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back. Hello

1:27

and welcome to another edition of Turn Out of Punk.

1:29

I'm your host, Demi Naberham. I'm once again bringing you

1:31

a conversation with someone who grumbles in a punk. Mayor

1:33

I'm not still being involved with punk but I have

1:35

their life changed by the genre in

1:37

a major way. Until the show, a

1:40

long time friend. First time I've

1:42

ever had a real conversation with them. Matt

1:44

Corvette from the band. Pissed

1:47

jeans. Also of Ultimate Warriors.

1:50

Also of Gate Crashers. And

1:53

more. More than one second. First, if

1:55

you want to get in touch with me, head over

1:58

to the email address. Turn out of punkpodcast.gmail.com. That

2:00

is run by my brother and show producer

2:04

Tristan Abraham and you've got the message to me.

2:06

Thank you Tristan for everything you do and you

2:09

can also find me on Twitter or Instagram

2:11

at left for Damien this show has a

2:14

tick tock page and Instagram page a YouTube

2:17

page Say

2:20

Facebook All

2:22

those social media sites at turned out a

2:24

punk on those platforms if You

2:28

want to support the show Tell

2:31

your friends about it. Let them know that you

2:33

listen this podcast and That's

2:36

the best way to support it. Oh Right

2:39

on to today's show today on

2:41

the show Matt

2:43

Corvette And as

2:46

I set off the top Matt someone I've known for like

2:48

years Years and

2:50

years and Brad's been on the show from piss jeans

2:53

and gay crashers and ultimate warriors It's

2:56

very much like a collective thing these

2:58

bands as we discussed in this episode and

3:01

I've talked to Brad But I've

3:04

never talked to Matt really well a couple

3:06

times with like, you know little

3:08

chats here and there but as I

3:10

say in the episode he's someone I would always have

3:12

described as being my buddy and now

3:15

now we really actually I Can

3:18

say that without feeling like I'm being a little disingenuous

3:20

when I say that because we had we have talked

3:22

now for two Straight hours and

3:24

if you're not If

3:27

you're not enemies after that and you got to be

3:29

friends Piss jeans are one

3:31

of the greatest bands That

3:34

I've gotten a witness in my time Making

3:36

music and this new half divorce

3:39

record Dare, I

3:41

say might be their best record ever

3:43

which is crazy to say for a band That's

3:45

like 20 years in 20 plus

3:47

years in but I really mean it.

3:49

It's coming out on sub pop Well,

3:52

if you're listening this when this thing drops it's

3:54

out today, but if you're listening this You

3:56

know weeks or months years later go back and check

3:59

this thing out because this thing is a monster.

4:01

I'm sure this will be on a lot of people's

4:03

best of the year lists because

4:05

it's definitely on mine. Well, that

4:07

doesn't mean anything. I like a lot of people

4:09

don't like but I think this will be an

4:12

exception. There's some, I don't want to spoil any

4:14

surprises but there are some cool surprises on this

4:16

one and I think I actually

4:18

give them away on this episode. So I'm not going to

4:20

ramble on anymore and and other than to

4:22

tell you, check out Pissed Jeans. They're going to

4:24

be playing some shows. I

4:26

think they're playing on the west coast this weekend. If you're listening to

4:28

this thing when it drops and if

4:31

not, check your local listings and that

4:33

is it. Sit back,

4:35

relax and enjoy Matt Corvett. Matt,

4:42

thank you for coming on the show. My

4:44

pleasure, Damian. Thank you so much for having me. Well,

4:46

it was weird because we talked just before we started

4:49

recording that this is a situation

4:52

where because we've never really sat down and

4:54

had the chance to talk but

4:57

I do really feel a very

4:59

strong kinship to your

5:01

band and yourself in a way. I do

5:04

feel like we're

5:06

from the same scene even though Cheer Craft,

5:08

we are so different. For sure. No, I

5:10

totally feel the same way. Maybe neither

5:13

of us have ever broken up and

5:15

we kind of started around the same

5:17

time. Probably,

5:20

we're both underground

5:22

and beloved for like

5:24

two years and

5:27

then got popular to

5:29

a level that disgusted some

5:31

and brought in new folks.

5:33

I feel like we have similar trajectory in a

5:36

lot of ways for sure. I know

5:38

a bunch of your bandmates, I just never chatted with

5:40

you. I don't know, it's a little weird. Yeah, because

5:42

I know Brad a little bit. Brad, of course, has

5:44

been on the show, I think twice actually he was

5:46

on another time too. I feel

5:49

like I know Brad a little bit better. It's

5:51

just for sure. It's one of those weird things where you just

5:53

don't sit down and talk to someone but then I would

5:57

describe, I'm like, yeah, that's my friend. That's my

5:59

friend. Even though we've never really

6:01

had like a talk like this right

6:03

now. So it's great to do

6:06

it. Exactly It's taking a long time to happen.

6:08

But also I feel like Not

6:11

just from Brad but like, you know the

6:13

gatecrashers LP calling Gatecrashers

6:15

are a bunch of motherfuckers. Like there's just so much

6:18

deep head punk shit To

6:21

you guys and you're kind of

6:23

crew going back way way back

6:25

when that also really kind of

6:27

a Feel a strong kinship

6:29

to that too So we'll get to all of it But

6:31

this has got to be started off the way they all

6:33

start off which is Matt How'd you get in a punk

6:36

from the first time you came across it? Yeah,

6:38

I mean I was always a big

6:41

Music kid, you know like

6:44

metal whatever like Elementary

6:47

school it was like Guns N' Roses for

6:49

sure me. It's still Guns N' Roses

6:51

for me But that was like the

6:54

first band I got into and then

6:56

from there, you know alternative nirvana But

6:59

really I feel like the you know kind

7:01

of a similar trajectory for a lot of

7:03

people our age, I think But

7:06

it all changed for me when I was was

7:09

my 13th birthday And

7:12

I lived in northern, New Jersey at the

7:14

time my

7:16

dad took me to a Yankees game and We

7:19

went to Tower Records beforehand and

7:22

I don't know like I mean like if you maybe if you walk

7:24

into like Amoeba Even you

7:26

being a lover of music you get frozen

7:29

with the choice of a million things Right

7:31

and you like can't even look because it's just there's

7:34

just too much stuff and that's how I felt at

7:36

Tower I like didn't know what I

7:38

wanted and I just grabbed two things Just

7:41

from like cover art alone Which

7:43

felt like a really big risk because I

7:45

wasn't really I probably had like a dozen

7:48

CDs or something you know, like it really

7:50

made a difference to get two

7:52

new ones and the ones I

7:54

grabbed were Pennywise's

7:56

unknown road and large the

7:58

power of lard EP

8:03

and I loved them both

8:05

you know like it was just one of those

8:07

things that like I don't know if you know

8:09

how familiar you are with Unknown Road in particular

8:11

but it starts off with like a

8:14

crackly piano you know

8:16

prelude and I was so scared that

8:18

I bought like classical music by mistake

8:21

for like that first 30 seconds

8:24

but then it kicked in and I was like this is this

8:26

is amazing you know yeah and so it was

8:28

like a solo venture it was just kind of

8:31

me in my bedroom like not

8:33

knowing what it you know not being able

8:35

to piece this together really but

8:39

yeah I just like was super into it from

8:41

that point I didn't know about dead kennedy's but

8:43

I knew lard you know just because there was

8:46

that like crazy worm on the cover

8:48

that was just very stark

8:50

you know eye-catching very

8:53

dune kind of vibe to it too yeah

8:55

yeah and I mean and there was no

8:57

photos of the members of lard which added

9:00

to like what is this

9:02

you know like it was just so the

9:04

mystery was so alluring to

9:06

that like the lyrics totally went

9:08

over my head in a lot of ways but

9:11

I could tell they were like very forbidden you

9:14

know yeah and yeah I just

9:16

I kind of got into that and then I mean

9:18

it really was just a matter of um thanks

9:22

lists like pennywise's thanks list you

9:24

know realizing okay this is epitaph

9:27

let me see what else that entails you know

9:29

and this was gee

9:31

probably like yeah

9:34

like 94 but like it must I

9:36

don't know when green day hit exactly

9:38

probably around the same general time um

9:42

so that of course was like a big thing

9:44

you know to figure out green day and like

9:47

lookout records maybe it wasn't

9:49

long until I moved to

9:52

nazereth pennsylvania and

9:54

met brad and randy and a bunch of

9:56

like who are my band mates today and

9:58

a bunch of other like really close

10:00

friends that I'm still super

10:02

tight with who kind of were

10:04

like one or two years advanced and

10:07

knew about like underground punk and

10:09

just kind of opened the door for me. It's

10:12

interesting though Guns N' Roses adds this on-ramp

10:15

because they were as much as

10:17

they weren't a punk band and kind

10:19

of the exact opposite of Nirvana

10:21

and obviously the two bands kind of had

10:24

a beef back then even. Yeah. They

10:26

are weirdly a band from punk like Izzy

10:29

and Duff both being out of punk bands

10:31

and playing in kind of like hardcore

10:33

bands back in the day and

10:35

playing these hardcore shows. So they

10:37

were in a pre-Nirvana world

10:40

I think a like

10:42

an alternative kind of punk like

10:44

Beacon in a way. Yeah I mean especially if

10:46

you put them up against you know some of

10:49

their other hair metal brethren they had the edge.

10:51

Yeah I was always kind of looking for the

10:53

edge you know not the

10:55

guitarist but yeah. Or the wrestler.

10:58

Yeah yeah that's right that's right. Yeah

11:02

no I mean I guess that grit and that

11:04

sort of like real world thing like I

11:07

would say like that like you know Metallica I

11:09

was fine with but they didn't grab me the

11:11

same way like Guns N' Roses did or stuff

11:14

that seemed more like from the

11:16

streets you know even if it's like a

11:18

full fabrication I found that

11:20

more appealing. Yeah there was kind of like

11:22

a dead boys vibe to

11:25

it like obviously I didn't know the dead

11:27

boys then and I think probably probably heard

11:29

Ain't It Fun the first time when Guns N' Roses

11:31

covered it. Yeah I mean the

11:33

spaghetti incident was my first ever CD purchase

11:36

actually. What were you buying

11:38

before Tapes I guess? Yeah yeah yeah.

11:40

Yeah it's a the

11:42

CD was just so much more expensive at

11:45

the time that like by the time CDs

11:47

became affordable. Yeah I guess spaghetti incident, User

11:50

Illusions volume 1 and 2 were also

11:52

like early CD type purchases but yeah

11:54

prior to that it was like the

11:57

worst format ever in the tape. No.

12:00

The Fisher, the Old Broke,

12:02

the always like the never.

12:04

Yeah. I never took a love to

12:06

tapes. Honestly, I mean I I loved having

12:09

them without was the option. but I was

12:11

eager to move on to Cdt Swisher. My.

12:14

Last tape deck ribbon just broke so I

12:16

can't play any these tapes that I'm like

12:18

surrounded with. Now it's man yeah like I

12:20

appreciate that are like. What? They

12:23

exist as today. Kind of like

12:25

an actual thing that you can

12:27

make cheaply and sell cheaply. It's

12:29

like the last cheap saying, you

12:31

know. And that's a great thing,

12:33

but I don't really wanna sit there and play a

12:35

T by guess on a know. What? Is

12:38

important like the advancement of the tape was

12:40

his such a huge thing for punk, metal

12:42

and hardcore in all these music said didn't

12:44

have. The. Attention

12:46

or the economic means to to reproduce

12:48

and like a easy really see the

12:50

importance of this thing. but when the

12:53

tape revival app and nervously was not

12:55

like the record fossil had hall. Yeah.

12:58

Me too. It was cool when it's like a

13:00

means to an end rather than like a trotsky,

13:02

you know? yet? Tower Records

13:04

in Times Square. Is

13:06

a legendary terror. Cell Records in general

13:09

was a really cool mainstream chains for

13:11

a week where the few source accurate

13:13

zients. Yeah. Yeah,

13:15

no, that was all eight. Know I

13:17

was my problem. I only time going into that

13:20

shop to don't just been blown away. You know?

13:22

Yeah. I was what when I went to

13:25

New York it was like a like a

13:27

music nerd tourist attraction cover from Canada. like

13:29

you gotta go that Tower Records in times

13:31

square and see all the schools that they've

13:33

got their have observed here and it was

13:36

a. At. Like

13:38

it. Like you're saying, it's an overwhelming feeling

13:40

walking into a store like that and and

13:42

now it's. Obviously completely different

13:44

in the way you consume use

13:46

of words. Tower Records Times Ten

13:49

Water? Yeah, but especially when you

13:51

didn't have. The. Road map yet to

13:53

put it together to know which section and dig

13:55

into or which records to look for. Yeah.

13:58

there was like a small record shop in

14:00

the town that I lived in in northern

14:02

New Jersey that was like, you

14:04

know, had a guy with like shaved head, like

14:07

braid on top, like kind of like Nine Inch

14:10

Nails fan, you know, like, and this is like

14:12

92 or something who

14:14

worked there and I remember like

14:18

seeing a biohazard picture, you know, the

14:20

orange vinyl like with no cover and

14:23

I didn't know what it was, you know, I'm

14:25

like this seems really cool but like is

14:28

this like a memorabilia? Like what do

14:30

you do with this? You know, like

14:33

it just I didn't know that it was a

14:35

record that you played, you know, it just seemed

14:37

like and I didn't really know much about biohazard

14:39

either except they had like a sick

14:41

logo and you know like Beavis and

14:43

Butthead probably liked them or something. They

14:46

were on the Judgment Night soundtrack. Yeah,

14:48

yeah, I mean there was like an

14:50

awareness but not like I didn't knowledge

14:52

of their music. Yeah. And that

14:55

also that store, I was

14:57

a huge Regis the Machine fan before I got

14:59

into punk, you know, still am I suppose, and

15:03

they had like a CD I'd never seen before by

15:05

them for like $25 which was unheard of and

15:10

it actually was just like a bootleg of a live

15:12

show but I didn't like understand

15:14

that and then when I bought the CD it

15:16

had like a different band's name printed on it

15:18

and I was just like furious that they like

15:20

stiffed me, you know, just like so

15:23

I didn't have like an older sibling

15:26

or like an older friend at this

15:28

point to explain things and

15:30

I just got a lot of things kind

15:32

of wrong or was confused at first, you

15:34

know. Well, and that's there was like

15:37

a real trial and error process to

15:39

figuring this stuff out then because

15:42

you were like you're saying like

15:44

these formats weren't necessarily talked about so you

15:46

didn't necessarily know let

15:49

alone what the bands on them were.

15:51

I remember going to HMV

15:53

here in Toronto which had a kind of a cool

15:56

punk, I guess back then it was the alternative

15:58

section they called it first. And

16:00

they had a copy of the no effects whole effects

16:02

12-inch and Same

16:04

sort of thing like I looked at it. I'm like, okay, I've

16:07

heard of this band No effects, but like I

16:09

don't know if I can get my parents record

16:11

player working a you

16:13

know And it's always been a big regret and

16:15

then I found out later years later that Mike from fucked

16:17

up actually bought that copy Before

16:20

we knew each other And

16:22

then trained it be yeah They traded for two

16:24

violent children bootlegs and totally got stiffed in the

16:27

trade because that yeah Oh, it's over

16:29

so much money now with the bottom man Like

16:33

did you get a chance to go to

16:35

any live concerts before moving to Pennsylvania?

16:37

No, no like I concerts weren't like a

16:39

part of my life really I First

16:44

went to shows, you know, like once I figured

16:46

that out and I went to like a fire

16:48

hall show and It was

16:50

just like the best thing ever, you know, then it was like

16:52

why would I ever? Buy

16:55

something that has like a ticket, you know

16:57

and go where like someone's

16:59

like there's security Like it just didn't make

17:01

any sense. Like I loved Shows

17:04

and like the DIY aspect

17:07

It just was so much fun You know

17:09

like I've always wanted to like create stuff

17:11

and that was just like everyone here is

17:13

like a year older than me and they've

17:15

created this world That

17:17

they just created and that

17:19

was like the coolest thing to me, you know, like

17:22

the accessibility And just people

17:24

I knew I mean they were like stars to me,

17:27

but they were also regular

17:29

people I don't know. It just was so

17:31

alluring. I think to this day it ruined music

17:34

any other way, but this like I

17:37

take my kids sometimes to see big concerts

17:39

or you know artists that

17:41

they're more familiar with that are are

17:43

removed from it and it's just I Just

17:46

couldn't imagine engaging with music like

17:49

that Like once you've been to

17:51

a shitty community center show and felt

17:53

the power of Like

17:55

a like a Los crudos or a drop

17:58

dead or just like any number For

18:00

sure. You know, like how do you go back to

18:02

the stadium, no matter how

18:04

great that Kiss show is? Yeah,

18:06

yeah. No, no, I feel, I mean, I've been to

18:08

like concerts since then,

18:10

but it's like, I put it in like

18:13

a different bracket in my brain. You know,

18:15

it's like a different form of entertainment than

18:18

going to a show for sure. Were

18:20

you already a wrestling fan at this point? Like,

18:23

had you gone to the live wrestling? I

18:25

hadn't seen that either, but yeah, for sure.

18:28

Like, you know, since eight years old or

18:30

whatever, like I broke my leg

18:32

in second grade and it was like the

18:34

first time I was awake till like midnight.

18:37

And it was like, you know, they had like Saturday

18:39

night's main event. And I remember just being like, oh

18:41

my God, this is the spectacle.

18:43

Like I love this too, for sure.

18:47

And yeah, it's just like also like a private

18:49

thing that, man, that I moved to

18:51

this really small town in Nazareth and like make

18:53

my best friends for life who are like independently

18:56

into the same stuff. Yeah.

19:00

It's really cool that you've, you found that.

19:02

Cause I've seen, I

19:04

definitely met kids at different stages that were

19:07

into punk and into hardcore, but it wasn't

19:09

until later on when I started getting more

19:11

into like the DIY. She was

19:13

like, how tapped into kind of like the DIY stuff.

19:15

And I guess like at that point, was it like

19:18

Plow United and Throttle

19:20

Jockey, I think they were called, right? Or?

19:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's stuff for

19:25

sure. Yeah. Like that was like the Westchester

19:27

bands and like, I mean, it was

19:30

also very much like zine based,

19:32

like who's advertising that was like,

19:35

what, like Coolidge Records or something

19:37

really small, local

19:40

labels. But yeah, we would get super

19:42

into that stuff. This is like also

19:45

concurrently getting into like bovine

19:47

records and like buying, you

19:49

know, power violence split seven

19:51

inches while like it was mostly like

19:53

power violence and like pop punk were like

19:55

the two. Interests,

19:57

you know, they were just like.

19:59

They were most active, I don't know. Hardcore

20:04

was what? It was still like kind of

20:06

new age records at that point, which I

20:09

didn't gravitate towards. I

20:11

wanted fast music, I guess. This

20:15

was before Youth Crew came about in like 99 or

20:18

so, like the revival, I guess. So

20:22

yeah, it was just like, finding grind

20:24

and fast hardcore bands and the

20:27

Queers and Pop Punk and

20:29

Plow United, whatever. Any bands

20:31

that sounded like that? Yeah, you were

20:33

kind of like, and I was the same way. I

20:36

wanted stuff, like as much

20:38

as I had liked the Victory stuff, but

20:40

I wanted stuff fast. I wanted like

20:43

fast hardcore, and that's why there were the few

20:45

bands like Devoid of Faith and Los

20:48

Crudos and Drop Dead. There were like those

20:51

bands that were kind of like old

20:53

school sounding, but it was too and far

20:56

between, like you're saying. That

20:58

being said, I talked about this with Brad, Bovine

21:00

Records, some of the greatest music ever.

21:03

Oh yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean,

21:05

and just like the split seven inch

21:07

presentation is such a good gateway, because

21:09

you know one band, but you don't

21:12

know the other. It's all just like

21:15

connecting different little neurons in my

21:17

brain of like figuring out where

21:20

are these bands from? Like, okay, Apartment

21:23

213 is from Ohio. I'm

21:25

going to file that away. Like

21:27

stuff like that. Like, I

21:30

don't know, it was just an

21:32

exciting time and you could like kind

21:34

of get all the records, you know, like

21:36

if you tried hard enough or like pooled

21:38

with your friends, there wasn't such a like

21:40

a volume. It was like, no, you can

21:42

kind of get everything,

21:44

you know, like Vacuum Distro

21:46

only has so many like Slap-a-Ham

21:49

records that are my purchase.

21:52

I love those toasts. I think it's the split was

21:54

Baz. Or maybe it's just also they had a solo

21:56

seven inch. That's really good too. They definitely had a

21:58

couple records. I remember thinking. and were ripping, but I don't think

22:01

I've heard that LP. Yeah, no, you know,

22:03

it's fine. Yeah. But

22:05

it was more the thrill of getting it and like

22:07

the provenance of it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

22:09

There's definitely records in my collection that

22:12

I hold on to because I know who they

22:14

came from. And it was like, yo,

22:17

this record I bought at Hits and Misses, but

22:19

it came from Pink Champions Collection. So. Yeah,

22:21

that's really cool. There's that, have

22:23

you read that book about record collecting? I think

22:25

it was called Adventures in Vinyl. No,

22:28

no. It's in, I'll send you the name and

22:30

I'm sure I'm fucking it up. But

22:33

in that there's a whole chapter about this guy

22:35

who buys or a whole section of the chapter

22:37

about a guy who buys Jimi Hendrix's record collection.

22:40

So he could have the records that Jimi Hendrix had

22:42

in kind of coveting the fact

22:44

that certain records were scratched on certain songs and

22:47

leading him to believe that those were his favorite

22:49

songs and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. It's a

22:51

fun way. I mean, I don't

22:53

know. I like, I don't know

22:55

what's going to happen to my records when

22:58

I die, hopefully just, you know, dumped in

23:00

a landfill quietly, you know, lit

23:02

on fire or something. No, I don't know.

23:04

But like, it is an interesting way to

23:06

like, review someone, right? Like the Joe

23:09

Bussard's collection or whatever of 78, you know? Well,

23:13

there's, uh, collections

23:16

that are donated to places where they

23:18

donate it en masse and

23:21

it becomes, I guess, part of an

23:23

archive. I think that's very,

23:25

uh, it's like the most idealized

23:27

way for your records to go. Right,

23:30

right. Have you watched that documentary vinyl

23:32

about record collecting? Okay.

23:36

Well, I think it's on YouTube. So I'll send you the link

23:38

to it. It's by this guy, Alan Zwag, and it's one

23:41

of the greatest documentaries ever, but also

23:44

one of the most terrifying about, less

23:47

by the grace of God, their Goliath type

23:50

vibes where there's one guy in

23:52

it who's just so distraught

23:54

over the fact that someone else could own

23:57

his records, that he quietly

23:59

dumps them all. off in a dumpster rather

24:02

than see them in someone else's hands just

24:04

so they would be destroyed. Man.

24:06

Yeah, that's a, it's

24:08

like a wake up call, right? When you see a

24:10

dude like that to be like, man, I got to

24:13

get over this shit. You know? Well,

24:15

there's like records in my collection like that thing. It

24:17

was the big champion type record where when

24:20

I die, my kids, this is just a burden for my kids.

24:22

Like how the fuck am I going to be able to do

24:24

all this dumb shit? Like, right? There

24:27

will be a massive garage sale outside of my house

24:30

at some point and all this stuff will be available

24:32

for pennies on the dollar. Like the

24:34

typhus flexi for. Yeah, I

24:36

mean, that seems like a good way. You know,

24:38

who cares when, you know, once we're gone. Yeah,

24:41

there's almost a romanticism to it. Like that you

24:44

could become part of one of those great scores.

24:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean, which are like so less

24:49

prevalent now. I mean, I guess they do exist,

24:51

but. They

24:53

do exist, but you're right. Like it is,

24:55

it feels like, it

24:58

feels like now it's only

25:01

because you're able to take advantage of

25:03

someone that like is unable to do

25:05

discogs in some way. Yeah, somehow, right?

25:07

Because it's all spelled out there. Yeah.

25:10

Now that all these things have a defined price, but like

25:13

in the time we're talking about, until that vacuum auction,

25:15

a lot of this stuff, it

25:18

could be worth hundreds of dollars. It could be

25:20

worth nothing, but vacuum auction really did establish a

25:22

value for especially that 90s stuff, like

25:24

early 90s stuff. Yeah, no, I mean, like it

25:28

was nice when records weren't this like coveted

25:31

fetishized thing like en masse the

25:33

way it is now, you know,

25:35

like, no one's buying CDs,

25:37

you know, all music is free. So it's

25:39

all just for like, collectableness

25:42

and not because like you get to hear

25:44

it, you know, because

25:46

it was fun when things were cheap. Like,

25:49

I'm just like, do I have to get into

25:51

CDs now because that's so much

25:54

fun to like not pay a lot of money

25:56

and get a lot of music. And now it's

25:58

like the LP style. starting

26:00

price of $30, it just, you know, I

26:02

don't know who's able to

26:04

have fun at that level, you know, like,

26:07

Well, cause like you're saying, it's not about, it's

26:10

not a functional artifact anymore. Like it is

26:13

functional for people like

26:15

us that I guess have a nostalgia for

26:17

the ritual, but in terms of like, like

26:19

a tape and things like that, that is

26:21

purely collectible at this point and purely aesthetic

26:23

in a lot of ways for people. Yeah.

26:26

It's a, I mean, I remember

26:28

like very clearly hearing about a

26:31

chun King that sold for $200 and being

26:34

like, that is an unbelievable price for a

26:36

single wreck. You know, like, who is, who

26:38

is this, you know, even when was that

26:40

$200 was a good price almost at any

26:42

time for that record. Like,

26:47

right? Like it was just like, I'm

26:49

like, who's, you must save up for

26:51

months, I guess, to achieve

26:54

that. And then for what, for one record.

26:56

And now it's just like, I

26:58

dunno, there's like a white vinyl rat

27:01

LP from 2017 that's $200. You

27:05

know, it's just, it's so stupid. I

27:07

think Mark

27:09

McCoy and the rest of Charles Bronson, O

27:11

Felix von Havoc, a big apology

27:14

for clowning on him for buying that sex drive for

27:16

$600 because he has

27:19

been vindicated by the fact that that thing is

27:21

now probably what, $10,000 at this point. Yeah.

27:24

That's, it's really

27:27

gross. It's also unappealing, you know, it

27:29

is. It definitely has taken a

27:33

lot of the fun out of it and also knowing that with

27:37

the right amount of money, any

27:40

record, barring things

27:43

that only exist in like one or two copies,

27:45

but anything could be

27:47

had now for the right price. And

27:49

it, like before when

27:51

these things were cheap or when

27:54

the value was really decided by The

27:56

person that wanted to purchase it and the seller

27:58

more than like some speculative. Yeah,

28:01

market thing it was. It was different.

28:04

And. Yeah Yeah no and yeah.

28:07

I I saw a buying dollar been records and

28:09

like you're still a. The still stuff

28:11

that I I find it has forced

28:14

me to open up my palate. To.

28:16

Records a lot more. And. Like

28:18

what I'm interested in and things

28:20

that collecting things that people don't

28:23

necessarily. Have it right now

28:25

in the same sort away like a lotta

28:27

Uk. Late. eighties.

28:30

Poppy. Hardcore. You. Know? whatever.

28:32

Yet it is fun to get into.

28:35

like I'm just like a voracious listener

28:37

in general and like I love. The.

28:40

Intimidation of a new genre to me,

28:42

you know, and figuring out what I

28:44

like. How do you even like wade

28:46

through at all like that's? really satisfy

28:48

and I couldn't. You can buy zero

28:50

record Cygnus checks, you know, songs out

28:52

online. Whatever. Like it doesn't have to

28:54

be about. like accumulating so much is

28:56

just like learning like that's what you

28:58

know. I love, just learned in getting

29:00

turned on the cool stuff that I

29:03

didn't know about like yesterday. you know,

29:05

I. Also, love. Like

29:08

person all white wales of records

29:10

like finding records said. There's

29:13

not like it's not it as at

29:16

or a vengeance or something like that,

29:18

but it's I buy extra brought about

29:20

when I found it. Federal Civil War

29:22

is record with a a Joke has

29:24

Revenge sleeve who died over as an

29:27

alternate warriors record. One of the coolest

29:29

fines of ever had. Man for new

29:31

as yeah yeah. Yeah.

29:35

Yeah, there's you must know Alec Sanchez,

29:37

right? Of yea, he's just

29:39

been like. medically

29:41

also lawyers records for the past

29:44

twenty years it's like on his

29:46

own accord and it's kind of

29:48

it's just it's just amazing you

29:50

know like another just keep new

29:52

new versions keep arriving much star

29:55

chagrin so is like conquer the

29:57

world of the official said for

29:59

making Yeah, no, it's just

30:01

like I don't know

30:03

some some people's love language is

30:06

making records making dumb limited editions

30:08

Yeah, I think Jughead's

30:10

revenge though are one of the most

30:13

underrated bands of that sort of epiphat

30:15

wave of bands I never

30:17

listened to them. Oh, they are like

30:20

like an epiphat poison idea, huh,

30:23

like they do a poison idea cover even

30:26

but it does have that same sort of

30:29

kind of jerry a vibe to the

30:32

vocals even in a way, but but

30:34

definitely Southern California and They

30:37

were nearly soon. No, they were nearly soon to

30:39

oblivion by the Archie. Oh really? So

30:43

Quite the triumph but man, that's

30:45

funny. So where were the what

30:48

were the bands in natharis? Nazareth,

30:50

sorry well, it

30:52

was Like before I

30:55

saw I like before I was

30:57

in a band Brad had a straight-edge

30:59

hardcore band with Randy called nothing

31:01

said I was

31:03

all of those guys there was four of them.

31:05

They became like closest friends, you know then and

31:08

to a point now You know like three of them

31:10

were still like my best buddies Randy

31:13

was doing like kind of like a faster punk

31:15

band called the spunk Also

31:17

with like lifelong friends of mine now

31:20

So it was like nothing said in the

31:22

spunk and then I I don't know how

31:25

it happened But I got

31:27

lucky enough to start doing a band with

31:29

Brad and Randy and another buddy of mine

31:31

who like You know was into

31:33

it in like freshman

31:35

sophomore year junior year of high

31:38

school was kind of drifting And

31:40

then senior year was like done with

31:42

music, you know And that

31:44

band was called citizens unheard. That was like the

31:46

first band. I played a show with I sang

31:50

and like weirdly enough I like wrote

31:52

a bunch of the music to which like I

31:55

Haven't written like music In

31:58

many years. I Feel like. And

32:00

those guys who were clearly more experience than

32:02

me were just like I let's play some

32:05

of your songs to. It was is like

32:07

very flat huge. It gave me confidence in

32:09

a way you know, were you playing the

32:11

songs for them or reader like hardcore singer

32:14

style like that to the dad, dad and

32:16

no I haven't I had a bass guitar

32:18

okay and so I had like you know

32:20

I have I two fingers on one hand

32:23

and like two fingers on the other. You

32:25

know and I could connect. just demonstrate the

32:27

rifts and they could kind of put it

32:29

together. Lot.

32:33

It's interesting to think about it is I had

32:35

like so little. Going

32:37

on in my life at that time or

32:39

like my much the scope of my life

32:41

was like this were like to saw. Homes

32:43

were mostly about what my friends looked like.

32:46

you know it's and it wasn't intentional. But.

32:48

I'm a right The first song I wrote

32:50

was called me and Joelle look the same

32:52

and it was about how I looked similar

32:54

to jaw and it was kind of like

32:56

honestly says like a pristine song In retrospect

32:58

like the writhing is very like in the

33:01

that. You. Know stang school of

33:03

like just kind a downer like

33:05

three notes sort of thing. like

33:07

you know we're fingers first go

33:09

on the on the neck of

33:11

a guitar. like those notes. On.

33:14

But it was fun. It was like such

33:17

a blast! I loved it. I loved like

33:19

right away so comfortable singing in the band's.

33:22

It. Was great. Would. You guys like

33:24

huge guys play with Lee who would

33:26

live is your out There was a

33:29

club called Scarlets which had like a

33:31

lot a hardcore shows like I've seen.

33:33

no redeeming social value their you know

33:35

I saw like Rancour Ninety Seven A

33:37

they're a bunch floor punch but it

33:39

would also be like are just. Like

33:42

high school band swear they would try to get

33:44

you to sell tickets to play. but I feel

33:47

like I never did sell tickets. I play there

33:49

anyway so I'm not really sure. What?

33:51

Exactly in of the the the

33:53

path was performing their. Yeah.

33:55

Yeah, we just play their a whole bunch and that

33:58

was. Knows. how the only place i think We

34:00

might probably played like six shows maybe. What's

34:03

like the Ultimate Warriors came about. Would

34:05

like Digger come through and Westview? Yeah,

34:08

they didn't exist yet. They were like

34:10

give it like one or two years

34:12

and then yeah, Digger arrived for sure.

34:15

That's when Tim Heidecker I guess had his band with

34:17

all the guys that got stolen to form Digger. Really?

34:20

When he was on the podcast he said... Yeah,

34:23

because he's like from a town away from me.

34:25

So it's funny. I had no idea back then.

34:28

Yeah, he's like an Allentown dude and when I

34:30

brought up Digger he's like yeah, those guys were

34:32

all in my band and then I was actually

34:34

super pissed off because they all got stolen away

34:36

from me. You know what? Digger was great man.

34:38

He should have given up for the cause. They

34:42

have at least one solid album and

34:46

tragically the one guy died very early

34:48

on. That was his best

34:50

friend. Tim's best friend. Oh shit, Phil. He

34:54

like was the spark in Digger for sure.

34:56

Because by the time they played

34:59

Toronto, I think they played Toronto maybe a couple

35:01

times back then, he was

35:05

out of the band. It was like the hopeless era because

35:07

I think he passed away fairly early on, right? Yeah,

35:09

yeah. Yeah, they had a

35:11

song. Do you remember I Want My Hat Back? Yes. And

35:14

like that song like I

35:17

always would sing the one quiet part when

35:20

they were playing and I like would be

35:22

really proud and psyched to be like the

35:24

loud kid in the crowd. It

35:26

was just like a good time going to see them.

35:28

You knew you were going to have fun. It

35:31

felt like what

35:33

could have been obviously being a huge leap

35:36

but that was like a Blink

35:38

182 vibe of a band. By

35:41

the time I saw the lineup had changed slightly

35:43

I guess. So I remember hearing that 7-inch and

35:45

being like this is as good as the Eminem

35:48

by Blink. Yeah, I mean the

35:50

problem is like they matured. They

35:54

probably got more sensitive,

35:57

got more complex songwriting.

36:00

that'll do you in sometimes, you know,

36:02

becoming a good musician. And

36:04

it also feels like it's always the

36:06

outliers from the scene that become the

36:08

huge stars. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

36:11

Like the band that everyone's like, those guys, those,

36:13

that's, that's the band that everyone gets in.

36:15

Who's always a little bit late and

36:18

like able to bring it to a wider

36:20

audience. For sure. Yeah. It's

36:22

interesting. I'm sure, like,

36:24

obviously being on the label, when you encounter

36:26

people from Seattle that were like hardcore kids

36:29

that just did not like Nirvana.

36:33

Mmm. Yeah. Cause it's just like a completely,

36:35

obviously a completely different relationship when you're from

36:37

a place versus when you're. For sure. I

36:40

bet you're like, Oh yeah, it's kind of like that anywhere there's a

36:42

big band where. Yeah. Yeah.

36:44

Yeah. I mean, although I feel like

36:47

my area never had a big band

36:49

really, like what felt biggest to

36:51

us was Weston. I don't know if you ever, but

36:54

like they're kind of a footnote in the

36:56

greater scheme of like poppy punk,

36:58

even though I think their first

37:00

album is like one of the greatest of all

37:02

time. Like for me of pop punk, I

37:05

love that, you know, it was just so like unique

37:09

and like scrappy, but also like

37:11

a lot of

37:13

interesting thoughts. You know, the great lyrics

37:15

really, really, really resonated with me. Yeah.

37:18

They were a band that, uh,

37:22

like you can go back and listen to like it was

37:24

pop punk, but it was pop punk that you could, you

37:27

weren't like ashamed

37:29

a couple of years later. Yeah. Well, I

37:31

mean, like some of their later albums were

37:33

like, what is this like, you know,

37:35

soda shop, sock hop, like

37:38

varsity sweater, you know, like,

37:41

cause the one dude took over songwriting from

37:43

like Chuck and Dave who

37:45

were like the greatest duo, you know, and,

37:48

um, I saw Weston did a, like a reunion,

37:50

I don't know, probably

37:52

eight years ago now. And like Dave

37:54

knew who I was. And like, I

37:57

almost just shit, right. Then, you know, like I

37:59

couldn't believe. Like he was just the coolest guy,

38:01

you know what I mean? Like, so

38:04

he would always just appear. And like, I remember one

38:06

time he showed up at like a, like

38:09

a VFW show for no reason. He was

38:11

already like, well beyond that. And he was

38:13

talking about the Blearg comps. And I was

38:15

just like, man, how can

38:18

one guy be this cool? You know, like I want

38:20

to just like tail him

38:22

and listen, you know? Yeah.

38:25

Yeah. They, they felt like they, I think

38:28

it was so much about labels back then and

38:30

winding up on the right label and

38:33

they signed to Go Kart and it feels

38:35

like Go Kart was maybe not the best

38:37

fit for a lot of these bands. Cause

38:39

if they had been on a lookout or

38:41

I guess Epitaph and

38:43

Fat had such defined sound, so Lookout would have

38:46

maybe been the only place that would have made

38:48

sense. Yeah. There, there wasn't

38:50

a great place for them to go. Cause yeah.

38:53

They had like, they had like a little

38:55

bit more sophistication or like maybe smarts is

38:57

the word at first that

38:59

it wouldn't have fit with just like your

39:01

generic pop punk band that like

39:03

were kind of Nimrods, you know, like there

39:06

was something going on with them that like

39:09

adults could enjoy perhaps, you know?

39:12

I'm obsessed with like the way bands

39:15

and obviously scenes are, as we've already

39:17

touched on, like you're taking up geographically

39:19

and how on the East coast. This

39:23

pop punk still under four,

39:26

including the Midwest and the East coast, but pop

39:28

punk did have this sort of like sophistication with

39:30

a lot of these bands and they were like

39:33

smarter or. Like

39:35

lifetime, right? Lifetime, exactly. And more

39:37

connected to DIY than

39:40

the West coast bands, which were,

39:42

were just felt a lot bigger

39:44

and felt like a lot more jocular

39:46

in some ways for. Yeah.

39:49

I mean, that feels

39:51

like a reasonable

39:53

impression, you know, for sure. I

39:56

definitely related more to the East

39:59

coast bands. when a West Coast band

40:01

would come through, they did seem a little

40:03

like, you know, pro gear, pro toothed

40:05

sort of vibe. That

40:07

would be fine, but it wouldn't be like cool.

40:11

You know, I

40:13

think that's why Toronto connected

40:15

so much to that California band thing,

40:17

because it is a music industry town

40:20

and there was a defined pathway

40:23

to success by playing this music.

40:25

Like in America and California,

40:27

if you were, if you were a band and you

40:29

got really popular on Epitaph or Fat, you could get

40:31

a song on K-Rock and then you

40:33

could kind of, you know, launch it from

40:35

there. But in

40:37

Toronto kind of have the same thing. Like you could get a

40:39

song on much music. Like there was a, uh, whereas

40:42

like you're saying, there's not really a place for

40:44

these bands to go in Pennsylvania that

40:47

are playing this kind of music or in

40:49

New Jersey or even in New York.

40:52

Yeah. And I mean, and they would also be playing with,

40:54

you know, more

40:57

like East coast, metallic, like revelation

40:59

records bands at the time too,

41:01

you know, or like born

41:04

against or, you know, like it was just kind

41:06

of more geographic. Like you just get used to

41:08

playing with people, even if your bands don't sound

41:10

alike, like, okay, here's the

41:12

bouncing souls playing, you know, like, cause

41:15

we're all kind of live near each other, you know,

41:17

and we're on like, you don't really do big tours,

41:20

maybe you do sometimes, but not in the

41:22

same, it was more about like fostering a

41:24

scene, I think. And there's also

41:27

like, I think there was

41:29

more of a fest circuit too, for a while

41:31

where I know

41:33

I was pausing numbers being kind of like,

41:35

I guess the one. Yeah. That was by

41:37

the time like I was playing. Yeah. We

41:39

played positive numbers a couple of times, Wilkes

41:41

bear fest. Yeah. For sure. That and the

41:43

like more than music and

41:45

yeah. Whatever the date one

41:47

was that used to happen before that mud

41:49

fest maybe or something like that. Or no,

41:52

there's a few of those fast. Yeah. Like

41:54

kind of moment more than you said more

41:56

than music, right? He knows one in Columbus.

41:58

Yeah. He knows Columbus. Fest. I

42:01

mean, they're both the same thing. Who knows?

42:04

Detroit Fest. And

42:06

that was the circuit, right? Like

42:08

you'd go, bands would go

42:10

and play these fasts, you could try and go to as

42:12

many as you could, kids that were able to would follow

42:14

it around like the Grateful Dead. Right,

42:16

right. Yeah, yeah. No, that

42:18

was a cool thing. I mean, I

42:21

also just remember that would, shows that would

42:23

be like, starts at noon

42:26

ends at like 9pm. And it'll just

42:28

be like, I guess it's a fest,

42:30

but it's like not really, you know,

42:32

it's not the way we think

42:34

of Fest today, where it's all branded and like

42:36

there's passes and it's a full weekend, just kind

42:39

of like a long show, you know. It's

42:42

also weird to think of this in the terms

42:44

of like, no one was

42:46

making money on this shit at all. Yeah, yeah.

42:49

And the motivation to do it was just because

42:51

you loved it. And I'm sure they're that obviously happens

42:54

with a lot of festivals now, but there's also like

42:57

an upside financially for the bands, potentially

42:59

for the people doing the festival. And

43:02

that's what you're saying. Like it's a lot more

43:04

pro, there's backstage passes, there's potentially sponsorship on some

43:06

of these things. And

43:09

it's interesting to think of something where it

43:11

was only done for the love

43:13

of doing this thing. And

43:15

no one really even had a great time

43:17

at these events. Like you're saying, it's like

43:20

12 hours of a lot

43:22

of super shitty bands. And

43:24

I mean, looking back, I remember feeling like,

43:26

oh man, this is massive,

43:28

like this fest, this is sick, there's all these

43:30

bands here. And it ends up probably

43:33

being like 80 people, you know,

43:35

like at the event, but

43:37

it felt so larger than that, you

43:39

know. I think

43:41

it's because also back

43:44

then, it felt

43:46

so much smaller in general,

43:48

this whole scene felt as

43:52

much as there were divisions, right? Like Pophunks

43:54

would play with the Revelation sounding bands

43:57

because of that many of us. And

44:01

the I think

44:03

that's the thing about the when there is an

44:05

upside to it and there is a path to

44:07

success and doing it It becomes a lot more It

44:10

changes the motivations. Yeah. Yeah. No,

44:13

it's definitely I mean,

44:15

it's fulfilling to be in a

44:17

band nowadays, but You

44:20

know, there may be some of that magic is

44:22

a little bit missing, you know compared Yeah,

44:24

but of course that could just be being 16 years

44:27

old, you know versus being

44:29

older It

44:31

felt it felt like back then also

44:34

there was a you'd

44:36

make an unspoken commitment to this thing like

44:38

the The idea that you

44:40

were gonna get the job as the editor of max rock

44:42

and roll and it's basically like a vow of poverty That

44:45

you were never allowed to make money doing

44:47

this full-time job of editing this Right

44:50

credibly influential magazine that had

44:52

incredible distribution But you

44:55

could not make money doing this thing.

44:57

That's the caveat to I Guess

45:00

it also speaks to like everyone was kind

45:02

of doing all right back You

45:04

know like I think it was

45:06

a lot easier to kind of scrape by

45:09

or maybe we were all still living with

45:11

our parents Or you know some combination but

45:14

Yeah, I feel like it's way harder to

45:17

be 20 years old now and try to

45:19

just follow a passion that makes you know

45:21

money you know like I Don't

45:23

know just just the price of everything

45:26

going up for whatever just like, you

45:28

know You can't just like casually go to college

45:30

now. It's so absurdly expensive, you

45:33

know, there's just less free time for

45:35

kids And

45:38

everything's monetized or

45:40

potentially and it's

45:45

Like and I there's always that risk of

45:47

sounding like the old person complaining that it's

45:49

worse now I think it's not it's just

45:51

so different and just I just think it's

45:53

worse for the kids like they have it

45:55

worse You know like I mean,

45:57

I guess we knew about climate change when we were

45:59

so 2017 but like how

46:02

much were you thinking you know like yeah,

46:04

if like a political bands telling me to

46:06

recycle I'll be like yeah, I'll recycle but

46:08

it doesn't feel like the

46:10

state of emergency like it does now

46:12

that you know We clearly work during

46:14

it off here anymore. Yeah, exactly You

46:16

know like it was really I think

46:18

we're already like reaping what we so

46:20

just recently And I

46:23

feel bad for like young kids who didn't get to have

46:25

that like Carefree time,

46:27

you know, it felt

46:29

like a lot of it too was Prophesizing

46:34

this era that we're in now through

46:36

this doom prediction thing and we're

46:39

dancing having a good time singing along like

46:41

yeah, you know whether there's gonna be a

46:43

fascist president in place and In

46:47

Canada, there's like all sorts of shit here. So I'm

46:49

not pretending like it's only in America and now

46:52

we're in that That moment where it's

46:54

like damn this is exactly what Jell-O was

46:56

warning us about Yeah,

47:00

I mean like I don't know I never like

47:03

was a kid who was scared of like getting

47:05

shot You know what? I mean? Like I

47:07

knew like some person to have a gun

47:10

But I wasn't reading in the paper of like,

47:12

you know random shootings. It's all so much worse

47:15

So I feel bad. I hope the kids

47:17

today can like Her severe

47:19

and I also don't hold it against them

47:22

for wanting to get paid, you know I

47:24

feel like that's like an interesting development, you

47:27

know Like seeing a young hardcore

47:29

band put out like a tip jar or you

47:31

know something that would have gotten them like dismissed

47:33

from the scene in 1997 and Now

47:37

like, you know charging maybe a premium

47:39

on their band shirts or something But

47:42

like they've got to you know, like

47:44

whereas we had like more of a

47:46

luxury Maybe like me speaking is like

47:48

middle-class Suburban of

47:50

kid of the 90s, you know

47:54

Like we could just go to a thrift store buy

47:56

a bag of shirts for like a quarter each

47:58

and screen them, you know like it

48:00

was easier if you knew what

48:02

to do, you know. There was

48:05

also a commitment to poverty. Like

48:10

you will pay no more than this much for this

48:12

record. Yeah, yeah. You will. Just trying to keep it

48:14

like we don't want this to become a money thing.

48:16

Exactly, yeah. And I want to say a commitment to

48:18

poverty, but like you

48:21

hear these stories about Fugazi back

48:24

then, living on beans on

48:27

like rice and playing these $5

48:29

shows. And they clearly made

48:31

money. There was money being made at some

48:33

point, but never, they

48:35

never exploited it to the extent

48:38

that they could have obviously. And

48:41

that was the model. That was like, all

48:44

right, that's the Chase model or, or

48:47

it was Los Crudos

48:49

or it was like all these bands that were like,

48:52

you do it because you fucking love it. And

48:54

yeah, yeah. Yeah. I hope there's

48:56

still some aspect of that just doing it

48:59

for the love because that does seem to

49:01

be like lost

49:03

a little bit maybe because it's so like,

49:05

there's so many roadblocks to just doing it

49:08

in general. You know, like there's

49:10

a million bands out there and they're all

49:12

their musics for free right now. Like that's

49:15

tough. You know what I

49:17

mean? Like, how do you

49:19

get heard? I don't know. How do you, I

49:22

don't know. It's, it

49:25

is, well,

49:27

like it was easier back then because

49:29

there was no attention

49:33

on it in a lot of ways.

49:35

So when there was, yeah, so it

49:37

wasn't was attention put on something. Everyone

49:39

looked, there was, and this isn't just music, like film

49:41

had this too, where there's almost

49:44

like layers of a critical sphere

49:46

where you could get written about

49:48

in Max and Rock and Roll or your

49:51

band maybe even get written about in Spin or

49:54

it could get written about in Any

49:56

number of other places. You could show up in a weird place

49:58

in media and. That

50:00

would be like a huge metric for

50:02

success or. I'm. Or for some

50:04

we got rid about Max Rock and

50:06

Roll Dislike the the level of pride

50:08

that I had that omaha best feeling

50:10

right in the name in all caps.

50:12

The way enough to if this is

50:14

at the end when they liked something

50:17

and you're like holy. This. Is

50:19

important this seals so what like

50:21

that is? That was all the

50:23

success. A. Band year to achieve

50:26

and I feel. That.

50:28

That doesn't exist with assume or film threat. To

50:30

write about your like weird self made movie and

50:32

put you on the cover of film for a

50:35

magazine or to get some air. It just doesn't

50:37

exist in that way. It's

50:39

all. it's all or nothing. And then there's

50:42

only so goes on. So the I watched it

50:44

all the time. Obscene. every city. Yeah.

50:46

I mean I don't know, like I feel like. It's.

50:48

So easy to do a a one

50:51

person bedroom punk project now just with

50:53

the technology that exists were made to

50:55

be, you feel a little less pride

50:57

in successfully putting out a demo now

51:00

than like. In Nineteen Ninety

51:02

Six when you had to her of friends

51:04

and like someone had to know what they

51:06

were doing you know someone at the know

51:09

what a four track is and might how

51:11

to operate and unlike to duplicate to said

51:13

slate that was all very thrilling as a

51:16

felt like you know a secret portal being

51:18

unlocked and then descended and have someone else

51:20

dig it it like. Does. The

51:22

greatest thing like the first music I

51:25

ever released was on. A.

51:27

Cassette compilation that Brad and I put

51:29

together on of disliked. It was kind

51:31

of like a mixtape because there was

51:34

also just random tracks that we liked.

51:36

like you know they got a body

51:38

count saw was hours for this on

51:40

here anyway other is like a bootleg

51:43

live western song and then just various

51:45

bands that were just us you know

51:47

like in different configurations and I are

51:49

we just made them like pep Me

51:51

you know, photocopy them hands through the

51:54

made a booklet and brought them to

51:56

double to occur. on the record shovel

51:58

roads you want to sell the And like

52:00

he did and just going back and

52:03

seeing that the pile went from like five of

52:05

them to like three And just

52:07

be like who are those two people that fought

52:09

this like this is so great,

52:11

you know, like so much fun It's

52:14

also the only place where you can kind

52:16

of just do that was

52:19

punk like that you get a kid and be

52:21

like fuck let's make a tape and Put

52:23

it out and people are gonna buy it and

52:26

respond to it or people might even review my

52:28

band People took it seriously. That was it was

52:30

amazing You know that would felt so good was

52:32

like wow you you liked this thing

52:34

that I put into the world, you know and

52:37

We just truly just put it into it from

52:39

our like bedrooms in our parents houses, you know,

52:41

like oh That was the

52:44

best It's kind of amazing that

52:46

the three of you have had this sort of creative collaboration That

52:49

obviously piss jeans is a very long-running band.

52:51

But yeah, this goes back to Pre-ultimate

52:54

warriors like this has been for sure

52:57

and it's rare to be able to have on

53:00

any level an artistic project

53:03

with collaborators that goes on

53:06

For like five years. No, I feel very

53:08

lucky also like You

53:11

know what helps me feel lucky is if I ever

53:13

try to play music with other people, you know And

53:15

you're like, oh, this is cool or like this

53:17

is awkward or this is good But it's still

53:20

not like that like deep bond

53:22

that I feel lucky to have with

53:24

like anyone, you know I think

53:27

that's cool John Wurster when he was

53:29

on one time talked about the

53:31

internal metronome that

53:35

Songwriters have like when you Whatever

53:38

he's like because he's obviously collaborate with so many

53:40

people over the years that yeah every songwriter he

53:43

says has like an internal metronome that's that's the

53:45

way they write and it's very unique to that

53:47

person and Over time

53:49

working with the same people and obviously

53:51

with fucked up It's been slightly less

53:53

time than yourselves, but I

53:56

don't think I can it's very

53:58

weird when I collaborate with other people I

54:00

go into other situations because I just don't

54:02

feel I Don't

54:05

feel as comfortable. Yeah, I mean it's good to

54:07

not feel as calm I mean it's good to

54:09

like remember what you had like it's a reminder

54:11

You know of like how good you have it

54:13

kind of how easy things

54:15

come with other people. Yeah Yeah,

54:19

no, I feel lucky we we we

54:21

got really into like self mythologizing

54:24

at an early age too because because

54:26

we all lived in Nazareth and and

54:30

You know against our better judgment. We were

54:32

all big fans of the one life crew

54:34

album They

54:38

They, you know called it called Cleveland,

54:41

Cleveland And so we

54:43

were all like about NASA and everything was

54:45

like that So it was just like the

54:47

NASA records compilation, you know, and that was

54:49

like here We have an identity here We

54:52

have like a crew all of a sudden,

54:54

you know And it was always like even

54:56

that it was also like tongue-in-cheek like we're

54:59

nothing like one-life crew These guys are

55:01

idiots, but it's funny and also like

55:03

the riffs are good and you know

55:06

We've got lots of learning to do in

55:08

our lives ahead. You know, it's

55:11

amazing what a

55:13

moment crime-ridden society was

55:17

in hardcore it was

55:19

small enough now that that

55:21

record had ripple effects like when that

55:24

don't mess with a small-town song or

55:26

something came out like the level of

55:30

just ripples that that thing caused

55:32

and obviously

55:34

the lyrics are heinous

55:38

On a few sure but especially the

55:40

one super abhorrent. Yeah. Yeah I

55:42

mean, I just think like I was

55:45

just so ignorant to like I'm just

55:47

like not knowing about like geography,

55:49

you know, I mean I'm like 15 years old and Yeah,

55:55

I guess I knew it was like a stupid

55:57

band, you know, but that's kind of all I

55:59

knew I probably couldn't have argued

56:01

my points why they were dumb, you

56:04

know, effectively. But

56:07

yeah, we just like, and it was just funny because we

56:09

were like, the least tough guys,

56:12

you know, so it's like, yeah, let's like,

56:14

talk like how One Life Crew talks

56:16

about like, you know, shortening

56:19

the name of a town, you know. I'm

56:22

sure there were people that took that

56:24

record seriously, but everyone I knew either

56:27

hated the record or liked

56:29

it because they thought it was ridiculous

56:31

and slayer-like. I

56:34

mean, yeah, I don't know. But

56:38

it was like, Mike from

56:40

Fucked Up was listed as a fake ario

56:43

on their website. Oh, really? For like, he's

56:45

one of the original One Life Crew boycott

56:47

people. Wow, good for him. It

56:50

was because it was, but like, I find it

56:53

the influence of that record on people

56:55

that listen to it and thought the

56:57

risks were super heavy. Like, I'm sure that

57:00

got me into confront on some level and

57:02

confronts one of my favorite bands all the

57:04

time. And then also though, inspired in another

57:08

way, like it inspired by how many

57:10

people it motivated to get

57:14

to react to it, to try

57:16

and shut that record down. Like the way it

57:18

affected victory, the way it affected

57:21

integrity. I was loved. I was

57:23

like a big fan of Heart Attack, of course. The

57:26

zine. And like, yeah, that's like,

57:28

it gave a great fodder for

57:31

Heart Attack to explain why One

57:33

Life Crew was so stupid. So

57:35

it was like, helpful for me

57:37

as a very ignorant person

57:40

to see the argument laid out for the first

57:42

time. It

57:45

also made, I think

57:47

hardcore, it's probably cliche at this point, but

57:49

it's such a pre-cursor to the

57:51

world we're living in now. Where it does kind

57:53

of illustrate what the way social

57:56

media functions too, where obviously

57:59

there's a. or sorry, not obviously, but

58:01

there's going to be a backlash to something

58:03

and then there's going to be a pro

58:06

side to it. Both of

58:08

them ultimately feed these sort of content

58:10

machines and are used

58:12

to generating income for the

58:15

platforms that they're happening on. Not

58:17

necessarily that hard attack was motivated by that.

58:19

Clint McArd was probably not making buckets of

58:22

money off the One Life crew, but you

58:25

did watch that unfold. It was a reason to

58:27

buy that magazine to see how they would react

58:29

to this thing that

58:31

happened. Yeah,

58:33

and also I just

58:36

appreciated heart attacks, viewpoints

58:38

I wouldn't know about otherwise.

58:41

Because I was truly

58:43

just barely not a little boy at

58:45

the time, just so

58:48

young and I didn't

58:50

learn anything in school. So

58:52

it was really helpful to have

58:54

these things to kind of teach me or

58:57

give some basic guidelines

59:00

that hopefully

59:02

will continue to question my own beliefs as

59:05

I get older and smarter. That

59:08

news page in MRR, where they'd have that

59:10

little tiny news section in

59:12

the magazine that I would be like, I guess I

59:14

got to read this. It's

59:17

here. But it would be way more

59:20

informative than what I was learning about in

59:23

school, in current events, class or whatever.

59:26

And way more informative than what I'd see

59:28

on the news or pick up in discussions

59:30

from my parents or things like that. It

59:33

was actually incredible

59:35

news that we were able to kind of access to. And

59:38

like you're saying, incredible thoughts and learning

59:41

from bands like Propagandi as much as you're learning

59:43

from these other bands that have come up. So

59:46

far that these were portals

59:48

to information that you wouldn't otherwise have

59:50

access to as just normal kids. Yeah,

59:52

it was just like a very apolitical

59:54

time for how everything, like if

59:56

I pick up my mail, that's

59:59

like a political act. at this point, you

1:00:01

know, where like walk the dog. But now

1:00:03

back then it was like nothing was political.

1:00:05

It was very strange to think about at

1:00:07

least, you know, where I was living, no

1:00:09

one talked about anything, you know, like, I've

1:00:12

got, I've got a set of golf

1:00:14

war trading cards that I bought as

1:00:17

a kid and on a trip to

1:00:19

Florida that I

1:00:21

picked up. We all knew that was like,

1:00:23

huh? Okay. Yeah, that was

1:00:25

like the extent of it. Right? Like, yeah,

1:00:27

there was not even a pop culture response

1:00:31

to it. Like it's pretty raging. It's the machine.

1:00:33

So the only place

1:00:35

there was seemingly a reaction to it

1:00:37

was in places like punk or in

1:00:39

sort of, right?

1:00:41

I guess, intelligentsia circles type thing. Yeah,

1:00:43

which were like hard to find. You have

1:00:45

to know someone for sure. You have

1:00:48

to pay for these universities like the,

1:00:50

or you'd have to be in these

1:00:52

circles. Whereas punk made this

1:00:54

stuff accessible for anyone that was able to

1:00:56

pay to come into the show

1:00:58

or find a way in on the guest

1:01:00

list or help load gear or whatever, or

1:01:02

get a tape off your friend of this

1:01:04

one album. Like it really was one

1:01:07

of the few places that were speaking truth or

1:01:10

that you had access to kind of these truths

1:01:12

of that. And it was cool that like, uh,

1:01:14

one life crew kind of got kicked out. You

1:01:16

know, I was like, Oh, this is cool. Like

1:01:18

there were repercussions here. Like this is good to

1:01:20

know and see, you know, that like you can't

1:01:23

just be like a bigot, you know? Like,

1:01:25

all right. Yeah, it was

1:01:28

a mobile. It was a, a

1:01:30

mobilization and a very early moment

1:01:32

on hardcore internet too. Yeah.

1:01:34

Where these kids could also go on

1:01:36

message boards and there were

1:01:39

these websites and I guess still BBS is maybe

1:01:41

that people were going on and talking about this

1:01:43

sort of stuff, which I'm

1:01:46

for myself a little bit later on. And

1:01:48

maybe for yourself too, it was also

1:01:50

incredible for when you finally were

1:01:53

able to put all these pieces together and figure

1:01:55

out not only all

1:01:57

of Jello by Africa's bands, but all the

1:02:00

random people that were in

1:02:02

other random obscure bands and demo tapes

1:02:04

only and it was a hardcore

1:02:08

internet was an incredible

1:02:11

awakening for record collectors I think. Yeah

1:02:14

well that was also like a tantalizing

1:02:16

time because it's like here's a list

1:02:18

of rare punk bands but

1:02:21

you can't hear them because mp3s

1:02:23

don't exist so write this down

1:02:25

and you know

1:02:27

like bring this list to someone. Like

1:02:30

I remember early on when I was

1:02:32

probably like 16, 17 and those

1:02:35

bootleg like Japanese hardcore

1:02:37

CDs came out like gauze and

1:02:39

like gizm and you

1:02:41

know like those showed up

1:02:43

and it was like oh my god I

1:02:45

can like actually hear this music you

1:02:48

know like what an

1:02:50

incredible like okay you

1:02:52

buy gauze all by gizm and like we'll

1:02:54

just you know listen to them together and

1:02:56

just like try to make heads or tails

1:02:58

of this like there was just

1:03:00

no other way. Well because even

1:03:04

then those records were ungodly expensive if you

1:03:06

could yeah yeah like detestation was like a

1:03:08

200 record like a hundred I'm

1:03:10

like where where would you like this

1:03:12

was like pre-eBay you're done for you

1:03:15

know. Yeah like unless you knew someone

1:03:17

that had gone to Japan or was

1:03:19

tapped into it felt like the

1:03:21

inner circle of the inner

1:03:23

circle were the Japanese hardcore. Yeah I

1:03:25

didn't even I had

1:03:28

no clue it's funny like the reason

1:03:31

that like Brad got into

1:03:33

hardcore and consequently I did you

1:03:36

know via him is he had a

1:03:38

neighbor who was like his

1:03:40

name was Carl he was probably like in his early

1:03:43

30s when we were like 16

1:03:46

and for some reason Carl was just like oh hey

1:03:48

my 16 year old neighbor um

1:03:50

here's a tape with united blood and capitalist

1:03:52

casualties on it you know and Brad had

1:03:54

it like loved it and then like shared

1:03:56

it with all of us so we're like

1:03:58

oh we love this. too, you

1:04:01

know, but it was like from an older guy

1:04:03

that was just in the neighborhood who somehow

1:04:05

had this like impeccable taste in

1:04:08

like, you know, 1994 or whatever. Well

1:04:11

that means he would have probably still be

1:04:13

into shit if he was into CapCas, right?

1:04:15

Because that would have been temporary, right? For

1:04:17

sure, yeah. And like, he was like the

1:04:19

first person I ever knew who was like

1:04:21

a misfits collector, you know, like, and

1:04:23

he probably got it, you know, really cheap back then

1:04:25

because I don't know who was, you

1:04:27

know, there was definitely a fan base in like 93, but

1:04:30

it wasn't like it is now,

1:04:32

you know, by any means. Hey everyone,

1:04:34

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1:04:37

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50% off and thank

1:06:12

you to factor for supporting the show

1:06:14

and feeding me and the kids. Well,

1:06:19

yeah, it was like, thanks to this one random guy who

1:06:21

like, I don't know, he's

1:06:23

been to like a piss jeans show

1:06:25

in the past five years, you know, like

1:06:27

just kind of a friendly neighborhood savior,

1:06:29

you know, right? Random luck.

1:06:32

Yeah. It really depended on who was

1:06:34

around you for the type of bands you would

1:06:36

get into. And because

1:06:39

like we looked at like Simon Harvey living up

1:06:41

here, you know, back then,

1:06:43

I think he was doing discussion back then,

1:06:45

but he was such an early Japanese

1:06:48

hardcore obsessive that he would

1:06:50

distro a chief act records or he would

1:06:52

distro stuff from straight up.

1:06:54

So you could always kind of, I

1:06:57

feel lucky about it, but like you have that stuff and

1:06:59

I guess in the same way, well, it

1:07:02

feels like there's so many deep heads in kind of your

1:07:04

neck of the woods, but double decker, just

1:07:06

how many people were heavy

1:07:09

duty record collectors. And early on

1:07:11

that place, that place really raised

1:07:13

me musically, you know, and, and

1:07:15

Brad too, but like, yeah,

1:07:17

I just, I just closed

1:07:20

that. I'm sure, you know, like in December, man,

1:07:22

that was like a gut punch that

1:07:24

I've like come to terms with cause things

1:07:26

change, but that was just such a big

1:07:28

part of like all of

1:07:30

my musical discoveries for like a very

1:07:32

large chunk of like my most impressionable

1:07:35

life, you know, like teenage years,

1:07:38

twenties and such. Like I

1:07:40

remember going there once and that was the first time I

1:07:43

heard Hi-Racks, you know, they had like

1:07:45

a Hi-Racks record and like

1:07:47

that just blew, like I don't think I've ever

1:07:49

been blown away by music more than that moment,

1:07:51

like standing there when, uh,

1:07:53

was it Kenyon's vocals come in

1:07:56

and like, it was

1:07:58

just so sick. Or what was it again? I'm blanking

1:08:00

on to pen, pen, oh fuck. Yeah.

1:08:06

But regardless, it

1:08:08

was like, you know, it'll

1:08:10

forever resonate that moment of like,

1:08:14

man, I just entered another world just

1:08:16

like two seconds ago, you know? Yeah.

1:08:18

It was, I didn't go

1:08:21

till way after this point, like into the

1:08:23

early 2000s or I guess

1:08:26

it was like 2000, something that I

1:08:28

went and it was. Just

1:08:31

to this day, like some of the, one

1:08:33

of the greatest selections of records for sale

1:08:35

that I've ever seen. Always be changed. And

1:08:37

I'm like, fairly priced. And

1:08:40

Jamie, who was like, after

1:08:43

like a few early years, there was Jamie and

1:08:45

Amy and Amy like left and it was just

1:08:47

Jamie for God, like, you know,

1:08:49

at least 20 years or something. He was just like the

1:08:52

sweetest guy, you know, such a good friend. Like

1:08:55

just for it to be into records and

1:08:57

to like not rip people off ever. I

1:09:00

guess it's you shouldn't get like a gold star

1:09:02

for that, but somehow you also should, you know,

1:09:04

because he was just the most trustworthy

1:09:07

guy who will also turn you on to stuff

1:09:09

you never knew about, you know, like the first

1:09:11

time like, have you heard of

1:09:13

killed by death? You know, all these things that

1:09:15

were just like, I probably

1:09:17

would have found out some other time, but

1:09:19

like he really helped, you know,

1:09:21

and then the random collections. He'd get

1:09:23

in where he doesn't know about

1:09:25

like MERS bow, but he got like

1:09:27

a bunch of these records in and like, I could

1:09:30

sift through them myself, you know, like

1:09:32

some other guy I know who's a big

1:09:34

weird creep, like in the best

1:09:36

way says I should check out Arab

1:09:38

on radar. So like, all right, let me listen to this

1:09:40

man. You know what I mean? Like just

1:09:43

endless, so many wonderful

1:09:45

moments of like discovering stuff

1:09:47

by being in there in person and

1:09:49

seeing what shakes out, you know. Yeah,

1:09:53

there's a special

1:09:56

place for record stores like

1:09:58

that that had a. Yeah, like

1:10:01

a purity to it. And maybe

1:10:04

that's the thing that it couldn't survive in this world

1:10:06

where... No, it was surviving.

1:10:08

Great. He just got sick of it. It was

1:10:10

like... Oh, really? Yeah, he

1:10:12

just... Good to hear that. It's weird. Like,

1:10:15

when I went there for the first, I guess, for the

1:10:17

first, like, 15 years of its existence, I will, like, roughly

1:10:19

estimate it was like a punk and hardcore, like, hub. Like,

1:10:22

it was the meeting place. It

1:10:24

was just, like, the sun in

1:10:27

that, like, you know, orbit. And

1:10:29

then in the past few years, it

1:10:32

became like, there's just like this rash of,

1:10:34

like, norm

1:10:36

weirdos who were just into, like, records,

1:10:38

you know? Like, oh, Amy

1:10:41

Winehouse box sets, you

1:10:44

know? Or like, ACDC,

1:10:46

like, new remastered, like,

1:10:48

just stuff that's like, all right,

1:10:50

I guess. But totally

1:10:53

divorced from, like, this just active,

1:10:56

new, current, like, modern

1:10:59

hardcore that's happening right now, you

1:11:01

know? Like, the focus shifted. Even

1:11:03

though those records were still there, it was

1:11:05

just like the people that inhabited the shop

1:11:07

changed. Like the age... It

1:11:10

went up from, like, you know, a median age

1:11:12

of, like, 19 to, like, 65 somehow, you know?

1:11:17

It's like being at a record fair. Yeah, yeah,

1:11:19

really... And I mean, the reason he was

1:11:21

thriving is because it's like, best prices, got

1:11:24

in tons of cool stuff. So

1:11:27

you know, so knowledgeable and comfortable to

1:11:29

go there. But yeah, I miss

1:11:31

the, like, punk meeting house feel of, like,

1:11:33

you don't know who you're going to see in there.

1:11:36

Maybe like, oh, maybe those tear

1:11:38

it up and down in flames guys will

1:11:40

be, like, in town and we'll, like, kind

1:11:42

of look at each other and, like, maybe

1:11:44

say hi because we're, like, aware

1:11:46

of each other but not, like, friends

1:11:48

yet, you know? Like, it

1:11:51

was cool when it was, you know, oh man,

1:11:53

like, hot water music is randomly in town, is

1:11:55

that them? Yeah. I

1:11:57

miss that, that little bit of magic, you

1:11:59

know? because that was super fun. It

1:12:02

was the place you had to make that trip

1:12:04

to. When you were in that area, you'd

1:12:07

always drive to Allentown to

1:12:09

check out. Yeah, because

1:12:11

it was

1:12:14

so discouraged too, I think, in

1:12:16

Seattle a little bit later too, kind of had

1:12:18

that reputation where you would go to these places

1:12:20

because there's no other place to get these records.

1:12:23

Like you go on eBay by some of these,

1:12:25

I guess later on, but they

1:12:28

were never as fair price, but there's also that

1:12:30

music discovery side where you're going to hear about

1:12:32

something you had no idea about. And there

1:12:34

was like a happening scene

1:12:36

in the area when I was like

1:12:38

a teenager and in my 20s, like

1:12:41

there were shows with bands from all

1:12:43

over the world coming through, like on

1:12:45

a DIY level, all the

1:12:47

time, like multiple venues. It

1:12:50

was great. It's amazing

1:12:53

how many cities and smaller

1:12:55

cities and smaller towns around that

1:12:58

area could sustain

1:13:00

vibrant hardcore shows

1:13:02

and had completely

1:13:04

unique scenes with different kids and

1:13:06

different bands that geographically

1:13:09

are like on top of each other. Like

1:13:11

how many little separate scenes there are in

1:13:13

Pennsylvania. Yeah, I mean

1:13:15

like before my time, there

1:13:17

were shows with like bold and war

1:13:19

zone all the time. That

1:13:22

was pretty commonplace for like kind of

1:13:25

the second wave

1:13:27

hardcore bands to roll through and

1:13:29

like play banger shows where

1:13:31

people went off. It

1:13:34

had that like history and continued,

1:13:36

and I don't know about now, I haven't lived

1:13:38

there in quite some time.

1:13:41

So hopefully there's like kids doing stuff that

1:13:43

someone like me would have no clue about,

1:13:45

but it did feel to

1:13:47

like it kind of, you

1:13:50

know, like people moved away and

1:13:52

then things change. When

1:13:56

Elgin was on the podcast from

1:13:58

Righteous Jams and then And

1:14:01

I guess back then it was Wrecking Crew. He

1:14:03

talked about Wrecking Crew playing the show there one

1:14:05

time with all these New York hardcore bands. It

1:14:07

was kind of like the end of

1:14:09

the New York Boston beef that day because

1:14:12

they had to fight like a trillion Nazis

1:14:14

that showed up at Allentown at that show.

1:14:16

Yeah, that was such an issue. Yeah, I

1:14:19

was going to say, was this still an issue that you guys had to deal with

1:14:21

when you were going to shows? Like peripherally,

1:14:24

but they weren't interested in

1:14:26

us 15 year olds, you

1:14:28

know, and like,

1:14:32

yeah, they just weren't coming to those shows. Or if

1:14:34

they were like, everyone would be

1:14:36

ready and there would be like one

1:14:38

of them who would like hang out

1:14:40

outside and then leave, you know, like

1:14:42

I never felt threatened

1:14:44

by Nazis, although you always

1:14:46

knew they were around kind

1:14:49

of. And then by

1:14:51

the time I was in my 20s, I really don't think

1:14:53

they were around, you know,

1:14:55

like they just, it was

1:14:57

like true DIY, like crust

1:14:59

punk scene or like noise

1:15:02

and like, you know, avant-garde, weird

1:15:04

experimental stuff. And there was no

1:15:06

time or place for like Nazis to really

1:15:09

show up in those scenes. I probably was

1:15:11

just a little bit young. You

1:15:14

know, if I was like six years old or I

1:15:16

would have had my share, but they kind of just

1:15:18

died off for the most part. Yeah.

1:15:20

I think it was kind of the same way in Toronto. There's

1:15:22

a couple of shows I can think of where it was a

1:15:25

problem. And for the

1:15:27

most part, though, the bunch of fucking goofs kind of beat

1:15:29

them all up. And I guess that's the thing. There

1:15:31

was the generation before that

1:15:33

fought them out of the scene or

1:15:35

by this point they were just weren't into the

1:15:37

music anymore. It didn't feel like it was an

1:15:39

act of recruiting ground, but it

1:15:41

does seem to die out just in time

1:15:43

for, I guess, mainstream fascism to start. Yeah,

1:15:45

right. Terrible.

1:15:48

No, but like, yeah, I was

1:15:51

lucky to not have to like ever

1:15:53

really worry about that. You know, there

1:15:56

would be more about like cops coming to like

1:15:59

shut it down. that wasn't too too

1:16:01

often. So

1:16:04

how long after this sort of first band is Ultimate

1:16:07

Warriors get going? Like immediately,

1:16:09

you know, like, it

1:16:11

probably felt like a long time, but this is

1:16:13

all like a span of like eight months or

1:16:15

something, you know? Yeah. Yeah, we kind

1:16:17

of just got we got like a similar crew. I don't know

1:16:19

what we were, you know,

1:16:21

you can only listen to so much power violence

1:16:24

before you want to try it yourself. And

1:16:26

that's kind of what we did. We loved like the

1:16:29

idea of two lead vocalists like that seemed

1:16:31

like, all right, this is a gimmick that's

1:16:34

like pretty cool, you know, like, no

1:16:36

one else really knows about this yet around

1:16:39

here. So we're gonna do it, you know?

1:16:42

Who was the inspiration, do you think, for you

1:16:44

on the two vocalists? Because I'm obsessed with the two

1:16:46

vocalist format for a band

1:16:48

that existed in the 90s. Yeah, like, I

1:16:50

mean, a lot of the bands we liked had

1:16:53

multiple vocalists doing like, you know, or

1:16:55

at least multiple vocals, like, I don't

1:16:57

know how many vocalists man is the

1:16:59

bastard had, but they had a lot

1:17:01

of different vocal sounds, you know, like

1:17:03

spaz had all three guys with their

1:17:05

like distinctive voices. And, you

1:17:08

know, I don't even like forced expression

1:17:10

or like pretentious assholes, some like smaller

1:17:13

bands were like, all right, I like that there's multiple

1:17:15

guys. And like, let's

1:17:18

do that. There's also like we had enough friends

1:17:20

to fill out like

1:17:22

guitar bass drums, and then also

1:17:24

have two singers. So because

1:17:27

there's also that band from PA, that's the

1:17:30

pre Atari band, I think it's called blinded.

1:17:33

And they had to blindside. Is it blindside?

1:17:35

They had two singers. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1:17:38

Who like we're out of my radar,

1:17:40

which is funny, they were just like four

1:17:42

years older and like a few towns

1:17:44

over. But it was

1:17:46

it was so regional, then that

1:17:49

you wouldn't necessarily know what was

1:17:51

happening. Yeah, I personally didn't I'm

1:17:53

sure someone in our like crew did that

1:17:55

was aware, but no, we felt like we

1:17:58

were just ripping off like power. You

1:18:00

know, like we're trying to do that. It

1:18:03

feels like that format is going to come back at

1:18:05

some point too for bands. I

1:18:07

mean, it's appealing. I don't know. Two

1:18:10

of anything can be interesting,

1:18:12

like, you know, seized with like

1:18:14

two bassists, right? Like, all

1:18:16

right, let's see what two bassists can do, you

1:18:18

know, or like, it

1:18:21

opens, it opens up possibilities, you

1:18:23

know? As a lead

1:18:26

singer though, doesn't it, or

1:18:28

did it stress you out back then, the

1:18:30

parts where you just have to be, like, what do you

1:18:32

do when you're not singing? Oh,

1:18:34

like, well, that was like, you just like jump into the

1:18:37

crowd, you know? Like, it was like, I

1:18:39

feel like a lot of what

1:18:41

I was doing back then, singing, I felt

1:18:44

like I had created it, like completely

1:18:47

unaware that like Iggy Pop even existed,

1:18:49

you know what I mean? Like,

1:18:52

and just be like, I'm just gonna like, hurl

1:18:54

myself into the crowd and like, we're gonna

1:18:56

flop around, like the mic's gonna come unplugged.

1:18:59

This is just like what we're gonna do, because it's

1:19:01

like, exciting and it shakes

1:19:03

things up. Like it was just like, a

1:19:06

lot of my history is like,

1:19:08

innocently having no clue about like,

1:19:10

what came before, you know? Like,

1:19:14

but yeah, no, we were super into that and just, there

1:19:17

was a lot of room for ad living too. So.

1:19:20

And also, you guys are super

1:19:22

early into the wrestling punk. Yeah,

1:19:26

that felt completely novel to me at the

1:19:28

time, you know? I don't know. And

1:19:31

again, I think it just speaks to

1:19:33

like, our extremely limited

1:19:35

worldview of like, we live

1:19:37

in a small town. I

1:19:39

don't know what else is out there, but in this small

1:19:41

town, there's like my three friends, let me

1:19:43

write about them. There's pro wrestling

1:19:46

on TV, let me write about that, you

1:19:48

know? Like, it was just such a tiny

1:19:50

worldview that was like, coloring what I wanted

1:19:52

to like, make music

1:19:54

about, I guess, you know? Or like,

1:19:56

oh, here's a really annoying letter that

1:19:59

someone wrote. in like dog

1:20:01

print fanzine. So let's write a

1:20:03

song about that, you know, like

1:20:05

microscopic, like I never had an interest

1:20:07

in grand

1:20:09

ideas or like share, you know, I

1:20:11

never wanted to be like the preacher

1:20:14

or the like person who

1:20:16

understands the world. I wanted to tell you

1:20:18

about like the specific

1:20:20

parking spot I parked in while going.

1:20:22

You know what I mean? I don't

1:20:24

know. I just find like the smallest

1:20:26

details were what like I always thought

1:20:28

I should share. Like writing about your

1:20:30

friends looking like you. Yeah, exactly. Just

1:20:32

like the most microscopic

1:20:35

details. That's what's like, all right, let's

1:20:37

make this our thing. And

1:20:39

yeah, it was just like wrestling. We

1:20:41

love this. We're truly passionate

1:20:43

about it. It's uncool and

1:20:46

let's just make it, let's just try to act like

1:20:49

it's cool. You know, there

1:20:51

was no cultural capital in

1:20:53

being a wrestling fan. No,

1:20:55

no, it was it's weird

1:20:58

now that there that are kind of is

1:21:00

in some ways. But yeah, no, it

1:21:02

was just like, let's do this. And then like, it

1:21:04

kind of aesthetically, we're all set. You

1:21:07

know, there's that we have all these like

1:21:09

old pro wrestling illustrators we can cut up

1:21:11

if we need to, you know, like wrestling

1:21:14

at the time was like very

1:21:16

exciting to us. Like what was

1:21:18

happening with like WWF and WCW

1:21:20

and like ECW and Brad was

1:21:22

getting tapes from Japan of like

1:21:25

deathmatch stuff. So it was all

1:21:27

like, yeah, this is like

1:21:29

this is a culture we like, you know, I think

1:21:31

also in retrospect, looking

1:21:34

at wrestling like music, you guys were kind of

1:21:36

in Seattle

1:21:38

1990 or New

1:21:41

York 75 for pro

1:21:43

wrestling then. I mean,

1:21:46

I still like, I'm

1:21:49

just I can't believe anyone would think it's like

1:21:51

cool, you know, like, I

1:21:53

don't know. It's just such like

1:21:56

a deep little part of me, you know,

1:21:58

like that I would never. think

1:22:01

is impressive, you know, because

1:22:03

it's just like, it's just like silly fun,

1:22:05

you know, it's like, I

1:22:07

don't know. I, I,

1:22:09

I obviously will waste

1:22:12

your time and punish you about this shit forever.

1:22:14

So I will spare you that right now. But

1:22:17

I do feel like it is even

1:22:21

more than being in the lead singer in

1:22:23

a hardcore band. It's like a Faustian deal

1:22:25

where every time you perform the

1:22:27

art, it, it

1:22:30

costs you. Yeah. Yeah.

1:22:33

And I love that period

1:22:35

of it too, because much like we're talking about

1:22:37

punk, there was, I'm sure

1:22:40

some people that you broke in with and, and, and

1:22:43

wrestle with early on had

1:22:45

aspirations for where they've now achieved and

1:22:47

what they've been able to achieve. But

1:22:50

it felt like looking in from the outside, like they're

1:22:53

like the distance between WWF E

1:22:59

and, and some of the

1:23:01

stuff that was happening on the Indies, when

1:23:03

the indie explosion really starts bubbling up type

1:23:05

thing was as big as

1:23:07

the Gulf between like the Eagles and

1:23:10

black flag. Like, yeah, for sure. Completely

1:23:12

different. And I mean,

1:23:14

the Indies like kinda like

1:23:17

when, when we were teenagers, the Indies were

1:23:19

like local yokel,

1:23:21

like nothing remotely cool or punk about

1:23:23

it. You know, it was like a

1:23:25

guy that it's like clearly trying

1:23:27

to dress like a mix of the ultimate

1:23:30

warrior and sting. And he's called like, you

1:23:32

know, the night train. And

1:23:34

like, it was like fun, but like, also

1:23:36

like, I feel like there was a level

1:23:38

of like irony for our friends to go

1:23:40

and like watch this stuff, you know, like

1:23:42

George the animal steals, they're wrestling, you

1:23:45

know, chef, we, we I'm fat

1:23:47

or, you know, like really terrible,

1:23:49

like just no creativity, like

1:23:53

kind of depressing wrestling.

1:23:55

And then Chikara

1:23:57

came about, which like

1:24:01

four of my good friends, maybe more,

1:24:03

maybe five, so like four or five

1:24:05

all went and got trained there. We're

1:24:07

like the first class of Chikara, which

1:24:10

suddenly like showed a new path

1:24:12

for what like indie wrestling could

1:24:14

be in America, where it's like

1:24:17

humorous and like kind of letting you

1:24:20

in on the joke and a little

1:24:22

bit meta, you know, like, because this

1:24:24

was still... You didn't talk about

1:24:26

wrestling if you were involved, you know, like there was... You

1:24:29

didn't have like a reality show.

1:24:31

It was a secret, you know, it was

1:24:33

a true... Omerta,

1:24:35

you know, kayfabe, sort of like,

1:24:38

this is not for sharing. And

1:24:40

then when Chikara showed up with like my

1:24:43

friends randomly just taking

1:24:45

part, that was such a

1:24:48

revelation that like wrestling could be

1:24:52

silly in a way that's novel

1:24:54

and like smart, you know? Yeah,

1:24:58

it felt like that moment

1:25:00

post ECW, like ECW

1:25:02

being the Stooges and the Velvet

1:25:05

Underground and all the proto punk,

1:25:07

that the stuff that happens

1:25:10

afterwards with Chikara and you

1:25:12

probably, you know the timeline better than I do, but

1:25:14

then Ring of Honor and CCW and... Yeah,

1:25:17

CCW was like beforehand, but like,

1:25:20

it was like right after ECW, but

1:25:22

it was also like, let's

1:25:25

take the garbage aspect of ECW

1:25:27

and like amplify that. So

1:25:30

that was like thrilling to witness in

1:25:32

person, but kind of a dead

1:25:34

end. You know, you need something else. You

1:25:36

can't just have like, this

1:25:38

is Guy in Black Athletic Shorts A

1:25:41

versus Guy in Black Athletic Shorts B,

1:25:44

and they're just gonna like grate each other's

1:25:46

skin, you know? Like, it's

1:25:48

exciting, but that novelty wears off, I

1:25:50

feel like. And I'm sure they've like

1:25:53

found ways to evolve through the years, but

1:25:55

like, Chikara felt like a brand new language

1:25:58

all of a sudden, you know? me

1:26:00

as a spectator. I wasn't a

1:26:02

wrestler, I was like peripheral,

1:26:04

like manager, you

1:26:06

know, referee, fan,

1:26:08

whatever. But

1:26:12

yeah, that was, and then like, I feel

1:26:14

like so many big names have come through

1:26:16

that like, if not Chikara directly,

1:26:18

but like people who went

1:26:20

to Chikara, like, you know,

1:26:22

I don't know, like Orange Cassidy or like

1:26:24

Claudia Castagnoli, you know, like

1:26:27

there's just some really

1:26:29

fantastic Eddie Kingston, you

1:26:31

know, like fantastic

1:26:33

wrestlers who are all like so

1:26:36

unique, who came from

1:26:38

that school. So it's like, and like,

1:26:40

and it's a great thing. I feel like that's why people

1:26:43

who might be more punk like it now, because

1:26:45

you can see it's not just like, stereotypes

1:26:48

bashing each other, you know, for

1:26:50

like, the amusement of the lowest

1:26:53

common denominator. Yeah,

1:26:55

it feels like post the

1:26:57

big reveal of wrestling where

1:27:02

wrestling admitted it was an

1:27:04

art form unto itself and that it wasn't necessarily

1:27:08

that shoot fight that you're watching. Right. That's

1:27:11

when I think it transforms into this sort of like

1:27:14

art form type thing. And

1:27:16

like you're saying, Chikara is the purest

1:27:20

like expression of this art where it's completely,

1:27:22

it's found ways to evolve through

1:27:24

the years. But like, Chikara felt like a

1:27:26

brand new language all of a sudden, you

1:27:29

know, for me as a spectator, I was,

1:27:31

I wasn't a wrestler, I was like, peripheral,

1:27:34

like manager, you

1:27:36

know, referee, fan, whatever.

1:27:41

But yeah, that was, and then like, I

1:27:43

feel like so many big names have come

1:27:45

through that, like, if not Chikara

1:27:47

directly, but like people who went

1:27:50

to Chikara, like, you know,

1:27:52

I don't know, like Orange Cassidy or like

1:27:54

Claudia Castagnoli, you know, like

1:27:56

there's just some Really

1:27:59

fantastic. Eddie Kingston.

1:28:01

You know, like. Fantastic.

1:28:03

Wrestlers who were all like so

1:28:05

unique. Who. Came from that

1:28:08

school. So. It's a and

1:28:10

like and it's a great thing. I feel that's why people. Who.

1:28:12

Might be more punk like it now because you

1:28:14

can see the it's It's not just like. Stereotypes.

1:28:18

Bashing each other you know, for

1:28:20

like the amusement of the lowest

1:28:22

common denominator, Yet

1:28:25

feels like. Posts. Of

1:28:27

the big reveal a wrestling were.

1:28:31

Wrestling. He. It. Was

1:28:33

an art form unto itself. And then it

1:28:36

wasn't Necessarily. Us. You'd

1:28:38

fight that you're watching gray raining there,

1:28:40

and that's when I think it transforms

1:28:42

into sort of like art form. Taipei

1:28:45

and like a saint to car is

1:28:47

the. The

1:28:49

purest like expression of this artwork completely

1:28:51

seems like as a fan watching in

1:28:53

like you're you're there are eight Obviously

1:28:55

it's of has he says a scene

1:28:57

unfold for sand but it does feel

1:28:59

like this is likes of this blossoming

1:29:01

of the thing is an art form

1:29:03

in the same with a Ccw. I.

1:29:06

Do feel and here we are. We live in

1:29:08

a world where you would have thought back then

1:29:10

that Nikkei to be fighting the guy from scream.

1:29:13

At One Las Vegas your web

1:29:15

apps I do it. Yeah

1:29:18

I feel like also see car and that school

1:29:20

kind of. Coming. To it

1:29:22

with a family friendly aspect was

1:29:24

interesting cause that's like. An

1:29:26

interesting limitation to put on is

1:29:28

because you have to be entertaining

1:29:31

without being shocking, you know? So

1:29:33

I kind of forces you to

1:29:35

come up with new ideas. Like

1:29:38

I'll I love like you know? limitations?

1:29:41

As like a wave of things

1:29:43

you're working around to create. Your.

1:29:45

Are. You know, because it can

1:29:47

lead you to new places Rather than

1:29:50

like there's no limitation, you might take

1:29:52

the easiest path you know why. And

1:29:54

that's what I love wrestling when it

1:29:56

is. about this limitless

1:29:58

art form where you can

1:30:01

get people to cry watching it, get people to

1:30:04

laugh watching it, get people to like riot. Grow

1:30:07

up. Yeah, yeah. There's like

1:30:09

a real, and that's

1:30:12

never going to be necessarily the same

1:30:15

with, I guess it is the same with

1:30:17

punk, but it just feels like you

1:30:19

have to do something like

1:30:22

One Life Crew to get people to ride and

1:30:24

you really don't want to One Life Crew it. Yeah,

1:30:27

I mean, yeah, I

1:30:30

don't know. I feel like maybe like punk, I

1:30:33

don't want to like generalize too much,

1:30:35

but punk has like a smarter audience,

1:30:37

let's say, he was like more finely

1:30:39

attuned to bullshit. So to

1:30:41

really shock a punk

1:30:43

audience in any way that's like

1:30:45

positive, that's a tough thing

1:30:47

to pull off. Whereas in wrestling, maybe it's a

1:30:50

little bit easier, you know? I

1:30:52

think it's an audience that is more

1:30:54

willing to want to believe. Punk

1:30:57

is always trying to see through it. Like,

1:31:00

oh, fuck that guy, he's like fake or

1:31:03

that band's not this and that's not

1:31:05

bad or this person's like this. Whereas

1:31:08

in wrestling, there's a

1:31:11

real hero worship for the people in the

1:31:14

ring for, and once again, not to generalize

1:31:16

because some people are complete assholes at these wrestling games.

1:31:18

Yeah, yeah. And they can shift to where

1:31:20

you can be like, I really

1:31:22

hate this wrestler. But no, like

1:31:24

I really hate them. Like I don't want to

1:31:27

see them on TV ever. Like it's not like

1:31:29

fun hate, but then like, whoa, now it turned

1:31:31

into fun hate. And now it turned into actual

1:31:33

love, you know, like, I appreciate

1:31:35

the way your perspective can shift on

1:31:37

people, depending on what they're doing,

1:31:40

you know, where the angles are headed. And

1:31:42

yeah, so there is more leeway for like

1:31:46

opinions to change of people maybe,

1:31:48

because you are you're looking to

1:31:50

be entertained more than you're looking

1:31:52

to like, see why the other

1:31:54

thing is imperfect, you know,

1:31:56

like the wooden punk like, no, no,

1:31:58

no, this band's fake, you know,

1:32:00

like you're saying, you know, for whatever reason.

1:32:04

Yeah. And I think there's a willingness to grow

1:32:06

with someone you like in wrestling. Maybe

1:32:09

this is what you're kind of aware.

1:32:11

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Whereas like

1:32:14

in punk, it was like, oh, they were better

1:32:16

when. And in wrestling,

1:32:18

there's, in

1:32:20

punk, you hate the fact that the

1:32:23

hardcore band was playing Wembley Stadium,

1:32:26

but with Orange Cassidy, it's amazing to

1:32:28

see Orange Cassidy. Right. Right. Do that

1:32:30

in Wembley Stadium. That's

1:32:33

a good point. Yeah. It's, yeah, the

1:32:35

slight differences between the two worlds, but

1:32:38

it was it. Did you guys have

1:32:40

interactions? Like were there interactions with wrestlers that

1:32:42

didn't like it? And like there were people

1:32:44

that when you, would

1:32:46

you ever see that backstage? Like people are just like, I

1:32:49

don't get this side of things.

1:32:51

Cause it's unique. Well, I mean, we played

1:32:53

with a lot of like screamo bands too.

1:32:56

Yeah. I personally like loved like Orchid.

1:32:58

You know, I love that first album

1:33:00

so much and was thrilled that like

1:33:02

we're playing shows with them, you know,

1:33:04

and like Jerome's dream and

1:33:07

like all that sort of scene.

1:33:10

And they were definitely not funny band. You

1:33:12

know, the people in the bands might've been

1:33:14

hilarious, but I feel like also

1:33:16

we were younger and like, you know,

1:33:18

if you're trying to be cool and you've got

1:33:20

like that black, like locust haircut and like you've

1:33:23

got the look down and then we show up

1:33:25

just like being stupid goofballs. Like

1:33:27

we probably killed the mood a bit. You

1:33:29

know what I mean? Like, I don't

1:33:32

know. I feel like that's just who

1:33:34

we are naturally. Like we just, we didn't, we,

1:33:36

we couldn't even pretend to be cool. You know

1:33:39

what I mean? Like, but

1:33:41

we could pretend to be wrestlers. So we would

1:33:43

like play these shows and we

1:33:47

had like a crew, an entourage that would like,

1:33:49

you know, do bulbs and stuff or like barbed

1:33:52

wire while we're playing. Like we did that at

1:33:54

one Wilkes-Barre fest where we all

1:33:56

showed up. We were so psyched. I don't

1:33:59

even remember any. anything about the music, but we

1:34:01

did have like two barbed wire walls kind

1:34:03

of set up. And our

1:34:06

friend, like a ladder, people are getting like, you know, jumping

1:34:09

around, it's a real spectacle. And

1:34:11

then the band that

1:34:13

played after us was like a

1:34:15

very kind of like karate

1:34:17

influenced like braid style, like

1:34:20

emo math rock bands. We

1:34:22

were sweeping for most of their set. And

1:34:25

you know, so like, no

1:34:27

one was even close to them. And I was like, I'm

1:34:29

amused by this. But I also feel like

1:34:31

if you told me I was a dick

1:34:34

for this, I couldn't argue, you know, we

1:34:36

tried to bring that, you know, like that

1:34:38

we're silly, like we're goose, like, okay,

1:34:41

pig destroyers up next and they're dead

1:34:44

serious. But I'm gonna wear

1:34:46

like a stone cold Halloween mask right

1:34:48

now because like, we love stone cold

1:34:50

and being goofy, you know. There

1:34:53

was this sort of cool

1:34:56

sophistication. It's funny because Jason

1:34:58

from Orchid was just over today.

1:35:00

Oh, cool. He moved to Toronto. And

1:35:04

I still feel so much

1:35:06

less cool than he is and so much

1:35:08

less put together than he is. He just

1:35:10

moved to Toronto. He's already got like a

1:35:12

bar here, like some new music

1:35:14

projects. He's like so much further ahead than me.

1:35:17

And I've lived here my whole fucking life. Yeah.

1:35:19

I never like taught, we play shows with

1:35:21

them, but we would just be like intimidated

1:35:23

and also be like big fans of these

1:35:25

guys, you know. And also

1:35:28

found, we're like, you're gonna all

1:35:31

regret your locust haircut someday.

1:35:33

But you do look cool now. But we also

1:35:36

know, you know what I mean? Like, we

1:35:38

could kind of tell this was just

1:35:40

a trendy thing that we weren't like

1:35:43

fully partaking in. We kind of dabble in

1:35:45

everything. You know, it's like, all

1:35:48

right, we'll, we'll dread. We'll wear like

1:35:50

Youngblood Records gear and like

1:35:52

Teamwork Records t-shirts, but also love

1:35:56

the locust. And you know,

1:35:58

so it was like. We

1:36:00

never fully committed to one of the like

1:36:02

tropes that existed back then which also meant

1:36:04

we were never like the greatest at any

1:36:06

of the of the tropes, you know and

1:36:10

and it was like a commitment to be All

1:36:13

these things also cost a lot of money. And so it

1:36:15

was always like what I prefer to buy records or would

1:36:17

I prefer to dress? Yeah, or

1:36:19

like the scene. I want to I'm supposed to be in

1:36:21

and Yeah,

1:36:24

that was that was I mean, I

1:36:26

when the locusts came through on that

1:36:29

torment everyone looks And wardrobes changed here

1:36:31

on the East Coast like overnight T-shirts

1:36:34

went from like double XL to

1:36:37

youth large, you know It

1:36:39

was the locusts are one of those bands

1:36:43

And I guess the refused would kind of

1:36:45

refuse would kind of take that sort

1:36:47

of aesthetic and even blow it

1:36:50

up bigger but The impact

1:36:52

they had on hardcore Some of

1:36:54

the fashion and also musically ever like so many

1:36:56

bands tried to sell to look just afterwards and

1:36:59

it was a It

1:37:01

was amazing how big these ripple effects would be in

1:37:04

a hard core from these bands because

1:37:06

it was such a small scene Yeah,

1:37:08

and again like And

1:37:11

locusts probably made zero money You know what

1:37:13

I mean? Like even though

1:37:15

they they completely changed it like

1:37:17

what everyone was doing how everyone was looking Just

1:37:20

interesting to think about that, you know Like

1:37:22

they were able to put out records and

1:37:24

like maybe do a little tour but like

1:37:27

in a terrible van, you know Yeah, no,

1:37:29

I admired that like even if they're like

1:37:31

they look they looked crazy. I thought

1:37:33

they looked so cool it was just like the people that

1:37:35

copied them that I would be like I Can

1:37:38

kind of tell where you got this look from, you know,

1:37:40

like It was also

1:37:43

the proto hipster thing like that would become the hipster

1:37:45

thing. I think a few years later Yeah,

1:37:47

like make out club arriving like in that

1:37:50

way for sure. Yeah, make

1:37:52

a club and and Well,

1:37:54

Jason even talks about because he moves to New York and

1:37:56

winds up DJing and all that sort of early meet me

1:37:58

in the bathroom Kind of stuff and a

1:38:00

lot of those people have

1:38:03

connections or a few of those people certainly

1:38:05

have connections to hardcore

1:38:07

stuff and this was sort of I guess

1:38:10

the post hardcore graduation place to go.

1:38:13

Right, right, yeah. It

1:38:15

was also the rise of drugs coming back into

1:38:17

hardcore. It felt like hardcore was just so desexualized,

1:38:23

de-drugged, like I'm talking about specifically the sort

1:38:25

of like DIY scene. Oh for sure, yeah,

1:38:27

yeah. And then it just,

1:38:30

it's not that way. And yeah,

1:38:32

really my experience in the suburbs was

1:38:34

just like a very

1:38:37

light ripple of that. You know at that

1:38:39

time it was like okay, a locust

1:38:42

coke mirror? All

1:38:44

right, I guess. I don't know what this is.

1:38:46

You know like sounds cool,

1:38:48

who cares? You know like. Remember

1:38:52

when Doss Oath came out and it was like

1:38:54

super sexual? Yeah, that

1:38:56

was a little weird. It

1:38:58

was and it was especially

1:39:00

because it was so removed

1:39:02

from that, prior

1:39:05

to that. Like that it was even more shocking.

1:39:07

Like it was, it was

1:39:09

just what? They make it, they have a dildo?

1:39:11

They're making what? And

1:39:15

I could tell like I'm like I get

1:39:17

that this is commentary on something but no

1:39:20

clue what that something is, you know? Yeah.

1:39:24

It felt like this all, and

1:39:27

it's amazing if you think about a lot of these kids that

1:39:29

would wind up being the early,

1:39:32

for lack of better term, hipsters or like the people that

1:39:34

would be the tastemakers of this sort of vice,

1:39:38

post meet me in the bathroom moment

1:39:40

that New York was kind of having, coming out

1:39:42

of hardcore, coming out of these really sort of

1:39:46

puritanical, restrictive

1:39:50

Oh yeah. Where you

1:39:52

get like this freedom again. Yeah,

1:39:55

interesting to see that because I

1:39:57

felt like I was still so sheltered like my scene.

1:40:00

You know, like we were music first,

1:40:02

like it was never about like having

1:40:06

sex. I can attest to that personally.

1:40:09

It was never, that was not having

1:40:11

sex. It was not even on the

1:40:13

table or even missed or

1:40:16

cared about. It was like, no,

1:40:18

let's do bands. You know, just innocent,

1:40:20

just very innocent where I

1:40:22

was living in a nice way. You

1:40:24

know, I look back, there weren't any like

1:40:27

crazy, terrible things

1:40:29

that happened. So I feel lucky for

1:40:31

that, you know. But

1:40:33

then Pissed Cheese was kind of thrust into

1:40:36

the post,

1:40:38

whatever this world was, the Vice

1:40:41

kind of pitchfork.

1:40:44

Yeah, yeah. New

1:40:46

York moment that this kind of music

1:40:48

had, I feel like, like

1:40:50

maybe I'm just putting that on you guys.

1:40:52

But I feel like that

1:40:55

can be attributed almost like 99% to

1:40:57

being on Subhop. You

1:41:00

know what I mean? Like suddenly

1:41:02

having like a known label co-sign

1:41:05

us made all

1:41:07

these places have to acknowledge, you

1:41:09

know, because I feel like

1:41:12

we were still very much punk and like

1:41:15

we would hope that, you know, Tony

1:41:18

Urba or like Felix Havoc would know

1:41:21

who we were. But you know, like

1:41:23

it wasn't about like pitchfork. What were

1:41:25

they right about? Modest Mouse? Like

1:41:27

what does that have to do with anything? You know, like

1:41:29

who cares? Like it just

1:41:31

felt so, but then being on Subhop, they

1:41:33

had to like acknowledge our existence, I think.

1:41:36

I fear for fear of being like left out in

1:41:38

the dark, you know, they didn't acknowledge

1:41:40