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emmadhesi.com/30 Top Tips. Okay,

1:46

let's dive in to today's

1:46

episode, and author, attorney

1:50

and adjunct professor of law, L

1:50

M. Lilly founded writing as a

1:54

second career to share her

1:54

information with people juggling

1:58

writing novels with working at

1:58

other jobs or careers. She has

2:02

written and published multiple

2:02

books on writing craft,

2:06

including super simple story

2:06

structure, a quick guide to

2:09

plotting and writing your novel

2:09

and creating compelling

2:12

characters from the inside out.

2:12

Writing as Lisa M Lilly She is

2:18

the author of the QC Davis

2:18

mysteries, and the best selling

2:22

for book awakening supernatural

2:22

thriller series. She also hosts

2:27

the podcast, Buffy and the Art

2:27

of Story. So let's delve into

2:31

finding out more about the two

2:31

series and Buffy and the art of

2:36

story. Well, welcome, Lisa, I am

2:36

so thrilled to have you on the

2:40

show. Thank you very, very much

2:40

for being here.

2:43

Oh, I'm so excited

2:43

to be here.

2:46

Now, one of the

2:46

things I often ask my guests is,

2:49

you know, what was your journey

2:49

to fiction? So I'm, I'm curious

2:52

how you made? You know, because

2:52

often for us, it's a bit of a

2:56

meandering route. And so I'm

2:56

wondering what brought you to

2:58

the world of fiction?

3:00

Yeah, there was

3:00

definitely some zigzagging, I

3:04

started writing when I was very

3:04

little, just because I love to

3:07

read. So I started writing

3:07

stories. And I scribbled out

3:11

novels. When I was in sixth

3:11

grade, I had a friend, we would

3:14

trade our novel chapters, but I

3:14

didn't finish anything. And then

3:19

in college is really when I

3:19

focused on it more, I was

3:24

struggling for major took a

3:24

bunch of accounting classes,

3:27

which have come in handy later.

3:27

But when I looked at a major, I

3:32

found this school that had a

3:32

writing program. And at the

3:36

time, I wasn't thinking career

3:36

so much as Oh, they'll give me a

3:39

degree for writing awesome. So I

3:39

did that. And I wrote finished

3:44

my first novel a year after I

3:44

got out of college, I wrote a

3:48

number of them and this was back

3:48

when your options, there really

3:51

were no options to put your work

3:51

out there directly. So I kept

3:56

trying to get agents and get

3:56

publishers and I was making

4:00

progress in terms of getting

4:00

more personal letters, getting

4:04

letters saying, Oh, this is so

4:04

close, send me your next novel.

4:07

And at some point, I decided to

4:07

go to law school. I had been

4:11

working as a paralegal and I

4:11

really liked it. I liked what

4:15

the attorneys seem to be doing

4:15

even better. And so I went to

4:19

law school, I went at night, so

4:19

I was pretty much working or in

4:22

school or studying all the time.

4:22

So I did not write fiction. Then

4:25

I wrote some poems, I wrote a

4:25

bunch of poems. And then after

4:29

that, I was always writing on

4:29

the side. So I continued, I was

4:32

never I almost see it as a I

4:32

couldn't like I tried to stop.

4:37

My first year as a lawyer. I

4:37

thought it's enough. Just Just

4:41

don't, you know, don't try to

4:41

write a novel just too It's too

4:45

much and I really missed it. And

4:45

I discovered I had actually

4:48

written about 90 pages during

4:48

that year Just here and there.

4:52

So that's when I started

4:52

deliberately making specific

4:56

time to write despite that, I

4:56

worked a lot of hours. And it

5:00

took quite some time, but about

5:00

I had been practicing about

5:05

eight or nine years when I self

5:05

published my first book, and

5:08

then I have been writing and

5:08

publishing novels ever since.

5:13

It's interesting,

5:13

isn't it? It's, I think, for

5:15

many creative people, even if, I

5:15

mean, I've never worked in the

5:19

law, but I imagine it's, it's

5:19

very much based. In fact, it's

5:23

got to be very precise. There is

5:23

rules to all you know, and then

5:28

having that option, even if it's

5:28

just every now and again, to

5:31

kind of break free from that and

5:31

be creative and spill things

5:35

down on the page or, or paint,

5:35

you know, paint if you're an

5:38

artist. But there is something

5:38

about being creative and using

5:42

that part of the brain that

5:42

drives us. And as you say, we

5:44

don't necessarily know why.

5:47

Yeah, I had people

5:47

ask me because my law practice

5:51

involves a lot of writing. It's

5:51

it's a kind of practice where a

5:55

lot of things are decided on

5:55

what we write and submit to the

5:58

court. And people would ask me,

5:58

well, how can you sit down then

6:02

go home, you work in 11 hour day

6:02

and six days a week, go home and

6:06

write. But it's it is it's the

6:06

skills crossover a little but

6:11

it's a different kind of

6:11

frightening and it felt very,

6:14

almost restoring and, and

6:14

freeing to me that I used to

6:19

take what I called writing

6:19

vacations, where I'd take a week

6:23

off, I wouldn't go anywhere, and

6:23

I would just write my novel and

6:27

it did not feel like work. It

6:27

felt fun and creative in a

6:32

different way. And you bright

6:32

part of it is I do like to

6:37

structure my stories, I think a

6:37

lot about plot, but it is such a

6:40

more free form creative area

6:40

than in a different way and more

6:46

relaxed to me kind of creativity

6:46

than all the very specific rules

6:51

and deadlines you have to follow in law.

6:53

I can imagine it's a

6:53

bit of a palate cleanser for

6:55

your....

6:56

Yes. Yeah, very

6:56

much. So yeah.

6:59

you mentioned

6:59

overlap there. And indeed, with

7:01

your QC Davis mysteries, I think

7:01

there is a bit of an overlap

7:05

between the fiction and the

7:05

legal world. I wonder if you

7:08

tell us about that series, and

7:08

where you got the idea from?

7:12

That series. So

7:12

you're right, the main

7:14

character, although she is kind

7:14

of an amateur sleuth, she solves

7:20

crimes, but she also is a

7:20

lawyer. She's a lawyer who used

7:23

to be a child stage actress. So

7:23

I drew a little from my life, I

7:28

was never a child stage actress,

7:28

I did a little bit of community

7:31

theater, but that idea of

7:31

balancing your work and having

7:36

this creative side of you, and

7:36

then for her now it's fitting in

7:40

her law practice and then

7:40

investigating these crimes and

7:43

how you juggle that there isn't

7:43

a ton about that. But there's a

7:47

little and I'm sure that I

7:47

didn't think about it that way.

7:51

But the more I write them, the

7:51

more I realized that is part I

7:54

do draw for my life for that. I

7:54

did not I started that series in

7:59

2018. And that was at a point

7:59

where I had really scaled back

8:05

my law practice, it was very,

8:05

very part time. Now I don't run

8:08

my own firm anymore. I work with

8:08

someone else. And I feel like

8:12

that opened up space for me to

8:12

have a character who was a

8:15

lawyer. Before that people would

8:15

say to me, why don't you write

8:19

legal thrillers or why don't you

8:19

use your law practice. And my

8:22

thought was, I'm spending 60

8:22

hours a week on this already, I

8:26

don't want to sit down and write

8:26

about a fictional lawyer. But

8:30

once I was not as immersed I now

8:30

I enjoy drawing on that

8:36

background. And it gives me a

8:36

chance it's a first person. So

8:40

here and there. I do admit that

8:40

my character quills commentary

8:44

may resemble some of my thoughts

8:44

about the profession, mostly

8:50

positive, but it's kind of fun

8:50

to be able to play with that a

8:54

little bit.

8:54

And so the mysteries

8:54

that she solves, are they also

8:58

based on kind of real life

8:58

experience and things that you

9:00

might have worked on as well?

9:04

They come some of

9:04

the ideas are sparked by that

9:08

none of them are directly from

9:08

an experience I had. But for

9:12

example, in the first book, the

9:12

question is quill begins

9:18

investigating because and this

9:18

happens in the first chapter, so

9:21

no spoilers. This man she's been

9:21

seeing. She's very close with

9:25

him. It's been a very fast

9:25

romance, and she finds him dead

9:29

in the apartment they were going

9:29

to move into and the question is

9:34

the police think it's suicide.

9:34

And she is not convinced partly

9:38

because she knew him and his son

9:38

doesn't believe that his father

9:43

would ever do that. But also as

9:43

a side issue, he has this life

9:47

insurance policy and and I

9:47

happen to know from my practice,

9:51

they don't pay out. Most of them

9:51

have what's called a suicide

9:55

clause and they won't pay out if

9:55

you commit suicide within X

9:59

amount of years. Her boyfriend

9:59

is someone who is former doctor

10:04

working in the insurance

10:04

industry. So she knows he knows

10:06

that and she knows he wouldn't

10:06

have left his son, basically, he

10:10

would not have left his son with

10:10

nothing. So it isn't a huge part

10:14

of the story because no one

10:14

wants to read about insurance.

10:18

But it's it's a small factor in

10:18

why she is so convinced that in

10:25

addition to the personal aspect,

10:25

and it's one of the things she

10:28

uses to tell other people

10:28

because they're like, well, you

10:31

haven't known him that long. And

10:31

of course, his son doesn't think

10:33

he would do this. So it's it's

10:33

partly her wedge to say no, but

10:37

look at this issue. Like he is

10:37

not someone who would leave his

10:40

son without any means to support

10:40

himself.

10:45

So yes, you're able

10:45

to use your existing knowledge

10:47

and kind of throw it into the

10:47

background of a story and help

10:50

it move along nicely.

10:52

Yeah, and I do I try

10:52

to keep it very background. But

10:56

yeah, it sparks the idea. And

10:56

then it went all kinds of other

10:59

directions. But it was this

10:59

little grain that caught me

11:03

thinking about Oh, wait, what if

11:03

somebody died? And there was

11:06

this this issue? Which is it

11:06

murder suicide? And and how do

11:12

you convince people?

11:14

Now, I think there's three in the series. Is that right?

11:17

I just released the

11:17

fourth in December. So and

11:21

they're all it's the worried

11:21

man, the charming man, the

11:25

fractured man and the troubled

11:25

man. So that's the branding and

11:29

part of my idea for it. I love

11:29

to read thrillers and mysteries,

11:35

but I got tired of women are

11:35

always the victims, not always.

11:40

But there are so many that focus

11:40

on women as victims and many of

11:44

the thrillers, because you are

11:44

seeing through the antagonists

11:48

point of view, you're seeing

11:48

women being terrorized. And I

11:54

just I got tired of that. And so

11:54

I wanted to flip it. And my

12:00

character my main character,

12:00

obviously she's a woman, it's

12:03

first person so we're not seeing

12:03

from the villains point of view,

12:06

but also not always, but in my

12:06

books, it is more often men and

12:11

women who are the victims and I

12:11

try to make it more most this I

12:18

did learn from my law practice

12:18

most victims of murder. If it is

12:24

someone they know and it is if

12:24

it's a man killer, it's an A

12:27

stranger violence. It's usually

12:27

men against men. It's not it's

12:31

very over represented in the

12:31

thriller. genre. The how often

12:36

women get killed by strangers,

12:36

like usually it's someone

12:40

personal. So most of my all of

12:40

my mysteries pretty much center

12:44

on personal stories personal

12:44

it's somebody they knew.

12:50

Okay. That's

12:50

interesting. I didn't know I

12:52

didn't know that about the being

12:52

killed by a stranger that is

12:55

usually male to male. Oh, that's

12:55

interesting.

12:58

Yeah, the vast, I

12:58

mean, it's sad. But the biggest

13:00

danger to women, statistically,

13:00

is the men they live with and or

13:04

fall, you know, or are close to

13:04

our close family with or are

13:08

involved with. And it Yeah, and

13:08

I feel like it's the as much as

13:13

I love thrillers, it started to

13:13

bother me that this message was,

13:18

Oh, you've got to be so careful

13:18

what you do and where you go,

13:21

which of course we all are. But

13:21

it just seems so outsized, and I

13:25

got tired of reading it. So I

13:25

thought, I'm gonna write what I

13:28

want to write. What I want to

13:28

read

13:30

Its great that you redressing the balance there, because I think I've heard that

13:32

sort of commentary from a number

13:35

of particularly women, Thriller

13:35

writers, crime writers who Yeah,

13:40

as you say, kind of fed up

13:40

seeing as always women who are

13:43

the victim of some horrible

13:43

crime. So it's nice to see the

13:45

violence being redressed a bit

13:45

and that it happens worldwide to

13:48

everybody.

13:49

Yeah, yeah.

13:51

Well, that's a good thing. But you know what I mean?

13:53

Right, right. Not

13:53

that we want more men to be to

13:56

be victims.

13:58

So we were talking

13:58

before we started recording, we

14:01

were still talking a little bit

14:01

about the marketing of books,

14:03

because we'll come on in a

14:03

second to talk about your other

14:05

series, which is fits firmly

14:05

within the thriller genre. But

14:10

we were talking about your QC

14:10

Davis mysteries and where they

14:14

fit because this is something

14:14

that is affects all of us

14:18

writers, whether we're published

14:18

yet or to be published, we need

14:22

to figure out where we fit. And

14:22

so I was asking you about your

14:26

the series, is it a Cozy

14:26

Mystery, but you were explaining

14:29

to me the nuances between cozy

14:29

and where, where the deepest

14:33

mysteries fit. I wonder if you

14:33

could kind of share that with

14:35

our listeners.

14:37

Yes, it when I

14:37

started marketing them. I really

14:41

went too broad because and I

14:41

think we're all as authors, we

14:45

want to say, oh, everyone will

14:45

love my book. And I was that

14:51

broad, but I have mysteries and

14:51

thrillers. So I just want to

14:54

draw on mystery and thriller

14:54

writers and gradually through

14:57

reviews, I discovered a lot of

14:57

people who like cozy mysteries?

15:01

I really like this series. I had

15:01

someone on Twitter tweet me and

15:05

say, Oh, my mom loved your QC

15:05

Davis mysteries. They're a

15:10

little darker than the cozy she

15:10

usually reads but she's so happy

15:13

that there's no graphic sex and

15:13

little swearing and no on screen

15:19

violence violins and those are

15:19

the things that make something a

15:23

cozy but as I was telling you

15:23

usually in cozy people are also

15:28

looking for something a little

15:28

more kind of cute and

15:31

lighthearted. There's a cat

15:31

solving the mystery or it's a

15:35

knitting circle or something

15:35

like that, and the books don't

15:38

have that. So it took me about

15:38

three books before I honed in on

15:45

the categories, particularly on

15:45

Amazon, but also I want to say

15:49

Kobo as well. They have amateur

15:49

sleuth categories. In fact, a

15:53

reader suggested that to me, she

15:53

said I think your books would

15:55

fit in amateur sleuth,

15:55

traditional detective, so people

15:59

who like this sort of British

15:59

detective mysteries and the

16:03

Sherlock Holmes and mine are a

16:03

little more character driven,

16:08

but they those people tend to

16:08

really love it. It's really

16:13

enjoy the characters follow the

16:13

clues unravel the mystery and as

16:17

a result with my fourth book,

16:17

I've, I got a review from Windy

16:23

City reviews. And it's the best

16:23

review I've ever gotten in my

16:26

life like I was so thrilled that

16:26

the reviewer actually mentioned

16:30

Louise Penny, who I love in the

16:30

review as another author whose

16:35

book she loved and Jo nesbo. And

16:35

I thought, yeah, this is I, I

16:39

found my target reader. She's

16:39

someone who loves detective

16:42

novels, who loves the unraveling

16:42

the clues, and it was clear, I

16:47

had found the target reader. So

16:47

it only took me you know, three

16:51

years and four books to to

16:51

narrow it down it not that I

16:56

wasn't reaching any readers

16:56

before that. But I kept sort of

17:00

looking through those reviews

17:00

and seeing Oh, if someone

17:02

doesn't like it, what else did

17:02

they read? If they do love it?

17:06

What else do they read? And what

17:06

words do they use to describe

17:08

it.

17:09

But I think that's a

17:09

fantastic example of how it's an

17:13

ever evolving thing, being a

17:13

writer, we don't get it all,

17:17

especially as Indians, we don't

17:17

get it, we don't understand

17:19

every facet of the publishing

17:19

space away. It takes us a bit of

17:23

time to find what we love to

17:23

write, where our readers are,

17:27

how to express what the kind of

17:27

book is, and the story is and,

17:30

and even those other things like

17:30

writing the correct blurb so

17:34

that it engages a user, and then

17:34

the color Of course, all these

17:38

things are trial and error. And

17:38

so I think that's a really great

17:44

sort of message for everybody

17:44

that, you know, you're doing

17:47

very, very well. But it's, it's

17:47

again, it's trial and error and

17:50

finding finding the way forward.

17:50

So thank you very much for

17:53

sharing that with us. That's great.

17:55

I'm glad you

17:55

mentioned. Oh, I'm sorry. If I

17:57

was to say I'm glad you

17:57

mentioned the blurbs because

18:00

yeah, at first I was writing

18:00

them more like thriller blurbs.

18:04

And I used a book description

18:04

service for the first book too.

18:08

And I went to look back and

18:08

looked at the language that they

18:12

used. That improved it and it

18:12

included language that went more

18:17

toward the detective, you know,

18:17

follow the clues unravel the

18:20

lies. And I thought, oh, clever,

18:20

amateur sleuth. And I thought

18:26

Oh, okay. Yeah. If you're

18:26

presenting your book as a

18:29

thriller, people expect a

18:29

thriller. So it is yeah, it is

18:34

good to always kind of look back

18:34

if your sales are not where you

18:37

hoped or your reviews are not

18:37

what you hoped. See if you can

18:40

figure out maybe your blurb is

18:40

targeting is just needs to be

18:43

tweaked a little.

18:45

Yeah, yeah,

18:45

absolutely. I'm still doing that

18:47

myself. I'm still figuring it

18:47

all out.

18:50

I don't think it's ever finished.

18:53

So let's move on to

18:53

your other series, which does

18:56

fit very clearly within the

18:56

supernatural thriller and so

19:00

tell us a bit more about that

19:00

series as well.

19:03

Yeah, that one I. So

19:03

I used to read a ton of horror

19:09

and not not like not slasher or

19:09

gory, but the kind of what I

19:15

think of as quiet horror. And I

19:15

was a huge fan of the book,

19:18

Rosemary's Baby, which now is is

19:18

quite old, but a classic. And

19:24

then the Do you remember the

19:24

book that Da Vinci Code with?

19:28

There was such a huge interest

19:28

in that and whenever I talk to

19:33

women about it, they would say

19:33

part of what fascinated them was

19:38

this alternate view of the

19:38

Christian religion of how in the

19:46

book or in the books the

19:46

feminine side of God had been

19:51

sort of removed. So part of that

19:51

background plotline it's is that

19:55

there was this femininity here

19:55

and I started thinking What

20:00

would happen if you brought

20:00

those things together the

20:02

Rosemary's Baby idea and this

20:02

idea of the Divine Feminine so

20:06

by the awakening series started

20:06

as kind of a cross between

20:10

Rosemary's Baby and the Da Vinci

20:10

Code and you have this young

20:14

woman who's in college and she's

20:14

discovered she's pregnant, and

20:18

she has never had sex, not for

20:18

religious reasons for very

20:21

practical ones and there is this

20:21

one this like religious cult of

20:27

these powerful men who think,

20:27

Oh, this is going to change the

20:32

world. This is going to trigger

20:32

the apocalypse. And then you

20:34

have other all these people

20:34

telling her what it means. And

20:38

it focuses on her discovering

20:38

what does this mean? What is her

20:43

role is her child about saving

20:43

the world, destroying the world

20:47

evil good, really explores all

20:47

those things, but in the context

20:52

of this one is definitely a

20:52

thriller very fast paced, and I

20:56

just it, I had so much fun with

20:56

it. And it also was such a

21:02

compelling idea to me,

21:02

essentially, I thought, what

21:05

would happen if a young woman

21:05

today found herself pregnant

21:10

couldn't explain it? What would

21:10

her boyfriend say? What would

21:12

her family say? And then what

21:12

happens when all these other

21:16

forces come in convinced that it

21:16

means one thing or another,

21:20

she's evil, she's amazing. She's

21:20

gonna save the world. It's the

21:24

end of the world.

21:25

Interesting premise there. And I love that you've done what Stephen King and other

21:27

horror writer says he always

21:30

says to me, you know, when he's

21:30

coming up with his ideas, it's

21:33

what if I put this with that

21:33

what would happen? If, and so

21:36

you've kind of malga mated these

21:36

two to come up with this amazing

21:39

series. sounds quite what's the

21:39

word I'm looking for? And, you

21:46

know, big and scope kind of not

21:46

just one man trying to survive

21:53

but actually kind of a global

21:53

what could be a global impact

21:56

with the

21:58

Yeah, very like, be

21:58

you know, faded the worlds kind

22:02

of, which is probably why it

22:02

ended up taking for books to

22:05

finish that the story and people

22:05

sometimes readers will ask me,

22:10

will I write anymore, but it

22:10

really, maybe at some point,

22:14

it'll occur to me something else

22:14

I could do with it. But I I felt

22:17

like it really was this story

22:17

arc and at some point you have,

22:22

I think you have to resolve that

22:22

and not just kind of keep

22:25

stringing it along.

22:27

So to, to add kind

22:27

of mystery genres, there are two

22:34

different series as but very

22:34

different kind of feels to them.

22:38

Is there an overlap in terms of

22:38

how you approach because you

22:42

mentioned there that you, you

22:42

plot? Is there a difference in

22:46

what's expected in terms of how

22:46

you plot the story, you know, is

22:51

there so in a thriller is sort

22:51

in a Cozy Mystery or an amateur

22:58

sleuth? Like in a thriller do

22:58

have that inciting incident

23:02

really close up up front? And

23:02

it's very dramatic? And it sets

23:05

kind of like you need the body

23:05

up front from that one as well.

23:08

or other? New Where are the

23:08

overlaps of the two? And where

23:11

do they differ? I guess it's my question.

23:13

Yes, there are

23:13

definitely overlaps. And you're

23:16

right, the inciting incident.

23:16

And this is partly my own, I

23:20

used to joke if if somebody

23:20

doesn't die on page one, I don't

23:23

want to read the book. Because

23:23

Because when I was in law

23:27

school, and as a lawyer, I had

23:27

to plow through so much. There's

23:32

so much difficult reading

23:32

involved. So when I want to read

23:35

for fun, I want it to grab me

23:35

immediately. I don't literally

23:38

put a dead body on page one. But

23:38

yes, in both of those, I think

23:43

you need your inciting incident

23:43

very early, because that or at

23:46

least something that tells the

23:46

reader that it's coming and that

23:53

is a much faster shot than a lot

23:53

of books and there's also

23:56

overlap, I generally use the

23:56

same plot structure to start

24:01

with where I look at how it

24:01

starts, I look at the major plot

24:05

turns, I tried to do a really

24:05

strong midpoint of the story.

24:09

The differences are more in in

24:09

pacing. So with thriller may

24:14

mess move much quicker, you have

24:14

much bigger, more dramatic

24:17

things happening almost at the

24:17

end of every chapter. In any

24:23

book, it's good to have a hook

24:23

at the end of every chapter, but

24:25

they're kind of much bigger. So

24:25

when the awakening series is

24:29

used, that it's almost a global

24:29

story. So everything is there's

24:33

more in the way of explosions

24:33

and secret meetings and somebody

24:38

disappears and someone gets

24:38

kidnapped and it's there's much

24:43

more of that were in the QC

24:43

Davis mysteries. It's a little

24:47

bit more step by step you still

24:47

have these major turns at the

24:51

same places, but in between one

24:51

reviewer described it as you

24:55

know quill peeling back delicate

24:55

layers to find the truth which

25:01

Yeah, is not in the awakening

25:01

series that that is not going to

25:04

work. You know, we need a car

25:04

chase here and there. But also

25:08

similar in that I do I feel like

25:08

both I really go into the

25:12

characters, they're still very

25:12

character based, but the

25:16

thriller series much quicker and

25:16

nothing supernatural in the QC

25:20

mysteries.

25:21

Okay, interesting.

25:21

So I'm going to change tack just

25:25

a little bit, because I know

25:25

that as well as writing your own

25:29

fiction, you help others do the

25:29

same. And one of the ways you do

25:34

that is with your podcast, you

25:34

have a podcast called Buffy and

25:37

the art of story. So I'm taking

25:37

it, you're a big Buffy fan. And

25:41

that's where that idea came from.

25:43

Yes, I am a huge

25:43

Buffy fan. I watched it when it

25:48

when it came out. And then I was

25:48

thrilled when this is old

25:52

technology now, but when DVDs

25:52

became available, and that's the

25:57

first time I truly saw how the

25:57

show told this season long story

26:03

arc, which was more like a

26:03

novel. And that was very new. At

26:06

that point, it may have been the

26:06

first show that did that TV used

26:09

to be much more episodic. So I

26:09

found it so much more

26:12

interesting. And I have probably

26:12

watched the whole series here at

26:16

least a dozen times. There's

26:16

always something new in it. And

26:20

I also I learned so much about

26:20

writing from it. So a cutting

26:26

edge to 2019. I was thinking

26:26

about I really wanted to do a

26:30

podcast. And I listened to a lot

26:30

of writing podcasts like yours,

26:35

a number of other ones, their

26:35

creative pen. And I thought what

26:40

what do I have to add to this?

26:40

There's so many voices out

26:44

there. And I thought, Oh, I love

26:44

Buffy. And I can use that. So

26:50

what I do is watch every episode

26:50

of Buffy and break it down from

26:55

a story perspective, looking at

26:55

the major plot points, how the

26:58

characters develop the themes

26:58

and how those are conveyed? Does

27:02

it work? Does it not the pace,

27:02

both on an individual basis and

27:06

then I do a little spoiler for

27:06

shattering section in case

27:09

there's anyone out there who

27:09

hasn't seen all of it? And talk

27:12

about how does this episode

27:12

relate to the bigger story arc

27:16

of the season or this series.

27:18

You'll be horrified

27:18

to hear that I've never watched

27:21

Buffy kind of bypassed me a bit.

27:21

So maybe this is my opportunity

27:25

to go back and watch them and

27:25

have the study notes with your

27:29

podcast as my study notes beside

27:29

it. And watch how the how they

27:33

crafted the story so...

27:34

Yeah, and see and you won't have to worry about spoilers.

27:41

So not only do you

27:41

have podcasts, but you also have

27:43

a website called writing as a

27:43

second career. And so what

27:47

prompted you to develop that

27:47

particular side of your writing

27:51

life as well.

27:53

I went to a few in

27:53

person indie author conferences,

27:59

when independent or self

27:59

publishing was somewhat new, and

28:05

I went attended some video

28:05

conferences. And they were

28:09

extremely helpful. And at the

28:09

same time as someone who had

28:13

been in the legal field and a

28:13

professional for most of my life

28:16

even before that, yeah, when I

28:16

was a paralegal, I went to work,

28:19

I had to wear a suit. I for me,

28:19

I had to kind of get past that

28:25

this was a different world

28:25

because to me, when you go to a

28:27

conference, you should everyone

28:27

should be dressed well, and you

28:32

know, look, look professional in

28:32

what in my mind was

28:36

professional. So I had to kind

28:36

of work past Oh, I'm watching

28:38

this video with this guy and a T

28:38

shirt that's kind of pulled out

28:42

a shape. And it looks like he's

28:42

sitting in his parents basement.

28:46

And my initial reaction was,

28:46

which shows how we judge people,

28:50

but certainly in court and

28:50

stuff. That is how people end up

28:54

being judged. And I think well,

28:54

what can this person had to tell

28:57

me and then I'd take a breath

28:57

and listen, and I learned so

29:00

much. So some of my thought was

29:00

one to create something for

29:05

people who maybe they're coming

29:05

to this space, and they want to

29:08

talk to or hear from someone who

29:08

is managing another career or

29:14

another job also particularly,

29:14

that's sort of the optics of it.

29:18

But the time issue, you and I

29:18

were talking about making time

29:21

to write. And if you're going to

29:21

publish your own work, or even

29:25

if someone else publishes it

29:25

time to market, how do you

29:28

juggle all that? How do you fit

29:28

all that in because most

29:32

writers, even some of the ones

29:32

you see on the bookshelves all

29:36

the time are still working at

29:36

some other job, or maybe they're

29:41

caring for children, and they

29:41

have to fit in their writing

29:45

here and there, which is

29:45

essentially for years I would

29:49

write in 15 minute bursts or I'm

29:49

sitting at court and I'm

29:51

scribbling in my notebook while

29:51

I wait for my case to be called.

29:55

So I wanted to address that and

29:55

it seemed to me there was so

29:59

much out there. That wasn't

29:59

really hitting that market. So I

30:03

would get, I still get calls

30:03

from other lawyers or referrals

30:07

from friends of friends saying,

30:07

Oh, I have this friend who's a

30:10

lawyer or an accountant or an

30:10

insurance adjuster, and they're

30:13

writing a book and they want to

30:13

talk to someone of how do you

30:16

manage this? So that's a very

30:16

long answer. But that was the

30:19

inspiration for it.

30:21

It's a good

30:21

question. Because you know, you

30:24

you still, although you said

30:24

it's part time you still

30:26

practice and teach law. You're

30:26

doing your own writing, you're

30:29

doing the podcast, you're doing

30:29

the website and coaching. How do

30:33

you fit all in? The so how do

30:33

you?

30:36

It's it's definitely

30:36

tricky. I do a lot of each week,

30:43

I try to sit down and I look

30:43

ahead and schedule my time, my

30:47

time and I, I try to keep

30:47

certain hours, like Monday

30:52

through Friday, I try to make at

30:52

least three hours each morning

30:56

writing. So whether it's writing

30:56

fiction, or writing a nonfiction

31:00

book, those are my writing

31:00

hours. So the week before, I'll

31:04

figure out, Okay, what am I

31:04

working on that week, and then

31:07

I'll have certain hours that are

31:07

marketing, the podcast takes a

31:10

lot of time. So I know there are

31:10

certain big chunks that I have

31:13

to fit in, and then I'll have

31:13

what are the smaller things to

31:18

do to fit in between. And then I

31:18

also which I think is more key,

31:23

I do for the year, what I think

31:23

I would like what I would like

31:27

to accomplish my goals. And then

31:27

every couple months, I sit down

31:31

and say okay, for the next two

31:31

months, what were How am I going

31:36

to make progress on this is it

31:36

I'm going to get a first draft

31:40

of the novel done. I'm going to

31:40

release X amount of podcast

31:45

episodes. And usually I don't

31:45

get everything done. So it's

31:48

it's very aspirational. But it

31:48

really helps keep me on track.

31:52

And I try to really stick with

31:52

that. Because otherwise I have

31:56

found I look back and I've been

31:56

very, very busy. But I can't

32:00

always it's sometimes hard to

32:00

see. Yeah, what what I've

32:04

accomplished. Usually I have

32:04

accomplished things, but maybe

32:07

it's not the ones that were the

32:07

most important. Yeah. So I feel

32:11

like the priority is the big

32:11

thing. What is what is the main

32:14

thing I want to do that

32:14

particular month or that

32:17

particular week?

32:18

I love that you've

32:18

said that because being busy and

32:20

being productive are two very

32:20

different things. I have to

32:23

catch myself as well and Emma

32:23

just being busy.

32:28

Oh, yeah, it took me

32:28

a long time, partly because in

32:34

my legal career, most of my work

32:34

when the deadlines are imposed

32:38

from outside, so it tells me

32:38

what the priorities are I that

32:42

isn't really my choice. And then

32:42

I generally get paid by the

32:48

hour. So as long as I am making

32:48

progress, being busy generally

32:53

is being productive, because I'm

32:53

getting those things done and

32:56

going forward. And I know what I

32:56

have to do. And yeah, it took a

32:59

long time to make that

32:59

connection of Oh, just because I

33:02

worked eight hours today. I may

33:02

have spent a lot of it on things

33:08

that sure they're sort of

33:08

helpful, but not not the ones

33:13

that really matter. Yeah. So I

33:13

think that is a huge thing,

33:17

especially when you have limited

33:17

time, if you have half an hour,

33:21

where is that going to do the

33:21

most for you? And then what do

33:24

you enjoy? That's important as

33:24

well, that basically.

33:26

Yeah, it's got to be

33:26

fun. You mustn't forget about

33:28

that. Now, you mentioned just

33:28

before your nonfiction books,

33:32

which I haven't yet asked you

33:32

about. So could you tell our

33:35

listeners a little bit about

33:35

those as well.

33:38

I started the first

33:38

one super simple story

33:42

structure. Initially, I was

33:42

writing it as a free download

33:46

for the website for people to

33:46

join my email list, but it ended

33:50

up being a book. So now what you

33:50

can get is, is the worksheets

33:53

that go with it free. And it

33:53

it's a relatively short book,

33:58

but it's aimed at that sort of

33:58

in between plotting and winging

34:05

it or discovery writing or

34:05

pantsing. So it's a very loose

34:10

structure where you pick out the

34:10

the inciting incident the major

34:14

plot points. And then if you're

34:14

someone who likes to wing it,

34:17

you might just write from there,

34:17

but you at least know where

34:20

you're going. It especially

34:20

focuses on the middle of the

34:24

book where a lot of writers

34:24

struggle, how to make that very

34:27

strong. And if you're more of an

34:27

outliner I, I usually will do a

34:32

little bit of outlining in

34:32

between each of those plot

34:35

points. But if you don't have

34:35

to, so it's a nice in between

34:38

and I found that it really

34:38

resonated with people. We were

34:43

talking about marketing on the

34:43

fiction side, you're doing all

34:45

this to try to get people to see

34:45

your book. In the beginning I

34:48

didn't do anything and marketed

34:48

I just put it up there and and

34:52

people started buying it and

34:52

commenting on it and emailing me

34:57

so then I expanded I did one

34:57

Under the books is is very much

35:01

timing. It's called the one year

35:01

novelist. So it is how do you

35:05

fit that in, if you want to

35:05

write a novel in a year, you can

35:08

expand it or contract it, but

35:08

it's almost a schedule that

35:11

walks you through and kind of

35:11

encourages you to do that. And

35:15

then I have one on character, I

35:15

have a book for sixth through

35:19

eighth graders, that's

35:19

essentially how to write a novel

35:22

following that same structure,

35:22

but on a more examples that are

35:26

more relevant for that age

35:26

group, because I always use

35:31

examples of movies or books so

35:31

that you can see how these

35:35

things work. So that that's the

35:35

core of it. And my next book I'm

35:40

hoping to do will be a more

35:40

overall book on writer's block

35:44

and getting you know, getting

35:44

yourself writing and keeping

35:47

yourself writing.

35:49

Well, that leads me

35:49

nicely into my next question,

35:52

which is also are you working on

35:52

at the moment? Are you doing

35:55

both fiction and nonfiction or

35:55

concentrating on the nonfiction

35:58

at the moment?

35:59

I usually alternate.

35:59

So I, I'll finish a draft of a

36:04

novel and then I'll work on let

36:04

it sit and work on a nonfiction

36:08

book. And then I'll come back

36:08

revise, so I'll go between them

36:11

so that each one get some time

36:11

to sit. So right now, I am just

36:16

finishing a novella in the QC

36:16

Davis mystery series, which will

36:19

be for my email list

36:19

subscribers, I wanted to do

36:23

something really of substance

36:23

for them. And then yes, I plan

36:29

to work on that writer's block

36:29

book. And I also do the Buffy in

36:34

the art of story podcast, you

36:34

can read. I've compiled that

36:38

into books as well. So there's

36:38

one available for season one.

36:42

There's one for the first half

36:42

of season two, because it's much

36:45

longer and so that will be the

36:45

next project is getting that

36:49

second half of season two out

36:49

there.

36:52

The idea yeah, so

36:52

that people can go back and

36:54

study it and kind of sort of

36:54

digest at their leisure. That's

36:58

a great idea.

37:00

You are our podcast

37:00

listeners. Oh.

37:04

You are a busy busy

37:04

lady. Yeah. So tell me where can

37:08

listeners where can listeners

37:08

find out more about you online?

37:12

Yes, they can. For

37:12

my fiction can go to

37:16

Lisalily.com. So that's

37:16

Lisalilly.com and if you go to

37:22

that slash free, the first in my

37:22

each of my series is free that

37:27

both the supernatural thriller

37:27

and mystery for writers looking

37:31

for resources writing as a

37:31

secondcareer.com. There's books

37:35

on writing there. There's lots

37:35

of articles about writing,

37:39

publishing, marketing and some

37:39

free downloads. And then for the

37:43

podcast. You can find that at

37:43

Lisalilly.com/buffystory.

37:49

Fantastic. Wow.

37:49

Brilliant. Well, Lisa, thank you

37:52

so so much for your time today.

37:52

I really enjoyed speaking to

37:54

you.

37:55

Oh, it's been

37:55

wonderful. Thank you for having

37:57

me on. And it was really

37:57

terrific.

38:02

Well, thank you so

38:02

much for joining me today. I

38:05

hope you find that helpful and

38:05

inspirational. Now, don't forget

38:10

to come on over to facebook and

38:10

join my group, Turning Readers

38:14

into Writers. It is especially

38:14

for you if you are a beginner

38:18

writer who is looking to write

38:18

their first novel. If you join

38:22

the group, you will also find a

38:22

free cheat sheet there called

38:26

three secret hacks to write with

38:26

consistency. So go to

38:30

emmadhesi.com/turning readers

38:30

into writers. Hit join. Can't

38:36

wait to see you in there. All

38:36

right. Thank you. Bye bye.