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back. Hello

1:27

and welcome to another edition of Turn Out of

1:29

Punk. I'm your host, Damien Abraham. And once again,

1:32

I'm bringing you a conversation with someone who grumbles

1:34

into punk, may or may not still be involved with punk, but

1:37

had the life changed by the genre in a major way. And

1:39

today on the show, huge guest,

1:41

an amazing episode from the

1:44

legendary band L7. And

1:47

from lots of other stuff we talk about, some real interesting

1:49

stuff on this one. Jennifer

1:51

Finch is on the show today. And

1:54

this, move! There's a

1:56

good one. There's a long one. But it's worth it.

1:58

More on that in one second. first

2:01

If you'd like to get in touch with me

2:03

head over to the email address turned out upon

2:05

[email protected] That is run

2:07

by my brother who is the

2:10

show producer and guest booker? Extraordinary

2:12

just neighbor ham and you get the message to me you

2:16

invite me on various forms of social media

2:18

at left for Damien the podcast has a

2:22

YouTube page Tiktok page

2:25

an Instagram page a Facebook page all those

2:27

can be found at turned out a punk

2:29

on those platforms There

2:32

if you want to support the show support the show by

2:34

telling all your friends about it Let them all know that

2:37

there's a podcast that you really enjoy called turned out a

2:39

punk You can also check out

2:41

the band. I play in over at fucked up

2:43

dot CC. We are currently I Guess

2:46

we just wrapped it up. Yeah, we're just

2:49

we've wrapped up. We've just wrapped up a

2:51

tour of a superjung We've got more stuff

2:53

coming up in the future probably You

2:56

find out more information though it fucked up dot CC

2:58

records and all sorts of stuff probably leftover stuff from

3:01

the tour Merchwise as well.

3:03

So head on over there And

3:08

onto today's show today on the

3:10

show as I mentioned off the

3:13

top is a Fantastic

3:15

guest Jennifer Finches on the

3:17

podcast today This was something

3:19

that I had I didn't

3:21

know what to expect, you know I knew Jennifer was

3:23

cool hurt her on other

3:25

places and be interviewed before and she

3:28

was always Awesome, but my

3:30

gosh, this is a fun conversation This is

3:32

what this is why you do this podcast

3:35

because you know, they're all great There's

3:38

very few that are terrible, but every

3:40

once in a while There's one of these

3:42

episodes that is just like oh, yeah, that's why we

3:44

do this thing I Guess

3:47

I if you are not immersed in the

3:50

world of L7 immerse yourself in the world

3:52

of L7 a fantastic hugely

3:54

important band head over to

3:56

L7 the band comm and

3:58

to the L7 documentary.

4:01

There's tons of

4:03

amazing videos. They're reissuing a bunch of

4:05

key L7 records right

4:08

now as they're coming up on

4:10

their anniversaries. There's the Smell

4:13

the Magic anniversary on Sub Pop,

4:15

which is unbelievable. There's also the

4:17

Brixner Heavy anniversary, which is

4:19

coming up later on this year, the 30th anniversary

4:21

of that record. And there

4:23

is new music from L7 because they are

4:26

a band that continues to put out fantastic

4:28

records. And once

4:31

again, find out more all

4:33

over there at l7theband.com and

4:35

catch them on tour.

4:38

They're going to be going on tour

4:40

this summer or spring it looks like

4:42

and they're coming to your town. An unbelievable

4:44

band, a huge band for me. I'm

4:47

not going to ramble on anymore because it's a long

4:49

episode and we go all sorts of cool places. A

4:51

lot of interesting stuff in this one. That's

4:55

it. Sit

4:57

back, relax, enjoy Jennifer Finch,

4:59

Unturned Out A

5:02

Punk. Jennifer,

5:06

it is an honor to have you Unturned

5:09

Out A Punk. Oh, tell me more.

5:11

Well, as I told you off air, I

5:14

find you like I'm a

5:17

huge fan of your music and multiple

5:19

of your bands. We'll talk about not just L7,

5:21

but we'll talk about a lot of the projects

5:23

you kind of did post L7 too. Okay, so

5:25

who does your research? Me. I'm a nerd.

5:32

I know, right? Well, you know, yeah. This

5:35

is sadly when my

5:38

wife's like, okay, can you please remember to get these

5:40

things from the grocery store? And I remember two of

5:42

the things that she told me to get from the

5:44

list of seven because

5:46

I'm thinking about your

5:48

connection to Savage Republic. It's like, this is

5:51

why I'm not focused on the things I

5:53

should be focused on is because I'm you

5:55

have you have seen professionals over this

5:57

and did they try to medicate you and a

6:00

child. I was medicated more

6:02

as an adult and

6:05

I feel like the medication that they put

6:07

me on really is what set me on

6:09

this path of fixation. Interesting. And now the

6:11

cannabis just allows me to pontificate on it

6:14

a little bit more and yeah, yeah, I

6:16

operate on it a little bit more. But

6:20

this is, as I say, going to be a

6:22

huge thrill for me and I hopefully bearable for

6:24

you. But we got to start it off. We

6:26

all start off, which is Jennifer. One person's having

6:28

a thrill in me, others just bearing

6:31

it. I like your comfort. Isn't that

6:33

how all these interviews are? If like, for

6:36

the most part, it's just the interview. I'm

6:38

a thrill and you're bearing it. Oh, believe

6:40

me. You have the beard to prove that

6:42

you're kind of in the bear category. This

6:45

isn't about me. This is about you,

6:47

Jennifer. It's about us. How'd

6:50

you get in a punk for the first time you ever

6:53

came across it? How did I get

6:55

turned out punk? How did you get turned out

6:57

of punk? Yeah, I think

6:59

that it's like the very typical story.

7:01

As I've heard actually on many of

7:03

your interviews, it started with a babysitter

7:06

and then kind of ended at the record store. And

7:09

in between, you had a babysitter who

7:11

brought me Ramones and Devo and Buzzcocks, things

7:13

that are kind of like really for kids

7:15

and expression of childishness

7:17

in punk rock. And we're

7:20

talking early on, we're talking

7:24

but you know, I am from a generation. So maybe

7:26

like 77, 78. I was still quite

7:29

little. I was very little,

7:33

this little, no one who's listening

7:35

can see what I'm doing. A small child,

7:37

but a child. Small child.

7:39

And then, you know, it turned into when

7:42

punk started to be covered. I grew up

7:44

in Los Angeles. First off, I was born in

7:46

Boyle Heights, California. I grew up on the west

7:48

side in Los Angeles. I

7:50

was adopted, came through the foster system and

7:52

I was adopted and I was an only

7:54

child being adopted. So

7:57

a lot of resources were put into me.

8:00

I was going to say, like

8:02

that was a benefit of like what was

8:04

a very kind of traumatic experience. So

8:07

my father would take me to the

8:09

bookstore and eventually at some point I

8:11

wandered into the music section and by

8:13

the late 70s punk as

8:16

a cultural expression, not necessarily

8:19

a music expression, was

8:21

in, you know, the LA

8:23

Times and our local publications, but

8:25

it was also landed on the bookshelves in

8:28

the music section, in the art

8:30

section, in the fashion section. It

8:32

became like an obsession not for

8:35

the music, but for everything else

8:37

that punk did culturally. People

8:39

started writing about it, you

8:41

know, it was proving I think

8:43

what a lot of philosophers and

8:45

thinkers were talking about in

8:48

the 50s and the 60s about

8:50

where society was going and

8:52

like sort of the breakdown of the grand narrative.

8:55

And although it was, you know,

8:57

punk music we know about, but it

8:59

was all of these people jumping into

9:01

the market to like sell their pop

9:04

culture books on crazy fashion that was

9:06

like ripped up and people that dyed

9:08

their hair and people that cut their

9:10

foreheads and, you know, movies

9:14

and film and television in Los

9:16

Angeles started to play around with

9:18

having the punk extra or the

9:21

punk environment to show troubled teens.

9:24

You know what I mean? So like there

9:26

started to be like a media kind of

9:28

thing. So when I think about punk, I

9:30

don't always just think about my first records,

9:32

although yes, they were important, you know. My

9:37

first exposure to music though was

9:39

more about I lived, my parents

9:41

were not music people and

9:43

I lived in a neighborhood that through

9:46

the 70s started to be gentrified and

9:49

so people would have garage sales and

9:51

be selling their records. So the

9:53

first records that I got were like John

9:55

Lee Hooker, Funkadelic,

9:59

you know, these records from

10:01

the people that lived in my neighborhood

10:03

were my first exposure. So I got,

10:05

you know, looking back, I

10:07

got the music education. I feel like

10:10

I got, I, you know, I got

10:12

to be involved in a conversation with,

10:15

you know, the original expressions of punk rock

10:17

that were not yet in the white communities,

10:19

that were not yet in the mainstream communities,

10:22

that didn't hit England, like what rock and

10:24

roll really was shaped, you know, how it

10:26

was shaped. And right

10:29

away, right from what

10:31

you could consider kind of

10:33

record collector, marginalized, you know,

10:35

music that wasn't in the

10:37

mainstream, I immediately jumped into

10:39

punk rock. But with

10:42

the punk rock, I was late into it,

10:44

right? Like we talked about 76, the dams first

10:47

record, Ramones, you

10:49

know, the expressions of, I don't even, people

10:52

call it the pre-punk, what do you call

10:54

like? Yeah, proto punk, I don't even think

10:56

it's proto punk, it was just rock then,

10:59

you know, it, I mean, you could say

11:01

that it led up to it, but I don't

11:03

think it led up to it musically, it led

11:06

up to it culturally, you know,

11:09

I mean, the look of it led up to

11:11

it. But the folks that were doing that

11:13

music, like in New York, and even the

11:16

Ramones, I feel like they were just tastemakers,

11:18

they just wanted to be on major labels and

11:21

change major labels. They

11:23

weren't interested in counterculture or, you

11:26

know, that much different. I love

11:28

Patti Smith, one of my

11:30

all-time favorite artists, I, you know, licked the

11:33

ground she walks on, I've been in rooms

11:35

with her and have never been able to

11:37

talk to her. Like she is, she

11:39

is, you know what I mean? Yoko

11:42

Ono, same, like they are

11:44

these original, not even

11:46

you're talking about female, I'm talking about punk,

11:49

you know, to me, these are the

11:51

original originators, and

11:55

they weren't out to do punk, you know

11:57

what they were out to for for mainstream

12:00

recognition and to change the

12:02

way people fought in mainstream, right? I

12:04

think in my opinion, what

12:06

do you think? I think, well, I think what you're

12:08

saying is fascinating too. Cause like, I love that idea

12:10

of like, it's kind of being pre-fortold and the idea

12:12

that this sort of dream

12:14

of the sixties culturally is going to eventually,

12:17

Oh, hello. Cameo is

12:21

going to break down and you're going to have, something's

12:24

going to come out of it and you're

12:26

right. Like it all, it is from fashion,

12:28

from to film, to visual

12:30

art, to, I'm sure dance and certainly theater,

12:32

you hear about it happening a lot in

12:34

New York and theater. Speaking of Patti Smith,

12:38

where there's this sort of new need for

12:40

like a different type of expression and it's,

12:43

it's amazing as it gets kind of like given

12:45

a name because you're right, there is something that

12:47

happens prior to it that isn't necessarily sonically linked

12:49

to it, but it's sort

12:51

of like, philosophically linked

12:53

to it and as this sort

12:55

of coalesces into the genre and

12:57

then as it goes

12:59

on, people begin rejecting the

13:02

traditional trappings, like the idea that

13:04

there is, and obviously everyone wants to

13:06

get people to enjoy their band and to

13:08

see their band, but you get

13:11

to a point where by the

13:13

late nineties, there was a complete rejection of

13:15

any sort of a mainstream

13:17

success by a lot of bands and the

13:19

idea of like, you know, you have Fugazi

13:22

almost taking a vow of poverty with

13:25

their band just to, just

13:28

as like sort of a culmination almost

13:30

of this sort of like philosophical thing

13:32

that just, anyway. Yeah,

13:34

but I mean, we have that earlier. I mean, we have

13:36

that earlier in the squat cultures and

13:38

I think

13:41

women talked about it more so,

13:44

and we do have it with, you

13:46

know, like crass. I mean, that was much earlier,

13:48

you know, in that idea. And,

13:51

you know, there is with

13:53

MC5 and the politics,

13:55

I mean, it all went sideways for

13:58

them, but some of their original philosophy.

14:00

philosophies did kind of

14:02

express this idea of they wanted

14:04

something. They were the first punk

14:07

band with like a top 100

14:09

hit, right? I mean, really what we're going to call proto-punk

14:12

in Canada. So your

14:14

people. But

14:17

I mean, with Fugazi, like I think all those

14:19

other bands, you're 100% right. Like this

14:21

thing, this ethic of rejection of

14:23

mainstream trappings, it certainly isn't unique to punk.

14:25

But I think doing so solely in the

14:27

name of punk. Like why are you doing

14:30

this because of punk? Well let's stop right now

14:32

for one second. I totally agree, but I

14:34

want to add in something else to the

14:36

conversation. You're talking

14:38

about... Because

14:40

let's also like, let's throw Brett Gerwitz

14:42

into this too, and let's throw Fat

14:45

Mike into this. How

14:48

fun is it to be able to reject the

14:51

mainstream when you already have a record label?

14:54

So don't... I mean, and I like

14:56

it, but it's kind of like that

14:58

paradox that sometimes you call the Cobain

15:00

Paradox, right? It's referred to as

15:03

the Cobain... I didn't invent that, but you're like

15:05

MTV sucks and you're on the

15:07

platform of MTV doing it, right?

15:10

You're like, major labels suck, fine

15:12

you know? And I get

15:14

it because there's a desire to create

15:16

commerce outside of the system,

15:19

but it's still part of the system and

15:22

there's still a privilege that comes with

15:24

being able to do that. Oh,

15:26

absolutely. The same. No,

15:28

absolutely. And I think Mike would push back on

15:31

this and I think probably... They probably push back

15:33

on it. Oh no, he has. We've been talking about this since 1986.

15:36

But you're right. There's also like... And

15:39

to go step back, there's also like a certain

15:41

level of privilege to even

15:43

be able to play music, obviously, to have equipment, but

15:45

I mean like to have the means

15:47

to put out a record. And we certainly have had

15:50

people on this podcast that have come on and said,

15:52

yeah, the reason you don't hear music from my

15:54

first band is because we were broke and we didn't have

15:56

any friends that had any money to put out records. Like

15:58

it was like survival for us. a lot of our stuff. And

16:00

I think that's why certain scenes are better

16:03

documented than other scenes is because there was a greater

16:05

means to capital and you're 100% right. And I

16:08

find, I think it's also fascinating that you

16:10

brought up those three people because all

16:12

of them, maybe not

16:14

bread, I don't really know bread at all, but like all of

16:17

them would wave the flag and say, I'm

16:19

punk, this is punk, what I'm doing is

16:21

punk rock. But both Ian

16:23

and Fat Mike, I could not think of

16:25

two people that are more diametrically opposed to

16:28

each other philosophically on almost

16:30

every other issue other than punk rock

16:33

being independent and punk rock being a

16:35

certain sonic. Yeah, but

16:37

they're just, I feel, well, I can

16:39

tell you my perception is that like

16:41

the things that make them different are

16:43

really the accessories of their lives. You

16:46

know, the things that kind of

16:48

identify them is like uniquely human.

16:52

But at the core, there are two people that

16:54

run record labels and

16:56

they may philosophically think

16:58

of it a little bit differently, but

17:00

in a lot of their ideas about

17:03

inclusion of artists who were not what

17:05

normally excluded, that's a huge similarity.

17:08

Right? Oh,

17:10

absolutely. And I think there's, well,

17:12

you go right down the line of all these

17:14

independent labels. It's white males, not

17:17

to undercut Laura Merge and there's certainly other women that

17:19

were involved in up here. A lot

17:22

of these labels were run by women when

17:24

you actually start peeling back the layers, but

17:26

it's a lot of white dudes in

17:29

these positions to pick who the bands are and who

17:31

got signed and who didn't get signed. And I think

17:34

history is written in the margins in a lot of

17:36

cases. And that's the amazing moment we're

17:38

at now is where you can kind of go back and

17:40

see sadly what

17:42

was excluded, but also put together a much

17:44

fuller picture of what it was. Yeah.

17:48

I'm not saying I'm against it. I'm just saying that I think

17:50

that there's room, you know, like a lot of in punk

17:53

rock, there isn't room for the, I

17:56

don't want to say this fancy word that I

17:58

learned in fancy college recently, but critique. You

18:00

know like it's okay to

18:02

have conversations about talking about what's

18:05

missing along with talking about what

18:07

got shown And it's okay.

18:10

You know it's it's just a calm. It's

18:12

a conversation to have and it's not an

18:14

attack on either

18:16

of those people who I

18:18

think are amazing human beings and Congratulations

18:21

on your recent fat Mike episode that just come

18:23

out. Oh, that was a little one. You're airing

18:25

mine No, that was that was a very that

18:27

was actually the first time I met Mike if you go through They've

18:30

gotten a little more heated as That's

18:33

what very glowing. I'm very like revelatory of

18:35

Mike at that point but I think as

18:38

it's gone on like and I and I love Mike

18:40

and I certainly I love Ian I love both these

18:42

guys and I think they They

18:45

have done or they shaped who

18:47

I am Ideologically like they wrote different books of

18:49

the Bible to me basically with the

18:51

records they put out and the stuff they were involved

18:53

in and all various books is

18:55

a big Bible that I'm reading but At

18:59

the same time like you're saying like I think

19:01

the fact that we can critique these people and

19:03

can critique this stuff is what makes punk special

19:06

that it is the sort of living

19:08

organic thing that that is open to

19:10

reassessment and is open to Yeah,

19:13

we read Structuring

19:16

sure yeah and even in listening to you

19:18

like you know if you just kind of

19:20

think about the sound biting of Mike And

19:22

like I always listen to his interviews, and I'm just like

19:25

How are we gonna compete with the idea

19:27

of a butt plug going through TSA? and

19:32

You know the phone That

19:34

story is just so incredible right, but then

19:36

you know There's another

19:38

like very rebellion like that might be

19:41

his personal rebellion like his Expression

19:43

of like what makes him unique

19:45

in that extreme? But we

19:47

could also look at Ian who would not

19:49

have a butt plug going through TSA But

19:52

is also unique in his? extremes

19:55

of like you know like

19:57

his founding of

19:59

his personality and those stories

20:01

of that kind of rebellion. So

20:03

if you look at it, it's like not the

20:05

story, it's like that energy under

20:08

the story, right? It's like

20:10

that. And it can be... And

20:12

that's kind of the message, I think, of punk

20:14

in the personal life of people, is that it

20:16

may not be your story. There

20:20

may be seven people in a room,

20:22

and two of them only go on to

20:24

do something interesting that you and

20:27

I had talked about earlier that maybe we can elaborate,

20:29

because it's like a conversation from before.

20:31

But those other folks, those people went

20:33

on to go do interesting things probably

20:35

in their lives too. They're just

20:37

not documented. They're not going to be talking about

20:40

it on a podcast. But

20:42

there's so much revolution and

20:44

raising your kids and

20:47

how you work and what you

20:49

buy and what you do in

20:51

this world, that's interesting too to

20:53

me. Fans

20:56

of punk rock are way more

20:58

interesting than the people that are

21:00

on stage. Way more interesting. Well,

21:03

I think the thing that I loved about punk rock, and

21:06

I think even on that first Warped Tour, I don't

21:08

know, being on that Warped Tour probably felt very different,

21:11

but it's that there was this idea that it was

21:13

a breaking down of who was on stage and

21:15

who was in the crowd. That

21:18

was the Sex Pistols. That started with Sex Pistols,

21:20

don't you think? I think

21:22

it even probably starts before that.

21:25

I've never seen footage of the thugs playing,

21:27

but I imagine bands like the Fugs. I

21:30

look at the thing I wanted to talk to you about, which is

21:33

the thing that I think is a sonic precursor to punk

21:35

in a lot of ways are bands like the

21:38

Imperial Dogs or Zolar X or the stuff

21:40

that was happening in Los

21:42

Angeles area prior to

21:44

punk, because I think that to me is

21:46

like a direct

21:49

precursor to this sonically. I'm

21:53

fascinated by that stuff. I

21:55

think that in the United

21:57

States, This

22:00

is my first draft on this.

22:02

So like this, you know, bring

22:04

your sociologist to cut me

22:06

down and argue. I'm totally ready. But

22:09

there's this idea that in the 60s

22:11

we did start to have garage rock.

22:13

So sonically, we're talking about a type

22:15

of music. Kind

22:18

of came out of both Detroit and

22:21

Los Angeles. And why? Because

22:23

I think the automobile dictated the

22:25

garage. And the garage dictated private

22:27

space where you could be loud

22:30

and more experimental. And

22:34

bands came out of this as their true

22:36

musical expression. And there's a

22:38

lot of them. But we can look at

22:40

maybe compilations like nuggets

22:43

and stuff like that to go look at them. But

22:46

I think that what ended up happening was,

22:48

at least for the US, we went into

22:50

the Vietnam War and it took a lot

22:52

of our musicians at that time with it.

22:55

And people came back traumatized.

22:58

Society was traumatized and wanting to

23:00

be normalized. So a lot of

23:02

people put down their instruments, didn't

23:04

follow through with their stuff. So

23:07

then that could be picked up later. The

23:10

UK had a similar

23:12

experience with the fall

23:14

of colonialism and

23:16

what they called pub rock, which

23:20

I can't even scare up an example right

23:22

now. But the string was- Feel good in

23:24

like- Right, yeah. You know, the pub rock.

23:27

Yeah. So it was like a

23:29

similar experience, but I think pub rock stayed

23:31

strong. Like there were still people playing all

23:33

the way up through, let's say, I mean,

23:36

I consider like maybe the damned to

23:38

be one of the first singles

23:42

that would really call itself punk.

23:45

The PR was punk. The public relations

23:47

was punk, right? I

23:50

think that's fascinating what you're saying too about

23:53

the garage rock idea and like the way

23:55

that- it's not geography, I guess,

23:57

like architecture or industry dictates.

23:59

And it does feel like

24:02

– and it certainly does

24:04

come at a garage rock. And I think Los

24:06

Angeles in particular, like another thing that I think added

24:08

to the trauma that you kind of talked about with

24:11

Vietnam was the Manson thing and

24:13

how much that comes up on this show.

24:15

Oh, interesting. There's

24:44

a fear of this sort of thing that – where

24:46

it's like the energy of this thing that

24:49

is just rearing

24:52

its head again, which is, I guess,

24:54

youthful expression and punk especially because

24:56

anyone could participate in it. Anyone could be involved in

24:58

this thing no matter where you came from. Right,

25:01

right. Yeah, for Los Angeles too, I think a

25:03

little bit. I mean, I wasn't there. Thankfully,

25:06

I'm not that. I

25:10

mean, I think

25:12

that there was the first expressions

25:14

of punk rock in Los Angeles when

25:16

we were talking about Alice Bagg and

25:19

the DERMs and we're really talking about

25:21

early, early, and how they were really

25:23

influenced by – it really was media

25:25

that came over. And I'm

25:27

going to say it was fashion

25:30

media that came over. And,

25:33

you know, LA was such a unique

25:36

kind of like expression of it because

25:38

they weren't about the designer designing punk. They were

25:40

about thrift-storing. They were about like really creating from

25:42

the environment. Like

25:44

Los Angeles was as far

25:46

west as you could go for the

25:48

American dream. And it felt like that

25:51

I think – and I don't –

25:53

maybe people that time. But they could satirize

25:56

this idea and do parody around

25:58

like the Manson family. Like,

26:00

it became kitschy at a

26:02

certain point, and nostalgia for

26:05

the 60s to kind of, like, point

26:07

to it as an expression

26:09

of, like, why it was so messed

26:11

up, and why,

26:14

like, the grand narrative of, like, you

26:16

know, you get you grow

26:18

up, and then, you know, get married,

26:21

and like, get educated, and move to

26:23

the suburbs and raise your kids, and

26:25

like, you get two cars, and like,

26:27

you get a garage, and like, you

26:29

get this stuff, these

26:32

rewards for becoming middle class, and

26:34

how that was just completely broken

26:36

down, and then satirized.

26:38

And I think that a lot of

26:40

the early punks, I'm just going to say,

26:42

I know that there are all these stories about, I

26:44

ran away from home at 16, but there's a lot

26:46

of like, focused education, and like, those people

26:49

could talk about it, you know, like, that

26:51

thing about, we always talk about UK punk rock,

26:54

right? Everyone met at art school in 1976. There

26:56

wasn't one person that didn't meet at art school,

26:58

so that meant they had to go get into a

27:00

school, they had to create a portfolio. Dave Vainian's just

27:02

like, I don't know, I was doing art, and then

27:04

these guys said I needed to be a singer in

27:06

a band, and I was like, okay, and like, all

27:08

the class are like, yeah, we all met at art

27:10

school, you know, so, you

27:13

know, so there's like, this kind of thing where

27:15

I think, like, it wasn't just an accident of

27:17

expression, I think people kind of knew what they

27:19

were doing, pushing out

27:21

their opinions and their creativity. I

27:25

think it was certainly very contrived

27:27

at certain points in certain scenes, but

27:29

I think there's other ones where it

27:31

does almost feel a little weirdly spontaneous,

27:34

or just like, weird

27:36

convergences of things to happen. I think

27:38

Los Angeles especially, I think, also,

27:40

Los Angeles is the first birthplace of sort of the

27:42

punk rock kit, because you look at, yeah,

27:45

you've got like, a lot of people meeting in

27:48

college, you have a lot of people, and, you

27:50

know, certainly New York, we're older, whereas in

27:52

LA, it's all kids at these shows, and kids

27:54

making up some of these bands, these first bands.

27:57

Right, and then like, one of my theories on

27:59

like, early punk rock in Los Angeles

28:01

is that these young people came in in

28:03

the late 70s, like you can

28:06

talk about that first wave, the first 100

28:08

in Los Angeles, but then like 1981, everyone

28:11

complains, oh, the shows they got, you

28:13

know, all these suburban kids came in and that

28:15

was my generation. Thank you. I was one

28:17

of those suburban kids that came in and lit

28:19

fires in bathrooms and ripped fucking toilets out of

28:21

the wall. I'm just going to tell you. So

28:25

yes. But you know,

28:28

also a lot of it was, you know, those kids

28:30

that were 16 and 76, we're now getting

28:33

older and they were thinking about career and

28:35

getting married and leaving the punk scene to go

28:38

have careers in film and all these other things

28:40

that they did. And yes, they were getting pushed out

28:42

and you know, people were warming at the Fleetwood

28:46

or you know, whatever the people

28:48

talk about. Well, that's and I

28:50

think that's amazing because that sets a

28:52

precedent for where punk goes and how

28:55

it's always like that. Like you're always

28:57

it's your scene. And then

28:59

there comes a point where you have to become

29:02

not post punk the genre, but post punk

29:04

as that doesn't mean you have to leave the scene or

29:07

leave the values or stop going to shows or anything, but

29:09

just surrender the zeitgeist to another generation and

29:12

it might not look like what you want

29:14

punk to look like. You might not be

29:16

in punk, right? But punk

29:18

punk sacrifices itself at the altar

29:21

of the mainstream every 10

29:23

years and then reemerges as a different

29:25

expression and it has to. And

29:28

I feel like in Los Angeles, it's fascinating at a

29:31

certain point from what people have

29:33

told me what obviously has been written

29:35

about in books now and storied is that the

29:38

violence just becomes too much and it just sort of

29:40

seems like it implodes. And I guess there's also the

29:42

draw of metal that's happening and there's an exodus of

29:44

the scene, but it

29:47

doesn't die. It just goes underground. Like

29:49

there's still your future

29:51

bandmate and chain of strength. There's still like

29:53

people doing hardcore and punk, right? Like there's

29:55

future justice league. I guess he was playing

29:57

in back then. It's

30:00

just underground. It goes back to smaller venues.

30:02

It just, you're like, you're saying, it just

30:05

reiterates itself because it

30:07

won't die. It's just like now that we have, now

30:09

that the kids have a name

30:11

for this thing that you were talking about

30:13

earlier with Patti Smith and Yoko Ono being

30:15

the precursors to, now that it's named and

30:17

we have it as a defined thing, it's

30:20

never going to die. It's just going to change

30:22

shapes and find

30:24

a new hole to live in. Yeah,

30:28

but yeah, I think one of

30:30

the concerns though is this idea

30:33

of where we originally like, the

30:39

obsession with documenting self

30:42

that I think my generation has, I

30:45

think is really a disservice not to

30:47

what's going on in punk right now, but definitely

30:49

10 years from now. This

30:52

idea that you could be in trash

30:54

talk and like Cat Williams is doing

30:56

shorts in your audience, if

30:58

that was even real. That's real. That's 100% real. Oh

31:01

my God. Suge Knight was there

31:03

too. That's

31:06

the thing. The questioning now of

31:08

what is real and what's not

31:10

real in the simulation of culture.

31:14

But that's why this is important because

31:17

this is real and everyone, like we

31:20

get hit up sometimes for people to come on this podcast

31:22

and I'll be like, let me research

31:24

it for a second. And you can look in to

31:27

anyone's kind of like pedigree being involved in this music.

31:29

You can hit up friends from a given city. You

31:31

can be like, what's the deal with this band? What's

31:33

the deal with this artist? And

31:36

we're all connected. And that's something that I think is

31:38

amazing is that it is

31:40

like this living organism that keeps growing. We

31:43

are all connected, but

31:46

what about 10 years

31:48

from now when we

31:50

start experiencing AI being

31:53

able to not generate, but

31:55

being able to where you

31:57

like, don't you ever just wake up and

31:59

you're like, Need a new band, but

32:01

why can't the algorithm give me that net

32:04

like I'm frustrated with it Like

32:06

people think oh the algorithms telling me how

32:08

to like me. I'm like no I need

32:10

you know It's not good enough yet because

32:12

the one Well, I'll take me

32:14

to KU author The

32:17

one thing the algorithm will never be better than

32:19

us with is

32:21

a Sweaty show

32:23

like this the algorithm

32:25

until that made the virtual reality

32:27

bodysuit will finally like kill DIY

32:29

hardcore punk rock because Until

32:32

you can and Covid certainly put it on

32:34

the ropes for a while But until

32:37

you find a way to get rid of the

32:39

idea of going to an environment and feeling this

32:41

sort of shared expression with a bunch of people

32:44

That are excited about generating their own culture. There's

32:46

that's the thing I think it's magical about this

32:49

thing and that's the thing that will never hopefully

32:51

die and You do see

32:53

it There's like there's new bands and I think

32:55

the the people that are gonna be influenced by

32:57

this next wave of bands that are hopefully blowing

33:00

up now Are going to be

33:02

inspired to do this thing and it's going to I don't

33:04

know but I'm an extremist obviously with my views on

33:06

this No,

33:09

no, I totally think that like that is

33:12

you know the hope of community

33:14

connection and the feeling of connection

33:16

the Sweaty

33:21

show there might have to be

33:23

at some point that

33:25

might not exist I'm

33:28

not trying to be a fatalist. No you I know and

33:30

I get it and I'm just saying it might not exist

33:32

That's what I'm talking. I'm not talking about today. I think

33:35

kids today are on it. I think Kids

33:37

today are on it like this alpha

33:40

Generation like 14 year olds

33:42

right now and like what they're they're

33:45

amazing So they truly

33:47

are like I am NOT worried. It's

33:49

more about what What

33:51

is how they are going to be impacted by? post

33:55

capitalism Marketing like

33:57

the pressures that they're gonna have

33:59

of this conformity and maybe

34:01

their kids, whatever. Oh, it's terrifying.

34:03

It's terrifying. Like raising kids right now. It's

34:06

so terrifying. It is. It is. It's something that needs to

34:08

be talked about. I wake up

34:10

every morning scared. I wake

34:12

up every morning. No, but

34:15

that's because you're being informed

34:17

by algorithm to be scared. No,

34:20

I'm more scared of the fact that I've

34:22

got three kids and I pin my hopes

34:24

and dreams on positive pitchfork reviews. Like, there's

34:26

really not a lot to be positive about

34:29

now. Yeah,

34:31

but your kids are going to be so much more. They

34:34

already are. I look at them now. There's

34:36

so much more than like, I don't

34:39

know, people always come up to me like, what advice

34:41

would you give my 14 year old who wants to

34:43

be in a band? I'm just like, don't

34:46

listen to anyone over 23 years

34:48

old giving you advice. Do not. We're

34:52

just going to exploit you ultimately. So

34:54

don't listen to us. Well,

34:57

and I think that is the biggest threat to youth culture

34:59

now is that you

35:01

don't have things that have

35:04

time to develop because as soon as

35:06

something gets any

35:09

sort of traction, it just becomes part of,

35:13

or just gets, you know, sucked, subsumed

35:15

into whatever is going to be

35:17

the wood chipper that hopefully you make it out of in

35:19

one piece. So you don't

35:21

really have the fostering

35:23

and sort of building of communities like you

35:26

used to is more just like individual artists

35:28

now, which is never,

35:31

you know, they're never going to build anything out of

35:33

one artist. You need to sort of like, you

35:35

know, leave the whole anti club.

35:38

As long as it's like, if we're holding

35:40

the artist is like, that is our pinpoint.

35:44

If we're holding that, you

35:46

know, if we start thinking about community

35:49

moving forward, maybe that could be different

35:51

because we're in different like various communities

35:54

on the internet and in

35:56

our connections. I mean, I'm not a huge fan

35:59

of social media. but I accept it

36:01

for what it is to be able to

36:03

look at it and figure

36:05

it out and I

36:07

think that you know I don't

36:11

even know anyone in my life right now I don't know

36:13

a 14 year old that even wants to interact with their

36:15

phone they're just burnt out on it by 14 so

36:18

it's like an interesting thing to watch. I

36:21

would love my 14 year old to get burnt out

36:23

on his phone a little bit more but it has

36:25

not happened yet but you're right they

36:27

don't want to put themselves out there in the

36:29

way that certainly

36:32

I did our generation yeah our generation

36:34

are you kidding I mean

36:37

I was a dog I couldn't stop documenting like

36:39

I'm part of that like I was a photographer

36:41

from the second I could get into shows I

36:43

was taking a camera you know so like I

36:45

was really part of that like don't look at

36:47

me I'm here to look at you you

36:50

know kind of like mentality and I

36:52

feel like that's what rolled

36:54

it out I was trying to

36:56

look at some of your photos today and

36:58

I feel like you have the most under

37:02

exploited is the most negative way to put it

37:04

but I thought maybe like brought

37:06

out to the world or shown

37:09

archive of unbelievable music shit

37:12

it's crazy the stuff that

37:14

you were obviously a

37:16

part of but prior to

37:18

that therefore and then just with

37:22

the camera snapping these snapshots like I would

37:24

love to see more stuff I've seen is

37:26

I get I get caught up in the

37:28

conversations that like a lot of those people

37:30

you know like yeah I have musicians but

37:33

I also like the stuff that I love is I

37:35

took photographs of other 14

37:38

15 16 year olds at the time and at the

37:41

time what we were into was not

37:43

what 14 15 and

37:45

16 year olds were into so there's a lot

37:47

of like thought about permission

37:50

and storytelling and like who gets to

37:52

tell a story so I'm all about

37:54

that so a lot of the stuff I don't show

37:57

you know it's like it's still a

37:59

conversation for me to figure out, you know? I

38:02

think it's interesting too because it's, you're

38:05

right, it does serve, especially

38:07

with the people that are involved in music that are doing this

38:09

stuff, it does serve

38:13

historical importance or whatever that kind of side of

38:15

things, but then you're right. Well there's another side

38:18

that continues the romanticism of it and

38:20

I think, I

38:22

don't know about yourself and certainly

38:24

the people around you at the time, but other people have been on

38:26

the show talked about Johnny Thunders and

38:28

I have friends that were, started doing heroin because

38:30

Johnny Thunders did it. Like there's still that sort

38:32

of punk rock,

38:36

oh this is, this is bad and we

38:38

shouldn't do it and we know how the

38:40

story ends for every single person we

38:43

worship, but there's also the idea that like you want

38:45

to try it, you want to do it. Mm-hmm.

38:49

And it's, yeah,

38:51

it just, yeah, that really, that it

38:53

gets complicated in that

38:55

sense because we were, you know, we're

38:58

really talking about some heartbreak and devastating

39:00

kind of experiences and, you know, it's

39:02

not just like, whoo, you know, the

39:04

we were so crazy back then kind

39:07

of conversations and like, well again, I

39:09

was just on a panel recently with

39:12

Flea who I've known forever,

39:14

completely, you know, such a different genre

39:16

but started in LA punk rock and

39:19

part of a lot of this. He was like one of

39:21

those first people when I was super young, I had people

39:24

would say, well what do you listen to and I'm like

39:26

Alice Coltrane, you know what I mean?

39:28

And they'd be like, no way! Like that's what I listen

39:30

to, you know, you, one of those, you know,

39:32

first people on, um, gotta

39:35

have some really good no means no stories. Are

39:38

they from Toronto or Vancouver? No, Victoria, but they

39:40

are one of the greatest bands ever. Yeah,

39:43

God, okay. My first show was actually gonna go, I

39:45

went to a no means no Altra Bade, Alice Donut

39:47

show and someone spat on the

39:49

lead singer of Alice Donut and he jumped in the

39:51

crowd and tried to beat the crappler. We

39:53

were so crazy back then. Okay, so Flea and I

39:55

were on a panel and it was one of

39:58

those like tell your punk rock. Stories

40:01

and by the way Awesome

40:03

genre. So everyone was telling that we were so

40:05

crazy. We stayed up all night. We did this

40:07

we did that today Which

40:10

is Michael Edwards like sitting there going Dude,

40:13

I was 15 Doing

40:16

heroin with adults. Do

40:18

you want to hear that story? And like

40:20

we're just like how do you unpack that to

40:22

an audience that just wants to hear about How

40:25

great punk rock was like how do you get

40:27

into the shade and the nuance and you know?

40:29

He and I just like what are we

40:31

gonna do and we're like, let's not you

40:33

know It's not it's not the time replaced like

40:35

right now and we're like well Let's just

40:38

tell a story about seeing you the first time you were

40:40

in fear when you played in

40:42

fear like Keith Morris jumped up And

40:44

I said and he's like, yeah, that's

40:46

a good one But we both can

40:48

tell it because we're so shaken by

40:50

the circumstances that really drove those situations

40:53

You know and like like okay, we're

40:55

gonna be okay, right? So that was

40:57

one thing. What else we're talking about Oh violence

41:00

in shows. Yeah violence in shows is

41:02

what singles out people that can't handle

41:04

the violence in shows And

41:06

that's an expression that happens that's happening in LA

41:08

right now Like the

41:10

shows are hyper violent. So it's just

41:12

like people like I'm not gonna

41:14

go to that my knee hurts, you know I'm

41:16

like like yeah you you're

41:19

risking it you're risking it because it is

41:21

like pro wrestling It's the same

41:23

thing as pro wrestling. It's where men get to

41:25

go to express self-harm with each other And

41:28

I think Nicole Panjara described as people with trauma

41:30

inflicting trauma on other people so they can inflict

41:32

trauma on other people like it really is a

41:36

place where and it and you see

41:38

it time and time again with

41:40

like hardcore and punk where people

41:42

get to it and people

41:44

come with some baggage and Sadly as positive

41:46

as the place it is like you're saying

41:49

it's a place where there's a lot of

41:51

terrible shit that Happened and so

41:53

probably still happens. I'm sure like yeah,

41:56

it's terrible shit. That's how

41:58

do you say it when when groups? Like

42:02

you may not do that outside of the

42:04

group, but you're totally okay with doing it

42:06

in the group, if that

42:08

makes sense. Yeah, like I guess. There's

42:10

a word for it, but no, probably. Yes,

42:13

you are. But it is. You're right. Like

42:15

there's like sort of a group

42:17

thing or a safety and it's interesting

42:19

because like in punk, we're

42:21

all coming here because we're rejecting

42:24

society, but yet we still reestablish

42:27

the structures of society within punk, where

42:29

there's a hierarchy and there's sort of

42:32

this idea of all the cool kids. Yeah,

42:34

they're not. Yeah. The fittest is reflected in

42:36

violence. Just saying.

42:38

I mean, the fittest of them. And,

42:41

you know, I love photographing that

42:44

experience. So like I get, you know,

42:46

I'm in on, you

42:48

know, that's one of my favorite male experiences are one

42:50

of my favorite. Like if

42:52

I could actually tolerate wartime

42:55

journalism, I would go do it. But

42:58

I can't like I feel too tender, you know,

43:00

to be able to really look at like true

43:02

pain and suffering. But I think

43:04

that like it's mimicking this, like, you

43:06

know, pain and suffering and hyper violence

43:08

and who gets to be on top.

43:11

And then also who cares for the other.

43:13

There's another like aspect, which I call I

43:15

fell down in the pit or

43:18

as I like to say, Sepultura is the safest

43:20

pit around like you just like I have

43:22

videos of me going into the pit and everyone

43:25

just helps you up because everyone's older. Yeah,

43:28

it's interesting. Cardio. It's just it ends up

43:30

being cardio if you're over 21. And

43:33

it and it shows up and

43:35

it spreads from L.A., right? There's

43:37

like the story that Rollins tells

43:39

in American hardcore. Well,

43:42

first off, it's always been

43:44

an expression as far

43:46

as we can tell in culture. I mean,

43:48

new information is always coming in, but it's

43:50

always been an expression. But

43:52

I just read this really great book

43:55

on Wagner, who

43:58

classical guy from the the late

44:00

1800s, in the late 1800s, a

44:03

lot of stuff was changing in society. For

44:05

instance, we got electricity. So

44:07

he was this guy that started to

44:09

realize that instead of like doing shows

44:11

in the daytime, he wanted to do

44:13

shows in the nighttime using

44:15

electricity to illuminate the stage,

44:18

this idea that it is a stage and

44:21

this idea that you have people in

44:23

your audience and people would go to

44:25

Wagner shows, hear his music,

44:28

you know, and just start punching

44:33

each other. This is in

44:35

the late 1800s. Polls were

44:38

called in to clear out the shows.

44:40

He eventually had to build his own theater because

44:42

nobody would let him come into their theaters

44:44

to be able to do it. And

44:46

it just sounds like we've

44:49

been cycling through that same kind of thing.

44:52

People were ripping the seats out and throwing

44:54

them into the streets. Yeah,

44:56

I think there's like, you think you're unique,

44:59

you're not. No, you're right. And

45:01

it's safe. It's like a horror

45:03

movie or a haunted house. It's like a safe

45:05

violence where you know, it's

45:07

going to be violent. And there's certainly a few people that

45:10

have been really hurt. But

45:12

there is, like you're saying, this

45:14

sort of safety that people are going to

45:16

look out for you and no one's going

45:18

to take it to a level that they

45:20

wouldn't want to be inflicted on them theoretically. Yeah,

45:22

but you know, and then they're like theoretically, I

45:24

mean, with the experience that we started to

45:26

see in the mid 80s in Los Angeles,

45:29

a lot of hyper violence, a lot of people that

45:31

would show up at shows with more of the intention

45:34

of violence and not so much the intention of being

45:36

a fan, which is

45:38

exactly what happened to Wagner.

45:41

You know, people started to show

45:43

up to be violent. And

45:46

that Mike and I have a very similar

45:48

story, like we were at one of the

45:50

same shows, the music machine in West Los

45:52

Angeles to see suicidal. And

45:54

both of us had really

45:56

violent experiences separately.

46:00

And we both were like, we're out of here, we're moving to San

46:02

Francisco, which is considered more

46:04

of a less, you know

46:06

what I mean, more inclusive kind of scene,

46:09

different expressions like outside of that

46:11

expression. And we both went to

46:13

San Francisco State. I tried,

46:15

I dropped out. He was able to get through

46:17

it. Well, yeah, and it feels

46:19

like that happened to, there's like a fleeing

46:22

that kind of happens out of that scene at a certain

46:24

point, because it just does get like people are getting, it's

46:28

almost like separate violence. I don't know. I

46:31

don't mean to say this. I'm like talking like I

46:33

was there, but to me, it seems like it's separate violence

46:35

than the punk rock violence that we're talking about. Like

46:37

we're talking about gang involves

46:39

people in some cases, we're talking

46:41

about like you're saying people that

46:43

are coming there looking for violence. I'm sure people with mental

46:45

health issues that are coming there just to fuck people up.

46:49

Like it's not necessarily certainly

46:51

far, far from the first 100 like you talked about,

46:53

I think it's even far away

46:56

from just like the idea

46:58

of a mosh pit violence and going in there

47:00

and doing the worm or skank in or doing

47:03

the HV strut. Yeah, like

47:05

that's a different kind of

47:07

violence than people getting stabbed and

47:10

horrific. Yeah. And

47:12

it's interesting to think about

47:14

like a criminal

47:16

element that starting to like

47:19

move through the scene also,

47:21

particularly like shows and laundering

47:23

drug money and other kind

47:26

of like where I guess

47:29

it's just the kind of thing that shows up. And like

47:31

it was the same thing in Austria

47:33

and Germany in the late, what

47:36

became Austria and Germany in the late 1800s and

47:38

people started leaving to go to France. You

47:40

know, they started leaving to go to Switzerland

47:42

and it's kind of that same migration, that

47:45

same idea. And then in like France, you're

47:47

like noisy outsiders

47:49

of the late 1800s would have

47:51

been like Eric Satie and then like the

47:53

Dadaist movement and all these people that came

47:55

in that were like,

47:58

no, art is about tearing up. newspapers and putting

48:00

it on canvas, you know, like, or, you

48:03

know, I mean, like, like,

48:05

no, it's not about a mainstream salon,

48:08

no, you know, where people would officially

48:10

have to go to be artists or

48:12

schools. It was like, no, you know,

48:14

that's all, you know, like,

48:16

not to say that this is like, oh,

48:18

it's all worth it. But at the same

48:20

time, it does inspire and create, like you're

48:23

saying other forms of art or makes people

48:25

go different directions. Here talked about

48:27

I guess, most famously in punk in DC, where

48:29

you have that revolution summer where people have a

48:31

reaction to how violent the thing the scene got

48:33

and start taking the music in a different direction.

48:35

And you certainly see another scenes

48:38

kind of play out ABC, no Rio in New

48:41

York. And it feels like once

48:43

again, this is kind of part of that natural lifecycle of

48:45

a scene where you get to an age where

48:47

you're like, why am I doing this or this is

48:49

not what I signed up for and you got to

48:51

figure out what's next. Right.

48:53

Or you just have to leave these late 80s.

48:55

Sweet hardcore guys

48:59

that were like, maybe

49:02

like 1920 21, you know, like, I don't know,

49:07

judge and underdog and

49:09

yes, they're coming out and playing

49:12

shows and excited for excited

49:15

for these shows. And

49:17

then this barrage of

49:20

like people show up that they don't

49:22

know who they are that are just

49:24

enacting violence, certain opinions about race and

49:26

culture, like making

49:28

sure they exclude other people.

49:31

And these bands are just like,

49:34

what's, what's happening? Like, why is this

49:36

happening? And

49:38

I feel like that's once again, like you

49:40

have, well, I think Danita talked about when she was on

49:42

the show, like that's there's, that's the rise

49:45

of sort of LA having this more arty punk

49:47

scene and people at the anti club and taking

49:50

it in a different direction, like going to

49:52

trying to get away from whatever the other

49:54

shit is that's happening. And it

49:57

is and it does

49:59

like It never goes away though, right

50:01

and it just sort of gets ready for this

50:03

next sort of huge flare-up that kind of happens

50:06

in Los Angeles Right

50:09

because we can't talk about like simultaneously We

50:12

were talking about Savage Republic and we were

50:15

doing people going out to the desert and

50:17

blowing stuff up which again another problem please

50:22

Whatever, you know, but you

50:24

know having these other experiences that aren't out

50:26

that are outside of that that might be

50:29

slightly more inclusive, you know

50:32

another art punk scenes and Well,

50:35

you brought up Savage Republic your scene coming

50:37

up. Yeah, absolutely And like and that's and

50:39

I think like you said earlier. It's not

50:41

like this stuff is New

50:44

to punk rock like women in punk rock

50:46

isn't something that's that's new

50:48

when riot girl Happens

50:51

like like the media seems to kind of

50:53

portray it like or or queer

50:55

people in punk rock like going back to Jane County's

50:58

like the first ever New York punk rocker

51:00

and She's

51:02

like it what 74. She's

51:04

doing these recordings like trouble at the cup

51:06

and stuff like she's not trouble the cup

51:10

Whatever the records called. Sorry, but she's like no

51:12

no no there were tons of women Breaking

51:15

it off in the late 70s in New

51:17

York or in urban areas. I mean, we're

51:19

not shy. We're not short of that I think

51:22

that we like look at the

51:24

lineages of growth right because we're human beings and

51:26

we need to simplify What's happening?

51:28

So it's very hard to hold the space

51:30

that there were multiple scenes happening at the same

51:32

time That would move forward to

51:34

in to be an influence right? I mean when

51:37

I went to shows in 80 81 there

51:41

was no lack of Comradery

51:43

among women there were plenty of

51:46

bands plenty of artists, you know

51:49

Joanna went one of my favorite artists

51:51

to talk about of all times Performance

51:53

artists that would come into the punk

51:55

clubs and do like hit a

51:57

tape recorder and do these extraordinary

52:00

extraordinary performances. But one

52:02

of the things that like to think about

52:04

in that time, we're talking late

52:07

70s or early 80s, I think

52:09

that the guys were more out to be like,

52:11

I love this lifestyle and I want to figure

52:14

out how I can capitalize on it. So

52:16

we need to make t-shirts, books, video,

52:18

and records where the women were more

52:21

like, I love this moment and this

52:23

when this moment ends it ends. So

52:25

now we don't have a lot of

52:27

documentation or representation of tangible

52:29

stuff that they did, you know, we

52:32

only have the memories of what they

52:34

did. And that's no one wants that

52:36

because how are you going to sell

52:38

it? You can't sell it. So it

52:40

becomes not as important. Those women's

52:42

expressions become not as important. I

52:45

think Yoko Ono faced that like when we

52:47

finally get to see like, people are releasing

52:49

video of her performances from the fucking 70s.

52:54

You know what I mean? You're just

52:56

like, whoa, how is this happening? This

52:59

is these amazing performances and

53:01

we're only getting them now. Yeah,

53:04

I feel like well, I understand. Like I think

53:06

we'll castration squad. That's another band that I had

53:09

no real idea about

53:11

till doing this podcast and now researching and finding out

53:13

what they're they played a lot of shows. They were

53:15

like, they played a lot of shows.

53:17

They were really supporters of the scene.

53:19

They were also promoters of

53:21

the scene. They were flyer makers.

53:23

They were artists. And in that

53:26

band was Tracy, who is also

53:28

in Red Cross. Shannon,

53:30

who I don't know how many other

53:33

I think her focus was castration squad. And

53:36

then I

53:38

was bag was in it for a second to really was

53:40

not in it for a second. She was in it

53:42

for a while, you know, and

53:44

then Patricia Morrison, who Patricia bag,

53:46

I think also moved in and

53:49

out. But she, you know, went

53:51

into Gun Club,

53:53

who are a great band. I always want to,

53:55

you know, propped them up for bands that were

53:57

like, Hey, we're punk rock, but doing something kind

53:59

of. of extraordinary, no one's gonna get it

54:01

and we're never gonna be appreciated. And then she

54:04

went on, you know, to be in the damned.

54:06

And Sis is a mercy too, her journey through punk

54:09

is wild. Like it's, it's,

54:11

but and I wasn't someone from the

54:13

Pandora's also in Castration Squad 2 or

54:15

something or? I

54:18

have photographed Castration Squad, they're one of my

54:21

favorite bands with Alice, you know, with Patricia

54:24

might have just been on stage. You

54:26

know, Christian Death, you know, they were

54:29

like a band, but they

54:31

also had, they were performance. So

54:33

a lot of people were on stage.

54:35

Again, who's the audience? Who's the performer?

54:39

You know, they

54:41

had Eva O from the

54:43

Speed Queens and Eva O was very much

54:45

like a forefront in the scene with,

54:50

yeah. Well, the screamers too, the screamers

54:52

are like another band that there's no

54:54

official recordings ever, but they might

54:56

be the most important first wave Los Angeles

54:58

band from what people describe them as and

55:00

just, yeah, certainly the stuff that has come

55:03

out is hugely influential and that's with

55:05

nothing official. They were also

55:08

one of the first bands that really from LA

55:10

from the scene, so I was still little,

55:12

but they would talk, you know,

55:14

they'd be in the media talking

55:16

about, you know, touring. Like,

55:19

you know, you can tour from that,

55:22

you know what I mean? And like

55:24

this expression and dance and performance. And

55:27

again, you know, how are we going

55:29

to capitalize on it? We're really about into the sweaty show. I

55:33

find like you're into, but you're into,

55:35

they were into, you know, so then there wasn't

55:37

always, I think what is it, what is of

55:39

the screamers? There's a demo and like maybe target video. Well,

55:42

I think now people have taken all the

55:44

bootleg demos that have been circulating. They might

55:46

be one of the most bootleg punk bands

55:49

ever. Like I can think of at least five

55:51

bootlegs I have in my collection. Like they've, but

55:54

I think now it's been officially released. There's also, I think

55:57

a target video of like

55:59

a TV. kind of performance of them playing on

56:01

a sound stage that was like officially released at some point.

56:04

But that's it, right? Like it's very under-documented.

56:07

I think that's the thing that

56:09

I've also found fascinating is like, what

56:12

writes the history? Where certain bands

56:15

are talking about... Who writes history?

56:17

Yeah, exactly. Like I think there's...Punk is better

56:19

because there's so many primary sources and zines

56:22

that you can kind of go back to

56:24

and get a better picture than

56:26

what records are out there. But like years

56:29

after the fact, the records you gravitate to only to find

56:31

out like, no, they weren't really part of the scene.

56:33

They were like a periphery

56:35

band at best and

56:37

it wasn't that. It

56:40

wasn't that. It was this band that never recorded anything. Right,

56:43

right, right. Like

56:46

some bands. Yeah, yeah,

56:48

yeah. Like who gets to write the history?

56:50

We're talking about, you know, living in a

56:52

society based on capital. Being able to raise

56:54

the money to be able to create the

56:56

document, right? Create

56:58

the zine, create the recording, create

57:00

the t-shirt. Well,

57:03

I think Punk is the place where that

57:05

stuff became...and I think technology reached that point, but

57:07

that became accessible to people with not necessarily as

57:09

much means because you can make a tape, you

57:12

could photocopy your zine, you didn't have to publish

57:14

a magazine anymore. And I think that

57:18

didn't level the playing field completely, but certainly brought

57:20

it down to a much more accessible level. And

57:22

certainly why kids, I guess, produced a lot of

57:24

the media back then. Right,

57:27

right, right. The cassette tape. Did

57:29

a record a tape? Yeah,

57:32

there's recordings, yeah. What

57:35

was the vibe of that band? Like is

57:37

it like Savage Republic? Or like obviously that's

57:39

later in their academic careers, I imagine. Right.

57:41

So when I

57:43

had some friends who later...Ethan

57:45

Port who later went on to

57:47

be in Savage Republic and local

57:52

West LA band who's also

57:54

associated with the RIMPest. I mean, there were a couple

57:56

like deep demo

57:59

only. bands

58:02

that were associated. We had

58:04

a record store in West Los Angeles called Rhino

58:06

Records, which was on Westwood Boulevard. So we were

58:09

kind of like on top of it. And later

58:11

on how to store called Texas Records, West LA

58:13

was still considered like a place you could go

58:15

to live at the

58:17

time, be able to start a record store, be able

58:19

to start an art gallery. We had a coffee shop

58:21

called Radion. That was one of the kind of the

58:23

first fifties themed kitschy

58:25

weirdo kind of proto punk

58:27

coffee shops also. So we had

58:30

these places to go meet, but

58:32

we also had UCLA and

58:34

UCLA art department. So

58:37

kind of came out of that. I was 14 or 15 when

58:40

I was in, but the really, the idea was

58:42

to go into parking structures, attract

58:45

audience, just based on

58:47

whoever was in the parking structure at

58:49

the time and play music that was

58:51

unwritten, you know, impromptu

58:55

sounds, you know, create the sounds

58:57

of industrial automobile

59:00

stuff. I mean, Kraftwerk

59:02

is one of my all time favorite

59:05

bands, really. It's like a very

59:07

natural, like, you know,

59:10

the idea that you didn't have to sit down

59:12

to learn guitar or learn music was an

59:14

entry point for me into performance

59:18

and music. I mean, the

59:20

only time I really ever really, really, really

59:22

had to sit down and learn songs. I

59:24

was in a band with Courtney Love and

59:26

Capa Jelen. Courtney Love went on to Hole and then married

59:28

Kurt Cobain and Capa Jelen,

59:30

who went on to a band called Babes in

59:33

Toyland, all kind of late

59:35

80s, 90s bands. You

59:38

know, in the discussions of

59:40

being in a band where, you know,

59:42

I came from hardcore and loved Black

59:44

Flag, but I also at the same

59:46

time, you know, loved Kraftwerk

59:48

and at the same time, loved the idea

59:50

of like, why would we write a song?

59:54

Everybody writes songs. Why would we do

59:56

that? You know, like, I mean, and I

59:58

look back a little me, little me was

1:00:00

a genius, like a genius

1:00:02

about that stuff. And it

1:00:04

really wasn't until like I listened

1:00:07

to Caponell and songwriting and Courtney's lyrics that

1:00:09

I was really like, I guess

1:00:11

there is something to it, you know, there is

1:00:13

something to maybe learning it as a craft, because

1:00:16

both of those two

1:00:19

ladies were amazing

1:00:21

at the craft of

1:00:23

storytelling, the craft of

1:00:25

expression, like being able to create

1:00:28

lyrical stories that made sense

1:00:31

and music that was under it that

1:00:34

like supported those stories. And I was

1:00:36

like, and they all needed a

1:00:38

bass player. Bass sucks. Great

1:00:41

rock bass. It's just like I

1:00:44

play it like I go get ready even to this

1:00:46

day in L7, I'm just like, bass,

1:00:48

I have to go play bass. Do

1:00:50

you know what I mean? Like, basic, it's in

1:00:53

the name. Like

1:00:56

bass is so much more interesting

1:00:58

in other genres. It

1:01:02

does play a role though in punk because it allows

1:01:04

the guitar to not have to be, I

1:01:06

guess, as rhythmic too, right? Like the bass

1:01:09

is such a, I don't know, I feel

1:01:11

like Don't defend the bass. No, I feel

1:01:13

bad. Not in punk, there's other places to

1:01:15

defend the bass. Okay, not in punk. Because

1:01:18

remember what I was talking about about my

1:01:20

early influences? Yeah. You

1:01:22

know, unless it's just someone

1:01:24

playing guitar, you know,

1:01:26

we're talking about the rhythm of bass

1:01:29

driving that, you know,

1:01:31

that sonically that's driving with vocals on

1:01:33

top. Guitar is just like a little

1:01:35

thing that pops in once in a

1:01:37

while. Yeah. Well, I've been like,

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it was great for me having some of these

1:02:49

vegan meals in the house because there was no

1:02:52

stress for me. There was no cooking, no cleanup

1:02:54

after I'd made food for the kids. I

1:02:57

could just pop down, grab one of these, and

1:02:59

it's ready in two minutes. Or if the kids were

1:03:01

hungry, I'd send them down and get one

1:03:04

of the meat options, and once

1:03:06

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1:03:08

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1:03:10

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1:03:34

I get the kids on the podcast, but

1:03:36

they don't feel like coming on to do

1:03:38

the ads. I

1:03:41

got to pay them. Oh my God, I got to message. Hey,

1:03:47

Mel. Brian here. I got to work from

1:03:49

home today because the whole family caught a

1:03:51

nasty- Daddy! Hey, Mikey! If you're gonna puke,

1:03:53

find the popcorn bowl! But my availability is

1:03:55

110%. Coincidentally, so

1:03:57

is my fever. Kidding. Melon's

1:04:00

so cold but hot. Uh, but I'm gonna get you

1:04:02

that budget. Just as soon as- My-K!

1:04:04

Popcorn Bowl! Press 1. To

1:04:06

use Instacart and get your family's sick day

1:04:09

essentials delivered in as fast as 30 minutes,

1:04:11

press 2 to keep working. Do not press

1:04:13

2. Just use Instacart, Brian. Being influenced

1:04:15

by Black Flag, like- I grew up on the Meters. I

1:04:18

grew up on the Meters. I mean, like, those were the songs- like,

1:04:20

when I was like, I have to learn songs, I learned

1:04:22

meter songs. You know, like,

1:04:24

bass- they were bass-driven songs. I

1:04:27

feel bad for Dee Dee now and Chuck from Black

1:04:29

Flag. I feel like they should have finished their roles

1:04:31

in these days. I know. I mean, look, it's like,

1:04:34

honestly, like, Dee Dee's great,

1:04:36

but he's a vibe. He's Dee

1:04:38

Dee. Yeah. Yeah. It isn't

1:04:41

about the- it's

1:04:43

not really about the point- like, I'm sorry.

1:04:47

And, you know, let's just have another conversation.

1:04:49

I think that people forget that, like, you

1:04:52

know, Kira Rossler in Black Flag

1:04:54

brought Black Flag to the next level. And

1:04:57

she was in Black Flag very early on. You're

1:04:59

the music nerd. When did she join Black Flag,

1:05:01

like, 82 or something? 83,

1:05:04

84? Yeah, like,

1:05:06

a major portion of Black Flag, you

1:05:09

know, they were a mixed band.

1:05:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And,

1:05:13

well, we can't- the Rossler family in general, I

1:05:16

feel like her and her brother are both like,

1:05:19

all those, like, twisted roots and tater

1:05:21

tots, I think, was- just

1:05:23

so much fascinating stuff in that. Well, he

1:05:25

was in the scrimmers. You know that, right? Paul Rossler was in the

1:05:28

scrimmers. That's right. He's in the scrimmers too, of course. Right. So, yeah,

1:05:30

I have, like, really great- okay. I know. I

1:05:32

mean, look, it's like, honestly, like,

1:05:34

Dee Dee's great, but he's

1:05:37

a vibe. He's Dee Dee. Yeah.

1:05:39

Yeah. It isn't about the-

1:05:42

it's not really about the point- like, I'm

1:05:44

sorry. And, you

1:05:47

know, let's just have another conversation. I think

1:05:49

that people forget that, like, you

1:05:51

know, Kira Rossler in Black Flag

1:05:54

brought Black Flag to the next level. And

1:05:57

she was in Black Flag very early on. You're the music

1:05:59

nerd. When did you- she joined by five or

1:06:01

82 or something? Is it 83, 84? Yeah.

1:06:06

Like a major portion of Black Flag,

1:06:08

you know, they were a mixed

1:06:10

band. And

1:06:13

while we can't, the Rosler family in general,

1:06:15

I feel like her and her brother are

1:06:17

both like, uh, all those

1:06:19

like twisted roots and tater

1:06:22

tots, I think was, uh, there's just so much fascinating

1:06:24

stuff in that. Well, he was in

1:06:26

the scrimmers. You know that, right? Paul Rosler. That's right. He's

1:06:28

in the streamers too, of course. So yeah, I

1:06:30

have like really great. Okay. So like as

1:06:32

a musician, I'm trying to be a good

1:06:34

musician. I try to believe that if you're

1:06:36

good at anything you do, you educate yourself

1:06:39

in it, like you always go with an open

1:06:41

mind and like revisit and

1:06:43

take, um, take music lessons and

1:06:46

you know, John, that Greg Hudson from the circle

1:06:48

jerks really early on when I

1:06:50

was like, why do we need to practice or play

1:06:52

or do anything like this? Greg Hudson looked at me

1:06:54

and he goes, I take

1:06:56

at least 20 music lessons a year. At

1:06:59

least. And I'm like, I'm

1:07:01

doing the math, right? I'm doing the math. I'm like

1:07:05

the cost, like everything that the time, the cost, like who

1:07:07

does he go to? But I've really taken

1:07:09

that to heart and I try to do as

1:07:11

many music lessons as I can a year, uh,

1:07:14

and Paul Rossler is one of my, is my piano

1:07:17

teacher. Oh, that's awesome. Oh,

1:07:19

that's real. I know I'm talking about boiled, privileged,

1:07:23

uh, I'm white

1:07:26

man in it. I'm

1:07:29

just like, who can give

1:07:31

me, and then, you know, he's an incredible

1:07:33

musician. Like not like he was in

1:07:35

the screamers, but musicality

1:07:38

is incredible. Oh,

1:07:40

absolutely. Well, you brought up sugar baby doll

1:07:43

and we got, I gotta ask you about

1:07:45

that band because like the fact that the

1:07:47

three of you going on to what you did

1:07:49

in music, we're all in a band together to me is just

1:07:51

so awesome. Isn't

1:07:54

it awesome? It's cool. It's so sick.

1:07:56

It's just like once again, it's,

1:07:59

it's further. Testimony to punk rock

1:08:01

being this place which brings people together

1:08:04

That have this drive that wind up

1:08:06

doing things later in life and it's

1:08:09

yeah So so what was

1:08:11

the because I've heard the recordings that came

1:08:13

later when they became I think pagan babies

1:08:16

And it's kind of dream poppy vibe was that

1:08:18

was it was like early on when you were

1:08:20

playing with them So

1:08:27

No, I think that it was a little bit more

1:08:31

But you know, I think that the dream

1:08:33

poppy vibe was where they were going and in

1:08:37

in the moment of like 1986

1:08:42

you know, I had gone to do

1:08:44

some time in Europe and You

1:08:48

know that you know I stayed in Amsterdam

1:08:50

and that's where I met guys that later would

1:08:52

be in the obsessed and a lot of like

1:08:54

more of like the squatter punk expressions of the

1:08:56

late 80s and and

1:09:00

Ghee who was in the obsessed

1:09:02

and still runs labels to this

1:09:04

day was just like, you know

1:09:06

You got to go play harder music like

1:09:08

these gals are great. Like I played him

1:09:11

the demo and he's like, no, this is good but

1:09:13

it its trajectory is commercial and

1:09:17

You know, I had lots of conversations about

1:09:20

wanting to work on the outside I

1:09:22

you know, I felt like my I

1:09:24

was in sugar babylon for as a

1:09:26

support role You know I

1:09:28

sometimes will end up being the glue in a

1:09:30

band or the rudder that keeps the

1:09:32

crazy people stable And when I say crazy

1:09:35

I'm just I'm saying like the people

1:09:37

with a lot of ideas that you know

1:09:39

just like really help with follow-through and help

1:09:41

with Taking like somebody

1:09:43

has an idea for a song and like

1:09:45

asking them Well, where where does this song

1:09:47

gonna live in a year if it's on stage

1:09:50

then we need to move in that direction You

1:09:52

know if it's on recording we need to move

1:09:54

in that direction You know,

1:09:56

and he was just like, you know, and also there were drug

1:09:58

problems in the band and You

1:10:00

know there was like so there was personal stuff going

1:10:02

on. I mean a lot of that You know I

1:10:04

always say with Courtney and with Kat You

1:10:07

know these were and myself because I was

1:10:10

using at the same time But I love the idea

1:10:12

that I got to be really out of body with

1:10:14

it You know there were no

1:10:16

words to describe how we were how

1:10:18

we thought about things how we

1:10:20

experienced The world

1:10:22

emotionally or how we experienced like this

1:10:25

stuff So it came out really like the

1:10:27

best you can call us were like bitches

1:10:29

are difficult You know and you

1:10:31

know so a lot of self medication came

1:10:33

in and um Courtney's

1:10:35

loves writing a book right now I'm just

1:10:37

praying that she covers this stuff because I think

1:10:39

it's going to be like so valuable instead

1:10:41

of just the you know what I mean obvious

1:10:45

stuff that the pop culture

1:10:47

narrative canon that people want to hear and

1:10:50

Like create the villain of her that they need to

1:10:53

be able to explain what happens you know I hope

1:10:55

that she can really talk about you

1:10:57

know that experience of what it's like

1:10:59

maybe How

1:11:01

ADHD or Asperger's or like mental

1:11:03

health challenges like in that era you

1:11:06

know it comes out and like expression

1:11:09

music and whatnot Yeah,

1:11:13

so that was what was happening so then I

1:11:15

was just like at the same time You know

1:11:17

people were telling me there's a band in L7

1:11:19

in La they're like meat and potatoes

1:11:21

rock band You know they're

1:11:23

doing You know garage,

1:11:26

but in like a really interesting way And

1:11:29

you know that just ended up kind of being what I

1:11:31

wanted to do is I came home Packed

1:11:33

my stuff up from San Francisco and moved back

1:11:36

down to LA. It's like I'm here well

1:11:40

You know you brought it up there too, which the The

1:11:44

idea of people like self-medicate especially ADHD, and

1:11:46

I think now we're moving into a period

1:11:49

I Think of one of the

1:11:51

positive things from social media that I found how many people? Self-diagnosed

1:11:53

for ADHD and then went and got an

1:11:56

actual diagnosis after realizing they had it because

1:11:58

they saw a tick-tock video about it

1:12:00

or something. I feel like

1:12:02

that is so many

1:12:05

people I know that wound up

1:12:08

getting into drugs and fucking up on drugs. That

1:12:12

is probably something. Being a whole, not

1:12:14

having those academic successes in

1:12:16

a system that doesn't accommodate

1:12:18

you to begin with. I

1:12:20

feel like I was very much like when

1:12:22

I went to the middle school, which for

1:12:24

the US is like your, I don't know,

1:12:28

seventh grade, you're sort of

1:12:30

13 to 16 age range.

1:12:32

I was in, you know, very specifically

1:12:34

in a school that wanted

1:12:36

to make sure that working-class people

1:12:38

were successful. So you had like

1:12:41

choices between like kind of emphasizing

1:12:44

auto mechanics, hairdressing, and typing, right?

1:12:46

Like those were kind of like these things that they

1:12:49

were kind of pushing you to. And if

1:12:51

you showed any like academic skills,

1:12:53

you were popped out of the school immediately and put in

1:12:55

a different program. And I was like,

1:12:57

please let me be in the science program.

1:12:59

Don't leave me with all of these horrible

1:13:01

knuckleheads. Like the kid, like I show up

1:13:03

at school with red hair and people just

1:13:05

throw apples at me from afar.

1:13:08

And then they all ended up in bands

1:13:10

like Beowulf and Neighborhood Watch. Later

1:13:14

having to apologize for throwing apples

1:13:16

at me for having red hair.

1:13:18

But it was like, you know,

1:13:21

physical, you

1:13:23

know, going to school was like a physical danger

1:13:25

and schools weren't set up to like figure

1:13:27

out how to moderate that. And it's really please

1:13:29

and like I couldn't get into AP science

1:13:31

because I went dissect a frog. Hmm.

1:13:35

That's right. I could have been a doctor, fuckers.

1:13:37

I could have been a doctor right now. Yeah.

1:13:40

Well that's the thing I like. I didn't have a podcast.

1:13:42

I'd be making that 120K

1:13:45

a year solving ADHD. But no. But

1:13:48

you wouldn't have made me want to be in

1:13:50

a punk band. When I say solving, I mean

1:13:52

not solving. No, I know. You're treating

1:13:55

it better. But I guess I, you know what? And then

1:13:57

it wouldn't be a generation of people like me involved in

1:13:59

the this music if you hadn't done this thing. So you continue

1:14:01

the cycle. Yeah, and then what would the world be like? It's

1:14:05

very self-important. But

1:14:08

I feel like you're right there because it

1:14:10

is amazing how,

1:14:13

and I'm

1:14:16

jumping all over the place with this, I guess, in my head,

1:14:18

but isn't it amazing

1:14:20

that there was this thing that you could

1:14:22

kind of go into and express yourself with

1:14:24

photography because school sounds like it was not

1:14:26

the place that was accommodating to you and

1:14:28

certainly wasn't serving your

1:14:30

creative interest. But then punk

1:14:33

is someplace where you could

1:14:35

kind of go and kind of create your own world. And I'm

1:14:37

idealizing it. I think it gets more like this as time kind

1:14:39

of goes on and the time you're getting into it. I know,

1:14:41

but we glorify and

1:14:44

glamorize art that has been created

1:14:46

out of trauma. What are

1:14:48

we gonna do with that when we treat the

1:14:50

trauma? Are we not gonna have punk? Are we

1:14:52

not gonna have artistic expression? Are we not gonna

1:14:55

have people that are gonna challenge the system? No,

1:14:58

we are, but

1:15:00

it's a mixed bag and it's nuanced

1:15:02

and it's troubling and it should be.

1:15:05

Well, I feel like you're right a hundred percent.

1:15:07

Like anytime you write a song, you're like making

1:15:09

money off your trauma. Are there anytime you're like

1:15:12

truly opening yourself up and not

1:15:14

being a character? Like you're not,

1:15:18

but it's costing a little bit of your

1:15:20

soul in a way. And

1:15:23

there's plenty of examples of people that

1:15:25

this thing ate up alive

1:15:27

and we're still listening to the songs that

1:15:30

they wrote in trauma and celebrating them. And it goes

1:15:32

back to what you're saying, like not wanting to glamorize

1:15:34

it. There's

1:15:37

this really good documentary. I can't remember it

1:15:39

right now, but it's really about this idea

1:15:42

of the rock star becomes the new

1:15:44

sacrificial. And

1:15:46

it was in the seventies. It's

1:15:48

like called the church of rock or something. And

1:15:52

it's pretty cool. So

1:15:54

it's not our generation. It's like kind

1:15:56

of speaking before that the rock

1:15:58

star becomes the new generation. location

1:16:00

of trauma for culture and ultimately

1:16:02

they need to die at 27. That's fascinating.

1:16:06

And it's sacrificed, right? Yeah. And

1:16:08

if it's not and I made it up that

1:16:11

it's mine. You make it copyrighted. I

1:16:13

got it. There's a verbal

1:16:15

copyright because it

1:16:17

is I think that Pete Townsend says

1:16:19

it in the history of time

1:16:22

life history of rock and roll music punk

1:16:24

episode where he's like you

1:16:26

know you realize rock and rolls of fire and it's

1:16:29

really romantic because there's a sort of fire burning

1:16:31

there and then you realize it's fueling the fires

1:16:33

bodies. And it is

1:16:36

it does it happens time and time again and then

1:16:39

people are worth money and

1:16:41

death and it's exploited further

1:16:43

and it just has one

1:16:45

of the great tragedies I guess is like how

1:16:48

much of this music cost people their

1:16:50

lives. And art. And

1:16:53

art. Yeah. Yeah. I think

1:16:55

in the art world right now in you

1:16:57

know modern and contemporary art there's like a

1:17:00

lot of conversation about like who gets to

1:17:02

own it and it is as an asset

1:17:04

right. You know we always make this joke

1:17:06

walk through the Broad Museum in Los Angeles,

1:17:08

Long Way. Oh yeah we're walking through Jay

1:17:11

Z's wallet right now. You know. Stock

1:17:13

portfolio. This is what the new stock

1:17:15

portfolio looks like. But in

1:17:17

a way it's like then being

1:17:20

able to create art not necessarily

1:17:22

with that trauma and then in

1:17:24

recent years like in the lessons

1:17:26

COVID it's really been about Basquiat

1:17:28

and artists that did experience the

1:17:30

trauma and died become

1:17:33

the collector the collectible again and I'm like

1:17:36

why does this just cycle back and forth

1:17:38

you know and the high value. And it's

1:17:41

also like the idea of someone who

1:17:43

creates something in life in

1:17:46

death taking on another life where they have no

1:17:48

ownership of this thing that was intensely personal that

1:17:50

they made and I guess you lose ownership once

1:17:53

you sell it out into the world and this

1:17:55

can be extended to music but just how many

1:17:57

people you look at what they've done.

1:18:00

and it's like would they be happy with what

1:18:02

they've done with their legacy? Would they have wanted

1:18:04

it to be used in this way? And yeah,

1:18:07

there's certainly people that are now in, there's

1:18:10

a big exhibit that came through

1:18:12

here of Keith

1:18:15

Haring. Keith Haring. Yeah, yeah,

1:18:17

we had that in LA. Exactly. And my

1:18:20

kids went to it and they came home

1:18:22

and they were talking about like Keith Haring

1:18:24

art and how much it sells

1:18:27

for now in this idea. And it's

1:18:29

so much against what Keith Haring kind of

1:18:32

talked about. And obviously he was very commercial

1:18:34

and commercialized his work. But

1:18:37

at the same time, he was also someone that

1:18:39

I think had a lot of populist values in

1:18:41

doing so. And yeah, the

1:18:43

show's called Everyone, Anyone Can Do It, right? Yeah,

1:18:46

I think so. That must be, I didn't get a chance

1:18:48

to go to it. I went to one the last time

1:18:50

they toured Keith Haring way back when, but I think it

1:18:52

was a little more, I remember it was a little more

1:18:54

adult themed than I think this one is. I think this

1:18:57

one's a little more. Yeah, for anyone who's listening who doesn't

1:18:59

know Keith Haring, he came up out of the New York

1:19:01

scene in that late 70s period that

1:19:03

we talk about all of these proto-punk

1:19:05

bands coming out of very

1:19:07

much a part of the mix between what

1:19:10

they call uptown culture and downtown

1:19:13

culture, which was like a synchronization

1:19:15

between black culture and white culture

1:19:17

coming together for punk and

1:19:19

art, which was immediately slapped out

1:19:21

of the culture, like as fast

1:19:23

as it could. But hip hop

1:19:26

and later gangster rap and stuff

1:19:28

was kind of born out of

1:19:30

that. Keith Haring straddled it through

1:19:32

an art expression of really early

1:19:35

graffiti artists, right? That were like

1:19:37

the kind of ones that would

1:19:39

exchange, more easily exchange culture.

1:19:41

But all of these guys were

1:19:43

in bands together and they all

1:19:45

played music together, Basquiat and Haring. And

1:19:48

they all came out of this, like, so it

1:19:50

wasn't really, it was this kind

1:19:52

of idea of wanting to bring together these

1:19:54

expressions in punk rock, that it wasn't just

1:19:56

about music the way we think of it

1:19:58

now, but it was about a lot of stuff. stuff coming

1:20:00

together and reforming to create

1:20:02

this movement. And then, you know,

1:20:04

Herring was gay. A lot

1:20:07

of his friends died and he and he was

1:20:10

a person living with HIV and then

1:20:12

eventually passed away from complications. So,

1:20:14

you know, his expressions and a lot

1:20:16

of his art are troubling about that.

1:20:18

But they've been taken into pop culture

1:20:20

and they're like, Look at these fun

1:20:23

drawings of this guy like crawling across the

1:20:25

floor. And it's like, And

1:20:28

I'm not an art historian, so I'm

1:20:30

not. I'm just a fan. Right. So

1:20:32

that story may not necessarily

1:20:34

be like accurate. It's just

1:20:36

my observation on information that's come

1:20:39

to me on it. And now we

1:20:41

have your kids going to the show and

1:20:43

looking at it and people collecting it and

1:20:45

selling it really high volume. The

1:20:47

interesting thing about his show is it's curated by

1:20:49

a friend of his. And

1:20:52

the interesting thing about the Basquiat show

1:20:54

is it's being curated by his family.

1:20:57

Basquiat's father was

1:21:00

very protective of his son's work

1:21:03

and was a businessman and

1:21:06

would only allow his work to be shown

1:21:08

if it was shown in the best possible

1:21:10

light. And now his family

1:21:12

has gotten the rights to it. The

1:21:14

father's passed away. So

1:21:17

they're showing Basquiat's work

1:21:19

only in arenas that they can control.

1:21:21

In Los Angeles, it was in a

1:21:23

bank lobby. So irony.

1:21:26

But they don't want to talk a

1:21:28

lot about his sexual preferences. They don't

1:21:31

want to talk about his gender preferences.

1:21:33

And they certainly don't want to talk

1:21:35

about his drug use. But they forefront

1:21:37

the art itself, but they don't

1:21:39

really forefront him. So I think that's a

1:21:43

thing in music that we are starting to going

1:21:45

to be look at too. We're the family of

1:21:48

Michael Jackson controlling Michael Jackson's

1:21:50

work as opposed to the corporation

1:21:52

that currently holds it.

1:21:56

Music is going to the corporations, but art

1:21:58

is going to the families. It's

1:22:01

also interesting when you kind of... And thought.

1:22:03

Well, I think when you see that happen

1:22:05

in music, you know, and you see this,

1:22:10

you know, like Kurt Cobain showing up as a

1:22:12

playable character in Guitar Hero. And

1:22:15

I never met him, but I cannot imagine

1:22:17

he would have been stoked about becoming a playable

1:22:19

character in a video game. We don't know. We

1:22:22

don't know. We don't know. We

1:22:24

don't know. But I... He wasn't

1:22:26

interesting and he wasn't outside of exploitation. He

1:22:28

signed to his record label. He knew what he was

1:22:31

doing. He brought that along. He

1:22:34

wanted mainstream success. That's what he

1:22:36

wanted. But yeah,

1:22:38

and I once again, I was not there and I

1:22:41

certainly didn't see it, but it feels like it was on

1:22:43

a lot of it was a... Is

1:22:46

this it kind of environment too, where

1:22:48

this is like you get this thing that

1:22:51

you wanted. And

1:22:53

especially with punk rock, it feels like this

1:22:55

is this thing that we have this guilt

1:22:59

that's like artificial. And that's the thing that like

1:23:01

I find fascinating is we... It

1:23:03

goes back to the very beginning of the conversation we were talking

1:23:05

about. These people that have

1:23:08

this adherence to these four letters that at

1:23:10

the end of the day, everyone's got a different

1:23:13

definition of, but yet

1:23:15

they have so much power over

1:23:17

us. Like certainly power over me that

1:23:19

I'm wasting most of my life talking

1:23:21

to people about it. But it's still

1:23:23

this like weird thing. It's

1:23:26

like a religion because it's arbitrary in the same

1:23:28

way where it's seemingly arbitrary. I don't mean to

1:23:30

diminish people's faith, but like

1:23:33

you could believe in any number of things and

1:23:35

we just happen to believe in punk,

1:23:37

which is like, what is it?

1:23:40

Yeah, it's so much like that Protestant

1:23:42

rebellion, right? Like we don't know necessarily

1:23:44

what it means to be... And

1:23:47

I'm not a Christian, but we don't... And

1:23:49

I'm just an observer of humans, right?

1:23:51

And how humans organize themselves. So

1:23:55

there's all these ways that you express Protestantism,

1:23:57

especially in the United States, like all these

1:23:59

different ways. but the one thing we know is we're not

1:24:01

Catholic. Yeah, we're defiant. And

1:24:04

I guess that with punks, that's the thing. And when I

1:24:06

say we, I'm not including myself. No, I definitely,

1:24:08

you're right. That's 100%. And I

1:24:10

think that's the thing with Canadian. What

1:24:13

defines being Canadian is like, DOA

1:24:16

Drake and Degrassi, the three Ds, and

1:24:18

not being American. Like, those are what

1:24:20

we can cling to as Canadian identity.

1:24:23

Right, right, right. Well, yeah, I

1:24:26

mean, British identity was, I mean, US

1:24:28

identity was started on we're not British, right?

1:24:30

And like, how to make that extra

1:24:32

over the top to show that's what's

1:24:35

happening. We're Puritans. We left

1:24:37

England, like our part, like a very

1:24:39

small trickle, left England because

1:24:41

they weren't religious enough. We

1:24:43

needed more rules about

1:24:47

how to behave. And

1:24:49

then it's funny because, and I

1:24:51

think it's probably better now, I wonder, I don't know,

1:24:53

maybe it's better now, but there's a certain

1:24:55

point where people are in direct

1:24:57

conflict with each other, much like religion, because

1:25:00

their definition of this little thing is different

1:25:02

than someone else's definition of this little thing.

1:25:05

And even though we're, you know,

1:25:08

the wart on the back of an ant,

1:25:10

culturally, we still find divisions within this community

1:25:12

to kind of like put around ourselves and

1:25:14

to say we're not like this person, we're

1:25:16

not like that person. It's fascinating.

1:25:19

It's like a real interesting thing to kind of

1:25:21

like study, I find. Oh my God,

1:25:23

well, yeah. That's,

1:25:26

you're in the conversation in the

1:25:28

influence punk and just being able to set back or

1:25:30

like just have a little bit of age or wisdom around it.

1:25:32

You start to look at it and go like, you

1:25:35

know, are we just enacting

1:25:37

a cultural

1:25:39

expression at large? Are

1:25:42

we just players in something

1:25:44

that was gonna happen in what's called

1:25:47

post-modernity and anti-structuralism? Are

1:25:49

the fancy, fancy, fancy pants words for

1:25:51

it? Like where we're just

1:25:53

breaking down everything that we knew

1:25:55

about, they call it grand narrative

1:25:57

and we're breaking it all down.

1:26:00

And then where is our identity in it? And

1:26:03

then all of a sudden we're thugs storming

1:26:05

the Capitol, right? Because all of a sudden

1:26:07

our identities are so broken down, we're

1:26:10

clinging to like identity

1:26:12

culture. Well, and it's,

1:26:15

you know, not to – well, not

1:26:17

to pin January 6 on punk rock because I

1:26:19

don't think anyone wants that to happen. But you

1:26:22

look at the roots of that thing. You look

1:26:24

at the Proud Boys. You look at Gavin McGinnis

1:26:26

from Vice. He was a kid in a basement

1:26:28

in Ottawa playing punk rock shows at one point.

1:26:31

And that was his entry point

1:26:33

to this whole thing too. It's the

1:26:35

negative side of do-it-yourself. You're

1:26:40

on every level. Right.

1:26:42

Right, right, right, right. Well, right. I

1:26:45

mean, yeah, but it's like it's not only

1:26:47

just like I think that like the one

1:26:49

thing – this gets

1:26:52

so nerd on this – this might be the part

1:26:54

where you need to edit. No.

1:27:00

You know, I feel I entered

1:27:02

punk rock under the guise of I wanted to

1:27:04

be in a community that cared. And

1:27:06

I want to live in a society that

1:27:08

cares about each other. Like that's my thinking.

1:27:11

And my thinking is like how could we not

1:27:13

live in a society that cares

1:27:15

about anyone who shows up? You

1:27:17

know, anyone that says I'm hungry,

1:27:19

I need help, I'm sick. How do we not live,

1:27:21

you know? And it's

1:27:25

interesting how other punk expressions are

1:27:27

not about that. They're about this very like

1:27:29

how am I going to get ahead? How am I

1:27:32

going to sell? How am I going to group these

1:27:34

people around me so that they work for

1:27:36

me to go do this thing? Or

1:27:38

do you know what I mean? And all

1:27:41

of these other ways. So it's like totally

1:27:44

interesting to look at

1:27:46

these movements in America

1:27:48

based on like kind of like conspiracy

1:27:51

belief, identity. They're

1:27:54

getting one on us. We need to break down the

1:27:56

system because didn't we want to break down the system

1:27:58

in punk rock because I didn't care enough. They want

1:28:00

to break down the system because it's something,

1:28:02

they're perceiving it as something draconian

1:28:05

and different and yet, maybe punk rock

1:28:07

did, you know, God

1:28:10

Save the Queen was kind of part of

1:28:12

that breaking down the colonialist system. Yeah,

1:28:15

I think punk rock is like you're looking at the

1:28:17

world and you can either be Joey or Johnny. You

1:28:20

can be one side of this thing or the other

1:28:23

side of this thing and believe

1:28:25

that it's a wonderful world

1:28:27

or... And

1:28:29

I actually had really good experience with Johnny, so I don't

1:28:31

mean to cut him down horribly, but certainly the stories

1:28:33

that you hear about Johnny, he

1:28:35

wasn't always the nicest person and certainly politically

1:28:37

didn't always align with the nicest people. And

1:28:41

I think that's baked into punk too. There is that side

1:28:43

of this thing where... Where's

1:28:45

the Dee Dee side? I guess that's

1:28:48

the other side of this thing. You're right, there is

1:28:50

a Dee Dee and there's also a Tommy side. There's

1:28:52

someone who likes it just for them to... And a

1:28:54

Marky, I think there's a Marky side too. There's a

1:28:56

Marky side, you're right. Someone that gets into it after

1:28:58

a little bit but brings something to

1:29:00

it and you're right, you're right, we can

1:29:02

just keep going on this. The

1:29:05

whole thing is remote. Okay, clearly

1:29:08

I'm either suffering from early stage

1:29:10

dementia or late stage syphilis. Or

1:29:14

the contact guy. Of the guy in the

1:29:17

Gimme Gimme's, he's so sweet. CJ.

1:29:20

CJ, there's a CJ side too. You're

1:29:22

right, 100%. Current

1:29:25

CJ side. There's CJ side. Yeah,

1:29:27

CJ was... I interviewed CJ

1:29:29

and unfortunately the episode got lost.

1:29:32

The recorder fucked up and it was gone. Did he cry?

1:29:35

I did because the amount of insight he gave

1:29:37

me into the Ramones and the way that band

1:29:40

worked was fascinating because

1:29:43

it is... Obviously, it's the foundation of so

1:29:45

much of this stuff but it's also just how

1:29:48

it functioned as a unit is... Oh my gosh.

1:29:51

Oh my gosh. I could watch many

1:29:53

documentaries about that because it is a

1:29:56

band where the band became

1:29:59

bigger than... the relationships between

1:30:01

the individuals involved in it.

1:30:03

Very early on, it seems. Like, there's

1:30:06

a real animosity, or not even an animosity, but

1:30:08

just like a real lack

1:30:10

of caring for certain people and between certain people

1:30:12

in that band, it seems. Interesting,

1:30:15

right? I got to ask. I

1:30:18

have sheets of questions that I meant to ask

1:30:20

you. OK.

1:30:22

I have a CJ story. I have a CJ story.

1:30:24

I will go on with you. I want to hear

1:30:27

the story. Absolutely. It's kind of personal. OK.

1:30:31

OK. He came up to me recently. We

1:30:33

played at a festival at the Gimme Gimme's. CJ,

1:30:36

I've never really met him before. He

1:30:39

was a really cute photo, somewhere on my social, of us

1:30:41

together. Because he's very handsome.

1:30:44

And he said, I want

1:30:47

to tell you, I have a daughter. And

1:30:49

my relationship with her has been difficult. But

1:30:52

she has come out to

1:30:54

be who she is. And I'm so proud of her.

1:30:57

And if it wasn't for bands like L7, I

1:30:59

don't know if that would be possible. That's

1:31:02

awesome. And

1:31:04

that's what we're talking about. The impact you've had is like.

1:31:06

And he cried. Well, that's immeasurable, right? Like the

1:31:09

impact on that, like to have that kind of

1:31:11

impact on. And there's countless people that

1:31:13

you've had that impact on. And it's. Yeah,

1:31:15

but no, they don't do it. Thank God you're not

1:31:17

a doctor curing ADHD or whatever. Because we would. But

1:31:20

check it out. Because my first thinking on it

1:31:23

is, oh, did she become the doctor? Right. Exactly.

1:31:27

You know, like that's my first thinking.

1:31:29

Like really, I mean, it's

1:31:31

nuanced. Because I have a lot of.

1:31:36

My concern would be more

1:31:38

influenced, not so much people's

1:31:40

like music or art expression, but in their ability.

1:31:43

And I don't hear a lot of that. Every

1:31:46

once in a while. Every once in a while, people

1:31:49

will say like, yeah, this happened. I

1:31:54

run the council at my housing development

1:31:56

because I listened to L7. But

1:32:03

I want to be honest, I want to let you in on a

1:32:05

little secret. I don't think I was ever going to be a doctor

1:32:07

at the end of the day, Jennifer. I think what you did is

1:32:09

give me somewhere to steer the

1:32:11

ship that was kind of directionless

1:32:14

in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of us

1:32:16

that wind up making this

1:32:18

music, it's because on a

1:32:21

certain level we have to. There's

1:32:23

like, I certainly meet people on this

1:32:26

podcast and I talk to people and I'm like,

1:32:28

wow, you could have been doing anything. What made

1:32:30

you be involved in punk? And

1:32:32

it's just because I look at you and you're

1:32:35

very, you know, they're high functioning people and then

1:32:37

there's other people myself where

1:32:40

if it wasn't for punk, I would not be doing,

1:32:42

I don't know what I'd be doing, but I certainly

1:32:44

wouldn't be making any sort of music and I probably

1:32:47

wouldn't be doing much of anything. So

1:32:52

let's talk about it. We

1:32:55

got to talk about you. I mean, because you

1:32:57

know that there are ways like, yes, you're doing

1:32:59

great stuff. You're doing great work in the world.

1:33:01

This is great work. Maybe

1:33:04

you can. There's

1:33:06

other things that like maybe dreams that

1:33:08

you've had to let go of at a time like

1:33:11

yes, punk rock brings joy and it's fulfilling

1:33:13

and you're like able, but maybe there were

1:33:15

dreams like when you were 14, like I

1:33:17

want to be a veterinarian or a therapist

1:33:20

or a firefighter. Some of those

1:33:22

things that beyond us, but there are ways that

1:33:24

like we're all living long lives, we're

1:33:26

living long lives in our generation,

1:33:28

sprinting this idea that like we're going to

1:33:31

have multiple careers. We can do multiple things.

1:33:36

Like I wanted to collect comic books and

1:33:39

I enjoyed drawing comic books and

1:33:42

then I probably would have wanted to be a

1:33:44

professional acid taker for a short period of time.

1:33:47

But then once I saw 1991, the

1:33:49

year punk broke, I

1:33:52

realized like, no, I just want to be, I would

1:33:55

love nothing more than to be in a band. And

1:33:57

maybe I should have set my ambitions a little higher

1:33:59

like being a. veterinarian But

1:34:02

the fact that I'm found a way to kind of do it

1:34:04

is Testament to this kind of world

1:34:06

and when the power this world had Would

1:34:09

you ever consider that taking acid you were

1:34:11

doing that for a way for self?

1:34:13

realization for being it or not self realization

1:34:15

is a weird word side at minute like

1:34:18

self-reflection being able to Move

1:34:21

yourself forward. I mean that's like a really big

1:34:23

deal and that's something that like Going

1:34:26

into social worker therapy Maybe

1:34:28

a couple years from now might

1:34:31

be of interest to support people

1:34:33

in that field I I

1:34:35

definitely feel like I when I say I was a

1:34:37

big acid fan I only did a few times like

1:34:39

I really was not as much of a head as

1:34:41

I make it down there But I

1:34:44

feel like there was yeah, I'm sure that's part of

1:34:46

it. I think a lot. It was also trying to

1:34:48

find a Place

1:34:50

where I felt like I belong and I felt

1:34:52

like this it was a group of friends of

1:34:54

mine that were really into drugs at that point,

1:34:56

but it wasn't necessarily

1:34:58

the drugs it I feel like my enjoyment

1:35:02

of it and all that stuff came By

1:35:06

being part of us a community I

1:35:09

feel like that's really what I found in punk

1:35:11

is that you could be part of a community

1:35:13

and like Like we

1:35:15

said before there's there's barriers of entry and things like that

1:35:17

But it didn't matter how you dressed when you went to

1:35:20

a punk and hardcore show and people will talk about Not

1:35:22

matter how you dressed not by the time

1:35:24

I was there. I feel like post grunge

1:35:28

post Hardcore

1:35:30

a lot of that stuff kind of went by the

1:35:33

way So there were still kids that charged their hair

1:35:35

and you would call you a poser if you

1:35:37

didn't have a leather jacket or things like that but there was

1:35:39

also a Side of that was be

1:35:41

like no your a poser if you wear a

1:35:43

leather jacket because you're supposed to be vegetarian or

1:35:45

vegan Or it just felt like a place you

1:35:47

could just be yourself and do your things and

1:35:49

once again I tend to idealize it but

1:35:53

I want you to know that right now. I'm wearing

1:35:55

sweatshirts Sweatpants and a sweatshirt,

1:35:57

but if I rolled into a fuck show I

1:36:00

don't know if people would be into that. Are you

1:36:02

kidding? You would be the height of fashion. You got on this

1:36:04

podcast Jennifer and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're like dressed up

1:36:06

as a 91. Okay.

1:36:09

I'm not talking about now. Oh now. Yeah,

1:36:12

no, back then it'd be different. Back then it

1:36:14

was very different, but back then it's

1:36:16

like, like you're

1:36:18

talking about earlier on with that first wave,

1:36:21

having to shed that kind of rock

1:36:23

star baggage of

1:36:25

punk rock. And then it was like the next

1:36:27

wave where it changed. I think, I think

1:36:30

that the person that forefronted like

1:36:32

letting go of the rock star

1:36:34

baggage was also the one

1:36:36

that had to be sacrificed at the altar. W

1:36:41

would Kurt Kurt. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:36:44

think I don't know. And I, once again, I

1:36:46

never met him, but I do, I do

1:36:50

wonder how much of certainly

1:36:53

drugs and everything he was dealing with. But I think I

1:36:55

would wonder how much punk

1:36:57

rock kind of like hung heavy on him. Certainly

1:37:00

from all the books I read as a kid, like that was a

1:37:02

lot of my early understanding

1:37:05

of this thing as not being like

1:37:07

one style of music was hearing

1:37:09

him talk about the

1:37:11

Vaseline's or researching this kind

1:37:13

of world where like the music doesn't have to be

1:37:16

one sound doesn't have to be one type of thing,

1:37:18

but it's more like an ideology and sort of a

1:37:20

mentality. And I think that's

1:37:23

the sad thing is there's Nirvana

1:37:25

wasn't, even though Nirvana was

1:37:27

commercially the most successful punk band there, there

1:37:29

wasn't successful in the end because it costs

1:37:31

someone their life before the

1:37:33

whole story was told. And I think like

1:37:36

you're saying, that's the, uh, the

1:37:39

reality of that music to this day, when you listen

1:37:41

to it in the car and my kids are obsessed

1:37:43

with Nirvana, like obsessed. And so we'll listen to it

1:37:45

in the car and having to

1:37:47

kind of broach that subject with them and kind

1:37:49

of talk about it and sort of like, does

1:37:51

some really good conversations with them about drug

1:37:54

use and, and, and safety and,

1:37:56

and mental health and all sorts

1:37:58

of things. But. It

1:38:00

is tragic music at the end of the

1:38:02

day. Yeah, it's

1:38:04

funny that Kathy Wilcox's interview you did

1:38:06

where she was saying like, we go

1:38:09

to these, you know, rock schools for girls,

1:38:11

they're singing our songs and they weren't meant

1:38:13

for children. Yeah. Yeah.

1:38:16

Well, as you're saying about the Basquiat art or the

1:38:18

Keith Herring art where you have this art that existed

1:38:21

in one space and then you take it out

1:38:23

of its context and give it a completely new

1:38:25

thing where it's just

1:38:27

a commercial artifact. It no longer has any

1:38:29

of the meaning that it kind of came

1:38:32

out of. Right. You know, there's a word for

1:38:34

it, right? No, what is it? Death of the artist.

1:38:36

Death of the artist? Okay. Death of the

1:38:39

artist is a concept by writer

1:38:42

Roland Barthes who said that

1:38:44

when you create, you

1:38:47

know, and there's also a media guy named

1:38:49

Stuart Hall that like any

1:38:51

object is not just the creators, it's

1:38:54

who's receiving it. It's like what it's in,

1:38:56

you know, the purpose of its receivers, right?

1:38:58

And death of the artist is about like

1:39:00

how you have to sometimes

1:39:02

separate the artist from the art that you

1:39:04

let something go and it's going to be

1:39:06

interpreted and become something different because the audience

1:39:09

is going to, no matter whether it's commercial

1:39:11

or not, the audience is going to hold

1:39:13

an interpretation for it. Oh,

1:39:15

absolutely. That makes, yeah, I've definitely heard of, you

1:39:17

know, separating the art from the artist, and I

1:39:19

think as an artist, there is a, broadly

1:39:23

speaking, me as an artist, but there's a, you

1:39:26

have to surrender your thing and then it will

1:39:29

take on a completely different life with

1:39:31

the person who receives it, so much

1:39:33

to the point that it will affect

1:39:36

how they interact with everything you

1:39:38

make after that, where you're now competing with

1:39:40

their nostalgia. If it works, like

1:39:42

if a song hits with that person, they're

1:39:45

going to be stuck with that song whenever

1:39:48

they listen to anything you make for the rest of your life,

1:39:50

even though it's just one brief moment

1:39:52

of expression for you. Right, right,

1:39:54

right. It's, yeah,

1:39:56

I'm fascinated by that. I think that is such

1:39:58

an interesting part of this. thing. Yeah,

1:40:00

becoming your own cartoon in a

1:40:02

way that's like a... Like

1:40:06

you're saying about Courtney Love writing

1:40:08

this book where there's

1:40:10

just so much character put on to

1:40:12

a person at a certain point,

1:40:14

especially the bigger you are where

1:40:17

you eventually

1:40:19

have a choice. You either reject

1:40:21

it or you have to play to it but it's

1:40:23

never really you. Like it's never...

1:40:25

it's like pro wrestling. It's very much

1:40:28

a pro wrestling character

1:40:30

but none of your choosing. Jennifer,

1:40:36

this has been one of my favorite conversations I've

1:40:38

ever gone to have and I gotta

1:40:40

say anytime you want to come on this show, if

1:40:42

you want to be my regular co-host, you're always welcome

1:40:44

on this thing. Oh,

1:40:47

okay. Well then okay. I

1:40:49

have... What

1:40:51

about like... because you're like you

1:40:53

know you're going up the coast and you're playing the Gilman

1:40:56

and all these types of shows and I

1:40:58

find it's in the documentary you talk about

1:41:00

when you go and play that Fugazi show.

1:41:02

I think it's a

1:41:04

Rock for Choice benefit in DC and Bikini Kills

1:41:07

on the show and how you don't fit in

1:41:09

there. It was the Women's March. It was a

1:41:11

little bit... sorry. Yeah, Rock for Choice is a

1:41:13

little bit different. Rock for Choice like went

1:41:17

to specifically help

1:41:19

protect women's health. Like

1:41:21

it was very specific. So

1:41:24

I think the sort of the Women's March show that

1:41:26

you played there, you're always in kind

1:41:28

of disparate scenes. Like it's

1:41:30

a band that doesn't really fit

1:41:32

into any one scene as much as you fit

1:41:35

into like just the history of punk rock. So

1:41:38

what was it like? Like what'd you find? Like you're playing... It's

1:41:40

not just the history of punk rock.

1:41:42

It's like really the history of the

1:41:44

culture of the time. It like even

1:41:47

spans. Like we are embraced at punk

1:41:49

shows but we're also embraced at metal

1:41:51

shows. Like we have a whole other

1:41:53

side. This mostly more maybe Europe and

1:41:55

South America but where we you

1:41:57

know played And

1:42:01

that's just with kiss. You know what I

1:42:03

mean? With kiss outlining. But

1:42:06

I mean like as a band that kind of came out

1:42:08

of punk, you know, now interacting with

1:42:10

all the manifestations of this thing, was there one

1:42:12

place that you felt kind of

1:42:14

more at home playing a show? Like you're playing a show with

1:42:16

Green Day and the offspring, and obviously

1:42:18

there's a difference in years, but then you're also playing