1:59

But

2:05

for some reason, this podcast,

2:08

you'll see, you'll listen, you'll hear it. The

2:10

hardest I've laughed in 24 hours. Oh.

2:14

It all started when Tig and Cheryl

2:16

met in the mid 2000s. Hey,

2:18

nice to meet you, Tig. I'm Cheryl Hines. Hi,

2:21

Cheryl. I'm Tig Notaro. Should

2:23

we do a podcast about documentaries? Yes. A

2:26

podcast about documentaries? Is this a

2:28

microphone on?

2:30

Five Furious Frogs Fiddling Failing. Furious

2:32

Frogs Fiddling Failing. Five Furious Frogs

2:34

Failing. I am the first ever podcast.

2:37

And Tig and Cheryl are following

2:39

the sound of my footsteps. Let's get

2:41

started. I'm so ready. Tig

2:44

and Cheryl. True story.

2:48

Hey, Tig. Hi, Cheryl. You

2:53

ready to do this thing? I

2:56

was born ready to do this exact

2:58

thing. What about you? Oh,

3:01

I'm really looking forward to talking to you about

3:03

this. Mm-hmm. Because

3:05

this lady is nuts, but

3:07

smart. I guess. And some,

3:10

I think so. This is

3:14

called The Inventor Out

3:16

for Blood in Silicon Valley.

3:19

Mm-hmm. And I wasn't familiar

3:21

with it, but it's a 2019 documentary

3:24

directed by Alex Gibney. It

3:26

chronicles the rise and fall of Elizabeth

3:29

Holmes and her revolutionary

3:31

blood testing company, Fair

3:33

Nose. The company, which Elizabeth

3:36

founded as a teenager, became

3:38

one of the hottest startups in Silicon Valley

3:40

history before collapsing amidst

3:43

allegations of massive fraud.

3:46

The film premiered at Sundance and was

3:48

produced by HBO documentary films.

3:51

Were you familiar with this?

3:53

Well, yeah. I watched it when it came out. Oh,

3:55

okay. I watched it. This is what

3:57

I do. Yeah. But it was fun

3:59

to watch. watch again. I was dying

4:02

to see this because, um, I

4:05

am fascinated at people who,

4:09

who go for a really big lie and

4:15

they get everyone to believe them and

4:17

then they start believing it themselves. But

4:19

that's the thing is did she set out believing that

4:21

she could, because they did reference

4:24

Edison. Right. He ended

4:26

up, you know,

4:28

essentially saying something

4:30

was so before it was, and then

4:32

it was, my gut tells

4:34

me that she

4:36

believed this and envisioned this

4:39

and it did not come to fruition, but

4:42

her ego and lunacy

4:45

could not let it go. And

4:48

I personally don't know how she

4:50

was so

4:51

appealing to so many people.

4:54

That was, that was the real mystery

4:56

to me, but maybe I'm just

4:58

being judgmental. Well, I

5:01

think people that show a lot

5:03

of confidence and can talk

5:06

the talk, people are drawn to

5:08

them. And I think because she was, she's

5:10

a woman that people were

5:12

sort of whatever, ready to see

5:14

a strong woman

5:16

start an

5:18

amazing company. So just so,

5:21

so people, if you haven't seen it,

5:23

it's okay. Her name

5:25

is Elizabeth Holmes. And she started this company

5:28

Theranos when she was 19 and she

5:30

was attending Stanford and what the company

5:33

is, which

5:34

sounds great. That

5:37

you could just take a little drop

5:39

of blood from somebody's finger, like

5:41

a tiny pin prick. And

5:43

then she created this

5:45

little tiny computer

5:48

that you could put that drop of blood in. Tiny,

5:51

very tiny stuff. Yes.

5:53

It's very tiny. What is the capsule?

5:56

The capsule is called something like a micro

5:58

nano.

5:59

Oh, a nano- Nanotainer.

6:02

Nanotainer. So she was

6:04

just making stuff up

6:07

left and right. Yeah. What

6:09

is this? What is this, Elizabeth? That's

6:12

a nanotainer. That's called

6:14

a nanotainer. It's a nanotainer,

6:16

moving on. So then you

6:19

would put this little drop of blood into

6:21

this little,

6:23

what did she call it? The Edison, right?

6:25

She named the little- It basically looked like

6:27

a fax machine. Yeah. It

6:30

probably was after watching the movie.

6:32

It probably, she was probably just putting

6:35

nanotainers. She

6:37

was just faxing nanotainer. Yeah.

6:40

Well,

6:43

the idea is that you put this drop

6:45

of blood in and this little

6:47

computer processes

6:50

your blood, tiny drop,

6:52

and checks like 200 different

6:55

tests to see what you have

6:57

wrong with your body or what you have right with

6:59

your body. Deuses, yeah. So people

7:01

were very interested. This is like,

7:04

people were on

7:06

board with it and thought, wow, this is

7:08

amazing. And she dropped out of

7:10

Stanford because she was so- Okay,

7:13

but that's where she probably should have stayed

7:15

in Stanford. So she could have

7:18

learned more and found

7:20

that this is incorrect

7:23

and what she was doing was wrong. I'm

7:25

a dropout and I have no regrets, but

7:28

hearing her story, I'm feeling

7:30

like maybe she should have stayed in school.

7:33

And by the way, I mean, somebody told her that

7:36

this is impossible. And she said, no.

7:38

You gotta take a step back. She

7:40

said, no, I got this. She was very focused

7:43

on the build it and they will come

7:45

theory. Yes, yes. Oh, and

7:48

by the way, we'll listen to her a

7:50

second at a TED talk, which I think really

7:52

put her on the map. But when you watch this

7:54

documentary, she's got these eyeballs

7:57

that- She does have eyeballs. She never blinks.

7:59

They're big eyeballs.

7:59

and she never blinks. And remember

8:03

how I've commented on how deep your

8:05

voice can get when you get

8:07

really into something? Oh, her.

8:10

She's got a deep voice. So I just want to prepare.

8:13

She kind of talks. She kind of talks. Yeah,

8:15

it's so... She kind of talks like this. Cheryl's

8:17

not known for her impression. You

8:20

listen to her and you tell me if I didn't just nail

8:22

it. Do one more. Do one more before

8:24

we go into it. My name is Elizabeth

8:26

Holmes. Okay. And I've

8:29

got a Theranos situation.

8:31

Facts machine.

8:33

Over the course of the last 11 years, we've

8:35

made it possible... I wasn't wrong. ...to run

8:38

comprehensive laboratory tests from

8:40

a few drops of blood that

8:43

could be taken from a finger.

8:46

And we've made it possible to eliminate

8:49

the tubes and tubes of blood. That's

8:52

good. I think we get it. She's a slow,

8:54

deliberate talker. She's got

8:57

a very deep voice. And

8:59

she loved Steve Jobs.

9:01

I mean, she clearly

9:03

liked his look because she only

9:06

wears black turtleneck. Turtlenecks.

9:08

She tried to sneak in there that she's always

9:11

worn them since she was 14. But

9:13

I would like to see some... I

9:16

feel like they even showed some pictures of her from

9:18

when she was younger. There was no black

9:20

turtleneck. I noticed

9:22

that too. And of course, from childhood,

9:25

we all have a turtleneck. But

9:27

let's not pretend... I mean, the majority

9:30

of us. But let's not pretend we

9:31

only wore black

9:34

turtlenecks. Okay? When you're in third

9:36

grade and you're just going to school and you're black turtleneck

9:38

every day. Yeah. But by

9:40

the way, she's an attractive woman.

9:43

Oh, I didn't know your type in women. That

9:45

never blinks. That's your type. Interesting.

9:49

Well, I'm just saying, yeah, Elizabeth

9:51

Holmes is my type. You

9:54

guys look alike. Lady who never blinks and just talks

9:57

bullshit. Oh, God.

9:59

But I think that was part of her allure.

10:03

She really attracted older

10:06

men with money. Do

10:09

you remember that part of it? I do, yeah.

10:11

I couldn't even believe. And what's so

10:14

crazy is,

10:16

I mean, not to get ahead of the story

10:18

here, but I think our listeners can tell by

10:20

our tone if they haven't seen this documentary.

10:23

Well, and you just said she

10:25

was full of shit. You said bullshit,

10:28

okay? Listen, you said it first. You

10:30

didn't say bullshit, but you said you told everybody

10:33

that she was a... Cuckoo

10:35

bird. But she,

10:37

again, what surprises me is

10:40

how

10:41

many people she lured to

10:43

her, and especially these older men with

10:45

a lot of money. What's also crazy

10:47

is when the truth came out, it's kind of

10:50

like

10:50

Trump. When the truth came out, her followers

10:53

still believed in her,

10:55

and they still believed it was true and that it was

10:57

possible.

10:58

I feel like if I

11:00

was lured as far as these

11:03

people were lured,

11:04

once the truth came out, I

11:06

would jump ship and be like, okay, yeah, she

11:09

did seem crazy.

11:10

She did seem a little weird. She,

11:13

yes. I kind of fell all along.

11:15

Yes, her eyes were completely dry.

11:18

She never blinked her eyes. She never blinked.

11:21

Well, I think it goes back to, did

11:23

we talk about before, did we talk about

11:25

the capability of

11:27

being able to lie to yourself? Maybe.

11:30

Because some people,

11:32

I was listening to NPR. Hi, that's

11:35

smart. Intellectual

11:38

alert. Intellectual

11:40

alert. I really feel

11:42

like

11:43

that puts me on the map of an intellect.

11:46

Anyway, they had somebody on there who

11:48

was talking about people who can lie to

11:50

themselves, and they said that

11:52

sometimes athletes are

11:54

able to do that, and they will,

11:57

before they go, compete.

11:59

tell themselves

12:02

that they are gonna win it.

12:03

They're gonna win

12:05

and they believe it.

12:06

100% believe. So

12:09

some people can lie

12:11

to themselves. And she

12:13

is one of them. Okay, but what are you saying about

12:15

the athlete? And then they do win or they don't

12:17

win? To me, that doesn't sound like a lie. It just

12:19

sounds. Well, they can't win every time.

12:22

Or they say, or I'm

12:24

the best in the world. And

12:27

they believe it. And

12:29

then they're not always gonna be best in the world,

12:31

but they believe it. But what was this story?

12:33

Was it, it went beyond athletes,

12:36

the NPR intellectual alert

12:39

story. Well, I can't remember

12:41

it all. Yes. Nor

12:46

can you understand it all. I

12:50

just remember, listen, Cheryl

12:52

was listening to NVR and

12:55

she does remember them talking about

12:57

how athletes will sometimes

12:59

encourage themselves

13:01

by saying, I can do this.

13:04

And therefore what? They

13:07

can lie to themselves and believe

13:10

that they are the best in the world. So

13:12

they really believe they are the best

13:14

in the world. Yes. Cause I

13:17

have moments where I think, come on, Tig, you can

13:19

do it.

13:20

And then I get out of bed. Right.

13:25

After a motivational talk with yourself. Come

13:27

on, Tig. Just roll over.

13:30

Go on. Roll over. It's

13:33

just like a little bit. Three cats in the way. Sorry.

13:36

Wow.

13:37

Do all your cats sleep with you? Pretty much,

13:40

yeah. We call it kitty city around the house

13:42

now. We have fluff and then we

13:44

have two kittens. Don't,

13:46

uh uh me.

13:47

I'm telling you. You don't like it. Well, you

13:49

don't have to sleep with me. Well,

13:53

let's not rule anything out. Listen.

13:56

Yeah, let's not. When

14:02

is the time gonna come that you have to sleep with me?

14:05

We don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We

14:07

don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. Yeah,

14:09

weird things happen.

14:11

Okay, you heard it first from the intellectual.

14:17

One of my house was on fire and I called you and

14:19

I said, Tig, I have nowhere to go. Would

14:22

you not say? I

14:26

don't know why I have to sleep in your bed.

14:28

It's not intellectual. That's

14:31

who you would call. There's nobody else in LA

14:33

that I can call. How about the fire department?

14:37

Well, I can't sleep at the fire department. A long time ago,

14:39

not even a long time ago, probably a couple of years ago,

14:42

I told you that I felt

14:44

like you and Bobby, I don't

14:46

know if you remember me saying this, but the level of

14:48

friendship that I feel

14:50

with the two of you is if I was locked

14:53

out of my house, had nowhere to go

14:55

and say it's 3.30 in the morning, I

14:58

would feel comfortable

15:00

going up to your bedroom window and knocking on

15:02

the window. Yeah,

15:04

that I feel the same way about

15:06

you. That's

15:09

why in my house was on fire.

15:12

I feel like you and Stephanie would invite me in

15:14

and let me snuggle in between you. There's

15:17

two boys and there's three cats. But

15:21

there's some people where I would say, oh

15:23

gosh, I have nowhere to go. I can't go

15:25

up to their window and knock on their, at

15:27

this hour. Whereas with you, I'd be like, oh

15:29

my God. Yes, we can. And also

15:32

tell your friends. I would bring a whole

15:34

gaggle.

15:34

Yeah, I can't wait to tell her

15:36

what just happened. I have no problem

15:39

disturbing their sleep and

15:41

let's go in.

15:43

But

15:44

if there's a fire,

15:46

and you wanna snuggle in bed

15:49

with my entire family and all of our

15:51

animals. Well, I'm hoping that the cats

15:53

wouldn't be involved. Well, yeah, Kitty City

15:56

would probably get scared and they'd probably run out and

15:58

hide. Okay.

15:59

That's all I needed.

15:59

to get you and Bobby in bed

16:02

snuggling with my entire family.

16:05

First of all, I think my children would be so

16:07

scarred by a hairy man being

16:09

in bed. They wouldn't know what to do

16:11

with themselves. Well, Tig, they're

16:13

gonna have to learn these things. I

16:16

mean, they're gonna have to. No,

16:18

not in this house. We're

16:20

keeping hairy men a secret. What

16:23

happens when they get, you know. When

16:25

they become hairy men. Yeah, what happens?

16:28

Well, then it'll be a fun surprise.

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19:14

Okay, listen, back

19:17

to Elizabeth Holmes. She

19:22

had a good idea. She believed in herself. She still

19:24

liked this idea and she

19:27

thought she was gonna get

19:29

there. So for a while,

19:31

she knew that these

19:34

machines were not ready and were not working

19:37

properly. But because this all

19:39

happened in Silicon Valley, it's

19:42

highly usual for people to be on super

19:45

lockdown. Don't tell anybody our

19:47

secrets. Yeah, don't tell

19:49

anyone we're faxing vials of

19:51

blood to nowhere. Our

19:54

secret is we don't know what the

19:57

fuck we're doing. Don't

19:59

tell anybody.

19:59

I don't know how that he would. So she,

20:02

it is weird, because like

20:04

you're saying, she did have all of these people

20:06

working for her, 900 people or something, 800

20:08

people. And she

20:10

built this huge company

20:13

and they were desperately trying to make it work. And

20:16

she'd walk through the halls. And

20:19

her black turtleneck. Turtleneck,

20:21

like sort of peacock feather, like, hey,

20:24

it's my company. And everybody.

20:27

Blop, blop.

20:29

Wait, is that what a peacock

20:31

sounds like? That was unrelated

20:34

to peacocks. Was that a chicken? It

20:36

was unrelated to this podcast. I'd

20:38

like to keep going. What happened?

20:41

None of your business. It was intentional. I have my

20:43

own life. I

20:46

think you think that's what a peacock sounds like. Blop, blop.

20:49

Oh, nope. Okay. So she's walking around

20:51

and building this company

20:54

and just

20:57

keeps getting bigger and bigger. And then

20:59

she had some really powerful

21:02

investors.

21:04

It was, wow. Can

21:10

you hear me? Drink water? I can.

21:13

I'm a loud swallower. Are you? Yeah,

21:15

and sometimes if I- Blop, blop.

21:20

I remember shooting a movie.

21:22

Oh, Memory Lane. It's

21:27

very big. Speaking

21:29

of cats, it wasn't a fantastic

21:31

movie called Dying Lives. It was about a cat

21:34

that could talk. I have been made so congrats

21:36

ahead of time. I was great in that

21:38

movie. Were you a cat? No,

21:41

I was not a cat, but this

21:44

is slightly interesting that the cat-

21:47

Well, I think that's what everyone tuned in for was

21:49

slightly interesting side notes. Kevin

21:52

Spacey turned into a

21:54

cat. And the only person

21:56

that could understand him was Christopher

21:59

Walken.

22:00

This is true story. You can Google

22:02

it. These people were cast

22:04

in the movie as well? Yes, with

22:06

Jennifer Garner. This is a real movie.

22:09

But the point of the story is Tig, not to

22:11

get sidetracked on the movie. I

22:13

had a scene where at the end

22:15

of the scene I would

22:17

take a swallow of

22:19

my drink. Oh, right, right. Let's hear it again.

22:21

Okay. And it was like this. And

22:26

everybody could hear me swallow and the whole crew

22:28

would laugh every time we did a take. And

22:30

it got to the point where I didn't want to swallow because it was

22:33

humiliating. Please don't leave any detail

22:35

out of this story.

22:40

Anyway, that's the whole story.

22:43

I'm not saying it's a good one. I'm just saying I know I'm allowed

22:45

to swallow. I just want to reach out

22:47

to our listeners right now that are maybe

22:50

on a subway going to work or driving

22:52

in their car or walking through

22:54

the neighborhood. Trying

22:56

to lose the last five pounds that they

22:59

gained in 2020.

23:00

We see you.

23:02

We

23:03

feel you. We

23:04

apologize. Okay.

23:08

Listen, we got to get back on this train. Do

23:10

you want to tell the people some

23:12

of the... My

23:14

boring story? Oh, we

23:18

cannot. One time.

23:20

No, we can't handle another boring story. We

23:22

just can't.

23:25

No, some of the people that got

23:27

involved were... They

23:30

were from Apple.

23:32

They were from Wells Fargo. Henry

23:34

Kissinger. Yes. A lot

23:37

of big shots. A lot of big

23:39

shots. And then also

23:41

this guy, Sunny, who

23:43

was the president and COO,

23:46

she started... Getting it on?

23:48

Yeah. Yeah.

23:51

Which was interesting. And

23:54

you know, they didn't seem

23:56

like a likely couple, but also... No.

23:59

I

24:02

don't mean this in a bad way. Not

24:04

everybody has to- She means this in a bad way.

24:08

Not everybody has to have a sexual...

24:13

This

24:15

is very hurtful, what you're saying.

24:17

Not everyone has to be sexy.

24:20

Right, no, absolutely

24:22

not. But also,

24:24

you know how some people you meet and you're like,

24:27

oh, just like not a- You can't

24:29

imagine them sexual in

24:32

any possible way. Yeah, with any male,

24:34

female. Any person

24:36

thing. And you're saying

24:39

she has that vibe. Yeah, did

24:41

you not get that vibe from her? Yeah,

24:45

I can't imagine being drawn to her

24:48

in any other way except

24:50

for whoa. I

24:54

would like for her to be in a glass box

24:57

and just watch her, like

24:59

she's a lizard or something. Yes, because she's

25:01

so interesting that she doesn't

25:04

blink and she talks really low

25:06

and you feel like, oh, she

25:09

must know her shit because

25:11

she's got the black turtleneck on

25:13

and her hair is back in a bun

25:15

and she's like- I'm sorry, but

25:18

those aren't the things that indicate-

25:21

They are, they are indicators. Oh,

25:23

look at her with her hair back

25:25

in a bun, with a turtleneck

25:28

on.

25:28

She must

25:30

know what she's doing. And a little brace

25:32

and she's telling you all about her nano

25:35

lily-doots? Nano tainer?

25:38

Nano lily-doots. Yeah,

25:40

no, I don't find, I was not

25:42

attracted to her. What about Sunny?

25:45

Were you attracted to Sunny? Sunny's a man. Sunny

25:47

is a man. Doesn't matter, we're just painting

25:49

a picture for you. I was crazily attracted

25:52

to Sunny. I love you. Oh my God.

25:54

I really wish so.

25:59

episode we discuss who we were

26:02

or weren't attracted to in the documentary.

26:07

And it's always just people

26:09

not even trying to catch our eye

26:11

or anyone's eye. We're just like,

26:14

I don't know. I kind of thought he was cute

26:16

or, oh yeah, no, she was hot. What

26:20

on earth? These

26:22

poor people, they're documenting their lives. I

26:26

don't want to hear.

26:27

Somebody's

26:29

documenting these poor people's lives

26:32

and we are critiquing whether

26:34

or not they're sexy.

26:36

No

26:39

wonder people write in irritated,

26:41

you know, thinking this is going to be some movie review.

26:48

First of all, this is not a movie review. And

26:52

second of all, we are here

26:54

to discuss who is and is not

26:57

sexy in their documentary.

27:00

You

27:03

know what? It

27:05

happens. It comes up and we have to deal

27:07

with it. We have to deal with it. It's

27:10

right in our faces. But I like that

27:12

it only comes up because we ring it up. Nobody's

27:16

asking. I

27:19

mean, there's not one. There's

27:22

not one listener out there that we're first

27:24

of all, end of sentence.

27:28

But there's nobody who said, can you

27:31

guys talk more about if you think

27:33

that people are attractive or not? Oh,

27:37

God, not just attractive,

27:40

but sexy.

27:41

It's

27:43

not just how are their facial features because we're not even

27:45

talking about that. We're

27:48

not talking about their figure.

27:50

We're not talking about their bone structure. We're

27:52

saying,

27:53

do they have sex appeal? Yes

27:55

or no. But this is a good question.

27:58

Do you think that sex appeal is a good thing?

27:59

appeal has to do with looks? No,

28:02

I think it can be. It's that initial,

28:05

oh look at that, you know, oh

28:07

your bones formed that way so

28:10

I think you might possibly be interesting.

28:13

But then, you know, there's

28:15

humor and there's intelligence.

28:18

Yeah, that you find sexy. Yeah. Do

28:20

you think Larry David is sexy?

28:25

Um, why

28:28

are you asking me? Oh, because

28:31

he gets girls. Yeah.

28:34

I mean, girls are nuts about him.

28:36

Girls are nuts about him. Yeah.

28:39

Like Jennifer Lawrence thinks he's sexy. Uh-huh.

28:42

Amy Landecker dated him. Yes.

28:45

And she's very sexy. Okay.

28:48

We've, we're taking it to, okay, we got to get

28:50

back on this anyway. Wow. So

28:52

your type is

28:54

Elizabeth Holmes and Amy Landecker.

28:57

Interesting. I never said Elizabeth

29:00

Holmes is, uh, I would

29:02

not make out with Elizabeth Holmes. But

29:04

you'd make out with Amy Landecker? Yeah, I think

29:06

I would.

29:07

I mean, if the time was right. Listen,

29:10

it's right. Like

29:12

if Amy brought you over and lit some candles.

29:16

I don't know what this feels right. If

29:18

my house was on fire and

29:21

Larry Trump, what is happening? I

29:24

have to wedge a Larry David imitation

29:27

in. Yeah, that was perfect. What

29:29

are you doing? Why are you making out

29:31

in my house? Can you do one? No,

29:34

I can't follow that because you nailed

29:36

it. Right. Huh? Huh?

29:38

Well, what's going on? Okay. I'm

29:41

not going to try. Wait, who is that? Shut it. Wait,

29:45

no, truly. Who was that?

29:47

Tig. Tig.

29:49

Yes. Let's get back on track. Okay.

29:52

So now she's got a boyfriend. Elizabeth.

29:55

Amy Landecker. No, Amy's married. No. Amy is married

29:57

now.

29:58

Yeah, too

30:00

bad. Um. Pfft.

30:03

Too bad, so sad. I missed

30:06

my opportunity. Yeah, right

30:08

when you think the time is right. By

30:11

the way, I am also married. Yeah, but

30:13

it sounds like you're real willy nilly, you

30:15

know.

30:18

Podcast to podcast, you're jumping around

30:20

from the lead singer Metallica

30:23

to Amy Landecker. I mean, I'm alive.

30:26

Mm-hmm. Okay, so listen.

30:28

So at some point Theranos. She's alive.

30:31

She's,

30:32

I'm looking at her on Zoom. She's

30:36

alive. Theranos signs a contract with

30:38

Walgreens. While they

30:40

were struggling to

30:42

fix their Edison machine.

30:44

Facts machine. Can we just be honest?

30:47

Facts machine. Mm-hmm. You wanna hear

30:49

one of the engineers talk about the

30:51

broken and dangerous Edison machines.

30:53

Let's hear that.

30:55

You're handling a lot of fluid in

30:57

the machine. Things got blood

30:59

spilled all over them and got gunky. Some

31:03

of the donors that we had were, you know, just people

31:05

off the street who need money. And

31:07

I imagine that, you know, there probably

31:10

was a fair amount of hepatitis and

31:12

things like that. And the device would

31:14

freeze up in the middle of running a test. And then

31:16

I would have to reach in there with my

31:18

hand. There were needles within

31:21

the device that could puncture skin.

31:24

Wow. Mm-hmm.

31:25

I don't really wanna hear the word gunky. Why?

31:29

I was getting my blood taken. Gunky? Yeah.

31:32

He said it got gunky. Mm-hmm. So

31:34

this is what was happening inside the Edison machine. While they're

31:36

selling it to Walgreens. And at the time,

31:38

this is like one of the biggest companies.

31:41

The company was worth $9 billion.

31:44

Mm-hmm. $9 billion. And

31:47

so what happened when they started

31:49

putting these Edison machines into Walgreens,

31:52

and the idea was people would go in there, get

31:55

a little pinprick of

31:56

blood, put it in this machine, and find

31:59

out what's wrong.

31:59

with them, but

32:00

the machines weren't working.

32:04

And so they would have to take blood. People

32:07

would go in there and like, okay, roll up your sleeve

32:09

because we have to take a lot of blood from you.

32:12

And people were like, wait a second. I thought I was just getting,

32:15

you know, the little pinprick and they were like, no, things

32:17

change. Don't worry about it. Things

32:20

change. Don't worry about it. And

32:23

they're still going along with this. When

32:25

this was going on, were you aware of it? No.

32:28

Were you aware? And do you feel

32:31

like you would have fallen for this? You

32:33

mean if I walked into Walgreens and I was buying a

32:35

toothbrush and I was like, oh, I'll get a, let

32:37

me just check my blood real quick. You mean

32:39

that? Or you mean if I was at Silicon

32:42

Valley and I had $300 million to invest?

32:45

I guess there's no reason to not fall

32:47

for it. But I just mean, do

32:50

you think it would have spoken to you, this company?

32:52

I like the idea of it. I do

32:54

like the idea of it. And everything,

32:57

there are so many things that are so small,

33:01

like, you know, microchips

33:03

and things that are so tidy that I don't

33:05

understand. I honestly don't even

33:08

understand most things. Like

33:11

our computer. I don't understand how

33:13

it's all coming in and how

33:15

it goes through the air. I don't understand it. Do

33:18

you understand it? No,

33:19

of course not. I don't understand

33:21

most things. Right. So

33:24

if somebody said, hey, I know a

33:26

lot about this. I would say great.

33:29

Right. I'd say, all right, I'll

33:31

pinprick it. Yeah. I feel like this

33:34

could have, if I had known about it, spoken

33:37

to my vulnerability.

33:38

Yes. Because

33:40

of having medical issues and I

33:42

would have thought, oh, this is really great.

33:44

This is really helpful. I'm glad I didn't know

33:47

about it. Right. Because I

33:49

just, I was thinking so much about people

33:51

that were getting their hopes up

33:53

or they were just too invested in

33:55

it. Well, also you're right

33:58

about people being vulnerable.

33:59

because I think a lot of people

34:02

that were going to Walgreens to test

34:04

their blood, they were probably

34:07

people who didn't have the

34:09

resources to spend hundreds,

34:11

if not thousands of dollars to go have 200

34:13

tests done. And

34:16

that's why she drew

34:18

a lot of people in because

34:20

she was also saying that it was like a

34:22

human,

34:24

what's the word, when you look out for other

34:26

people? Friend,

34:28

a human friend. Human

34:33

rights. She's like a

34:35

human friend. She was like a human friend.

34:44

I'm Dr. Doug Newton, Chief Medical Officer

34:46

at Sondermind, an in-person and virtual

34:48

provider of mental health care. At Sondermind,

34:51

we connect you with the clinician that's right

34:53

for you.

34:54

Visit sondermind.com and schedule a session

34:56

in less than 10 minutes. Therapy

34:58

works.

35:04

I hope a lot of people hear this one because

35:06

we are nailing it. Just

35:09

that she was like a human rights person.

35:11

She was saying,

35:13

even people that don't have much money, they deserve

35:16

to be able to check their health, to be able

35:18

to get out in front of a disease

35:21

that they might have. So I think that really

35:23

spoke to people and they felt like, oh my

35:25

gosh, yes. Because that was the idea too

35:28

in her TED Talk. If people

35:30

would know about their disease earlier

35:33

on, they might've been able to do something

35:35

about it. So I think that really struck people

35:38

and people were excited about that. It's very appealing.

35:40

Yeah, very. The idea of it. It's

35:43

just,

35:43

when I was watching this

35:45

movie, I was just picturing Willy

35:47

Wonka having some

35:49

closed door and behind it, he's

35:52

like, it's a spaceship boat

35:55

car. It's a modern

35:57

day spaceship boat car.

35:59

me your money now and you know,

36:02

everybody, oh, let me have a peek. No, not yet.

36:04

Can't have a peek. Give me your millions. And

36:07

and then you open the door and there's,

36:09

you know, a

36:10

kazoo on the floor.

36:14

And there's like some guy like

36:16

on a bike, like creating the energy

36:18

to run the little kazoo. But

36:22

she had built she had built

36:25

an amazing company structure.

36:27

I mean, people walked in and they were very impressed

36:30

with it. And

36:31

even she went to the link

36:34

to when people walk in to see,

36:36

you know, what she was doing, she would draw

36:38

their blood, she'd pinprick their blood

36:40

to

36:41

show them how it works. She'd

36:44

give them a tour around the

36:46

property. And meanwhile, she

36:48

told them that she was checking it

36:50

with her Edison. But

36:53

she was using a kazoo.

36:55

She

36:59

was using machines that were commercially

37:02

sold to check all

37:04

their blood and then say, oh,

37:06

this is how you turned out. She still stands

37:09

by her product. I know I'm jumping

37:11

ahead, but it's hard not to. She still

37:13

claims to have told the truth. She still

37:16

claims her fax machine and

37:18

kazoo work and

37:20

can tell you if you have AIDS,

37:23

cancer, herpes. When I saw

37:25

that people were getting their blood tested

37:27

while they were on the tour, does

37:30

it seem weird to get a blood test back

37:32

when you're just taking a tour of

37:34

someplace and they're like, oh, we tested you for 200

37:37

diseases and here's what you have. Now

37:39

let's go get a coffee. Yes. Is that weird?

37:41

Yes. Is that weird to you? You have cancer, AIDS

37:44

and herpes. Do you want

37:46

a latte or a chai

37:48

tea? That seemed like

37:51

weird. Like they should have

37:53

a therapist or something in case

37:56

you have a massive diagnosis.

37:58

Yeah. They're just assuming that.

37:59

Everybody's blood is gonna be perfectly fine,

38:02

that it's like a parlor game or something.

38:05

That sort of scared me. Yes. Okay,

38:08

listen. Do you wanna hear, people

38:10

are starting at this point to get a little

38:13

suspicious. For good reason. Listen

38:16

to the receptionist. She talks about

38:18

Elizabeth and when she went to interview

38:21

with her. And one of the things about Elizabeth

38:24

is that she feels very

38:26

present, you know, like eye

38:29

to eye,

38:30

don't look away type of person.

38:32

And I think that goes pretty far when people

38:35

are trying to convince somebody of something. Yeah, when somebody's

38:37

trying to trap you with their eyeballs. Look

38:39

away. Yeah, look away or start backing

38:41

up. Unless you're in a romantic situation,

38:44

you know. Then lean in. Yeah, lean in

38:46

to the eyeball trappings, but otherwise,

38:48

ski the little.

38:51

When I went on an interview, Elizabeth

38:54

was there. And I was a little surprised

38:57

considering I would be the low man on the totem

38:59

pole. I found out

39:01

later there was no one that got

39:03

past her in order to get hired.

39:07

I know this sounds odd, but my

39:10

first impression was that she

39:12

didn't blink. Doesn't sound odd.

39:14

No, and I like the photo that

39:17

they showed to prove she didn't blink. Was

39:19

it still? Of her,

39:21

with her eyes open. Yeah, it was still with her

39:23

eyes open. And that's their proof.

39:29

No more questions. Okay,

39:32

listen, they start getting paranoid.

39:36

Elizabeth and Sunny, because

39:38

people are starting to. Talk. Yeah,

39:41

and they start referring to each other as Eagle

39:43

One and Eagle Two. By

39:45

the way, can I just say. You want us to be called

39:48

that? As far as

39:50

code names and code words

39:52

go. Those are overused. They're

39:55

overused. Eagle is overused.

39:58

Like do something.

39:59

else. We should probably

40:02

rename this podcast Eagle Wand

40:04

and Eagle too. Why

40:09

would somebody use that? That's silly.

40:11

That's somebody that's been watching cartoons

40:15

to actually present that. Imagine

40:17

that you have a multi-billion dollar company

40:20

and you suggest to somebody with a straight

40:22

face. Like say you and I started

40:25

a company and we were getting paranoid.

40:27

Yeah. And I say

40:29

with a straight face, Cheryl,

40:31

we need to start going by Eagle

40:33

Wand and Eagle too. And

40:37

by the way, I like that everybody else

40:39

at the company is like, Tim,

40:41

Sam, Susan, Eagle

40:43

Wand, Eagle too. But what would

40:46

you say to me if I suggested we start

40:49

going by, like I have a

40:51

great idea, Eagle Wand, Eagle

40:54

too. What would you say to me? Well,

40:56

I feel like I'm a person that would be like,

40:58

look, if that means a lot to you, I'll

41:00

do it. I mean, do I think it's dumb?

41:02

Yeah.

41:03

I would think it's dumb, but I'd still, if it, if

41:06

it made you feel better. And how would you feel about

41:08

being Eagle too? I'd rather be Eagle Wand.

41:10

Well yeah, who wouldn't, but I'm going to fight you

41:12

to the end to be, I'm not

41:15

going to be Eagle too. Whoever

41:17

comes up with it. Is Eagle Wand.

41:20

They're the genius. Yeah.

41:22

Like, Oh, it's my, my ideas.

41:25

Obviously I'm Eagle Wand. I'm

41:28

Eagle Wand. I mean, why not just

41:30

come up with code names for yourself,

41:33

like

41:33

Thelma and Bob.

41:36

Why not Louise? You know what I mean? Well,

41:38

because he's a guy, I'm just saying. But

41:40

that would really throw people if they're like, okay, Thelma

41:43

and Louise making their entrance. Well,

41:45

I think it would, it would also stick out like

41:48

Eagle Wand and Eagle too. But if you said Thelma and

41:50

Bob are coming to the building, people would be

41:52

like, I don't give a shit about Thelma and Bob. That's

41:55

really smart, Cheryl. Thanks. Cuckoo

41:57

bird one and cuckoo bird two.

41:59

entering the building. Oh,

42:04

can I tell you? Sure. There's a point

42:07

in this documentary when people

42:09

are starting to worry they they're hearing

42:11

things, things are starting to come

42:13

apart a little bit and then the

42:15

FDA approves Theranos

42:18

to test for herpes.

42:20

And it was a celebration like

42:22

Mardi Gras in that building. How does the FDA

42:25

approve that? Yeah, that's good. I

42:27

seriously. And why only herpes

42:30

where they're like, okay, we'll give you herpes.

42:34

Yeah, what about the other 199 ailments that yeah, but we have

42:36

all the

42:37

faith in the world

42:40

that we can

42:43

detect a bubble on your lip. By

42:46

the way, also awkward

42:49

when these people are taking a tour

42:51

of the factory and they test positive

42:54

for herpes herpes.

42:56

Just that you get the herpes stamp.

42:59

I mean, it's like,

43:02

I mean, it's nothing about

43:04

this seems relaxing or I mean,

43:06

I would be terrified. Basically the herpes

43:09

tour,

43:10

right? You come out the other end and you

43:12

find out if you have herpes. Oh my

43:14

God. People with blisters on their lips come

43:16

through and find out

43:31

they do in fact have herpes.

43:34

Yeah, now it's 100%

43:36

sure they know. Could they actually

43:38

detect herpes or not? I

43:40

have no idea. That's a good question.

43:43

Thank you. I don't know that the answer that makes

43:45

me not trust the FDA. And

43:47

this is a time when we need to have faith in the

43:49

FDA. Yeah, not that there's a time

43:52

when we can be real loosey goosey with

43:54

the FDA. But yeah, it's where

43:56

we're in

43:57

crunch time. But

43:59

the thing is, is that They were sending

44:02

the blood off to get it checked

44:05

by these commercially sold machines.

44:09

Herpes machine.

44:10

Maybe their

44:12

herpes diagnosis

44:15

were always right on. How hilarious.

44:17

Oh yeah, that's what I thought. How hilarious

44:20

that this woman, Catherine

44:22

Henry Kissinger, and all these people,

44:25

all these old men

44:28

with billions of dollars and

44:30

so much experience and her fax

44:33

machine just tells you if you have herpes

44:35

or not. This is all

44:38

at Walgreens.

44:40

That's where you find out. It's

44:46

a nine billion dollar company.

44:50

At Walgreens. I

44:55

mean, so the

44:58

wheels are coming off. You have herpes.

45:01

I think they announced

45:03

it in this store. You have

45:05

herpes.

45:08

But

45:11

listen, seriously. During

45:16

all of this time, John Kerry-Rue

45:21

from the Wall Street Journal, he starts an

45:23

interview investigation.

45:25

And

45:29

he learns that the majority of the blood tests

45:31

are being done commercially.

45:35

Oh my God. And.

45:37

I can't get over a nine million

45:40

dollar herpes machine.

45:42

It's

45:45

been a very public way. She

45:48

had a TED Talk about the whole

45:50

operation, everything

45:53

that was put behind this. I

45:55

can't. I'm sorry. I don't know

45:57

why I can't move on from it all boiling down

45:59

to. a nine billion dollar

46:01

herpes herpes herpes

46:04

detector herpes detector it's

46:15

but like I said in this documentary

46:17

I just love the celebration that went on

46:20

when

46:21

they got approved

46:22

for herpes

46:25

ok listen so so

46:27

this guy starts doing this investigation

46:29

ok

46:30

I'm probably gonna have to sit out for

46:32

the rest of the show take

46:35

a knee um

46:38

and he starts I

46:40

think and I don't have herpes but I

46:42

feel like you know you have herpes when

46:44

your crotch is burning right

46:46

or you have a bubble on your lip or something

46:49

well I'm sure that

46:51

people would go get tested if

46:53

they felt like there might be an irregularity

46:56

somewhere I'm just saying

46:58

it probably doesn't need a nine billion

47:01

dollar herpes detector if

47:06

you have a symptom let's just

47:08

let's just say you probably have a herpes you're

47:11

gonna be okay but you don't need to

47:13

go to Walgreens and have it announced I guess

47:16

I'm just thinking also if

47:18

I started this company

47:21

and this machine and

47:22

I was it

47:25

all boiled down to herpes

47:27

detector I

47:32

just think of how embarrassing that

47:34

would be after doing Ted talks

47:36

and flying all around the world and having political

47:39

allies people invested

47:41

in you people are so invested

47:43

in everything you're doing detecting

47:46

her

47:47

listen

47:50

they were thrilled to get that approval look

47:54

I'm thrilled they got the approval look at

47:56

me I've never been so happy I think

47:58

that's the hardest I've left in

47:59

my life. That really got you. That

48:02

really got you. Please. Should we go into the

48:04

time I really got you? No. All

48:07

right. No. Everybody's

48:09

heard that story and it doesn't really go anywhere.

48:12

I know. But this

48:14

doesn't go anywhere. At least

48:17

it has to do with this

48:19

documentary. Barely. I'm

48:21

trying to get us back on track. Okay,

48:26

listen. So now this guy is

48:28

investigating her and

48:29

now Theranos

48:32

has a lawyer. Smartest thing they've

48:34

done. Yeah, but by the way, do you know how much

48:37

they spent

48:38

on attorneys? Nine billion. No,

48:41

but like 400 million. Anyway,

48:45

so he's starting to think, oh, wait

48:47

a second. This isn't adding up

48:50

and

48:51

their labs are inaccurate. And

48:55

they say that, I don't know why

48:57

this is all about sexual diseases.

48:59

If a hundred people, if a hundred people,

49:03

if a hundred people, listen,

49:06

syphilis is not having matter. But if

49:08

a hundred people with syphilis use Theranos

49:11

for tests, only 65 would come up positive.

49:15

So 35 people

49:16

would think, Oh, okay. I

49:19

thought I had syphilis, but I'm, I don't. Right.

49:22

The syphilis portion of this

49:24

podcast isn't nearly as funny

49:26

as as funny as the herpes. Okay. I'm pushing

49:30

through. I don't need you to go off on another. Well,

49:32

I don't need you to get mad at me for being so

49:34

happy. Well, listen,

49:38

we've got to tell people what happens

49:40

and it all ends up really positive. Walgreens

49:44

finally puts a stop

49:46

to Theranos centers. Sorry.

49:49

Find out that you have herpes

49:51

elsewhere. And

49:53

then John Kerry ruse, wall

49:56

street journal article was published

49:58

and then the FDA.

49:59

Oh, oh, oh. Bands

50:02

the nano-tainer. Oh.

50:04

Oh. You get handed herpes and you

50:06

get it taken right away. Yeah.

50:09

You have to rely on your burning

50:11

crotch. Just as an indicator. Yeah. The

50:14

CMS, I don't even know what CMS stands for,

50:16

do you? I don't know, but does anything

50:18

matter?

50:21

Does anything matter?

50:24

What is that? What are you talking about?

50:28

Just in the big picture of life. It's the exact same

50:30

thing. Does anything matter?

50:32

Does anything matter?

50:35

Why would you say that in

50:37

the middle of her? Why would you get

50:40

so upset and

50:42

take it so seriously and firstly

50:44

as you sit in your own closet?

50:48

Why would you say that

50:50

while we're recording our podcast?

50:53

Why would you dare say, does anything

50:56

matter? Shut up. Why

50:59

would you shut up? Does anything matter?

51:02

Oh my God. Oh my God.

51:05

So yeah, the CMS revoked it.

51:08

What do you think the CMS is? It's

51:12

so particularly funny to

51:14

see you cry out loud. Why

51:17

would you say, does anything matter as you sit

51:19

in your closet? Because you have to at

51:22

least act like it matters

51:24

for

51:29

this podcast. Okay,

51:35

I gotta pull it together. What do you think CMS

51:37

stands for? Ah, I think

51:40

it stands for countries most.

51:42

Center for Medical Services.

51:44

Is that right? I don't know. Center for

51:46

Medicare and Medicaid Services. Wow,

51:49

wow, okay. Centers for Medicare and

51:51

Medicaid Services. Okay, wow,

51:54

okay. Embarrassing. So.

51:56

Wow, I'm embarrassed. Does.

51:59

Does it really matter? Does anything really matter?

52:02

Not known for her impersonations.

52:07

It sounded like Larry David. That's

52:15

your go to and that's terrible. When

52:20

you imitate me, you do Larry David and

52:22

your Larry David is terrible.

52:26

Okay, listen, I'm winding. We've got to wind this

52:28

down. Okay. So now Elizabeth,

52:31

Elizabeth never admits to

52:34

doing anything wrong. No. And

52:37

instead she doubles down. She should have just

52:39

pivoted to I created a herpes

52:42

detector. That's

52:45

what she should have pivoted to.

52:48

It's just taken pride. Just been

52:50

like, look, if your

52:52

crotch is burning or you have a bubble on your

52:54

lip, let's send

52:56

it through the fax machine and I'll blow

52:59

the kazoo. If you have

53:01

peace.

53:02

Oh my God. She

53:04

should have done. She just should have taken

53:07

it on and been like, she didn't. She

53:09

didn't. She doubled down on her

53:11

lie to the world. She

53:15

introduced a new computer.

53:17

Oh, that looked exactly like

53:19

the Edison. It looked suspiciously

53:23

like the herpes detector.

53:27

It was called the

53:29

mini lab. And

53:32

at this point, also a fax machine.

53:34

Yes. Henry Kissinger, George

53:36

Schultz and David

53:38

Bowie's. David Bowie. How

53:46

are we getting? Come on. Does

53:51

anything matter? Oh my God. Oh

53:57

my God. You heard it. You heard it here

53:59

first. It was Henry Kissinger, George Shultz,

54:02

and David Bowie. They

54:06

all resigned. Listen, I'm

54:08

reading names from, maybe that's not how you

54:10

pronounce his name, boys, David

54:12

boys. I think

54:14

it's Bowie's. Doesn't matter. Does

54:17

anything matter? They resigned from

54:19

the board and then, oh,

54:21

this is sad. And then Elizabeth breaks

54:23

up and fires Sunny. Oh, that's

54:25

heartbreaking. Typical. I was not

54:28

expecting that. I cried so

54:30

hard when they split up. I was

54:32

going to ask you if you cried during this documentary. Cause

54:34

I know. I do. You're a crier.

54:37

I am a crier.

54:37

I like that every episode

54:40

we go over, did you cry? And who

54:43

are you attracted to? Like

54:46

any good, critics

54:50

would. Yes. Oh

54:53

my God. We sexualize

54:56

everybody.

54:57

And if we can't sexualize them,

55:00

then they are the least sexy person in the

55:02

world.

55:05

Okay.

55:09

In 2018, Theranos

55:13

dissolves and Elizabeth

55:15

and Sunny are charged. They

55:17

are charged with conspiracy and fraud.

55:20

Because by the way, I mean, it's really sad because

55:23

people were being misdiagnosed.

55:26

Except with herpes. Herpes, they were a

55:28

hundred percent on.

55:30

Yeah. But it

55:33

is a good question. Why did the FDA

55:37

out of all those 200 tests, why

55:39

were they like, you know what? They're pretty good at the herpes one.

55:42

They can definitely tell

55:44

when your crotch is burning and you have bubbles

55:46

on your lips. So anyway, as of

55:48

now, they've been charged with conspiracy

55:51

and fraud, but I guess they're not in

55:53

jail yet because they haven't been able to

55:55

go to court because of COVID. And

55:58

I'll put it out there, Elizabeth.

55:59

you're listening. Oh, God.

56:03

And we would love to chat. DM

56:06

us. We would love to chat. I

56:08

don't check my DMS. I have to be honest.

56:10

I don't either. Stephanie laughed at me because

56:13

she flipped through my Instagram and she

56:15

was like, you know, you have messages over

56:17

here. Never

56:18

even peekabooed over there. It

56:21

never crossed your mind. No. All right,

56:23

Tig, it is time for happily

56:25

ever after thoughts.

56:31

Would you recommend this to anyone, Cheryl? I

56:34

would recommend this to everyone. I love it

56:36

so much. But I am fascinated

56:38

by psychopath

56:41

sociopath. I think she's a sociopath,

56:43

right? Yeah.

56:44

She can lie and believe the

56:46

lie and tell people I think she's more

56:49

comfortable lying

56:51

than telling the truth, which I thought I

56:53

find fascinating. Would you recommend it? I

56:55

would. Yeah. I definitely liked

56:58

the documentary. I

56:59

would say, you know,

57:03

yeah, it wasn't one of my favorites,

57:06

but it was definitely interesting. Hmm.

57:08

Okay. And what's the biggest takeaway for you?

57:11

Well, I would hate to think that

57:13

with the loss of Elizabeth

57:16

Holmes in this medical

57:19

genre that, you know,

57:22

have we lost the world's

57:25

greatest herpes detector with

57:27

her? You know, that

57:29

it is a takeaway.

57:31

I leave this wondering, how

57:33

will we know? As Whitney Houston

57:36

once said, how will I know? Do you think she was talking

57:38

about a herpes detector? Probably. Maybe.

57:41

I think that's fair. And I,

57:44

you know, it's tough if we, if we

57:46

as a nation lost that, that's tough. So

57:49

one of the hardest things we're facing as a nation

57:51

right now is the loss of the $9 billion

57:54

herpes detector at the drugstore

57:57

at Walnut.

57:59

You have herpes. I

58:04

like that the little Edison machine

58:06

makes it announcement. Oh, you know what I

58:09

learned? I learned that if you're

58:11

lying, you should just keep your eyes

58:13

open and don't blink. Oh,

58:16

that's good. Yes. That was my takeaway. Do you

58:18

want to promote anything, Cheryl? No,

58:20

I'm good. Do you want to promote anything? I want

58:22

to promote this podcast, Tegan Cheryl,

58:24

True Story. True Story. Tell your friends. It's

58:27

real fun to record.

58:29

It's a delight reading messages

58:31

and comments. So please write

58:34

us, review us, keep telling

58:36

us what you think about

58:39

the documentaries.

58:41

And also we might

58:43

read your review or response

58:46

or email. That's true. Well, Cheryl,

58:48

let's wrap up. Yeah. And get

58:51

out of here.

58:52

And I need to go

58:54

lie down after laughing that

58:56

hard. My side hurts. That

58:58

was funny.

59:00

I yellow-elved. Yeah, but please don't ever

59:02

say that. I really hope we hear from Elizabeth

59:04

Holmes. Elizabeth. Yeah. Reach

59:06

out because we would love to hear your side of it. Yeah.

59:09

All right. Well, should we do it again? Yes.

59:12

Let's do it again. Let's do it again. Tegan

59:15

Cheryl, True Story is hosted by me,

59:17

Cheryl Hines and Tegan Otaro.

59:20

It's produced by Gabby Kofasich and

59:22

Thomas Willett, audio engineered

59:24

and edited by Thomas Willett with music

59:27

by David Sussan. Special thanks to Patrick

59:29

McDonald and Stephanie Allen. Follow

59:31

us on social media for updates and review

59:34

and rate True Story on Apple

59:36

Podcasts. We really appreciate

59:38

it. You can also email us at

59:40

Tegan Cheryl True Story at gmail.com.

59:44

Next week,

59:44

we'll be talking about some kind of heaven.

59:57

That was a Headgum Podcast.