0:00

Hello, I'm Emma

0:00

Dhesi and welcome to another

0:03

episode of turning readers into

0:03

writers. If you're brand new

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here, welcome. And here's what

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you need to know. This is a

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community that believes you are

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never too old to write your

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first novel, no matter what

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you've been up to until now, if

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you're ready to write your book,

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I'm ready to help you reach the

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end, I focused on helping you

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find the time and confidence to

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begin your writing journey, as

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well as the craft and skills you

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need to finish the book. Each

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week I interview debut authors,

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editors and industry experts to

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keep you motivated, inspired,

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and educated on all things

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writing, editing, and

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publishing. If you want to catch

0:39

up, head on over to

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emmadhesi.com, where you'll find

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a wealth of information and

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tools to help you get started.

0:47

Before we dive in, this week's

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episode is brought to you by my

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free cheat sheet 30 Top Tips to

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find time to write. In this

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guide, I give you 30 ways that

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emmadhesi.com/30TopTips. Okay,

1:43

let's dive in to today's

1:47

episode. Cat Lumb has been

1:47

writing stories for over a

1:51

decade since she was diagnosed

1:51

with two chronic conditions and

1:55

forced her to rest more meaning

1:55

her imagination was her only

1:59

escape. Her first love is novels

1:59

and she has eight manuscripts in

2:03

various stages of completeness,

2:03

but also enjoys the ease of

2:07

short stories for a quick

2:07

fiction fix. Her stories have

2:11

been published in women's weekly

2:11

writing magazine and karma press

2:15

new Manchester writers

2:15

collection. Her DB short story

2:19

collection the memorial tree

2:19

keybinds in the Kindle store in

2:22

July 2018. Her fiction explores

2:22

themes such as sentiment,

2:28

perspective and reflection,

2:28

often with a surprising turn.

2:32

Her debut novel a spy thriller

2:32

called in lies we trust, was

2:36

published in March 2021. In

2:36

August 2020, she left her job as

2:41

museum educator at the

2:41

Manchester museum to follow her

2:45

dream life as a writer, and now

2:45

as the right catalyst. She is a

2:50

writing coach for aspiring

2:50

authors who dream of writing a

2:53

novel. She is keen to support

2:53

writers develop their confidence

2:56

and self belief and is an avid

2:56

believer that we all have a

3:00

novel inside of us waiting to be

3:00

written. She's on the steering

3:04

committee of the Huddersfield

3:04

literature festival, but lives

3:07

over the hill on the wrong side

3:07

of the Pennines in Staley

3:10

bridge, where she enjoys walking

3:10

with her dog, Hugo the

3:14

destroyer. So let's get chatting

3:14

to cats and find out a little

3:17

bit more about her journey to

3:17

writing and how she helps new

3:21

writers write that book that's

3:21

deep inside of them. Well,

3:25

welcome, Cat, thank you so much

3:25

for being here with me today.

3:29

Oh, thank you very

3:29

much. It's a it's lovely to be

3:31

here.

3:32

Now, I wonder if we

3:32

can start with you just telling

3:35

us a little bit about yourself

3:35

in your journey to writing and

3:38

where you are now.

3:40

Yeah, so it's a

3:40

typical story of childhood love

3:44

of writing and reading. And I

3:44

was always the kid that went to

3:47

parties and then hit on this

3:47

table with a book rather than

3:51

partying. And But it wasn't

3:51

until I was in my late 20s that

3:57

I really picked up fiction

3:57

writing again. And basically, it

4:01

was because of ultimately I

4:01

became quite ill. And I became

4:05

housebound, actually with a an

4:05

Lchronic illness called M.E or

4:09

also known as chronic fatigue

4:09

syndrome. And then later in

4:13

2011, I was also diagnosed with

4:13

fibromyalgia, which is a chronic

4:16

pain syndrome. So, because of

4:16

this, obviously, as I said, my

4:22

energy was limited. I was often

4:22

in a lot of fatigue and pain.

4:27

And it meant that I couldn't

4:27

work for a few months. So I

4:30

basically couldn't do anything

4:30

other than sit on the sofa, and

4:33

rest. And the only really

4:33

company that I had to get me

4:37

through was either terrible

4:37

daytime TV or my imagination.

4:42

Unfortunately, I have a very

4:42

vivid imagination. So I started

4:47

writing again as a kind of means

4:47

to help me heal, I guess. And it

4:51

was journaling. I started

4:51

blogging again. And I started

4:55

writing short form fiction. I

4:55

made an attempt at a novel which

4:59

took me six years to even finish

4:59

the birth one. And I think it's

5:05

probably developed from there,

5:05

all of it has come from the fact

5:08

that had I not become ill with

5:08

this, these two disabilities, I

5:12

may never have got my dream of

5:12

writing a novel and publishing

5:15

it. So it's a really interesting

5:15

turn around. And last year,

5:20

during the pandemic, I left my

5:20

job as a medium educator. So I

5:24

was working part time teaching

5:24

kids how to use collections, to

5:29

you know, that history and

5:29

things like that. But in the

5:33

pandemic, working from home, my

5:33

health just got so much better.

5:37

And so what I ended up doing is

5:37

making the big leap, and leaving

5:42

that job, and becoming my own

5:42

boss, and really committing to

5:47

my writing dreams and my dream

5:47

of actually helping other

5:50

writers do the same thing. So I

5:50

left my job in August 2020, I

5:55

finally built the dream plotting

5:55

shed that I've been dreaming off

6:00

for three years. So the shed

6:00

that I'm talking to you now from

6:04

is in my garden is a little

6:04

shed, it's got a blackboard

6:07

wall, where I can plot out my

6:07

novels. And I just absolutely

6:11

love coming to work every day.

6:11

And my health is so much better,

6:15

that I now I can modify care. So

6:15

it was definitely the right

6:19

choice.

6:19

Gosh, absolutely. It

6:19

is amazing how life takes these

6:24

meandering tones. And we don't

6:24

always know how we're going to

6:28

achieve our dream or what

6:28

obstacles we're going to come

6:31

across. I'm sure you can never

6:31

afford that. You know, a chronic

6:35

illness might be the catalyst,

6:35

pardon the pun, to to get you to

6:41

where you wanted to be, not just

6:41

with your potting shed, but also

6:45

to get that book out in the

6:45

world. And that's, I love that

6:48

you mentioned your potting shed,

6:48

because I've obviously I've been

6:50

following you for a bit so I I

6:50

recognize the wallpaper and

6:54

things in your shopping shed. I

6:54

didn't realize it was going to

6:57

share that you had the special,

6:57

she shared plotting shed there

7:01

was your creative space. So it's

7:01

lovely.

7:04

Yeah, I mean, I

7:04

sometimes joke that actually

7:06

what I've probably built is

7:06

quite a large dog house because

7:09

my dog who got the destroyer,

7:09

absolutely adores, sitting in

7:15

the corner, looking out the

7:15

window watching the squirrels in

7:17

the back garden. And he gets

7:17

more excited on a Monday morning

7:21

to come to the shed than I did.

7:25

Sounds perfect. So

7:25

you mentioned there that you you

7:30

started off doing short form

7:30

fiction. And that's actually a

7:33

challenge that I've given myself

7:33

this year, I've got the

7:35

challenge of writing 52 short

7:35

stories this year. And I don't

7:39

mind telling you I'm finding it.

7:39

I find it a challenge to come up

7:44

with the ideas for short

7:44

stories. Where do you get your

7:48

ideas from work for a short form

7:48

rather than the long form

7:52

novels?

7:53

Oh I have to admit

7:53

that I have a very vivid

7:56

imagination, as I've said, and I

7:56

find the problem is stopping the

8:00

ideas. everywhere I've been to

8:00

look, I always ask the question,

8:05

What if. And, in fact, it's one

8:05

of my key tips for new writers,

8:10

if you ever get stuck in a

8:10

story, just do like a little

8:13

decision tree of what if this

8:13

happened, what if this happened,

8:16

what if this happened, and then

8:16

choose whichever one would make

8:20

more sense for you. But

8:20

generally, they just pop into my

8:24

mind when I'm sort of peak. I

8:24

love people watching. And it's a

8:27

bit difficult within the times

8:27

of pandemic, but I used to sit

8:30

in a cafe and just watch people

8:30

go past. And in fact, I was out

8:34

on a walk at the weekend with a

8:34

couple of my friends. And there

8:38

was an elderly man walking past

8:38

holding a small child. And he

8:43

was kind of walking really

8:43

quickly and looking over his

8:45

shoulder at the same time. And

8:45

immediately I was thinking, Oh,

8:48

what happens if that child's not

8:48

his. And that just suddenly

8:53

starts me on that story. And so

8:53

I guess I have a quite a dark

8:59

mind, there is a general just to

8:59

my certainly short form and

9:04

sometimes long form stories that

9:04

I have to kill somebody. So

9:10

generally speaking, in my short

9:10

stories, somebody has died or

9:13

somebody will die. And but

9:13

that's because one of the things

9:17

that I write about are things

9:17

like loss and grief, and how

9:21

that impacts us on the memories

9:21

of people. So I would say that

9:26

if you're struggling to find

9:26

ideas for your short stories, or

9:28

if any of your listeners are I

9:28

tend to go to newspapers, look

9:34

at headlines and decide what the

9:34

story is from the headline. And

9:38

use the water method and just

9:38

continuously. One of the reasons

9:42

I like the what if tree is you

9:42

can plot out a story really

9:45

quickly and see the options and

9:45

without having to sit at your

9:49

desk for hours and write the

9:49

story. So yeah, that's that be

9:54

my two best tips for you.

9:54

headlines are really good ones

9:57

that are kind of what's the

9:57

story here. Perfect. Have you

10:00

even read the story? Especially

10:00

with some of the clickbait that

10:02

goes on now? So?

10:04

Yes, well, good

10:04

tips. Thank you, I think I will

10:07

be having a look at Yeah, the

10:07

headline, one in particular,

10:10

kind of resonates with me. So

10:10

I'll be trying that. Thank you.

10:13

And now I saw from your bio as

10:13

well that not only do you have

10:18

lots of good ideas, but you've

10:18

been very successful with them,

10:21

and you've submitted them to

10:21

different publications, and had

10:24

good success. I wondered if you

10:24

had a kind of methodology for

10:30

that, or how you were how you

10:30

decide which stories you're

10:33

going to submit to which

10:33

publications and or was it just

10:37

good luck?

10:39

I think it's a little

10:39

bit of luck, I generally look

10:43

for themes that I know that I

10:43

write about already. So again,

10:46

like memory loss, and nostalgia,

10:46

we like the idea of characters

10:50

that lie or that don't tell the

10:50

whole truth. So I generally look

10:54

for competitions that sit within

10:54

those themes. And then what I

10:58

try and do is, I do my wife

10:58

tree, for a lot of them. I

11:03

always like a good prompt. So if

11:03

something says it's an open

11:06

start with category, you can

11:06

write whatever you want, that's

11:09

when I usually get stumped,

11:09

because they've got too many

11:11

ideas. And so I One of my

11:11

favorites is for competitions is

11:18

always the last line

11:18

competition, love a good last

11:20

line. And really good theme. So

11:20

I've been really successful with

11:26

things like having stories

11:26

published in women's weekly. And

11:29

again, that was grief and loss,

11:29

with a slightly off turn,

11:34

obviously, at the end, and

11:34

mighty magazine competitions and

11:38

things like that, where they do

11:38

have the last line or the theme.

11:41

So I think if if your listeners

11:41

are looking for short story

11:46

successes, it's really good for

11:46

them to look in places things

11:50

like writing magazine

11:50

competitions, of themes, theme

11:55

stories that they know that they

11:55

can write about. And sometimes I

11:59

know it's quite difficult as a

11:59

writer to figure out what your

12:02

themes are. But if you've

12:02

started writing stories, or

12:05

you've got a lot of short

12:05

stories, and you don't know what

12:08

to do with them, just read, have

12:08

a read through them, and see if

12:12

you can pull out some of those

12:12

themes, what you consistently

12:15

write about your characters, all

12:15

women in their 40s that are

12:18

struggling with relationships.

12:18

And I think by doing that, it

12:23

means that you're more targeted

12:23

as to where you're submitting

12:26

your work. I tend really tend to

12:26

look for anthologies and things

12:31

like that. And one of my best

12:31

resources happens to be the

12:36

small press guide by Miss lexia.

12:36

Magazine. They've got a little

12:40

sort of guide where it basically

12:40

tells you all the small presses

12:44

and the apologists are looking

12:44

for short stories, memoir

12:48

pieces, essays and things like

12:48

that. So it's a really good

12:51

resource for the writers to have.

12:54

Yes, I know that one

12:54

is is very good they do that.

12:58

Debbie, there isn't she does a

12:58

great job. Yeah. I know, you've

13:03

mentioned it a few times that

13:03

your the themes that interest

13:07

you are about loss and grief and

13:07

things or would you be willing

13:10

to kind of share with us why

13:10

those those things interest you

13:14

so much?

13:15

You know, it took me a

13:15

long time to figure out why. I

13:19

mean, one of my most memorable

13:19

childhood moments, is one of

13:26

those that six I think was about

13:26

six or seven. And actually one

13:30

of my school friends died. And I

13:30

have a very lingering memory of

13:34

my mom answering the phone at

13:34

the bottom of the stairs just

13:37

before school. And she just

13:37

crumpled at the bottom of the

13:41

stairs into sobs. And that that

13:41

was when we found out and I

13:46

think that's kind of something I

13:46

carry with me. I've been very

13:49

fortunate not to have suffered

13:49

too much grief throughout my

13:53

life from that, obviously, loss

13:53

of grandparents, loss of dogs,

13:58

which is one of the other grief

13:58

that I go through. But I just

14:02

find it fascinating the way that

14:02

people deal with it in different

14:06

ways. And also the lingering

14:06

effects that it has that you

14:11

know, years later, that

14:11

childhood memory is obviously

14:15

leaked its way into my writing,

14:15

without me even knowing that

14:19

first. So yeah, and it's got

14:19

something to do with that, that

14:24

perception of things and how

14:24

people perceive grief. And what

14:28

people think grief is and so

14:28

often it does look like you

14:32

know, hiding and crying and, you

14:32

know, missing people, but it can

14:37

also be being in a supermarket

14:37

by yourself and not knowing

14:41

which brand of washing powder to

14:41

buy because you never bought it.

14:45

So it's it's one of those really

14:45

interesting concepts to me and I

14:49

think that's what you're kind of

14:49

like to explore in my stories.

14:53

Yeah, and I wonder I

14:53

am one of those women whose

14:57

theme does tend to be women in

14:57

their 40s Who are kind of, you

15:01

know, looking at relationships,

15:01

whether it be with a partner or

15:06

a friend or or children often as

15:06

well? Um, do you find that that

15:11

the way that? So though the

15:11

theme generally is sort of

15:16

around grief and loss, have you

15:16

noticed over the years that

15:18

maybe the emphasis has changed?

15:18

Do you find? Or are you still

15:22

still exploring this one and

15:22

haven't yet evolved...

15:25

I think the emphasis

15:25

does change, because I think the

15:29

stories that I write can either

15:29

be quite dark, and I do quite

15:33

like a twist at the end that

15:33

last line of, you know,

15:36

surprise, but I think it's also

15:36

come from the optimistic

15:41

nostalgia of really good

15:41

memories as well. So it kind of

15:44

has a different strand, for

15:44

different stories and for

15:48

different approaches. And

15:48

obviously, with my debut novel,

15:54

it was a slightly different

15:54

genre than I usually writing.

15:57

But again, even the, in that

15:57

nobody dies until the end, I'll

16:03

give that away. And there is

16:03

still elements of grief and loss

16:08

through it and how people

16:08

respond to it. So even if it's

16:11

not a central theme, it's still

16:11

somehow bubbles, its way up to

16:15

sort of lesser themes and less

16:15

funds.

16:18

I was talking to a

16:18

writing teacher recently, and

16:22

she says that she's been writing

16:22

the same thing, essentially, for

16:24

the last 14 years. So I'm always

16:24

interested to note whether I'll

16:28

be the same or whether whether

16:28

I'll change. And now you

16:32

mentioned your novel, and that

16:32

you've moved on to longer form

16:36

fiction and then just First of

16:36

all, because your first your

16:40

debut novel was published just

16:40

in March of 2021. So not long

16:44

ago. So big congratulations on that.

16:46

Thank you

16:46

that a lovely

16:46

milestone. And so you've moved

16:49

on to longer form fiction. And I

16:49

was wondering what your process

16:55

for writing this was, was

16:55

similar to doing short stories?

16:59

Do you plot it in the same way

16:59

that you do your short stories?

17:01

Or was this more of a discovery?

17:01

exploration? Talk us through it?

17:07

So as I said, the

17:07

short stories, I generally pick

17:11

a theme, and general How about

17:11

one question to answer that one

17:14

water. And for my long form

17:14

fiction, genuinely my process is

17:19

to is to do a bit of plotting.

17:19

So I have to know what the

17:22

inciting incident is, what sets

17:22

us off on this story. And I

17:27

always like to have an ending in

17:27

mind. So that allows me to

17:31

think, right, where am I

17:31

heading, what has got to happen

17:34

between the inciting incident

17:34

and the ending that I want to

17:38

make that happen? So I generally

17:38

do do a little bit of plotting.

17:43

But I often find that with all

17:43

the plotting in the world,

17:47

somehow, I end up on a discovery

17:47

journey as well. So I tend to do

17:53

NaNoWriMo, National Novel

17:53

Writing Month, every single

17:56

year. So in November, usually

17:56

what happens is that I've got an

18:01

idea for a novel sort of a big

18:01

concept, or what if, and I just

18:06

start writing. And in that month

18:06

of november 50,000 words in 30

18:10

days, it doesn't give me any

18:10

chance to question whether or

18:14

not it's going to work. It's

18:14

just, I just need to go from one

18:17

scene to the next and one

18:17

happening and one plot point to

18:21

the next, and see what happens

18:21

and explore my characters. And

18:26

then from that, it gives me a

18:26

good idea to whether or not the

18:29

idea is a novel worthy idea, I

18:29

guess. And then I usually

18:34

rewrite it. Because let's face

18:34

it, the National Novel Writing

18:39

Month is great for getting the

18:39

words on the page, but they're

18:42

not necessarily the right words,

18:42

or the end words. And it just

18:46

gives me a really good idea of

18:46

what the plot is going to be,

18:49

and how my character is going to

18:49

change throughout that story. So

18:53

then, generally, I rewrite it.

18:53

And, you know, the novel can go

18:57

through a number of rewrites. So

18:57

like I said, for my first novel,

19:01

which is still in a drawer

19:01

somewhere, it took me six years

19:04

and about eight different

19:04

rewrites. And I've just got to

19:07

the stage now, sort of 10 years

19:07

into my writing process where I

19:12

don't have to rewrite it 700

19:12

times, I can rewrite it once and

19:16

then just edit it. I figured

19:16

that out now.

19:21

It's nice to know

19:21

that that time has been well

19:25

spent. So now you know, you've

19:25

got a process that works for

19:28

you. And although it's never

19:28

easy writing, particularly a

19:32

first draft, at least you you

19:32

know, have some experience that

19:37

tells your brain you can do

19:37

this. Don't give up Yes, this

19:40

bit in the middle might be a bit

19:40

tough, but you've got foreign

19:44

here, you know, you can do it.

19:44

And I think that's where a lot

19:47

of confidence can come from.

19:47

It's just knowing that you've

19:50

struggled through it in the past

19:50

and you did it. So now you're

19:53

again,

19:54

I definitely agree

19:54

with that is that the more more

19:58

you practice them more you

19:58

realize that the hard writing

20:02

there's a just as valuable as

20:02

the writing, there's that flow.

20:08

And I'm very much of I actually

20:08

don't believe in writer's block.

20:12

So much like the idea that you

20:12

sit, you can't sit down and

20:15

write something, I actually

20:15

believe that's just a mental

20:19

block. That's just you telling

20:19

yourself that you can't do it,

20:22

when actually, you can. It might

20:22

just be that you don't know

20:25

where you're going, or you're,

20:25

you know, you're fatigued, or

20:28

your energy levels are low. So

20:28

there are a lot of different

20:31

things going on there. And

20:31

certainly with the people that I

20:35

work with, that's one of the

20:35

obstacles that we overcome

20:38

together, where we identify what

20:38

is the block that's happening

20:41

here, because it's not about you

20:41

can't get words onto a page.

20:45

Because you can put any words on

20:45

a page, it's fine. But it's

20:49

about how you approach that

20:49

writing. And I think the

20:52

confidence that you come to your

20:52

writing, this is so important,

20:58

because that can make the difference between a good writing day and a bad writing

21:00

day.

21:02

Yeah, absolutely.

21:02

Absolutely. Just before we move

21:06

on to talk about how you work

21:06

with writers, I was interested

21:09

when you mentioned earlier on,

21:09

so your debut is cold, and in

21:14

lies we trust, and it's a spy

21:14

thriller. But you've said that

21:18

that's not your usual genre. So

21:18

I wondered, oh, what made you

21:22

decide to write this one and

21:22

then for this to be your to be

21:26

your debut?

21:28

So yes, the my usual

21:28

genre, the genre I'm most

21:31

comfortable at is women's

21:31

commercial fiction, that sort of

21:34

reading group fiction. But the

21:34

spy thriller actually came from

21:38

a challenge for my writing group

21:38

A number of years ago. So I

21:41

think it was in 2015, or 2016.

21:41

So the National Novel Writing

21:45

Month, then the I think,

21:45

sometime the beginning of

21:49

October, my writing group, put

21:49

an exercise forward that says

21:53

write something that is not your

21:53

typical genre, something that

21:57

you would never ordinarily

21:57

write. And I thought, right,

22:01

okay, women's group fiction,

22:01

what's furthest away from that

22:05

spy thriller. So try writing a

22:05

spy thriller. So I wrote this

22:08

little excerpts about a woman

22:08

being kidnapped, really taken to

22:16

the warehouse, and she was

22:16

reporting into her superior

22:20

officer because she used to be a

22:20

spy. But then her superior

22:24

officer, and another person gets

22:24

shot by a man wearing nothing

22:29

but a trench coat. And then

22:29

that's why the exit stopped. Cuz

22:34

that's, as far as I got on my

22:34

writing group, like, you can't

22:38

leave it there. We want to know

22:38

what happens next. Why is he

22:41

only wearing a trench coat? So I

22:41

thought, okay, and I had a few

22:45

more ideas about what was

22:45

happening. So I sat down, and I

22:48

wrote it in that November. And

22:48

actually, the story that came

22:53

out is pretty much the story

22:53

that's in the book now. But at

22:57

no point did I plot this novel,

22:57

I literally was complete

23:01

discovery. So as you read it,

23:01

and you're kind of figuring out

23:05

well, do we trust that person?

23:05

What's going to happen to that?

23:08

Where's that going to go? Those

23:08

are all exactly the questions

23:11

that I were asking myself as I

23:11

wrote it. Unfortunately, it

23:15

just, it must have been

23:15

something in me because it just

23:18

came out. And it was so much fun

23:18

to write. And reading back over

23:23

it. When I left my job last

23:23

year, I was like, this is a fun

23:27

adventure novel. This is

23:27

something that actually people

23:30

could really enjoy. And the fact

23:30

that it's not my usual drawn

23:34

genre doesn't mean that it

23:34

should sit in a drawer and never

23:37

see the light of day because it

23:37

kind of deserves to see that

23:40

light up there and get those

23:40

readers. So it's like, right,

23:43

okay, well, it's it's complete,

23:43

I've just got to do a bit of

23:47

tidying up so and then I can

23:47

release it. So that's what I

23:51

did. And I am absolutely

23:51

delighted that in the first week

23:55

of its release, it actually got

23:55

to number 16, in the best

23:59

sellers for spy thrillers on

23:59

Amazon, which completely

24:03

flummoxed me because this was,

24:03

you know, the fun project or

24:06

something that was a bit

24:06

different. And, and I've had

24:10

amazing reviews, my favorite

24:10

being the one person who said

24:15

that they started reading it one

24:15

night, couldn't put it down and

24:18

had to pull a sticky at work the

24:18

next day, just so they could

24:21

finish it, which is a writer,

24:21

it's like that is the perfect

24:25

review. So it was one of those

24:25

ones where it was a challenge.

24:29

And it was something different.

24:29

And I think, as writers we

24:33

shouldn't shy away from that we,

24:33

you know, if you do get a bit of

24:36

writer's block, try something

24:36

completely different, you might

24:39

find actually, that's kind of

24:39

one of the places where you

24:42

shine. And that novel taught me

24:42

so much about piercing about,

24:46

you know, putting hooks in

24:46

chapters and things like that.

24:49

So I'm actually really proud of

24:49

it. So I'm glad that I was my

24:52

debut novel in some ways, but

24:52

you probably notice I published

24:56

it under my real name as my dad

24:56

would say, which is Katherine

25:00

And that's because I intend to

25:00

publish sort of commercial

25:04

women's fiction under catalogue.

25:04

So they do have a bit of a

25:06

separation. So if in future

25:06

you're looking for, you know,

25:10

women's fiction, and you come

25:10

across in lies waitressed, I

25:14

want you to make sure that you

25:14

know, it's not the traditional

25:17

stuff. So don't want the

25:17

disappointed reading a spy

25:20

thriller when it's like, this

25:20

isn't the the nice women's

25:23

fiction. Although Having said

25:23

that, the main character, Liz is

25:27

one of my favorite women, she's

25:27

strong. She's fun. She knows

25:30

what she wants. So she's a great

25:30

protagonist.

25:33

Yeah, I just wanted

25:33

to kind of go back a little bit.

25:37

And she when you mentioned that,

25:37

you know, if the audience is

25:41

thinking, Oh, where's this gonna

25:41

go wisest man in a trench coat.

25:45

And you were thinking that, and

25:45

you were going along for the

25:48

journey, I just wanted to kind

25:48

of comment on how, or observe

25:52

just how you trusted your

25:52

process, you didn't know what

25:56

was going to come up, you

25:56

weren't in control of it all.

25:58

But you trusted yourself and the

25:58

music, you like to kind of just

26:02

go with it and see where it had,

26:02

where it went. And here we go,

26:05

we've got a finished product

26:05

that you're kind of really happy

26:08

with. Because I think sometimes

26:08

a lot of new writers feel that

26:12

they've got to know every detail

26:12

before they can start writing.

26:15

But often, the details are

26:15

already in our brain, we've just

26:19

got to trust ourselves to let

26:19

them out. And and your story

26:22

there, I think is a great

26:22

example of that. That would you

26:25

can just... yeah.

26:27

Yeah, sometimes I think you just have to give yourself over to the star, I

26:29

certainly have novels, I never

26:33

used to believe that characters

26:33

took over, you know, I was like,

26:38

you know, as a writer, you

26:38

should be my partner thinks

26:41

this, as a writer, you should be

26:41

in control of your characters,

26:43

they should really do what you

26:43

tell them to. And that is not

26:46

how it works. In the first novel

26:46

that I ever wrote, I had the

26:49

doctor's wife who was supposed

26:49

to be a background character,

26:52

you never saw her. And yet,

26:52

somehow she ended up in loads of

26:55

scenes. And I just couldn't stop

26:55

her from coming into these

26:59

scenes. So in the end, she

26:59

actually became an integral part

27:02

of the story. And that's what

27:02

she was trying, it was my brain

27:05

knocking on my door saying, she

27:05

needs to be in the story, you

27:08

have to let her into the story.

27:08

So I think if, as writers you do

27:13

have to learn to trust

27:13

sometimes, and you do have to

27:16

believe that where your

27:16

imagination is taking you is the

27:20

place that needs to go for this

27:20

story to be told.

27:25

Now, you've

27:25

mentioned obviously, already,

27:28

but just to kind of I'd love to

27:28

delve into a little bit more

27:31

that not only do you write your

27:31

own stories, but you help other

27:34

people write their stories, too.

27:34

And I wonder if you could tell

27:37

us about the right catalyst?

27:40

Yes, so I am the right

27:40

catalyst, helping writers get

27:45

that novel their dream have

27:45

written and done. And it was

27:49

something that I never thought I

27:49

would do as a writing coach. You

27:53

know, for me, I was a museum

27:53

educator. But the more and more

27:57

that I got involved and realized

27:57

my own writing process that we

28:01

have, the more I realize that I

28:01

actually have a lot of knowledge

28:04

and confidence that I can share

28:04

with other writers. So I set up

28:08

the right catalyst, we do plan

28:08

your novel challenges, which is

28:12

one of my email challenges. And

28:12

I do I have a Facebook group

28:16

where I do a top Tip Tuesday

28:16

live, every Tuesday, we're

28:20

talking about writing in the

28:20

process. I do a monthly webinar,

28:24

every month different topic, new

28:24

webinar, and we'll just get

28:27

together for an hour. And we

28:27

talk about all things writing.

28:31

And I absolutely love it, it

28:31

lights me up. Because I think

28:35

sometimes we take for granted

28:35

that if we can do something that

28:39

everyone must be able to do with

28:39

certainly with writing, you

28:44

know, even through school, it's

28:44

like you should be able to

28:48

write. And I think we forget

28:48

that as adults, we forget that

28:52

we can trust our imagination.

28:52

And the confidence that we can

28:58

build up just by having someone

28:58

else say you can do this is

29:03

actually one of the core things

29:03

I think people need from a

29:05

writing coach, it's a reminder

29:05

that, you know, it is always

29:09

going to be easy, there are

29:09

going to be hard days and how

29:12

you actually get through those

29:12

hard days can be really helped

29:16

by having that belief. Even if

29:16

you don't believe in yourself,

29:19

someone else is there saying you

29:19

can do this. This is how you do

29:23

it. You know, you've done this,

29:23

and actually recognizing that

29:27

they're doing more than they

29:27

think a lot of my clients, I

29:31

find like they come to meetings

29:31

and say I haven't done a lot of

29:34

writing this week. But I did

29:34

plot out this and I did do some

29:38

character development. And I did

29:38

research this and I'm like,

29:42

that's all writing. putting

29:42

words on the page isn't always

29:46

the end. Sometimes you do have

29:46

to do the legwork that goes

29:50

beneath it. So I think we take

29:50

for granted sometimes that

29:54

writing is putting words on the

29:54

page when it's so much more than

29:57

that.

29:59

Yes, and so do you,

29:59

you mentioned that people they

30:02

come to the groups? Do you work

30:02

with small groups? Or do you do

30:05

one to one? Or both? How does it

30:05

work?

30:08

I generally do the

30:08

webinars for sort of groups. But

30:11

I do a lot of my one to one

30:11

work, I really love sort of

30:14

delving into individual writers,

30:14

how we can best sort of help

30:19

them in their process, and is

30:19

very much it's not a cookie

30:23

cutter type of thing. You can't

30:23

say, this is how you, this is

30:27

how this person writes. So you

30:27

must write like that. And again,

30:30

that's something that I think

30:30

can be very intimidating for new

30:32

writers, they'll look to other

30:32

writers, when actually, it

30:36

should be what works for you.

30:36

When do you have time? How can

30:41

you carve out that time? What

30:41

boundaries Can you put in to

30:44

make sure that you prioritize

30:44

your writing time, other, you

30:47

know, scrolling through

30:47

Facebook, for example. And so

30:51

did a lot of one to one, either,

30:51

sort of to individual sort of

30:56

meetings to one to one, I know a

30:56

lot of coaches only do like an

31:00

hour, but I tend to do 230

31:00

minute one so that we can look

31:04

at a problem putting some

31:04

solutions, and then review and

31:07

reflect I think the reflection

31:07

bit is really important. And so

31:12

I do that as sort of a two week

31:12

process. I do a six week

31:15

coaching one. But I also do a

31:15

three month one called get

31:18

drafted where we work on either

31:18

getting that first draft down,

31:22

our editing it so that it's a

31:22

publishable standard. So and I

31:26

really, really enjoy working

31:26

with clients on those.

31:29

Yes, yeah, I like

31:29

one to one, working with people

31:32

one to one and really seeing

31:32

that transformation, and seeing

31:36

their face light up when they

31:36

realize there have overcome

31:39

something they were struggling

31:39

with, or even get to the end of

31:42

that draft and are really happy

31:42

with it and think, oh, that

31:46

eureka moment that they've done

31:46

it is very

31:48

Yeah. and those the

31:48

insights that they get along the

31:51

way, one of the reasons I love

31:51

working on one to one is because

31:54

you get to hear more about their

31:54

story. And their characters, and

31:58

you get to see their characters

31:58

develop and the story develop.

32:02

And I love that as a you know,

32:02

I'm a bit nosy. I like to read

32:06

everything. So getting a preview

32:06

into some of the best sellers

32:10

that are going to come out in

32:10

the next sort of five years.

32:19

And know so with

32:19

your students, so I wondered if

32:22

you could just share with us,

32:22

maybe one or two of the more

32:26

common stumbling blocks that you

32:26

see your students come across

32:30

your clients come across?

32:34

Well, I think it's one

32:34

of the ones I think you focus on

32:37

a lot with your writers here as

32:37

well is time. And saying that

32:41

you don't have time to write,

32:41

and I'm very much of a believer

32:45

Are you got MC time you can only

32:45

find it. And one of the key

32:50

things that I see is that the

32:50

people as writers, we don't

32:53

prioritize our writing time. And

32:53

by that, I mean because it's

32:57

four rows. And it's only

32:57

something that we do. And

33:00

generally, we do it alone, that

33:00

people think it's not important.

33:07

So they will do things for other

33:07

people, or they will do the

33:10

housework. You know, our, you

33:10

know, the kids will come in and

33:14

say, our where's this Mambo and

33:14

all this. And then they will go

33:18

and find that with them. Where

33:18

was I'm very much a believer

33:22

that if it's important to you,

33:22

it's important. And this is

33:27

something I repeat to my clients

33:27

over and over again, if it's

33:30

important to you, it's

33:30

important. And prioritizing that

33:36

isn't something that we should

33:36

feel guilty about. It isn't

33:39

something we should feel ashamed

33:39

about. And it isn't something

33:43

that we should let other people

33:43

take away from us. So I find a

33:48

lot of the time that people are

33:48

trying to please other people

33:53

more than they're trying to

33:53

please themselves. And so that's

33:56

one of the things it's sort of

33:56

that that time, but also the

33:59

guilt that's associated with the

33:59

time that I see a lot. And it

34:04

breaks my heart because I know

34:04

exactly what that is like I've

34:08

been through that. And it's only

34:08

by putting in some boundaries

34:13

are actually stepping up and

34:13

saying, I am a writer, which

34:17

means I do need my writing time.

34:17

You know, it's not an argument,

34:21

it's a statement. So I think

34:21

that's probably something I work

34:26

the most on my clients with that

34:26

self belief and the underlying

34:30

prioritization and the

34:30

boundaries that need to be put

34:32

in.

34:34

Yeah, that guilt one

34:34

is a funny one, isn't it? It's

34:37

then that we would feel guilty

34:37

for doing something that gives

34:40

us so much pleasure and makes us

34:40

feel happy. And I don't know if

34:44

it's women in particular, but

34:44

it's it's a strange one. It's

34:48

ammmm

34:48

Do you said married women? Yeah.

34:51

Now I blog posts of

34:51

yours recently was and maybe

34:55

we've maybe answered this a

34:55

little bit already, but I'd

34:57

still love to hear your answer

34:57

is I saw a blog post that was,

35:01

you know, what does it take to

35:01

finish a novel? Because in my

35:04

experience, certainly, it can be

35:04

very easy to start one, but it's

35:08

a lot harder to finish one. So

35:08

what what's your thoughts on

35:12

that? What does it take to finish a novel?

35:16

A lot of

35:16

determination. And a lot of self

35:20

belief, as you say, you've got

35:20

to get past that point of

35:24

thinking that you can't do it. I

35:24

think the word can't is a

35:28

terrible, terrible word. And I

35:28

always advise my clients to

35:32

moderate it. And so I can't yet

35:32

or I can't until, but I think to

35:39

finish a novel for me, it's, it

35:39

is that thing of not going back

35:44

to the first chapter and re

35:44

editing it over and over and

35:46

over again, just because I mean,

35:46

the amount of times that I've

35:51

written a book, you know, I put

35:51

most of it in between eight and

35:55

10. Now full length novels, and

35:55

the first chapter, or even the

36:00

second chapter, are no longer

36:00

relevant by the time I've got to

36:03

the end. So why, you know, you

36:03

don't need to perfect those the

36:07

first time round. And again, it

36:07

is just that sitting down every

36:12

day, or at least as much as you

36:12

can. And just keep going. And

36:18

just keep going. And sometimes I

36:18

know how difficult Why is,

36:24

because sometimes you do get

36:24

stuck. And then as I said, the

36:27

what if tree really helps me

36:27

there. And there are usually

36:31

some mental blocks. But I think

36:31

what it takes to finish a novel

36:36

is self belief, knowing that

36:36

other people have done it. So

36:42

you can do it. It's, you know,

36:42

you if you're a reader, you've

36:46

got bookshelves, and you know,

36:46

that hundreds of hundreds of

36:50

books. And each one of those

36:50

books is evidence that it can be

36:55

done. So writers that you read,

36:55

and that you admire, and that

37:00

you think I'll never be as good

37:00

as them. They thought the exact

37:04

same thing about other writers.

37:04

So it's never seeing other

37:08

writers, it's competition, it's

37:08

always making sure that you're

37:10

seeing them as inspiration, that

37:10

is literally the proof that it

37:14

can be done. And that you can do

37:14

this as well, because they did

37:18

it. And I absolutely love that.

37:18

And it's something that I do, I

37:23

tend to talk about a lot in my

37:23

facebook group. And I think, for

37:28

me, it's certainly something

37:28

that has pushed me forward, when

37:32

I've met other writers, and that

37:32

I've spoken to them. We're all

37:37

just people, you know, even like

37:37

Stephen King, jack Kerouac, all

37:41

of these authors that are big

37:41

and massive, and millionaires,

37:45

and we think will never be that

37:45

good. It's a case of they're

37:48

just people. And they're messy

37:48

first draft, you'll probably

37:53

never see. But comparing your

37:53

messy first draft with their

37:57

beautiful finished published

37:57

novel that's had editors work on

37:59

it and all of this, that's not a

37:59

fair comparison. So you have to

38:04

sort of take that step back and

38:04

realize that we all have messy

38:08

first drafts. We are all at that

38:08

point where we believe that

38:11

we're stuck in the story. And

38:11

it's a case of you are not

38:14

alone. And that's one of the

38:14

reasons why I love the writing

38:17

community so much on Twitter,

38:17

Instagram, and Facebook. We all

38:22

support one another because we

38:22

all know what it's like. And

38:25

sometimes that can be as

38:25

soothing as it is comforting.

38:29

Yeah. Or such wise

38:29

words, their cat, it's so true

38:33

that we It's so unfair for us to

38:33

compare our first draft for the

38:38

finished product on the shelf.

38:38

And I certainly use that myself

38:43

a lot. Just to remind myself

38:43

when I'm feeling really low and

38:45

thinking, Oh, this is rubbish.

38:45

This is awful. Just it's all

38:49

this part of the process. And if

38:49

they can do it, I can do it and

38:53

not not to get that comparison

38:53

itis. Yeah. So tell me, what are

38:57

you working on at the moment.

38:59

So currently, I am

38:59

editing a novel, that it's back

39:05

into my women's fiction sort of

39:05

genre, but more comfortable. And

39:10

it's about a girl or a woman who

39:10

focused on her career. And then

39:15

she discovers that her boyfriend

39:15

of six years and has been

39:19

cheating on her with her

39:19

protege. And not only that, but

39:23

everybody that she knows, knows

39:23

about that and hasn't told her

39:27

and it's been going on for

39:27

years. And it's very much about

39:31

how she then responds to that

39:31

and rebuild her life and rebuild

39:35

trust. So I think trust is going

39:35

to be a big theme for this one

39:40

as well. So I'm currently doing

39:40

final edits on that before we go

39:44

on to some more agents. So I

39:44

already have it on submission

39:47

once and got the lovely form

39:47

rejections that you can you can

39:52

get as a writer that you should

39:52

be proud of because they're

39:54

proof that you tried. So I'm

39:54

just editing it tightening up a

39:58

little bit more. There's been a

39:58

couple Things that I've picked

40:01

up on that I want to change. So

40:01

I'm doing that, and then that

40:05

will go out again for submission

40:05

probably in June.

40:10

So you've Yeah,

40:10

because your first book and my

40:12

writing thinking you self

40:12

published that one. Now you're

40:15

going out for submissions was

40:15

was that? Was that always the

40:20

plan? Or have you had to kind of

40:20

change your thought process

40:23

about the publishing process?

40:25

I think certainly when

40:25

I first started out traditional

40:28

publishing was the be all and

40:28

end all. And, you know, it's the

40:32

put it on a pedestal and look up

40:32

at it and dream about it. I

40:36

think, for me, traditional

40:36

publishing is is a way to reach

40:40

more readers. And that's

40:40

probably why I'm going for it.

40:43

The reason I self published in

40:43

lies with trust was because that

40:48

was a novel that I was very

40:48

proud of, it would have probably

40:51

taken years to get it through

40:51

the traditional publishing

40:55

route, especially considering

40:55

the competition spy thriller,

40:57

genres. And I didn't want to

40:57

wait. And I thought readers

41:01

deserve to have it now. So I

41:01

mean, that's the joy of self

41:05

publishing it, it allows you

41:05

instant access to readers. And

41:10

the star is, and again, that was

41:10

one of the reasons why I

41:13

published my first short story

41:13

collection, the memorial tree,

41:16

that included some of the

41:16

stories that I'd had on

41:18

submission, as well. And it was

41:18

just a way to get out there and

41:22

to almost put my name out there.

41:22

So people started seeing what I

41:25

was doing. So I think for me, I

41:25

will always do some form of self

41:29

publishing. I think I've now

41:29

accepted that. It's fun, it gets

41:34

me to readers. And, you know,

41:34

there is no big difference

41:39

between self publishing and

41:39

traditional publishing anymore,

41:41

as long as you've got a book

41:41

that you are proud of. And, you

41:44

know, you've edited properly.

41:44

And so I think that for me, the

41:49

traditional publishing route for

41:49

sort of the commercial

41:51

restriction will just get me to

41:51

reach more readers. And also

41:56

take an element at that

41:56

marketing stuff that I don't

41:59

like doing. I think as writers,

41:59

we kind of like, I don't mind

42:03

being behind the screen, but

42:03

when it comes to shouting about

42:05

how great my work is, you know,

42:05

self belief isn't that far yet.

42:11

And so yeah, so that's one of

42:11

the things, one of the things

42:15

that I'll do is I'll have to the

42:15

two strands of publishing the

42:17

self publishing under traditional publishing.

42:20

It does feel like is

42:20

the way forward for many people

42:23

is that hybrid approach. And so

42:23

thanks for sharing that I was

42:26

just good to know what your

42:26

process was. So listen, cat,

42:29

where can our listeners find out

42:29

more about you and what you do?

42:34

So yeah, you can find

42:34

me at my website, catlumb.com.

42:38

You'll find my blog there, which

42:38

has posts about my writing life

42:42

with Hugo the destroyer. And

42:42

also as the right catalyst I

42:47

blog. They're using writing tips

42:47

and things like what does it

42:50

take to finish your novel. And

42:50

they can also find me on Twitter

42:53

at cat on the scholar. And if

42:53

they're on Facebook, the right

42:57

catalyst page, Facebook group,

42:57

both free to join. And like I

43:01

said, a good live every Tuesday

43:01

with Tip Tuesday in my facebook

43:05

group. So if you look for the

43:05

right catalyst, come and join

43:08

the group, we'd love to have you

43:09

Fantastic Thank you

43:09

very much. I'll be sure to put

43:12

links to that in the show notes.

43:12

To make it that bit easier.

43:14

That's lovely, Cat, thank you so

43:14

much for your time today.

43:18

Thank you so much for having me. It's been really good fun having a chat with you about

43:20

writing.

43:22

Thank you. And just

43:22

before we sign off, I want to

43:25

remind you to go over to my

43:25

Patreon page, where not only

43:29

will you find further

43:29

conversation as previous guests,

43:33

but Cat has very kindly agreed

43:33

to read an excerpt from her

43:37

novel, and she has a writing

43:37

prompt for you We shall find

43:41

over @patreon.com/Emma Dhesi.

43:41

Thanks very much. Well, thank

43:48

you so much for joining me

43:48

today. I hope you find that

43:51

helpful and inspirational. Now,

43:51

don't forget to come on over to

43:56

facebook and join my group,

43:56

Turning readers into writers. It

44:00

is especially for you if you are

44:00

a beginner writer who is looking

44:04

to write their first novel. If

44:04

you join the group, you will

44:08

also find a free cheat sheet

44:08

there called three secret hacks

44:12

to write with consistency. So go

44:12

to Emmadhesi.com/turning readers

44:18

into writers. Hit join. Can't

44:18

wait to see you in there. All

44:22

right. Thank you. Bye bye.