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0:46

Greetings. I'm

0:48

Jim Finley. And I'm Kirsten

0:50

Oates. Welcome to Turning

0:53

to the Mystics. Hello.

1:01

Welcome everyone to Season 7

1:03

of Turning to the Mystics, where

1:05

we're turning to Meister Eckhart,

1:08

the German mystic. And I'm

1:10

here with Jim to unpack

1:12

his beautiful session from

1:15

last week. And welcome,

1:17

Jim.

1:18

Thank you. Glad

1:20

to be with you again. So there's a lot

1:22

to unpack from the last session. And

1:27

what I heard in the session was

1:30

you describing that if

1:32

we follow this path

1:34

of detachment that Meister Eckhart outlines,

1:37

in this last session you went through these

1:40

states of consciousness that we might

1:43

find ourselves kind of

1:45

being brought into. And

1:48

these are states of experiencing ourselves

1:50

in God, experiencing reality as

1:52

it really is.

1:54

And I thought perhaps

1:58

what might be helpful today is to go through the

2:01

states of consciousness and

2:03

describe them a little. And just

2:05

tell me Jim if these are the the four if I'm

2:08

headed in the right direction. So we start

2:10

with dissimilarity.

2:12

Yes. Next we

2:15

move into similarity. Right.

2:17

Then identity. Yes. And then

2:20

break through into the Godhead. That's correct.

2:23

Okay great. So we'll go through those today. But

2:26

it seems to make no sense to start

2:29

going through the path of detachment in these

2:31

states of consciousness

2:33

without grounding ourselves in Eckhart's

2:36

worldview. Right. The core

2:38

foundation of this path. So

2:41

perhaps we might just do a little reminder

2:43

of that. That'd be a good place to start. And

2:46

I want to share also that that those four

2:48

stages, one of the key sources

2:50

that have been so helpful for me is Reiner Sherman's

2:53

book, Wonder, Myster Eckhart,

2:55

Wandering Joy. And

2:58

they'll be able to see it in the resources we'll list

3:00

it there. Because different in-depth

3:03

commentators lay it out a little differently.

3:05

You know, it's a certain way to kind of schematize

3:09

his sermons, which are more kind

3:11

of holographic. That is each one kind

3:14

of contains it in a way. So it

3:16

lays it out in a certain structure where you can see

3:18

a grace progression. And also

3:21

again to say that I realized, I said at the beginning,

3:23

that I'm aware this is way too much for

3:25

one talk. But it allows

3:27

for closure, where you can see

3:30

the arc. And the listeners

3:32

on their own, if they're so inclined, can slow it down

3:34

and go back. And so on. So let's

3:36

start first with his vision.

3:39

Like where he starts from.

3:42

The way he starts from is that if

3:46

we try to understand what it means to be real,

3:48

in

3:49

the fullest possible sense.

3:52

In the fullest possible sense, to be

3:54

real means to be oneself. The

3:57

infinite actuality of reality.

3:59

And if we define

4:02

being real in that sense, then

4:05

only God is real. And

4:07

likewise, by understanding reality

4:10

in that sense, we in contrast

4:13

are not real.

4:14

We are not real because we are

4:17

not the infinity of reality itself.

4:19

The next point, he says, is

4:22

that then God in an ongoing

4:24

self-donating act

4:26

gives the infinite presence

4:29

of God away, Galazinite, this

4:31

letting go. God

4:34

gives the infinite presence away

4:37

in and as

4:39

the intimate immediacy

4:42

of the gift and the miracle of our very presence

4:45

in our nothingness without God, the presence

4:48

of others and the presence of all things. So

4:51

it's very paradoxical that in

4:53

one sense we're nothing without God, that

4:55

if God would cease loving us into the

4:57

present moment, he says everything would vanish.

5:01

But precisely because we're nothing without

5:03

God, our very presence is the presence

5:05

of God

5:06

and our nothingness without God.

5:08

And he's going to start saying that if we

5:11

start to see reality in this way, we need

5:14

to understand, accept

5:16

the fact that we tend not to realize this. And

5:20

therefore, how can we be healed from

5:22

what hinders us from realizing it, which kind

5:24

of sets that card off in its past? So

5:27

that's his poetic beginning of

5:29

the divine nature of our situation,

5:32

in our nothingness. Yeah. So

5:34

then we start in the state of dissimilarity.

5:37

What's that state of consciousness for Eckhart?

5:39

Yes. Let's say that

5:41

God, let there be light, stones

5:44

and trees, God pouring itself out as a reality

5:46

of stones and trees and water at the darkness

5:49

of the night without God. And

5:52

with us as persons created

5:54

by God in the image and likeness of God,

5:57

God creates us with a human nature

5:59

capable of living.

5:59

are realizing this.

6:02

And so the glory of human nature

6:04

isn't just reason and all that comes from reason,

6:07

literature and science and culture, it's the

6:09

gift of reason. But the

6:11

deepest gift of our nature, which

6:14

he called the powers of the soul, we would

6:16

say the interiority of our faculties, of

6:19

the intellect, the memory, and the will of

6:21

understanding, remembering, and desiring,

6:24

and loving, is

6:25

that

6:27

these powers are endowed

6:30

with this capacity to realize

6:32

this. And furthermore, they're

6:34

also endowed to begin to realize

6:37

that God not only is being poured out

6:39

as a reality of ourselves and our powers,

6:42

but God is poured out where the ground of

6:44

God, which is the abyss-like depths of

6:46

God, has been given to

6:48

us by God as the abyss-like depths

6:51

of ourself. So the God's

6:53

ground and our ground are already one ground,

6:55

so there's like an infinite unit of mystery

6:58

hidden down in the depths of our powers. This

7:01

is our situation.

7:02

But our situation is

7:04

that the powers are exiled

7:06

from the ground.

7:08

So we tend to, and this is one way of understanding

7:11

the mystery of fallen human

7:13

nature of the original sin, not

7:16

as a blight on the soul,

7:18

but rather our capacity

7:20

to realize that we are God's manifested

7:23

presence is traumatized. And

7:25

we tend to think we're nothing but the self things

7:27

happen to.

7:28

We're nothing but my ability

7:30

to understand or not understand, my ability

7:33

to remember or not remember, my ability to

7:35

love or not be loved, to find love and lose

7:37

love. We think that this is all that we are.

7:39

This is everything.

7:42

Even though the ground is within us in

7:44

this exiled state, we're oblivious

7:47

to the ground shining out from within into

7:49

God pouring it from without. And

7:51

we don't see that. And because we

7:54

think we are nothing but our powers

7:56

or our temporal self through time, we cling

7:59

to this.

7:59

experience of ourself, which is the

8:02

fear of death, the fear of growing old, the

8:04

fear of loss, and so on. We

8:06

don't realize that anything we're even

8:08

capable of attaining or losing is

8:11

infinitely less than what alone fulfills us,

8:14

which is given to us as a

8:15

plenitude of the ground.

8:17

And that clinging then further

8:20

closes off access to the ground, which

8:22

is suffering.

8:23

So he's saying, what

8:25

is the path? What is the path

8:28

to be liberated from this clinging,

8:31

which is going to be his path of detachment, which

8:33

leads to similarity. And

8:36

this clinging state, this similarity,

8:38

that's the image of the image in the mirror, a

8:41

full length image of the mirror that can think and

8:43

walk, and it thinks it can be

8:45

real without you. It's going to launch

8:48

out on its own.

8:49

And you try to explain to the

8:51

image of you, it won't go well without you because it's the

8:53

image of you. And he

8:55

said, this is what it's like with God. There's this

8:57

perception we're substantially

8:59

real all on our own, and we're nothing

9:02

but that.

9:03

And so he's saying, how

9:05

are we liberated

9:07

from that delusion? And

9:10

it's a true, Jim, that in this state of dissimilarity,

9:13

there's something that arises

9:16

that gives us the desire

9:18

to go on a path

9:20

of detachment or to look for a

9:22

path to find this. Yeah.

9:25

Yes. Because that part is, he's a preacher,

9:27

and he's preaching the word of God, these are sermons.

9:31

And so he begins by saying that through

9:33

faith, we know that God

9:35

illumines the powers and transforms

9:38

the powers.

9:40

And so it's through faith

9:42

then in the Christian dispensation of grace

9:45

through Christ. We know that our

9:47

understanding is

9:49

transformed by God in intimate realization

9:52

that we're intimately understood,

9:54

which is freedom from the need to understand.

9:58

And we are who God

9:59

God understands us to be in

10:01

God, and we turn towards

10:04

that. And our memory, our

10:06

remembering self and all that we remember,

10:08

don't remember, we realize through

10:10

God that God will never forget us. Will

10:13

a mother ever forget the child of her womb? And

10:16

so everything is eternal because every moment

10:18

of life is eternal

10:21

in God, and we trust in the eternality

10:24

of our passage through time.

10:26

And in our desire, we know

10:28

that our desire is an echo of God's

10:30

desire for us.

10:32

That God is this infinite love that loves us

10:34

so.

10:36

That God has given us God's very ground,

10:38

is our own ground.

10:40

And so at this point, we're aware of the ground,

10:42

but we kind of know it through faith. So

10:45

we don't experience it yet, but this is

10:47

the state where grace transforms

10:49

the power, it's discipleship, the

10:52

life of devotional sincerity. And

10:55

as we follow that path day by day,

10:57

walking the walk,

10:59

we're transformed from within

11:01

by this

11:04

path of detachment, which

11:07

is how the path starts. And

11:09

Jim, is it true to say that the faculties

11:12

are initially transformed in this

11:15

relationship with Jesus, like recognizing

11:18

Jesus as the one giving

11:20

us our understanding of ourselves

11:23

to know who we are, those... That's exactly

11:25

right. So in Jesus... To desire what Jesus desires.

11:27

Yes, like so in Jesus' fear

11:30

not, I'm with you always. Through the power

11:32

of the Spirit who dwells in our hearts, we're

11:35

empowered to know that God loves

11:37

us always, and therefore fear

11:39

has no foundations. Even

11:42

in the midst of our fears, there's

11:44

freedom from the tyranny of fear through

11:46

this faith in Christ. It's like that. So

11:49

this is this path of discipleship. And

11:51

so when Jesus says, follow me,

11:54

follow me into the bosom of God, follow

11:56

me, so on, that we then follow

11:59

Jesus.

11:59

by freeing

12:02

ourself from what hinders us from

12:04

fully living in this Christ consciousness, to

12:07

a path of detachment. So the path

12:09

then is not one of attaining anything

12:11

because in the ground nothing's missing. So

12:14

we're really trying to recognize

12:17

and liberate ourself from what hinders

12:19

us from realizing that nothing is missing

12:21

and then Eckhart gives practical examples

12:24

of that. So if we live

12:26

this path of detachment we

12:29

might move from this state of dissimilarity

12:32

into what Eckhart calls similarity.

12:35

So I think you called this the first

12:37

fruit of detachment. That's right.

12:39

So let's say he gives practical examples.

12:42

I'll just give one again, mind you. He

12:45

said that when we're involved in a project

12:47

which unfolds in time, attachment

12:52

is being attached to the outcome of the project.

12:55

Am I going to finish it on time? Will

12:57

it turn out as good as I hope it will? And

13:00

so we're not free from it.

13:02

So what we're to do, he says, to practice

13:04

detachment is to do our best that it would

13:07

turn out well. But grounded

13:09

in a peace is not dependent whether it turns out

13:11

well or not. Because our peace

13:13

is dependent on this being infinitely

13:16

loved by God in the depths of our self

13:18

beyond understanding. And

13:21

the project, as it turns out, doesn't

13:23

have the power to name who we are. But

13:26

when we're cut off from the ground, when we're cut

13:28

off from God, it does. Because

13:30

if it's criticized, where we fall

13:32

short, we feel shame, we feel regret,

13:36

if it goes even better than we thought, we walk

13:38

around kind of more

13:40

amazing than we thought we were, how

13:43

people can realize that and so

13:45

on. So he said that happens

13:47

in relationships, all these examples in

13:49

life, they're real, we experience

13:52

them. But we catch ourselves

13:55

absolutizing the relative. It's

13:57

contingent, it's ephemeral. But

14:00

we give identity and we cling to

14:02

fear and react. So every time we notice

14:05

that we're to take a deep breath, it's

14:07

relatively real, but deep breath, that

14:10

this infinite generosity of God is present

14:12

with me in the midst of the relationship,

14:14

in the midst of the project, in the midst of whatever.

14:17

And we cultivate that internet, which is really Christ

14:20

consciousness. Is that ripens,

14:22

like, maturing in discipleship?

14:25

Then we move from dissimilarity to a

14:28

state of similarity.

14:29

The similarity, is it a

14:31

similarity to the qualities of

14:33

God or the ways we experience

14:36

God?

14:36

Yes. So we would

14:38

say then, he's going to use the example

14:40

of the just person, the person who's just.

14:44

So God's the infinity of justice, God's

14:46

the infinity of mercy, God's

14:49

the infinity of humility, God's

14:51

the infinity of love, God's

14:53

the infinity of beauty. So

14:56

the more then we turn towards

14:58

something greater than ourselves, say justice,

15:01

we're moved towards justice, and

15:04

we give ourselves over to justice.

15:07

The more we give ourselves over to justice,

15:09

he says about the just person, we use Dr. Martin

15:12

Luther King as an example, that

15:14

we have no life of our own. And

15:17

the thing about this state of similarity, it

15:19

can be broken. That is because if we

15:21

turn away from justice, it becomes

15:24

merely legal. And we

15:26

turn away a lot, actually, we're just human

15:28

beings. And we keep turning back

15:30

again, turning back again, turning back again,

15:32

to become more and more habituated. So

15:35

that's why I use the phrase, define

15:37

that act, define that person,

15:39

define that community, which

15:42

when you give yourself over to it with your whole

15:44

heart, it unravels your petty

15:47

preoccupation with your self absorbed self,

15:49

and brings you home to yourself. And

15:52

you don't live on your terms.

15:54

You live on these divine terms, embodied

15:57

in a classroom full of students. in

16:00

a

16:00

patient in a hospital or helping

16:03

somebody at the store find the product that they're looking

16:06

for, or helping

16:09

your child read a good night's story, or accepting

16:11

your aloneness. So every

16:14

aspect of life has this possibility

16:16

of this great

16:18

letting go of absoluteizing

16:21

contingency. And what's

16:23

shining forth then is this

16:25

similarity with God, to be with

16:27

God always, who's with us in all

16:30

things.

16:31

These aspects you outline

16:33

justice, mercy, humility,

16:36

love, beauty, are they all aspects

16:38

of love? Is that one way we could look at

16:40

it?

16:41

You could say that, yes. You could

16:43

say that love is the effulgence

16:45

or the fullness of

16:47

justice. Love is the fullness of mercy.

16:49

Love is the fullness of beauty. Because

16:53

God is love.

16:54

Yes. God is love. And we're created

16:56

by love in the image and likeness of love.

16:59

And so it finds us kind

17:01

of as a calling

17:03

in our situation, in the

17:05

relationship, or a ministry,

17:08

or a task, or a fidelity

17:10

to something. And we're

17:12

transformed in our fidelity

17:15

to that, and ever deeper realizations

17:17

of God's fidelity to us, concretized

17:20

in that path.

17:21

So the act is something

17:23

where we might feel this

17:26

sense of love flowing through us. Something

17:29

coming from beyond us. And do

17:31

you think it has a sacrificial feeling at

17:33

first?

17:33

It does. Because

17:36

what is his, in the Merton sessions,

17:39

I said, Merton once said, we should all get

17:41

down on our knees right now and thank God we can't

17:43

live the way we want to. God doesn't

17:45

let us get away with it. He said, you can't love

17:48

and live on your own terms. And

17:50

see, this sort of detachment comes in. My

17:52

fidelity to the spouse, to the child,

17:55

to my own solitude, to the earth,

17:57

to poetry, to art, to the ex-

17:59

acceptance of growing older or dealing

18:02

with a long illness meets with resistance.

18:05

It meets with resistance because we keep

18:07

trying to pull it back to deal with it on our terms.

18:10

So he says we have to be very released. See,

18:13

we have to keep giving over ourselves

18:15

to this generosity, which

18:17

is infinitely richer than

18:20

what we're capable to experience when we're

18:22

clinging to something. I see. If we

18:24

just let go with the plenitude

18:26

of the flow, more and more we

18:28

become acclimated to the generosity

18:31

and little by little we're liberated

18:33

or freed up by grace to

18:37

live on God's terms, concretized in

18:39

what the present moment is asking out of us.

18:42

Because in our innermost being we are

18:44

this flow of love. Exactly. And so the

18:46

detachment is, it's kind

18:48

of surrender and letting go into what we

18:50

actually already are in

18:53

our being.

18:53

It's almost like another

18:56

way of saying it is that there's attachment

18:58

in this negative sense, this hindrance.

19:01

Yeah. But there's also a kind

19:04

of an attachment like we're bonded

19:06

to fidelity, to infinite love's

19:08

fidelity to us. The word

19:11

monk, the etymology of the word monk is one,

19:13

to will one thing. It's the

19:15

will of God revealed to me in what

19:17

my awakening heart feels I'm being called

19:20

to be faithful to.

19:22

And it's,

19:25

yeah, there's a kind of a

19:27

quiet seal to it, like a quiet

19:30

commitment to that.

19:33

You talked about the act that

19:35

we engage in having

19:37

an energy of its own. You could kind of come upon

19:39

this experience of it, having an energy of

19:42

its own and that it grants destiny

19:45

to you.

19:46

The quote that I gave from Reiner

19:48

Sherman,

19:49

he says, you know, he say, it so

19:51

happened.

19:52

Or it came to pass.

19:54

And so we were going along,

19:57

minding our own business, we turned the corner and

19:59

we met someone.

20:00

And we didn't realize it, but our life was about to

20:02

be changed. Where

20:05

we decided on a certain career, you know, I think

20:07

I'll teach kindergarten students.

20:10

I could make a living. But

20:12

then you realize you're being taken over

20:15

by your love for all these children.

20:17

It so happened, it

20:19

came to pass, that I was inclined

20:22

to lean in this direction.

20:23

And unforeseeably, it

20:26

grants destiny. And

20:28

what this starts to suggest is

20:30

that God's presence is

20:32

the infinity of the concretizations

20:34

of the unforeseeability of life itself.

20:39

Because see, who's guiding this? Yeah.

20:42

Who's guiding this? And

20:44

so this is a sense of abandonment to divine

20:46

providence, which

20:49

is a mind of, I came to do the will of the one who

20:51

sent me. So we learned to trust

20:53

the unfolding flow of things. So

20:56

the transformations, I love

20:58

Dag Hantersholt's saying, for

21:01

all that has been, thank you for all that

21:03

will be, yes. For all that

21:05

has been has brought me right up to this very moment

21:07

where I'm even able to care about such things.

21:10

And I don't know what the future holds, but I know

21:12

if my heart is open, I'll be more of the same. See?

21:16

Because you're not done with me yet. That's

21:18

the feel of it, I think.

21:19

You said that we

21:22

remain in this state of similarity while

21:25

we can turn away from the act,

21:28

and we lose kind of that sense

21:30

of being in that divine flow

21:33

of love.

21:34

And so as we're engaging in the

21:36

act, does it just, it's bestowed on

21:38

us that we come into a state of identity?

21:41

Yes. What he says is that, he

21:43

says there's no similarity in God.

21:46

The persons of the Trinity aren't like one

21:48

another. You can't count the persons of the Trinity.

21:51

The divine relations of knowledge

21:53

and love and trans-subjective oneness,

21:56

like identity. And

21:58

we're called to that. By

22:00

the way, to back up on similarity for a minute,

22:03

is that another thing, part of

22:05

the path, I think also, is that every

22:07

time we slip and fall, we have

22:10

to renew our commitment. We're

22:12

tempted to be disheartened about ourself. But

22:15

what we discover, the whole message of Jesus,

22:18

is the love, when this infinite love

22:20

touches brokenness, it turns

22:22

the encounter with brokenness into mercy.

22:26

And so we place our faith, not in our ability

22:28

to be faithful to what we're called to be. Our

22:30

faith is God being infinitely in love with

22:33

us and our inability of living up to what we're called

22:35

to be. So even the slippage

22:37

is grace. See, even the

22:39

slippage, but it takes time. We don't see it

22:41

yet in similarity. You know, we're still

22:44

leaning into it and I'm going to try harder.

22:47

But as that process ripens, we

22:50

realize that we need to go beyond

22:52

similarity, being drawn by

22:54

God into this identity, into a state

22:57

of identity. And that's where he uses the example

22:59

of listening to music.

23:01

Do you think, Jim, in that slippage,

23:04

if we're on this path, that is just another

23:06

opportunity to practice detachment? It is.

23:10

As a matter of fact, you know, in the death dimension

23:12

of psychotherapy, a

23:14

person comes in with what hurts, like

23:17

psychological symptoms that embody suffering.

23:20

And when you start to look at it like

23:22

in a safe, vulnerable, safe way

23:25

and start laying back the layers, you

23:28

discover that an

23:30

aspect of yourself that causes suffering is

23:33

actually a survival strategy

23:35

formed in trauma and abandonment.

23:38

And one learns to be more insightful,

23:41

more reality based, more compassionate,

23:44

more accepting. And one kind of integrates

23:46

and moves through these things. And

23:49

so that's kind of the feel of

23:51

all of this. We become more and more inclusive in

23:53

our understanding.

23:55

As I Jesus, although we slip away many

23:57

times, God made us more inclusive.

23:59

never slips away from us and

24:02

is infinitely one with us in the slippage.

24:05

And so mercy is really, it actually

24:07

deepens our dependency on God

24:09

and our gratitude to God.

24:12

Identity is what we long for. Yes. Moving

24:16

beyond the similarity to identity. And

24:19

you said that the mystic says, look what

24:21

love has done to me. So this has

24:23

done unto us, this movement from similarity

24:26

to identity.

24:27

Yes. We're on a path not of our own

24:30

making. I mean, it is our making because we have to make choices.

24:32

Yeah. But the choices is a kind

24:35

of a bediential fidelity

24:37

to an infinite choice God has made

24:40

to give God to us as our very life.

24:42

So we've all been judged, but we've all

24:45

been judged by mercy. So

24:47

on a path not of our own making, because

24:49

we're always surrendering

24:51

to this oneness, which is already achieved

24:53

as secretly within us in the ground. We're

24:56

drawn like a gravitational

24:58

pull toward this

25:00

oneness. And so oneness then is

25:03

a state of consciousness. It

25:06

first dawns on us as an event.

25:08

So for example, listening to music, where

25:11

the solos is pouring the beauty

25:13

is flowing through the solos. The

25:16

solos is surrendered to it. So

25:19

when you listening becomes so surrendered

25:22

that you just give yourself over to the beauty,

25:25

it's no longer true that

25:27

the solos is on one side,

25:30

giving it, you're on the other side receiving, there's

25:32

only the event of the music that enraptures

25:35

us.

25:36

Next, it starts dawning on you

25:38

that it's always like that. There's

25:40

a certain point. It is true that God's

25:42

on one side creating us moment by moment

25:45

by moment by moment heartbeat by heartbeat.

25:47

And it's also true of God would cease that we'd vanish.

25:50

But it's also true because of the generosity

25:53

of God is no longer true.

25:56

That God's a creator on one side

25:58

and we're the created on the other.

25:59

other side, this identity that

26:02

enraptures us. And

26:04

for emergency, then that's the point there. That's

26:08

the oneness that God is being poured out as

26:11

the act that God is.

26:13

And we're receiving that

26:16

as the act that we are. So that's

26:18

why I say our next inhalation is not an

26:20

option. You know, the day doesn't go well without

26:22

it. And so we are the act of receiving

26:26

the generosity, and God's the act of

26:28

giving. And so there's a point, there's a point of meeting.

26:31

But here, the ground is understood as a

26:33

verb.

26:34

See, it's understood as a process. And

26:37

then we can see that that can be cultivated

26:40

in fidelity to a meditation practice.

26:43

We can sit and refine our awareness

26:45

of the breath is that, the

26:47

unfolding of time is that. And little

26:49

by little, that can become habituated.

26:53

And the idea here, I think the distinction here

26:55

with identity is that it becomes

26:58

unbroken, that the breaking doesn't break

27:01

it.

27:02

So for Teresa of Avila, but when we

27:04

turn the interior castle, she

27:06

says in spiritual betrothal in the sixth mansion,

27:08

there's God's burn

27:10

flame, the God's candle. And then there's our

27:13

flame. And when the two

27:15

flames touch, they become one flame.

27:17

So under optimal conditions and deep

27:19

meditation, we experience the oneness. But

27:22

when the cell phone goes off, it breaks. But

27:25

then she says, but in the seventh mansion,

27:27

it's not like that.

27:28

And she uses the example of

27:31

crossing a river after a raging rainstorm,

27:34

and the river is swollen, and it's

27:36

a little horse drawn cart. And

27:38

as the horse pulls the cart at the other side of the river,

27:40

the cart tips over, she falls in the mud on her

27:43

hands and knees. And

27:45

she's, Lord, why are you letting this happen? He

27:47

said, Teresa, this is the way I treat my friends.

27:50

She says, no wonder you have so few. So

27:52

even God's the infinity of

27:54

the breaking points. God's

27:56

the infinity of the laws. And

27:58

I think a metaphor for this.

27:59

as the stages of dying when

28:02

someone comes to acceptance. See,

28:04

it's freedom from the tyranny of death in the midst

28:06

of death. See, it's

28:08

freedom from the haphazardness

28:11

of life in the midst of the haphazardness

28:14

that the grace is ribboned through all of it in

28:16

some unbreakable way, some obituated

28:19

subtle state.

28:21

So would it be the case then in this

28:23

state of identity

28:25

where we described in similarity,

28:27

where we can turn away

28:29

from love or justice or compassion, in

28:32

the state of identity, we stay connected,

28:35

but it doesn't mean we won't slip in

28:37

kind of our

28:38

finite way of behaving,

28:41

so we might slip, but in the slippage, we

28:43

still stay connected. Is that a way of

28:46

looking at it? Yes, that's

28:47

good. I'd put it this way. I

28:49

do think there's growth in virtue.

28:52

And so as we mature

28:54

in this, we slip less.

28:56

Yeah, yeah. But

28:59

we still slip. The difference

29:02

lies in how we understand the slip.

29:04

And so far as we attribute

29:07

the slip

29:08

as having the authority to lessen

29:11

God's infinite oneness with us, we're

29:13

still in attachment to conditioned states.

29:16

Insofar as the slip, the quote

29:19

I gave in an earlier session when

29:21

they asked Saint Benedict in the fifth century founded

29:23

monasticism, monastic life in the West,

29:26

what do you monks do in the monastery all day?

29:28

He says, fall down and get up, fall down and get

29:31

up, fall down and get up. And

29:33

so in the falling, we're caught in

29:35

the free fall by God's mercy. So

29:38

even the broken places are

29:40

lessons in liberation,

29:43

lessons of this unwavering

29:46

plenitude of love that permeates

29:48

our wavering ways. And it

29:50

becomes, it doesn't mean we still don't

29:52

try to improve on

29:54

that because it hurts people, it hurts us, like

29:56

everybody. But it does mean

29:59

it's infused are permeated

30:01

by this bountiful generosity

30:04

that includes the brokenness itself.

30:07

What comes to mind is Mother Teresa,

30:09

because we now know that she,

30:13

although she on the outside and in her

30:15

acts, looked generous and loving

30:18

and merciful, internally

30:20

she wasn't experiencing God's presence

30:22

in that way. She

30:23

didn't, that's right. So in a way she's

30:25

like the patron saying of the dark night of the soul.

30:28

And the thing is she was at peace in

30:30

it,

30:31

because she was surrendered over to God's

30:33

will, which freed her up to

30:35

channel this love that she couldn't

30:37

feel. And sometimes it's that way with

30:39

us too. I think sometimes

30:42

we're powerless to feel it.

30:44

But the powerless is, there's

30:47

a kind of a providential powerlessness

30:49

to feel.

30:50

By your fruit you shall know them. And

30:52

you can tell that God's purposes

30:55

are being achieved through you in your

30:57

poverty.

30:58

By the way you're present

31:00

to people or to the earth or to time.

31:03

And so it has all these very personal

31:07

ramifications or forms it can take.

31:10

And that would be identity. Yes,

31:12

exactly. Within a state of identity. That's exactly right, that's

31:14

exactly right. And it's heading toward

31:17

the ground. Yeah. And we're

31:19

getting closer now to the ground. And closer.

31:21

So this idea of being surrendered,

31:24

so surrendered, so accepting,

31:26

so yielding.

31:28

Eckhart says this can

31:30

happen in the foundations of a family

31:32

or of a community, in

31:34

a dialogue that actualizes two words

31:36

of existence. That it can happen in really

31:39

simple things, this unfolding

31:41

into identity.

31:43

Yeah, it's how I put it. It's

31:45

an intimate realization of the incomprehensible

31:48

stature of simple things.

31:50

An intimate

31:52

realization of the divinity

31:55

of standing up and sitting down, of

31:57

laughing and crying,

31:58

of waking up and falling. falling asleep. There's

32:01

an underlying, habituated sense of

32:03

the divinity, that the effulgence

32:05

or the fullness of the details

32:08

of the day.

32:09

And so, we're back again, like, it's so happened

32:11

it came to pass unforeseeably.

32:14

And then an example he uses too, if you're listening to a

32:16

teacher say like Eckhart,

32:18

listening to, I can remember sitting with Merton listening

32:20

to him or possibly, like,

32:22

you don't get it at first.

32:24

Like, you get little pieces and you start connecting

32:26

the dots and all of a sudden the Gestalt

32:29

clicks, I get it.

32:30

See, at Lornegan was the insight,

32:33

it's a moment of insight. And likewise,

32:36

in relationships, you

32:38

can be in a relationship with somebody and

32:40

you can tell they're coming to the point they

32:43

get you. There's

32:44

still ways that they don't get you yet because you don't

32:46

get yourself yet, you're on a path, but

32:48

they get you. And when you can return the favor

32:51

through love and the daily rhythms

32:53

of the day, when two people

32:55

realize they get each other,

32:57

they see each other, you would say God's the

32:59

infinity of that. And

33:01

so, there's like a single

33:03

word that gathers up the

33:05

essence of everything that you're saying. So,

33:08

when Eckhart says the I, E-Y-E,

33:10

the I with which I see God is the I

33:12

with God sees being. If you

33:14

sit with Eckhart, it clicks and

33:16

you realize that these distinct aphorisms

33:19

are embodiments that are echoed through everything that

33:21

he says.

33:22

Yes. It's just like that

33:24

example he gives of the music because

33:27

there's a moment with a piece

33:29

of music that we love. I

33:31

like the idea of the music as an example

33:33

because it's not just the ears

33:35

that become one with the music. Like, you

33:37

have to let it

33:39

influence your whole being, like

33:42

it kind of overtakes you.

33:43

That's exactly right. And then you

33:45

can also then see as you

33:47

then, as it crystallizes that

33:49

way, Yo-Yo

33:50

Ma and his interview

33:52

with Christa Tippett on Being, he

33:54

said when he's playing the cello, he's always

33:57

very aware that he's not there to prove something.

33:59

He's there

33:59

share something.

34:01

And so everything we

34:03

have, we've been given, we've been given it to

34:05

give it. And then

34:07

you realize that you listen to the symphony,

34:10

then every movement of the symphony is an embodiment

34:13

of this crystallization because

34:15

it holds together.

34:16

Like life is like a song. You

34:18

know what I mean? It's like the symphonic nature

34:20

of our life. Yeah, that's what's coming

34:23

through. And the conversation

34:26

or the music can be coming

34:28

from someone who's no longer living.

34:31

Exactly.

34:32

Gabriel Marcel, he

34:34

writes, not only was a great philosopher, but

34:36

he was also a playwright and a musician

34:38

and composer. And

34:40

he was very close to his mother, and she died

34:43

when he was young. And he says,

34:45

it's amazing how present a dead person

34:47

can

34:48

be.

34:49

That's the deathless nature of the beloved,

34:52

like shining through the ongoing unfoldings

34:55

of your day.

35:00

Turning to the mystics will continue

35:02

in a moment.

35:08

This feeling of destiny that

35:11

you talked about, so

35:13

we find the act that brings us

35:15

into this

35:16

harmonic kind of flow

35:21

of love, and we

35:23

get this feeling of destiny. Is that because

35:25

we're destined for love?

35:27

I would say two things. One,

35:29

I want to start first with the patterns of love,

35:32

like the configurations of love. And

35:34

so I'll say this about myself, but I'm sure

35:36

it's like with you or Cory or any

35:38

of the listeners.

35:40

When I look at where I'm at

35:42

right now, like where I'm at within myself

35:45

and talking like this with you, and

35:47

I look back at my origins being

35:49

born in Akron, Ohio. And

35:52

when I look back at the winding path of my

35:54

life, I couldn't have

35:56

planned it if I tried.

35:58

I couldn't have planned it if I tried. I tried.

36:01

See, and I think that's destiny.

36:03

It's not by accident that

36:05

I can sit here like this.

36:07

See, it's the unfolding of destiny. So

36:10

we're in the midst of the unfolding

36:12

realization of the providential nature

36:14

of destiny.

36:16

And there may be a lot within us

36:18

still that's unresolved.

36:21

But we know that as we sit with

36:23

the unresolved, that too is destiny.

36:26

Because as we keep leaning into it and waiting

36:28

and staying open, T.S. Eliot

36:31

says to hope too soon would be to hope for the wrong

36:33

thing.

36:34

It's like to think too soon would be

36:36

to think the wrong thing. It's like we're not

36:38

yet ready for hope.

36:40

But we ripen and mature like

36:42

we're sifted like wheat.

36:44

And we're transformed that

36:46

way.

36:47

And this is what Eckhart's all about because he

36:49

was living this in the world.

36:51

He was living this in the unfoldings

36:53

of the day and like

36:55

Jesus lived.

36:57

And we certainly don't start off surrendered

36:59

and yielding and accepting and all

37:01

those things. So that's part of the unfolding,

37:04

the destiny, if we get to a place where

37:06

we can look back like this.

37:07

I think this, that in an infinitesimal,

37:11

we're the embodiment of this trust.

37:14

Embodiment

37:14

of this trust because it's the love bond.

37:17

And if all parents were infinitely loving

37:19

and generous and kind, we would

37:21

internalize the love glow from the parent.

37:25

But the parents impose on us the

37:28

unfinished business of their life. You

37:30

look into your parents eyes and no one looks back.

37:33

The very one you depend on to keep you safe is the one

37:35

who's hurting you. And

37:38

also by the way, this paradox

37:40

is woven into birth itself because being

37:42

born is not a picnic. That's

37:44

what I'm saying. And the

37:46

very first thing they do to you when you get out there, they hold you

37:48

up and give you a smack, like welcome

37:51

to life on this earth. So right

37:53

from the beginning, there's the transparency

37:55

of the infant's trust and

37:57

then the very ways that deepens, but also

37:59

the ways we. of internalized traumatizations

38:02

and hurt. And so this

38:04

path toward identity and toward

38:06

the ground is we're being healed from

38:10

the ability of the circumstantial

38:12

unfoldings to have the authority

38:15

to name who we ultimately are and are called

38:17

to be in the midst of unfoldings. That

38:20

makes

38:20

sense. And that's just a part of our destiny. It

38:23

is, it is a path. Built into

38:25

our reality. Yes, and that's why I think the mystery

38:27

of Christ rose from his wounds. It's

38:30

the eternality of the wounds glorified

38:32

by love. And so there's a certain

38:35

holiness to the story. Not

38:37

to romanticize the trauma or the tragic

38:39

because there's nothing just to violate

38:41

it really. The tragic really is tragic.

38:45

But the point is it's not just tragic.

38:47

Because nothing is just anything.

38:50

Except an unfolding of a love that hasn't

38:53

yet completely shined through it yet. But

38:56

when we pass through the veil of death, it will

38:58

forever. And now through

39:00

detachment, it can start to shine through it now.

39:04

You're gonna be at inner peace in the unresolved

39:06

matters of your life.

39:07

So Eckhart identifies Mary

39:09

as someone who lived,

39:12

I think the words were immovable detachment.

39:15

So, and she went through birth

39:18

and life and death

39:20

and resurrection. She did. And I love

39:22

this idea of this state of immovable

39:25

detachment. It's a nice image because

39:28

he says that, the

39:30

boards of the door swing back and forth. But

39:32

they hinge is stationary.

39:34

So they hinges this axis

39:36

of stillness. But it isn't as

39:39

if I'm hidden in the axis of stillness,

39:41

but if I do anything, it'll break the stillness. It

39:44

has to be that the stillness permeates

39:46

the action itself. I see. Like

39:49

Richard Rohrer, action and contemplation. The

39:51

action doesn't disrupt the contemplation.

39:54

It's the death like nature of our actions. And

39:57

this is the mystery of Christ too.

39:59

made flesh and dwelt among us. So

40:02

we're trying to find this axis

40:04

of this deepening

40:06

identity and see how the deepening identity

40:09

is ribboned through the fluctuating patterns

40:13

of gain and loss and birth and death

40:15

and sorrow and joy and

40:17

life. Mary's

40:19

like the archetypal hinge on the door, so

40:22

to speak, with a life that

40:25

included the birth and the death

40:27

and the loss.

40:29

She's like an archetype of us. When the

40:31

angel hail Mary full of grace, the Lord

40:33

is with thee. He's looked on it the Magnificat,

40:35

he's looked on his servant in her nothingness. Henceforth

40:39

all generations will call me blessed.

40:42

See the Mater Dei, the mother of God, is

40:45

giving birth to... And we, Eckhart, say we

40:47

give birth to Christ

40:49

out of this identity. We give

40:51

birth to Christ back into God's fatherly heart.

40:54

See, we both give birth to the word, through the

40:56

activities of life itself.

40:58

Last thing, an identity, you talked

41:01

about, and Eckhart points to

41:03

this way we begin to

41:05

see everything as equal.

41:07

So Eckhart says, I'm trying to

41:09

talk about the person who encounters the same.

41:13

What a great statement. It is. So see,

41:16

as we move closer and closer to the ground

41:18

now, this is where... First of all, it's

41:21

equal in identity,

41:23

because everything are infinite variations

41:25

of this incarnate infinity

41:28

intimately realized. So this would be

41:30

a good way to

41:32

segue to the ground. And

41:35

I already started this by the quotes which I

41:37

gave, which you just referred to one. So

41:39

I want to go back over those quotes again, but make

41:42

them more explicit in

41:43

the ground. This is kind of the

41:46

movement from a state of consciousness

41:49

that Master Eckhart calls identity into

41:51

a state of consciousness where we break

41:54

through into the Godhead.

41:54

That's right, that's right.

41:56

So I want to go back and summarize this,

41:58

like this, make it more explicit.

41:59

because this is really the end, this is

42:02

this endless endpoint for

42:04

Eckhart is the Godhead. Well,

42:06

one way to say it is, is that,

42:08

and this sort of gets very subtle, you

42:11

know, because you have to sit with it and

42:13

reflect on it and so on, is

42:16

that by the Godhead,

42:19

and I referred to it as the abyss-like

42:21

depths of God, the

42:23

Godhead is prior to and

42:26

beyond the Trinity, and

42:28

really this is the apophatic way

42:30

of the infinite unknowability or

42:32

the infinite emptiness of God, because

42:34

this is God, because there's no distinctions

42:37

in the Godhead.

42:38

There is in the Trinity, distinction

42:40

and undistinction, and likewise

42:43

in the Godhead, there's no intentionality in

42:45

the Godhead. There's no divine

42:47

will in the Godhead. It's

42:49

like an infinite stillness or

42:52

an infinite void. It's very close to the

42:54

Buddhist understanding of emptiness, as

42:57

paradoxical, overflowing fullness.

43:01

So this infinite poverty of God, this

43:03

infinite emptiness, this impartable desert,

43:06

or this stillness, he says, is

43:09

poetically, he says, eternally in

43:11

motion, and this motion he calls

43:13

a balazio or a boiling, where

43:16

the infinite emptiness is manifested as the

43:18

Trinity.

43:19

And the Trinity, infinite

43:22

relations of knowledge and love and trans-subjective

43:25

communion. So intimacy

43:27

is the first manifestation of the unmanifested

43:30

mystery of God.

43:31

You said that the Godhead

43:34

is prior to and beyond

43:36

the Trinity, but then at the

43:38

same time, it's boiling

43:40

over, it's boiling

43:41

over. As the Trinity. As the Trinity. So

43:44

I see. So it

43:46

manifests. So it manifests

43:49

the Trinity as its first act of

43:50

creation. Exactly. So the

43:53

Godhead, which is really the ultimate

43:55

destiny of the ground of the mind, our homeland is not the Trinity. Like

43:57

it gets to a point where it's not the Trinity.

43:59

with the Trinity is not enough for us. They

44:03

were headed toward the Godhead, were headed toward this

44:05

infinite nothingness, is pregnant with

44:07

the Trinity, pregnant with the earth, pregnant.

44:10

So this infinite emptiness though, there's

44:12

no intentionality, but it gives itself as a Trinity.

44:15

So it's the ground of God, be

44:17

given as the Trinity. So it's not

44:19

like there's a Trinity and the ground. It's very

44:22

subtlest. It's like unfolding

44:25

dimensions of infinite boundarylessness,

44:28

beyond intentionality, but

44:30

then manifesting itself in the inter-divine

44:32

life of God as these divine relations,

44:35

which is this activity of love.

44:38

And by the way, we referred this earlier with Merton,

44:40

I think, and to understand

44:42

the persons of the Trinity,

44:44

is God the Father in the poetry

44:47

of this, God his mother, God his origin. That

44:49

God is eternally speaking

44:52

herself, speaking himself as the Logos

44:54

with the words of God eternally speaking,

44:57

the infinity of God as the word.

45:00

The word was with God and the word was

45:02

God. And

45:04

because God is infinitely giving the

45:06

infinity of God away as the

45:08

word,

45:10

it would mean if we would go looking for the Father,

45:13

that is in any way whatsoever, other than

45:15

the word, we'd never find the Father because

45:17

there is no Father. Because

45:19

the Father is infinitely giving the infinity

45:22

of held nothing back. And

45:24

likewise, if we'd go looking for the word, this

45:27

in any way whatsoever, that other than the Father,

45:29

we'd look and look and look. There is no

45:31

word. Because

45:33

God is the infinity of the

45:36

infinite generosity of God.

45:39

And there are oneness, they contemplate each

45:41

other. And the Holy Spirit is the love that

45:43

arises from that oneness. So

45:45

if we look for the Holy Spirit, there is

45:47

no Holy Spirit other than that. And

45:49

that's the trans-objective communion.

45:52

Distinction and non-distinction.

45:54

That's right. And so when Eckhart creates us,

45:57

we participate in that. When God

45:59

creates us. before God creates us, from all

46:01

eternity, see, in the beginning was

46:03

the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

46:06

was God, and all things were made

46:08

through him, and without him nothing

46:10

has been made. So, through all eternity,

46:13

see, stones and trees and stars, when God created

46:15

water, God didn't have to think up what

46:18

water might be. Through all eternity,

46:20

God is contemplating water in

46:22

the Word, since everything in God

46:25

is God, it's the divinity of water. So,

46:27

when God says, let there be water, the

46:29

water flows along. And so, in ego

46:32

consciousness, we don't see this, we just take a

46:34

drink of water, wash your hands. But

46:36

if we sit at the edge of the ocean, we're

46:39

like Carl

46:41

Jung, how can we claim the years of TARDIS

46:43

anything, if we haven't learned to listen to the secret

46:45

that whispers in the brooks? We get

46:47

intimations of the divinity of water,

46:50

when we gaze into the flames, when we

46:52

listen to silence like this. And

46:55

likewise, when God created you,

46:58

God didn't have to think up who you might be, through

47:01

all eternity. See, God eternally

47:03

contemplated you in the Word as the

47:05

Word. So, Eckhart

47:07

says, the amazing thing about a Word

47:10

is that when it goes out, it doesn't cease to be

47:12

what it is before it went out.

47:15

So, when I share with you what I might know about

47:17

my story, Eckhart,

47:18

my

47:21

knowledge of Eckhart doesn't cease to be because I

47:23

shared it with you. Likewise, although

47:25

we're being manifested by God now in this

47:27

moment, we're still infinitely who we

47:29

were before God created the universe.

47:33

And it's coming back full circle

47:35

to complete itself, back to our homeland.

47:39

And that's the idea of the way

47:41

we're the same, is that origin

47:44

and our destiny.

47:44

That's exactly right.

47:46

Everything's caught up in this

47:48

flowing circularity of this generosity.

47:52

It carries us along with itself.

47:54

And we learn to yike evil to it, go

47:56

with the flow and share it.

47:58

So Eckhart says then...

47:59

as this ripens

48:02

this oneness. He said

48:04

then it includes the world

48:06

because all things were made through him

48:08

as the divinity of water and stones and

48:10

trees and stars and

48:13

the smell of cinnamon and I mean whatever.

48:17

And then he says you realize that it's like a dance

48:19

with God ourselves and all

48:22

of creation holding hands in a

48:24

dance of infinite equality given

48:26

by God.

48:27

And you're so amazed,

48:29

see, like it came to this,

48:32

like jeez, like

48:34

this. And then see where

48:36

the Godhead starts, you say what could possibly

48:39

be the origin of such

48:41

wonderment. And now you begin to

48:43

think of the origin from whence

48:46

does this miraculous unfolding arise. And

48:48

not arising in the beginning, but it's an eternal

48:51

arising, giving us the eternal

48:53

origin, the

48:54

beginningless beginning. How

48:56

can I now trace my way back

48:59

to the origin?

49:01

And this is where he starts moving into the Godhead.

49:03

Wow. There was a statement

49:05

you made at the outset of detachment.

49:07

We did not expect this much. That's right.

49:10

It's beautiful. Yeah.

49:11

Because in the Godhead, you

49:14

look at this, it's like the rains fall

49:16

from our hands. The

49:18

rains fall from our hands as we

49:20

become one with the Godhead, this realization

49:22

of this eternal perpetual origin. And

49:25

this is why he says in

49:27

the one who's come to this realization,

49:30

goes back to the blacksmith

49:32

shop or some other trade,

49:35

knowing that eagerness, even mystical,

49:37

makes one forgetful. See, because

49:39

eagerness is a symptom that

49:42

everything isn't already infinitely present.

49:45

There's nothing to be eager for, because nothing's

49:47

missing. So you go back to the divinity,

49:50

the ordinariness of the unfolding of things,

49:53

you know,

49:54

intimately realized

49:56

in your heart. was

50:01

something new to me. Tell

50:03

us more about that. The insight is

50:05

that when I was studying medieval

50:08

philosophy, because so many were done, Scotus

50:10

and Aquinas,

50:11

too, it's very similar to with Eckhart.

50:15

Is it in a way then, Eckhart

50:17

sees, the love of creation is

50:19

greater than the love of redemption? Because

50:22

the love of redemption had a reason,

50:24

redemption.

50:25

Because there's no intentionality in the Godhead.

50:28

So there's no reason

50:31

for creation. It's the anarchy of

50:33

the ineffable.

50:34

See, it's an infinite anarchy.

50:37

He says, why does a horse run

50:39

all of its might across the field? It runs without

50:41

a why. Why does a rose bloom? It

50:44

blooms without a why. We should learn to live without

50:46

a why. Because the why

50:48

is trying to find our footing in circumstance.

50:51

Because a why would be a finite why. Like,

50:54

I think I'll write that down. I got a reference

50:56

point. But what if there's no reference points?

50:59

What if everything is the infinite generosity,

51:02

in the concreteness of everything,

51:04

as an intimate state? We

51:06

also gave the quote then where he says, you're sitting

51:09

still, you're

51:10

sitting in this stillness. God's

51:13

ground is my ground, and my ground is God's ground. So

51:15

the infinite, eternal stillness of the Godhead

51:18

is now, the infinite stillness

51:20

of me, not in principle or poetically,

51:24

but experientially. So by the stillness

51:26

within myself, the sun is moving across

51:28

the sky.

51:29

By the stillness within myself,

51:32

the rivers throughout the world are flowing. To

51:34

the stillness within myself, because I'm not

51:36

non-distinguished from. But

51:38

like Mary, like the swinging door, it

51:41

swings out into the flowing rivers, into

51:43

the passage of time. And

51:45

this is where Eckhart's trying to bring us to.

51:47

So it's like every experience of reality.

51:50

It's not just even our own life experience.

51:52

Exactly. This is why Thomas Burton says, as

51:54

long as you're still there to have an experience of God, you

51:57

can have one.

51:58

Just too in deep moments

52:01

of love, or deep moments

52:03

of surrender to beauty, we're not there

52:06

in reflective consciousness. And

52:09

in hindsight, it's the fullness of being

52:11

there. What's subtle about this for me

52:13

is that we come upon this

52:15

desire, you know, this desire

52:17

to follow a path like this, this

52:20

desire for this homecoming. And

52:22

it feels sometimes like the desire

52:24

is looking for a why, like, why am

52:26

I here? But where we end

52:29

is living without a why.

52:31

Yeah, that's a very nice point. I want to raise a question.

52:34

Martin Heidegger reflects

52:37

on this. There's this lovely passage in Heidegger, and

52:39

it's the front piece of Reiner Sherman's book

52:42

on, at least my edition, the

52:44

original edition, Nice for Eckhart. I don't know if it's

52:46

in Wandering, Joy.

52:48

It's so Eckhardian. And Eckhart had a deep

52:50

respect for Eckhart. Martin Heidegger,

52:53

the philosopher, Heidegger. Yes. Yes.

52:56

It seems easier than to let a being

52:58

be just the being that it is. Or

53:01

does this turn out to be the most difficult

53:03

of task? Particularly,

53:05

if such a project, to let

53:07

a being be as it is, represents

53:10

the opposite of the indifference, this

53:12

simply turns its back upon the being itself.

53:16

We must turn towards the being, think

53:18

about it in regard to its being. But

53:21

by such a thinking, at the same time, let

53:23

it rest in its own way to be. Never

53:25

notice when you're with someone that will

53:27

love you under the condition you measure up to what they

53:29

want you to be.

53:31

But when they just accept you where you are,

53:33

it sets you free to change.

53:35

So Eckhart, Martin Heidegger has a lovely

53:38

little book on introduction to metaphysics.

53:40

And he starts out by saying, Dan Walsh's

53:43

translation, see, why is there something

53:45

rather than nothing?

53:46

Like why the universe? Why? He

53:49

said, this question, Heidegger said, grazes our

53:51

heart in life's most fundamental

53:53

moments, in birth, in love, in

53:55

loss, in death. Why is there anything

53:58

at all? And you go,

53:59

wandering off across the property, leaning

54:02

up against trees, why is there anything? This

54:05

is philosophy.

54:06

And Dan Walsh says the real question

54:09

is why is there someone rather than no one and

54:11

I'm not someone?

54:12

Because of the anarchy of

54:14

the infinite generosity of God as

54:17

my life. And

54:19

so the Godhead has these kinds

54:21

of rich

54:23

poetic intimations

54:25

and it like they allude to it. And I think we've all

54:28

had intimations of these experiences. But

54:31

as the path deepens, they become more obituated

54:35

and to be lived and shared day by day,

54:38

which

54:38

is Eckhart's path. It's

54:40

interesting that when you come back,

54:43

you

54:44

come back to your work. You know, you come back to

54:47

this where we started with similarity, finding

54:49

that act and entering into it or the

54:51

acts that you are to perform

54:54

to do them in this way, in a

54:56

loving way. Because

54:58

you could think that without a why, like

55:00

why? Why would I bother with anything? That's

55:03

why

55:04

I just sit here and die. I mean, it's

55:09

not the kind of why that we look for in

55:11

our

55:13

egoic consciousness. It's a different

55:15

kind of quality. Yeah,

55:17

I would say two things. One, we start

55:19

somewhere and we start with a why. So

55:22

we get a taste of something.

55:25

And why is this elusive to me? How

55:27

could I... Though we pass

55:29

beyond the why, but we start somewhere. And

55:32

the other side of it is what you're referring

55:34

to, you know, in the rule of Saint Benedict, aura

55:36

et la bora, to pray and

55:39

to work so that daily labor

55:41

of the monk maintaining the monastery,

55:43

the growing the farm, whatever, isn't

55:46

a rude interruption to mystical union.

55:48

The labor itself

55:50

embodies mystical union because when you're

55:52

really given over to the work,

55:55

notice there's always an unfinished messy

55:57

piece of it, which is the concrete

55:59

of God, of

56:01

being a human being. Yeah.

56:04

Yeah. That's the part to come

56:06

back to, to the concreteness of our own

56:08

life. So what's interesting about this

56:10

path is whether you've

56:13

had the experience of the Godhead or not, the

56:15

way we live it out, the path of detachment,

56:18

it's the same way at every stage, this

56:21

desire to surrender, yield, accept.

56:24

It's true. Yeah. Beautiful.

56:27

The last question, the Godhead,

56:29

is that our destiny that when we

56:32

die, we'll return completely

56:35

to the Godhead? Yes. Let's

56:37

say

56:38

this, that what we're saying is that

56:41

when we pass through the veil of death, we'll

56:44

pass into the eternality

56:46

of this oneness with the Godhead, which

56:49

is our death, because it's already been given to us, but

56:52

then it'll be given to us in the full light of glory,

56:55

which will also embrace and include

56:57

the eternality of the

56:59

fleetingness of all that we were.

57:01

Our stories will still be there, we'll still

57:04

be there, but transcended and permeated

57:06

by the Godhead.

57:08

What Eckhart is saying is

57:10

that journey toward that Godhead that will live

57:12

in glory.

57:14

I go to prepare a place for you, Jesus

57:17

says, that wherever I am, you might also be the father

57:19

that they may be one, even as we are one.

57:23

Because it can start here,

57:25

and that's Eckhart's path.

57:27

As a matter of fact, all these mystics, each

57:30

one has his or her own unique way of this exactly

57:32

the same thing. We

57:34

don't necessarily have to wait until we're dead

57:37

to realize this unmediated

57:39

infinity of every breath and moment under

57:42

the condition that we're willing to die

57:45

to anything less than the infinite

57:47

love of God as the sole source of our security

57:50

and identity. And also to die

57:52

to try to actually figure out

57:54

how to do that,

57:55

because we can get attached to that. The

57:58

ego is always...

57:59

on to something that has to do first

58:02

so this can happen. Yes. But

58:04

it's possible to know that everything's already

58:06

unexplainably happening. And

58:08

through prayer and sincerity and love

58:10

and life, one can more and more. And I think

58:12

that's why we turn to the mystics for guidance. And

58:16

the very fact we're drawn to listen

58:18

to talk like this shows us we're already on

58:20

that path, where we wouldn't be drawn

58:22

to listen to talk like this.

58:24

So I'm feeling a little dizzy and overwhelmed. Do

58:26

you think I'm on the path? I do. I

58:30

actually do, actually, to be dizzy and overwhelmed.

58:35

Like I'm just in the midst of a beautiful

58:38

symphony that's taking me

58:40

over. I put it sometimes with myself. Back

58:42

in the good old days when I was holy, it was so clear.

58:46

But for quite some time now, I've become perplexed.

58:50

But perplexed is humility.

58:52

And humility is the door through which this

58:54

comes to us. I think it becomes

58:57

more and more intimately unexplainable

58:59

in all directions.

59:01

That's why I love that little quote. It says,

59:04

the fact when Eckhart preached, the

59:06

fact his clothing was full of holes. It just

59:08

was the fire that consumed him.

59:11

That conflict turns to paradox

59:14

and it last invites silence. Everything,

59:18

there's nothing to say. You know, it's just

59:20

everything's unexplainably self-evident.

59:22

When we were getting ready today, Corey

59:24

was talking about the Marvel universe and

59:27

how now they're going into these alternate

59:29

realities to

59:30

bring back superheroes. Anyway, I think

59:32

if you wanted a second career, you could

59:35

write scripts for... I

59:37

thought

59:37

of that, actually, of writing a mystical comic

59:40

book. Oh, yeah. And by the

59:42

way, this is Joseph Campbell's point, too.

59:44

The power of Star Wars and

59:47

Lord of the Rings is more explicit

59:49

than Lord of the Rings. It's

59:51

that it's veiled, oblique

59:54

innuendos of this very thing that we're talking

59:56

about. Yeah, yeah. Meaning, like

59:58

mythic dimensions of... meaning to

1:00:00

the power of stories. And

1:00:03

meaning is. I don't know if

1:00:05

you can remember, there was a prayer you

1:00:08

cited earlier and I was hoping we could

1:00:10

end on it, but I didn't write it all down. It

1:00:12

started with, for all

1:00:15

that. Oh yes, I have it. I

1:00:17

know it by heart. Dag Hammarskjold

1:00:19

was head of the United Nations.

1:00:21

So he's like a mystic, a

1:00:23

political leader,

1:00:25

contemplate like the leadership of the Tao.

1:00:28

And his little prayer was, in his book,

1:00:30

Markings, which is like his journal. For

1:00:33

all that has been, thank you. For

1:00:36

all that will be, yes.

1:00:37

What a beautiful way to end. Thank you

1:00:40

so much, Jim. You're very welcome. Thanks

1:00:42

for the dialogue. I think it really helped bring

1:00:44

this out. I think it'll help the listeners. Oh

1:00:46

good, I hope so.

1:00:50

Thank you for listening to this episode of Turning

1:00:52

to the Mystics, a podcast

1:00:54

created by the Center for Action and Consumplation.

1:00:58

We're planning to do episodes that answer your questions.

1:01:01

So if you have a question, please email

1:01:03

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or send us a voicemail. All

1:01:09

of this information can be found in the show

1:01:11

notes. We'll see you again soon.

1:01:15

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