0:01

Hello everyone, Marshall here. This week, Lindsay and

0:03

I are away for the holidays, and before

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all the festivities and food and all that

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stuff that you do during the holidays begins,

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we would like to thank

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you all for your support. It really

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means a lot, and if you would

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you're at the $5 level or higher, that

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is. As we mentioned last

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time, we're coming up on 150 episodes, and

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to celebrate our very next episode after this

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one is going to be a quiz show

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featuring trivia from across all nine seasons of

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Tumble, so be sure to brush up on

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your Tumble listening over the holidays. And

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before a quiz show and holiday break, we'd

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like to share one of our favorite episodes

0:54

from season seven, Do Dreams Have Meaning? Stay

0:57

tuned to find out the answer to this

0:59

age-old question, and from all of us at

1:01

Tumble, happy holidays. Hi,

1:07

I'm Lindsay. And I'm Marshall.

1:09

Welcome to Tumble, the show where we explore

1:12

stories of science discovery. Today we're

1:14

talking about the meaning of dreams.

1:16

Ooh, does this mean I get to share the weird

1:19

dream I had last night? Like I was walking down

1:21

the hall, but it wasn't really the hall, it was

1:23

like... Oh no, no, stop and hold

1:25

on to that for a bit. Because

1:27

we're going to dream land. We'll find

1:30

out how humans have found meaning in

1:32

dreams for thousands of years, and how

1:34

science has changed that

1:36

forever. Alright, let's get dreaming.

1:43

Support for this episode of Tumble

1:45

comes from Santiago Saw Things Differently.

1:47

This nonfiction picture book introduces kids to

1:49

Santiago Ramón y Cajal, a Spanish scientist

1:52

and artist who made a crucial discovery

1:54

about how our nervous systems work, and

1:56

won the Nobel Prize in 1906. who

2:00

has a street named Afton in Barcelona. Kachal's

2:02

true story demonstrates how science and

2:04

art can work together towards discovery,

2:07

inspiring readers to think outside the

2:09

box, just like Santiago did. Written

2:11

by Christine Iverson and illustrated by

2:14

Luciano Lozano and published by MIT

2:16

Kids Press, Santiago Saw Things Differently

2:18

is available now, wherever you get

2:21

your books. Today's

2:26

question comes from our listener, Abby. Hi,

2:30

my name is Abby. I'm eight years old,

2:32

and my question is, do

2:35

dreams have meanings? I think

2:37

that sometimes they do. Abby

2:40

even has an idea for how scientists

2:42

can learn about dreams meanings. I

2:45

think that scientists can find out by doing

2:47

CAT scans on people. She's

2:49

not talking about putting cats on people's faces

2:51

while they're sleeping, right? That sounds like a

2:53

terrible idea. She's

2:56

talking about using a machine to

2:58

look inside people's brains as a

3:00

dream. So let's ask our listeners,

3:02

what do you think? Do

3:05

dreams have meanings? And how do

3:07

you think scientists would find out? Think

3:09

about it. We'll be right back

3:11

with the neuroscientists as our guide

3:13

into dreamland. All

3:20

right, we got our PJs, we got our pillows,

3:23

and we're ready to dream. To

3:25

answer Abby's question, I called up

3:27

Siddhartha Ribiero, a Brazilian

3:30

neuroscientist. He studied the

3:32

science and the history of dreams.

3:35

I would say that I have very personal

3:37

reasons and very strong dream reasons

3:40

for why I am a dream researcher.

3:43

Dream reasons? What

3:45

is a dream reason? It's a

3:47

reason that comes to you in a dream, of course. Siddhartha

3:51

told me he's made some big

3:53

life decisions based on his dreams.

3:55

Wow, so I guess dreams clearly have a

3:57

lot of meaning for him. What

4:00

about dreams in general? How did he answer Abby's

4:02

question? Oh, I think she gave

4:04

a fantastic answer. They can have meaning. What

4:07

does he mean they can have meaning? Like, what

4:09

does that mean? And what do dreams mean? When

4:11

do they mean something and when do they not? What

4:14

do we mean when we say mean? Wait,

4:16

wait. Stop. Let's take a

4:18

deep breath, relax, and

4:20

let's begin our trip into

4:23

dreamland. Where

4:30

are we? And why is it so hazy around

4:32

us? And what is this beautiful music that I

4:34

wrote? We've traveled back in

4:36

time into the history of

4:39

dreamland at the very beginning

4:41

of dreams. Scientists believe

4:43

that dreaming evolved way before

4:45

humans. Dreaming is quite

4:48

old. Most mammals have some sorts of

4:50

dreaming. Yeah, I mean, I've seen pets

4:52

dream, so like dogs look like they're

4:54

chasing squirrels while they're lying down and

4:57

cats that are just like knocking things off

4:59

of counters. That's not true.

5:02

Well, scientists have actually found evidence

5:05

that all kinds of creatures are

5:07

probably dreamers. Other animals

5:09

like birds and reptiles and the octopus

5:11

and even the fruit fly can have

5:14

something like the kind of sleep that

5:16

we have when we have very strong

5:18

dreaming. What does a

5:20

fruit fly dream about? It's

5:22

like a giant rotting piece. Exactly.

5:25

So beautiful. Humans

5:29

are the only animals that are

5:31

able to share our dreams, which

5:34

is how we know about dreams

5:36

that were dreamed hundreds or even

5:38

thousands of years ago. When

5:40

we look into the literature,

5:42

the books that were written

5:44

in antiquity in ancient Babylon,

5:46

ancient Egypt, we'll see that

5:48

dreams played a very important

5:50

role in society in private

5:52

life, but also in public

5:55

life. People in ancient

5:57

civilizations wrote books about gods

5:59

and goddesses visiting them in their dreams

6:01

and telling them what to do. Yeah,

6:04

I mean in ancient stories it seems like dreams are

6:06

just like another place to ask if you should go

6:08

on the quest or find out how to conquer the

6:10

monster or just like learn how to

6:12

do laundry or something. Exactly.

6:16

Many cultures even today believe that

6:18

to dream is to visit a

6:21

spirit world. It's an

6:23

experience of going to another world

6:25

that supposedly existed forever where you

6:27

can find solutions for problems and

6:30

inspiration for overcoming challenges. So

6:32

people thought of dreaming as being able to

6:34

actually go to another place. That's kind of

6:37

incredible, like a magical nighttime place that we

6:39

all get to go. Yes,

6:41

but now it's time to travel

6:43

to the age of modern science

6:45

where we'll figure out how science

6:48

changed the meaning of dreams forever.

6:56

When the scientific revolution happened in the

6:58

16th and 17th century, scientists weren't too

7:02

interested in studying sleep or dreams.

7:05

I mean, they didn't believe in the magic of dreamland?

7:08

Absolutely not. And sleep

7:10

seemed really boring. People just assumed that nothing

7:12

was going on while we were lying in

7:14

bed for hours. But

7:17

that would change. There

7:19

were two moments. The first moment was at the

7:21

end of the 19th century. That's

7:24

when Dr. Sigmund Freud published a

7:26

book called The Interpretation of Dreams.

7:29

Oh, I've read that book actually. Oh,

7:31

really? Yeah. Yeah,

7:34

Freud is like the most famous psychologist of

7:36

all time and he was obsessed with dreams.

7:39

Yes, psychologists are like the doctors

7:42

of the mind. Freud's

7:44

patients would come and visit him in his

7:46

office. Often laying down

7:48

over some couch or something and they

7:50

are freely remembering. They are just telling

7:53

the dream and telling everything that comes

7:55

to their mind. people's

8:00

wishes and fears that they didn't

8:02

even know they had. So

8:04

he believed dreams definitely had meaning. He

8:07

would have definitely said yes to Abby's

8:09

question, but other scientists were

8:11

skeptical of Freud and his colleagues.

8:14

The science of their time didn't like

8:16

it because they thought that this was

8:18

bogus and that it was not quite

8:20

scientific. Yeah. I mean, he

8:22

would just sort of like listen and

8:25

observe his patients, but didn't really go

8:27

through much of like a testing process.

8:30

Yeah. And that's what the scientists said. They

8:33

were not really measuring anything. It was more

8:35

like an art of listening and making

8:37

sense. It had certain rules, but the scientists

8:39

at the time didn't think they were

8:41

good enough. Okay. So if

8:43

the most famous psychologist ever wasn't good enough,

8:45

what did scientists think is good enough? Well,

8:48

they wanted to see evidence,

8:51

not interpretation, data, not dream

8:53

reports. So 20 years

8:55

after Freud died, they got what they

8:58

were looking for. Because in

9:01

1953, scientists discovered the existence

9:03

of REM sleep. REM

9:05

sleep? Is that when you fall asleep to

9:08

the band REM? No,

9:10

it stands for rapid

9:12

eye movement. It was

9:14

discovered by a sleep scientist who was using

9:16

his eight year old son as a guinea

9:18

pig in a sleep lab. The

9:21

boy would sleep hooked up to a

9:23

machine that recorded his brain waves. And

9:26

a few hours into the night, his father

9:28

noticed that there was a whole lot of

9:30

activity going on in his son's brain and

9:33

in his eyes. The

9:35

eyes moved a lot, but the

9:38

body was very relaxed. Right.

9:40

So he was fast asleep, but

9:42

his eyes were moving as he slept. Yes.

9:45

During REM, your eyes go back and

9:47

forth like you're watching a very fast

9:50

tennis match. The sleep scientist

9:52

was super surprised by this. He

9:54

began to study it with other

9:56

scientists. They found that everyone

9:58

does this. from

12:00

a picture book, but teenage dreams are like a

12:02

bad movie where you get to the end and

12:04

you're like, what was that? Exactly.

12:07

Folks thought that kids had

12:09

to learn to dream and

12:12

that dreams didn't have much

12:14

meaning or complexity until they

12:16

got older. But

12:18

new research might change that idea. But

12:20

recently, some researchers have shown if you

12:23

record dreams not in the laboratory, that

12:25

if you go to the children's home

12:27

to record the dreams, they

12:29

are richer. They're more interesting. Huh.

12:32

Well, that's really interesting. But like, why

12:34

would that be? Well, sleeping and

12:36

dreaming in a lab is not the

12:38

same as sleeping and dreaming in your

12:40

own bed. For starters, you're in an

12:43

unfamiliar place. And second of

12:45

all, your head is actually wired to

12:47

a machine to monitor your brainwaves. It's

12:50

glued to your head, so it's not the

12:52

most comfortable thing. It would be

12:54

hard to sleep normally with a bunch of wires glued to

12:57

my head. It would definitely

12:59

affect your dreams too, right? I'd probably dream that

13:01

there were lots of wires in my head. There's

13:06

evidence that people's brains are actually

13:08

half awake while they're sleeping in

13:10

sleep labs. So now,

13:12

researchers are experimenting with different types

13:14

of equipment that can work in

13:17

homes and training parents to record

13:19

their children's dream report. And

13:22

you can then revisit those experiments and

13:24

do them again, measure again, but in

13:27

a more safe and comfy setting.

13:29

And that tends to make dreams

13:32

richer, more complex, more interesting, more

13:34

meaningful. More meaningful. So

13:37

what do dreams mean? We got to get down to this.

13:40

Each dream means something different to the

13:43

dreamer. But Sudhartha told me

13:45

there's a general rule about when

13:47

dreams have meaning. When

13:49

we have a lot of expectation, this is

13:51

when dreams tend to be most meaningful.

13:55

In other words, when we're looking forward to

13:57

something or have a big question that we're

13:59

trying to answer. our dreams

14:01

can help prepare us or find

14:03

answers. But when we

14:05

are going through like a boring

14:07

part of life and nothing really

14:10

new is happening, sometimes dreams seem

14:12

complete nonsense. So if we

14:14

don't have anything really going on, that's when you get

14:16

the weird dreams that just don't make any sense

14:18

or the ones that are super mundane where you're just

14:20

like having breakfast. Right.

14:23

And we know this by listening

14:25

to people's dreams like Freud did,

14:27

but also by using scientific

14:30

tools to measure dreams like

14:32

the neuroscientists who study the

14:34

brain itself. So it

14:36

all comes together, but how can we understand the

14:38

meaning of our own dreams? Well,

14:41

luckily, Siddhartha is sending us off

14:43

from dreamland with a guide to

14:45

finding meaning in our own dreams

14:47

in just three easy steps. First

14:50

of all, talk about dreams before you go

14:52

to sleep. Share the expectation that

14:55

you may have. You can make

14:57

a wish for what you'd like to

14:59

dream about, like going to visit a

15:01

friend or solving a problem. It

15:03

could set a direction for your dream. Super

15:06

cool. Then when you wake up,

15:09

this is the most critical thing. Don't

15:11

move. Stay quiet in bed and write

15:13

it down. Write out everything you can

15:16

remember. Once you're done, share

15:18

your dream with others. And

15:20

then start telling your folks what was

15:22

the dream about. Tell that to different

15:24

people. And then you probably will remember

15:26

more details as you start telling the

15:29

dreams. Friends and family may help

15:31

you figure out what the dream means as

15:33

you talk more and more about it. Siddhartha

15:36

recommends doing these steps after

15:38

every dream. It's like collecting

15:40

the pieces of a puzzle. If you have many

15:42

pieces, you kind of figure out the whole thing.

15:50

Well, that was a pretty crazy adventure

15:53

into Dreamland. Now that I'm back in

15:55

Awakeland. I think

15:57

we learned a lot on our trip through the

15:59

history. of Dreamland. Not least

16:01

of all, the fact that everyone

16:04

can explore and make their own

16:06

discoveries in their own Dreamlands every

16:08

single night. Listeners, let

16:10

us know if you start keeping a dream

16:12

diary like Siddhartha suggests, or

16:14

if you have more questions about sleep

16:17

and dreams. Send them to us at

16:19

[email protected]. We'd love to hear them. Sweet

16:22

dreams, everybody. Thanks

16:32

today to Siddhartha Ribiero, professor

16:34

of neuroscience at the Brain

16:36

Institute of the Federal University

16:38

of Rio Grande de Norte.

16:41

He's also the author of The Oracle of

16:43

Night, The History and Science

16:45

of Dreams, a great book for grownups.

16:48

And also a special thanks to Abby

16:50

for sending in her excellent question. You

16:53

can hear more from our interview with Siddhartha

16:55

in our special bonus interview episode available on

16:57

our ad-free Patreon feed. Just pledge one dollar

16:59

or more a month to listen to this

17:02

and all our other bonus episodes. You

17:05

can learn more about dream research,

17:07

including how Octopus's dream on

17:10

the blog on our website, sciencepodcastforkids.com.

17:12

We'll have more free

17:14

resources there. Sir

17:17

Robert Lents designed our episode art and

17:19

edited this episode. Eric Kuhn is

17:21

our engineer and mixer. I'm Lindsay

17:23

Patterson, and I wrote this episode. And

17:26

I'm Marshall Eskemia, and I made all of

17:28

the music. Tumble is a production of Tumble

17:30

Media. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for

17:32

more stories of science discovery. All

17:41

right, everybody. Here we are at the end

17:43

of the episode, and we all know what

17:45

that means. It's time to thank all of

17:47

our Patreon people for supporting our show and

17:49

to wish them a happy birthday. Once again,

17:51

as the year draws to a close, we

17:54

are just so thankful for everyone who has

17:56

supported us on Patreon, and I hope everyone

17:58

knows that we couldn't keep making the

18:00

show without support. Anyway,

18:03

here we go. Dear Ava

18:05

June, never stop asking questions. You could

18:07

make the next big discovery. And happy

18:10

birthday on December 27th. To Alice, mom

18:12

and dad are so proud of who

18:14

you are. Stay curious

18:16

and keep learning forever. And happy

18:18

birthday on December 28th. To

18:21

William, happy birthday on December 29th with

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love from mom, dad, and Jack. And

18:26

happy birthday on January 2nd. To Anna,

18:28

you're well on your way to becoming

18:30

a great scientist just like your big

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brother Charlie. Happy, happy birthday, Anna Bear,

18:35

from mommy and daddy. And a happy

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January 4th birthday to Ellie. Keep up

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your curiosity and love for science. Mom

18:42

and dad love you. Thanks

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to all of you and to everyone who

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