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30 Top Tips. Okay, let's dive in

1:47

to today's episode September C.

1:47

Fawkes approach to editing has

1:51

been described as thorough,

1:51

precise and kind. She has worked

1:55

in the fiction writing industry

1:55

for over eight years, and has

1:59

been editing stories for even

1:59

longer than that. She has edited

2:03

for both award winning and best

2:03

selling authors, and has worked

2:06

on manuscripts written for

2:06

middle grade young adult and

2:10

adult readers. With most of her

2:10

experience being in the genres

2:13

of fantasy and science fiction.

2:13

Previous to freelance editing,

2:18

she was mentored by a creative

2:18

writing professor, and award

2:22

winning international best

2:22

selling author and a

2:24

professional editor. So let's

2:24

delve into today's episode where

2:29

September gives us a one on one

2:29

tutorial on the different types

2:34

of cliffhanger there are and

2:34

when and if you should use them

2:39

to let's find out more. Well,

2:39

welcome, September. Thank you so

2:42

much for joining me on the

2:42

podcast today. It's really great

2:45

to have you here.

2:46

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

2:49

And so I'd love to

2:49

just start with our unit. You

2:52

know, what was your journey to

2:52

writing to publication to

2:55

editing? How did you get to

2:55

where we are now?

2:57

Yeah, so

2:57

I'm kind of one of those I feel

3:01

like it's a little cliche,

3:01

always wanted to work in this

3:04

industry always wanted to write

3:04

or edit. And really, I wrote my

3:10

first story when I was like

3:10

seven and I was like hooked, and

3:13

I edited it to has like, in

3:13

fact, my mom was really smart.

3:17

So she kept it, we still have it

3:17

and I have an amoled binder It

3:21

was about chickens or something

3:21

because we own chickens. But

3:23

anyway, I had like blocked out

3:23

like lines I have, you know

3:28

changed or whatever so has like

3:28

all this stuff crossed out and

3:31

like things are misspelled. But

3:31

anyway, so that was kind of my

3:34

first experience with that and I

3:34

was kind of hooked after that.

3:38

Um, sometimes I feel like people

3:38

get this idea though that you

3:40

have to have quote like always

3:40

wanted, you know, to be in this

3:43

industry to be successful. I

3:43

don't feel that way at all. But

3:47

I kind of was interested in that

3:47

all growing up from that from

3:51

that first time and knew this is

3:51

kind of my planet was I wanted

3:55

to work in this industry with

3:55

have with that said I didn't

3:59

have a lot of you know, any kind

3:59

of professional training or

4:03

anything like that going on.

4:03

Luckily now we have so much

4:06

stuff on the internet, like even

4:06

this podcast back, which I feel

4:10

like wasn't that long ago. But

4:10

even just like when I was

4:12

growing up, I didn't have access

4:12

to a lot of those things on the

4:15

internet wasn't, you know, on

4:15

there, I didn't know where to

4:17

look. So like I did it. Like I

4:17

would write and my friends would

4:22

share stories and things all the

4:22

time. But I still felt like as I

4:27

became an adult I wanted to get

4:27

serious into it. In some ways. I

4:30

feel like I still had to start

4:30

at the beginning because I

4:33

didn't have all that, you know,

4:33

I don't have any training or

4:36

mentorship. I shouldn't say I

4:36

didn't have any you know,

4:39

because obviously, I took

4:39

English classes and stuff

4:43

growing up, but I still had a

4:43

lot to learn. So from there, I

4:48

went to college and I got my

4:48

degree in English. And so that's

4:52

when I kind of started getting

4:52

more of a sense of kind of

4:56

professional or industry and

4:56

what's expected and I became the

5:01

managing first I was the fiction

5:01

editor. And then I was the

5:03

managing editor of their

5:03

literary journal. So I kind of

5:06

did that and had that

5:06

experience. And then after

5:09

college, I started working as an

5:09

assistant for New York Times

5:14

bestselling writer, his name is

5:14

David Farland. He also does

5:18

freelance editing. So, um, after

5:18

working for him for a while, he

5:22

had me start going through

5:22

manuscripts, um, first, you

5:26

know, and then he kind of go

5:26

through after, so I kind of got

5:29

more editing experience with

5:29

that, I started my blog. And

5:35

that's been a great little

5:35

project where I just share my

5:38

ideas about writing or what I've

5:38

learned about writing on the

5:40

hire. And from there, I started

5:40

doing my own freelance editing

5:46

services. So now, I've worked

5:46

for myself that way, and I edit

5:49

people's manuscripts that way.

5:49

So it's kind of the basic

5:52

journey, I guess. I don't know

5:52

if you have any additional

5:55

questions or anything about

5:55

that, but that's kind of my

5:59

story. Yeah.

6:00

Cool. Yeah, no,

6:00

we'll do I'll follow up on that

6:03

a bit. Later on, we'll get

6:03

further along. But you mentioned

6:06

your, your website there. I

6:06

know, you've got two websites.

6:11

One is predominantly your blog,

6:11

which we'll come to. But the

6:14

other one is sort of more for

6:14

your, the editing work that you

6:19

do people specifically looking

6:19

for an editor, you also have

6:22

this great page on that website

6:22

called writing tips. And when I

6:27

was looking through it, I love

6:27

what I love about it is you've

6:30

broken it down into different

6:30

sections. So you might have you

6:35

know, how to write the beginning

6:35

of your book, How to brainstorm

6:38

how to write about characters or

6:38

write dialogue, such a useful

6:42

index such a useful resource,

6:42

and what prompts you to put it

6:46

all together like that? So was

6:46

there a sort of a crying demand

6:49

for it?

6:51

Um, I think

6:51

just, I thought would be

6:54

helpful. Okay. Well, I will say

6:54

part of it's also for me, as I

6:58

like to have these things

6:58

organized on a website. So I can

7:01

just go click and look for what

7:01

I'm looking for wherever I'm at.

7:05

But I just thought it would be

7:05

really helpful to have things a

7:07

lot of things that were

7:07

organized by topic, just when

7:10

we're kind of scrolling through,

7:10

you know, on a website. Okay,

7:13

here's the topic that I'm

7:13

looking at, here's different,

7:15

you know, things that I can

7:15

click on. A lot of them are,

7:19

well, most of them are really

7:19

are articles that I've written

7:22

from my blog. But I do have some

7:22

other articles in there that I

7:25

often refer people to that maybe

7:25

already explained something

7:28

that, you know, I haven't

7:28

written something on, or they've

7:31

already done a good job on

7:31

explaining it. So I'll send them

7:34

there. Some of them are just

7:34

articles, like when I'm editing

7:37

that I might suggest to people

7:37

who are working on certain

7:40

things. And I just think that's

7:40

kind of a helpful way to learn

7:44

more about the craft, and like,

7:44

have it organized in that way

7:48

you can go on there, you can

7:48

learn more about the craft and

7:51

kind of help. I mean, it's great

7:51

to have an editor, but you also

7:54

need to know like the craft

7:54

yourself, obviously. And it's

7:57

good to be like a self editor

7:57

too. So the idea for that is

8:01

just to make it more accessible.

8:01

And so people can look up, like

8:04

whatever topic they're

8:04

struggling with, they can go

8:07

read about it. And hopefully, I

8:07

mean, I feel like there's a lot

8:10

of stuff on there. But I keep,

8:10

you know, keep updated and keep

8:13

trying to add to it. So there's

8:15

There's more there

8:15

is there's a lot of stuff. And

8:17

I'm gonna link specifically to

8:17

that page for people I really

8:19

think people should go and take

8:19

a look at it will be a real,

8:22

just one of those tabs you can

8:22

have open on your desktop. So

8:25

you can refer to that regularly.

8:25

I think it's great. But they do

8:30

have your blog, as we've

8:30

mentioned before, and it's a

8:34

fantastic blog, because a prize

8:34

winning an award winning blog

8:39

today, yeah...

8:40

Well, yeah,

8:40

it's funny about that. So it's a

8:43

Writer's Digest, which if people

8:43

don't know, it's a pretty well

8:47

known magazine for fiction

8:47

writing. They do awards every

8:51

year. And it's funny because I

8:51

had this dream that maybe

8:54

someday, you know, when soared.

8:54

And I guess I want it but I

8:58

didn't know, I don't know how

8:58

that happened. And so it wasn't

9:02

till like months and months

9:02

later, I found out on accident

9:07

that I had won. And so that was

9:07

really exciting for me. So yeah,

9:11

I did win the Writer's Digest

9:11

award. So that was fun,

9:14

exciting. So

9:16

Well, I'm not

9:16

surprised. It's really great.

9:18

And I am on your mailing list.

9:18

And and I got, you know, an

9:24

email come through to tell me

9:24

about the most recent one, which

9:27

is about cliffhangers. And we

9:27

were chatting just before we

9:31

press record that that is not

9:31

often you see something written

9:35

about cliffhanger. So I was

9:35

really intrigued to to read it.

9:38

And it seems that they're quite

9:38

contentious that some people

9:42

love to have a cliffhanger in

9:42

the book at the end of the

9:44

chapter perhaps. And then others

9:44

really don't like it at all. So

9:48

I wondered what your opinion was

9:48

on it. You know, is it ever good

9:51

to use a cliffhanger or

9:51

generally they should be

9:55

avoided? What do you think?

9:56

Yeah, yeah,

9:56

it is funny because I have

9:59

talked to people that have Very

9:59

strong feelings about Cliff

10:01

fingers, which is a little I

10:01

think it's a little funny, but I

10:04

mean, I can get it. You know,

10:04

people don't like having to wait

10:08

or whatever. Um, but I'm

10:08

actually I actually like Cliff

10:12

fingers. Both definitely, you

10:12

know, as somebody who's working

10:16

on a project to make it better.

10:16

But also, I don't know, even as

10:20

an audience member, I like them.

10:20

And I like to hate them

10:23

sometimes. Because you're kind

10:23

of like, oh, why do I have to

10:25

wait, you know? And so sometimes

10:25

I wonder for some people, my Do

10:29

you really absolutely hate them?

10:29

Or do you like to hate them? I

10:32

don't know. But people usually a

10:32

lot of people have strong

10:34

feelings about them. Um, one of

10:34

the common things that people

10:38

say about cliffhangers is that,

10:38

you know, it's good to have a

10:41

cliffhanger to get the audience

10:41

to start the next chapter, or

10:44

turn the page or start the next

10:44

episode. And that's absolutely

10:48

true. I mean, obviously, if

10:48

you're going to suddenly cut

10:51

something off that somebody the

10:51

audience really wants to know,

10:53

and you cut away from the

10:53

narrative, they're going to want

10:56

to see what happens next. And,

10:56

um, so it is really effective

10:59

that way, but I kind of feel

10:59

like saying, that's the only way

11:02

it's effective. I feel like

11:02

that, to me, that feels a little

11:05

shallow. I feel like there's

11:05

more to it than that. And I

11:08

mean, you could just add a bunch

11:08

of tried to add a bunch of

11:11

cliffhangers and then still have

11:11

enough be a great story, you

11:14

know, and so, um, I feel like,

11:14

another good way to use them is

11:18

when you have a cliffhanger, I

11:18

guess the audience a second to

11:22

pause and think about what's

11:22

happening, or what they think is

11:25

gonna happen. And so like maybe

11:25

a good example of this as if

11:29

you're writing like a murder

11:29

mystery, you know, and they're

11:31

about to figure out who the

11:31

murderer is, maybe they're about

11:36

to mask them, you cut away. So

11:36

there's a cliffhanger that gives

11:39

the audience a second to kind of

11:39

pause and think, who do I think

11:43

is under the mask who do I think

11:43

is the murderer. And usually,

11:47

like, the cliffhanger is going

11:47

to come out of like, every, you

11:50

know, obviously a powerful moment, because we want to see what happened that what happens

11:52

next. And so sometimes I feel

11:55

like the audience will just want

11:55

to keep, you know, pushing

11:58

reading through it, which is

11:58

okay, we want them to feel that

12:01

way. But when you have a

12:01

cliffhanger, they're forced to

12:03

kind of stop and think for

12:03

themselves. And so that's an

12:07

example of like, you know, maybe

12:07

thinking, like predicting we

12:11

think is going to happen, but

12:11

sometimes a certain cliffhangers

12:14

when you stop it makes people

12:14

kind of self evaluate, or I

12:18

guess ask themselves like, what,

12:18

what would I do next? Or how

12:21

would I get out of the

12:21

situation. And I think those two

12:24

things are really effective.

12:24

They also, um, in that sense,

12:28

you're, you're inviting the

12:28

audience to participate in the

12:31

story. So sometimes I feel like

12:31

one thing I have to watch out

12:34

for is we might write stories,

12:34

that audience feels more like a

12:38

spectator, as opposed to feeling

12:38

like they're kind of like

12:41

they're in the story. And so I

12:41

feel like if you put the

12:44

cliffhanger in the right spot

12:44

like that, they're being asked,

12:47

they're being invited,

12:47

participate more by pausing and

12:50

thinking, What's going to happen

12:50

next. Beyond that, I think

12:54

they're also good for like, and

12:54

really emphasizing a moment of

12:58

suspense or shock, or wherever

12:58

you put it, because that's a

13:02

moment the audience has to sit

13:02

with that a little bit longer.

13:06

And obviously, if you have it,

13:06

like at the end of the chapter,

13:09

even just that whitespace, of

13:09

flipping, flipping over to the

13:12

next chapter, you know, it just

13:12

kind of adds emphasis to

13:16

whatever you made a cliffhanger

13:16

about.

13:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I

13:19

hadn't thought about it in that,

13:22

that way, that it's not just

13:22

about getting them to turn the

13:25

page, but actually to have a

13:25

moment to where Have a think and

13:29

pause and get almost more

13:29

involved with the story? Because

13:32

they're thinking about it. Yeah.

13:32

You mentioned in the article

13:36

that there are the four types of

13:36

cliffhangers with that be sort

13:41

of two of them, or whether

13:41

they're more times,

13:44

I'm kind of

13:44

Yeah, well, so I will say if you

13:49

go read up on cliffhangers,

13:49

people will categorize them

13:52

differently. So, I mean, this is

13:52

the way that I categorize them.

13:56

And it's kind of based on

13:56

structure. So um, and story

14:01

structure, you know, you're

14:01

going to have the rising action,

14:03

the climax and the falling

14:03

action. That's kind of the basic

14:06

structure. And that will be true

14:06

of the whole plot. But it's also

14:10

true, like on smaller things,

14:10

like within a scene, you're

14:14

going to have like a climactic

14:14

moment, or within you know, an

14:19

act. So maybe the beginning,

14:19

middle and end, there's going to

14:22

be a climactic moment within,

14:22

you know, it's kind of like I

14:25

think of it as like a Russian

14:25

nesting doll that you have the

14:28

smaller you have smaller shapes

14:28

and size, the bigger shapes

14:31

anyway, so the climactic moment

14:31

is sometimes called like a

14:35

turning point because it turns

14:35

the direction of the story. So

14:40

it really can turn two ways you

14:40

can either have like a

14:44

revelations, like new

14:44

information enters the story,

14:48

that changes our understanding

14:48

or direction of it. The second

14:51

way is an action, you know,

14:51

something happens that changes

14:54

the direction of the story. So

14:54

um, even on a scene level,

14:59

you're gonna have Ideally, if

14:59

you have things structured well

15:02

and you have a plot that keeps

15:02

moving, there's going to be a

15:05

turning point or climactic

15:05

moment in each scene. So for

15:10

example, if I'm writing an

15:10

example would be like if I'm

15:14

writing a murder mystery story,

15:14

the climactic moment of the

15:18

whole story is probably going to

15:18

be when we figure out who the

15:21

killers. But if I'm just looking

15:21

at a scene, you know, maybe the

15:26

opening scene is when they first

15:26

discovered the dead body, well,

15:29

the climactic moment of that

15:29

scene will probably be will be

15:33

when the dead bodies discovered.

15:33

So that kind of creates a

15:37

climactic. That's a turning

15:37

point, right? Everything's going

15:39

fine, we found a dead body Well,

15:39

now we need to kind of deal with

15:43

that. So keeping that in mind,

15:43

so cliffhangers, I feel like get

15:48

down to knowing where to cut

15:48

away in the narrative. Because

15:53

sometimes I feel like we get

15:53

this idea of Oh, I just need to

15:55

throw in something, I need to

15:55

throw something in really

15:58

shocking. And then cut away. And

15:58

like that can work. I'm not

16:02

saying it can't work. But

16:02

ideally, if you have a great

16:05

plot, and you have your

16:05

structure there, you're going to

16:08

have lots of great moments like

16:08

that What matters is when you

16:11

choose to cut away from the

16:11

narrative. So with that in mind,

16:15

I kind of have a broken down

16:15

four ways based on that. So the

16:20

first one I call like, a pre

16:20

point, cliffhanger. So that's

16:23

going to be before the turning

16:23

point. So um, an example I'll

16:29

give, I think a lot of people

16:29

have seen Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo

16:32

as an example, right? I think

16:32

most of us are familiar with the

16:35

general format of those

16:35

episodes, basically, the Mr.

16:38

Gang goes out, they find you

16:38

know, there's a ghost or there's

16:41

a banshee or something. And

16:41

towards the end of the episode,

16:45

they're gonna mask it and see

16:45

who it is. So, um, the unmasking

16:49

is gonna be like the climactic

16:49

moment the turning point. So a

16:54

pre point cliffhanger is gonna

16:54

be okay, Fred's about to pull

16:58

off the mask, and then we cut

16:58

away to a commercial. And so

17:02

that kind of works in the sense

17:02

that, well, the audience is

17:04

really invested, they're

17:04

anticipating a certain outcome,

17:07

we want to know who the ghost

17:07

is, or whoever, and then we cut

17:11

away. So that plays into the

17:11

example I gave earlier. Well,

17:14

now we have to sit for a second,

17:14

and maybe we'll think about who

17:17

we think it is, or whatever. So

17:17

I would call that a pre point.

17:21

Um, the next one I would call a

17:21

climactic cliffhanger. So when

17:26

you get to the climactic moment,

17:26

the turning point, sometimes in

17:30

some stories, there will

17:30

actually be more than one

17:32

turning point. So a common thing

17:32

that happens in a story is near

17:37

the climax of the whole story,

17:37

there will be like a character,

17:41

the protagonist will have a

17:41

realization that then allows

17:44

them to decide like take an

17:44

action to defeat the antagonist,

17:49

sometimes those can be reverse,

17:49

but, you know, they realized

17:52

something, okay, this is what I need to do to defeat the antagonist. So that's actually

17:54

two turns, the realization and

17:58

the action. So you can create a

17:58

cliffhanger by cutting those in

18:02

half. So you could have the

18:02

character has the realization,

18:06

boom, cliffhanger. And then when

18:06

we come back, he'll take the

18:09

action. And so that kind of

18:09

works in that you have kind of a

18:14

sense, you know, maybe what the

18:14

character is going to do next.

18:17

And we'll have to kind of sit

18:17

with that for a second. So it's

18:20

kind of possible to cut it like

18:20

during the climactic moment that

18:24

way. Um, the next one, the third

18:24

one I call the post point, so

18:30

meaning that it happens just

18:30

after the claim the climactic

18:33

point or turning point. So going

18:33

back to our Scooby Doo example,

18:37

you know, in this scenario, you

18:37

know, Fred goes over to the

18:41

ghost unmasks the ghost. Oh, we

18:41

see it to George, the

18:44

electrician, you know, I'm just

18:44

making this up. The next

18:47

question we come to is, well,

18:47

why, you know, why did George do

18:52

this? What's the motivation?

18:52

What, what are the ramifications

18:55

of this? What are the characters

18:55

going to do now? And so you can

18:59

cut away, right when we realize,

18:59

Oh, it's George, the

19:02

electrician, and that can create

19:02

a good cliffhanger to you know,

19:06

it's a little bit different,

19:06

because we've passed over the

19:08

turning point. But now we have

19:08

new questions about well, what's

19:12

next? Why did he do it? What was

19:12

his motivation? And so in a

19:15

situation like that, um, the

19:15

audience is waiting for, you

19:19

know, like an explanation,

19:19

they're waiting for meaning, or

19:23

what's gonna, you know, what's

19:23

the new direction going to be,

19:25

and so you can cut away right

19:25

there to kind of leave them

19:28

sitting with that. Um, then the

19:28

fourth one, I call the post hook

19:35

cliffhanger. So the idea is so

19:35

the stick you know, rising

19:39

action, climax or turning point

19:39

falling action. If you're

19:43

working in anything smaller than

19:43

the whole story, like if you're

19:46

working with scenes, this is

19:46

gonna repeat itself. You know,

19:51

we're gonna have a scene that

19:51

has rising action climax,

19:54

falling action, the next scene

19:54

is gonna have rising action,

19:56

climax, falling action. And so

19:56

what happens pins here with the

20:01

post hook. Usually, at the

20:01

starting of the scene, you're

20:04

gonna have like a hook,

20:04

hopefully anyway, right? We all

20:07

like hooks. And, um, what you

20:07

can do is you can cut right

20:11

after a hook to create a good

20:11

cliffhanger because a hook is

20:16

usually going to be in this

20:16

situation, usually, it's gonna

20:20

be something like unexpected

20:20

that disrupts what's going on or

20:23

what the characters are trying

20:23

to do. Or might be like laying

20:27

down the stakes, like, what's

20:27

that risk, like, Okay, if we

20:31

don't do this, then this terrible thing is going to happen. And so you can have

20:32

either of those, and then a cut

20:37

away right after that create a

20:37

great cliffhanger. Because now

20:40

you know, we've had the hook, we

20:40

want to know, what's going to

20:43

happen, what's I guess I would

20:43

say, what's the rising action

20:45

going to be? What are they going

20:45

to do? And so it's possible to

20:48

cut right there. I feel like we

20:48

see this a lot in series. And a

20:53

lot of I don't know, you could

20:53

just look at a lot of movies

20:56

like Pirates of the Caribbean

20:56

Marvel does stuff like this,

20:59

where you have like, the whole

20:59

story. There's like the falling

21:02

action, you know, everyone's

21:02

Okay, we say everyone or

21:05

whatever. And then there'll be

21:05

like an additional scene where

21:08

you see, like, the bad guy is

21:08

still alive, and he's planning

21:12

something evil, or, you know,

21:12

someone else is alive. And

21:16

they're like, Hey, we you guys,

21:16

we need to go do this. Now

21:18

there's this other issue. And

21:18

then it like cuts off. And so

21:22

basically, what's happening

21:22

there is we had the whole story,

21:25

we've got the climax, we've got

21:25

the falling action. And then we

21:28

just barely hit a new hook for a

21:28

new, like rising action, which

21:33

is probably going to be the next

21:33

installment, you know. And so by

21:35

ending the book right there,

21:35

like that's a good way to end a

21:39

book if you want to end on a

21:39

cliffhanger, because, um, the

21:42

audience still gets like the

21:42

full story, and they just get

21:45

like a hint of what's gonna come

21:45

next. Whereas if you were to

21:49

just like actually, like cut off

21:49

the book, like a climactic

21:52

moment, or just after it, it

21:52

probably wouldn't be very

21:55

satisfying. So if you want to

21:55

end a book or story with a

21:59

cliffhanger, it's probably

21:59

better to, you know, kind of

22:02

wrap up that plotline, and then

22:02

just give enough of a hook or a

22:05

hint of what's going to happen

22:05

next. And then it. So basically,

22:10

like, I guess the idea with this

22:10

is sometimes we think I got to

22:14

add, I got to add all these

22:14

cliffhangers or I got to add

22:17

something really shocking. But

22:17

the thing is, is when you have

22:20

these pieces together, those

22:20

things are already there, you

22:25

just have to know where to cut

22:25

it. And so those are like the

22:28

four places where you could cut

22:28

away, you might cut to another

22:31

plotline. Another viewpoint. I

22:31

mean, if you're doing

22:33

television, I mean, most people

22:33

are doing books listening, I'm

22:37

more into the books, but you

22:37

know, cut to commercial,

22:40

whatever. But um, it's it's

22:40

gonna create, I guess, I feel

22:45

like it won't create better

22:45

cliffhangers with less mistakes

22:48

that can come up when you're

22:48

just trying to throw and clear

22:50

fingers. Yeah, so those are the

22:50

four types.

22:53

I think that's

22:53

amazing. Because it's, when you

22:56

when you when you describe it to

22:56

us like that we got is I'm sure

23:00

there'll be a lot of listeners

23:00

going, Oh, yeah, there'll be a

23:04

little aha moment going on.

23:04

Yeah, it's not about having to

23:07

create this false big moment is

23:07

actually it's already there in

23:12

the script. It's the editing of

23:12

the book and positioning or when

23:15

you as you describe it, that

23:15

cutaway of the narrative, and

23:19

just looking for the right point

23:19

to do that. That's brilliant.

23:22

And also, then you've got then

23:22

you do have moments of those big

23:27

cliffhangers. And also the

23:27

smaller ones as well. And so you

23:30

can vary, I guess the pace with

23:30

the difference in cliffhangers

23:34

as well.

23:36

Yeah, I

23:36

think so too. I think one thing

23:38

to be kind of careful with, if

23:38

you are just like, gonna throw

23:42

on Clifffingers, which I'm not

23:42

gonna say is always bad, because

23:45

sometimes you get like a great

23:45

idea for a cliffhanger. And then

23:47

you can work into the story, you

23:47

know, but what one thing to be

23:50

aware of is where a lot of times

23:50

they go wrong is when

23:53

cliffhangers writers are just

23:53

like throwing in the club

23:56

fingers to just try to get you

23:56

to keep reading. And like they

24:00

don't deliver on what's

24:00

promised. You know, so like, um,

24:04

you know, we could end a scene

24:04

will not end but we could have a

24:07

character come into his house

24:07

and his loved one is like lying

24:10

there bleeding, you know, we're

24:10

like, oh, no. And then you cut

24:13

away to create a cliffhanger.

24:13

And then when we come back, oh,

24:17

it's just catch up. She just has

24:17

ketchup all over her. You know,

24:20

it's kind of a letdown. And so

24:20

you want to make sure that I'm

24:24

most I would want to say always,

24:24

but there's always exceptions.

24:28

You want to deliver on whatever

24:28

you're saying your cliffhanger

24:31

is because if you're not

24:31

delivering on those promises,

24:35

and it's a letdown too many

24:35

times, then obvious is gonna

24:38

start having a problem with

24:38

that, you know, and you kind of

24:41

feel cheated, like, Oh, they

24:41

just threw that in there so that

24:44

I would keep reading you know,

24:44

and it feels more shallow. I'm

24:47

not gonna save that's always

24:47

wrong to do because in certain

24:52

genres, I feel like it can be

24:52

effective. Like I think we've

24:55

all seen. Well, I think I've

24:55

seen scary jumpy movies. You

25:00

know, where maybe there's like a

25:00

babysitter walking down a dark

25:03

Hall and there's like creepy

25:03

music, we're waiting for

25:07

something to pop out, you know.

25:07

And then, um, maybe like, we cut

25:12

away or something, and we come

25:12

back and like the phone rings,

25:15

and we're like, oh, you know,

25:15

that's it. And like, but

25:18

sometimes it works in situations

25:18

like that, because it sets the

25:21

tone and a place with the

25:21

audience expects, they don't

25:25

know, when it's gonna be

25:25

something terrible when it's

25:27

not, you know. And so you can

25:27

kind of do some of that, that's

25:31

where I would say you're kind of

25:31

breaking the rule intentionally

25:34

to kind of play around with the

25:34

audience and what they expect.

25:38

But even a lot of times in a

25:38

situation with that, you know,

25:41

say, okay, so I'll go back to

25:41

their example, we see, you know,

25:44

the protagonist goes and sees

25:44

his loved ones covered in blood

25:47

cuts away comes back, oh, let's

25:47

actually catch up, let's kind of

25:51

a letdown. But what happens is,

25:51

the audience kind of relaxes

25:54

right then. So what would be

25:54

good is then you can then bring

25:57

in something, you know, really

25:57

scary, oh, then a monster came

26:00

out and, you know, attack her.

26:00

Because we're not the audience

26:03

isn't expecting because they're

26:03

like, Oh, it was just catch up.

26:06

And then bam, you know, and then

26:06

they're like, Oh, so you can

26:10

play around with them in

26:10

different ways to kind of break

26:13

different roles and create those

26:13

effects. But generally speaking,

26:17

I think I'm paying attention to

26:17

those turning points do you have

26:21

in your scenes, or where

26:21

whatever level you're working

26:24

at, and cutting around those is

26:24

probably the safest best way to

26:27

go?

26:29

Oh, love it. No,

26:29

it's not going to change tack

26:33

slightly. Oh, and just to say, I

26:33

will, I'll link to that blog

26:36

post directly so that people

26:36

could go and kind of digest it,

26:40

as well, because there's a lot

26:40

in there. But I am going to

26:44

change tack a little bit. And

26:44

I'd love to just kind of learn a

26:46

little bit more about you know,

26:46

you, you what you do and your

26:50

editing work. And one of the

26:50

questions I get asked a lot is,

26:55

okay, what are the types of

26:55

editing? First of all, because

26:58

there's, we know that there's

26:58

quite a few different types. I

27:01

wonder if you could just walk us

27:01

through? I think it's three or

27:04

four different types, and then

27:04

the ones that you focus on?

27:08

Yeah, okay.

27:08

So yeah, there are different

27:10

types of editing, I will say,

27:10

just as a kind of heads up is, I

27:15

have found certain people

27:15

sometimes define them slightly

27:18

differently from each other. And

27:18

I feel like there's a lot of

27:20

things in the writing industry

27:20

like that, like, like, no, this

27:23

is called the inciting incident

27:23

notice, you know, so I'll go

27:26

through, you know, the way I

27:26

understand it, but it's worth

27:30

keeping in mind when you're

27:30

looking around that somebody

27:32

might have a slightly different

27:32

definition. And that doesn't

27:34

mean they're wrong or terrible.

27:34

But anyway, so um, there's

27:39

constant editing, as sometimes

27:39

called developmental editing.

27:43

And that's going to be more like

27:43

the big picture stuff. So like

27:46

character, you know, character

27:46

arcs, plot, theme, maybe world

27:51

building, all those big picture

27:51

things about like, what the

27:55

story actually is, that's how I

27:55

think of it like, What the What

27:58

is the story at what is the

27:58

actually, you know, what is it?

28:02

What's happening in it? What's

28:02

the content of it? How does it

28:05

play out, like big picture

28:05

things, and then below that,

28:09

you're gonna have a line

28:09

editing, and align editing is, I

28:14

think a bit more of the way the

28:14

story is being told. So like,

28:18

maybe, you know, sometimes

28:18

they'll be like, okay, I feel

28:21

like this chapter needs more

28:21

voice in it, or this pacing is

28:25

too fast, or, you know, these

28:25

descriptions are long or boring,

28:29

or I'm trying to think of, you

28:29

need a cliffhanger, maybe, you

28:35

know, so it's gonna be more

28:35

about like, how the author's

28:38

telling the story, and, you

28:38

know, help them with ideas of

28:42

how they can tell it better.

28:42

With books, we're going to be

28:45

talking, you know, we're going to be dealing with the way it's actually written on the page to,

28:47

you know, maybe you have too

28:50

much passive voice or whatever.

28:50

And so looking at the actual

28:54

writing and how to make that

28:54

better. Um, after that you have

28:59

copy editing. So this is going

28:59

to be this is often what people

29:02

think of when they think of

29:02

editing. This is where you're

29:04

going to look for things like

29:04

typos and punctuation and

29:08

grammatical errors, and things

29:08

like that, and tighten that

29:12

stuff up. Maybe sometimes

29:12

wordiness, sometimes put

29:16

wordiness more with line

29:16

editing. But anyway, and then

29:19

after that, you also have, I

29:19

guess you have proofreading.

29:24

Sometimes I see people kind of

29:24

put those together, but they're

29:27

slightly different. So proof

29:27

editing usually happens after

29:31

copy editing. And it's kind of

29:31

the last thing where we just,

29:34

you just go through the whole

29:34

manuscript, make sure, you know,

29:38

look, dry, check for typos,

29:38

again, all those types of little

29:42

things before it's ready to be

29:42

published or printed or

29:45

whatever. So those are the four

29:45

different types that I would

29:49

break down.

29:49

Mm hmm. And do you

29:49

do? Do you do all four of those

29:54

or do you focus on one more than

29:54

another?

29:56

Yeah, so I

29:56

mostly do content and line

29:59

editing. I can do um, I mean, I

29:59

can't do the other two, but I

30:05

can't do i do do copy editing

30:05

sometimes? Not as much. I just,

30:10

there's just a lot of little

30:10

little things to look at with

30:13

that, which is fine. But I'm

30:13

more interested in, you know,

30:16

let's get down. What is the

30:16

story? How do we make the story

30:19

itself better? And how do we

30:19

tell the story better and more

30:23

effectively, that's really where

30:23

I like to focus on the most. So

30:26

that's really what most of my

30:26

work ends up being. I

30:29

occasionally do copy editing, I

30:29

only take on so much at a time

30:33

of copy editing, just because

30:33

it's really I find it hard to be

30:37

focused on all the commas and

30:37

all the, you know, periods in

30:41

the right spot for so like that

30:41

hyper focus for so long, because

30:44

I'm trying to catch everything.

30:44

The other stuff is demanding in

30:48

its own way. But it's kind of

30:48

more, it's more interesting to

30:53

me. And I don't have to be like,

30:53

I guess so perfect. watching all

30:56

the little comments and thoughts

30:56

and everything. I like talking

31:00

about the story, I like helping

31:00

writers see how they can tell

31:03

the story more effectively, what

31:03

works, what doesn't. And I like

31:07

teaching those concepts to when

31:07

I work with them.

31:10

Yeah, that's one

31:10

thing I have learned about

31:13

working with an editor, which I

31:13

didn't expect at all, was how

31:17

much of a craft lesson it is. So

31:17

every time I send my book for an

31:21

edit, it comes back with the

31:21

teaching that you just

31:23

mentioned. And I learned so much

31:23

that I'm then able to carry on

31:27

into my next manuscript. And

31:27

then that gets edited. And I

31:30

learned more, and I hadn't,

31:30

hadn't kind of seen it from that

31:34

point of view until it happened.

31:34

And it's, it's invaluable is

31:37

absolutely invaluable. Because

31:37

so you know, if someone is

31:42

listening out there is going to

31:42

go with a traditional deal. If

31:47

they managed to get one, that's

31:47

great, you know, the, the

31:49

publisher is going to deal with

31:49

all of those different layers

31:51

of, of editing, for those that

31:51

ended up or choose to go down

31:57

the self publishing route. What

31:57

from your point of view? Do you

32:00

think? Because editing is an

32:00

investment? Undoubtedly,

32:04

especially when you're just

32:04

starting out? From your point of

32:07

view? What do you think is the

32:07

most important edit that an

32:11

indie author should prioritize?

32:11

Would it be the developmental

32:15

would it be the copy editing

32:15

lancing? What What do you feel

32:18

is the most important?

32:20

Oh, well, I

32:20

feel, um, I kind of depends

32:23

where the writers act, you know,

32:23

and their skills. I, to me, I

32:27

think content and line editing

32:27

contents, obviously, really

32:31

important, because if the story

32:31

isn't effective, then it doesn't

32:36

matter how it's written. But on

32:36

the other hand, if it's not

32:39

written very well, that nobody's

32:39

gonna care about the story. So

32:43

it's kind of, to me, it's kind

32:43

of a balancing act between those

32:46

two things. Um, if you were on,

32:46

I mean, say, because it can be

32:50

an investment, if you were on a

32:50

tight budget, I would say, you

32:56

probably want to get content and

32:56

development, edit editing, and

32:59

that, usually, when I do that,

32:59

it's cheaper than online

33:02

editing, right? Because or copy

33:02

editing, because in those I'm

33:04

going through each one and

33:04

checking each thing, whereas

33:07

concept developmental, I'm

33:07

looking at the big picture. So I

33:11

can look at the big picture and

33:11

tell you, you know, these are

33:14

the things you need to fix in

33:14

the story. If somebody is, you

33:17

know, tight, financially, I

33:17

guess, or they want to just get

33:21

the most out of their money or

33:21

decide prioritize, well, I might

33:25

would do sometimes they'll be

33:25

like, Hey, I'm gonna give you a

33:27

content edit. And then for a

33:27

line issues, as opposed to going

33:31

through each line, I will add

33:31

some sections in my critique

33:35

letter about overall issues

33:35

related to lines that you can

33:39

then apply through. So that I

33:39

don't have to comb through

33:42

everything. Another option I

33:42

would maybe say is, you know,

33:46

I'll do a content developmental

33:46

edit, and then maybe we can do a

33:49

section of line editing, so that

33:49

you can see what needs to be

33:53

improved. And you can apply that

33:53

through the rest. Okay, um,

33:57

ideally, you know, I would say,

33:57

get both content and light

34:01

editing and copy editing. And,

34:01

you know, but that can't I

34:04

understand that that can be

34:04

quite an investment. But I do

34:07

think content in line I think,

34:07

is pretty important. Most people

34:12

I work with don't have terrible

34:12

grammar and punctuation. And I

34:18

think, I mean, I'm not but you

34:18

guys, but like, if I see a

34:22

comment on the wrong spot, it's

34:22

not going to ruin the story for

34:25

me, you know? And so ideally, I

34:25

would say get all of them. But

34:28

if you have to prioritize, I

34:28

think content and line editing

34:32

is probably the place to go in

34:32

my opinion.

34:35

That's good advice

34:35

for everyone. And no, just in

34:39

terms of you and what you work

34:39

with, what you what you enjoy

34:43

working with. Are there any

34:43

particular stories and or genres

34:47

that you like working with? Or

34:47

are you happy to kind of try

34:50

everything and anything?

34:52

Yeah, so

34:52

most of my experiences with

34:55

fantasy and science fiction and

34:55

even thinking about that the

34:58

other day even more Fantasyland

34:58

stuff. fiction, but that's the

35:02

those are the genres that I

35:02

really love to work with. I've

35:05

done adult, why middle grade for

35:05

any of those I have worked

35:09

outside of those genres. I've

35:09

done just general fiction, and

35:13

I've done memoirs, and a few

35:13

other things. But mostly, that's

35:17

where most of my work is, is

35:17

science fiction and fantasy.

35:20

That's kind of where I guess my

35:20

expertise is, that's where I've

35:24

done a lot of that type of

35:24

stuff. And I'm really okay with

35:28

working for any kind of age, you

35:28

know, middle middle group, I

35:32

mean, I don't do picture books,

35:32

early young readers, so I

35:34

wouldn't be able to help people

35:34

with that. But middle grade

35:37

young adult, and adult I have

35:37

all worked in. And I'm really

35:41

people of all levels. I've

35:41

worked with people who have had

35:44

bestsellers, and I've worked

35:44

with people who are, you know,

35:47

brand new, or people who are

35:47

just getting into writing that

35:51

they just want some help with?

35:51

So all different levels I've

35:54

helped with? So in that regard,

35:54

I'm usually pretty open. Yeah.

36:00

Um, do you have any

36:00

advice for particularly new

36:02

writers? So say they've written

36:02

their first manuscript, and

36:07

they've done all their

36:07

revisions. But is there anything

36:10

kind of that they can do in

36:10

terms of of editing, or

36:14

revision, that you from

36:14

experience, you've seen sort of

36:17

common mistakes that people make

36:17

or common areas for improvement?

36:20

Shall we say that we can work on

36:20

ourselves before hiring an

36:24

editor so that when we do make

36:24

that investment, we're, we're

36:27

getting the best, the best that

36:27

we can out of that editor?

36:30

Yeah, so

36:30

one of the common problems I see

36:33

that I feel like actually

36:33

doesn't get talked about very

36:35

much, very much, excuse me,

36:35

which is why I'm gonna bring it

36:38

up. And it's a best way I

36:38

explain it is, a lot of writers

36:45

tend to want to look backward

36:45

and their story, meaning they

36:48

want to look at what happened to

36:48

the character previously, what

36:52

happened before the story

36:52

started, they want to look at

36:54

the backstory, how we got to

36:54

this point, and those things all

36:58

have a place. But a lot of times

36:58

writers and I think part of this

37:01

is from like, maybe the writer

37:01

hasn't yet completely figured

37:04

out what the story was when they

37:04

started writing it. And so it's

37:07

helpful for the writer to look

37:07

at, okay, where was this

37:10

character before? How did we get

37:10

here, or what happened before,

37:13

this isn't going to be so

37:13

interesting. And what happens is

37:17

like, when I sit down the

37:17

manuscript, like, I feel like

37:20

we're kind of living in the past

37:20

a little bit, sometimes writers

37:24

will start like in the present, and then they'll go into the past for a while, which isn't

37:26

always wrong. But it starts to

37:30

kind of feel like the writers

37:30

focusing more on the past. And I

37:33

think of it as like, they're

37:33

looking backward to how what

37:36

happened before the story

37:36

started, or what happened

37:38

previously, the audience

37:38

actually wants to look forward,

37:43

present or forward, right? We

37:43

don't usually want the story to

37:45

mostly be in the present, you

37:45

can always break rules. And then

37:49

they want to anticipate what's

37:49

going to happen, because that's

37:51

what's gonna make them want to

37:51

keep reading, they want to see

37:54

Oh, what's the outcome? What's

37:54

this going to be? What's this

37:56

going to be? And so um, my

37:56

friends has a lot of new

37:59

writers, they tend to look at,

37:59

well, how did we get here? How

38:02

did this character become this

38:02

way? The audience likes more of

38:05

this is where we are now, here's

38:05

some things that here are some

38:08

stakes on the line and what

38:08

could possibly happen. And the

38:11

thing is about the future is

38:11

the, you know, we don't know

38:15

what could happen hasn't

38:15

happened yet. And so it's more

38:18

interesting, and it draws the

38:18

audience in, because it's like,

38:21

Okay, I'm trying to think of an

38:21

example, if she gets invited to

38:25

this party, you know, she can

38:25

meet this guy she has a crush

38:28

on, or if she doesn't, then it's

38:28

going to create another issue.

38:33

I'm just throwing an example.

38:33

And so when you have something

38:36

that has like, okay, yep, this

38:36

one element that has two

38:39

different outcomes for the

38:39

future, we're certainly more

38:43

interested in seeing what

38:43

happens in the present, because

38:46

we want to see what ends up

38:46

happening. And so it gets the

38:49

audience to anticipate the rest

38:49

of the story. So they'll want to

38:54

keep rooting and they'll want to

38:54

know what happens. And once they

38:56

start caring about that more,

38:56

they're going to be a little

38:59

more interested in what happened

38:59

before, if that makes sense.

39:04

Okay, so yeah, that's one of the

39:04

things that I would say probably

39:07

easier said than done but

39:11

front loading, you

39:11

know, sometimes I've heard that

39:13

phrase use that, like in the

39:13

beginning of a story. The waiter

39:18

piles, everything, the whole

39:18

history of the character, and

39:21

everything that led them up to

39:21

this point, and then move on. Is

39:24

that was that what you're talking about? Or is it something different?

39:27

Well,

39:27

sorry, repeat clarify what you

39:30

mean.

39:30

So I've heard this

39:30

term front loading when you

39:33

Front Load the story with

39:33

everything that's happened to

39:37

the character up until the point

39:37

that we start the actual book,

39:41

or you know, and so we get their

39:41

characters whole back history,

39:44

their family, their schooling,

39:44

everything. And in that first

39:49

chapter or two, before we start

39:49

the story, is that the same

39:53

thing that you're you're talking

39:53

about now, or is it two

39:56

different things?

39:57

Yeah, well,

39:57

kind of depends how how it's

40:00

done. Um, I guess ideas, you

40:00

don't want to spend too much

40:05

time just talking about like the

40:05

past and the backwards, you want

40:09

to be anticipating what could

40:09

happen when you're writing it,

40:13

it's okay if you as a writer

40:13

know that. But if you're putting

40:16

in like a huge encyclopedia

40:16

entry about, you know, this

40:19

character, how they were born,

40:19

and then grew up and all this

40:23

stuff before the story actually

40:23

starts, it's usually very hard

40:26

to pull that off and be

40:26

interesting. It's not

40:28

impossible. So you know, cuz I

40:28

know people are gonna be like,

40:31

Well, someone, so did this, and

40:31

it worked. Like, yeah, it works.

40:35

But a lot of times, it's

40:35

difficult to pull that off. It's

40:38

more interesting. Usually, if

40:38

you start in the present. And

40:42

then when, like, if you've heard

40:42

the term stakes, I think of

40:46

stakes as like, potential

40:46

outcomes, you know, if this

40:49

happens, then this happens. So

40:49

if you can put something like

40:52

that in it, that's a little more

40:52

interesting. And then you can

40:56

kind of weave in some of the

40:56

background stuff as you move

40:59

forward in the story. That kind

40:59

of make sense. Yeah, yeah. So I

41:03

mean, I wouldn't say I wouldn't

41:03

say it's always wrong to start

41:06

the other way. But it's very

41:06

difficult to pull off,

41:09

especially if you're a newer

41:09

writer. And it's usually more

41:12

interesting if you get the other way.

41:14

Yeah. Yeah. Gosh,

41:14

you've given us so much today.

41:19

And I stole the stuff about

41:19

cliffhangers. And then you know,

41:23

about the, the sort of those

41:23

common mistakes that you've seen

41:27

those problem areas, you've

41:27

given us a lot of to think about

41:30

and a lot to kind of work on for

41:30

our own manuscripts. And thank

41:33

you very much. If any of our

41:33

listeners are kind of interested

41:37

in finding out a bit more about

41:37

how they can work with you,

41:40

what's the best way of doing that?

41:43

Yeah, so

41:43

um, you can find me if you're

41:46

interested in editing services,

41:46

you can go to Fawkesediting.com,

41:49

it's kind of just where I have

41:49

all my editing services, info,

41:53

my blog articles and everything

41:53

is just Septembercfawkes.com But

41:58

if you can't remember, like, if

41:58

you can't remember my name, for

42:00

some reason, you can also get to

42:00

it by going to write better with

42:04

an editor.com, and that's gonna

42:04

pull up all my blog articles or

42:08

some other references and things

42:08

you can look at on there. Other

42:11

than that, I'm on most social

42:11

media platforms, Facebook,

42:14

Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr. I

42:14

don't know that all of them. But

42:19

anyway, so you can also find me there.

42:21

But yeah, in

42:21

September, it's been so lovely

42:24

speaking to you and finding out,

42:24

you know all about what you do.

42:28

Thank you very much for your time.

42:30

Thank you for having me.

42:34

Well, thank you so

42:34

much for joining me today. I

42:37

hope you find that helpful and

42:37

inspirational. Now, don't forget

42:42

to come on over to facebook and

42:42

join my group, turning readers

42:46

into writers. It is especially

42:46

for you if you are a beginner

42:50

writer who is looking to write

42:50

their first novel. If you join

42:54

the group, you will also find a

42:54

free cheat sheet there called

42:58

three secret hacks to write with

42:58

consistency. So go to

43:02

Emmadhesi.com/turning eaters

43:02

into writers. Hit join. Can't

43:08

wait to see you in there. All

43:08

right. Thank you. Bye bye.