the morning, they got it. They left

33:59

Virginia Square. apartments for the 10 to

34:02

15 minute drive to Cassandra's house

34:04

and never got there. The next

34:07

morning, Keith's brother actually spotted Keith's

34:09

car on the Colonial Parkway. His father

34:11

drove by, saw it, got out, and

34:13

actually looked and saw all the clothes

34:16

in the car. Their clothes

34:18

were found in the vehicle. The park

34:20

rangers were called. They gathered up, rather

34:22

than, even though this is a mile

34:24

away from where they had this brutal

34:26

murder a year earlier, 18

34:29

months earlier, they gathered up all the

34:31

clothing, took it to the park office,

34:33

started calling the parents, and their theory

34:35

was at the time they had gone

34:37

skinny dipping, which is just ridiculous. When

34:41

they realized they had screwed up, the park

34:43

rangers took the clothing back to

34:45

the car and restaged the

34:48

vehicle. So they contaminated the

34:50

vehicle twice. Keith's car was

34:52

left with the door jar, so the

34:54

interior light was on, keys were available,

34:56

his wallet was there, as

34:58

was Cassandra's checkbook and purse. I mean,

35:01

made no sense. Neither

35:03

one of them liked going to

35:05

the Colonial Parkway. Matter of fact,

35:08

Cassandra really hated it. Even

35:10

if I'm some wild whim

35:12

in your head that they

35:14

may have had decided to have a romantic

35:16

interlude, this would not have been the place

35:18

for them to go. Neither one

35:20

of them. And it was way past,

35:23

they would have had to drive

35:25

by Cassandra's house. Just the whole

35:27

concept that this was some sort

35:29

of a lumber's lane killing just

35:31

doesn't make any sense. They searched

35:33

the York River, which was 15

35:36

feet from where their car was found. They

35:38

did find a dead body, but it was

35:40

actually a sailor who had

35:42

jumped ship further upriver at the

35:45

Navy base there. They did an

35:47

exhaustive search of the river, etc. Never

35:49

found their remains. To this day, their

35:51

remains have never been found. It's just,

35:53

it was a tragedy really what unfolded.

35:55

You write though, that in the book

35:58

there is some, because of father

36:00

does this previous discovery, the park

36:02

rangers, like you say, restaged and

36:04

put things back into the vehicle,

36:06

spooking the father. But the father

36:08

contends that the keys were not

36:10

in the ignition, whereas the park

36:12

ranger that reported and restaged the

36:14

scene states that the keys were

36:16

in the ignition. Yeah, we're never

36:18

going to know what the truth

36:20

is. The park rangers screwed up

36:22

this crime scene. Their first instinct

36:24

should have been to call the

36:26

FBI, especially when you just had

36:28

a pair of murders less than

36:31

a mile from the same

36:33

road in the same park earlier. They

36:35

should have just immediately called the FBI

36:37

and kept everybody away from that crime

36:39

scene. It's interesting as well. Keith's brother

36:42

was driving on the Colonial Parkway that

36:44

night, saw his car, and he actually

36:46

saw a van that was there. And

36:49

that van followed him. It pulled out

36:51

of the area and followed him for

36:53

a ways. But he didn't think anything

36:55

of it. It just wasn't

36:58

the concept that somebody would have just

37:00

killed his brother, just didn't click with him.

37:02

And for all we know, too, the van

37:04

could have been one that Wilmer

37:06

was driving. It could very well have been

37:08

just somebody who pulled into that spot and

37:10

pulled out. There's only one way to go

37:12

on the Parkway. You can either go north

37:14

or you can go south. That's it in

37:16

that area. So we just don't know

37:18

for sure. Now, how does the

37:20

fishermen, the watermen, how

37:22

does this Wilmer guy get under

37:24

surveillance at the Keith Call and

37:27

Cassandra Haley murders? How's it come

37:29

to be? Herb Wells told me

37:31

that they dusted off the profile

37:33

because at this point they're like,

37:35

okay, this is way too coincidental

37:38

in proximity to the Tomastowski murders, just

37:40

less than a mile away. And so

37:43

they said we dug out the profile

37:45

and they started pulling up police reports

37:47

that people had made, incident reports about

37:50

somebody stalking on the Parkway. And

37:53

Wilmer's name came up, not

37:55

so much his name as

37:57

much as his license plate.

38:00

People. Remember. The

38:02

distinctive license plate. Yes,

38:04

So actually one of his radio

38:06

technicians was driving to their headquarters

38:08

that they had set up in

38:10

a motel. And. It's seen

38:12

Wilmers truck driving around. So.

38:15

They knew he was still in the area. So.

38:18

They pull them up and started

38:20

doing very discreet surveillance on him

38:22

and saw that he was spray

38:24

painting the bed of his truck,

38:26

vacuuming out the track and they

38:28

were concerned that he was destroying

38:30

evidence. So they very quickly moved

38:32

to get a search warrant and

38:34

they thought for sure at the

38:36

time they had their guy. Fortunately.

38:39

They. Relied I think too heavily. All.

38:41

Your ass. And they brought

38:43

in wonder top polygraph people. And

38:46

he said no is this guy

38:48

had nothing to do these murders

38:50

to me. It's way too coincidental

38:52

that he was the prime suspect

38:54

and pure of murders that followed.

38:56

Now. Boiling Edwards. we now know she'd

38:59

be added. said she wasn't directly

39:01

involved as Deck can't just be

39:03

a coincidence. To me, this points

39:05

to his involvement there. We just

39:07

don't have the physical evidence to

39:09

prove it at the. Like

39:11

I mentioned to you before this

39:13

interview, it seems been reading all

39:16

these books over the past a

39:18

dozen years that there has been

39:20

an overreliance, especially at that time

39:22

to have a lotta credence to

39:24

what was determined in these polygraph

39:26

test And this one. they brought

39:28

in somebody that had this credibility

39:30

because of all the things that

39:32

he had done in the past.

39:34

However, as I know and you

39:36

know and other people know that

39:38

there was not much accuracy to

39:40

a polygraph test despite. The polygraph

39:43

examiner. And so this overreliance

39:45

on the lie detector or

39:47

the polygraph test clearing a

39:50

suspect has turned in retrospect

39:52

to be a fatal gesture.

39:54

Yeah, we've seen it far

39:57

too many times that. It

39:59

was you. as a way to

40:01

kind of exclude someone more than

40:03

anything else and I think that

40:06

I think that's a misuse of

40:08

the polygraph. It's not like police

40:10

didn't know that these things were

40:12

inaccurate. The court system doesn't allow

40:14

polygraphs as any sort

40:17

of evidence. That's been

40:19

the case for many decades. You know

40:21

I think that their reliance on it

40:23

was a huge mistake. I think they

40:25

needed to press further. They needed to

40:28

really do a more deep dive into

40:30

this guy and try to build up

40:33

where was he at certain points in

40:35

time, who could verify it, you

40:37

know check his alibis, things along those lines.

40:40

I think there was a tendency to just

40:42

immediately go well he passed the poly I

40:44

guess we got the wrong guy. I think

40:46

it was a huge mistake and I think

40:48

Irv Wells in the back of his mind

40:50

probably knew that. I mean in the discussion

40:52

I had with him he just

40:55

seemed like I knew we had the

40:57

guy but we didn't have the guy

40:59

thanks to the poly. Let's use this as an

41:02

opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Okay,

41:06

round two. Name something that's

41:08

not boring. Laundry? Laundry? Ooh,

41:11

a book club. Computer solitaire,

41:13

huh? Ah,

41:16

sorry, we were looking for Chumba

41:18

Casino. That's

41:20

right That's right. chumbacasino.com

41:23

has over a hundred casino-style games. Join today

41:25

and play for free for your chance to

41:27

redeem some serious prizes. prizes.

41:30

chumbacasino.com about Irv and Wells

41:32

and his ideas because

41:39

he was the big proponent of keeping

41:41

these cases tied together as a

41:45

series of serial killings that were

41:47

related and him zeroing in on

41:49

this suspect was very,

41:51

very interesting. Tell us more

41:53

about your interview with Irv

41:55

Wells and talking about Alan

41:58

Wilmer. let

42:00

law enforcement tell me what they think

42:02

because they'll tell you more than anything

42:04

you'll ever ask in terms of a

42:06

question." And Irv volunteered this

42:09

and I found out later that the

42:11

families were aware of the Wilmer's that

42:13

they referred to it as the driveway

42:16

incident because he was seen in his

42:18

driveway cleaning out his truck. They were

42:20

aware of it as well but

42:23

it was fascinating because Irv, he's

42:25

old school FBI, he steps into

42:27

this case and you've got at

42:29

this point he definitely saw

42:31

the link based on the geography

42:33

of a connection to Thomas Dowsky

42:35

and took a lot of foresight

42:38

for him to say let's dust

42:40

off our waterman profile and dive

42:42

back into that. You know he's

42:44

a very thoughtful person. I could

42:46

tell he was very frustrated. Him,

42:48

this case was one of those

42:50

that he said this is one

42:53

I wanted to solve more than any

42:55

other. It's not just to bring some

42:57

resolution to the call and Hailey families

42:59

but to really put an end to

43:01

this and you know he's

43:03

like I failed in some way and it's

43:06

hard for law enforcement to kind of say

43:08

that and he did. He was

43:10

very clear to me about it one-on-one that

43:13

that was he always felt this was one

43:15

of his big disappointments career-wise you know he

43:17

said I had a lot of resources. I

43:19

did everything by the book you know I

43:22

took a look and said let's dust off

43:24

this profile and let's pull up anybody that

43:26

fits it. They had a guy who fit

43:29

it. The guy was suspicious you

43:31

know and but he's like you

43:33

can't arrest somebody because they have

43:35

pornography. You know yeah all serial

43:37

killers have some sort of connection

43:39

to pornography but not all pornographers

43:42

are serial killers you know and

43:44

that was a frustration he had. Felt bad

43:46

for the guy because it's unfortunately passed away

43:49

recently so he didn't get to see this

43:51

kind of resolution and I think it's a

43:53

shame because I think he could have with

43:55

his years of experience actually brought back a

43:57

lot of what they saw and what they

43:59

did. they did beyond the written

44:01

reports. It's very interesting and

44:03

you chronicle it in your book, A Special Kind

44:06

of Evil, is that at least to

44:08

the police credit, they have to follow up every

44:10

lead. And when they have

44:12

a lead in a murder case and

44:15

a series of murders, when people come

44:17

forward and make themselves a suspect, you

44:19

have the story of Ron Little and

44:21

also Samuel Reader. Can you just tell

44:24

us briefly, again, the frustration of the

44:26

police when they have to follow up

44:28

something where a person makes themselves

44:30

a good suspect? Reader

44:33

pops up in the murders

44:35

that were solved a week

44:37

ago, knobbling in Edwards. He

44:40

was a person that hung around

44:42

Ragged Island. He ragged the police

44:44

that he had seen the truck,

44:46

opened the door to the truck

44:48

that night, etc. I don't

44:50

know if that's true or not. And he took

44:52

a pretty close look at Reader. But in the

44:54

end, it was another one where it

44:57

didn't go anywhere. There was no reason

44:59

for him to have killed either one of them. Just

45:01

because you have a creepy guy hanging around

45:04

Ragged Island, I can tell you I've been

45:06

to Ragged Island. It's a creepy place. First

45:08

thing when you pull in is the sign for

45:10

Ragged Island has been with a shotgun

45:12

burst, you know, and it's all riddled

45:14

up. It's a creepy place. So the

45:17

fact that somebody like Reader was there

45:19

and was willing to talk to police

45:21

about it and admitted that he had

45:23

been to the truck and

45:25

checked it out that night, it does

45:27

cloud things up and makes him look

45:30

more like a suspect. In

45:32

the case of Ron Little, I've

45:34

never figured out why people insert

45:36

themselves into a case the way

45:38

he did. I mean, he basically

45:40

went on TV and told people,

45:42

well, I'm the prime suspect in

45:44

the Paul Haley case. His name

45:46

has come up because he was

45:48

associated with a security business along

45:50

with a very crooked

45:52

cop named Steve Blackman whose

45:54

name comes up often from

45:57

tips and etc. from

45:59

readers. Blackman was a crooked

46:01

cop. There was no denying it. And

46:03

he did some pretty nefarious things and

46:06

Ron little hung with him. Ron seemed

46:08

to sever the limelight, got himself

46:10

deported back to New Zealand as

46:13

a result of drawing so much

46:15

attention to himself. But I can't

46:17

figure why someone ever would go,

46:19

gee, you're investigating all these murders.

46:21

I'm going to go on TV

46:23

and tell people I'm the prime

46:25

suspect. It takes a whole lot

46:27

of crazy to do something like

46:29

that. And unfortunately, he did. And

46:32

it forces police to dedicate resources

46:34

to investigating someone who in

46:36

the end, it turns out, didn't have at

46:38

least up to this point, we

46:40

haven't seen any involvement on his

46:43

part with this. You talked about

46:45

that there didn't seem to be

46:47

any motive with a person like

46:49

Simon Wold reader. Well, was there

46:51

any idea, any theory on the

46:53

overall motive of all the killings

46:55

at any time? No,

46:57

really, when I talked to the

46:59

profiler that I spent the most

47:01

time with from Virginia State Police,

47:03

Larry McCann was very worried about

47:05

it. Because he said, look, you

47:07

know, when all is said and

47:09

done, a lot of times they

47:11

have committed a crime and a

47:13

serial killer wants to relive that

47:15

first moment. The first time they

47:17

killed is when they want to

47:19

try to recreate that as much

47:21

as possible. And in various different

47:24

ways. And if you

47:26

look at where these bodies were

47:28

all abandoned, they're all in

47:30

wooded areas, secluded, very

47:33

middle of the night. It's, I

47:35

think, to a certain degree, this

47:38

killer was simply trying to recreate

47:40

what he experienced with the Tom

47:42

Stavsky murders, if those were

47:44

his first murders. And I think

47:46

he was trying to recreate that

47:49

over and over and over again.

47:51

And he picked geographies that fit

47:53

that, and he picked perivictiles each

47:55

time, with the exception, though, of

47:57

we now know that this person

48:00

killed another young lady outside the

48:02

Zodiac Club. So we don't know

48:04

the full extent of the crimes that

48:06

this guy may have been involved with. The

48:09

way I put it to one person, I think we're

48:12

at the beginning of the end. We

48:14

know now a name, and we

48:16

have pictures of vehicles, etc. I'm

48:19

wondering how many other crimes are going to get

48:21

connected to this person over time. How

48:23

much validation was it for you to

48:25

now look at your book in retrospect

48:28

and see that you were very

48:30

adamant that the FBI should have

48:33

pursued the person to fit the

48:35

Waterman profile and not be concerned

48:37

so much with this polygraph result?

48:39

I'd like to say I'm satisfied

48:41

with that. From a writing

48:43

perspective, I probably am. Victoria and

48:45

I have talked about it, and it's like,

48:47

wow, we really were. We did a good job

48:49

in what we did in terms of the accuracy to

48:51

be able to hit that. Yes. We're

48:54

not really going to be satisfied until these

48:56

other crimes are declared closed, that

48:58

they know who did it and can

49:00

pin it on who did it. And if

49:02

it is this guy, I think it's great,

49:05

all in favor of it. But I think

49:07

this does attract a whole new level of

49:09

attention to the Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm

49:12

glad that we were able to accomplish that. I

49:14

think if the book hadn't been printed and

49:17

hadn't stayed out there and been

49:19

consistently a strong seller, it puts

49:21

it in the public's mind over

49:23

and over again. It's easy for

49:25

these cold cases, especially in this

49:28

era of let's defund the police,

49:30

the first thing they cut is

49:32

cold cases. I think this

49:34

keeps it to the forefront, and I

49:36

feel like we did our job in

49:38

that. That's something I am proud of,

49:40

is we haven't just let this die.

49:42

We have made sure that this

49:45

stays out there and stays out

49:47

there for the victims' families, because

49:49

they deserve the closure at this

49:51

point. Yes, absolutely. It's very,

49:54

very interesting to realize that these

49:56

cases were all linked together because

49:58

they were. as you say, one

50:00

of the main reasons because they

50:02

were couples and that's a rarity.

50:04

It's interesting now that Alan Wilmer

50:06

has been definitely implicated in or

50:08

definitely would have been convicted for

50:11

these murders but that Teresa Howell,

50:13

the victim he has just been

50:15

linked to is not part of

50:17

a couple and was a single

50:19

murder. So it would seem now

50:21

that luckily that now they would

50:23

be looking and expanding and looking

50:25

at not only couples but also

50:28

singles. I believe that's the case.

50:30

I've issued FOIA requests to get

50:32

information on these cases. I'm getting

50:34

stonewalled in a couple of areas

50:36

which is actually a good sign

50:38

because it's usually an indication that

50:40

they're keeping the case file open

50:42

because it's being actively worked on

50:45

and I'm trying to take it

50:47

in the positive light that that

50:49

is. It's frustrating. When you come out and

50:51

you say you've closed these cases, you know,

50:54

we know who did it, I want the

50:56

files so that I can go through in

50:58

a little more detail and see how the

51:01

investigation unfolded. I'm not getting those yet but

51:03

I am pursuing it. In your mind, will

51:05

authorities be anxious to

51:08

take circumstantial evidence and then

51:10

say based on our conclusions,

51:12

we think that Wilmer is

51:14

linked to these other murders

51:16

or will they look for

51:18

that more exacting evidence as they

51:20

have announced with the DNA results? I

51:22

don't know. I really can't speak to

51:24

the mindset of this. I do know

51:27

that the FBI when they were present

51:29

at the press conference did not in

51:31

any way, shape or form admit that

51:33

this guy was on their radar back

51:35

in the 80s. I'm

51:37

sure that's embarrassing for them. My

51:40

whole thing is get over it. Don't

51:43

try to protect the FBI. We get it.

51:46

Mistakes were made. Tell us what

51:48

you knew. Be open, honest, forthright.

51:51

Lay it out for people. I worry about

51:53

an agency that tries to protect itself. I

51:55

haven't seen that yet with the Virginia State

51:57

Police but I was a little bit nervous.

51:59

little surprised the FBI. I knew

52:01

it because we had interviewed the

52:05

special agent in charge of Wells.

52:07

It's in the book. It's already

52:09

public information. So just admit it.

52:11

They have been pressed by other members of

52:13

the media and said, you know, was this

52:16

guy on your radar? And they said, yes,

52:18

he was. But you don't go into any

52:20

detail. And I think they need to be

52:22

a little more transparent. I think the families

52:24

expect it and victims definitely

52:26

deserve it. I think that if

52:29

that were to happen, I think

52:31

it would be a pretty good

52:33

spotlight on the efficacy of that

52:36

coveted polygraph examiner

52:38

and polygraph exam in and

52:40

itself. Yeah. I think that

52:42

you'd have a number of people who'd

52:45

say, wait, the polygraph implicated person acts

52:47

and this was the polygraph where, you

52:49

know, clearly he screwed up. I get

52:51

it. Information's already out

52:53

there. I've already put the information

52:55

out there. What does, before I

52:57

let you go, you've discussed this

52:59

case with Victoria Hester, your daughter,

53:01

and co-author of A Special Kind

53:03

of Evil. What's next in terms

53:05

of this case and developments?

53:08

Well, I think right now the

53:11

FBI is gathering new information, probably

53:13

more information than they gathered in years

53:15

because of being able to say these

53:17

two are closed. I'm sure Virginia State

53:20

Police and the FBI are taking a

53:22

new look at everything they have in

53:24

the case files, which they should have

53:26

been doing all along, because this is

53:28

where this guy was. He was hiding

53:31

right in their case files. And

53:33

I think it's great that they're doing

53:35

that. I'm hopeful that they will be

53:37

able to expand that. And I'm hopeful

53:39

that in the next few months we're

53:41

going to hear, look, we don't have

53:44

physical evidence that shows the closure, but

53:46

we now have circumstantial evidence that allows

53:48

us to say that we are convinced

53:50

that this person was responsible for X,

53:52

Y, or Z of these crimes. And

53:54

I think if that happens, I think

53:56

it's going to give the families at

53:58

least some degree of clarity. It's

54:00

been a real up and down

54:03

situation, I'm sure, for the families. I've

54:05

talked to a couple of the family

54:07

members and friends of some of the

54:09

victims, and they're kind of torn because

54:11

they're happy that there's not a trial.

54:13

Wilmer's dead, so there wasn't a trial,

54:15

but they still don't know exactly what

54:18

happened. They don't know what his motivation

54:20

was, but they also aren't being put

54:22

through the ordeal of a trial. So,

54:25

it's a weird balancing act,

54:27

and emotionally, I've had to

54:29

kind of distance myself a little bit from the

54:31

emotional side of it and just look at it

54:33

from a cold calculation side. And that's why I

54:36

reached out to you and to other folks that

54:38

have talked with us about the cases. You

54:40

know, this is an opportunity, and

54:43

we should view it as such. It's

54:45

an opportunity to bring closure to these

54:47

cases, and let's do it. Yeah, and

54:49

thank God for DNA advances in technology,

54:52

absolutely. I want to thank you

54:54

very much, Blaine Pardo, for coming on and talking

54:56

about your extraordinary book, A Special

54:58

Kind of Evil, The Colonial Parkway

55:00

Serial Killings, and all of the

55:02

developments that have happened just recently

55:04

regarding the cases that you cover

55:07

in A Special Kind of Evil, and your

55:09

daughter, Victoria Hester, is the co-author. So thank

55:11

you so much for coming on and talking

55:13

about A Special Kind of Evil, The Colonial

55:16

Parkway Serial Killings. For those that may want

55:18

to find out more information, can you tell

55:20

us where they might go to a website

55:22

or social media? Tell us. You

55:25

know, there's a number of Facebook pages around

55:27

The Colonial Parkway murders. Obviously, I encourage people

55:29

to go there. And obviously, I encourage you

55:31

to pick up the book. It's on amazon.com.

55:34

It's from Wild Blue Press. It's

55:36

called A Special Kind of Evil. Pick it up. It's

55:38

really got a two years' worth of our

55:41

sweat and research into it, and you're really

55:43

going to get as close as you can

55:45

get to crawling through police files at this

55:47

point. Absolutely. Thank

55:49

you so much for this interview, Blaine

55:51

Pardo. Special Kind of Evil,

55:53

The Colonial Parkway Serial Killings. It's been a

55:56

pleasure. Thank you so much, and you have

55:58

a great evening. Thank you, Dan. And

56:00

goodnight. Luckyland

56:02

Casino, asking people what's the

56:04

weirdest place you've gotten lucky? Lucky?

56:07

In line at the deli, I guess? Ah,

56:09

in my dentist's office. More than once, actually.

56:11

Do I have to say? Yes, you do.

56:13

In the car, before my kids' PTA

56:16

meeting. Really? Yes! Excuse me, what's the

56:18

weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I

56:20

never win Intel. Well, there you

56:22

have it. You could get lucky anywhere

56:24

playing at luckylandslots.com. Play for free right

56:26

now. Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary. Fully

56:28

reproduced by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply.

56:31

See website for details. It is Ryan

56:33

here and I have a question for you.

56:35

What do you do when you win? Like

56:37

are you a fist pumper? A woohooer? A

56:39

hand clapper? A high fiver? I kind of

56:42

like to high five but if you want

56:44

to hone in on those winning moves, check

56:46

out Chumba Casino. At chumbacasino.com choose from hundreds

56:48

of social casino style games for your chance

56:50

to redeem serious cash prizes. There are new

56:53

game releases weekly plus free daily bonuses. So

56:55

don't wait. Start having the most fun

56:57

ever at chumbacasino.com. No

56:59

purchase necessary. VGW. Void. We're prohibited by law. See terms and conditions.