0:27

Hello and welcome to another edition of Turned

0:29

Out. I'm your host, Damian Abraham, and once

0:31

again I'm bringing you a conversation with someone

0:33

who grew up listening to punk. May

0:35

or may not still be involved with punk, but either life

0:37

changed by the genre in a major way. And today on

0:40

the show, my buddy, my

0:42

pal from the band

0:44

Panthers, from the band, newly

0:46

reformed band Orchid, from

0:49

the new solo project

0:51

Jason Green and the Jerks,

0:54

and the new proprietor of

0:56

a fantastic bar here in Toronto,

0:59

Doc's Green Door Lounge, Jason

1:01

Green returns to the show

1:03

for a, yeah, this is a,

1:06

this is a raw conversation. This is

1:08

just two people laying it all out

1:10

there. And I'm excited for you to

1:12

hear it one second, because first, if

1:15

you'd like to get in touch with me,

1:17

head over to the email address, turnedoutapunkpodcastatgmail.com. That

1:20

is run by my brother and normally

1:22

show producer, well, no, always show producer,

1:24

normally guest booker, but I could

1:27

handle booking this one all on my own. Tristan

1:29

Abraham, thank you Tristan for all the hard work you do

1:31

and he will get the message to me. You

1:33

can also find me on Twitter or

1:36

Instagram at left for Damian. There

1:38

is a TikTok page, a Facebook

1:41

page, an Instagram page, and a YouTube page

1:43

for turned out a punk. All those can

1:45

be found at turned out

1:47

a punk on those respective platforms. If you want to

1:49

support the show, tell all your friends about it. Let

1:51

them all know that you enjoy

1:54

this podcast that we do. I'm thinking

1:58

safe to say now twice a week. I'm

2:00

back to doing them twice a week and spread

2:04

the word. You can find out

2:06

about the stuff I'm doing in my band. We

2:08

are currently on tour. Go

2:10

over to fuckedup.cc and check out where we're playing

2:12

with SuperChunk if you're on the west coast of

2:14

the United States when you hear this episode. I

2:17

think when you hear this we got a few more dates. Pretty

2:21

sure. Pretty sure. So see

2:23

you on the road. Talk to me about

2:25

this episode. Talk to me about all these episodes. Come on and hang

2:27

out. Also check out fuckedup.cc

2:29

for records and merch and all

2:31

sorts of goins

2:33

on with the band. Alright

2:38

on to today's show. Today on the show

2:40

as I said off the top someone has

2:42

accomplished a lot since he got to Toronto

2:44

and has accomplished a lot before he came

2:46

to Toronto but Jason Green. Someone

2:49

that I've always been a big

2:52

fan of. Certainly someone who has

2:54

had a lot of different places in music over

2:56

the years. There's a bit of a

2:58

Zellig type character showing up in all sorts

3:01

of different places. Probably the only guy in

3:04

the world that was asked to join

3:06

Hate Breed that is also

3:08

part of LCD's sound system. I think I'm fairly

3:10

safe in saying that. Anyway,

3:12

Jason is someone who has got

3:15

a lot going on as I said off the top. Got a new bar.

3:17

Doc's Green Door Lounge here in Toronto. Reformed

3:21

the Orchid which is something that we

3:23

talk about a lot in this episode.

3:26

And got this great solo record

3:28

produced by James Murphy from the aforementioned

3:31

LCD sound system and it

3:33

is released on DFA Records. I love this record.

3:35

It kind of reminds me of old

3:39

Cleveland stuff. Anyway,

3:42

old New York kind of fancy disco punk-y

3:44

stuff. You'll hear it. And

3:47

it's available to listen to

3:49

on all social media platforms. No streaming

3:51

platforms. I'm sure it's

3:53

on some social media platforms too. Alright

3:56

I'm not going to yammer on anymore. Check

3:58

out Tour Dates for Orchid

4:00

where they're playing they've got a bunch of shows announced

4:02

a bunch of them are already sold out You

4:05

can also find it about other stuff that

4:07

Jason Green is up to on social media

4:10

find him at this

4:13

Jay Green on

4:15

Instagram and calm and If

4:17

you just search this stuff, but check out Jason

4:19

Green and the jerks that's available on all those

4:22

streaming platforms I mentioned before all

4:24

right. I'm not gonna yammer on anymore. Check

4:26

out Jason's bar. Check out the records to

4:28

go Sit

4:30

back relax and enjoy Jason Green on turned out a

4:32

punk Thanks

4:39

for having me you're in the basement again. Yeah,

4:42

how many times can I be in the basement?

4:44

probably too many For

4:47

me never enough. Oh, no, I love it. I

4:49

love the basement. It's always there's always interesting stuff

4:52

to look at That's for sure.

4:54

Yeah, I'm always staring at your demo tips.

4:56

I got some yeah, I definitely have some

4:58

demo tapes on display There's a there's

5:00

like an aesthetic quality to them that that

5:03

I'm glad they have because right now my

5:05

last tape deck broke It's

5:11

a bad format It's a bad format But I do

5:13

find myself looking and seeing ones that I also have

5:15

and then seeing lots that I don't being like I

5:17

think I need Those demo tapes and I haven't had

5:19

a working tape deck probably about 15 years

5:22

Have you ever seen that I think it's like a Thurston Moore

5:25

photo where he's like in a wall in front of a wall

5:27

of tapes I think I know I don't know if I've seen

5:29

it I don't know why

5:31

it's very obscure as I'm saying that I'm like maybe

5:34

using this other but anyway There's he's a from

5:36

this wall of tapes I'm always thought like that

5:38

was my dream is to have like a wall

5:40

of tapes and well you're getting there. Yeah Yeah,

5:42

definitely my kids will have a lot of

5:44

garbage to deal with what yeah That's the

5:46

that's the only gift you can give them

5:48

is now you have to throw this out

5:51

Yeah, I really do feel like all these

5:53

things where I'm like Well, this is an

5:55

amazing investment at $25 for this like random

5:57

old demo tape. They're gonna be like Pennies

6:01

on the dollar at best. It's only going

6:03

to appreciate and value kids. Yes, absolutely. That

6:05

will be the riff-raff demo. Well

6:08

welcome back to the show. Thanks

6:12

man, glad to be back. Well I'm very

6:14

excited to have you back because your new

6:16

record is fantastic. Thank you. And you've got

6:18

a bar now? Yeah.

6:21

So I guess the,

6:25

when I first moved from Brooklyn

6:27

to Toronto, you

6:30

know I left behind like

6:32

my whole social circle, my work,

6:36

and I moved up here and I had nothing

6:39

going on. Like I, you know, I was basically

6:41

just like going to Home

6:43

Depot and doing laundry and running

6:45

errands. Didn't really know anybody. And

6:50

so I started, I guess, started putting

6:52

some irons in the fire thinking maybe one thing

6:54

would click off and then everything happened at the

6:57

exact same time. So yeah, now

6:59

I've just opened a bar in the junction

7:01

in Toronto called Doc's Greendoor Lounge. Congratulations.

7:04

Thanks. In a few

7:06

short months you've accomplished more than I've

7:09

accomplished in 40 plus years. I

7:12

don't know if that's true. You

7:15

put it on a solo record. Yeah. Well,

7:17

you put on other solo stuff too. But

7:20

I mean, to be fair, that the A

7:22

side of that, oh no, I'm sorry,

7:24

the B side, the B

7:26

side of that record was recorded during

7:28

the Obama administration. So that's been around

7:30

for a long time. We've

7:33

just tried to figure out, kind

7:35

of finish the record and figure out a home for it

7:37

and all that stuff. So yeah, yeah. Yeah,

7:39

I'm happy it's out. I'm happy it's out. Do

7:41

you feel like the same sentiment about the B side?

7:44

The B side is kind of cutting. And

7:50

for me it feels like that was a

7:52

different mentality than now.

7:56

That I have personally? Or just for the world? I do

7:58

have for the world. Maybe. I

8:00

mean, I was at that time, I also

8:03

I have a friend named Marcus who does a

8:05

project on DFA called Shit Robot, which

8:08

is great, by the way, people haven't heard it, you

8:10

should check it out. He has a new

8:12

record that just came out as well on DFA. But

8:14

he was putting on a record and he, he

8:17

produces the music, but he doesn't he's not a singer or

8:19

anything. So he likes to have guest vocalists. And

8:21

he asked me to do vocals on a song.

8:25

And he's like, I just kind of want you to be ranting about

8:28

and he gave me some references, you know, so

8:31

I wrote this long kind of ranty

8:33

song, and then send it to him and then

8:35

he cut stuff out. And

8:37

cut it together came out great. We made a music

8:39

video for it. That's really fun. That's on

8:42

YouTube. And

8:45

so a lot of this stuff

8:47

that he cut became the

8:50

lyrics to the B side of it's called I need

8:52

love of the

8:54

new 12 inch. So there's a lot he is

8:56

a DJ, I'm a DJ. And

8:58

there was this feeling of a time that everybody on earth was a DJ.

9:02

And I think I had, you know, you

9:05

spend enough time in that world, it's easy to

9:07

get jaded with anything. But

9:09

I had a line that said it's not very cool to be

9:11

a DJ in your 40s. And he's in his 50s. I'm in

9:13

my 40s. And

9:16

he's like, this isn't going in the song. And I was like,

9:18

Okay, fair enough. And then I so I put it in my

9:20

own song, and then kind of built around that. But

9:23

yeah, I mean, I don't know, I've always I think

9:25

we got a review in on Brooklyn vegan, and it

9:27

said something like being

9:30

like a dickhead wise ass has always served Jason

9:32

greenwell as a vocalist or something like that. Something

9:35

along those lines. So yeah, it

9:39

will because it played to me almost

9:41

like nostalgia

9:44

for that time when there were

9:46

too many DJ nights when there were when everyone

9:48

was a DJ where you could

9:50

go out and just club pop

9:53

in a way that doesn't

9:55

seem as viable now like we're now you

9:57

go out and sing. and

10:00

kind of like, maybe since we're just, I'm

10:02

older too? Yeah, I think that's probably, it's

10:04

definitely, DJ culture is still really huge and

10:06

vibrant, and there's lots of, I mean, there's

10:09

young people doing it all over the place,

10:11

all the time, but where the bar that

10:13

I'm at, it's in this

10:15

sleepy neighborhood called The Junction, and there's a

10:17

warehouse behind it has raves every night. Yeah.

10:19

I mean, people are, it's still happening. Kids

10:23

will find a way, but I think it's

10:25

harder now in

10:27

terms of finding venues to do stuff. Could

10:31

be, I mean, I don't know, I always, I found

10:33

this, I had that feeling in, when I

10:35

was in Brooklyn, and I was kind of like, oh,

10:37

there's all the venues have closed, like

10:39

all the kind of independent venues. Then

10:42

you realize that there's, of course, kids are fucking throwing

10:44

shows that I don't know about. Like, why would I

10:46

know about it? I'm an old man, and they're still

10:48

doing it. I mean, this is like hardcore shows or

10:51

parties or, you know, DJ nights, and, I

10:54

mean, listen, if you go, I

10:57

can't speak to Toronto as much culturally,

10:59

but in Brooklyn, you know, you can't

11:02

throw a rock without hitting a DJ

11:04

still. I mean, everyone's kind of a

11:06

DJ. And it's not even

11:08

really, yeah, I

11:11

don't know. There's an affection to it, and

11:13

I'm also kind of making fun of myself, because I spent,

11:16

I mean, I've spent many, many years DJing since I was

11:18

like 18. So,

11:22

yeah, yeah. The knife is

11:24

pointed towards me as well. Yeah, I

11:26

know, I get the knife's pointed towards

11:28

you, but I think just in terms

11:31

of aging, I think you

11:33

brought up earlier 40, and,

11:36

you know, your friend obviously being 50. I

11:39

think there's a difference in the way what you do is appreciated at

11:41

40 and 50. I

11:44

had a friend one time call me, and it probably

11:46

doesn't want me to say their name, but a friend

11:48

called me one night and was just like lamenting

11:51

the fact that no one's gonna take us seriously

11:53

in our 40s and then in 50s,

11:56

people come back to you and

11:58

start respecting your heart again. That's

12:01

funny I've never thought about that. I've been

12:03

asked a few in podcasts before, what

12:06

new music are you listening to? My

12:08

answer is always the same. If

12:11

you're over 40, no one should give a shit what you're listening

12:13

to. But

12:17

John Peel was able to kind of keep it.

12:19

No, of course, there's always people that can

12:22

do that stuff. Marcus Schirubat's a

12:24

great example. He's an incredible

12:26

DJ. The too many DJ

12:28

guys, James Murphy,

12:30

all these friends of mine,

12:33

Pat Mahoney. These guys

12:35

are all older, amazing taste,

12:38

great selectors, so fun to watch play.

12:41

It doesn't really... It was... Yeah.

12:45

I was being a wise ass, I guess is the

12:47

short answer. I'm fascinated

12:49

by how you do eventually age

12:52

out of the zeitgeist of

12:54

what this is. And at the same time, you have

12:56

to find your own place. Dance

13:02

music culture or just music culture? Music culture in general. Finding

13:05

your own place to produce it and still... Obviously,

13:09

there's a drive to make stuff

13:11

that keeps people doing it, but

13:13

at the same time, also finding where

13:16

you fit into the world

13:18

of it. Yeah. And

13:20

I think I've personally never had a... To

13:23

my detriment, never really had a careerist

13:25

attitude about music ever. So I

13:28

kind of just would go where my whimsy

13:30

would take me from project

13:32

to project. Just whatever I want

13:35

to work on that seemed cool. And I've had things that I've

13:37

done decently well. And I have things that

13:39

have eaten massive shits that no one

13:41

cared about at all. And

13:43

I don't know. I mean, I don't know that there

13:45

is... I think you can't

13:48

be too calculated about it. You just have to... I

13:51

think for me, such a big thing with music is authenticity.

13:54

If it feels authentically coming from that

13:56

person, even if it's not for me,

13:58

I feel like it can find... to home with some

14:00

people, so it's going to resonate with somebody if

14:03

it feels true to the

14:05

person making the thing. It feels

14:07

like you're trying to get something going, like cook

14:09

something out, then people, it's a little harder, I

14:11

think. But

14:14

not to keep going back to the DJ stuff, but

14:17

I also came to mind DJ Harvey,

14:19

who's one of the great DJs

14:21

of all time. He's still going, he's still amazing, and

14:25

he's never done what's popular. But

14:29

people love him. And I think there

14:31

is something to that. Just being like, I remember

14:34

I was DJing, I was opening up for LCD DJing,

14:36

I had to DJ between sets, so I started off,

14:38

I did my first of two, it just

14:41

wasn't working. I was kind of like chasing the crowd

14:43

around trying to make him happy. And

14:46

then I came off stage and

14:48

I was like, man, that sucked. And

14:50

James is like, just play something you like. Who

14:53

cares? I was like, oh, that's good

14:55

advice. You really need to

14:57

trust your taste. And if you start questioning

14:59

it, I think that's when you get into some trouble. I

15:02

think as a DJ, you can age, there's

15:04

a path for aging gracefully that's not

15:06

necessarily there in... No,

15:09

for sure. ...really not punk. But

15:12

you, I mean, you definitely, yeah, no,

15:14

certainly not punk. But

15:18

I mean, you see it, but it is

15:20

tougher. You suffer, yeah. There's people

15:22

that do it, obviously, but it is... It's

15:25

a young person's game. Because you

15:27

have to put yourself out there. And I

15:29

think DJs benefit from being slightly mysterious. Yeah.

15:32

I was watching interviews with... I'm not going to

15:35

talk shit about the actual DJ, but there was...

15:37

I was watching interviews with a very popular DJ

15:39

that just for some reason showed up on my

15:42

phone, because obviously it's listening to me and it probably

15:44

will now feed me more of this. And

15:48

I was just thinking how the demystification of

15:50

this person is just so much

15:53

to their detriment, because you're

15:56

afforded the luxury of being mysterious as

15:58

a DJ. I had that

16:00

even, I had that experience when

16:03

I watched that Sparks documentary. Like

16:05

they were such a mystery to me. I

16:07

didn't know anything about those guys. I liked those records a

16:10

lot. Then I watched the documentary and I

16:12

left it being like, I don't think I like Sparks. Like

16:15

I know too much now. Like they're

16:17

not interesting. You know, Kiss

16:20

Without the Makeup is not quite as fun as

16:22

Kiss With the Makeup on, you know. But

16:24

this era is all about Kiss Without the

16:26

Makeup. Well there is so much and I

16:28

think that comes a lot from, I think

16:31

from SoundCloud, YouTube, people

16:34

having direct access to artists and what a

16:36

lot of people want is they want to

16:38

be able to see themselves being able to

16:40

do, I'm just a regular guy. I'm just

16:42

a, I'm nice. I'm a normal person and

16:44

like that's the last thing I want from

16:47

an artist. But they're not

16:49

too. It's still that augmented version of

16:51

reality that we were getting from I

16:53

guess reality TV but we're

16:55

getting from Kiss when they're on

16:57

stage with all that makeup on. My

16:59

kids will watch these YouTubers or these

17:02

YouTube families do these things and they'll

17:04

be like, oh it's just great watching

17:06

a normal person doing

17:08

normal things. It's not

17:10

normal when you watch it. It's like that's lighting. They definitely

17:12

have lighting going on. No I know. And

17:14

of course they're doing multiple takes of

17:17

this shit. This is not real real

17:19

but yet it's being

17:21

presented as being real real. Which

17:23

Kiss wasn't. I was saying this

17:26

is a fucking fantasy. And then

17:28

you think of shows like

17:30

The Voice or something which I think was sort

17:33

of maybe a canary in the coal

17:35

mine of this whole phenomenon of

17:37

just like, hey I'm just a regular

17:39

guy off the street. And

17:42

you think about someone like David Bowie on The Voice.

17:44

No one would turn their chair around. You know what

17:47

I mean? It's

17:51

a natural progression of the way things

17:53

go with more access when things get

17:55

democratized. There is an argument to be

17:57

made for gatekeepers. to

18:00

be made for people with taste

18:02

choosing artists who are interesting or weird

18:04

and having faith in those artists. It

18:07

still exists, but we live

18:09

in a world where Ed Sheeran, the

18:12

music sounds like running water, fine.

18:15

I can see some appeal to pop

18:17

music. Who would fuck Ed Sheeran? You know what I

18:19

mean? I'm sure people do. But to

18:23

me, he's not a rock star. He's

18:27

not a star. It's

18:29

like what you like gone wrong, where

18:32

there is no popular sphere

18:35

anymore. I was

18:37

thinking about this, I was looking at a friend

18:39

who has really good taste in movies, their top

18:41

10 movies, because I'm so fucking out of touch

18:43

on film, even more

18:45

than music. I was looking

18:47

at their list and I'm like, really?

18:52

Magic Mike 3 is even

18:54

in the conversation. I

18:56

love bad movies. I get off on

18:58

watching bad movies, but that was just

19:02

unwatchably, awkwardly bad. Yeah, that was a very

19:04

bad film. It was made

19:06

a Zoom call. I

19:10

just recently rewatched The Net with Sandra Bullock and

19:13

it's like tense typing. Such

19:18

a major plot point in that film. It's

19:23

weird. There is this sort of

19:25

flattening of culture that's happened. But

19:29

there's always stuff in the corners. There's

19:31

always weird things to find. It's

19:34

just getting a little bit ... There

19:37

was weird stuff in mainstream culture. There

19:40

was outsiders in mainstream culture. I mean, Sylvester is

19:42

a great example. Outselling

19:45

the Stones. There's

19:49

this giant trans person performing

19:53

these crazy disco songs.

19:57

Very, not really defining

19:59

their sexuality. not defining it, but you know,

20:01

it just, and then they were the

20:03

number one on the

20:05

pop charts. That

20:08

was like in the culture, and now there's just

20:10

not as much stuff like that.

20:13

There's not as many

20:15

weirdos making really, really popular music. I

20:19

think there are. I think, but it's

20:21

now you can subsist in your own

20:23

little families. Like, little Uzi Vert is

20:26

making weird ass music.

20:29

It's not really what I

20:31

listen to. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean,

20:33

but it's weird. Hip hop has always

20:35

been, I think, a place where

20:38

you can find the most interesting things

20:41

that touches the popular culture

20:43

sphere. And I think the

20:46

things you find that young kids respond

20:48

to in that

20:51

world. Yeah, there's

20:54

a lot of like that. What's his face that I'm

20:56

going to get the first one? Like kosher

20:59

dude. I mean, what

21:02

a fucking weirdo. And it's cool. And

21:04

it sounds like it doesn't sound like other stuff.

21:07

You know, there's so many things like that. I talked

21:09

to my nephew who was he's 15. He

21:12

has no interest in punk music or anything like that. But

21:15

he's interested in hip hop. And he'll

21:17

be listening to like weird SoundCloud

21:19

stuff. That's really abrasive, aggressive, strange.

21:24

And that I think I think that has

21:27

been the case for a long time. Like when I was growing

21:30

up, the regionality of hip hop was so real,

21:32

like you could there you'd find

21:35

these little micro scenes. It's almost like when you

21:37

think about how metal is classified in these little

21:39

micro genres. Hip hop was like that

21:41

too, you know, you'd find these different

21:43

tiny little scenes like in one neighborhood of Atlanta,

21:45

they played this kind of music, you know, and

21:47

I think that's still kind of happening. And I

21:49

think that's interesting. Yeah,

21:53

there's a lot of like that. What's his face that I'm

21:56

gonna get the first one? Like kosher.

22:00

dude, I mean, what

22:02

a fucking weirdo. And it's cool, and

22:04

it sounds like, doesn't sound like other stuff.

22:07

You know, there's so many things like that. I

22:09

talked to my nephew who was, he's 15. He

22:12

has no interest in punk music or anything like that,

22:14

but he's interested in hip hop. And

22:16

he'll be listening to like weird

22:19

SoundCloud stuff. That's really abrasive, aggressive,

22:21

strange. And

22:24

that, I think that has

22:27

been the case for a long time. When I was growing

22:30

up, the regionality of hip hop was so

22:32

real, you could, you'd

22:34

find these little micro scenes. It's almost like when

22:37

you think about how metal is classified in these

22:39

little micro genres. Hip hop was

22:41

like that too. You'd find these

22:43

different tiny little scenes, like in one neighborhood of

22:45

Atlanta, they played this kind of music. And I

22:48

think that's still kind of happening. And I think

22:50

that's interesting. Harcourt had

22:52

that too, a regional identity

22:54

with certain sounds. Like there's,

22:56

it comes up on the show, but

22:58

the difference between epithet

23:02

pop punk type stuff, which on

23:04

the West Coast was popular mainstream

23:06

music. Here was kind

23:09

of the weird music still in a way,

23:11

even though it was popular. But

23:13

even more with power violence. For power violence

23:16

on the Bay Area West Coast was like

23:18

real deal, like tag, dudes that

23:20

did tagging. Yeah, that was, that

23:22

truly was like a very regional micro scene. Yeah.

23:25

And of course, something I became obsessed

23:27

with because it is, and it did

23:29

have mystery. And it was, yeah, yeah.

23:31

I mean, I think this stuff still happens.

23:34

It's just, you don't find it as much

23:36

in popular popular culture. Well,

23:38

I think there, because what

23:40

you're saying earlier, like the idea of

23:43

a band breaking through, like a truly

23:45

weird band getting mainstream

23:47

attention. And people would bring

23:49

up Nirvana. I think that's people's go-to. I

23:51

think the offspring more than Nirvana. All

23:54

right, what about the presidents of the United States

23:56

of America? Yeah, that's another one. Like, listen, not

23:58

a good band, but who the fuck. would put

24:00

those guys out now. You know what I mean? Yeah.

24:02

I think the same with the

24:04

offspring. Weird bands.

24:07

Totally weird bands. So record

24:09

sounds weird to you. Nirvana.

24:12

Huge hit. Yeah, Nirvana is like a no-brainer. You look

24:14

at Nirvana and you're like, okay, I can see these

24:16

guys can sell. I can market this. Yeah, I mean,

24:18

and then the way that... And

24:20

this is the time where decisions

24:23

were kind of made for the culture at large

24:26

by executives and record companies.

24:29

Like I just watched that documentary about Woodstock 99 and the

24:31

lineup, you know,

24:34

like I knew I was

24:36

around when corn was popular. And

24:39

I remember them being popular, but I feel like

24:41

I was still shocked

24:43

to see 200,000 people going apeshit for corn.

24:45

Do you know what I mean? Power

24:50

of MTV back then. Yeah,

24:53

and I think that... And now it's

24:56

a little bit more democratized, so it's

24:59

a little flatter in a weird way. Because there isn't somebody

25:01

being like, no, you guys are going to

25:03

listen to corn. We're going to play this all the time. This is going

25:05

to be on the radio. It doesn't happen

25:07

as much that way. But there are

25:10

still... And maybe these are

25:12

like unconscious machinations that go on, but

25:14

there's still... Like I knew turnstile

25:17

was going to be huge. Like I knew it

25:19

was going to break through because it felt like

25:21

everything was pulling towards that for

25:23

years. Like it took three

25:25

records to get there, but it

25:28

always felt like everything was kind of

25:30

steering that towards this thing. And there

25:32

was never... Like there

25:34

isn't that sort of radio programmers like,

25:37

get on K-Rock, once you get that hit single on

25:39

K-Rock, other radio will pick you up and then you

25:41

can do this thing and that thing. It's not that...

25:44

Like you're saying, it's democratized now, so it's not the same

25:46

sort of path. But there

25:48

does feel like there's still, I

25:50

don't know, maybe certain intangibles that you can kind

25:52

of see where things just kind of... Definitely. And

25:54

I think a lot of it has to do

25:56

with timing and presentation

25:58

and... you know,

26:00

luck is a big part of it for some people

26:02

as well. But yeah,

26:05

the turnstile thing is, I

26:08

know this is a ban that also people

26:11

really hate on. But

26:15

to see something like that kind

26:17

of touch mainstream culture I think is interesting.

26:19

And it's kind of cool. And

26:23

it doesn't feel like it's coming from, it

26:26

does feel earnest to me. Like it feels like

26:28

these are kids are making stuff they want to

26:30

make. Like they're not trying to be something that

26:33

they're not to whatever degree. Maybe that's me guessing.

26:36

But yeah, yeah, it is interesting to see that. It's

26:38

just, we don't see a ton of it. I

26:40

mean, hardcore music is having a moment now. I

26:44

think maybe that's because things are shrinking in

26:47

terms of like mainstream culture where now hardcore looks

26:49

a lot bigger than it

26:51

did as the water levels

26:54

are rising in terms of media

26:56

that's out there. Hardcore as a

26:58

scene, it looks a lot

27:00

larger. I think the same thing kind of happened

27:02

with wrestling too. Where wrestling went

27:04

from being this sort of niche part of

27:07

popular culture to now being such a mainstream

27:09

part of popular culture that people like can

27:11

see how big it is. And it

27:13

feels like maybe that's happening with hardcore a little bit too. Yeah,

27:16

I mean, there was definitely a long period of

27:18

time in my life where I

27:20

never even wanted to say I was in

27:22

hardcore band of people who didn't know about

27:25

hardcore because then it's, well, what's hardcore? Yeah, you have

27:27

to explain. So I was like, I'm in a punk

27:29

band. You know, now that's

27:31

changed for sure. Yeah,

27:36

I don't know. I mean, you can't really, it's like spinning

27:38

in the wind to try to, you don't

27:40

want to also sound like an old person complaining about

27:42

how things used to be better. And I don't even

27:44

know that that's true exactly. But

27:48

yeah, it just, it seems a little harder

27:50

to find your way to stuff. And

27:54

when you have your fingertips are able

27:56

to touch everything, it's

27:58

harder to find things special to

28:00

you personally. Yeah, I

28:02

don't think we're complaining. No, no, like that's

28:04

that's the idea. No, I don't think we're

28:07

coming off as complaining. At least I hope

28:09

we're not because I think it's just acknowledging

28:11

that there is a change in the fact

28:13

that it's almost like celebrating the fact that

28:15

people still find it.

28:17

People still build it. People

28:20

still there's still an underground scene.

28:22

There's still DIY bands. There's still like

28:25

a realness to it because

28:27

it is getting harder as

28:29

stuff is getting less special

28:31

to make something special. Yeah, and I think the

28:34

pressure builds up in terms of if

28:36

culture ends up being getting

28:38

more and more bland, you

28:41

know, this even goes into film

28:43

or Twitter will

28:46

be screaming and yelling about some Star Wars

28:48

character and then we got to put that

28:50

guy in the mood. You know what I

28:52

mean? Yeah. Like these idiots are like these

28:54

complete morons on Twitter are like deciding how

28:56

films are made. It's not great. And so

28:58

I think it builds up pressure where

29:01

people are desperate to find something

29:03

interesting, desperate to find something that's

29:05

unique and weird and outside

29:07

of these boundaries. And I think it does

29:09

end up creating really interesting art ultimately.

29:12

And I think it's starting to we're starting to see

29:14

that and you always will see it a little bit,

29:16

but I think it's gonna be like a it's gonna

29:18

be a big explosion of cool stuff coming because

29:20

of all this, I think. I would

29:22

I kind of look long for like what

29:25

the reviews of Batman or how Twitter would

29:27

have reacted to like the

29:29

89 Batman. Oh yeah. Oh

29:32

I mean, they were so mad about Michael

29:34

Keaton. There was no internet, but they were

29:36

still just like, I'm not seeing this. People

29:38

are like protesting movie theaters, but

29:41

they still did it, you know. Yeah.

29:43

Yeah. Back then you

29:45

could be like, well fuck that fan

29:47

base. Like that, who cares about that

29:49

fan base? No one's gonna hear them

29:51

screaming. Like we have to get a

29:53

Zack Snyder cut because these fucking bedwetters

29:56

are tweeting about it. I watched all

29:58

five hours and I did. God,

30:00

it's the worst fucking thing. Yeah,

30:04

that stuff is like, you're not in the

30:06

film business. You

30:09

know, stay out of this creative stuff. You're not a

30:11

creative person, you know. You're like,

30:13

a little mermaid can't be black. It's like,

30:15

get the fuck out of here. You're

30:18

a grown-up. You

30:20

know, that stuff drives me up a wall. And

30:25

that does have a direct effect on

30:28

how a lot of mainstream films are made. I

30:30

mean, I think

30:32

with Star Wars, the reboot, it was

30:34

so like trying to just cater to

30:36

like as many possible Star Wars fans

30:38

as possible. And it ends up being

30:41

fun for nobody, basically. And

30:44

if that gets into real film culture, if that

30:46

gets into interesting musical, like that

30:49

stuff is not going to be

30:51

good. But

30:55

it has to kind of in a way,

30:57

because it does affect you. Like the negative

30:59

reviews, no matter how... Oh,

31:02

you mean in terms of as an artist, if you read

31:04

a negative review, you're like, oh, I need to... But that's

31:06

what I mean. And I think even like the studios as

31:09

these not in the John Kerry corporations

31:11

or people kind of way, but like these

31:14

studios, their feelings

31:17

are their finances. And

31:19

they're like, well, if we did this, maybe it would work

31:21

out this time. Like maybe we could get the

31:24

audience back if we... Yeah,

31:26

for sure. And I've definitely... And

31:28

it does work sometimes. But you

31:30

have to be discerning about... If

31:33

I get negative stuff tweeted to me about

31:35

myself on Twitter, which does

31:38

happen, I'm pretty quickly

31:41

easily... It's easily discernible

31:43

if it's something that is a valid critique

31:45

or if it's someone who's just angry

31:47

and wants to lash out about something. Yeah.

31:53

I don't

31:55

know. I don't think... I

32:00

don't think, yeah, I feel like crowdsourcing

32:02

for stuff like this is not, I

32:05

don't think it does work. When does it work? Barbie.

32:09

You think that was crowdsourced? I don't think, I think

32:11

there's, and I, I know there's a very controversial opinion.

32:13

This might be the most controversial shit I've ever seen

32:15

on this podcast. No disrespect to that

32:17

movie. The movie did obviously an incredible box office.

32:19

I saw it with my kids. They loved it.

32:21

It wasn't for me. No. In

32:24

that way. I don't think they had Damien in mind.

32:26

No, but there was a reference to Kubrick. So I

32:28

felt like I was served in that way. Sure. There

32:32

was, I felt like it

32:34

was a movie that served

32:37

the audience. And this was, why it's

32:39

a successful movie? Like this is not

32:41

a criticism. It served every audience that

32:43

it was there for. Yeah.

32:46

Well, I have this, I have a, it's

32:49

not a hard and fast rule, but I have a pretty good rule

32:51

of thumb. So one of the

32:54

worst things that have ever been invented on earth

32:56

is rotten tomatoes. And

32:59

so if a movie is over 90% on

33:01

rotten tomatoes, I'm like, this is not good. This can't be

33:04

a good film. If it's like 70% to

33:07

50%, I'm like, there's something interesting

33:09

going on here. You

33:11

know, below 50, you're probably in bad territory.

33:13

But in that zone, if, if a movie

33:15

really upsets someone and then it

33:17

really excites somebody else, that probably means

33:19

it's more interesting than something that everyone's

33:22

just kind of like, that's fine. You know what I

33:24

mean? We all like this. It's

33:26

less exciting to me. So

33:29

I often will avoid movies that are, you

33:32

know, 100% on rotten tomatoes. Does that

33:34

apply to TV series too, or is

33:36

that exclusively film? I really have, this

33:39

is gonna make me so like such a grump, but

33:41

I'm like, like narrative television, I

33:43

can't think of a good narrative TV show that

33:45

I've seen in the past couple years. I

33:48

just don't like, like there's not very, to me,

33:50

I love film because it's a beginning, a middle

33:52

and an end. And a series

33:54

is a beginning, a middle, a middle, a middle, a

33:56

middle, a middle, and then either they get canceled or

33:59

they have to come up with something. You know? It's

34:01

just it's just it goes it doesn't nothing needs to

34:03

be I remember someone trying to tell me to get into

34:05

Game of Thrones right and

34:07

They're like it gets good after season three. I'm like that's

34:09

a lot of my life So

34:12

I've to watch a bad show for three

34:14

seasons, you know How many

34:16

Edward movies have you seen Edward

34:18

movies probably two really? There's

34:23

also a different there's a difference to

34:25

camp and there's a difference to enjoying

34:27

something There's a

34:29

pleasure to be had in oddball stuff

34:31

like Ed Wood and is

34:33

a good example of that But

34:35

as opposed to just very

34:37

sanitary television shows that just

34:39

I mean God,

34:42

I'd rather eat glass than watch Game of Thrones. Oh,

34:44

I hate Game Thrones I but for me I hate

34:46

it because it's I find it As

34:48

long as it's so dehumanizing the level of violence

34:50

and I find all that stuff to it And

34:54

I Warren will always critique me because

34:56

you're like you watch this you watch that. No,

34:58

I know it's just it's different how it's framed

35:01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean everyone's everyone's got different opinions about stuff

35:03

and I also you know, we've got a What

35:07

a Jerry Seinfeld is the joke that people say life is too

35:09

short. He's like life's too long And

35:11

we've got to fill in our lives with something

35:13

and I get it just for some

35:15

reason Narrative television. There's

35:17

very few narrative TV shows That

35:21

are current that I can get down with Medical

35:25

detectives was that a

35:27

show it was on Netflix. It was a it's

35:29

the people did Children's Hospital. Okay, and it's So

35:33

fortunately about a pathogen

35:35

and leading to a pandemic a little bit.

35:37

Okay, but it's very funny I

35:39

mean, there's definitely stuff. I'm not I'm not gonna pretend

35:41

like there isn't TV shows that I watch But I

35:44

find that to be even it's

35:46

one of the harder When

35:49

everyone's talking about a show and then I'm like this

35:51

thing I

35:54

found there was like you're

35:56

right because I think it's it's

35:58

changed the way people

36:03

consume these things.

36:05

You're not trying to make things

36:07

that are... And

36:09

you worked at a video store, you know what

36:12

it was like when people brought back that movie

36:14

and they're like, this fucking sucked. And it's like,

36:16

well, too bad you rented it. There's no refund,

36:18

true taste. There

36:20

was kind of like this, I committed,

36:24

I'm in for this. Because now it

36:26

feels like you're just trying to get

36:28

people to be like, okay with it. Are you

36:31

okay with it? You don't care if people love it or

36:33

hate it. As long as it's just okay

36:35

enough that it gets that 80. Yeah,

36:38

there's just this gaping maw for content. And

36:40

I found that back in the day when

36:42

you spend your hard-earned money on a record

36:44

and you put it on, you're like, oh

36:46

no, this is bad. But then you're

36:48

like, but I paid for this. So you sit with it, you listen

36:50

to it over and over again. And you usually find something in there.

36:53

And I think that that doesn't

36:55

happen quite as much anymore. And that's not to

36:58

say that you should force feed yourself bad content

37:01

just because you paid for it. But

37:04

that's the thing about the bad records. These

37:06

people thought they were good. And I'm sure

37:08

on some level, these people

37:10

producing these... I guess there's so many people

37:12

involved in the production of these TV shows

37:15

and movies that made the sense

37:17

of ownership isn't there in the same way. But

37:20

these people honestly thought these records that we

37:22

thought were terrible, like, oh my God, this

37:24

band's like, what the fuck is up with

37:27

this second uniform choice LP or anything of

37:29

that thing. They should be putting

37:31

their heart and soul into it and putting their

37:33

love into it. And honestly did say, this is

37:35

awesome. People are going to like this. They're going

37:37

to respond well to How We Rock. Yeah, yeah,

37:39

yeah, yeah. I bought it. I

37:44

think by the time I bought it, I'm sure with you,

37:46

it was already known that it was... Yeah.

37:48

But I was like, maybe people are wrong

37:50

about this. But yeah, yeah. Like the second

37:53

DYS record. Oh yeah, I am. Yeah. That's

37:55

a good record. I like it. Yeah, I

37:57

have it. I like it. I

38:00

had this person

38:03

on the other day, Devon Ross, who

38:06

is signed with like Thurston Moore's label

38:08

and she's kind of blowing up in

38:11

terms of like she's putting up the single this summer. It's

38:14

getting a lot of hype and she's got a huge following

38:16

on Instagram and dates Nick

38:18

Cave's son and it's kind of like labeled like

38:20

an eight couple and she's like an eight person

38:23

in fashion and things like that now.

38:27

She was on the show and it

38:29

was interesting how just

38:31

different the relationship to culture is. A

38:35

lot of younger people but also

38:37

she brought up that the meet me, she watched Meet Me

38:39

in the Bathroom and that was the last real

38:42

scene. She said that? Yeah, that

38:45

existed. L-O-L. She

38:47

went to smell shows, obviously

38:49

the smell still goes on but I think at

38:51

the tail end of the sort of that big

38:53

first smell boom into sort

38:56

of like the dying days of mainstream alternative

38:58

culture that existed. But

39:00

she pointed to that

39:02

scene as being the last real

39:05

scene that existed. Everyone,

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and I would get the kids on the podcast but they

41:04

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41:07

got a pam. Oh my god that gets messy. I

41:12

mean I think so

41:15

much about enjoying culture is contextual

41:17

right? It's who you're with, how

41:19

old you were, where you were, how you found

41:21

it. You

41:24

know for example I love

41:27

minor threat and I found them kind of

41:29

on my own and just listened

41:31

to them kind of in the solitary. I imagine what

41:33

that world was like. I've never been to see them

41:35

play. I've never been to a show that they played.

41:38

I have a friend who was older than me who worked as

41:41

a bouncer at a club where minor threat

41:43

would play and he's like fucking hate minor

41:45

threat. Those guys, those shows were awful. Those

41:47

guys were awful. I worked

41:50

with my boss at the video store. I

41:52

was playing Black Sabbath and

41:54

he's like oh man The guys who

41:56

were fans of Black Sabbath They were to call me

41:58

a faggot every day and. I got

42:00

fucking hate that ban hate their fans and

42:03

I'm watching it and I'm like listen to

42:05

Black Sabbath in my own little void and

42:07

you create your own narrative about that stuff

42:09

and I think of have this generationally where

42:11

you know either you're there for it, you

42:13

can idea about every worker for it and

42:15

you conceptualize it yourself. So if you know

42:17

the one around for. Whatever

42:19

she thinks that seat has. You

42:22

might imagine that it was this kind of

42:24

magical thing. And.

42:28

Yeah, that's fine. He should. He should feel that way

42:30

to enjoy it like that since. Someone's.

42:32

Blue difference in ruin your reality of

42:34

enjoying this music or having idea what

42:36

that seen as like or whenever. I

42:38

guess this isn't very well thought out

42:41

theory, but nobody is. It is. It

42:43

is interesting because. You.

42:45

Realize that the people they grew

42:48

up. Next to something. Have

42:51

a different relationship to it than the

42:53

people that encounters hosted getting big like

42:55

with oh the Nineties Revival that happen

42:57

and people were. Be. Like

42:59

news. Awesome. Skyn. The

43:02

gin blossoms or something and diced tomatoes

43:04

are fucking aren't know either. Not a

43:06

sudden, all right I can in Alexandria.

43:08

No knock out orders at Seattle of

43:11

yeah but I was like either. Okay,

43:13

whatever. Was. Wasn't as

43:15

I'm sorry. Okay besides that Us Bank I was.

43:17

You know as a person who lived through it

43:20

on kind of like a fucking and while you

43:22

know the other again and as using them as

43:24

an example like soured corn like wanna live her

43:26

life, zebra like. To

43:28

visit to the heart. We're celebrating Limp

43:31

Bizkit now and it's like that was

43:33

not it. Yeah are also better sit

43:35

at that time even in my local

43:38

park or seen in Connecticut. You'll.

43:40

Find people like you like release the

43:42

this way you know? But. Again,

43:45

as it's enough time time

43:47

reconceptualize as things and than

43:49

people have ideas about fantasies

43:51

about. That. world and what

43:53

was like and that everybody in a scene

43:56

was were all friends at everybody you know

43:58

it's just I've

44:00

certainly done it. I mean I've fantasized about

44:03

I mean I certainly have done it with like the youth crew

44:05

hardcore scene or or You

44:07

know like minor threat or even? Like

44:10

like Roxy music and Bowie and I'm like T-Rex.

44:12

I'm like they're all hanging out and

44:17

You know I'm sure that that's not true Maybe

44:21

back then if they were in the 70s when they

44:23

were all like you see photos of them all together

44:25

No, I mean I think about like like like a

44:27

gee and David Like they're my

44:29

friends. He keep popping David Bowie They

44:32

are my friends Like

44:35

hanging out and you're just like this these are the two

44:37

coolest guys And I'm sure they were nightmares you know what

44:39

I mean if someone was around them They're just on coke

44:41

all the time. I'm sure they were not pleasant But

44:44

I'm like you couldn't look cooler the music

44:46

couldn't be cooler. It's cool But

44:49

I have no context for it beyond just looking at photos

44:51

and listening to records It's

44:55

interesting though because I think That

44:57

meet me in the bathroom scene might

44:59

be that last Geographical

45:02

scene that people fetishize like that like

45:05

obviously smell kind of happened post

45:07

that and Toronto kind of has a moment

45:09

in Hip-hop now, but in terms

45:11

of like rock music because

45:13

that was the end of or

45:16

maybe the the explosion of indie

45:20

culture indie media in

45:22

terms of mainstream media Well,

45:25

it's also it's a bit. I mean I

45:27

lived there. I lived through that in

45:30

New York and there was a lot of

45:32

cool bands and it was cool But these

45:34

are this is pulling together some disparate scenes that really

45:36

have nothing to do with each other you or you're

45:38

the guy that links them All I find maybe

45:41

not the strokes as much. No, I actually know

45:43

I I love the strokes I love that first

45:45

strokes record a lot a lot a lot, but

45:47

I've never seen them on your connection to Julian

45:50

comes through me When

45:52

you tried to make out with me, oh really?

45:54

Yeah, I told you the story. I

45:56

don't think so I was when the first time the game

45:58

to Toronto when they're blowing up.

46:00

Yeah. Craziest show I've ever

46:03

seen at this venue, where the Rolling Stones did

46:05

play this show. Oh, I think I do remember

46:07

this. And he tried to make it with me

46:09

backstage, so there's your connection. There's my

46:11

connection. There you go. So you are the link.

46:14

Kevin Bacon. Yeah, you're the link. Kevin Bacon of Indie

46:16

Sleeves. I don't know what the fuck it is. I

46:19

don't know what they called it. But like, you

46:21

know, like the DFA stuff was completely separate

46:24

from all this other, from like the yayayayas.

46:27

You're the link there, right? Between

46:29

Nick and James. Nick. Well,

46:32

we played, Panthers played with the yayayas many times. And

46:35

there was a lot of, but also there was so many, TV on

46:37

the radio for sure. We toured with, played

46:39

with, loved those guys. And

46:42

there's, you know, there's lots of great bands that like the Liars

46:44

didn't quite make the cut there, but they were, they

46:46

were one of the coolest live bands from that, that

46:49

scene at the time. I don't know. I

46:53

mean, I haven't seen the documentary. I can't

46:55

bring myself to do it. You still haven't watched it. No,

46:58

I read the book. Yeah. I

47:01

skipped the chapters about, what's

47:03

that man? Kings of Leon. How

47:06

is he in it? Oh, I guess you're amazed by the

47:08

name. I have no idea. I didn't, I didn't really understand

47:11

what didn't really know anybody. And I

47:13

knew a couple of the guys who were in

47:15

Seisha and that

47:17

band Hot Cross. And

47:20

they were like, we should play music together. And

47:23

so I didn't want to sing in a band

47:25

at that point. It

47:27

was, you know, post

47:29

orchid or maybe concurrent

47:32

with orchid. So I played guitar and

47:34

the drummer was this guy, Greg Drudy, who used to

47:36

play, he had a

47:38

label called Level Plan, which put out a lot of, you

47:41

know, stuff from that genre, kind of

47:43

screamy, hardcore stuff. And

47:46

the name of the band was called She's Hit. It

47:48

was named after a birthday party song. And I was

47:50

like, you know, pretty much obsessing with the birthday party

47:52

at that point in my life. As

47:55

one does, the host hardcore phase. Yes.

47:58

And then Greg's a little bit of a fan. I'm

48:00

like, oh, you like, is like, you like the birthday party and like

48:02

Joy Division and stuff? I was like, yeah, fuck it, I love that

48:04

stuff. And he's like, you should see my

48:06

other band were playing at the Mercury Lounge. Yeah.

48:09

And I was like, oh, okay. And I went and it

48:11

was Interpol. Yeah. There was nobody there,

48:14

but they were fully formed. That,

48:16

I got the demo CD that night. That's basically

48:18

the first record. A

48:21

little worse recorded, but I'd prefer it

48:23

in some ways. And I was just like, oh

48:25

man, I was like, Greg, this band, I feel like this band could be

48:27

popular. I mean, they were

48:30

still like on the suits and everything. Then I got

48:32

fired, so. Yeah. Didn't

48:34

work out for poor old Greg Drudy. It's like

48:36

Kiss when you hear about Kiss and you kind

48:38

of like, because you know, you can go on

48:40

websites and find out every show Kiss ever played.

48:42

Yeah, like Kenny's Castaways and stuff. Yeah, when they

48:44

put on this makeup for the first time and that,

48:46

and it feels like

48:48

these bands are weirdly fully formed.

48:51

And it's- Yeah. They can,

48:53

like out of the box feels like

48:56

a completed. There's

48:58

a Talking Heads DVD. If

49:01

anybody, I don't know, you could probably find it somewhere else,

49:03

but it's like a documentary about Talking Heads, but it had

49:05

all this extra stuff on it. They had their first show

49:07

ever. And they are

49:09

the Talking Heads. Yeah. They're like, oh,

49:11

these guys are like out of the box, great.

49:15

I think that's rare, but it does happen. Yeah, like

49:17

I was listening to Integrity and I did

49:19

an interview with Aaron recently. And

49:22

almost like not on the first seven

49:25

inch and maybe not on those demos,

49:27

but like really early on, they click.

49:30

And it's just like certain bands find

49:32

that thing real

49:34

early on. But then there's other bands that search for it

49:37

for a very long time and change over

49:39

time. Like the Beastie Boys, I guess it was a short

49:41

period of time. When they were a

49:43

hardcore band first. Yeah, but then they found kind of, and

49:45

even from where they were in

49:47

the beginning to where they kind of developed

49:49

as a group. Yeah, for sure. It

49:52

is a totally kind of different sound.

49:56

Yeah, I mean, the new project of doing Jason

49:58

Green and the Jerk, we just... played our first

50:00

live show at this

50:03

place called Baby's All Right in Brooklyn. And

50:07

it was a 10-piece band. We had

50:10

horns, percussion, and the

50:12

music had been around for a minute. So

50:16

the songs were kind of there. But

50:19

yeah, we were playing like, we had to... It

50:22

was the weirdest first show I've ever played. It

50:24

had to be kind of fully formed from the

50:26

get... Like we weren't opening up for somebody. We

50:28

were headlining a show at Baby's All Right for

50:31

our first show. So do you

50:33

have a full record of material? Or

50:36

were you doing covers? No, we had

50:38

a... We have very

50:40

close to a full record. So

50:42

is this going to be a real band now? Yeah,

50:44

to whatever degree it's possible. I mean, we've got some

50:47

shows coming up that we're going to do. And

50:51

we're going to do a couple more... Two more singles on

50:53

DFA and then the full length. So

50:56

is it... Like

50:58

at this point, what is

51:00

the driving factor in making

51:03

stuff for you? Like what is like... Is

51:05

it just to produce something or is it

51:08

to express yourself or is it like live

51:10

performance? Because I don't know, I think this

51:12

is someone who's struggling with like, what

51:15

would creativity look like if it wasn't my

51:18

job at this point? I

51:21

collaborate with other people and I kind of experience

51:23

it that way. But

51:26

I wonder... I

51:29

wonder what my relationship would be like

51:31

if it wasn't imposed upon me. Yeah,

51:34

that's a tough question. I think also

51:36

if you... I

51:39

mean, we've both been in touring

51:42

punk bands for a huge portion of

51:44

our lives. I mean, I think work

51:46

has started touring when I was 19, 18. I'm

51:49

45. So

51:52

it does seem to a

51:54

degree that this

51:57

is just... This is how it is for me.

51:59

This is what... life is like and I so

52:01

I constantly trying to that's why

52:03

I'd like to do different projects too because I do find

52:05

it stimulating to work on not on just one thing I

52:09

don't know man that's it that's it that's a question I

52:11

have to ask my therapist probably are you at a Rawlin

52:13

stage where you're like I don't want to yell in a

52:15

hardcore band anymore no I like yelling in hardcore but I

52:18

mean I love hardcore I love heavy I guess your work

52:20

is back together I'm saying no I don't I mean but

52:22

I did have I you know I did want to do

52:24

my musical things

52:32

are myriad so I wanted to and a

52:36

big part of my social circle or people

52:38

who do you know weird

52:41

kind of funky dance

52:43

music punky stuff and

52:45

I wanted to express that part of myself and

52:48

I like you know I like messing around with

52:51

all synthesizers and drum machines and a lot of

52:53

stuff just doesn't fit into a hardcore

52:55

world as much I don't know I

52:57

mean it does yeah it does but I mean it like it's a

52:59

different kind of like you

53:01

know I don't want to be in the

53:04

locust or whatever not no shade to the

53:06

locust they're great no I don't know I didn't mean

53:08

that when I last there but I'm like I'm just

53:10

picturing of how you could do your MS Paint style

53:12

oh yeah yeah modern hardcore band yeah I think I

53:14

think I would have to be about I'd have to

53:17

be handsome and 20 probably the best

53:19

way to do that and I'm neither

53:21

of those things I'm glad I grew up in

53:23

the era where bands like poison idea inspire inspire

53:26

me because I think now I would be

53:28

like I just don't got there is a

53:30

I still have a thing when I see

53:32

an ugly band and they're good

53:34

I'm like nice yeah I'm

53:37

like now I know you're good I root

53:39

for fat dudes in band oh thanks anytime

53:41

there's a fat person in the band I'm

53:43

like yes yes do it of course of

53:45

course you got to support our people I

53:48

remember seeing an interview with Phil Collins and he's

53:51

like I'd never make it now in the air

53:53

yeah I mean if you look at everyone in

53:55

Genesis and you're like huh giant

54:00

the other day. Oh god. My kids are

54:03

giant. Like these guys are huge.

54:06

Yeah I know there's... Yeah

54:08

yeah. I mean I

54:10

one of my favorite new bands is

54:12

Blood Incantation. They're like a

54:15

death metal band from Texas and they're awesome. They

54:17

also and he does the main guy does like

54:19

ambient synth stuff as a side project like new

54:21

age synth stuff and he

54:23

has an amazing look. Long hair bald on

54:25

top, glasses and

54:28

as soon as I looked at him I'm like this guy

54:30

makes good music. Like you could just he

54:32

gave off this feeling. I'm like this

54:34

guy knows what he's doing you know and he did

54:36

feel like from another era almost and

54:39

yeah yeah now it's now hardcore is

54:42

like you gotta be fucking pumping weights

54:44

dude. Yeah. Everyone's jacked. Yep everyone's got

54:46

uh well it's an instagram kind of

54:49

moment. Yeah. Raising

54:51

my my kids in this

54:54

time like not the younger

54:56

ones but certainly with the older ones just

54:59

how there's this sort of new thing of

55:01

us just being into an aesthetic. So you

55:03

could be a goth kid

55:07

but have no relationship to goth culture

55:09

in terms of the music or in

55:11

terms of any

55:13

of the sort of history of this thing

55:15

other than this aesthetic. And then there's some

55:18

sub aesthetics within that world or um

55:21

I don't actually I gotta be careful how much

55:24

I tell you about my older kid because he

55:26

would not like it if I was talking about

55:28

it. Right sure. They're very into skin care and

55:30

very into to work it

55:32

out and just being more and they're not even necessarily

55:34

posting pictures on instagram or anything like that but I

55:36

just feel like those

55:39

pressures that we felt as kids that

55:41

people are like oh MTV bad distortion

55:43

of body image those things are hyper

55:45

accelerated now. Yeah no I

55:47

think that that's that's very true. I

55:49

remember it seemed there was always like

55:51

jacked guys in hardcore. Fury

55:53

of Five. Stepman. Yep.

55:55

But I mean that you know

55:59

now I I felt like in the past five

56:02

or so years, every

56:05

band is fucking giant.

56:07

It's like giant muscle dudes.

56:11

Yeah, there's a lot more, a

56:14

lot more awareness, I guess, also about

56:16

working out and just, we've got on

56:18

our phones, like an Apple step counter.

56:21

We're all just constantly bombarded

56:24

with quote unquote health,

56:26

depending on what your definition of this or some

56:28

of this. I

56:30

can only imagine that it's gonna have an impact and

56:32

seep into hardcore, but hardcore felt

56:34

always such like an anti-aesthetic. Especially,

56:38

I think the time we grew up in hardcore

56:40

was part of this weird glitch

56:42

in the matrix where you look at the

56:44

70s and we talked about Bowie and Iggy

56:47

and these aesthetic kind of

56:49

gods that were kind of the forefront of

56:52

proto-punk type of thing. Even

56:54

that first wave of punk where everyone's kind of very

56:56

much dressed up, but we were, by the

56:58

time the 90s rolled around, could show up

57:00

in shows and whatever the fuck you wanted. No, it's

57:02

very true. Yeah, it's very true. And

57:05

it was definitely, I know in Connecticut, it

57:07

was like there was

57:09

a ska band that would play on the show and

57:11

then it'd be hardcore band and then it'd be a

57:13

weird street punk band. There was a

57:15

lot of that stuff. And it was kind of like, especially

57:18

if you come from a smaller scene or, everyone

57:22

come on in, we want, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

57:24

I mean, I dressed like a complete

57:26

lunatic in the Lego shows, I'm sure. Youth

57:30

Crew though was very aesthetic. And

57:33

they're all jacked as well. They're even more so

57:35

now. Yeah, there

57:37

was a very much, even like

57:39

Hardline, I remember like Hardline having

57:41

strong man competitions and Hardline

57:44

taking protein powder, vegan protein powder.

57:47

So much of that, the culture

57:50

of Straight Edge 2 was health.

57:54

Your body is important, your body is a temple, that

57:56

kind of stuff. Yeah. I

58:00

was more than McDonald's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

58:02

only ate french fry. Hell yeah. I'm a

58:04

french fry vegan. Puppetship vegan. Yeah. It

58:07

was a, it was a whole lot harder to

58:09

be vegan back then. No, for sure. I mean, I remember

58:11

there was Taco Bell. You

58:13

could get bean burritos. And then the only

58:16

place that I had a veggie burger was Chili's, the

58:18

bean burger. It was like the only place that I

58:20

could, you could get veggie burgers. They weren't the grocery

58:22

stores or anything like that. I don't, like, this is

58:24

a controversial topic in

58:27

punk and hardcore these days, but

58:29

the idea of like, certainly Taco

58:31

Bell's doing a lot of hardcore commercials these

58:34

days and references to hardcore and

58:36

punk. I feel like that is a natural

58:38

marriage in a way. No, I mean, it

58:40

was definitely, Taco Bell was a huge part

58:42

of hardcore culture for me growing up. It's

58:44

definitely a huge, still, I think it's still,

58:46

when I'm on the road and I can't afford Chipotle,

58:49

and I get down to the Taco Bell days of

58:51

Per diem, I'm grateful that

58:53

they have those bean burritos. I feel like I brought

58:55

it up on the podcast before, but Panthers were sponsored

58:57

by Taco Bell Fox. Yeah,

59:00

we ate a lot of Taco Bell. I meant to

59:02

say we should bring Jeff on today too. Oh,

59:05

yeah. Tell him to come in on

59:07

the show. Yeah, you should have Jeff on. I know,

59:09

we should, I wanna have him on because, and then

59:11

we can do a splits with the two of you

59:13

just roasting each other. Let

59:16

me be sure he's got a lot to say. Do you feel at

59:18

peace with Panthers now? Because I feel like, no, I'm

59:21

sorry. Do you feel at peace with Orca

59:23

now in a way, a different way because I

59:26

feel like I've followed the journey that's

59:29

come to this reunion just through our conversation in

59:31

the last few years. And

59:33

I think in the beginning, there

59:35

was a lot of trepidation. Yeah.

59:38

And maybe even as, I guess it

59:40

was during the pandemic, I think we first started talking

59:42

about that stuff too, but you did feel like there

59:45

was sort of a, I don't know, I just felt

59:47

like you were like a little uneasy with it. Yeah,

59:49

I still am, to be honest with you. I mean, I've, yeah,

59:54

I'm still uneasy about it. And

59:58

I haven't totally come to terms with it. But

1:00:00

there was I mean you were big I've talked about

1:00:02

this in a couple of podcasts that I've done recently

1:00:04

But people are asking why what was the change of

1:00:06

mind? But one of the things was a conversation you

1:00:09

and I had When you

1:00:11

said to me Do you still like

1:00:13

those guys and I said yeah, and then you said do you

1:00:16

like the songs and I said yeah Then you said what's the problem?

1:00:18

I was like, hmm. That's

1:00:20

a good point And then our

1:00:23

bass player Brad Wallace, he said, you know,

1:00:25

he was he was nervous about Reuniting

1:00:27

too. He's like, but I don't think on my deathbed. I'm gonna say

1:00:30

I'm glad I didn't reunite I was like,

1:00:32

that's also a good point. Yeah, there's stuff that I'm

1:00:34

excited about with it. There's stuff that I'm scared about

1:00:36

and It's

1:00:40

gonna be it's gonna be strange for

1:00:43

sure and I'm asking for trouble is the

1:00:45

other part of the story That's the thing. I'm looking forward

1:00:47

to the least How

1:00:49

you're asking for trouble? internet

1:00:52

abuse You think I

1:00:54

mean I get it already to some

1:00:56

degree. Yeah It's gonna get it's gonna get

1:01:00

Yeah, and it might not always be

1:01:02

abused but it's gonna be like a lot of you know,

1:01:04

so do you shit and like memes I don't

1:01:06

understand. Yeah stuff like that And

1:01:09

you know, I know how it is with the

1:01:13

No matter what you do no matter how hard

1:01:15

you try people are gonna be unhappy with The

1:01:19

venue you choose or how much the tickets are

1:01:21

why aren't you playing in, you know in? Albuquerque,

1:01:24

you know all the comments are why aren't you coming

1:01:26

here? Why aren't you coming here? Why are you coming?

1:01:30

And so that you you know that there's

1:01:32

there's gonna be people you can't make everybody

1:01:34

happy. So the idea is basically to Do

1:01:37

the best we can for ourselves to

1:01:40

feel comfortable playing and like pick venues

1:01:42

that you know Do all-ages

1:01:44

shows make sure there's no barricades,

1:01:46

you know Try

1:01:48

to do our best to keep tickets out

1:01:51

of the hands of second-market Sellers

1:01:53

and stuff like that. And then if you

1:01:55

know if it feels It

1:01:58

can't be super authentic to

1:02:00

what work it was, because we never did shows like this

1:02:02

before. Done shows like this before. But

1:02:07

we want to try to make it feel as good as

1:02:09

possible and feel

1:02:11

as true to kind of the spirit of the band as

1:02:13

possible. Well, like

1:02:15

we were talking about earlier, this is the

1:02:20

the way it affects art and

1:02:22

the way it affects the way you do things is the

1:02:24

fact that you do

1:02:27

hear from everyone that's like, why aren't you doing this?

1:02:29

Why aren't you doing that? In a way that filmmakers

1:02:33

didn't have to hear it. If you made

1:02:35

the net and people thought there was

1:02:37

too much typing, just don't read the paper. Probably

1:02:40

the studio would tell you that it wasn't working out too much. But

1:02:43

now it's beamed into

1:02:45

you. It's like it's going to affect you in the same

1:02:48

way it's going to make you want to work out if

1:02:50

you're seeing every other kid work out and everyone other kid

1:02:52

talking about it. Well, also, I have

1:02:54

my own, we have an Orchid Instagram page.

1:02:58

And then I have a page that's for me, but I use

1:03:00

it to promote stuff I'm working on. It's

1:03:02

not like a fully personal page or anything. So

1:03:04

it's open to the public. So

1:03:08

people work their way from the Orchid page

1:03:10

over to my page, in the DMs. How

1:03:13

come this? Why aren't that? I'm just

1:03:17

kind of, I think

1:03:19

the only DM I responded to was a kid who

1:03:21

was doing a fanzine about Hampshire College Hardcore who was

1:03:23

going to Hampshire and I was like, yes, I will

1:03:25

do an interview with you. And

1:03:28

I think that's otherwise, I haven't

1:03:30

answered anything. Yeah, because

1:03:34

people feel a

1:03:36

sense of ownership over things, especially things

1:03:38

you didn't necessarily experience. Yeah,

1:03:41

and there's an entitlement. I think people feel an

1:03:43

entitlement to a

1:03:45

lot of things that they

1:03:48

don't necessarily, that's maybe

1:03:50

misguided. And

1:03:54

also, it's, you know, I understand something's important

1:03:56

to you. You

1:03:58

don't want to see it fucked up either. as a fan. And

1:04:02

so I could see, I mean, if I

1:04:04

was a fan of Orchid, and then this came

1:04:06

up, I'd be like, what the fuck? Maybe,

1:04:08

you know, who knows? But

1:04:11

I can understand people being trepidatious about

1:04:13

it or cynical about it. You

1:04:16

know, it's just the nature of the thing. So I think

1:04:18

I just have to focus on it being

1:04:21

fun for me and good and fun to

1:04:23

spend time with guys and

1:04:26

play some shows. And

1:04:28

I think I feel I, at times

1:04:30

in my life, have definitely been judgmental

1:04:34

of things that I have no right to be

1:04:36

in terms of other people's art. Of

1:04:38

course. Looking at Ian McComis

1:04:40

and like, why isn't he

1:04:42

doing Minus Threat? Why is this Fugazi

1:04:45

record? Like, I don't like this thing.

1:04:47

Like, it's not my place to say,

1:04:49

it's not my place to say that the uniform

1:04:52

choice next record's like

1:04:55

a departure record or a cello record. It's what

1:04:57

they were doing. It's what they wanted to do.

1:04:59

No, but you have, you become really

1:05:01

attached to artists and music is a

1:05:03

big one where things

1:05:06

can feel very personal. You

1:05:09

can hear a certain song at a certain point in

1:05:11

your life or breakups happening or someone's

1:05:13

passed away and you get really tied to

1:05:16

it. You know, you get really attached to

1:05:18

it. And so

1:05:20

when that artist does something that

1:05:24

doesn't fit into that picture of them, that

1:05:26

can be upsetting. And, you know,

1:05:29

I see it with

1:05:31

like doing the LCD stuff or traveling

1:05:33

around with those guys. I mean, people

1:05:35

really feel ownership over that band. And

1:05:38

so whenever they do anything, people

1:05:40

are like on top of

1:05:42

it, you know? And I

1:05:46

used to hear James complain about certain things and

1:05:48

I was like, I'm like, come on. And now

1:05:50

I'm like, oh, okay, I understand. I mean, also

1:05:52

the fact, you know, he's got that, he has

1:05:54

the wine bar in Brooklyn and

1:05:56

I just opened up this bar in Toronto.

1:05:59

And Now, Through the through the

1:06:01

and Instagram pipeline. people now that I'm

1:06:03

there and I worked there like fairly

1:06:06

regularly am at the bar where people

1:06:08

come. Just. To punish

1:06:10

me about working at the bar, soccer. And

1:06:14

I texted as a like as like I can

1:06:16

see why you don't work the floor it for

1:06:18

me like the code never ever own idea that

1:06:21

we obviously he's got much worse than me like

1:06:23

he is that you know their their seatbelts but.

1:06:26

The. Idea that people feel.

1:06:29

Feel a connection to you with that they don't?

1:06:31

You know? you don't know them. You've had that.

1:06:34

Know people get up, people get. Very.

1:06:37

Passionate about certain things. And yeah, and then

1:06:39

you'd you'd I feel a responsibility that. Makes.

1:06:43

That sure that those interactions go okay.

1:06:45

They people walk away feeling satisfied that

1:06:47

it's hard to know, it's hard as

1:06:49

he gets. I

1:06:52

think as I never went away.

1:06:54

It's also different. I think the

1:06:56

fact that people have a relationship

1:06:59

with or to the developed independent

1:07:01

from you as a person. Yeah,

1:07:03

end end your maybe. Followed it

1:07:05

through other projects for like. You.

1:07:08

Were tendered or he was free

1:07:10

to Canada valve organically in people's

1:07:12

imaginations on a certain level. And

1:07:14

that's the. By never

1:07:16

gone away people's army get fan. Old

1:07:19

and ugly and people saw me

1:07:21

get over stupidly embarrassing. A different

1:07:24

stages and people really in awards

1:07:26

had all sorts of the climb

1:07:28

and hustle. I mean I I.

1:07:30

I think that there are a

1:07:33

lot of people who. You

1:07:35

know, When you

1:07:37

can easily go on. has been with the went look like I mean

1:07:39

it that. And I'm a lot older than

1:07:41

today's is that it's a different thing. My main

1:07:43

one of i guess my main terminated always then.

1:07:46

Am I gonna be killing their what's

1:07:48

appealing about the band? The Mystery right?

1:07:52

People's. Imagination of what this thing is

1:07:54

or was there. could be just like

1:07:56

watching youtube clips or whatever. And.

1:07:59

That's a. Though I want to try to

1:08:01

maintain at some capacity. Will

1:08:04

get ideas about how to do it but. Yeah.

1:08:07

That's a that's a big one for me. Because

1:08:09

there is something. Like. I said with

1:08:11

a sparks things and as unless you know. The.

1:08:14

That area. And. You create

1:08:16

your own narratives and and you give

1:08:18

these people personalities. And you give these

1:08:20

people motivations that they may or may

1:08:22

not have. And it. Works for

1:08:24

you and then if some as like no, no,

1:08:26

no, no focus on it's way Lyrics to Son.

1:08:29

Was was like oh you know on my mother

1:08:31

died and in a song or spoke to me

1:08:33

because I can tell the lyrics about some doesn't

1:08:35

mean it's as have known as action are not

1:08:37

that it's about I wasn't a car accident and

1:08:40

buttocks and and years like Watts and now the

1:08:42

things my yes yep com. So.

1:08:45

I think I think having letting.

1:08:48

Their. Be some mystery to it.

1:08:51

Is important I guess. but. As

1:08:54

it may have sparks, they were there from

1:08:56

an era where you are still afford it.

1:09:00

To have that mystery. Relationship

1:09:02

with Orchid a developed independent from

1:09:04

you as a person gas attack

1:09:06

and and your may followed it

1:09:09

through other projects for like. You.

1:09:12

Were kind of. or he was free

1:09:14

to kind of develop organically in people's

1:09:16

imaginations on a certain level. And that's

1:09:18

the. By never gone

1:09:20

away people's army get fan. Old

1:09:23

and ugly and people saw me

1:09:25

get over stupidly embarrassing. A different

1:09:27

stages and people really in awards

1:09:29

had all sorts of the climb

1:09:32

and hustle. I mean I I.

1:09:34

I think that there are a

1:09:36

lot of people who. You

1:09:38

know, When you

1:09:40

can easily go on has been with the way I look like. I mean

1:09:42

it that. In i'm a lot older, it's

1:09:44

a dataset. It's a different thing the my main

1:09:47

one of i guess my mantra rated always then.

1:09:50

Am I going to be killing their

1:09:52

what's appealing about the band? The Mystery

1:09:54

right? People's. Imagination

1:09:56

of what this thing is or was there

1:09:58

could be to fuck watching you. The clips

1:10:00

or whatever. And.

1:10:03

That's something I don't. I want to try

1:10:05

to maintain that some capacity. Will

1:10:07

get ideas about how to do it but. Yeah.

1:10:11

That's a that's a big one for me. Because

1:10:13

there is something. Like. I said with

1:10:15

the sparks things and as unless you know. The.

1:10:17

That area. And. You create

1:10:19

your own narratives and and you give these

1:10:21

people personalities and you give his people motivations

1:10:24

that they may or may not have. And

1:10:27

it. Works. For you and then if

1:10:29

some as like no no no no super some

1:10:31

explains lyrics to some. As was

1:10:33

at all lol on my mother died and in

1:10:35

the song was spoke to me because i could

1:10:37

hardly lyrics about some does way that as have

1:10:40

known as such an armada that's about i a

1:10:42

a car accident and linux and and years like

1:10:44

wants and now the things were atheists yep. So.

1:10:48

I think I think having letting.

1:10:51

Their be some mystery to it.

1:10:55

Is important I guess. but. As

1:10:57

you breathe free of sparks. they were there

1:10:59

from an era where you are still afforded.

1:11:03

To have that mystery. And.

1:11:05

I would love to be er physician or

1:11:08

successful enough where you could afford not to

1:11:10

work for floor. Not your bar,

1:11:12

our to go on instagram and has to

1:11:14

be like yo yo club doing here. Right

1:11:17

now. But. Maybe that's

1:11:19

also why this era is people are

1:11:21

more. Into authenticity are perceived

1:11:24

authenticity, At least because there is

1:11:26

that sense that. You.

1:11:28

Never go away Now What? You're always going to

1:11:31

be present with people and so they're going to

1:11:33

see. You know? All. The time and

1:11:35

and. In your real life and. See.

1:11:38

If a yeah I would I would Love. Holy

1:11:40

shit. And. My number would take

1:11:42

to walk away isn't that high if people

1:11:44

are sick of the I Just six again

1:11:46

a double bucks a month and out here

1:11:48

forever now. has a patriotic get me to

1:11:51

leave here since I haven't exactly been openly.

1:11:55

admitted is the worst ideally

1:11:57

athletics excess innocent people like

1:12:00

me so much they pay me money to not

1:12:03

go outside. There's a lot of people I would contribute to

1:12:05

a Patreon to leave. I would there I can think of

1:12:07

a few. Maybe that'll be the new

1:12:09

thing. It's not a bad idea.

1:12:11

Like the democratization of media's gun. Maybe

1:12:13

we need a name for this specific

1:12:15

Patreon. It's gonna have its own company. Yeah

1:12:19

like the Blacklist. No that

1:12:21

could be good. The

1:12:23

I'm sure that magazine we could probably get the name off

1:12:25

that magazine real cheap now. I

1:12:27

bet. That's okay. I think

1:12:30

it is. I think it's the money maker. I think

1:12:32

it's the money maker. I think it

1:12:34

might be better

1:12:36

than trying to get people to pay for me to do two things

1:12:38

for them. It's gonna be not too deep for us.

1:12:41

You'd be threatened. You'd be like I'm gonna come to

1:12:43

your house. Yeah. And

1:12:45

I'm just gonna talk to you. I'm just gonna come and

1:12:48

punish you at your doorstep. And

1:12:51

clear this up. That's

1:12:54

what I feel like anytime someone meets me I feel like at

1:12:56

the end of it they come

1:12:58

away like

1:13:01

a little more demystified with the whole celebrity

1:13:03

thing because they're like wow that's it.

1:13:09

Yeah it's a weird. Those

1:13:11

are weird interactions that I you know.

1:13:16

I don't think anybody can like live up to the

1:13:19

expectation of what the person you know

1:13:22

what I mean. I don't know. I think

1:13:24

sometimes people are like oh well we'll be end up being friends or

1:13:27

I'll get this from them or that you know. It's

1:13:29

hard. You can't. People have their own

1:13:31

ideas about all kinds of stuff that you can't control. But

1:13:35

yeah. Yeah I

1:13:37

think I'm probably demystified a few

1:13:40

people here. But

1:13:44

that's what I feel like the punk

1:13:46

thing is also and that's it

1:13:49

is a demystification. Well that was all I

1:13:51

mean we you know we played on the floor and we

1:13:53

you know I sold the merch. Yeah. You

1:13:56

know there was never this debate. There was never this. No.

1:14:00

and we were very much about like

1:14:02

we're all the same even though whatever and

1:14:05

yeah yeah but that's

1:14:07

you know and that hasn't

1:14:09

changed like you're still entertaining people to come to

1:14:11

talk to you about your band it's not like

1:14:13

you've put up no that wall and I think

1:14:15

that's the biggest thing more than more

1:14:18

than any other factor of a punk

1:14:20

in hardcore is the fact that like

1:14:22

you never put up that wall yeah

1:14:24

it's a you're still a approachable person

1:14:27

you're like you're trying to you're

1:14:31

positing that we're all operating on the same level we're all

1:14:33

people we should all be able to talk to each other

1:14:35

and you know it's all bullshit and edifice

1:14:38

there's like we're all just insecure people it's

1:14:40

almost found a way to like turn

1:14:43

it into something and yeah but

1:14:46

it's it everyone's got those

1:14:48

information and the bad reviews effect

1:14:51

the most famous people as in months is in

1:14:53

fact say you know kid just

1:14:56

looking at you know the review of their first

1:14:58

project of course and I mean I think I

1:15:00

don't know if you have this but I have

1:15:02

this gift for if

1:15:04

even if the review is almost

1:15:06

entirely good if it feels like there's one shady

1:15:08

line in it I'm like and

1:15:10

that's all I can say yeah of course of

1:15:13

course there are reviews and lines

1:15:16

that I've like tempted I've been

1:15:18

tempted to write into lyrics for

1:15:20

years yeah I should address that

1:15:22

critique in a song why

1:15:25

would you do that I

1:15:29

do like the idea of having a there my

1:15:31

friend is a bar in Brooklyn

1:15:33

called Doris it's a great bar in

1:15:35

Bed-Stuy and he made coasters

1:15:37

that had their work like lines

1:15:40

from their worst Yelp reviews on it it's like

1:15:42

too loud too crowded so it's really

1:15:44

funny I do like that kind

1:15:46

of been like leaning into some of that stuff a

1:15:48

little bit but it's hard to do it without seeming

1:15:50

you know petty obviously it is and it's it's hard

1:15:53

to like it was hard to just be in a

1:15:56

band and not be petty I remember reading

1:15:58

in a sonic Sonic

1:16:00

life fanzine as we're talking about before we

1:16:02

went on air the Sonic you fancy mm-hmm

1:16:04

this interview with pavement And

1:16:06

they were talking about how someone wanted tickets And

1:16:09

it was so it was super mean to them in high school and

1:16:12

just being so stoked to like deny them

1:16:14

getting them tickets Yeah, yeah on this again.

1:16:16

They're sort of and I remember reading

1:16:18

as a kid being like oh my god one

1:16:20

day. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh one day. I'll

1:16:22

be able to do this and not be petty

1:16:24

when this whole thing was built on I

1:16:27

know I know Yeah, that

1:16:30

is funny. I mean I've definitely certainly

1:16:32

in fantasies like that But

1:16:35

of course the people who were

1:16:37

mean to me in high school have zero They're

1:16:43

not gonna be interested now the word then

1:16:46

Unless you're Nirvana. They're not really gonna come down. I'll have

1:16:48

to like go to reunion be like Guess

1:16:51

what guys bring my records Make

1:16:54

them watch a YouTube clips I Know

1:16:58

people like go to reunions. I know it's such a part

1:17:00

of pop culture. Yeah, I couldn't imagine

1:17:02

a First thing I want to

1:17:04

go to I went to one I went to one I went to

1:17:06

my five-year because I was

1:17:09

home and my two buddies Jeff

1:17:11

Garlach and Eric, McManus

1:17:14

who I played music with all I ask They

1:17:17

were gonna go and I was like so I

1:17:19

just went on a whim and I was at worst

1:17:21

worst Worst

1:17:26

It's a it is a

1:17:28

trope though. It's once you get successful, then you go back to

1:17:30

your high school reunion But now I'm like we're at her like

1:17:35

35th high school Now

1:17:39

it's really sad now they can catch

1:17:41

me up on yeah, everyone's just like

1:17:43

yeah dying and The

1:17:46

romantic part of this Don't

1:17:48

get them wet is long since past. Yeah, no

1:17:51

one cares. No, it's just regret. Yeah And

1:17:53

one cares only this is where my life's at.

1:17:56

Yeah But

1:18:00

you're way better at adulting than I am.

1:18:02

So, you know what? Hats off to you.

1:18:04

I'm better at adulting? Yeah. Well,

1:18:06

I've got the kids, obviously. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's

1:18:10

pretty adult. Yeah. It's pretty adult. Not

1:18:12

if you ask them. I

1:18:17

don't know what I'm doing. I think you're doing great. Thanks,

1:18:20

buddy. Congratulations on the new record.

1:18:23

Thanks. And congratulations on the

1:18:25

reunion. Yeah. Congratulations

1:18:28

on the bar. Thank you. My

1:18:30

gosh. It's a huge year. Three

1:18:32

things all happening at the same time. Not my

1:18:34

plan. Meant to spread them out. But

1:18:37

it's what they call a drop in the biz. It's a

1:18:39

lot of drops. It's a lot of drops this year. A

1:18:42

lot of drops. It was supposed to

1:18:44

be a drip, but it turned into a drop. Thank

1:18:50

you, Jason, for coming on the show.

1:18:52

When you're ready, Jason will be back

1:18:54

at some point in the future for

1:18:57

more hanging out in the basement. Best

1:18:59

place in the world. Weird smells. But

1:19:02

a lot of cool stuff to look at. Check

1:19:05

out Jason's stuff that I mentioned off the top.

1:19:09

And speaking of things to check out, check

1:19:12

out on the next episode from

1:19:14

the amazing Legends L7.

1:19:19

Jennifer Finch is on the show for, dare I

1:19:21

say, one of the all-time episodes of

1:19:23

Turn Out of Punk. And

1:19:25

I can't wait for you to hear it. And that is coming out

1:19:27

on the next one. So

1:19:31

much good stuff on that episode. It's exciting. That's

1:19:34

the end of the show. Remember, as always,

1:19:36

Black Lives Matter, the lives and issues of

1:19:38

indigenous peoples all over the world matter. We

1:19:41

need to protect trans kids and help

1:19:43

trans people protect their rights and their

1:19:45

safety. Stop

1:19:47

hating violence towards people of

1:19:49

different faiths, different races, different

1:19:52

nationalities, because we're not talking about

1:19:54

politics. It's just basic human rights. People deserve to

1:19:56

be able to live free from hate, violence, and

1:19:58

discrimination. There's organizations that

1:20:00

are affecting positive change in your world.

1:20:02

Get involved, donate your time, donate your

1:20:04

money, because it can

1:20:07

feel better when you get involved. It's going

1:20:09

to get involved. Start a band. Start

1:20:12

a punk band. Anyone can do that shit. Start

1:20:15

putting on shows, start making flyers.

1:20:18

Just do something in the punk scene, to

1:20:20

paraphrase Tony Urba. Because

1:20:23

this thing gets better when you get involved. So

1:20:26

you know about things that need your involvement, donate your

1:20:28

organs. Because by the time they come looking for those

1:20:30

organs, you don't need them. And I've seen the miracles

1:20:32

they perform. Sign your organ

1:20:34

donor cards where you can. And

1:20:37

try meditating. It works for me. Maybe

1:20:40

it'll work for you. It took me a long time to

1:20:42

work for me. I didn't believe in it. Like, you know,

1:20:44

people have been doing this thing for centuries. But

1:20:47

I didn't really believe in it. Now,

1:20:49

you know, it works. And there's no

1:20:51

specific practice that I'm pushing on you.

1:20:53

Try breathing and shutting off your brain a

1:20:55

little bit. Well,

1:20:57

that's me. Well, that's me. That's

1:21:00

it for me. I'm going to shut off my brain now. Thank

1:21:03

you everyone for listening. Stay safe.