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Music.

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Hey everybody and welcome to True Stories of Tinseltown. I have two wonderful guests for you today.

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Their names are David Fantel and Tom Johnson and hello guys.

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Hello. They have been on before. They were on twice before.

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They did a book together, Hollywood Hay Day, a long time ago and so much fun.

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And this is a fun book. It is called, tell us.

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Come On, Get Happy, The Making of Summerstock.

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And it is all behind the scenes stuff on how this got made.

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And as I was asking you, why in the world did you guys pick of all musicals, Summerstock?

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Well, because when you think of Dean Kelly and Judy Garland films,

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we're always thinking of Wizard of Oz, Meet Me in St.

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Louis, Six Stars Born, an American in Paris singing in the rain.

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But really, this has more of a compelling story.

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And I think it's we think it's very historically relevant for,

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you know, film fans of Judy and Gene, because, first of all,

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this is Judy Garland's final film at MDM after 15 years at the studio,

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the only studio she knew. It was a troubled production. Certainly part of the reason was some of Judy's

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issues that she had behind the scenes. But there were other reasons to the delayed production. But the other thing

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that people, if you may not know Summer Sock, it's a hundred and ninety minutes,

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but it has some of the finest musical numbers of any musical.

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They always say there's at least this great quality musical number crammed into

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that hundred and ninety minutes film. You know, I just rewatched it. I know I saw it when I was a kid because my dad

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loved musicals and, you know, I got all my old Hollywood stuff through my father.

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And I rewatched it and I love those songs. They're so good.

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Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we were we we've screened it three times

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with a live audience once in Harmel, Indiana, with Michael Feinstein's Great

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American Songbook Foundation. Once in Chicago at the Music Box and this was last weekend at the St.

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Paul Jewish Community Center with live audiences. And they literally,

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you know, are applauding after most of the musical number.

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They're coming up to us saying, wow, this thing just knocked us off of our feet.

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They just didn't really know about this film. And we get so many thank yous

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for exposing them to this film. Well, one of the things, Grace, that we we sort of did at the very back of the

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book was we we buttonholed a bunch of contemporary performers,

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you know, music, people in the music business, choreographers,

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dancers, even Judy impersonators for their take on this movie 73 years later.

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And everyone loved it.

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All these people, you know, some of them pretty famous, Mikhail Berezhnikov,

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Ben Green, people like that, Mario Cantone from Sex and the City.

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They all said that this was an absolute

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jewel in their memory of those MGM musicals. They loved this movie.

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So it still holds up 77 decades plus later. Isn't that amazing?

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And the print is, I mean, it's in Technicolor. The print is so good.

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And you think how long ago it was. And it's just beautiful.

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Just really looks beautiful and sounds beautiful. And it's a lot of fun.

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Yeah, and part of the reason is, you know, you had a really steady hand directing the film.

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Chuck Walters, who had done with Judy Easterbray two years earlier.

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So he was a great studio director.

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And, you know, he was a big personal friend with Judy going back to 1942.

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And he really knew how to shoot.

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Wrecked her, especially when she was going through some difficult times.

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And he really helped get her across the finish line, as did,

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of course, Gene Kelly and the fabulous supporting actors in that film,

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Marjorie Maine and Eddie Bracken and Gloria DeHaitian, Phil Silvers, people like that.

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They were so good. I love those guys. I love Eddie Bracken. I love them all.

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And I love Phil Silvers. And they had such a nice chemistry together.

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But the whole thing about but the making of it was kind of like,

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Judy, was this her worst?

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Do you think of her not showing up, things like that, her drugs and things like that?

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Well, Tom, I don't think it was her worst considering she lost a lot of prom

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films, including Hand Pitcher Gun and The Barclays of Broadway and Royal Wedding.

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So she started or was taught being all about film.

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And so because of her personal troubles, she could not continue or actually

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be in them. But at least with Summerstock, she got across the finish line if she did the production.

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I would add to that that possibly the pirate a year before Summerstock was made

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was maybe her worst as far as health issues and long, you know, kind of long absences.

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I think she even had to do retakes on the pirate, which she had done.

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That was a second film with Gene Kelly, incidentally. And so she had to go back

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and do retakes on that. And Summerstock, you know, I mean, they got through it.

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It was a lot like Dave said, a long production window.

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But a lot of that had to do with these extra songs that were that were deemed

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needed at the end of the production, like three or four, you know,

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extra numbers that need to be filmed, the songs that needed to be written and

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orchestrated and rehearsed. And that's really what pushed some of the delays out. It wasn't all at Judy's feet.

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Well, thank heavens that two of those numbers, Grace, were the Get Happy,

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one of her iconic numbers. I love that one. Oh, my God. How can you not get happy when you hear that song? I just love that song.

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It's on the short list of any Garland fans of all the film numbers he did.

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And then on top of that, so they knew they needed a showstopper for Judy,

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and they put in Get Happy, thankfully.

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And that wasn't even the last thing that was filmed. The last thing that was

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filmed was Gene Kelly's solo dance with a squeaky board and old newspaper.

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And Gene, you know, most people won't realize this, Gene has said publicly a

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number of times that that's his favorite all-time solo dance routine.

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And where is it? It's in Summerstock.

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You know what I noticed big time was I love so much his rolled jeans or his

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rolled pants with his white socks. And that's where Michael Jackson got those,

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that whole idea, you know, the loafers, the white socks.

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And it just really shows those tootsies off when he's boogieing down on the

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floor, our jean, you know, and it's such a great look. And he was cute.

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My God, he was a cutie.

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Oh, you know, a lot of people think he really never looks better than in Summer Stock.

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And, you know, if you know Gene, he came from the stage and Broadway.

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You know, at the retirement, Gene could sort of eat the scenery a little hammy.

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But because of his love and authenticity for Judy, I think he comes across with

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a really warm performance. He did. And it's cute. And they had a really nice chemistry.

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And I think you're right, because I've seen Gene in a lot of films and straight acting.

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Which he was very good as well, doing straight acting without musicals.

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But he was really, I'm just looking at him, those twinkly eyes, he's so cute.

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That's all I thought, along with being talented, that muck.

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I mean, what I mean, too, is that, you know, this came at a period in his career

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that he sort of shoehorned this movie in between his first directorial effort,

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co-direction with Stanley Donner, which was on the town, the movie preceding Summerstock,

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which was sort of a groundbreaker. And then the next two films after Summerstock were an American in Paris and Singing in the Rain.

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So he was at the very pinnacle of his power and, you know, his box office and everything.

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Right. Right. And Summerstock, you know, he said he would spend a year if that's

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what it took to get Judy through this film. He was not going to abandon her.

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He was going to be there as a support for her, even though he and really pretty

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much everyone else in the cast, including Judy and the director of the film.

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Film, Chuck Walters, didn't really want to do it.

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They thought that the screenplay was a little bit trite and kind of a throwback

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to the Judy and Mickey Rooney.

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Let's put on a show. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminded me of that, but not really, you know,

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because it's much more sophisticated. It's like, come on, gang. And it's really a cute film.

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And there's some clever stuff in it. And I think, as you mentioned,

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I mean, again, when we've done these live screenings.

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I mean, it's almost like, from a comedic standpoint, Eddie Bracken is the neurotic...

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Yeah, I think a lot of people feel the show.

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He's great. I love him. You guys know him, too. Miracle of Morgan Creek? Is that it? Yeah, sure.

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He was great. He really was. They were all so good, but he's just, to me, he's adorable.

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Beast in my heart. I think he's really cute. The thing about Eddie Bracken in

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this movie, and really Hail the Conquering Hero, and...

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All of that kind of stuff that he did in Miracle Morgan's Creek that he did

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for Preston Sturgis in the early 40s.

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He was playing a character in this, kind of a one that he had played in Hail

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the Conquering Hero as a guy that beset with a fever, sort of the nerdy guy, you know. Yeah.

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And that's where he milked his laughs, was really out of that character.

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Whereas, you know, not to downgrade Phil Silvers, but he was just doing Phil

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Stover's shtick. Yeah, exactly. He was shtick. Shtick a kawazoo.

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But that jakes a little bit. It does. Eddie Bracken's forever.

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And I like Phil Silvers, don't get me wrong. I thought he was very good in this

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as well. And I thought they were a really nice cast. I love Marjorie Payne.

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Gloria DeHaven as a spoiled brat sister. I mean, everybody's there at 6 a.m.,

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you know, hoeing the fields. It's a farm, everybody, if you don't know what it is. and she's in her bed getting breakfast in bed.

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I'm like, get up. Yes, get up, will you?

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You know, the other thing is, you know, when we talked about a throwback to

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the put on a show in the barn, I think one of the big changes or the change

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is that Judy Garland's character of Bane plays a very strong, independent woman,

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almost like an entrepreneur business person,

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which I don't think was really the Judy character in those Mickey Rooney films.

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No, she was a cute neighborhood girl.

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She wasn't this strong. And she's cute.

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Another thing with that, which I was noticing, they said she put on,

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in between her staying away, that she put on a few pounds here and there.

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And I did notice it in the consistency. But, you know, she was not fat.

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She's short. She was 4'11". You put on five pounds, it shows.

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Whereas if you're taller, it doesn't show as much. She was teeny.

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And I thought she looked really pretty. I think Judy's stunning in her own way.

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You know, she wanted to be a glamour puss. Didn't Phil Silver said she would

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have given it all up, her talent, this, that, just to be this glorious,

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glamorous Hollywood, you know, hubba hubba. Atlanta Turner type.

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Right. Atlanta Turner. Who she worked with in Ziegfeld Girls.

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Yes, exactly. And Gene, he is a task. You guys interviewed Gene.

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Yeah, we were at his home twice. Yeah. What'd you think of him?

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Oh, I mean, he was wonderful. And our first meeting with Gene at his home in 1978,

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when we were 18 years old, and our other meeting with Fred Astaire,

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I mean, they not only solidified our love affair with classic films and musicals,

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but they were so universally revered that those initial meetings with Astaire

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and Kelly just opened up the floodgate for literally hundreds of interviews

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that followed. followed. I know. I was telling someone today, I said, yeah, they said,

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oh, Fred, you talked to Fred? You talked to Fred? Okay, we'll do it. It was like the cascade of you talk to

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Fred's or Gene's or whatever, because you talked to some amazing guys and women.

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Yeah, Fred was the golden ticket, the Willy Wonka golden ticket.

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We had a Polaroid snapshot taken with him,

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and that was really gained us entree for the

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next 30 years to do all these old legends

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because they based they said exactly what you said especially cagney

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he said well if fred saw you then i'll see you so i mean you know it went fred

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opened the doors i mean gene too but you know we had the physical visual proof

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of uh you know interviewing a stare with that photo and we sent that to every

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interview of you. Good for you. And you got it.

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I'm going to tell you guys, I'm going to link you up to all of their stuff.

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But back to this book, and adorable. They were kids, 18.

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Oh my God, got to read it. Funny, funny, funny.

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So Gene is a taskmaster. And I know, I think you said to me,

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David, that it's worth it, because look what the product is,

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because he can be really mean. And, you know, kind of, a lot of people didn't like him because of the way he dealt with them.

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Well, yeah, we sort of come to the conclusion. I mean, obviously,

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he was wonderful and warm when we met him.

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But, you know, I think that's a bit overblown because we always say making art is like making sausage.

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It's not always pretty, but the end result hopefully is pretty tasty.

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And, you know, when you say taskmaster, I don't think that might be a little harsh.

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I mean, and the term perfectionist maybe in 2023 is a negative,

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but I don't think he's creating art. He didn't expect anything from anyone

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he worked with that he didn't expect from himself

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and you know when you you know the hollywood lore

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about you know working debbie reynolds to her feast i mean

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the reality is on the second side of that judy i mean judy debbie always said

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that she owes her entire career to v kelly and so the fact that he was a perfectionist

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is a positive and we're We're reaping the benefits through his films to this day.

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I don't think being a perfectionist is negative today, but it's just different.

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It's sort of like, you know, you can't really yell at it. You can't be what you are.

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They were in those days. That's why I love the old films. But yeah, they do. They do.

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But and he's great. And if you were those highwaters and wasn't a musical musical.

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He would have been at Orville. But it's such a cutie went to therapy. She went to a sanitarium prior,

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right? Yeah, it wasn't a sanitarium.

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She was at a renowned hospital on two different states in 1949 in Boston.

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And she was essentially there to decrease her dependence on prescription medications

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and get her sleep pattern in order. And so she had to.

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So I went to the sanitarium. And in order to do that, or when they felt that

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they had those things under control, the doctors told MZM that they thought

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she was ready to return to Hollywood and start rehearsals on summer's time.

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But that didn't really last. And I know everybody loved her,

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from what I read. Everybody really loved her. She was kind.

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She was fun. she'd have parties for when

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crew were done but then why do

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you think someone doesn't show up like that what was

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she thinking was that she was groggy she was well tom why don't you talk about

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the contrast between louis d mayor and just sort of benevolence for these issues

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versus his successor tori sherry yeah well the thing was is that when summer

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stock was being filmed in In 1949, 1950.

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The studio system, you know, which all of them were contracted to,

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which, you know, stemmed back to the 1920s, which Louis V. Mayer almost founded that whole system.

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It was sort of coming to an end. It was a few years out. But,

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you know, things weren't great in the industry.

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You know, attendance at theaters had fallen off and TV was getting bigger. So, yeah.

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But Louis B. Mayer loved Judy and really was loyal to her and stood by her.

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In fact, he forgave her some of the debt that MGM paid for, you know,

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during her hospital stays in Boston. I mean, he was very, very sort of paternal. I mean, there were some hiccups with him, too.

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But Dory Sherry was coming in as head of production.

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He was really going to replace Louis B.

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Mayer right after Summerstock and Mayer left the studio. studio,

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Sherry had no empathy for anyone, you know, who had personal problems and he

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didn't even like musicals. He was not a big fan.

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So he had really no empathy towards Judy.

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He just said, well, she'd better buck up and get with it, you know,

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and that's sort of partly what led to her leaving the studio after,

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you know, Summer Stock was her last film after 15 years at the studio.

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But Mayer, I mean, you know, for all the back and forth that's been written about Louis D.

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Mayer and Judy Garland, some of which she used to say just for Joe,

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you know, to make jokes about it. You know, he was he was pretty paternalistic and ultimately pretty benevolent

17:46

at the end for giving her debts. He said that, you know, when people wanted to fire her right during the production,

17:53

when some of those delays were happening, where she was out sick,

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he said she made the studio a fortune in the good days and we should stick by her.

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We're going to stick with her. So, I mean, that's, you know,

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a tremendous vote of confidence, which Dory Sherry, if he had been in that position,

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he would have ousted her immediately, we think.

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Probably, because if he's like that and he didn't have empathy and I'm sure

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they didn't have a tolerance for her. Right. Right.

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So, with Mayer, though, I have to say, and I'm going to ask you guys if you

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think I'm off there, but didn't he, he was there for Judy when she first started, right?

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Right, yeah, 1935 when she first signed. But didn't he help get the drugs to

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wake her up, to help her lose weight, to do things like that, to put her to sleep?

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Well, you know, again, there's probably greater garland experts that could address

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when the thought started. I mean, I've heard things, you know,

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that it was started by her mother back in the 1930s. I believe mom was a part of it big time. Yeah.

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Yeah. And, you know, again, whether it was Louis B. Mayer or one of his loose tenants.

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Yeah. I mean, Judy's talked about a number of patients when she was working

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with Nikki, how they had to give her give them uppers to get their energy up

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while they were filming. And then they had to give them downers so they can take a few hours of sleep

19:09

so they could start all over again. And so, yeah, these issues started back in the 30s. But then again,

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you know, there's other personal issues that she was confronted with by the

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time of Summerstock, including a marriage on the rocks with Vincent Minnelli.

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He had the care and nurturing and taking a little life of Minnelli, the toddlers.

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But she had a lot of things going on in her life in addition to the drug dependency issue.

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Yeah. And Jean was great. And he was he really was in her corner.

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And I found that very admirable, how he did that.

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And also, Gloria DeHaven absolutely adored Judy. And...

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I don't know how I felt about Glory DeHaven. I liked her, but you know what

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I'm saying? I guess because Judy and Gene kind of overshadow everybody.

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But she was good. She really was good. Don't get me wrong. Yeah,

19:59

she was, you know, she had a nice voice. She was cute and quirky. Adorable, yeah. You know, it's like,

20:03

you know, you can sit there and say, why do some really superstardom and others don't?

20:09

And Glory DeHaven, and we sort of talked about maybe some of the reasons she

20:12

didn't reach that A-listed MVM during the time she was there pretty much throughout the 1940s.

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But she was just, again, one of these stars for a number of reasons,

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never elevated to A-list status.

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But she was a likable, personable, supporting player in films like Summer Stop.

20:30

Well, she was very good. I was reading, was it in your book that it said that

20:35

Gloria got suspended a lot because she turned down a lot of movies?

20:40

Yeah, she got into trouble that way. And she also didn't.

20:45

Louis B. Mayer wasn't thrilled that he married an older ass in a John Payne.

20:50

And so he was never really happy with that union.

20:53

Oh, that was Miracle 34 Street, dude. John Payne.

20:57

Yeah. Yeah. The 20th century Fox leading man. The dreamboat John Payne.

21:02

What what in your research and writing the book surprised you guys the most?

21:08

Tom, do you want to go? Sure. You know, I mean, there weren't a ton of surprises,

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but one of the big, well, two big surprises,

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one of them was that Gene Kelly's solo was the last thing filmed concerning the movie.

21:23

I mean, everyone had, you know, for years and years, it's been written that

21:26

Judy Garland, it all ended with Summerstock after she had left the film.

21:30

And a couple of few weeks later, she was brought back, all trimmed down to do

21:35

Summerstock, to do the Come On, Get Happy number.

21:37

But it was really Gene who did the squeaky board newspaper dance after Get Happy was filmed.

21:46

That was the last thing that was that was completed and that we think that he

21:50

possibly directed himself in that number because by then Chuck Walters was gone.

21:57

He had been he had left the studio or had left the film.

22:01

And, you know, so when Gene came back, you know, we think for all intents and

22:04

purposes, he not only, you know, choreographed and danced in the number,

22:09

he directed himself, too. I thought that was pretty interesting, different. I had never read that or found

22:14

any information about that before. We kind of uncovered it.

22:18

Well, yeah. And, you know, what Tom said, I mean, and Gene saying that A was

22:23

his all-time favorite routine. That surprised me big time, yeah.

22:26

And that he channeled Buster Keaton, the silent comedian.

22:30

But I think that the other thing that sort of surprised me, and it was sort

22:34

of a myth buster, you know, we talk about, and it's sort of popular to talk

22:38

about, that this was looked upon as a reteaming of Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland.

22:44

And, you know, through our research, we found that in the Hollywood Reporter,

22:49

as early as December 1948,

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that's almost a year before the film went in front of the cameras,

22:56

they announced Summerstock as a vehicle for Gene Kelly and Judy Garland.

23:01

And so Gene Kelly was attached to this film from over a year before it hit the cameras.

23:08

And Mickey Rooney was never publicly attached to the film. Good thing.

23:13

I know he's like me. You guys met him, too. You interviewed Mickey.

23:18

Well, yeah. You could say he's another king of embellishment or as R.J.

23:23

Wagner told us, you know, certifiably crazy. I love that. R.J.

23:28

R.J. Oh, aren't you guys tough? Tough. I know. Well, say what?

23:33

Robert Wagner, if you're not in. People call him RJ after meeting him for about four seconds.

23:39

It's just call me RJ. Yeah, he's actually a guy.

23:42

I know. I like him. I wish I could have interviewed him, but I know he's not doing him anymore.

23:48

So that was your surprise. I was surprised that that was his favorite of all.

23:52

Dances, that that's the one he really thought was, because it was great.

23:56

And he, honestly, I love those socks. I love those shoes. I love, he just was really cute.

24:00

And, you know, to keep the energy going, especially when you're delaying,

24:06

delay and delay, and keep positive, well, it's showbiz, you know,

24:11

you got to put that face on. But yeah it's pretty amazing when you

24:16

you put that together with a lot of the stuff that was going on

24:19

behind the scene yeah a lot of people go ahead

24:22

though wonderful about the movie is that

24:25

you know it was made during the golden age of musicals when they were all really

24:29

the dance musical was sort of coming to an end it was maybe five six years before

24:33

the end of the dance musical and the studio system was fracturing and yet you

24:38

had all these you know star talent and then below below the line people, gaffers, grips,

24:44

cameramen, all that, you know, orchestrators that really knew how to put these kind of films together.

24:49

And it's become sort of a lost art. There are people that know how to do these films.

24:55

Rob Marshall, who blurbed the book and really liked it, is one of them.

25:00

But very, very few really know how to make these films.

25:04

It's kind of a lost art. But back then they did.

25:07

And a wonderful thing about the movie, as you said, Grace, was that,

25:10

you know, know, there's all this turmoil, obviously, behind it, which we cover.

25:14

And, you know, this backstory that's pretty dramatic, almost like a Greek tragedy.

25:19

But at the end, at the end of the day, when you see the film, people love it.

25:25

Even today, they come out, they come out with a wonderful feeling.

25:29

And that's due to the professionalism of everyone involved, where,

25:33

you know, all those heartaches and all those problems that they were dealing

25:37

with behind behind the scenes were not going to be shown up on screen.

25:41

You're not going to see any of that. And that was professionalism.

25:45

It was. And it was. I really, you know, honestly, I'm looking at it.

25:48

I mean, how good were they? And how, just so talented.

25:53

Honestly, it just goes, you know, the songwriters, the whole thing.

25:56

They have all the people in it, everybody. You know, the behind the scenes stuff.

26:00

You have little bios of the actors, each of them, Gene, and then, you know.

26:05

Bracken whatever oh I found this interesting that Bob

26:08

Hope didn't want to work with Eddie Bracken because he was too funny

26:11

was that in our book yes yeah yeah

26:16

do you remember that yeah it was in your book it was in this recent book yeah

26:20

okay I know I love that I thought it's funny because I yeah no Bob because Eddie

26:27

was very naturally funny yeah yeah like characters whereas Bob Bob was great Bob was funny, too.

26:35

But Bob did Bob Hope type stuff. Bob was Bob Hope in almost every movie he ever

26:40

made, whereas Eddie, he'd play a character and he'd generate laughs out of the character.

26:46

So I think that that might have intimidated Bob a little bit.

26:50

No, he was fine. The other thing is you take an actor, a great actor from the

26:53

Orson Welles troupe named Ray Collins, who plays his father.

26:57

I mean, Ray Collins isn't going for laughs. laugh, he's playing it 100% straight and serious.

27:03

But by playing it straight and serious, he's very immune to them. He was, and I love him.

27:09

He was in, I'm trying to think, what was he in?

27:13

He was in Citizen Kane. Perry Mason, Judith Payne, Miss Magnificent Ambersons, yeah.

27:20

I have to think about that one about, I didn't know that, but I do remember

27:24

him because I just had like a, they They have it on Paramount+.

27:28

I went through a Perry Mason marathon recently, and I just love him.

27:32

Sergeant Trask or Lieutenant Trask or something like that. He was wonderful.

27:36

The whole cast just kind of gelled. And honestly, the dancing and,

27:42

you know, I got to do this because I don't want to just, I'm not trying to be mean to Judy.

27:47

I love Judy. But this is one thing Gene said, and I have to say,

27:50

what in the world was that about? He went to someone, this is one of the times he went to someone and said that

27:55

she smelled smelled funny. And it wasn't BO. It wasn't because she smelled, smelled.

27:59

But he thought it smelled like formaldehyde.

28:02

Yeah. I'm like that poor woman. Holy heartbreak.

28:06

That was a story where he went to actually went up to Dory Sherry,

28:10

if I recall, and said that.

28:12

And we we weren't the first one to say that.

28:15

That was if you look at Gerald Frank, his Judy biography in the early 1970s,

28:20

he interviewed so many people because they were mostly alive back then.

28:24

And that was in the Gerald Frank transcript of his discussion and his conversation

28:29

with Jane. and so that's directly from Jean on a recording that Gerald Frank did.

28:34

And it was because of some drugs she was taking, right? She was chemicals,

28:39

chemicals, chemicals, chemicals in your body.

28:42

And that's, you know, and I think when you sweat, like if you eat garlic or

28:45

something, it sweats through your pores. Fun fact, I don't know everybody if that's true, but I know that we,

28:50

if you have something really gross, like something like that,

28:53

I think it just comes out. And that's so sad when you think of how talented she was, but I'm so glad she

29:00

had him to help her get through. I didn't really see huge weight gain. I really, I have to say I didn't.

29:05

I was expecting because he made a big brouhaha out of it.

29:09

Well, if anyone, you know, who's a Judy Garland buff, I think if you're being

29:12

honest, you're going to look at her in The Pirate and maybe a few of the other

29:15

films and say that she looked alarmingly thin.

29:18

So most people, when you see Somerset, she looks healthy.

29:22

I thought she looked great. I really did. You know, I could see that she put

29:25

on a couple pounds here and there, But I thought she was beautiful. Her face was great.

29:30

And like I said, the technicolor, the whole thing. She and Jean were just glorious. They were so good.

29:37

And they really had a nice chemistry, very much so.

29:41

And you knew that Judy felt safe with him. And he was in her corner.

29:46

You know, she felt that. And you knew that makes you feel like a million bucks when you have that.

29:51

And everyone was in her corner. And, you know, credit producer Joe Pasternak

29:56

for surrounding her with people she had loyalty to and confidence in and trust.

30:03

And that's you know, and they were kind. They did it.

30:06

There was a story about Eddie Bracken saying that he went to her saying she

30:10

had he had to go back to a Broadway thing and he talked to her about it so he

30:13

could finish his scenes. But you guys say that he said it. But there's nothing that backs that up.

30:18

Right. Right. Well, no, he did say that. He did say that.

30:21

And the point of it was that if Dory Sherry or a studio executive had asked

30:28

Judy to do this, she might have given them the middle finger.

30:30

Yeah. But because because of Eddie Bracken and their friendship,

30:34

whether, you know, it was true or not, or whatever excuse he was making that

30:38

he had to leave the production, she came through with him and said,

30:41

you know, basically, Eddie, you know, you're my friend. And for you, I will be there.

30:45

I think she was a good friend. I mean, she was loyal and everybody said she was fun.

30:51

Gene, he's not an outgoing kind of guy, right?

30:55

He's more local. Well, even his daughter, you know, Gene's daughter,

31:00

who we interviewed, Terry Kelly Novick, said that, you know,

31:04

her dad was always intense, you know, all throughout his entire life.

31:09

And, you know, that was that perfectionism and that drive and that thing,

31:13

you know, that sort of impulse to make everything as good as it can be.

31:17

And, you know, which and but, you know, Eddie Bracken sort of said said to us,

31:22

too, or he said in the interview that, you know, Gene was the admiral of the group.

31:27

And sometimes you got to pull rank a little bit when you're the admiral of the

31:30

group and as he was on Summer Stock.

31:33

And, you know, and so Eddie had nothing but praise for him.

31:36

He said he was always working on his strength, always rehearsing,

31:40

you know, during downtime. I mean, you know, you see, you know, they were trying to make,

31:44

you know, lemonade out of lemons that they thought at the time with the film, you know.

31:49

So there was really more pressure on everyone involved in that than there might

31:54

have been if the script or the co-stars had been a little more healthy.

32:00

So there was that sort of looming in the background the entire time that they

32:04

had to get this thing done, and they had to do it great, which they did.

32:09

And no matter what troubles beset the daily shooting schedule, they had to be overcome.

32:16

So that was the deal. And it came into this really great film.

32:21

And I want to tell everybody, you can watch this on YouTube.

32:23

I got it on YouTube. I rewatched it. So you can find Summer Stock and it looks

32:28

fabulous. You can see it on YouTube as an FYI.

32:31

Also, as far as that goes, they're all together, they're a cohesive group.

32:36

How long did it take for that to actually get in the can to be finished?

32:42

Well, it took about six months. And, you know, when you say that to people today

32:46

and they look at these 50 or 100 million dollar productions that they're doing,

32:50

they're going, OK, six months. That doesn't seem that long.

32:54

But in the studio factory system in which MGM was the king of musical, it was a long period.

33:01

Now, the number of shooting days was in the 40s.

33:04

That wasn't that unusual for shooting days for a musical. But a musical,

33:09

typical musical around that time at MGM might have been 40 shooting days and

33:14

maybe a three or four month shoot.

33:16

This was 40 shooting days and a six month shoot. So, again, by MGM standards, it was a long shoot.

33:23

But, you know, people stretch their heads and say six months doesn't seem like that much.

33:28

I would think six months is really long. What do you mean by filming?

33:31

I mean, just the filming, not the whole. are

33:34

you talking about yeah from the cameras

33:37

rolling to wrapping up production yeah six months

33:40

was considered a long window it does seem

33:44

long and they went over budget but surprisingly not as much as i thought and

33:50

i think it was 10 i mean 40 000 dollars insignificant by studio accounting standards

33:55

yeah and it did it did end up not really breaking even but it did very well

34:01

Well, and critics loved it, I think, didn't they? From what I read.

34:06

We do a long deep dive into studio economics. The studios today are notorious

34:13

for what we call fuzzy math. And we've talked to enough people. We listed a bunch of disavailable data as we could.

34:21

We certainly come to the conclusion that Summerstock did not lose the studio

34:26

any money. In fact, it continues to generate revenues to this day for a sharing

34:31

company that owns an IBM title, that being Warner Brothers.

34:35

The DVDs, things like that, that they go all over the place,

34:38

which gives them a new life, which is great. But isn't it so weird?

34:42

I'm so glad you guys documented, because I want you to come on again and talk

34:46

and kind of do another one for everybody, but the other one, I hope you come on again.

34:50

And you got, how many people really, really get the chance to talk to these

34:54

people? Now they're all dead, basically. I don't know who's alive anymore.

34:58

You talk to Andre Previn, who is a member of the group as well.

35:03

You talk to so many people. What was it, Harold Prince? He said,

35:07

why are you doing Summerstock, right? Hal Prince? Well, Hal Prince, the legendary producer and director of God,

35:13

his wife was Saul Chaplin's daughter.

35:18

And Saul Chaplin was a composer and one of the musical directors on Summerstock.

35:22

So it was through trying to get to Saul Chaplin's daughter that we were able

35:27

to get an email exchange with the legendary Hal Prince.

35:30

And when we described what we were doing, that was sort of his response,

35:36

sort of scratching his head, saying, gosh, that sounds like a sort of schizophrenic project, doesn't it?

35:41

But it was good, you know, because it does have the drama and sort of the tragedy behind the scenes.

35:47

And, you know, we have to give props to everybody because you're right about

35:51

behind the scene people. They don't really get any of the, you know,

35:55

glory, but they work their butts off to get stuff together and get it right for everyone.

36:01

No, by the way. So behind the scene people, bravo to you, because my ex-husband

36:07

was a behind the scenes guy. And, you know, I knew so many of them, you know, because we go to places and

36:12

I meet them and they're so talented and such hard workers and they do deserve

36:17

their props. That is for sure.

36:20

They were fabulous. Fabulous. You guys, from the book, what do you think makes,

36:27

what to you is like the most interesting thing, not the most surprising,

36:32

the most interesting, the best thing you think that you're discussing in the book?

36:36

Your favorite thing? Well, I don't know. I don't particularly have any favorite that I thought.

36:43

It was interesting going through this four-year process to get the book completed.

36:49

And as you said, I think my biggest takeaway is that for 109 minutes,

36:55

it can stand on its own two feet with any of the more well-known MGM musicals

37:00

when it comes to the quantity and quality of the musical numbers.

37:04

Wonderful you. you i love that song so yeah it's

37:08

also really you guys are gonna love the music and i

37:11

know there are so many people because i really don't do shows i

37:14

think i've done one show about musicals one

37:17

in all my my story career my fabulous career no i mean i just one so you guys

37:25

will be another and there are so many people who love the musicals old ones

37:28

what i was gonna say i i got lost and i digressed But we're seeing now on TCM,

37:34

you know, classic films of the 80s.

37:37

Now, these aren't classic films.

37:40

These, you know, there's some really nice ones. But it's so funny how I hope

37:44

they still have TCM and still always show these films.

37:48

You know, I'm totally you're not going to get disagreements from us.

37:52

You know, TCM, when it was founded and started decades ago with Robert Osborne.

37:57

I love him. You know, I miss him. He was my guy. Yeah, he did so much, and the network did so much to expose and

38:05

popularize some of these classic films with a younger generation of audiences.

38:10

So, obviously, TC has been significant, just as That's Entertainment introduced

38:15

a whole new audience to musicals back in 1974.

38:20

Isn't that what got you guys really into the musicals? Yeah,

38:24

it was That's Entertainment, really, a compendium. We used to have a...

38:29

Musical week there were two musical weeks

38:32

on local television in saint paul minnesota and

38:35

one was a stare rogers movies and the other

38:38

was just these usually mgm musicals that that they that you know for five days

38:44

monday through friday they'd have a new musical every uh every day and that's

38:48

where we really i think we first saw summer stock on on you know musical week

38:53

but then the The embarrassment of riches that,

38:55

you know, found out about these

38:57

vis-a-vis that's entertainment really started Dave and I down our road,

39:01

you know, with renting movies to show at nursing homes. Wasn't it called Reels on Wheels?

39:07

R-E-E-L-S? No, Films on Wheels.

39:11

Isn't Reels on Wheels good, though? R-E-E-L-S.

39:15

I could swear it was Reels on Wheels, but you guys are sweet. What adorable kid.

39:21

18 years old, you go to Hollywood. would it's such a

39:24

both books i highly recommend and especially their

39:27

summer stock because there's so much really you know

39:30

really good stuff behind the scenes and you find out

39:33

about each of the people you know all the actors the whole thing and it gives

39:37

you when you watch it like for me you know reading the book and then i watched

39:41

it you really get the appreciation because you know what's going on what really

39:46

what it took to get this to the screen for your book thank you it was And you guys are showing it.

39:53

You did it. I have to ask you, because I'm really curious. Tom,

39:56

you're in California, right? Yeah. And David, where are you, Minnesota?

40:01

Milwaukee. Milwaukee. So how do you get the book written?

40:04

It took you four years. Do you have, like, you talk to each other? Yeah,

40:11

we gather a lot of information and research, literally binders of information,

40:17

including scripts and production notes and interviews and transcripts.

40:22

We literally – and articles and reviews, and we put them into binders.

40:27

And then Tom and I spent a good week together –.

40:31

In person, literally going through every page of all of these binders,

40:35

hundreds of pages where we would take notes and highlight things that we thought would end up in the book.

40:41

And we would work on our outline and the format and the whole process.

40:46

And then we would start writing and, you know, Tom maybe would take the lead

40:50

on something. I would take the lead on something. When it came time to do Zoom interviews or phone interviews,

40:56

most of the time when possible, We double teamed on that.

40:59

So, yeah, it was a collaborative process that isn't really new to us.

41:04

It's really something that we've been doing for decades together.

41:07

You guys are best friends in high school?

41:09

Middle school. How cute. Oh, my God. That's so sweet that you guys are pals.

41:15

You did these. And they're really good books. That's all I can say.

41:18

You know, it's like the movie, you know, you get the book together and it works.

41:24

And I really, really enjoyed it. And I, like I said, I read it,

41:29

watched the movie again. I would recommend you doing that, everybody, if you get the book and watch the movie.

41:35

It's really fun to go, oh, wow, this and I know what happened here. And I know this and this.

41:40

And that's a really great companion to watch the movie with after you read their book.

41:46

It's a goodie and a lot of fun. And that music is fabulous. Judy got canned

41:51

two weeks after it ended, right? It was September of 1950. 1950, yeah. And, you know, you use the term canned.

41:58

I mean, the reality is, you know, she got released from her contract.

42:02

Some say it was mutual. But as we alluded to, you know, I think Dori Sherry

42:08

and direction the studio was taking by that time really needed people who were

42:13

being well paid to be on time and get the job done.

42:16

So I guess, you know, time at the studio came to an end.

42:21

Yeah and she was there for 15 years she had an amazing what

42:25

do you call that body of work amazing body

42:28

of work from mgm because that's where you know the wizard of oz she she did

42:32

it from mgm and well that if you're gonna go out she did a good movie to go

42:38

out with at mgm and she did so many other films yeah and these guys they have

42:43

interviews with lorna left left Junie's daughter with Gene Kelly's daughter.

42:47

I ask you, Annette, hi, Annette. I told her you guys were coming on.

42:51

And she said she's a listener and she was a dancer, whatever.

42:54

And her daughter is as well. And she told me, I think I remember you saying

42:59

something about her, but Gene Kelly's last wife, she met her in a gunk with Maine. Does she act?

43:07

No, you mean the Gene Kellis last one? Right. She was working on a project at

43:12

the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C.

43:14

Gene was narrating, and that's how they met, in fact, you know,

43:18

a few decades ago. And she, but I mean, now is she acting?

43:23

No, I don't think she has any acting background. I believe she was an archivist slash researcher.

43:29

No, I mean, in a gunk web, maybe they were showing a film, one of his films,

43:33

and she was there as a guest. I wasn't really sure. I mean, his previous wife, Jeannie Coyne,

43:38

his second wife, was his dance assistant, and she appears in Summer Shock.

43:43

And his first wife, Betsy Blair, was an actress.

43:47

In fact, she was the leading lady opposite Ernest Boardman in Marty. She was wonderful.

43:52

His first two wives definitely had a show business slash acting slash dancing

43:59

background, particularly dancing with Jeannie, his second wife.

44:04

But his third wife met him at the Smithsonian, and to our knowledge,

44:08

doesn't per se have, you know, an acting background.

44:13

Yes. So, what I was going to ask you, I'm blanking you guys, I'm blanking here.

44:19

So, do you have places you're making, I know you have one in New York,

44:22

and you're going to send that to me. You want to tell everybody in the New York area where they can see you guys? Sure.

44:29

Well, the Film Forum is actually showing the film in its glorious 35 millimeter

44:35

original Technicolor print down on Houston Street in the West Village.

44:40

They'll be screening the film and Tom and I will be there on Sunday, November 19th.

44:46

I believe if you go to the Film Forum, it's about a 7.50 p.m. start time for that.

44:52

And we'll do a short steal, sign some books. And we have a longer presentation

44:57

with special guest Richard Maltby Jr.

45:00

And the legendary film critic Rex Reed. I want to meet him, too.

45:05

That will be Monday, November 20th at 6.30 p.m.

45:10

At the National Arts Club in Gramercy Park.

45:14

So if you go to the National Arts Club, go to their calendar,

45:17

you'll see our event for November 20th. but they certainly advise free registration

45:23

because there's a limited capacity for the room.

45:26

And if you've never been to the Film Forum or the National Arts Club,

45:30

they're amazing facilities, amazing venue.

45:33

I can, yeah, I've never been to the other one, but I've been to the Film Forum a bunch of times.

45:37

And it is such a great place. And it's really does show, I know someone else

45:41

who did a book signing there. And it's a great theater. If you're in the area, I would advise you to go there

45:47

and check. It's so much fun to see these movies on the big screen like they were originally shown.

45:52

I don't think there's anything like it. It kind of gives you the chills.

45:56

Tom, how are you in there? How you doing? I'm good.

46:01

I'm doing good. Good. Okay. So, guys, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show.

46:08

I really am such fans of you both. And you know how you were on a couple years

46:12

ago. I love you. And please do come on again.

46:14

We do this. But come on again and talk some more about your wonderful Hollywood heyday book.

46:21

And I just love you guys. And I am so glad you guys are getting such good press

46:26

with this and good reviews. Great. Thank you so much for coming on. You're wonderful. Hope we can meet you

46:34

in New York. I hope so, too. Yeah, great. I would love it. I would really love it.

46:39

You'll know me. I'm going to be wearing my glamorous frock, my rhinestone studded evening dress.

46:46

Ha ha. There you go. I'll look like a dish. Anyway. We look forward to it.

46:51

Okay. So thank you, guys. I really

46:54

appreciate it. Anyway, we'll hopefully see you soon. I hope so, too.

46:57

Take care. And Tom Johnson, David Fantel, come on, get happy,

47:01

everybody. Hallelujah. Yes. Thank you. Thanks, everybody.

47:04

Music.