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with Viator. Hello

1:56

and welcome to another edition of Turned at a Pong.

1:59

I'm your host. Damian Abraham. What's going to

2:01

bring you a conversation with someone who grumbles

2:04

into punk, may or may not still be involved with punk,

2:06

but out of the life changed by the genre in

2:08

a major way. And today on the

2:10

show, someone who changed

2:12

a lot of their lives in a major

2:14

way. One of the OGs from one of

2:17

the original punk scenes, in my opinion, Craig

2:20

Bell of Cleveland

2:22

band, the mirrors of the

2:25

legendary Rocket from the Tombs,

2:27

also of the saucers currently playing with

2:30

the gizmos, the self assembly

2:32

saucer. This is

2:34

a good one. This is

2:36

why I do this thing, is so I can have these

2:38

sorts of conversations with these kinds of people. More

2:41

on that in one second. But first, if you want to

2:43

get in touch with me, head over to the email address,

2:45

turned out of punkpodcast at gmail.com.

2:47

That is run by my

2:49

brother and show producer and guest

2:52

Booker extraordinaire, Tristan Abraham, and

2:55

he will get the message to me. You

2:57

can find me on that Twitter thing

3:00

or that Instagram at left

3:03

for Damien. There is a YouTube

3:05

page, an Instagram page, TikTok

3:08

page, Facebook

3:10

page, all four turned out of punk. All

3:13

those can be found at turned out of

3:15

punk on those platforms. If

3:17

you want to support this show, tell

3:19

all your friends about it. Let them know

3:21

that you enjoy this podcast. I

3:23

also play in a band. You can find out

3:26

more information over at fucked up dot CC, like

3:30

shows and stuff that we're playing or

3:32

records that we put out merchandise. What

3:34

have you head over there.

3:38

All right. On to today's show. As I

3:40

said, off the top, this is why I

3:42

do this thing. Today we are talking to

3:44

Craig Bell of the

3:46

mirrors, of rocks and the tunes, of the

3:48

saucers, of, of just

3:50

like countless unbelievable bands. And the

3:52

Cleveland scene that these bands are

3:55

a part of to me is,

3:59

I'm not going to waste your time. You're gonna hear me talk about this

4:01

a lot in a second huge.

4:03

Thank you to friend of the

4:05

show William Sibley

4:09

Who helped set this up? He's helped us in the past

4:11

set up other guests too. So

4:13

this is like a huge Thank you to

4:15

William for this because I

4:18

ran into once you near hear this in

4:20

a second But I ran into Craig years

4:22

ago and as he walked away, I thought

4:24

oh my god I can't prevent instead of

4:26

a podcast with this guy, but here

4:28

it is. So, thank you, William you

4:31

can also find out more information about Craig

4:33

including a incredible selection of

4:35

Rock from the tombs a

4:38

merchandise and As

4:40

well as other projects that Craig's been involved

4:43

in including like an original saucer single that

4:45

are all very

4:47

fairly priced as Well

4:49

as the new records and some of the

4:51

newer projects that Craig's involved in as well

4:53

over at Craig Bell dot com

4:56

and There's there's

4:58

tons of stuff to look at it on this

5:01

website over there, but Craig is also findable on

5:04

Instagram over at Ev

5:07

com clam, sorry at E-v-c-l-a-m

5:13

and Check it

5:15

out. Check it out. Everything Craig does Maybe

5:18

I should explain rock room from the tombs

5:21

to people that don't know I feel

5:23

like this is now Kind

5:25

of just part of the lexicon for a long

5:27

time It wasn't but now it is rock from

5:29

the tombs not to be confused with Rock

5:32

from the crimp to are named in tribute to

5:34

rock from the tombs as you can hear on John Reese's up So

5:36

we talked about this Rock from

5:38

the tombs are one of the greatest bands of

5:40

all time like they would break up and

5:43

out of their ashes would come Genius

5:46

Peter Lautner Cut

5:49

way to shorten his

5:51

career by tragic circumstances,

5:53

but also paraboo as

5:56

well as the dead boys this

5:59

band Is one of

6:01

those great what could have been what should have

6:03

been in rock and roll as

6:05

well as the mirrors electric eels Like

6:09

x-blank acts Pagans

6:12

later on there's so much stuff in this

6:14

Cleveland scene that you you

6:16

need to dig into you know, I love Cleveland In

6:19

every era, but this era whoo foundational

6:23

Okay, I'm not gonna ramble on anymore Check

6:26

out Craig Bell calm. Thank

6:29

you again to William Sit back

6:31

relax. Enjoy Craig Bell unturned

6:34

out Great

6:40

thank you so much for coming on the show Well,

6:43

thank you, Damian Thank you for having me as

6:46

I told you off air that we this is

6:48

not the first time we have met and I

6:51

think I mentioned it you the first time that I met you

6:53

that you are an Incredibly important

6:55

person in not only my musical journey

6:57

But I think the journey of rock

6:59

and roll and so to finally

7:01

be able to sit down and talk to you for this thing That's

7:03

that's a huge throw for me. This is a big one well,

7:06

well, thank you, Jamie, and that really

7:08

is a very heartfelt and Humbling

7:11

humbling intro but I appreciate it.

7:14

Thank you very much And and

7:16

under the circumstance that we met

7:18

was was hilarious Anyway, I

7:20

was I remember at the end of

7:23

talking to you. I just turned around and said man.

7:25

I love Canada Who's

7:29

actually my my wife Lauren pointed out

7:31

and said That guy's over

7:33

there is wearing a pink gizmos t-shirt And

7:36

so I went up to you and I was like, oh

7:38

my gosh, like I can't believe that gizmos

7:40

t-shirt That's amazing. I'm one of my favorite

7:42

bands and you said oh, I play in

7:44

them and then you introduced yourself

7:46

and I was oh My

7:48

like the saucers like obviously rocket from

7:50

the two like there's just so many

7:53

different scenes and bands that you've been

7:55

involved with That I love

7:58

independently and to have them all connected

8:00

through you. This might be four parts in

8:03

the making, so I apologize in advance for

8:05

the length of this conversation. Oh

8:07

no, not at all. My

8:09

afternoon is free. Well, I gotta

8:11

start them off the way they all start off, which is Craig, how'd

8:13

you get in a punk to remember the first time you ever came

8:16

across it? Or the term even? Well,

8:19

the term, you know, the term had

8:21

its way different connotation when I started

8:23

playing music because I started in the

8:25

late 70s right out of

8:28

about a high school. I joined my

8:30

first band Mirrors in Cleveland and we,

8:32

you know, the term punk, wasn't really

8:34

around at that time. There

8:37

had been, it had been mentioned

8:39

in magazines here and there, but

8:41

you know, as for slapping it

8:43

on a certain genre, the genre

8:45

we considered ourselves was underground, which

8:48

was kind of the thing in those days

8:50

for bands that weren't, you know, weren't

8:53

of the mainstream people that we admired

8:55

people like, like the Velvet Underground and

8:57

what have you. So punk

9:00

didn't really come along until I had

9:03

moved to Connecticut, I guess right before I

9:05

moved to Connecticut when the Ramones came around

9:07

and that the term punk started getting thrown

9:09

around quite a bit more. Well,

9:12

I find it fascinating because you brought

9:14

the Velvet Underground and of course

9:16

the Stooges and the MC5. There's so

9:19

many, these proto punk bands. Old City

9:21

of Detroit. Exactly, but I think those

9:23

bands, their goal was to

9:25

become rock stars still, you know,

9:27

you see the old interviews with them and I

9:30

think it's fascinating because like you said, you guys

9:32

were described yourselves as being underground and I think

9:34

that's the birth of punk in

9:36

a way that the metric was

9:39

different with what you guys were

9:41

doing where it's... Well, no, I

9:43

can't cop to that because I

9:48

wanted to be John Entwistle skeet shooting

9:50

my gold records. I definitely want to

9:52

do that. I wanted to have a

9:54

stable of cars. I mean, I wanted

9:56

the whole, you know, the whole rock star thing. I mean,

10:00

the over the topness of it that came along later

10:02

than 1971. But in 1971, I mean, you know,

10:07

our goal was to get

10:09

signed to a major label, our goal

10:11

was to be able to make records and

10:13

be able to get our music out

10:15

in front of people and the more

10:17

people we get in front of the

10:19

better we that was our goal. Even

10:22

when I was playing with saucers and things like

10:24

that. I mean, we wanted to get in front

10:26

of people. And we wanted

10:28

people to hear what we were doing. I

10:33

kind of learned early on that, you

10:36

know, the success is, you know, hitting

10:38

that jackpot is like hitting the jackpot.

10:40

So the main

10:42

thing was the fire was there to go

10:45

and make the music, you know, and hopefully

10:47

the wealth would come. Well, I don't

10:51

know, I'm doing okay. I got this house.

10:53

Yeah. Well, I

10:55

as a long line of

10:57

people that's like, I'm doing okay. Through this

10:59

thing, I think the it's

11:02

it's sort of like, like what

11:04

you're describing, like what you wanted to do was

11:06

be like your heroes in these

11:08

bands that came before you. And I

11:10

feel like that's kind of like what this

11:13

genre is punk because there is obviously bands

11:15

that wind up getting massively commercially successful out

11:17

of this thing. Oh, yes. But for the

11:19

most part, it's just about contributing

11:21

to this history

11:23

and the zeitgeist and this energy that just

11:26

continues to kind of fuel bands

11:28

where, yeah, maybe we all ultimately

11:30

wish we were John Entwistle, you

11:32

know, shooting the gold record with

11:34

the speech. But there's also the

11:37

idea that there's another metric for

11:39

success, like the Velvet Underground. You

11:41

know, Lou definitely did some wild shit, but I don't know

11:43

if he ever got to that level with what he was

11:46

doing. But at the same time, they are

11:48

successful band because what

11:50

they did was was true and pure and still rings

11:52

true and pure to this day. And I and I

11:54

say the same thing about the stuff

11:56

you guys are doing in the mirrors like it wasn't

11:59

that kind of think that's what we

12:01

were striving for because, you know, especially

12:04

with mirrors, when Jamie and

12:06

Jim brought me into the band, I mean,

12:09

we were basically a

12:11

Velvet Underground cover band with a couple

12:13

other songs thrown in. And

12:16

we loved it and we admired these guys

12:18

so much and that music meant so much

12:20

to us and it resonates so much with

12:22

us that we wanted to bring it in,

12:24

filter it through us and push it back

12:26

out. And that's what we did and

12:30

that's what I've been doing since

12:33

then. You know, I mean,

12:35

I still my basic core when people ask

12:37

me, well, you know, what do you

12:39

sound like? And I go, I'm across between

12:41

the Velvet Underground, the Kinks and Creedence

12:43

Clear Water. And they look

12:45

at me funny and they think about it for

12:48

a second and they go, oh, yeah, you know,

12:50

and I'm thinking, yeah. So

12:52

what was your entry point to music,

12:54

I guess, going back to that? Just

12:58

like everybody else. Well, actually, the

13:00

the entry to me, initially

13:03

was the radio. I

13:06

remember when I was about

13:09

six years old, around 1958,

13:12

I lived

13:14

in Chiktawaga, New York. We're neighbors. Oh,

13:17

yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact, we

13:19

used to go up, I remember going up

13:21

to the beaches on Lake Ontario, in

13:24

Canada, because they were nice in the Lake Airy. But

13:27

I was very young then. But

13:29

I remember sitting at Memorial Day

13:32

and listening all afternoon to the Indy 500

13:34

on the radio. While you

13:37

know, we had a pool party with our neighbors

13:39

and things. But after that,

13:41

I became fascinated with the radio. And

13:43

I started listening and seeing how many

13:46

stations I could hear. So naturally,

13:48

I started listening to like the pop

13:50

music of the late 50s, early

13:52

60s and things like that. And

13:55

then what yesterday,

13:58

60 years ago was

14:01

the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. And just

14:03

like everybody, every other kid, that

14:05

was like, boom, that was it. You know,

14:07

I was ready. I was like, this

14:09

is interesting. This is something I want to

14:12

get, you know, I want to get to

14:14

know more about. And from

14:16

there, I think it was maybe

14:19

the summer after that, I went with a

14:21

friend to the movies to

14:23

see the Jerry and the pacemakers movie,

14:26

fairy cross the Mersey. Absolutely.

14:29

We sat through it like three

14:31

times. And on the way

14:33

home, I said to

14:35

my friend Dave, I said, you know, I think I want to

14:37

be in a rock and roll band. And

14:39

he goes, me too. So

14:41

we both started trying to figure out how

14:43

to do that. He eventually, he became

14:46

a drummer and he played for

14:48

a while, but I was kind

14:50

of hamstrung because my father was

14:52

not a fan of any

14:56

kind of rock music or anything. And the

14:58

idea of trying to get a guitar into the house

15:00

was not going to work out. He

15:03

suggested I play

15:05

some real music. So I took

15:08

clarinet lessons and things like that

15:10

through school. And so I got

15:12

a little rudimentary, you

15:14

know, into music itself. And

15:17

then after I graduated from high school,

15:20

that's when I started looking to join a

15:22

band and I ran into Jim

15:25

Crook one day, who was the lead

15:27

guitarist in mirrors. He

15:29

had been dating a friend of mine

15:32

through high school. He was a couple of years older than us,

15:35

but I met him. He went to a different

15:37

school, but I met him through his girlfriend, who

15:39

was a friend of mine. And

15:43

he had just come home from Vietnam. I

15:46

think it was in about April, May

15:48

of 71. And

15:50

the remnants of the

15:52

Velvet Underground without Lou, like Doug

15:54

Yule, and and I think Sterling

15:56

and and Walter

15:59

Powers and. Maureen Tucker played

16:01

Cleveland. So

16:03

I went to the show naturally and

16:05

Jim was there and I was like, oh

16:07

Jim, hey you're home, hey what are you doing? So you

16:10

know me and my friend, my friend Jamie are trying to

16:12

start a band and I said, oh I want to be

16:14

in a band. So that was it.

16:16

I you know they invited me over. We

16:19

sat around, played records, talked for a while and

16:21

they decided that I was going to be

16:23

in the band so that they handed me a

16:25

bass guitar. Jamie tuned it for

16:28

me, showed me you know how to tune it,

16:30

what each string was and then he just said

16:32

figure it out, figure out the rest of it

16:34

for yourself. So

16:36

you know started playing with those guys and

16:39

my friend Michael joined us as a drummer.

16:41

He wasn't even a drummer, he was a

16:43

guitar player in a preview in

16:45

a band in high school that I used to hang

16:47

out with. They're like I would be there roadie since

16:49

I couldn't you know play. And

16:52

what band was that? Pardon me?

16:54

What band was that? Did they have a name?

16:56

That was Mirrors. Oh the pre the high school

16:59

band? Yeah, yeah. It was called the River's Edge

17:02

and it was like a high school cover band

17:04

that Mike Weldon played the guitar in. Okay.

17:08

I was looking at Dave like Paul Marotta

17:11

had a like he had the tool record that

17:13

he put out right? And then there's and

17:16

Peter Loner. Oh you have one

17:18

right here? Right here

17:20

in this box I've got one of those. Oh man

17:22

there's that one song, I've only heard the one song

17:24

that I that's out on YouTube but that song is

17:26

so great. It's got that line tune

17:29

it tune out on acid, tuning my

17:31

guitar. What a great line. It

17:34

was you know it was quite a feat

17:36

at the time that Paul put that record

17:38

out because

17:40

people just weren't doing that. Same thing

17:42

with Peter Lopner. He put

17:46

out this album called Notes on a Cocktail

17:48

Napkin. Probably I don't know 72,

17:50

71 somewhere

17:54

around in there. I think it's 70 even.

17:56

I like I was just because I was looking it up today before

17:58

I got on the phone with you like it is Yeah,

18:01

like it like arguably the first two

18:03

DIY records for punk kind of thing

18:05

all proto-punk obviously, but yeah Well, it

18:07

was but it was quite I mean

18:10

just at the time the idea I

18:12

mean in mirrors we'd sit around

18:14

go though man. We'd like to

18:16

make a record. How do you make a record? You

18:19

know, that's why you said you got to get signed to a

18:22

record company. They're the people that make the records We don't know

18:24

how to make records. How do you make a record? You

18:27

know and and that kind of that was

18:29

one of the great things about the punk

18:31

move was that people just said screw

18:33

it We're gonna make a

18:35

record and and by the time

18:37

I got to Connecticut People

18:40

were doing that and I met

18:42

some of them So, oh, how do you do this

18:44

and they say oh you said it here do this

18:46

or back at trouser press? magazine, they'd

18:48

have a ad for some

18:50

place and that's how the first saucer single

18:53

came around was Just

18:56

you know the whole DIY move Yeah,

18:58

cuz it's like you're saying it was so hard to put

19:00

a record It's hard today

19:02

to put a vinyl record, but back then it was

19:05

like it's next to impossible There's no internet

19:07

to turn to there's no roadmap to follow.

19:10

No, but there was there was a a

19:14

Collective of fanzines and

19:16

and Network of

19:19

people and things like that you had to

19:21

really dig deep to get out of your

19:23

own little area But even

19:25

like when the first saucer single I

19:27

took it around every college radio station

19:29

in southern New England personally I

19:32

took a box of Knapsack full of them

19:34

down to New York one day and spent

19:36

a weekend walking from the top of Manhattan

19:39

Well subway and walking the top man

19:41

had in the bottom going to every

19:43

record store trying to get some in

19:46

on even on consignment Peter

19:48

Horse Apple From

19:52

the DB's yeah Was

19:54

working at a record store somewhere in

19:56

Manhattan and bought and

19:58

bought five copies from me.

20:01

He was the only person who

20:03

actually bought them. He actually

20:05

financed my weekend in New York

20:08

by buying those five records so I had

20:10

enough money to eat something. And

20:13

this is how you

20:15

would send, I remember sitting

20:17

and stuffing records into envelopes

20:19

with a letter and sending them all

20:22

over the country, all over the world.

20:25

That's just what you had to do and

20:27

hope that somebody would write you back. I

20:31

find that so interesting too because you guys

20:34

have that network and obviously that network becomes

20:37

what punk and hardcore still built on

20:39

to this day. Yes, absolutely. That was

20:41

the foundation. There was a lot of

20:43

people like Greg Shaw and the

20:46

guy who started SST, the

20:49

folks that ran Homestead

20:51

and things like that. I mean

20:54

they were real pioneers, young people

20:57

wanting to break out

20:59

the stranglehold that

21:02

the big labels had on people and

21:04

to a certain extent they did. I

21:07

know there was, going back to even

21:09

pre-SST and pre-Homesed, going back to when

21:11

you guys were first starting out, I

21:14

found there was some connection through fanzines

21:16

with Simply Saucer and

21:18

The Nerves and some of these

21:20

other bands that were proto-punk,

21:23

Gizmo's I guess also part of

21:25

that thing too. There is seemingly

21:27

contact, right? Were you guys aware of some

21:30

of these other bands that were popping up around then? I guess

21:32

no one had records really though. I

21:34

was always aware of The Nerves in

21:37

the early 70s. When I moved

21:39

to Connecticut I became aware of

21:41

The Nerves. And

21:43

through magazines you heard about other

21:45

bands also but you may

21:48

not have heard their music until later. A

21:51

lot of times now Simply Saucer, I

21:54

happened to meet Edgar, him

21:57

and I were both members

21:59

of the Sid Barrett family. fan club. So

22:02

that's when we first met each other. That

22:05

was probably as pen

22:07

pals 1973. And

22:09

he was taught writing me telling me

22:12

how he was just starting up, you

22:14

know, simply saucer with

22:16

his brother and some friends. And I

22:19

was telling him I just I had was

22:22

just about to get out of the army. I

22:24

got out of the army in the beginning of

22:26

1974, and went back to Cleveland

22:28

to rejoin mirrors. So that late 73, early

22:30

74, I was telling him, Yeah, I'm going

22:34

home, I'm gonna get back with the band, we're

22:36

gonna, you know, see what happens. It's

22:39

awesome, too, because there's this energy that happens almost around

22:41

the world, too, when you look at like, Australia

22:44

with the Saints and things like that around 7475,

22:46

it just

22:49

starts kicking up where, and

22:51

I guess prior to that, too, with you guys,

22:53

that there's this sort of youth culture,

22:57

spontaneous worldwide emergence. Yeah,

23:00

well, I mean, as I think

23:02

as we grew, because this baby boomer

23:06

generation was such a large group of people

23:08

that, and we started moving

23:10

along the technology was there, you know, you had

23:12

the you had the people that could print and

23:14

distribute fanzines. So now you

23:16

had, you could write to

23:19

these guys, you know, at trouser press

23:21

or fusion or phonograph

23:23

record magazine or whatever it

23:26

was, opt or what

23:28

have you, and send them your records.

23:31

And a lot of them would review them,

23:33

and they would and you could put an

23:35

ad in there and get, you know, your

23:37

word out a little bit further. So

23:39

there was a there was a conjunction

23:42

of not only the musicians making the

23:44

music, but there were people that were

23:46

promoting the music and writing about the

23:48

music, they everyone was starting their own

23:50

little journey in the music business, be

23:54

it on whatever level. And

23:56

they all came together and was kind

23:58

of like a movement. And

24:01

it also feels like it was the birth

24:04

of a music

24:06

made by critics or music made by music

24:09

obsessives where like

24:11

you're saying, like you guys were deep heads, you knew about the Velvet on the

24:13

Ground. This isn't necessarily commercial music

24:15

at this point. There's an awareness of

24:17

free jazz music. There's people pulling from

24:19

independent places all over the world and

24:21

kind of putting together this sort of

24:23

like Sid Barrett, like what a touchstone

24:26

Sid Barrett was and Post

24:28

Pink Floyd stuff that he did for people. And

24:30

it just feels like it

24:33

was the birth of the critical

24:35

musical culture, which once again permeates

24:37

punk rock, I think to this

24:40

day where obsessive music

24:42

fans taking a

24:45

deliberate approach to making this music as opposed

24:47

to a commercial approach. I

24:51

think that's true, but I also believe

24:53

that that is something that had been

24:55

percolating, you know, like especially like in

24:57

the R&B groups and things like that

24:59

coming out of the post war era,

25:02

did not know that much about it

25:05

at the time that we were doing it.

25:07

But as I've gotten older, and of course,

25:09

the ability to gather

25:12

information has gotten better and better.

25:14

I have read where basically like the

25:17

blues guys in the R&B and folks

25:19

and stuff like that, they were doing

25:21

the same things that

25:23

we did in

25:25

their own cultures to establish their

25:28

genres of music. I

25:31

think it's just, I think

25:33

the ability to make music progress

25:36

just as alongside the technology to

25:38

get the music out to people.

25:41

I mean before the radio,

25:43

music was pretty much confined to

25:45

people's parlors with a piano or

25:47

maybe a banjo. And

25:50

after that, you had radio in the house and

25:52

then there was more music than you had a

25:54

television, then you had tapes,

25:57

DVDs and monograph records.

26:00

Now you've got that monstrous

26:02

obelisk over there that has

26:04

just more stuff than I

26:06

ever watched in my lifetime

26:09

on it, my fingertips. This

26:11

computer at my fingertips has more stuff

26:13

than I've even could ever

26:15

imagine than I could have accessed when I

26:17

was just first starting out this. So

26:20

I think that that has a lot to do with

26:22

it is that how the technology and

26:25

community and everything has worked together in

26:28

a progression, getting bigger

26:30

and bigger, intermingling, meshing. We're

26:34

learning from the people that came before us

26:38

kind of thing and the people going

26:40

forward are, using

26:43

what we brought to the table. You're

26:46

right. It definitely is a technology like

26:48

you mentioned before, like the advent of the photocopier and

26:51

the ability for this independent media. And

26:54

the tape a few years later and the

26:56

tape explosion was huge to metal.

26:59

Cassette tapes are probably

27:02

one of the biggest, biggest boons

27:04

to the independent music

27:07

industry ever. I

27:10

have an album called

27:12

AKA Darwin Lane that I put out

27:14

a few years ago and everything

27:16

on it was recorded in the late 70s,

27:19

early 80s and I had been carrying it

27:21

around on cassettes,

27:24

these different recording sessions of different bands I've

27:26

done. And here in the

27:29

2000s, I was able to

27:31

take those old cassettes to

27:33

a studio where they could clean them

27:35

up well enough to put out what

27:37

I feel is one of my best

27:39

records. Oh, it's amazing. I think it's

27:41

a wonderful record. I'm so proud of

27:43

that record and so happy that that

27:45

stuff has gotten out into

27:47

the world and to imagine that

27:49

it was just going around

27:52

and on a cassette all those years.

27:55

And without that cassette, probably

27:57

I never would have had a record of it. Yeah,

28:00

because there's a level

28:03

of economic means to put

28:05

out a vinyl record. And certainly there's economic means

28:07

to put out a tape, but the

28:10

barrier of entry is so low

28:12

and to produce your own music, record your own music,

28:14

capture it, you didn't need a studio anymore, you just

28:16

needed a tape deck and you could do

28:18

it all. Yeah, everything really

28:20

is. Technology

28:23

is just an amazing thing. We

28:26

could talk about any subject and

28:28

just think about the technology, how

28:30

technology has affected it. It's

28:33

just amazing. It's just fascinating times to be

28:35

alive. Absolutely. Well,

28:38

going back to the mirrors, like how

28:40

much touring were you guys able

28:42

to do or playing outside of Cleveland area? I

28:46

don't ever remember playing outside the county.

28:50

We did not play a lot of now. I

28:52

left the band in 1975 and the band went on

28:54

for a few more years.

29:00

Now they may have played other places,

29:02

but I don't know. I

29:05

wasn't involved in that. But even

29:07

with Rockets from the Tombs, the brief time

29:09

that we were together, we

29:11

did not really play outside of

29:13

the Cleveland area that much. When

29:16

I moved to Connecticut, it was a totally

29:18

different story. We played right from

29:21

the get-go, we were playing all

29:23

over Connecticut, up the

29:25

coast of New

29:27

England and down into New

29:30

York and down that way. I

29:34

think the opportunities were just there more, again,

29:36

a couple years along.

29:39

Yeah, it's so funny

29:41

because it is a short period of time when

29:43

you actually look at it a lot differently, but

29:45

the leaps that happened between 1974

29:47

and 1984 in terms of independent

29:52

music and the ability to tour and

29:54

do that stuff. Absolutely, yeah. It's

29:57

a massive 10-year period for that. the

30:00

electric eels were they kind of like I

30:02

know they only did the five shows but were they kind

30:04

of like compatriots I know there's an overlap with members and

30:07

things like that but were they oh yeah um

30:11

we all pretty much

30:13

went to school together especially

30:15

the eels myself Mike Weldon

30:18

Davey and John and Brian we're all

30:20

from from the same town

30:22

Lakewood next to Cleveland and

30:25

we all knew each other I've known

30:27

John since junior high school and

30:30

and yeah we were the

30:32

eels shared a rehearsal loft with

30:35

rocks from the tombs and

30:38

yeah everyone was sort of we that was

30:40

all part of our community it's

30:43

amazing with the rock from the tombs like

30:45

um Aaron Melnick from the Cleveland band

30:47

integrity was just on the show a couple weeks

30:49

ago and he and I were talking about when

30:51

you when you break down that rock from the

30:53

tomb stuff you've got in my

30:56

opinion the best dead boys

30:58

songs certainly a lot of my favorite

31:00

parabu songs and plus

31:02

pure lotner stuff like it's

31:04

there's it's if

31:08

there was an album that was able to come

31:10

out of that stuff it would be the greatest

31:12

punk record ever made like there's just it's

31:15

incredible how many and then you add on top of that

31:17

the electric eels you add on top of that all

31:20

the other bands x-plank all the other stuff that's

31:22

kind of like around you guys it's just such

31:24

a collection of incredibly

31:26

talented and uniquely minded

31:30

people that are are all in one place

31:32

at the same time like it kind of

31:34

boggles the mind it

31:36

did I think I think that being being

31:39

Cleveland had a lot to do that because

31:41

Cleveland at the time was just

31:43

a town that seemed to bring in all

31:45

the outside you know we were close enough

31:48

to New York to have be influenced by

31:50

New York we had whatever

31:52

was going on in the Midwest you know

31:54

Cleveland was always a big part of that

31:57

so you were you know it was a big

31:59

media town for the Great Lakes region and

32:01

things like that. So you were always hearing

32:03

what was going on from the

32:06

East coast to the Mississippi River,

32:08

basically, in terms

32:10

of popular entertainment or whatever, what have

32:12

you, popular culture. So

32:16

I think that that had a lot to do with that

32:20

the Velvets played Cleveland. I never

32:22

saw them back in their heyday,

32:24

but they played La Calve numerous

32:27

times. And I know that people

32:29

like Jamie and Jim and

32:31

Peter and many, many

32:33

other people saw a

32:35

lot of those shows. And that was a very

32:37

big influence on them. Yeah,

32:40

that's where we're going. And I

32:42

guess that's the other thing about Cleveland is it is

32:44

such a music town. To this day, there's like

32:47

a lot of really cool, interesting, specifically

32:50

rock music, but all kinds of music that comes out of

32:52

Cleveland. Yeah,

32:55

I have not lived in Cleveland for quite

32:57

some time, but I do

32:59

visit when I can. And it still is

33:01

a good music town. At

33:04

that time, how many kids were coming

33:06

to like see bands like the Mirrors

33:09

and the Eos and the Toons? Not

33:11

a lot, not a lot.

33:14

Now, Rocket was a different

33:16

story because we, my

33:21

very first show with them was

33:24

at the Agora opening for

33:26

Iron Butterfly. So

33:28

I mean, we walk out there and the whole place is

33:30

full. Mirrors,

33:33

we'd be playing down at the

33:35

Clockwork Orange across from the bus

33:37

station. And there'd be Peter and

33:40

Charlotte would be there. And maybe

33:42

a couple of friends of mine

33:44

and a friend of Mike's over

33:46

there and Paul's wife and

33:48

Jamie's sister and Jim's

33:51

wife. And that was about it. Then

33:54

maybe a couple of people drinking at

33:56

the bar. So it was sparse. It

33:59

was sparse. But we did

34:01

have some, I mean, I remember we played

34:03

a show out at Berea, out in Berea

34:05

at Baldwin Wallace College. And

34:09

there was a night, it was a nice night. Some,

34:11

this older man who dressed

34:14

up kind of like Sun Ra did

34:17

a light show with us. And

34:20

it was just, it was just, you know, a lot

34:22

of fun. I remember that being, you know, a night

34:24

thinking, wow, there's a lot of people here. Maybe

34:27

there were 50 people there. Was

34:31

it a heavy psychedelic scene or like a,

34:33

heavy pot smoking kind of scene then? Or

34:35

is it a drinking scene? I'd

34:38

say it was more of a

34:40

weed scene when you get it.

34:44

Psychedelic, my psychedelic phase was kind of

34:46

like high school, after high school, I

34:48

kind of kind of tapered off on

34:50

the psychedelics. It's sort of, you can,

34:52

you know, after a while it's just

34:54

sort of like, okay, now

34:56

what? Yeah. And

35:02

I wish that I had that

35:04

same kind of short duration with alcohol, but

35:06

I didn't. But that's a whole different story.

35:08

It's a lot easier to get. It

35:11

sure was. And again, once it gets ahold

35:13

of you, it's a lot hard to get

35:15

rid of. But lucky for me, I'm coming

35:18

up on 19 years of

35:20

not drinking. So that's awesome.

35:23

Oh, I'm happy for that. I'm very

35:25

lucky. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Because,

35:29

yeah, not everyone made it

35:31

through. And that's another thing that becomes part

35:33

of punk's kind of,

35:36

I don't know,

35:38

archetype is the fact that there's, heroin

35:41

eventually becomes a huge problem. And once again,

35:43

that survives to this day, sadly, opioids and

35:45

things like that. But substance

35:48

abuse and people that are drawn to

35:50

this thing because they're self-medicating, they're

35:53

experiencing trauma and it

35:56

just, I don't want to say it's a cliche, but it

35:58

is something that happens time and time again. again. This

36:02

is true. I've had my

36:04

own problems with that. I've been lucky that

36:06

I've made it as

36:08

far as I have because I have many, many friends

36:10

who haven't. And it's

36:12

something that doesn't end just here in

36:14

the music scene in Indianapolis. We've

36:17

just had recently a couple of people

36:20

pass from, well, don't

36:23

know exactly what it was, but everybody kind

36:25

of has an idea and that's

36:27

just to let it be. But

36:30

it is a problem. And I think

36:33

the problem is that a lot of created

36:35

people have a lot of

36:37

inner pain. And

36:39

that inner pain manifests itself in

36:41

many ways. Some people get hyper,

36:44

super creative and just do absolutely

36:46

fantastic, unbelievable things. Other

36:48

people just tear themselves to pieces and

36:50

they sort of do it in public.

36:53

And some people think it's great

36:55

art. Other people, when all of

36:58

a sudden when that person destroys

37:00

themselves, they say, oh,

37:02

well, he was just a waste. No,

37:05

he wasn't a waste. He was trying to, they were

37:07

trying to show you their pain. And

37:14

they just couldn't take it anymore. And

37:18

it's very hard. There's a lot of people that

37:21

are suffering in this world. And

37:24

some have an outlet to express it and

37:26

some don't. And

37:28

I think all of them, all of

37:30

us need the help to

37:33

get us through those things. I

37:35

think especially the art that kind of comes out of

37:37

this world because it is real and

37:39

the emphasis is on

37:42

making something authentic. So you're

37:44

singing a lot of times about your own pain. You're

37:46

not necessarily kissing character up there. You're

37:49

bleeding for your supper. Yes, that's

37:52

true. That's very true. So

37:55

many more than others. Some

37:57

People are just very good storytellers. All

38:00

the only story to can tell their own story.

38:04

Yeah. Well I guess going back to

38:06

the more positive side of of things

38:08

here with this a music with. with

38:11

rog from the tombs was or any. I

38:14

am as I'm sure I've read this or the in

38:16

the dollars to the voids, but there there wasn't really

38:18

any sort of major label attention right There was no

38:20

there's no path for you guys to kind of really

38:22

go at that point. Well.

38:26

Our. Trajectory was so short and

38:28

so. Quick I'm He was

38:30

up and down. New know in a in

38:33

the space of less than a year. Really

38:35

for that. Bob. That.

38:38

Version Rocket from the tombs. It

38:40

became the. A. Historical

38:42

rocket from the tombs I'd say.

38:45

Ah, we had a. Little

38:47

bit interest. Peter was good friends

38:49

with Leicester Backs. And

38:52

we had made this tape. Again,

38:54

Teetered gone to the local Fm radio

38:56

stations a wire to playing local bands

38:58

on the radio lot a really good

39:00

fans here wattage put him why don't

39:02

you put on the radio and them

39:05

program director said. Well

39:07

What? They don't have anything else. They don't have

39:09

a tape. To. Peter said so if

39:11

we brought you a tape you play it then

39:13

to guy said yeah. So

39:15

we went back to our loft and

39:18

I hear what say the fourteenth? on

39:20

the eighteenth it'll be. Thirty.

39:23

Nine Years Forty Forty Nine

39:25

Years as as we recorded

39:27

over Tonight Period. The The

39:29

Basics com. Basic.

39:32

Tapes. It became the

39:34

bootleg of Bomb. Or.

39:37

Was it like sakes? I thank my

39:39

six year of and then the day

39:41

the earth that rock from the tombs

39:43

that had more some live stuff to

39:45

it but we may that tape. And.

39:47

Sure enough, they played it on the radio. And

39:51

all the sudden you know. People.

39:53

Are interested know we? Like I

39:56

said we were opening for Iron

39:58

Butterfly are Peter arrays? The have

40:00

television com from New York and

40:02

play in Cleveland. We open tonight's

40:04

for them we have. We played

40:07

with this local act that was

40:09

break ill it was breaking out

40:11

at that time called left and.

40:14

Out of Youngstown, Ohio. And.

40:16

I get away with things were it

40:19

looks like things were going really good.

40:22

And we took the tape out

40:24

to Birmingham, Michigan to the offices.

40:26

A cream and plate of for

40:28

Leicester. And he loved it. He

40:30

just I'll always go. He was of i'm

40:32

I'm not saying he was comparing us to

40:34

them sci fi but he was. Enthuse

40:37

that we have that kind of energy. And

40:41

dub and course he did her to.

40:43

We were at a good couple of

40:45

see five or assume they're so were

40:47

sisters of of but ah. But

40:50

sites. Leicester took it

40:52

and plate supposedly played it for the

40:54

producers of noise. Too cold for a

40:56

one crew been. Before

40:59

that enthused. So

41:01

when his was when the were

41:04

I think the word derivatives was

41:06

you've grown around, you know? So

41:08

course. We're all

41:11

you know by mean I was twenty

41:13

two. I might have been the oldest

41:15

guy in the band. And

41:17

I was twenty two and dumb.

41:21

And you know, we didn't really have

41:23

any body. Older. And

41:25

wiser around us. To.

41:27

Com os down when somebody comes on.

41:30

Sticks. A pin in our balloon? So.

41:33

We just like we're. At

41:35

see you know we we didn't know what to do next.

41:38

sword we do returned at each other. And

41:40

as they are you can't say we

41:42

you can't play was you can't play

41:45

either but you can't say else and

41:47

added just it did. It

41:50

destroyed so unfortunately. I

41:52

mean, I I think that if we'd

41:54

had somebody there and then this is

41:56

all hindsight of course, because when this

41:58

was going on, I'm just. and

42:00

they're just like, what

42:02

am I going to do next, kind of thing. And

42:07

I think in hindsight that we had

42:09

a calming voice of

42:11

some sort to guide us there at

42:14

that point, which is something that, again,

42:16

as I've gotten older

42:19

and discovered more, was

42:21

that most bands that

42:23

are successful have had someone like

42:25

that helping them along. You

42:28

look at Talking Heads, or you

42:30

look at even television with Terry

42:32

Ork and the Ramones. They

42:35

had someone that

42:37

sort of was keeping everything on an

42:39

even keel. That's something we lacked. That

42:42

was something that Cleveland, I guess, was lacking at

42:44

the time, was having any kind of infrastructure

42:47

for that kind of managers or something

42:50

like that, or

42:53

media people who had an interest. There

42:55

was no interest in that level

42:57

of thing going on at the time.

43:01

I think later on, maybe there was. Well,

43:03

I think that's also the geographical privilege some

43:05

bands have by being in places like in

43:08

New York or like in Los Angeles

43:10

or even in Toronto versus Hamilton, like

43:12

where there is a music industry and there are. That's

43:15

why people go there too, though. That's

43:17

why most people, when things went sour,

43:20

most people went to New York. I

43:22

went up the coast a little further

43:24

to Connecticut, but basically it was I

43:26

wanted to go to the east coast. And

43:29

then for a time I thought, well, maybe I should be

43:31

on the west coast. And I thought about that for a

43:33

while. And then I said, no, I ended

43:35

up back in the Midwest. I

43:38

was gonna ask you, like, why did you choose

43:40

Connecticut over New York? Because

43:42

obviously Frankenstein goes to New York and I think Peter

43:45

goes to New York for a while as well, right,

43:47

or a little bit? I

43:50

knew first thing, I had been out of

43:52

the army for two years When

43:55

Rocket finally broke up and everything

43:57

had pretty much gone to hell.

44:00

They want My family had moved. I

44:02

wasn't originally from Cleveland. I was born

44:04

upstate New York and moved to Cleveland

44:06

when I was young. My father worked

44:08

for the railroad. And.

44:12

I. Have them was out of the army. Now that's

44:15

still for to look good. I said I thought I

44:17

saw you know I. I. Want to

44:19

keep playing music? but first thing any is a

44:21

job. So I got a

44:23

job on the railroad. And of

44:25

where the opening was was into a one

44:27

of them was in Connecticut so I thought

44:30

you know what? this is close to New

44:32

York? it's it's a. someplace.

44:34

Items A not been before. So.

44:38

I went out there. And that's how

44:40

I ended up exotic. It. Did

44:43

I do your credit? Card rewards really

44:45

good riddance stores led. By

44:47

Walmart. Charged are pushing for a long.

44:51

Way harder. Line

44:54

their pockets durbin more Supreme

44:56

court wouldn't. They

45:00

would and credit karma. You

45:03

love your credit card rewards. How your

45:05

lawmakers. My. Reward

45:07

them to oppose the Durbin Marshall

45:10

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45:12

to look. A little ones get all of

45:14

that energy. Our major chamberlain park inside the

45:16

house Usa The player a small has your

45:18

little ones covered with saw their time. He's

45:21

Wednesday Thursday from setting under one pm or

45:23

but only for jumper sits in under the

45:25

little ones to jump at their own cover

45:27

level without the older kids around is a

45:29

cell phone out there for you, tell us

45:31

energy and of you're right at home on

45:33

all of. The attraction plus so had

45:35

the best ever afterwards. Meager Columbus

45:37

where the fun never s is

45:39

a big air usa.com/columbus for details.

45:41

It's when you arrived there is

45:44

there that because of the Ghost

45:46

of Records is incredible band with

45:48

what a roster and law degree

45:50

been there but when you get

45:52

their first is that seen already

45:54

there are that something that you

45:56

can know? I'm. I.

45:58

think there were a lot of young bands getting

46:01

together. I moved there in the fall of 76.

46:03

By 1978 I had a band

46:10

together. I met

46:12

more people and

46:14

a little scene was starting to come

46:17

together along the shoreline out in some

46:19

of the bars out along the shore

46:21

between Bridgeport and New Haven.

46:24

They were starting to allow young punks,

46:26

if you for the lack of a

46:28

better term, come in and play their

46:30

music on nights when

46:35

the regular bar bands weren't working

46:37

playing covers. So there

46:40

wasn't really anything solid

46:43

happening when I got there but things

46:45

started happening quite soon after.

46:47

I think that I just

46:49

happened to be at the right place at

46:52

the right time and started meeting all

46:54

these people and we started getting stuff

46:56

together. Yeah because I

46:58

guess there's only the four singles on Gustav

47:00

and then there's like a comp right or

47:02

something? Maybe it's the four singles. In the

47:04

era that I had Gustav out in Connecticut

47:06

because Gustav is still alive. Is that your

47:08

label by the way? Yes that's mine. Oh

47:10

my gosh if you have any dead stock

47:13

of a certain kind of shy sleeves I

47:15

have a sleeveless copy I've been looking for

47:17

a sleeve for years but we can talk

47:19

about that later on. I

47:24

might. If I do though those weren't really printed

47:28

that well and they get

47:30

ring wear on them real quick. Something's

47:33

better than nothing Craig but back to that

47:36

fantastic ear on that label. The stuff that

47:38

you put out I love that Poodle Boys

47:40

single obviously the Bats is a classic and

47:42

all the saucer stuff. Well there was some

47:44

stuff that wasn't necessarily punk that

47:47

came out of because I wanted to you

47:49

know I wanted the label to be all

47:52

sorts of things you know I I just

47:54

if I saw something I there's an

47:57

album called tuba city furnace by this

47:59

jazz piano Just. Ah,

48:01

Robert Griffin. Unfortunately, She

48:04

passed away a few years ago, but

48:06

he came to me with this Fall

48:08

complete album. Of just. Like.

48:10

Sony. Sort.

48:12

of slightly psychedelic jazz

48:15

piano, I. Got sick the now.

48:17

And. We put it out, I have my

48:19

only copy of it. I don't even

48:21

think I've ever seen another copy of

48:24

it cause when we held that album

48:26

made see took the majority the copies.

48:28

I just sort of. I put a

48:30

little bit of money so would be

48:32

on my label and then Heat of

48:34

the Albums and sold them. However he

48:36

sold and I have never seen another

48:38

copy as but I've got one. Back.

48:41

In here somewhere. As for what we put

48:43

out at that time, we put out. Schoolboys.

48:46

Bats and Saucers singles all

48:48

came with the first fruits

48:50

three releases and then of

48:53

might expand the plan put

48:55

out a single. On

48:57

and that was it for singles

48:59

in Connecticut. The. Albums Where

49:01

the bats put out an album that

49:04

was first Salvo. Then there was the

49:06

comp album. Then there was a twelve

49:08

inch T P by this sub rock

49:11

band called Corporation. Last. Arm

49:14

and there was the tude was City Furnace

49:16

cell phone. And. There as

49:18

can stead pretty much was the

49:20

Connecticut era of Of Gustaf records.

49:22

Forgot about one which is visa

49:24

of Sassy Record the bridge record

49:26

with a chronic disorder. Or

49:29

torments. Oh gosh, yeah, forgot about

49:31

that one. that's right arm. Oh

49:33

and I've hazing on his name right now.

49:36

the main guy from chronic disorder but he

49:38

came to me and he had. He had

49:40

put out like a hundred copies of that

49:42

record on his all. And.

49:45

He have. Any solar

49:47

my crazy that be had that been like

49:49

do blew up real quick and he wanted

49:51

he wanted to make some more but he

49:53

didn't have the money so I went in

49:55

with him and said well. you're i

49:57

help ya help you put up this next If

50:00

you'll just mention on the label that it's on goose

50:02

off records, and he said sure

50:05

so we did that Oh,

50:07

that's why I'm about that. Thanks for reminding me about that

50:10

I don't even know if I have a copy of that

50:12

record It's a hard record to get

50:14

like they are all sure it is especially

50:16

the Forget the

50:19

one on goose job the exact same

50:21

record came out before that that one

50:23

up that is really tough to get

50:25

yeah I

50:27

wish I could remember his name right now. It's

50:29

is it is it spit

50:31

respectable who respectable

50:34

yes Didn't

50:36

nodding them. Yeah, there is

50:38

adding him. Yes There

50:41

it is. There you go that then that to

50:43

me is a it's there They're a great

50:45

band because and you putting out that record. I've always

50:47

thought was really interesting because That

50:50

first scene of Connecticut the

50:52

records that you put out. It's a very power pop

50:55

Distinct. I love that. I love

50:57

the sound and then obviously Connecticut

50:59

becomes very much associated with hardcore

51:01

very much so bands out of

51:03

Bridgeport like CIA and 76%

51:07

uncertain those guys were great always play

51:09

shows with them at this place called

51:11

pogo's I never played the

51:14

anthrax which was a little further towards

51:16

New York down in Stanford But

51:18

pogo's in Bridgeport always had such

51:20

great shows there with those guys

51:22

that so much energy Awesome

51:26

And also like saucers. It's like pre

51:28

Miracle Legion and pre dump truck, too.

51:31

Yes. Yep after After

51:34

that band broke up both mark in fact,

51:36

I'm going to see both of them Mike

51:39

pregan who was a another Guy

51:42

in that scene over the years is

51:44

having his 60th birthday party and Catskill

51:48

Next month. Oh, I'm

51:50

going to it because he was like When

51:53

I met him he was maybe 13

51:56

or 14 working behind the counter at the

51:58

record store and And he

52:00

was just like, talk about someone

52:02

who had like musical knowledge. Mike

52:05

knew just all sorts of stuff. Anyway,

52:07

became friends. Once he

52:09

got a little bit older, he started playing in

52:12

bands too, has done a lot of stuff over

52:14

the years. But he's at a record store in

52:17

New York State for a number of years and

52:20

gonna get back together with them

52:22

and have some fun next month.

52:24

But I should see more, I believe Mark and Seth are

52:26

both going to be there from a

52:29

both Erika Legion and Dump Truck and Saucers.

52:31

So who knows? Song of

52:33

communion. Yeah, if nothing else,

52:35

we'll get a photograph. Yeah. Well,

52:39

it's a, yeah,

52:41

it is such an interesting time kind

52:44

of post that punk explosion where

52:47

you do have so many different bands

52:49

taken in different places. And

52:52

now it's just, I guess it's

52:54

ultimately what becomes mainstream rock and roll music

52:56

at this point. But at

52:58

that point, it's just amazing where

53:00

all this different energy is being taken

53:02

in terms of styles. It

53:04

was a really wondrous, I think the

53:07

decades of the 70s and the 80s

53:09

were some of the freest and

53:11

most wonderful times

53:14

to be playing music and

53:16

to be immersed in it and learning

53:18

and changing and being exposed to so

53:21

much more diverse stuff. And

53:24

instead of just saying, oh, well, we

53:26

can't have a trombone in this because

53:29

that's not punk. Well, yes, it is

53:31

punk. Bring the trombone player. And

53:35

that's what I loved about it. And what

53:37

I still love about doing this stuff now

53:39

is that be as off the wall as

53:41

you want to be. Just

53:44

experiment with every idea

53:46

that comes into your head

53:48

and don't be constrained by

53:51

anything. I think that's what

53:53

the whole ethic of punk

53:55

was about, was that everything

53:57

is admissible. Everything

53:59

can be coming. to play? Well I always

54:01

say on the show that it's to me

54:03

it's a double helix of sort of highfalutin

54:06

aspirations and an experimentation

54:08

meets street rock and roll

54:11

and the fact that Perubu and the

54:13

Dead Boys start in Rock from

54:15

the Tombs and you have sort

54:18

of the highfalutin art rock version of punk

54:20

rock and the real gritty street

54:22

version of punk rock starting in the exact

54:24

same place is just that's what

54:26

makes this music so special to me

54:29

is because exactly because the heart of

54:31

both those things remained with both fans

54:33

as they went their separate ways and

54:37

it changed mutate of course but I mean

54:40

the soul that was there from the beginning. What

54:44

was it like when you saw things like 30

54:46

seconds over Tokyo blowing

54:49

up and subsequently years later some of these

54:51

Rock from the Tombs songs being covered by

54:53

like Guns N' Roses or you know

54:56

like some of these songs being covered by Peter

54:58

Murphy and all these sorts of different places like

55:01

it must have been surreal to kind of watch this thing

55:03

that you did as like a kid. The

55:06

Peter Murphy one was

55:09

for me was the best was

55:12

that I was sitting at a friend's house

55:15

one afternoon with a small television on

55:17

the table and I think we were

55:20

playing Cribbage and

55:22

doing some other things who I

55:24

won't discuss right now but nevertheless

55:27

we were spending the afternoon together

55:29

with MTV on and

55:31

we're playing and all of a sudden I hear that

55:33

dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum and I

55:35

said oh oh that sounds like and

55:37

then all of a sudden the words come in girls

55:40

won't touch me because I got and I'm

55:42

booked to TV and by now you know

55:44

they used to have that little icon down

55:46

in the corner saying who it was what

55:48

song who was doing the song

55:50

well by then that had already gone away

55:52

so I turned finally turn to look at

55:54

TV and it's finally it's

55:57

Peter Murphy doing Final Solution on

55:59

MTV And I'm

56:01

pointing to my friend and I'm going, hey man, you

56:03

see it. That's my song. I wrote that song I

56:06

was one of the writers of that song. He's looking to be

56:08

going you're high. You're crazy You

56:10

don't know shit fucker. I said no, no,

56:12

no believe me it is and Then

56:16

at the end, of course, they put the thing

56:18

on Final Solution Peter Murphy blah blah blah. So

56:22

Next day I went and got you

56:24

know a cassette tape from my house

56:26

of us doing Final Solution You know

56:29

by that time almost 10

56:31

years previous Yeah,

56:34

and brought it over to my friend's house and

56:36

said now listen to this This sounds I'm gonna

56:38

it's gonna the same song and I said, it's

56:40

me playing that So

56:43

that was I mean that was wow, you

56:46

know, yeah that was really really

56:48

a wild

56:50

experience I thought that the version

56:53

of ain't it fun that Gunton

56:56

roses did was really good. They really

56:58

I mean really took got the spirit

57:00

of that song down Yeah,

57:03

I love that version. Yeah, that was

57:06

that was my first exposure to the song and

57:08

as a kid But then

57:11

when I heard finally heard that hearing the

57:13

rock from the tombs versions of all these

57:15

songs obviously much later When

57:18

it when it got released I didn't get the life stinks

57:20

bootleg when it came out It took the smog veil reissue

57:22

before I got a chance to really hear the stuff mm-hmm,

57:25

and It's all there like

57:27

these songs are it just it

57:30

hits you like oh my gosh like the power of

57:33

That band and like you're saying like basically

57:35

one year of true sort of the core

57:37

existence of that thing It's

57:39

I felt the same way. I mean listening the

57:41

first dead boys album Basically,

57:43

I mean, you know the majority of the

57:46

songs on there are derived from the rock

57:48

from the tubes and then why not? I

57:50

mean cheetah was riff master. I mean, he's

57:52

a monster riff maker and A

57:54

lot of those songs were his and and

57:56

it was really great to hear them, you know out in

58:00

the world and now you know

58:02

like Sonic Reducer is a punk

58:05

anthem. Every young

58:08

punk kid for years

58:10

that I ran into was like oh

58:12

Sonic Reducer you know. And it

58:16

is a just monstrous

58:18

song. I'm

58:21

so proud to be part of that to

58:23

have helped bring that out

58:25

into the world. Not

58:28

even just that song. The fact that what

58:30

you guys brought into the world in

58:33

terms of a scene where it

58:35

wasn't Warhol and the

58:37

factory and it wasn't you know

58:39

the MC5. It was just people that

58:41

love music making music because they love

58:43

music. And like you were saying being free

58:45

to experiment. To me that's where

58:48

punk starts because all you guys

58:50

are all you people are bringing different

58:52

influences to this stuff and the stuff

58:54

you're making isn't necessarily

58:57

accessible or easy but it's

58:59

interesting and fantastic and

59:01

amazing and that's what

59:03

survives this day. Like I've done 500 episodes

59:06

of this podcast talking about something that you

59:08

guys made. Well

59:11

thank you. Thank you very

59:13

much. I

59:18

can't think of another word except just

59:21

honored to just have been

59:23

there in the room a lot

59:25

of times and make my contribution

59:27

whatever it was to any of

59:30

those songs and

59:32

knowing you know going forward that that you know

59:34

I can take that song and take it right

59:36

back to the first time I heard it when

59:39

you know maybe it was only half

59:41

that song. And to

59:43

think and I have the memories of making

59:46

those songs come to life and that

59:48

really is just it's

59:51

really a special special

59:53

feeling. I don't know how else to put it.

59:56

When did you become aware of the Life Stinks

59:58

bootleg or were you aware? I think it came out

1:00:00

right around that time. So I didn't see it till

1:00:02

a few years after that. I

1:00:05

think I had read somewhere about it. And

1:00:08

then I'm trying to think where I got my first copy

1:00:10

of it, because

1:00:14

I have three copies of it now.

1:00:16

I'm trying to corner the market. There's

1:00:19

supposedly only 500 of them, but I've got three of them. I've got

1:00:21

one. And you're going to pry it from my computer.

1:00:24

I'm going to try to get it to the market. I'm going

1:00:26

to try to get it to the market. I've

1:00:28

got one. And you're going to pry it

1:00:30

from my cold, wet fingers. Well, you know what?

1:00:32

We should get together. It makes us stronger. That's

1:00:34

true. OK, fine. I'll form an alliance

1:00:36

with you. We can go buy a record collection. But

1:00:39

I think it's probably about 92 or 93.

1:00:45

I don't know if you know the Gizmos

1:00:47

connection to that. No. What's

1:00:49

the Gizmos connection? The

1:00:52

person who did the cover art, next time

1:00:54

you look at the album, look at the

1:00:56

cover art. It says cover art by Eduardo

1:00:58

Flores. That's Eddie Flowers

1:01:00

of the Gizmos. I

1:01:03

didn't know that until I met the Gizmos. Because

1:01:05

I never knew, I knew of the Gizmos, had

1:01:07

heard maybe one or two of their songs, until

1:01:11

they had a reunion about 10

1:01:13

years ago. And I

1:01:15

got into their backing band for, oh,

1:01:18

I don't know, about

1:01:20

six months we did a bunch of shows around the

1:01:22

Midwest. And then they went

1:01:24

off doing it. Then they would just

1:01:26

start doing something sporadically, and

1:01:28

they'd have other people do things. But

1:01:34

a few years after that, Eddie moved from

1:01:36

Los Angeles, moved here back to

1:01:38

Indiana. And he

1:01:40

lives here now. In fact, I'm

1:01:42

sitting in his band. In

1:01:45

his band, on the 24th, I'm going to

1:01:47

be playing bass for him, because his bass

1:01:49

player is going to be out of town.

1:01:51

Oh, that's awesome. But when

1:01:54

we first met, we started talking. He was kind of acting

1:01:57

a little strange

1:01:59

around the world. me and finally he

1:02:01

goes, do you know about

1:02:03

the bootleg album? And I

1:02:05

said, you mean the Rock for the Tooth bootleg? Yeah,

1:02:07

I have one. In fact, I have a couple of

1:02:09

them. He goes, but

1:02:12

do you know about? I said, what's to know? And

1:02:16

then he told me I did the, you know, that

1:02:18

he did the cover art for it. And

1:02:21

I just thought, oh, no, you gotta be

1:02:23

shitting me. So I thought that

1:02:27

was fantastic. So because I've always

1:02:29

wondered who would have been the source for that

1:02:31

tape because it was I

1:02:33

think, I think it is my fault. Because

1:02:36

I believe that I remember there was

1:02:39

a guy named Darren Wells, who

1:02:42

lived in Las Vegas, who was a

1:02:44

collector. And

1:02:46

I corresponded with

1:02:48

him and I sent him a copy of

1:02:51

the what we call the loft tape,

1:02:53

the initial five or six songs that

1:02:55

got played on the radio. Because

1:02:58

I didn't have any of the live stuff, you know,

1:03:00

most of that live stuff, I

1:03:02

never heard about, you

1:03:05

know, except for when it got played on the radio.

1:03:08

But after that,

1:03:10

I did not know like that there was

1:03:12

a recording of the shows we did with

1:03:14

television. It wasn't

1:03:17

until probably about 1996. I found

1:03:19

out that that stuff existed right

1:03:21

before they small

1:03:24

bill put the album. But

1:03:27

okay, now I've lost my train of thought. So Darren

1:03:30

Wells in Las Vegas. Oh, yes, Darren.

1:03:32

So anyway, I had sent years

1:03:35

before that a copy of the cassette

1:03:37

to Darren. I

1:03:39

knew him through Chris Stigliano that

1:03:41

used to have black to calm

1:03:43

fanzine. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. As

1:03:47

Chris was a big fan of Cleveland

1:03:49

music covered

1:03:51

us quite a bit wrote a lot of stuff

1:03:53

about us. And I do

1:03:55

believe that

1:03:57

that tape that I sent to Darren and became the basis

1:04:00

for that bootleg. And

1:04:02

if that's not the case, I have

1:04:04

managed in the band to have come

1:04:07

to take the blame for it anyway.

1:04:09

So for better or for worse, yeah,

1:04:11

it was me. Well,

1:04:13

I would argue for better because

1:04:15

I agree. You know,

1:04:17

that stuff kept us alive. That

1:04:20

album was a holy

1:04:22

grail to a lot of people. And

1:04:24

it kept us alive when we

1:04:26

did the reunion

1:04:29

and did a short we did

1:04:31

a short tour of the Midwest. After

1:04:35

we did the show that one show in LA, which was

1:04:37

supposed to be the only time we were going to get

1:04:39

together was to do the show in

1:04:41

LA in 2003, I think.

1:04:45

And then that went well. So we

1:04:47

decided, well, we'll do some shows around

1:04:49

Cleveland, Chicago and what have you. We

1:04:52

did those shows, every single one of

1:04:54

them was just packed to the gills

1:04:57

with people. It was amazing how many

1:04:59

people wanted to see us and everything.

1:05:01

And the people would come up afterwards,

1:05:05

just telling us how much it

1:05:07

meant to them, you know, to to

1:05:10

actually see us perform, because

1:05:12

they never thought they thought that it

1:05:14

was the last day, they were expecting

1:05:16

the Beatles to get back together before

1:05:19

they were going to see us get

1:05:21

back together. So that was, that

1:05:23

was a really that year, 2003 2004, when we did those

1:05:25

tours, was

1:05:29

just absolutely amazing. It

1:05:31

was wonderful. I

1:05:33

just had so much fun on those and just

1:05:35

met so many people that are still my friends

1:05:37

today. I think

1:05:40

I also gave you a chance to kind of appreciate how

1:05:42

that how impactful that I guess,

1:05:45

a bootleg in the beginning,

1:05:47

but those recordings are for people.

1:05:49

I would argue that some of the

1:05:51

punk's most significant records are

1:05:54

our bootlegs or unreleased records, you

1:05:56

know, like the screamers recordings, obviously

1:05:59

the rocks and the tunes recordings,

1:06:01

the spunk demos for the sex

1:06:03

pistols, and there's stuff

1:06:06

that if it wasn't,

1:06:09

and obviously not condoning the bootlegging and ripping off

1:06:11

bands or anything like that, but if these things

1:06:13

weren't put out there in this form, I don't

1:06:17

know if this music would have developed in the same way. What would

1:06:19

Rocket from the Crypt be called without that bootleg? That's

1:06:21

true. That's true. I

1:06:23

met the lead singer from Rocket from the

1:06:26

Crypt in San Diego in 2003 because we

1:06:28

started our

1:06:31

tour there, and he came to the show, and he's

1:06:33

staying out in front of the show, and he's talking

1:06:35

to me and Cheetah, and he's going,

1:06:38

listen, I swear to God, I swear, we

1:06:40

never thought you'd guys get back together.

1:06:45

But I always thought, I mean, I thought

1:06:47

it was interesting that there was a band

1:06:49

called Rocket from the Crypt, and I always

1:06:51

assumed that we were an influence

1:06:53

because where else would you get that?

1:06:56

Because even Rocket from the Tunes, that's

1:06:58

something David came up with. I

1:07:00

have no idea where he got that from unless

1:07:03

it just came out of his mind, and

1:07:05

there's no

1:07:07

real reference. You didn't take it, it

1:07:09

sounded like Plan 9 from Outer Space

1:07:12

or something. So

1:07:15

I always thought that Rocket from the Crypt had

1:07:17

done that, but I thought it was great that

1:07:19

he actually came to the show, and he was

1:07:21

like, listen, you guys, you're not mad, are you?

1:07:24

I'm like, hell, I'm not mad. I

1:07:27

feel like that's also the

1:07:30

ultimate tribute, too. When you found out about the existence

1:07:32

of Rocket from the Tomb, it's all of a sudden

1:07:34

like, oh, this is like this Easter

1:07:36

egg that's been waiting for me the whole time in Rocket from

1:07:38

the Crypt's name. For

1:07:41

me, I found out about it from,

1:07:43

there's like a book about unknown

1:07:45

history or unknown legends of Rock

1:07:47

and Roll. I

1:07:50

have a copy of it right over here. The

1:07:53

writer in San Francisco, I can't think of his name. I

1:07:55

blank it on it, too. I'll put that in the intro.

1:07:57

Pre-note. Richie Uttenberger. Oh my

1:07:59

gosh. Gosh, you saved me a footnote. Yeah.

1:08:02

Richie, that was really

1:08:05

nice. The sad thing about that was that

1:08:07

book came with a CD. And

1:08:10

there's no Rock from the Tombs on the CD.

1:08:13

Yes. I forget why, but

1:08:15

I think just I don't

1:08:17

know if it was a production date missed

1:08:19

or whatever, but just never

1:08:22

managed to get a track on there. And

1:08:25

that was before when Life Stinks was the only

1:08:27

available thing. So it was

1:08:30

pre-Smogvale recording because I- Oh, yes. Oh,

1:08:32

yeah. That was years before that. Yeah.

1:08:34

Because that put Life Stinks on my

1:08:36

want list. And that began my quest

1:08:38

to try and find a copy of

1:08:40

it because it was

1:08:42

such a tease. Like you're reading about this. Then

1:08:45

there was Clinton Halen's book. Is

1:08:50

that the Velvet to the Voidoids? Velvet to

1:08:52

the Voidoids. And

1:08:54

then after that, I think it was

1:08:56

John Savage's England Screaming came

1:08:58

out. And then after that, Legs

1:09:01

McNeil's Please Kill Me. And those

1:09:03

books, there's little mentions of Rocket

1:09:05

in all of them. And

1:09:09

it was interesting

1:09:12

because that was all, I think, in the 90s. And

1:09:15

then all of a sudden, at the turn of

1:09:17

the century, boom. It's

1:09:19

like I had stopped

1:09:22

playing pretty much in the 90s,

1:09:25

just play

1:09:27

very little things here and there. But

1:09:30

then all of a sudden, that happened. And it

1:09:33

was like, whoop. Here we go

1:09:35

again. And it was

1:09:37

very nice. I mean, I was very

1:09:39

happy because I wanted to get

1:09:42

out there and start playing again. And

1:09:45

from Rocket getting back together, I started

1:09:49

one of numerous bands that I've had

1:09:51

here in Indiana since then. I've

1:09:54

made five or six records on my own since

1:09:56

then, along with the four records we made with

1:09:58

Rocket from the Tombs over the past. us what

1:10:01

20 years now. Yeah it's

1:10:03

amazing kind of the second life that

1:10:06

band had because of it. Yes and

1:10:09

I think we did some really great work. I

1:10:12

know I have the rocket the

1:10:14

official rocket for the tombs warehouses

1:10:16

back here behind this wall and

1:10:20

I have noticed that

1:10:22

we are starting to get more people

1:10:24

interested in the album barfly which

1:10:27

I'm great because I think it's

1:10:29

a great record and it has some

1:10:31

really great songs on it but it's just you know it

1:10:35

wasn't it wasn't like before

1:10:37

that we had done Redux where we

1:10:40

kind of redid the older songs and

1:10:43

then we did barfly and barfly was a

1:10:45

whole new set of songs and kind of

1:10:47

a different kind of approach and

1:10:49

then the last one we did black record is

1:10:52

a more of a kind

1:10:55

of on the tunes album. Well

1:10:57

it just comes up on the show all the time too is

1:10:59

like one of the problems with making

1:11:02

music is that eventually you become a

1:11:05

victim of people's nostalgia where

1:11:07

they're committed to this one brief moment

1:11:09

in your creative existence and

1:11:11

that's where they want you to be and

1:11:14

occasionally like obviously people come along and people

1:11:16

eventually like you're saying they eventually warm up

1:11:18

to stuff but it takes

1:11:20

a while because nostalgia is a heavy drug. That's

1:11:23

true I to this day I play Final

1:11:26

Solution in my set usually end

1:11:28

the set with Final Solution and

1:11:31

I was thinking the last time well last

1:11:33

time I played was was in January and

1:11:36

I was thinking as I was playing that song

1:11:39

I've been playing this song for 50 years. 50

1:11:44

years it's

1:11:46

just incredible and

1:11:48

still it goes

1:11:50

over like gangbusters every time

1:11:54

so yeah there's you do

1:11:56

it sometime I can see where some artists

1:11:59

feel they're trapped in that that,

1:12:01

you know, nobody wants to hear my new songs. They want

1:12:04

to hear the old songs. I

1:12:06

look at it, I play the old songs,

1:12:08

so I have a chance to play the

1:12:11

new songs. And if

1:12:13

they don't want to listen to the new songs, that's fine. As

1:12:15

long as they stick around with the old songs. That's why they're

1:12:17

at the end of the set. And

1:12:20

how many people do something in

1:12:22

their early 20s creatively that resonates 50 years

1:12:25

later with people? Like, that's a pretty

1:12:28

powerful piece of music is what it is. And

1:12:33

I feel like, you know, like a certain

1:12:36

kind of shy. I think the Saucer stuff

1:12:38

is awesome, too. I think that band finding

1:12:42

out that it was you and

1:12:44

there's a connection was a mindblower for me.

1:12:46

Because I just got the Saucer's 7-inch with

1:12:49

No Sleeve at a record

1:12:51

store one time. I was like, this is killer. Oh, I

1:12:53

love this single so much. And then years

1:12:55

later, putting the pieces together, it's it's

1:12:59

got so much incredible stuff, like you're saying, like to

1:13:01

this day, you're putting out great music. Well,

1:13:04

thank you. I appreciate that very much. I'm I'm

1:13:08

just enjoying my enjoying the fact

1:13:10

that I'm making music and that

1:13:12

I've been able to work with so

1:13:15

many incredible people over the years. It's

1:13:17

just it's. It's

1:13:20

truly I'm a lucky person to be

1:13:22

able to do things that I've lived

1:13:24

a life or have been able to

1:13:26

do things I love. And

1:13:29

I'm very grateful for that. And

1:13:32

the fact that you're like playing with the guys

1:13:34

in the gizmos or you're doing stuff with X-blank

1:13:36

X and stuff like there's it's

1:13:39

like a lifetime spent in this music. Yeah,

1:13:41

you help Bill. But like, you know, it's not like you

1:13:43

went away and, you know, did a

1:13:45

techno record and then came back like you've always

1:13:48

been involved in underground music. Pretty

1:13:51

much. So I've underground is where I

1:13:53

started. It seems like underground is where

1:13:55

else they. But I like

1:13:57

I said, it's just to be doing it now.

1:14:00

in 2024 to be sitting here and

1:14:02

talking with you and

1:14:04

to be, you know, like

1:14:06

I said, 50 years ago, I came home from the

1:14:09

army in March of 1974 to

1:14:11

come back to Cleveland to play in a

1:14:13

band. And here it is 50 years later,

1:14:15

I'm still talking about it. I'm still doing

1:14:17

it. And it's

1:14:20

been a great ride. I

1:14:25

can't say enough about it. Going

1:14:31

back now to the very beginning, I've always wondered

1:14:33

this, you mentioned the Velvet Underground being

1:14:35

an influence on the mirrors. Were bands like the

1:14:37

Fugs or Up at all an influence or? The

1:14:41

Fugs? Yeah, the Fugs. I

1:14:43

believe so. You know, I was

1:14:45

aware of the Fugs and having

1:14:48

Mike Weldon for a friend, he

1:14:51

turned me on to so much music.

1:14:54

And I'm sure that somewhere along there was

1:14:56

the Fugs, but I never, that was never

1:14:58

something I was really into, but I'm sure

1:15:01

that it influenced others.

1:15:04

What about the Stooges or like the

1:15:06

MC5? Stooges were monstrous. Yeah. Stooges

1:15:09

were Stooges and MC5 and

1:15:12

the Velvet's were probably like

1:15:14

the triumvirate of what drove

1:15:16

us. The

1:15:18

Tlogs are another band, the Kinks, you

1:15:21

know, that sort of hard gritty art, some

1:15:23

of it's R&B based, some of it's just

1:15:26

straight up hard charging, power

1:15:28

chords, but that

1:15:31

is the stuff that really got us

1:15:33

excited and wanted us to

1:15:35

play music, make music our own like

1:15:38

that. Was there much of

1:15:40

a connection between

1:15:43

your scene in Cleveland and sort of

1:15:45

the stuff that was going on in Akron? I

1:15:47

guess it starts a little bit later in Akron,

1:15:49

but was there any sort of cultural

1:15:51

exchange? Actually, Akron

1:15:53

was going right at the same time

1:15:56

that we were, but they

1:15:59

even though... was only like 45, 50

1:16:01

miles between us, there

1:16:04

really wasn't much inter-pollination.

1:16:06

I see reading again,

1:16:10

reading here now in the future

1:16:13

about the past, that there was

1:16:16

some cross-pollination between, say, Peter

1:16:18

going down and playing in the Akron,

1:16:20

Kent area. And we were aware that

1:16:22

the James gang was from Kent, and

1:16:24

they were, you know, they had been

1:16:26

a popular band in the bar circuit

1:16:28

around Cleveland before they broke out nationally.

1:16:30

So everybody knew about them. And

1:16:33

Mirrors played with Tim Huey a

1:16:36

few times. But

1:16:39

we never, you know, that would be up in

1:16:41

Cleveland. We'd never get invited down

1:16:43

to Akron, so we didn't know what was going

1:16:45

on down there. And like you said, I left

1:16:47

in 76, and I think it was

1:16:49

a couple years later that everything

1:16:54

about Akron came to the fore.

1:16:56

But Devo was,

1:16:59

I think Devo, well Devo goes back, the

1:17:02

seeds of Devo were planted at

1:17:05

the shootings at Kent State

1:17:07

in 1970. So that

1:17:10

was something I think it was going on

1:17:12

down there, but hadn't come up to Cleveland

1:17:14

by the time. I think right after

1:17:16

I left, I mean like a week

1:17:19

after I left, is when Devo first

1:17:21

played in Cleveland. Wow,

1:17:23

it's so interesting too, because like you

1:17:25

said, it is kind of happening simultaneously. And there's bands

1:17:27

like Bizarros or River City

1:17:29

Rebels that there seems like they would kind

1:17:31

of fit sonically better than like Tim Huey

1:17:34

or something. But that's true.

1:17:36

And you know, I didn't know about

1:17:38

the Bizarros until after I moved away

1:17:40

and started

1:17:43

discovering what was going on in Akron

1:17:45

and about Clone Records and that Bizarros

1:17:47

are one of my favorite bands. We

1:17:49

just played a show

1:17:51

with them last year in Akron. And

1:17:54

I hope to do more with

1:17:56

those guys. I never saw the

1:17:59

Bizarros. until maybe 2014. I

1:18:03

was in Cleveland, we were recording,

1:18:05

I think, Black Record, and I noticed

1:18:07

in the paper that the Bizarros are

1:18:09

doing a show in Akron. And

1:18:11

I said, oh my god, I got to go.

1:18:13

So I just drove down there by myself, you

1:18:16

know, and, and saw the show. And

1:18:18

afterwards, you know, when it

1:18:20

walked up and introduced myself and told them,

1:18:22

you know, how much I like those

1:18:24

guys. And since then, have become, become good friends

1:18:26

with the guys. Oh, and

1:18:28

I love that. That first single is one of

1:18:31

those sort of all time classics that I feel

1:18:34

doesn't necessarily get talked about in as

1:18:37

much as some of the other singles from back then. Do

1:18:39

you have, do you have their Mercury

1:18:41

album? I had

1:18:43

it, but a few years ago, I lost

1:18:46

that. And also my copy of From the Velvet

1:18:48

to the Voidoids, I've also found missing today. So

1:18:51

I don't have it anymore. When

1:18:53

I sold my record, we had, my

1:18:55

wife and I had, this

1:18:58

wall was a record rack just full

1:19:00

of albums. We had tons of them.

1:19:03

Some here now, but that's, we sold

1:19:05

our entire collection of thousands of records

1:19:07

back in the late early

1:19:09

90s. Okay. And bought,

1:19:11

we just got to buy a few CDs.

1:19:14

We bought CDs. But anyway, I kept,

1:19:17

I kept one album. I

1:19:19

kept the Bizarros album. Oh,

1:19:21

wow. Claudia kept one. She

1:19:23

was a big fan of the Yardbirds and kept,

1:19:26

I think it was Roger the Engineer. And

1:19:28

those are the only two albums we, from

1:19:30

our complete collection that we kept. But

1:19:33

I just thought with that Bizarros album, I said, I

1:19:35

am never going to see another one of these copies

1:19:38

of this record again in my life. Of

1:19:40

course, you know, then reissue and stuff like

1:19:42

that. But I held onto that because man,

1:19:44

I think that is a complete album. It

1:19:46

is just, it's

1:19:49

killer songs from start

1:19:51

to finish. And

1:19:53

why they never were more popular, I'll

1:19:56

never understand because they seem to be

1:19:58

everything that that era. of music

1:20:00

was supposed to be the

1:20:02

Bizarros were. Yeah,

1:20:05

I guess it really comes down to time

1:20:08

and place, right? With a lot of these things,

1:20:10

right? Because they... I think so. Yeah,

1:20:13

so many of these bands that are just... What

1:20:16

you think, like this, why didn't this hit?

1:20:19

Like it's so perfect for its

1:20:21

time. I felt that

1:20:23

way about Cleveland was, I mean, for

1:20:25

me, it was the right place at the right

1:20:27

time. You know, it just... I

1:20:31

mean, who knew? I

1:20:34

got to ask you about your, I

1:20:36

guess, Jamie's brother, Andrew. I

1:20:39

love that single he did. I think a couple of... 1979,

1:20:41

it came out. No

1:20:44

nonsense? Not no nonsense. It's

1:20:46

not like a nonsense name. Roaching the spray guns. Roaching

1:20:49

the minimal with spray guns. Is that the one?

1:20:51

That's the one. Yeah, I think enough. I

1:20:54

believe enough you ask about the

1:20:56

sleeve. For a certain

1:20:58

kind of shy. I

1:21:01

have the sleeve to that record, but I don't

1:21:03

have the record. And

1:21:06

Andrew tells me, oh, yeah, I think I've

1:21:08

got some down in Jamie's basement. And

1:21:11

I said, well, would you go down there and

1:21:13

get one for me, please? But

1:21:15

he hasn't done that yet, but I'm still hoping.

1:21:18

I ran. Andrew came to... I was

1:21:20

in New York in June helping

1:21:23

out David when Perubu

1:21:25

came over and did two shows New

1:21:28

York and L.A. last summer. So

1:21:31

I came over for the weekend of the New York

1:21:33

shows to help David was

1:21:35

driving around town and, you know, and helping

1:21:37

him because he doesn't get around to too

1:21:39

well these days. So I'm

1:21:42

sitting working the merch table during the

1:21:44

show and I look over

1:21:46

and sitting right next to me, there's Andrew. Out

1:21:48

of the blue, I said, how'd you get here?

1:21:50

He goes, oh, my friend and I just

1:21:52

drove over from Cleveland. Here

1:21:59

I... When when I was

1:22:01

you know be before I went

1:22:03

into the army and was playing and mirrors and

1:22:05

things like that Andrew was about nine years old

1:22:09

but of course he was around him, you know,

1:22:11

there's it was a lot of climax and So

1:22:14

he and he was the youngest one, but he was

1:22:16

nine, you know He didn't so sort of pay too

1:22:19

much attention to him and then and

1:22:21

then now here I am for the last ten years I've been

1:22:23

in a band with him. Yeah,

1:22:25

pretty amazing. Yeah, it is

1:22:28

Well, it's awesome like that all these people are

1:22:30

still involved in music too and still It

1:22:33

is it is really nice to know that

1:22:36

there's a lot of a stop. They're doing this unfortunately One

1:22:40

by one, you know Things

1:22:43

happen, unfortunately, you know and

1:22:47

Yeah, and sadly some people weren't able to

1:22:49

be here I guess to see this moment

1:22:51

happen which is that's true. That's true This

1:22:55

has been incredible Craig in any time you want

1:22:57

to come back on this podcast and be punished

1:22:59

about any of this stuff Damien anytime you would

1:23:02

like to have me on just give me a

1:23:04

give me a shout and I'd be loved to

1:23:07

I'd love to just hang out and chat with you I

1:23:09

hope to get up to Toronto and have

1:23:11

not been back I don't think I've been back in in

1:23:14

Toronto since I saw you and that was I

1:23:16

think 2001 it's about five years ago

1:23:19

2018 oh Was

1:23:21

18? Oh gosh section 17 no 18 18 18 Wow Been

1:23:26

a while. Well next time you do we'll ride

1:23:28

the roller coaster of the X Hey,

1:23:31

absolutely go to the top of CN Tower,

1:23:33

you know in

1:23:35

I think it was 77 my then

1:23:37

wife and I came

1:23:39

up to Toronto to go to the the

1:23:43

Canadian Grand Prix and We

1:23:46

were just doing some sightseeing and they had

1:23:49

this the CN Tower like half built at

1:23:51

that time And you could go

1:23:53

up to like the halfway point and

1:23:56

they had like an observation area So you can

1:23:58

look out and all the heads was like,

1:24:00

you know, it was an old railroad yard, so

1:24:02

there was nothing down there. But that was before

1:24:04

the new stadium. You saw all of that. And

1:24:06

I just wish I had taken a picture at

1:24:09

the time of that, you

1:24:11

know, you don't think it's pronto

1:24:13

has changed so much. You know,

1:24:15

I first came up there

1:24:17

by myself in like 1967. And

1:24:21

every summer after that, I would just come

1:24:24

up and spend like a week I remember

1:24:26

the I don't know, maybe it's so round

1:24:28

the rotsdale rotsdale.

1:24:31

It the building's still there. Yeah, but

1:24:33

they stopped it being a free university

1:24:36

when it got taken over by motorcycle

1:24:40

enthusiasts and someone got

1:24:42

thrown off the roof.

1:24:44

I don't doubt that because I that's

1:24:46

where I ended up crashing the first

1:24:48

time I came to Toronto. And

1:24:51

then the years coming up afterwards, you know, they

1:24:53

told me, hey, anytime you're around, come back. So

1:24:55

like 6869 70. That's where I'd stay when I'd

1:24:59

come to Toronto. Wow. So did you

1:25:01

come up and see like any of the stuff that

1:25:03

was happening in Yorkville back then? Like the ugly ducklings

1:25:05

or any of that kind of stuff? No,

1:25:08

I didn't see any of that. But I

1:25:10

did go to the Festival Express at CNE.

1:25:13

Yeah, I came up

1:25:15

for that. And I came up for

1:25:17

another show at at

1:25:19

the stadium. Not not the one with

1:25:22

John Lennon. But it was like in

1:25:24

69 or 70. I

1:25:26

came up for another big rock show in

1:25:28

Canada. I can't remember who was playing at

1:25:30

that one. It's not the Alice Cooper one

1:25:32

with the chicken is it? It

1:25:35

might have been. Oh, really? I

1:25:37

was pretty high on acid on

1:25:39

that weekend. And I don't really remember much

1:25:41

any of it. But I just

1:25:43

remember on the way back hitchhiking back with

1:25:46

my friend that we got stuck

1:25:48

outside of Erie, Pennsylvania and started raining. So

1:25:50

we slept under a highway bridge. And

1:25:53

that's basically my only memory of

1:25:55

that weekend is is waking up

1:25:57

under that bridge. And

1:26:00

And then hitchhiking back to Cleveland Well,

1:26:03

we can actually come up here We got to do a road trip

1:26:06

version of this and we can walk that

1:26:08

route and record the podcast walking around Toronto

1:26:11

That would be really nice. I'd love to see the

1:26:13

sights. I I haven't really spent some time in Toronto

1:26:15

in a long time Maybe we can just maybe we

1:26:17

can get that together soon Thank

1:26:23

You Craig for coming on the

1:26:25

show and I Had

1:26:28

to cut it short of there because I do do

1:26:30

some stuff for the the fam but my gosh There's

1:26:33

a lot more to get to with Craig. So You're

1:26:36

right there Craig will be back for a part two at some

1:26:38

point in the future Check out

1:26:40

Craig Bell comm check out

1:26:43

the gizmos cuz Craig plays with the gizmos check out

1:26:45

anything this guy does Legend

1:26:49

a true punk legend All

1:26:52

right, that's it for me for

1:26:54

this week on the show coming up

1:26:57

on the next episode speaking

1:26:59

of punk rock legends From

1:27:02

the band bratmobile from

1:27:04

front peas and peaches as well the

1:27:09

legendary Molly

1:27:12

Newman it's gonna be on the podcast This

1:27:14

is a great conversation with a very

1:27:17

important person in punk

1:27:19

in the history of punk and very

1:27:22

cool for this week on the show coming up

1:27:24

on the next episode

1:27:27

speaking of punk rock legends

1:27:30

From the band bratmobile from

1:27:33

front peas and peaches as well the

1:27:37

legendary Molly

1:27:40

Newman it's gonna be on the podcast This

1:27:43

is a great conversation with a very

1:27:45

important person in punk

1:27:48

and the history of punk and a very

1:27:51

cool person to talk to some great stories some real

1:27:53

interesting to anyone I'm not gonna why do I have

1:27:55

to sell it to you? I just said

1:27:57

Molly from bratmobiles on the podcast and you're gonna listen You

1:28:01

know what's good for you? You're going to listen. All

1:28:03

right. That's it for me. Remember as

1:28:05

always, black lives matter, the lives

1:28:07

and issues faced by indigenous peoples

1:28:09

all over the world matter.

1:28:13

We need to protect trans kids and help trans

1:28:15

people protect themselves and their rights and stop hating

1:28:17

violence towards people of different faiths and different identities,

1:28:20

different nationalities, different races, because we're

1:28:23

not talking about politics. It's just

1:28:25

basic human rights. Shit. I,

1:28:28

there's nothing more basic than this stuff in

1:28:31

terms of what people deserve. People

1:28:33

deserve to be able to live free from

1:28:36

hate, violence, and discrimination. Ceasefires

1:28:38

are just basic human rights stuff.

1:28:42

The, the, the right to choose what you want

1:28:45

to do with your reproductive system, that's just

1:28:47

like a basic human

1:28:49

right that people deserve to have. So

1:28:51

if there's organizations in your communities that

1:28:53

are affecting positive change that

1:28:55

you feel could use your support, get involved,

1:28:59

donate your time. Maybe they need some

1:29:01

money. You can donate money for administration

1:29:03

things or whatnot, but, uh,

1:29:06

you'll, you'll feel better once you get involved. Speaking

1:29:09

of things that get better when you get involved, punk,

1:29:13

anyone can do this shit, like literally any,

1:29:16

any fool. Look at me. Don't

1:29:19

waste your life getting addicted to it

1:29:21

and throwing it on the train. It's just obsessing with

1:29:23

it, being up here in the middle

1:29:25

of the night, talking to yourself about it. But

1:29:28

yeah, you do a lot of things that are

1:29:30

a lot healthier than doing a podcast involved in

1:29:32

punk. Start a band. Sir,

1:29:35

look at Craig now. Look what they did. What

1:29:38

they did, uh,

1:29:41

donate your organs, sign

1:29:45

your organ donor cards, because it makes

1:29:47

miracles happen. I've seen it with my own eyes. And,

1:29:51

uh, try meditating. So

1:29:54

you don't have to follow a specific practice. You don't have

1:29:56

to buy an app. You

1:29:59

just. Try it and

1:30:01

then if you get into it, then there's other things you

1:30:04

can kind of investigate, but just try it and seek with

1:30:06

it Do it

1:30:08

until one day it clicks because I swear

1:30:10

it feels so fucking good when it does

1:30:12

click And

1:30:15

I am like I'm not an expert at all like

1:30:18

it all right. I'm rambling

1:30:20

now. Thank you everyone for listening