0:01

This is a HeadGum Podcast.

0:05

Rachel,

0:07

what's up? This episode,

0:09

it's kind of spicy. It's very spicy.

0:12

Yeah, there's a lot to talk about. Genitals?

0:15

I should say it's very PG-13. I

0:18

mean, how about the, remember the book that I told you about?

0:22

That was not PG-13. No, that was not.

0:25

That was just crazy. It is crazy.

0:28

So anyway, when you listen to

0:30

this, you'll get to a point where it's like, I'm going to tell you something

0:32

that you probably didn't know. And again.

0:35

And that never happens. Every documentary ends up

0:37

in Florida.

0:38

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Does it? Don't

0:41

spill any beans. I'm not going to spill any beans, but you guys.

0:43

Okay, I think we should get right to it. Let's get

0:45

into it. Ladies and jerks,

0:48

welcome to Judy Blume

0:50

Forever.

0:58

Hey, Rachel.

1:01

Hey.

1:03

Hey, lady. Oh,

1:06

boy. How are

1:08

you? Yeah, yeah. I'm

1:10

good. That's right. I'm good. How

1:13

are you? I'm good. That's right.

1:16

That's right. We're in the middle of life. Life

1:19

is in session. Oh my God. I wish you had that sign in your

1:21

living room for inspiration. Yeah,

1:23

that life is in session. Life is in session, you guys.

1:26

We do have an interesting ...

1:28

Listen, they're all interesting, of course, but this

1:30

one is like ... This one's good.

1:33

This one, there's a lot. I love

1:35

this one. Oh, yeah. I

1:38

am so curious. Okay. All

1:40

right. Well, let's just ... Unless there's anything that you need to tell

1:42

me about your life that you want to get off your

1:45

chest or you want to share with

1:47

the listeners or ... Cheryl? Cheryl.

1:50

It's another podcast. Cheryl. It's

1:52

another podcast. That's a whole ... That's a whole ... That's

1:54

a whole another universe. Another universe.

1:57

But, yeah, you just keep ...

1:59

You keep ... during the best you can move in and sands

2:02

north nuts and lies assistance or

2:05

you can pierce city so

2:07

and i've been trying to be as honest as you possibly can

2:09

and there you go been susan

2:12

film done and done till the metal

2:14

the truth so the truth and how it says

2:16

seem like you have a lot going

2:18

on that we really i

2:21

mean it's it's it's just tell the truth about

2:23

my sizes size and kidding

2:25

the i know i remember saying that to people like

2:28

when they would ask advice he about

2:30

when you become an actor and you

2:32

go into war jokes hitting says his and oh my gosh

2:34

just tell them the truth about your senators that is

2:36

true because you do an ally a little that and and when you

2:38

get in there are you say you're a size

2:40

tail and you're really aside in poor

2:43

or sex then you get it now all that they

2:45

were like law i got a natural and it's you because

2:47

it is psychosis and you're like our

2:49

guide nothing says side way i

2:52

heard this is total hollywood gossip

2:54

but i'm pretty

2:55

sure it's true

2:56

because i know somebody

2:58

in the business hill the options

3:01

on this show reasons

3:04

to believe she was a certain size

3:06

so the wardrobe

3:09

people would have to buy

3:11

something take the size

3:14

out sometimes put an

3:17

excise yeah you told me this the soon

3:19

as it sticks with me is i might is so

3:21

and if people are doing that to me

3:24

would

3:24

have

3:26

c or not they're not sooner but you know what's

3:28

also crazy as that i've heard different

3:30

actor says that i said if they don't

3:32

like something they say i'm allergic

3:34

to decide rec oh instead

3:38

of why he bet this is what i'm saying why

3:41

can't you just be honest and say i don't

3:43

like this i'm not really comfortable and allergic

3:45

to khakis muslim remember

3:47

uncle i'm a little yeah i'm allergic to twill

3:51

i saw my cell phone curb

3:53

your enthusiasm once so i

3:55

remember this yeah i'm sorry way

3:57

was again soon or and

7:26

And

8:00

I think because of my own childhood,

8:02

we didn't talk about

8:04

anything. Yeah. I mean, and I don't

8:07

think you guys talked about anything in

8:09

your family. No, I learned from my PE coach.

8:15

Yeah, your friends at school. Well that's kind of on

8:17

brand though because that's what happened

8:19

in the book, you know, is that the trainees were

8:21

there in the gym and they're talking about it. They

8:24

didn't talk about masturbation. They didn't talk about masturbation,

8:26

but I wish they had because,

8:30

well, I mean, I had a lot of, we can get into

8:32

it. We can talk about those, but I think we've

8:35

all had myths, you know, and things

8:37

that were told to us about

8:39

sexuality. Like what? That were completely

8:42

not real. Oh,

8:44

well, for example, I

8:46

had one of my first boyfriends when

8:48

I was in college was saying that

8:51

because I didn't have

8:53

an orgasm

8:55

when we were having sex that something was wrong with me. Mm.

8:59

That I was like broken. Oh, yeah. You

9:02

did. Okay. Your early

9:04

sexual experiences were not great. I

9:07

think we can save. No. I'm sorry.

9:10

We've already talked about, yes. Yeah. The one

9:12

that fell asleep during. But that's also why I think I feel so passionate

9:15

about. Judy Boom. Books.

9:17

Yeah. And getting the word

9:20

out. Yeah. I just being open about it. I

9:22

think that's what I loved so much. How did

9:24

you feel? Because it made you, if you guys

9:26

could have seen her face when we were listening to that passage,

9:29

you were like grinning and bearing it and you're

9:32

like, yeah, I

9:34

don't, you know, first of all, I wasn't

9:37

mentally prepared. I needed

9:39

a ramp up to this. In

9:42

the film, I needed one little ramp

9:45

up. You know what I mean? It

9:47

was like a lot coming at you all at once. But

9:49

that's all Judy Bloom. But if you don't know

9:52

Judy Bloom's book, did you read her book? I

9:54

did not, however. I

9:57

do recall. Are you there,

9:59

God?

10:28

sound

12:00

like? Who's that sound like?

12:01

I'm like I am

12:03

not the

12:04

person... You're suddenly a nooper. You're a nooper.

12:06

I am a nooper. You're usually Rachel.

12:09

Rachel loves to say nope. I

12:12

love it when it's a clear nope. I

12:14

just remember you saying

12:16

that, oh was it Christmas? Christmas day? Here

12:19

we go. She loves to pull up this

12:21

old chestnut. Because it was like way

12:23

back in like 2008 or something.

12:26

And it's like it really gives you a

12:28

very

12:29

clear picture of who you are.

12:32

So you go to

12:35

a spinning class on Christmas day. Christmas

12:37

Eve. Christmas Eve. Yeah Christmas Eve. Just to clear

12:39

your mind, get some time

12:42

in, and you're pedaling away.

12:44

And the guy next to you, was

12:46

he singing? He was singing. He was

12:49

singing badly and very loudly. Yeah.

12:51

Christmas carols. And they were playing

12:53

in the cycling class. And Rachel just

12:55

looked at him and said nope.

12:59

This guy, he was

13:02

having this joyful

13:04

moment. And you were like

13:06

nope. Not on my time you don't.

13:09

This is my time. That

13:11

poor guy. That just makes me laugh. He

13:13

did not see it coming. Okay and he's here

13:15

now. Let's bring him in. Hey

13:18

John. Michael. Michael. John Michael.

13:20

John Michael. Okay he's

13:22

probably still telling this story. Like Rachel Harris

13:25

went off on it. Y'all can't hunt Rachel. Just

13:27

for that we have

13:30

to take a break. Okay. You cannot

13:32

use that kind of language. Well we're gonna talk

13:34

about a lot of vaginas and

13:37

menstruation today. So I just. So yeah

13:39

if you have little listeners. Yeah

13:42

earmuffs. This is not. I think this should just be

13:44

like R rated or PG-13 if we have to

13:46

like put a thing on it. You know

13:48

what I mean? Like a rating. People people

13:51

know. I am definitely R rated and

13:53

you

13:54

are PG. Yeah

13:55

I would like to think of PG-17. Mm-hmm.

13:57

Oh,

14:00

that's not true. You're

14:02

PG.

14:02

Publicly, you're PG.

14:04

Privately,

14:06

PG-17, you're

14:07

still PG-17. And

14:10

I'm just like, come on, get your rating

14:12

up. I'm an R, let's go. Okay,

14:16

we will be right back. I was gonna

14:18

say with more of Judy Bloom forever, but we have not

14:20

gotten anywhere. When we come

14:22

back, we're gonna get into it. Oh,

14:24

it's okay. Okay,

14:36

welcome back. We're talking about Judy Bloom

14:38

forever. Forever? I

14:41

think it's called forever Judy Bloom. Is that right, Tom? No,

14:43

it's Judy Bloom forever. Forever dot, dot, dot, three ellipses,

14:46

which is my favorite. I

14:50

don't know if there is an ellipse. Forever.

14:53

It's forever dot, dot, dot. Thomas, is that

14:55

forever dot, dot, dot? Maybe that's the book.

14:57

In the book, there's the book.

14:58

In the book, it's dot, dot, dot, which just means forever,

15:01

but maybe not. But maybe not. Judy

15:05

was on Letterman, Joan Rivers, Seth

15:07

Meyers. She sold more than 80 million

15:10

books and has written over 20

15:12

coming of age novels. She

15:15

appeared on The Simpsons. She's

15:17

inspired countless people, including Molly

15:19

Ringwald and Lena Dunham, who

15:21

are on this.

15:24

It was interesting to see Molly Ringwald too, because

15:26

I feel like she's still got the same look. I

15:28

mean, it's cute.

15:29

You know, we see people

15:32

through the years and it's like, okay, Molly

15:34

Ringwald, same hair. But

15:36

by the way, we've got the same hair. I know. In my

15:38

mind, I always think that somebody's going to come out with, you

15:40

know, the next time you see them, they're going to look completely different and

15:42

they don't. Some people really get off on

15:45

that. Looking completely different. You're changing

15:47

their look. Yeah. I like that they get off

15:49

on it.

15:51

I mean, I don't mean like actually like, oh, I'm going

15:53

to get off on my new hairdo. They

15:55

get off on that. They get off like, like it gives

15:57

them a thrill. I mean, if I really wanted to do it.

15:59

I

16:00

was gonna say I'd like to do that, but then what's stopping

16:03

me?

16:03

Get off? Okay, listen.

16:06

Or change your

16:08

hairdo. Judy

16:10

owns the bookstore. See,

16:13

she's uncomfortable and she's like, I don't want to talk

16:15

about that, Thomas. Called books. I'm

16:18

moving on. Books and books. Books

16:20

and books. And guess where? In Key West. Key

16:23

West, Florida. In Florida. Rachel,

16:25

did I tell you? Every documentary goes back

16:27

to Florida. It kinda makes

16:30

sense because it feels like you're

16:32

trying to run away from everything and

16:34

then you get down to that little dangly part

16:36

and it's like there's nowhere else to go. That

16:39

little dangly part? It's like a dangling

16:42

participle. Yeah, just down there. It's just like,

16:44

mm-hmm. It's like you're... But it's beautiful.

16:46

Yeah, you're surrounded by

16:48

water. It's beautiful. Why

16:50

not? So then we learn about Judy.

16:53

Mm-hmm.

16:54

You know, Tig and I were always so

16:57

surprised when we watched these documentaries

16:59

about people and they were talking about their childhoods

17:02

and there are so many pictures of

17:04

them blowing out candles,

17:07

them on the side, them doing this

17:09

and that. And Tig and I were always like, I

17:12

don't think I have one picture. Do

17:15

you have lots of pictures from your childhood? I

17:17

kind of do just because my sister's a big

17:19

scrapbooker. Oh. And so she's

17:21

made me scrapbook. She

17:23

got all of the pictures that my mom and

17:25

dad took. But

17:27

I know there's actual footage. Footage.

17:30

That somebody has of like my grandfather,

17:33

Ding, Dingledine. No, please. Not kidding.

17:36

Yep, wait. What is his name? Ding. They

17:39

called him Ding. His last name was Dingledine. It was Delmar.

17:42

Delmar Dingledine. I'm not kidding. I

17:45

feel like you were... Evelyn

17:47

and Ding. Dingledine. They called him Ding.

17:50

Ding, Dingledine. Ding, Ding... Well,

17:52

his nickname was Ding. Like they'd be like Dingledine

17:54

and so they called him Ding. What was his first name?

17:56

Devador. It was Delmar. Delmar.

18:00

My sister's gonna listen to this and say, Rachel, Delmar

18:02

Dingle Dine. What was this? Delmar

18:04

Dingle Dine? What? You are

18:07

so, so good with names, Cheryl. It

18:09

was Dingle Dine. Like, you're gonna

18:12

dingle and then you're gonna

18:13

dine.

18:15

So, Dingle Dine. And

18:18

it was Evelyn Dingle Dine. She's my favorite,

18:20

favorite grandmother. Are you saying dingle

18:23

is a verb? You're gonna dingle

18:25

and then you're gonna dine? I'm just trying to make

18:27

the last name make sense for you. And that

18:30

does. Okay. Dingle

18:34

Dine. Wow. Right?

18:37

Delmar Dingle Dine. Delmar Dingle Dine. Okay.

18:39

They love deliteration. Okay,

18:42

so how did we get off on that? Because you

18:45

had pictures. Oh, that's right.

18:47

Dingle. They have great, like, grainy...

18:49

Yeah, my uncle's a little dine. My grandfather

18:52

a dingle dine.

18:53

My grandfather a dingle dine.

18:56

This is my dad's stepdad. My

19:00

dad's last name was Harris. And then Dings.

19:02

Okay, and they handle the footage. Like, they have... Okay. But

19:05

somebody has all of these. Nobody's

19:07

ever gonna watch it again. Nobody's ever gonna watch it again.

19:10

Okay. I mean, they might. Maybe I have my own documentary.

19:13

We'll see. Okay, so Judy

19:16

was very interesting because she did

19:18

have lots of pictures and she

19:20

said that she identifies very strongly

19:23

with children. And what

19:25

was fascinating to me is that she

19:27

says she has total recall. Yeah.

19:30

From third grade up. That's

19:32

crazy. She can remember

19:35

friends. I mean, like, I have

19:37

memories from grade school, but

19:39

I don't have... Total recall. Total

19:42

recall. I can't tell you, like, like, Marg

19:44

Heldenberg, I think has that thing where it's like, I remember

19:46

on this date, I was wearing this. I know.

19:49

So does her. What's her name from Taxi?

19:52

That's what I'm saying. Isn't that Marg Heldenberg?

19:54

Not at all. Oh, she's another redhead.

19:57

Oh, yeah. She, that's... Point

20:01

is yes the woman from taxi has

20:04

total recall and that's embarrassing that we can't think

20:06

of her name. It'll come to us. Mary Lou Hennar.

20:08

She was Marg Helgebert's same

20:10

initials

20:10

M.H.

20:12

I don't know what that says about me but

20:15

it's pretty sad. I had a lot of syllables. Okay.

20:19

Judy, she says that she has

20:22

total recall and as a child she was very

20:24

anxious. She grew up as a Jewish

20:26

child in the shadow of World War II.

20:29

So of course

20:30

that would make you anxious and

20:34

she said she had a lot of questions. She'd

20:36

ask her mom and her mom wouldn't tell

20:39

her anything. And then her mom said that

20:41

happened very far away and that will never happen

20:43

here but she

20:45

was still so anxious

20:48

about that happening. Yeah and she felt like grownups

20:51

have secrets that they don't tell kids

20:53

and then of course that makes you anxious

20:55

too because you're wondering what you

20:57

don't know. Okay Judy's

21:00

dad was very close to her dad.

21:03

He was adventurous. He had six

21:06

siblings who all died young and

21:08

Judy felt like it was her secret responsibility

21:11

to keep her dad alive. So

21:13

she would pray all the time and she

21:16

felt like she was the one keeping

21:18

him alive. And also are

21:20

we getting into what happened the day he died

21:22

yet or no? Oh we can. Because

21:25

that was so crazy. She came home

21:27

and I think that they were having a

21:30

great celebration or something like I

21:32

can't remember specifically but he said this is a great

21:34

day for our family. And

21:40

then he

21:43

clutched his chest and he was like oh and

21:46

she said that he literally said oh shit

21:49

shit this is horrible timing. And

21:51

like he knew he was having

21:54

a massive heart attack. Yeah and

21:56

it was five weeks before she was going to get married.

21:59

Yeah and she.

21:59

when they didn't postpone the wedding.

22:02

No, they didn't. I mean, that's

22:04

the epitome of like people pleasing

22:07

and like don't walk the boat. Let's just keep everything

22:09

going. Let's just, we're gonna be fine. We're

22:11

gonna push through. When in the back

22:13

of your head, you're like, good God,

22:16

I'm the most depressed

22:18

I've ever been. I don't understand

22:20

what just happened with my father. And yet I've

22:22

gotta act like everything's, I think that's the

22:24

definition of hell. When something's

22:27

going on in your brain and you have to act like something

22:29

else is happening.

22:30

That's a tortured soul. Yeah,

22:32

and I think that she, I think she

22:35

wanted to unburden children

22:37

from that. Yes.

22:39

I think she wanted them to know that

22:41

everything that they were thinking and feeling was

22:44

normal.

22:45

Yeah. Yeah. And Judy's mom

22:47

always said, be a good girl, Judy. And

22:50

Judy is so- So did my mom.

22:52

Oh,

22:53

really? That was the only thing my mom would say to me.

22:56

I just want you to be a nice girl,

22:58

Rachel. Which was said so

23:00

sweetly. So

23:02

sweetly. Angrily. Was

23:06

it because of religion or this

23:08

is just in general? No,

23:10

I think it was just in general. And so I just thought

23:13

I just have to be nice. I just have to be

23:15

nice. That's why I think I'm so angry. Yes,

23:17

that's why you feel free to yell nope

23:20

to a guy who's just celebrating Christmas Eve on

23:22

a- Well, I think I was just so, I didn't spin

23:24

the bicycle. That's

23:26

not true. I think I feel, I don't feel like I'm an angry person.

23:29

I feel like I don't want to hold it in when

23:31

I am angry. And you don't. Does that make

23:34

sense? And you don't. Congratulations,

23:36

Rachel. You've achieved your goals. But

23:38

I also have a much healthier way of expressing

23:41

it. I'm okay with it now.

23:43

Whereas I was still not okay with my anger. Anyway,

23:46

and so I would express it not right. You know what, you're doing

23:48

great. Rachel, keep doing

23:49

what you're doing.

23:52

So she would say to her, just be a

23:54

nice girl. Which I think a lot of women

23:56

at that time were told, just be nice,

23:58

be ladylike or good. Judy

24:01

went to NYU with the goal of finding

24:03

a husband, an MRS degree.

24:06

I feel people used to say that. Yeah, her

24:08

Mrs. degree. Oh yeah. Sophomore year she

24:10

met her future husband, a lawyer, and she felt very

24:12

grown up. She bought a mint green girdle.

24:15

Don't know why we need to know that. But

24:17

it was like women wear girdles maybe.

24:18

She didn't need to wear a

24:20

girdle.

24:21

Just like a lot of women out there don't need to wear Spanx,

24:23

but they do. They do. And boy,

24:26

I sure don't ever need to see another pair of Spanx in my life again. You

24:28

know what? There's nothing more

24:30

awkward than watching somebody else try to put Spanx

24:32

on. Yeah. It's

24:35

humiliating for everyone. She

24:38

cannot unsee it. After

24:41

it happens, you're like, oh, here

24:43

she comes. Okay. So

24:49

Judy, she was a young wife and a mother

24:52

in a suburban neighborhood

24:54

in New Jersey. None of the

24:56

moms worked, and she needed an outlet,

24:58

so she started writing. And she said her

25:01

first attempts were awful. She

25:03

felt like they were imitations of Dr. Seuss.

25:06

And Judy wrote for years receiving rejection

25:09

after rejection from publishing houses, which I

25:12

loved hearing that. Yes. Yeah.

25:15

Because it's like, oh. You can relate to that. Yeah.

25:18

Yeah. But she kept going. Yeah.

25:21

And people were like, and nothing. It's not good. But she

25:23

knew. She was like deep down. She's like,

25:25

oh, that just makes me want to prove you wrong even more,

25:27

which I love. Mm-hmm. That personality.

25:30

I love that perseverance. Yeah. Judy's

25:32

first breakthrough was, Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret.

25:35

About an 11-year-old girl who wants to fit

25:37

in, she's thinking about puberty and

25:40

finds a confidant in God. Her

25:42

friends chant, we

25:45

must, we must, we must increase our

25:47

bust. Mm-hmm. I mean, I was

25:49

very fascinated at that concept at

25:51

the time. I was like, could that work? We

25:54

all did it. Is there anything

25:56

to this? Like, how is this a thing? I know.

27:49

And

28:07

we're back. We're back. Cheryl,

28:10

what are you liking a man? Oh, for

28:13

balls sake. Yeah, what are you attracted

28:15

to? Are you worried about physically? I'm

28:17

talking about physically. Yeah.

28:21

See? I

28:25

like a man's back. Oh,

28:27

okay. Do you like it? Or do you

28:29

like it? Well, we all know I don't because the

28:32

one, that's right. That's right. And

28:34

tell, telemarketers, telemarketers,

28:36

it starts out with all the, the

28:39

older and back. Yeah. You were

28:42

a big note. I was like, wow.

28:44

I can't get through it. Okay.

28:48

Rachel, uh, what is

28:50

it about the back?

28:51

I don't know. Cause they're

28:54

muscular. Come on PG 17.

28:58

Let's go PG 17. Cause

29:00

I'm muscular and strong. Promise is going to cut all.

29:04

Oh, he sure is not. Okay.

29:07

Listen, Dick Jackson was

29:09

Judy's editor. You know, I thought it was very

29:11

sweet that this guy read this was like,

29:14

yeah, I see how young people

29:16

are going to relate to this. It

29:19

was very sweet. He helped champion

29:21

the book, which became a sensation

29:24

for its Frank discussion on menstruation

29:27

and other subjects that

29:28

were taboo at the time. That

29:30

catapulted her

29:33

to the top of YA. Isn't

29:36

it funny when they, they keep saying YA in the

29:38

YA young at all. Yeah. It took

29:41

me a second. I was like, YA, YA, because

29:43

nobody was doing it, but that's the thing. Like that's

29:45

exactly what they're dealing with. Right. At

29:47

that rate. And everybody's

29:50

telling you that it's bad or that

29:52

it's like, you're supposed to, I

29:54

love that section where the women,

29:57

the girls are talking about and they're like, Oh, did you get

29:59

the curse?

31:59

Because I'm this.

32:01

This, yeah. That's

32:04

something that I, you know, maybe like a junior high, high

32:06

schooler would say. But you

32:08

know what this is, I wanted to say I love this

32:10

about Judy is that she talked

32:13

about being like, she was like, the

32:15

feminist movement didn't really hit her

32:18

in New Jersey, but she was reading

32:19

about it like in Ms. Magazine. And

32:22

she was saying, even though I didn't really actively

32:24

go out and walk the street

32:27

and things like that, she's like, it was my own,

32:29

I was being a feminist, you

32:32

know, standing up for women's rights in

32:35

my own way, like through my books.

32:38

And I loved that she was

32:40

coming from a place of loving herself, loving

32:42

like the kids, like the boys and

32:44

girls. And I always felt like she

32:47

wasn't anti, she's never anti male

32:49

throughout any of it. No,

32:51

no. And I was like, I love men and I love that she

32:53

had marriages and

32:56

then a healthy relationship with

32:58

George. It wasn't like, I love that she was like, I made

33:00

peace that I'm not good at this, but

33:02

am I getting ahead? Yes, Rachel. I

33:05

know, but I love it. I love it so much. I

33:07

think you do it just to bother me. I

33:10

don't. I really, I really don't. I just am

33:12

like, it's just, I'm just like keeping

33:14

it all together. Okay. I know that Judy

33:17

received a thousand to 2000 letters

33:20

a month from young readers pouring their heart

33:22

out to her. I didn't know that. I didn't

33:24

know that either. Lori Kim was

33:26

an awkward girl who wrote to Judy Bloom

33:29

frequently as a kid and Judy loved her

33:31

letters and couldn't wait to write back. This is

33:33

also astounding that they

33:36

had all these letters. Yeah.

33:38

That she saved them. How

33:41

is that possible? Judy

33:43

Bloom saved all those

33:46

letters. Those letters. Lori

33:48

thought of herself as a reporter of what sixth

33:50

grade was like. So Lori would write

33:52

to her all the time

33:55

and just kept writing to her. And then Judy

33:57

would write people back. Yeah.

34:00

It's amazing very sweet who

34:02

has that kind of time? Judy

34:06

I know I get but you make the

34:08

fan mail that you get yeah Hey,

34:11

by the way, I have My

34:14

first piece of fan mail is

34:16

framed and it

34:18

was from a prison. Thank

34:21

you. Good night, everybody You know

34:23

what? I like that you thought I'm gonna frame

34:25

this But I have to say the fan

34:27

mail is a little bit it's different than writing

34:29

letters to DD bloom

34:30

when you're 13 Yeah,

34:32

yeah

34:33

It's usually adults

34:35

that are like hey, can I get a picture? Exactly.

34:37

But yeah, these kids are

34:41

Writing her saying my father

34:43

died my brother died

34:47

by suicide I mean

34:50

it's heavy and these kids have real

34:52

issues and they have real things that they

34:54

can't talk to other people about And

34:57

and a lot of them were using them basically

35:00

as a journal Yeah, I I also

35:02

like that so many of the kids wrote

35:05

wrote to her and

35:06

confided in her and That

35:09

she said I just think that by

35:12

my response is they just the only thing

35:14

that she's like She's like they just needed to know

35:16

that I supported them Yeah, she's

35:18

like I think they just needed support Yeah

35:20

saying I hear you and I understand

35:22

and it's hard to be a kid I loved it when she said

35:24

it's really hard to be a kid I

35:27

know because I'm sure that's you know

35:29

when you're little and in between,

35:32

you know being or young kid and

35:35

Even a older teenager. It's like you're just

35:37

in this Nowhere land where

35:39

people don't really see you But

35:42

you still could be going through a lot of heavy

35:44

stuff Yeah, and just to

35:46

have an adult look at you and

35:48

say it's hard for you if that's

35:51

validating Mm-hmm. Um

35:54

This is sad. Yeah, I

35:57

was married to this guy John. Mm-hmm. It

35:59

was really sad

37:59

I didn't read Dini, but I

38:02

loved hearing what they said about it in the doc. Yeah,

38:05

it was about a girl with scoliosis and

38:07

there was also a casual mention

38:09

of masturbation. Right. Because

38:11

she's saying, yes, Dini

38:15

still enjoys masturbating. And

38:17

she was like, she would talk about it as her special

38:19

place. Right? I think that

38:21

was it, was her special place. Like she would go to bed

38:23

and then she had like a special place that

38:26

made her happy. Do you have

38:28

a special place?

38:33

The 70s was the time

38:35

of sexual revelation. And we're back to G-rating.

38:37

All right. Movement, okay. Judy

38:42

was inspired by Randy's suggestion to write

38:44

forever about high school

38:47

seniors. Oh, so Randy was

38:49

her

38:49

daughter. Yes, Randy's her daughter.

38:51

And her daughter said, I feel like every book

38:54

that I read, anybody that

38:56

has sex, it's bad. Somebody

38:59

gets pregnant, somebody dies,

39:02

something bad happens to them. And

39:04

she said, you know, can't mom, can't you

39:06

write a book about sex where it's just,

39:09

it's not a bad thing? And she said, yes, I can.

39:12

And she did pretty amazing. She

39:14

wrote forever. Dot, dot, dot ellipses. I'm

39:17

a big fan

39:17

of

39:19

ellipses. I speak in ellipses. You

39:23

love ellipses.

39:25

Oh, okay.

39:28

That was weird.

39:31

It was almost like a sexual sound. Ew.

39:34

Yeah, that's why I said. I didn't mean to. I

39:36

just was like, I do. I was like, oh, I thought

39:38

you were like, oh, I could do. No.

39:41

Okay.

39:42

And

39:44

in forever, there's a passage of

39:47

the book about touching a penis that became famous.

39:50

Yes. He's like, Catherine,

39:52

this is Ralph. Oh, this is

39:54

Ralph. This is Catherine. Yes. And

39:57

Ralph was his penis.

41:59

and people

42:01

were like tied up to these...

42:06

I

42:09

wish we had this on film, what

42:11

you're doing right now. You

42:13

guys, she has her hands up above her

42:15

head and she's trying to act

42:18

out that these people were tied

42:20

up in this castle and I'm like, your

42:23

hands out of the frame do nothing

42:26

for me right now. They were hanging,

42:29

they were nude. Hanging

42:31

from the... They were what? They

42:34

were nude? They were nude,

42:37

hanging from the rafters. Like

42:40

meat hooks, like these slabs

42:42

of meat. Kind of, but also

42:44

like... I

42:47

don't know why you have to keep your hands up in the

42:49

air and you're acting it out and you

42:51

can't stop. Oh my God. And

42:53

they're like folded in half, like

42:56

hands up, feet up. So

42:58

just their butts are that thing

43:00

to lay down. And then when people would walk

43:02

by them, they would like...

43:04

Finger them?

43:06

I mean, it was crazy. I just

43:08

remember... You just made

43:09

it, R-rated. We

43:14

did it! We did it!

43:16

True story, we got

43:18

her there. Yes!

43:21

Okay, so people would just walk by

43:23

and randomly finger them? That seems like they

43:26

were hostages. Or was it consensual?

43:28

I don't remember.

43:30

I do remember something about... That

43:32

seems like an important part. Somebody being on the

43:34

back of a horse, naked.

43:39

Girl, girl, I'm... I'm

43:43

just telling you what I... You must have

43:45

read it. Yeah, you read it. And that

43:48

book, I was like, whoa. I

43:50

do not want to be seen

43:52

reading this thing. No.

43:55

But if anybody wants... That's

43:59

a thought word. than Judy Bloom

44:01

forever dot dot dot or 50

44:05

Shades of Grey. Yeah this is like I'm telling

44:07

you it's off the charts like I saw

44:09

Anne Rice in a different way after this because I

44:11

was like whoa I didn't even know this was happening

44:15

I didn't know this was happening in somebody's imagination

44:19

it's like watching the remember when you watch The

44:21

Exorcist and you were like I did not

44:23

watch it you never watched it never

44:25

no my dad was like you can't handle it he's

44:28

like you tell me he said promise me you never

44:32

ever watch The Exorcist and you

44:34

said I won't and I said and I he

44:36

knew he knows me he knew my brain he was like just

44:39

don't don't just don't go there and I'm

44:41

like okay well I mean it is crazy and when I

44:43

would I remember watching it thinking who

44:45

thought of this yeah

44:48

that's right then I guess some people say it's

44:50

based on a true story I don't know okay now I'm just done

44:52

now I don't it listen yeah

44:54

I won't

44:54

take my word for it you

44:56

know what email us calling

44:58

we don't have a call-in number okay

45:02

oh Thomas do we need to start wrapping up

45:05

we didn't even get to our my favorite part oh my

45:07

gosh oh my gosh what's your favorite part wait

45:09

wait what's your favorite part okay all right pappy

45:11

cannon well that

45:13

was amazing I'm gonna put her in the hot

45:15

seat like that and she's so cool okay

45:17

let's see it let's barrel through okay

45:20

barrel okay marry the first guy she

45:22

met after she did get the boars

45:25

she's been married for 16 years and

45:28

wrote it's not the end of the world about divorce

45:30

to which was 37 she left her marriage she wanted

45:32

to live travel see the world she married

45:34

the first guy she met moved to England

45:37

London he was a scientist yeah she

45:39

took her kids out of school seventh and ninth grade

45:41

took them out took them to London yeah

45:44

then she said it was a terrible

45:46

mistake you know what it happens

45:48

we all I don't

45:54

you nail it every time

45:57

Judy wrote her oh this is

45:59

interesting. Yeah. She wrote her first adult

46:02

novel, Wifey, which

46:04

was highly autobiographical. It

46:06

was sexy, funny, and a naughty hit. Yeah.

46:09

But people were mad. Yes,

46:11

because they were used to her writing for YA.

46:14

Oh, way to use YA. Can I tell

46:16

you the thing? I wish it would. This also falls under what

46:18

made me cry. Should I say that?

46:20

Should I say that? Mm-hmm. Okay,

46:22

I'll save it. Okay. Save it, Rachel. Okay.

46:25

In the 80s, Reagan was elected. This

46:27

is us barreling. This is us barreling.

46:31

Reagan was elected. There was a conservative cultural

46:34

backlash, and Judy's books were

46:36

swept up in the tide, frequently being

46:38

banned. Yeah. So crazy.

46:41

It's very timely, because it's happening now.

46:43

I like it's unbelievable that this is still, that

46:45

we've circled back to banning books. Yeah, that

46:47

is parents, we can't say this is the

46:49

book, but this is what my view on it is.

46:51

Yeah. Judy started receiving hundreds

46:54

of death threats. Yeah,

46:56

several. She dealt with controversy for supporting

46:59

Planned Parenthood. I mean, that had to be

47:01

such a tough time for her. Yeah.

47:04

Judy thought she wouldn't ever find love again.

47:06

She made her peace with that.

47:09

And then she met George

47:11

Cooper. George. George

47:14

in 1979. He was a law professor and unfamiliar

47:16

with Judy's work. These two were

47:18

so dang cute together. They were

47:20

so dang cute. And you're just like, those

47:22

guys have had some really great sex. Did

47:25

you think that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because

47:27

you're like those two, they're getting it on. Yeah. Because

47:30

she's like, he's not a worrier. No.

47:33

Which I thought was interesting that she pointed

47:35

that out. I don't remember her saying that.

47:37

A worrier. Yeah. She said he's not a worrier. And

47:40

we just... Not warrior.

47:41

Worrier. Worrier.

47:44

Like worry, like as in fear.

47:46

He's not like... He's a worrier you might like. I've

47:49

never dated a worrier. But

47:52

you have dated a worrier. A

47:55

worrier. Yeah. I've dated.

47:56

Yeah.

47:57

But I also think it's

47:59

fine if you... worry but then also if you're the

48:01

person that's able to say okay I need to like get

48:04

back on track. Yeah I mean everybody

48:06

worries sometimes. Yeah Judy

48:09

remembers her dad dying of his heart attack

48:11

she also remembers her mother saying this was

48:14

weird this felt very

48:17

ordinary people to me she

48:19

also remembers her mother saying there wouldn't be

48:21

a quote-unquote show at his funeral

48:24

meaning they wouldn't get emotional. Yeah

48:26

don't feel your feelings like even in adulthood.

48:29

Yeah it's hard. And

48:31

then this was crazy to me. Lori

48:35

Kim the girl who had been writing

48:37

her all her life she

48:40

was graduating from college did she

48:42

say she called or she had written I can't remember

48:45

and said that her parents

48:47

there was a fallout with her parents

48:49

they couldn't be there and she asked

48:51

Judy if she and George

48:54

could come and they did.

48:57

And that was the first time they had

48:59

ever met. Met each other. Okay

49:02

George and Judy got a home in Martha's Vineyard she

49:04

wrote her last book in 2015

49:07

and then she decided you know what I want to get out in

49:09

the world I don't want to sit sit around

49:11

in a room writing. And

49:14

for five years her and George

49:17

have run books and books in Key

49:19

West. It's kind of idyllic.

49:22

It's so sweet. It's perfect you know

49:25

by the way Hines and Young my

49:27

company yes we have a scent called

49:30

Key West Sunset. Because

49:32

Key West is so fantastic you should check it

49:34

out Rachel. Well I have and the scent

49:36

is amazing.

49:37

Thank you it

49:38

smells like you're on vacation. Yeah it

49:40

smells fresh it's great. Okay Judy

49:43

still gets asked in letters are

49:45

you 12 years old are you a kid. Yeah

49:48

and she feels like part of her still is.

49:50

Yeah it's so beautiful she

49:52

was pretty amazing. Rachel are you ready for

49:55

final thoughts. I am. It's time

49:57

for happily ever after thoughts where we give our final

49:59

thoughts on the this week's documentary. Did

50:05

you cry? I did. When

50:08

when she was writing wifey

50:11

and at the end of the book she says

50:13

here's to our fucking family or

50:15

like here's to her I can't remember the exact quote but it

50:18

was when she was like should I say fucking

50:20

and her son came in and she

50:22

said to her son what do you think

50:24

do you think that I should say this

50:27

word and she started

50:29

to cry when she was telling the story

50:31

two times I cried

50:33

when her father died and she was reading

50:36

that back that was gut wrenching and

50:38

then the second time that was really powerful

50:41

to me was when her

50:43

son looked at her and said you're

50:46

Judy Bloom

50:49

you can write whatever you want to write yeah

50:51

and you could just see that that

50:54

meant so much to her that her son

50:57

yeah was knew

51:00

who she who she really

51:02

was yeah and

51:04

and celebrated her reminded her and

51:07

reminded her like you are your it's

51:09

like shut up and remember who the fuck you are

51:11

you take a deep breath and remember

51:13

who the fuck you are and it I think think

51:16

that's why I think

51:18

that's why that moved me that she was so touched

51:20

by her son leaving her so much because

51:22

I think that's what we all want you know we want our kids to be

51:25

proud of us and yeah

51:27

and really know who who we are yeah

51:30

yeah Cheryl did you cry I

51:34

came very close

51:37

but I was not gonna give everyone the satisfaction

51:40

of blinking when

51:42

my eyeballs were full keep

51:44

it were you alone when you were watching this all

51:47

right that makes

51:49

no sense but

51:52

when um I love to cry

51:54

oh when she went

51:57

to to Lori's graduation

51:59

Yes! To

52:02

Lori's graduation! Yeah,

52:04

and I

52:05

found out they had not even met before. I

52:08

was like, oh no. Oh boy,

52:10

here it comes. Oh boy, keep it. It

52:13

was so sweet. I just

52:15

couldn't even believe it. And George went to... Mm-hmm.

52:18

Aw, Judy and George. Judy and George. They

52:20

found each other. Rachel, they found each other. But

52:22

maybe if I have two dogs, maybe at some point I'll

52:24

name them Judy and George. Ah, that's cute. Judy

52:27

and George. Rachel? Rachel, who

52:30

were you attracted to? Well, I

52:32

think I was... Yeah, but I think I was attracted

52:35

to George. Yeah,

52:37

he was very cute. How about you? Ah,

52:40

you know there was this one guy, Justin, who

52:43

was a publisher for a shoestar. Oh.

52:46

I don't remember Justin. I

52:49

know, I just don't remember. No, he was really cute. Oh,

52:51

he was the publisher. Yes, yeah, he was

52:53

really cute. I liked his vibe

52:55

and I was like, oh, hey Justin. Hey.

52:58

Rachel, that was your chance for True Story Talk Back. Okay.

53:01

Do you have anything to say to anybody?

53:04

And it's okay if you don't. I don't know

53:06

if I have anything. You left it on the floor. To talk

53:08

back to anybody in the documentary? Yes.

53:11

Oh, I just think that I

53:14

loved when she was talking to Joan

53:16

Rivers and to Dr. Ruth

53:19

Westheimer. I just loved

53:21

that that talking was so free

53:23

and open. We weren't worried about

53:25

censors and things like that. Yeah. I

53:28

would like to say to Judy, because

53:30

I know she's listening. Oh. Hey,

53:32

Judy. Hey. Thank

53:34

you for being so truthful. You

53:37

know, she was always so connected to the truth

53:40

in a way that everybody appreciated.

53:43

And she stuck with it even when

53:45

people were mad at her

53:48

or telling her she should do something different.

53:52

She just knew her

53:54

truth and she did not

53:57

wave her.

53:57

So thank you, Judy Bloom. Thank you.

54:01

Rachel, that's all

54:03

for this week's episode. Next week

54:05

we will be talking about, oh no,

54:08

yep, the Murdoch murders.

54:12

The Murdoch. Murdoch. Is

54:14

it Murdoch? This is a problem

54:16

for me. Yeah, it is. Because I don't

54:18

have clarity on it's

54:20

the Murdoch murders.

54:23

And we would love

54:25

to hear from you. So if you do have

54:27

anything to say about

54:30

what we've been asking you, or

54:32

if you have feelings about Rachel,

54:35

or

54:35

Cheryl,

54:38

just email

54:40

us at true story fan mail at

54:42

gmail.com. And we might

54:45

just read yours on air. Oh,

54:47

I can't wait. I cannot wait. No, I

54:49

know. I can't wait. All right, Rach.

54:52

Thank you everybody so much for listening.

54:55

Thank you so much for listening. And

54:57

we'll call you tonight. We'll call you tonight. Yeah.

55:00

True Story is hosted by me,

55:02

Cheryl Hines, and Rachel Heron. It's

55:04

produced by Thomas Roulette, audio engineered

55:07

and edited by Thomas Roulette with production

55:10

assistance from Nadia Labette. Special

55:12

thanks to Gabby Kovacic, Patrick McDonald,

55:14

and Stephanie Allen. Follow

55:16

us on social media for updates and review

55:19

and rate True Story wherever you get

55:21

your podcasts. You can email us at

55:23

true story fan mail at gmail.com.

55:35

That was a Hickam podcast.