0:04

In today's conversation , we're going to dig deeper

0:06

into the complex role of fire in

0:08

our forests , acknowledging

0:10

its sacredness and ancestral

0:13

connections . Fire

0:15

holds deep significance in many cultures

0:17

, symbolizing both destruction

0:20

and renewal , and life and

0:22

death , and

0:28

renewal and life and death . We'll explore how ancient wisdom intersects with modern

0:30

science as we discuss the practice of prescribed fires , or also

0:32

called controlled burns , a

0:35

method rooted in traditional knowledge

0:37

and adapted for contemporary

0:39

forest management . There

0:42

is a delicate balance of harnessing

0:44

the power of fire to protect our lands

0:46

, and we're going to explore the

0:48

benefits of good fire that

0:51

was a term that I learned in this conversation

0:53

and we're going to see its importance

0:56

in shaping and protecting the

0:58

ecosystems

1:16

. Hi

1:19

everybody , we are with Dana Page again

1:22

, who is a San Francisco Bay Area

1:24

wildlife biologist , and today

1:26

we're talking about a subject that I actually

1:28

really didn't know much about . It was Dana's

1:31

suggestion , but I thought , oh , let's check

1:33

this out . Prescribed fires

1:35

, or they're also called controlled

1:37

burns , and I know that

1:39

fire might be a sensitive topic

1:41

, particularly in California

1:44

, with several years of tremendous fire seasons

1:46

. Dana's going to help us weed

1:48

through the good , the bad and the ugly if

1:51

there is any ugly about

1:53

controlled burns . Welcome , Dana . Thanks

1:55

for joining us again today . Thank

1:57

you , Vanessa .

1:58

Pleasure to be here and talk about a very

2:00

timely topic . And talk about a very timely

2:03

topic .

2:04

Excellent , excellent . So I

2:07

think I know what a controlled burn

2:09

is , but

2:12

the more I read about the topic in preparation for our conversation , the

2:14

more I learned that it's not necessarily

2:16

a negative practice . You know

2:18

, fire , fire . You know everybody thinks about

2:20

fire , which I and I think , because

2:23

a lot of people think that we're setting the

2:25

forest on fire or some natural habitat

2:27

, and that sounds kind of scary . So

2:30

, dana , let's start with , I think , the

2:32

big question what is a prescribed

2:35

fire or a controlled burn

2:37

?

2:38

Yeah , you can . You can call it either

2:40

controlled burn , prescribed

2:42

um , but

2:45

they are fire

2:47

that are it's fire that is planned

2:49

okay . So , specifically

2:52

here in the san francisco bay , land

2:55

management agencies has have

2:57

realized that fire is

3:00

crucial and good fire is crucial

3:02

. So a lot of people are trying to put

3:04

good fire in front of the

3:06

name fire , because they're changing

3:08

yeah , not just to change that perception

3:10

. And not all fire is bad , got

3:13

it , they're obviously . Recently

3:15

here in the bay area

3:17

with the lightning storms we had

3:19

some catastrophic fires

3:21

that burned down people's homes and

3:23

were very devastating

3:26

. So instead of interpreting fire

3:28

as being bad and catastrophic , there

3:30

are also good fires . So

3:32

a controlled fire , prescribed fire , is

3:34

a fire that's planned , planned

3:37

with land management agencies , with

3:40

fire agencies , various

3:42

fire agencies . You could have county

3:44

fire , city fires , cal

3:47

Fire , but Cal Fire is kind of the big player

3:49

and more of the larger

3:51

landscape here in California . But

3:54

you have federal agencies that also

3:56

do fire .

3:57

Do you ?

3:58

guys do all this together . Generally

4:00

it is something that's done together . So

4:02

we , most

4:05

land agencies , would not have

4:07

a fire or don't have the equipment

4:09

, so it's having the crews

4:11

there . You need bodies that

4:13

are patrolling the perimeter , people that

4:15

are starting the fire . There's a whole chain

4:17

of command that happens and you

4:19

need multiple engines

4:22

and everything is designed

4:25

and set up to be successful and

4:27

safe and safe exactly so

4:29

. The , the temperature

4:32

variations , the weather , all

4:35

of this is considered in

4:37

the location before a fire takes

4:39

place , a prescribed fire , and

4:42

so they are events that are

4:44

planned and controlled . They

4:47

have a prescription . That's why you might hear prescribed

4:50

. So there might be some objectives

4:52

in this prescribed fire

4:54

, such as burning

4:56

non-native plants , shrubs

4:59

. So that's why you might hear , you

5:01

know a fire prescription , which

5:03

also relates to the weather . So

5:06

you have to be within a prescription of

5:08

if it's too hot , we're not going to burn . If

5:10

the humidity is too low , there

5:12

will be no burning . If the wind gets above

5:14

a certain temperature , there will also be

5:16

no burning . So fire

5:18

science is used , a

5:20

lot of experts and time

5:23

goes into planning these events . A

5:27

lot of experts and time goes into planning these events , and sometimes you plan them

5:29

. And then the day comes and the day is not right , so it could be

5:31

too hot , it could be too windy . Sometimes

5:34

you have to cancel . So also

5:36

, things are not flammable

5:38

all times of the year . Right after

5:41

it rains , when it's wet , you're

5:43

not going to get green grass to burn

5:45

. So , really , timing your

5:47

event for what your objective is . But

5:50

they are . They're controlled and well

5:52

thought out , and until I was

5:54

actively on one of these myself

5:56

, it scared me also . But

5:59

once I started participating and

6:01

seeing the thought that goes into it and

6:04

the methodical planning

6:06

in how

6:08

everything is designed , you

6:11

actually don't even have to put the fire out

6:13

. The fire puts itself out the way

6:15

that it's designed Really , and so

6:17

you're using wind direction with

6:20

that . So if the wind's coming a

6:22

certain direction , there's backing

6:24

fires that go into the wind that are

6:27

nice and slow . So it's

6:29

described a lot of times as a catcher's

6:31

mitt , right , and so

6:33

think about a catcher's

6:35

mitt . One

6:38

side of where you're trying to burn is

6:40

the mitt where the fire's

6:42

going to go into . Oh , okay , and then that's where

6:45

it will stop . But the , the catcher's

6:47

mitt , is basically burned

6:49

fuel prior to

6:51

the big burn . So then it's

6:54

. It's hard to describe in words . It's easier

6:56

to see , but you will get

6:59

your area . You want the fire to

7:01

go all blocked out and burn

7:03

safely , and then you can ignite the

7:05

other side and let the wind do the

7:07

rest of the work , and by the time the fire

7:09

travels to the far end that

7:11

you've already designed this

7:13

mitt .

7:14

There's nothing out and the fire will literally

7:16

put itself out so all

7:18

along the way , then there's people

7:20

there making sure that it

7:22

doesn't get out of that designated , designated

7:25

area yeah , so there's holding you

7:28

.

7:28

Those people are called the holding crews

7:30

. Okay , so generally you have little

7:33

units of crews

7:35

on the outside of the perimeter

7:38

where the fire is and they have backpack

7:40

pumps and they might have an engine

7:42

with 150 gallons , there

7:44

might be 700 . So there's water . Our

7:46

water sources are all planned . We

7:48

know where to refill up . When

7:50

one becomes empty , there's another one

7:53

to fill its place while that one fills up

7:55

. So everything is is very strategic

7:57

. On these controlled burns wow I

8:00

had no idea .

8:01

So it's not just random , just

8:04

random . It's not somebody just throwing a match

8:06

going okay , let's see what happens .

8:07

Yeah , yeah , and it took me a little time to

8:09

become comfortable and get mentored , because

8:12

you think fire .

8:13

you know , everybody thinks fire is as

8:15

so negative , but it's not

8:17

.

8:17

Yeah , but there is good use

8:20

of fire and you

8:22

can get lots of acreage and

8:24

lots of vegetation management in

8:26

a large area for relatively

8:29

cheap right . Think about if you

8:31

had to go mow 500 acres

8:33

. How long would it take you to mow 500

8:36

acres versus what is it going to take

8:38

you to burn 500 acres less

8:40

than a day ?

8:42

So I read that using

8:45

. So I know we're jumping around , but we'll get

8:47

. Let me just say this I had

8:49

read that using fire to do something

8:51

like , like you know , burn an

8:54

area like that is actually

8:56

better for the land , because

8:58

the ash then from the vegetation feeds

9:01

the land , where if it's just cut

9:03

cut it may take a long time

9:05

years to actually decompose and feed the land

9:07

. So it's actually a quicker way of of

9:09

giving the land more

9:12

nutrients .

9:12

Yeah , and there's all sorts of stuff going

9:14

on with that um on

9:16

large forest

9:19

management projects which we might

9:21

go into if you in a little bit

9:23

, there's these

9:25

biochar machines that will

9:27

take the trees and the vegetation

9:29

that you burn and turn it into biochar

9:31

that can then be spread and left in the

9:33

area . And what does that do ? Brings

9:36

that nutrients and back

9:38

. It's not charcoal , no , so it's

9:40

biochar . I'm not exactly

9:42

sure what differentiates charcoal

9:44

from it's like bioav'm not exactly sure what differentiates charcoal from it's like bio available

9:47

or charcoal isn't . But something about

9:49

how the biochar is created

9:51

. It's carbon , yeah , it's something about the

9:53

carbon , and so the carbon

9:55

is actually put back into that soil

9:58

, into that habitat .

9:59

Wow , all right

10:01

. So who

10:05

picks the areas that , I guess ? Why

10:07

? Why certain areas , and who

10:10

? Who's in charge of picking those ?

10:12

It's pretty much up to

10:15

the land management agencies and

10:19

and the agencies I

10:21

have worked for

10:23

, generally they have agreements

10:26

with the local fire agency . Okay

10:28

, so there's a thing

10:30

called a vegetation management program

10:33

and it's an agreement with

10:35

CAL FIRE that everything

10:37

gets set up . So not only

10:40

are the prescribed control

10:42

fires planned to detail

10:44

for the day of the event , but

10:46

this very large , extensive document

10:49

was prepared with

10:51

the environmental scientist and the archaeologist

10:53

and everybody within

10:56

cal fires and within the agency

10:58

, and that

11:00

document outlines um

11:02

all of our objectives

11:04

and goals on paper and

11:06

then generally has a map of the areas

11:09

that it's been agreed upon can

11:11

be burned , and

11:13

so you have , you know , areas

11:15

within the land that you own that are already

11:17

designated , and so we have all

11:20

of our compliance , environmental

11:22

compliance , within these documents

11:25

also . So anywhere that we , that

11:27

people would burn or are going to burn

11:29

, there's been thorough study of

11:32

wildlife and habitat and sequas

11:35

and environmental impact reports

11:37

and archaeologists , yeah , and so

11:39

we . Uh , a huge thing

11:42

with fire is um cultural

11:44

sites . You know where

11:47

artifacts might be , and so we

11:49

obviously avoid that . There's a lot of burials

11:51

on public lands , within

11:53

parks that you

11:55

know . There's a lot of people that are into that , so that

11:58

information is kept silent

12:00

where burial sites are . But

12:03

that's all mapped out in these larger documents

12:05

and then for the agencies to have and

12:07

then and then respected for as part

12:09

of this . So you know we will

12:11

still burn above those areas

12:14

. But then it's understood like um

12:16

, you know there's

12:19

control lines and hand lines that

12:21

get put in with tools . So

12:23

then there's the , you know , top layer

12:25

or whatever layer of the earth might

12:27

be disturbed . So then if

12:30

within one of our control sites

12:32

we know there's an archaeological site

12:34

, everyone at the briefing in the beginning

12:37

of the day will be notified that , like

12:39

no , you know , no , uh

12:42

, you cannot break any earth or any ground within

12:44

this area , and it all gets flagged

12:46

and avoided . Wow , wow

12:48

, that's cool , yeah . So , wow , the

12:50

control burn is very planned day of

12:52

, and then there's many years of planning that go

12:54

into having an agreement with

12:56

the fire agency to ensure

12:59

that everything is

13:01

written down on paper and agreed upon prior

13:03

to these events happening . So , which

13:05

can be bureaucratic , and it took us , uh

13:08

, it takes people , it takes agencies a long time

13:10

to to get the permitting . Where I know there's

13:12

some other , uh , land

13:15

management agencies in the region that

13:17

had fire programs and then they stopped

13:19

them . So then you're , you're

13:21

kind of not valid anymore and you have to reestablish

13:24

all of these things and it can be

13:27

a very lengthy bureaucratic process

13:29

.

13:29

Interesting . So why

13:32

? Why are we doing this ? Why

13:34

are we burning ? Why are we setting things on fire

13:36

? On purpose ?

13:41

As a biologist and

13:43

resource manager , my objective

13:45

is ecological Okay , and

13:49

so generally it's to

13:51

enhance the habitat , to

13:53

promote the native . So a lot of the native

13:55

plants that you would find in California are

13:58

adapted to fire . They want

14:00

fire , they need fire . We'll

14:02

manage invasive species um

14:05

through fire . So yellow

14:07

star thistle , thistles , um

14:09

try to burn it to get rid of the seed

14:12

so that it will not spread

14:14

, but then hopefully the native plants because

14:16

it's more sensitive .

14:17

So a lot of these invasive species are

14:19

more sensitive to fire . Yeah

14:21

, yes , yes , okay , so fire then

14:23

can eliminate them . So

14:27

what's the deal with invasive species

14:29

? What's the problem there ?

14:32

Over my many years of work I've tried

14:34

to make A

14:37

very concise statement about

14:39

because I've led

14:42

guided hikes and you teach

14:44

people and you say this is invasive and this

14:46

is native . But they're like it's

14:49

like it's pretty Well , what's the point ? So the

14:51

best analogy that I

14:53

have that I think everybody can understand

14:56

is think

14:59

of an ecosystem as your car Right

15:01

and so ecosystem as your car right and so everyone

15:03

has your car . You have to maintain your

15:06

car With all the

15:08

dog hair , but I'm thinking of the engine and

15:10

how your car runs but

15:14

you're not going to get your dog in the car or go anywhere if your car's not running

15:16

. So think about the

15:18

oil you have to put , the gas you

15:20

have to put into your car . And

15:22

like what if you put diesel into

15:25

a gas engine ? Yeah

15:27

, problems , you have problems . So if you

15:29

put a lot of diesel into

15:31

a gas engine , like , then you have to

15:33

fix that . So whether you're putting the wrong

15:36

oil or the wrong fluids or the wrong

15:38

spaces , like , your car is still going

15:40

to function . I mean , if you it's , this is the closest

15:42

analogy I've your car is still going to function . I mean , if you it's , this is the closest analogy

15:44

.

15:44

I've gotten Okay , okay Right .

15:46

But then it's , if you put um

15:49

, some , you know the wrong fluids

15:51

in your car is still going to work , but

15:53

is it going to work good , and is it

15:55

going to work for 20 years or

15:57

is it going to work for five years ? So another analogy

16:00

could also be your body right and how

16:02

you feed and fuel your body so you

16:04

could eat vegetables

16:07

and things

16:09

that are healthy for you , that are natural for you

16:11

, or you could eat McDonald's or

16:13

fast food every day , so

16:16

how this then applies to that talking

16:19

about invasives is you're

16:21

just getting a smaller return . So your

16:23

life expectancy would be less if you weren't

16:25

eating the correct food and you would have

16:28

health problems . So

16:31

the land starts to get sick and degraded

16:33

. And so , how the land would naturally

16:36

function on something healthy , it's

16:38

still functioning because it's not like an invasive

16:41

plant is ruining the land . Right

16:43

, there's still insects going

16:45

up for pollination . Um

16:47

, there's still animals eating it , all

16:50

these things . So it's not like the ecosystem

16:52

is completely failing because

16:54

of these invasives , but it's just not running

16:57

, it's not thriving , it's not thriving as

16:59

it could . And then all

17:01

the things that are connected to that , specifically

17:04

plants and that soil , right

17:07

. So then , uh , the the

17:09

butterfly might be getting nectar , but maybe

17:11

it's not the right kind of nectar . So

17:13

then that butterflies

17:15

having less babies are not enough

17:17

energy . So , um , when you're putting

17:20

in the wrong food in your body , the wrong

17:22

, taking wrong care of your car , you're not getting

17:24

the life expectancy and it's not

17:26

thriving . The same way , that will happen to

17:28

an ecosystem . That's a good analogy . Okay

17:31

, got it , that's a good analogy , right ? So it's not

17:33

like you're going to die if you

17:35

eat McDonald's , right ? Or fast

17:37

food or bad food , but it's

17:40

definitely not

17:42

making you the best that you could be , to your

17:44

fullest potential .

17:46

So fire , then , is used

17:48

to remove invasive species .

17:51

Invasive species , but

17:54

also , as a lot of people know

17:56

, fire is a natural adaptation

18:00

of the habitats found in California

18:03

.

18:04

What do you ?

18:05

mean by that . So before

18:07

humans existed , there

18:10

would have been lightning strikes , there would have been fires

18:12

, and they would have burned for thousands

18:15

and thousands of acres until they

18:17

put themselves out . Okay , they put themselves out , okay . So

18:19

a lot of the the plants that you see

18:21

, um , want

18:24

fire . So these habitats have evolved

18:26

to have a regular disturbance

18:28

regime of fire and

18:31

then , once you put humans into having

18:34

homes and being permanently

18:36

here and stopping fire now

18:38

we're preventing all these ecosystems that once

18:40

, in whatever that regular

18:43

interval , they would see fire . They

18:45

then no longer see fire . Fire

18:48

is a natural occurrence . Yes

18:50

, so fire is a natural occurrence that

18:52

we have suppressed

18:54

due to fear of catastrophic fires

18:57

and fires burning our homes , and

19:00

so we've suppressed it . But it is something

19:02

that should naturally be happening at

19:04

varying intervals depending on a

19:06

habitat .

19:08

So I think that takes me to what

19:11

I learned about today , about

19:14

cultural fire and

19:17

fire that's been used by indigenous

19:19

peoples around the world for millennia

19:21

to manage the land and , in turn

19:24

, protect it from devastating wildfires . And

19:27

these communities view

19:29

fire as sacred and a powerful

19:31

element used in ceremony

19:34

, community protection and

19:37

sustaining diverse plant and animal life . And

19:42

sustaining diverse plant and animal life and you know the same kind

19:44

of things . It reduced

19:46

invasive species , it promoted

19:48

the ecosystem and it

19:51

supported wildlife , food and

19:53

medicinal plants . So

20:00

I know that indigenous peoples

20:02

around the globe have always used fire as one of their sacred

20:04

tools to walk through the earth ?

20:06

Yeah , exactly , but

20:08

I think they and

20:11

I am saying

20:13

this not in fact , but

20:16

I'm assuming they begun

20:18

to use fire in their regular

20:20

life as an observation of seeing it

20:22

happen naturally . Yes , right , so

20:24

I don't think one day somebody

20:26

woke up and was like , oh , we need to burn

20:28

that . Just through hundreds

20:31

and thousands of years of being on that landscape

20:33

, landscape and learning from their ancestors

20:35

who saw a natural fire start

20:38

because fire is natural

20:40

and there would be lightning strikes that

20:42

would start fire and then that

20:44

fire would burn so I'm sure , through their observations

20:47

of seeing these natural fires , they

20:49

then began to learn that it's

20:51

a way that they could manage . And the only

20:53

thing , um , with what

20:55

you said about the burning is

20:58

I don't know how many invasive species

21:00

there would have been , historically right . So

21:02

invasive species is kind

21:04

of a new thing oh yes , because once

21:06

there was European movement

21:08

around the globe , that's when invasives came

21:10

, so they probably , you

21:13

know , didn't have too many species they were

21:15

unfamiliar with Understand , of course , like we do

21:17

now , which is , you know , one of our

21:19

main objectives for using fire good

21:22

fire last hundred years or

21:24

so .

21:24

My understanding too is

21:27

that a lot

21:29

of the indigenous people

21:32

were no

21:44

longer allowed to use cultural fire

21:46

and it kind

21:48

of changed the landscape of a lot of the

21:50

forests and a lot of the habitats . And

21:53

can

21:55

you explain that a little bit ? What kind

21:57

of then started ? You know whether it's the undergrowth

21:59

or yeah .

22:00

So and I think now , one of the objectives

22:03

of prescribed fire , controlled fire

22:05

, good fire , is to reduce the

22:08

fuels that are overabundant

22:11

, that have a lot to do with just

22:13

what we thought were the appropriate

22:15

land management practices . So

22:18

you know , um the environmental

22:20

movement and not cutting down

22:22

forest because we thought it was bad to

22:24

do forestry one . You know

22:26

, some level of managing the forest

22:28

is necessary if we're not

22:31

going to allow fire or or allow

22:33

anything . So I

22:35

think the uh

22:38

, we are beginning to understand that

22:40

um allowing

22:42

um these native people back

22:44

onto their lands to be allowed

22:47

to do these things as necessary . There's a lot

22:49

of agencies that are allowing

22:51

them to do cultural burns , um

22:53

I understand they're working hand in hand now .

22:56

Yes , yes , more so than ever . Then . More

22:58

so than ever .

22:59

Yeah , more so than ever but , but there's still a lot of

23:01

constraints as

23:03

far as American modern

23:05

ideals on having

23:07

someone to be

23:09

federally recognized as a tribe

23:11

and what does that mean ? And these are all

23:14

parameters that we , as

23:16

outsiders , have put on them Right

23:18

, have

23:24

put on them right . So , um , I see a huge movement in pushing

23:27

towards um , having the participation of natives

23:29

in these burns and using the um traditional

23:32

ecosystem knowledge that they have

23:34

to manage these landscapes , um

23:38

, but there's still a lot of bureaucratic

23:40

and political things

23:42

that are preventing these relationships

23:44

from flourishing . So

23:47

I hope it's coming . It's coming

23:49

. Yes , we want political . Yeah

23:52

, we're on a precipice of that

23:55

era coming , but it's

23:57

slow and steady and it's got to be at

24:00

this . You know , as Americans

24:02

, in our culture , it's kind of we want

24:04

things quick and

24:07

things to happen fast . But , as

24:09

it was explained to me by an elder , we have

24:11

to do it at the tribal pace and it might

24:13

not be at the same pace , which is

24:15

different . Even a slow you

24:17

know , bureaucracies pace might be

24:19

, might be faster than the tribal

24:21

pace . Interesting .

24:34

But going back to those types of

24:36

practices then , whether it's a more

24:39

ancient practice that I know

24:41

that the organizations you're

24:43

talking about now are using as well , you're

24:46

talking . Tell me what you're

24:48

removing when you do a . Besides

24:50

invasive species . I saw a diagram

24:52

that was talking about a

24:55

heavier forest , you know , with the big trees , the big

24:57

timber , and they

24:59

did a burn underneath and

25:01

it got all the little stuff off the bottom

25:04

. It didn't burn the trees and

25:06

it actually it was all about protecting

25:08

the roots as well of these ancient

25:11

trees , but it didn't . So tell

25:13

me about that , because that that

25:15

to me looks like a way of to manage

25:18

these big fires when

25:20

you have a lightning strike , for example a

25:22

way of to manage these big fires , yes , when you have a lightning strike

25:24

, for example , exactly , and so that's that's a

25:27

big thing .

25:28

Is um , locally here , uh , within

25:30

the santa cruz mountains , it was logged

25:32

right and so at one point

25:34

, logging and logging is not

25:36

bad , there's a sustainable and

25:39

good way to log . But

25:41

I think , um , at you know

25:43

, whatever point , when the majority of the santa

25:45

cruz mountains was logged , there was clear cuts

25:47

. Ah , that's different and that's different

25:49

. There's like clear cutting , there's unhealthy

25:52

logging and forest management

25:54

and there's healthy forest management . But at

25:57

that time people didn't know and it was just like , hey

25:59

, I can get money for all these redwood

26:01

trees , so let's remove all

26:04

these redwoods , which has changed completely

26:06

. There's

26:08

some very great foresters out

26:10

there Got it . The whole forestry

26:12

has completely changed from what

26:14

it was . In logging operations , awesome

26:17

Can happen in a sustainable way . And

26:19

after these larger fires

26:21

we're realizing , if you look at um

26:23

the santa cruz mountains and the fires that

26:25

happened , the areas that were logged

26:28

had less intense fires than

26:30

the areas that were not logged okay , because

26:32

they're logging them and managing them

26:34

actively where a lot of the protected

26:36

lands and private lands um

26:38

, you know , it's kind of been um

26:41

part of the smoky

26:43

bear era we're gonna talk

26:45

about smoking the bear here . Yeah , wait

26:47

, let's finish that .

26:48

One thought though um

26:51

, about , about

26:53

the burning of the underneath yeah , so

26:55

, um , they call those ladder fuels

26:58

.

26:58

Oh , okay , and so when you study , uh

27:01

, fire science and

27:03

fire ecology , a stick

27:05

and grass grass

27:07

is an hour uh , you know there's

27:09

different times it would take that to burn . So

27:11

think about how quick a blade

27:14

of grass would catch on fire versus

27:16

a twig , versus a sapling

27:18

, versus a bush , versus

27:21

a hundred year old redwood tree

27:23

. Okay , so if you took a lighter up to

27:25

a blade of grass , it

27:27

would ignite . Yeah , if you

27:29

would bring a lighter up to a twig

27:31

, it would take you some time

27:33

, but if it was dry it would ignite

27:35

pretty quick . But could you go up

27:37

to a hundred year old redwood tree

27:39

and get it to ignite with your lighter ? Probably

27:42

not , I hope

27:44

not . So

27:58

what you're talking about with you know , 50-year-old

28:01

, whatever kind of tree chances are

28:03

, then the fire is going to be so

28:05

intense near and around that

28:07

tree that then that tree will ignite . Oh , so

28:09

then it goes up the ladder . So then it goes up the trees

28:12

and then it'll get into the canopy

28:14

of the forest and then you have what they call

28:16

crown fires . And then

28:18

those are what is catastrophic Not

28:21

necessarily for redwoods , because redwoods

28:23

are very adapted to fire and

28:26

they can grow back from fire

28:28

. But you know , if you torch a tree

28:31

all the way to the top , it's going to

28:33

die a lot of them . But if

28:35

just some of it burned along the outside

28:37

and maybe a little bit of the lichen

28:39

and the moss or a few of

28:41

the lower branches , that tree is going to survive

28:44

. So the idea behind that land

28:46

management is getting rid of those

28:48

lighter , lighter fuels that are going

28:50

to create a larger catastrophic fire

28:53

.

28:54

So that's how they manage and

28:56

protect them .

28:58

So again , through controlled burns

29:00

, yes , I mean there's a lot

29:02

of you , there's

29:06

a lot that would have to go in before just burning

29:09

that stuff . But a lot of the forest

29:11

health projects happening locally is

29:13

paying contractors and people to come in and

29:15

masticate and remove those lighter

29:18

fuels , and so also people that

29:20

live in these communities around

29:22

this forest are beginning to learn . A lot of people wanted

29:24

screening and privacy , but now

29:26

they're realizing that having those bushes is

29:29

just kind of putting them in danger . It's fuel

29:31

.

29:31

Got it . Got it , okay , interesting

29:34

, all right . So I think we

29:36

understand why . Why now

29:38

we're seeing the really positive effects of controlled

29:41

burns , from

29:45

land restoration , returning the nutrients

29:47

to the ground , destroying

29:49

invasive native plants , and

29:53

then , I think you mentioned , to certain plants

29:55

, especially in environments

29:57

, I think , around the globe , that

30:00

have natural fire

30:02

. I know everywhere has natural fires , but

30:04

, like you said , california

30:07

plants were adapted to it because it's kind

30:09

of part of the makeup of the

30:11

landscape , landscape here . So certain plants

30:13

, though , need fire right in order

30:15

to disperse their seeds . Is that correct

30:17

?

30:18

yeah , I mean , I think a lot of that

30:20

is like pine forest . Yes , the

30:22

pine , the pine the pine

30:24

family . In order for that cone to open

30:26

and distribute that seed needs fire

30:28

. But yeah , I think in general , like

30:30

a lot of the chaparral habitats that

30:33

you see up and around

30:35

the mountains around here , are also very

30:37

adapted to fire as well .

30:40

So okay , so removing the use

30:45

of cultural fire over the years . And

30:48

then I don't know when this guy

30:51

was introduced , but

30:54

you know , we all grew up with Smokey the Bear

30:56

and

30:58

we laughed , you guys , because

31:01

we both , when we said Smokey the Bear

31:03

, Dana was like oh yeah

31:05

, you know . And a friend of mine told me

31:07

too that Smokey was a problem , you know

31:09

, but he had . I think

31:11

the intentions were good , obviously

31:14

, but smoky the bear did a really good job

31:16

, didn't he ?

31:17

he did and so I think that's

31:19

um . It was

31:21

1944 . 1944

31:24

, smoky was introduced . Yeah , so

31:27

the creation of smoky the bear was

31:29

authorized by the Forest Service . And

31:31

it was about preventing forest

31:34

fires and it was because you do see a

31:36

lot of fires that are man

31:39

induced . Oh , campers .

31:41

Maybe campers by accident , so accident

31:43

.

31:43

A lot of the fires you see locally is

31:45

people mowing during

31:48

a hot day because they want to get rid of the

31:50

grass . Right , that's a big mistake people do

31:53

. The days start getting hot and you think

31:55

, man , I haven't mowed my dry grass

31:57

. So they go out and mow their dry grass

31:59

and then a spark ignites and the humidity

32:01

is low and the temperature is high and then

32:03

a fire starts .

32:04

All the right things .

32:05

All the right things , but it's funny because

32:08

it's pretty counterintuitive . Somebody

32:10

went outside to prevent fire , but

32:12

then started the fire

32:14

. So so , yeah , I think that was the whole initiative

32:17

of Smokey the Bear right Put

32:19

out your forest fire and have better management

32:22

practices when you're out in the forest from 1944

32:24

. But they did such a good job and

32:27

it's such a creative and friendly

32:30

way to approach this topic

32:32

that it was super successful

32:35

and in turn , kind of and

32:37

in turn it uh made everyone

32:39

think that fire had to be stopped and

32:41

prevented and , um

32:43

, you know , maybe it

32:46

gave fire that perception of being bad

32:48

right , so smoky the bear says

32:50

only you can prevent forest

32:52

fires that's yeah , and

32:54

did a good job . Yeah , did

32:56

a good job did a good job . So it's pretty

32:58

interesting to see how something that

33:01

was maybe a safety thing I feel like snowballed

33:04

into this huge cultural perception

33:06

of fire being a bat being bad

33:08

and wanting to stop it . And

33:11

I was having an interesting conversation with

33:14

someone the other day

33:16

about control . Like

33:18

, obviously we're having controlled , prescribed

33:20

fires , but then we do have forest

33:23

fires that are start naturally or unnaturally

33:25

, and in

33:27

places like California and within some

33:30

fire agencies , your immediate

33:32

response is to stop

33:34

the fire , right , like , oh

33:36

no , there's a fire , we've got to put

33:38

the fire out . And so a

33:40

lot of the tactics that are used to put

33:42

out fire is bulldozer

33:44

equipment , is flame

33:46

retardants from aircraft . Right

33:49

, that's the . You see the thing dropping ? Yeah

33:51

, that they drop . I mean they are dropping water , but

33:53

sometimes there's flame retardant . So a

33:55

lot of people go straight to suppression . Oh

33:58

no , there's a fire , let's suppress it

34:00

. But then you look at some other agencies

34:02

and it's more federal agencies

34:05

where it's like then the

34:07

one interesting thing that I learned

34:09

being trained in fire stuff

34:11

was you

34:13

don't fight a fire head on

34:15

, right , if there's a huge fire

34:17

coming at you , you're stupid to

34:19

think that you can put it out with

34:21

your the water , that the trunk

34:23

in your engine or that you have right . So

34:25

a lot of what you learn is how to strategically

34:28

fight the fire where you can win

34:31

. So you would never , uh

34:33

, fight a fire head on , um

34:35

, you know . So a lot of times they'll then doze

34:38

a line a mile , two miles

34:40

in a contingency , or

34:42

you know they're gonna , they're gonna , bulldoze

34:45

ahead and get rid of that vegetation . So then when that

34:47

fire front comes , it will stop

34:49

it . But then like the catcher's mitt . like the

34:51

catcher's mitt . Like the catcher's mitt , but quickly

34:53

, and you can do backburning also

34:55

as a catcher's mitt , which is

34:57

probably preferable , but then sometimes

35:00

people will come in with a bulldozer . And

35:02

as a biologist and land manager

35:04

, then you have all this excavated

35:07

, moved dirt for many miles

35:09

that causes ecological problems , so

35:12

like . But we're on this here , we're

35:14

on this like suppression bulldoze , stop

35:17

it where . If you look at the uh

35:19

forest service now and blm

35:21

, they'll let that fire go

35:23

right and so

35:25

they're not so much worried , but they do have more

35:27

acreage and probably less homes right

35:29

, right to worry about , but um

35:31

, and why are they letting it go ? for the reasons

35:34

that we're talking about well , I think so , but

35:36

then it's just like a shift in culture

35:39

and thought of , like , what

35:41

these agencies want to do , where it's like

35:43

, instead of thinking about , well , we have to

35:45

stop it here , like , um

35:47

, I know that , uh , what's

35:49

the firefighter ? Um saying , hurry

35:52

up and wait . Oh , because

35:54

, like , usually , it's like , oh , there's a fire , get

35:56

your gear . Yes , everyone , get ready , hurry

35:58

up , get there . And then you get there , and then the

36:00

ic is like well , we're just waiting

36:03

until , uh , it gets here

36:05

. Right , so a lot of your planning is

36:07

for where the fire is going to go . But I think the

36:09

forest service and the blm have learned

36:11

like and the blm is the Bureau

36:14

of Land Management- Because not everybody knows that

36:16

. Yeah . So you know they're

36:18

like , well , we're just going to let it run to that road , because

36:21

there's already a road there .

36:22

Oh , so it's not going to pass the road .

36:24

It's a break , so it's already a break and instead

36:26

of , like you know , getting a dozer in there

36:29

and dozing and doing all this work , why don't

36:31

we just get all our crews stopped

36:34

at this road , maybe burn in a

36:36

catcher's mitt , right ? So then

36:38

when it gets there , it just naturally

36:40

will put itself out . So

36:43

these are all the like little things

36:45

that a lot of the average person isn't

36:47

thinking about , that fire , fire

36:50

minded people , the trained people

36:53

, um , know and think about when it comes

36:55

to fighting fire . Wow .

36:57

Wow , there's a lot to it . There is

36:59

a lot to it and I've always

37:01

heard that fire kind of has a mind of its

37:03

own . It's very unpredictable .

37:06

I mean technically it

37:08

can be unpredictable , and I think

37:10

it's not fire that's unpredictable

37:13

. It could be weather , that's unpredictable

37:16

that feeds it right , that feeds it . And so I mean

37:18

, obviously you get fire at

37:20

certain levels and it is , and there's

37:22

fire whirls and this stuff

37:24

. But I think the other thing too

37:26

, when you look at these large scale fires , like

37:28

they have people that are checking

37:31

the know the weather patterns for

37:33

weeks in advance , you know

37:35

, and so a lot of fire stuff

37:37

is knowing the

37:39

future weather . So that's one of the things they

37:42

first train you . But it's like you know it's

37:44

going to be 90 degrees and low humidity

37:46

for the next two days , but in three

37:48

days there's a low pressure system

37:50

coming in and the humidity is going to

37:52

increase and the temperature is going to drop and

37:55

then naturally the fire won't

37:57

have as much energy to start

37:59

to suppress , it'll start to suppress . So another

38:01

big thing is just like knowing weather

38:03

patterns and wind shifts . You

38:05

know the fire can be going one way and

38:08

the wind's pushing it and it's going really fast

38:10

, and then , whether whether

38:12

you're in a Canyon or

38:14

um , uh

38:17

, you know the fog comes in out

38:19

here , like the fog causes a big wind

38:21

shift in the afternoon . So all these things

38:23

are are having an effect on that fire . Wow

38:25

.

38:27

One question that I I I

38:29

didn't look up any information on

38:31

this what do prescribed

38:33

fires do for wildlife

38:35

? I have

38:38

this vision , dana . You

38:40

know my vision . You know , because

38:42

I've always heard , too , that the

38:44

raptors sit on the outskirts

38:46

of a fire .

38:47

Yeah , we're talking the birds of prey , you guys , sit on the outskirts

38:50

and wait for the little animals to run out . And

38:54

it's like , yeah , time

39:01

to run out and it's like , yeah , time , yeah , I mean , if it was natural . And I mean

39:03

any , do they do that ? Have you seen that ? Yeah , I mean , I have

39:05

, I have seen that . But um , there's a very predictable predator prey cycle

39:07

and relationship and ecology that you

39:09

study and you know prey

39:12

population goes up . Predator

39:15

population eats that . So they're like cyclical

39:17

right . So the the lower , smaller

39:19

prey animal will increase and

39:22

then they'll be more bobcats got

39:24

it . But then there'll be so many bobcats and

39:27

they'll have babies and have a few successful

39:29

years , but then they eat all the squirrels

39:31

and the rodents . So then the squirrel and rodent

39:33

population drops , but then shortly

39:36

after that so will the bobcat population

39:38

. So they're very dependent on each other

39:40

. But it's natural to see and that increases

39:43

and decreases . so , um , any

39:45

large animals gonna get away

39:47

, you know , okay , um

39:49

, specifically in the prescribed control

39:51

burns , um , oh , because they're

39:54

slow moving right , or like a

39:56

deer . A deer is going to know what's

39:58

going on and run away

40:00

. But I would say as

40:02

far as rodents , they'll probably

40:04

get under the ground . No wonder . I'm

40:06

assuming lizards and snakes

40:08

would be able to get out of the way , but

40:10

I'm sure there's some casualty

40:13

of wildlife that's but

40:15

if it was happening , naturally it would happen

40:17

also .

40:18

I just I think about that .

40:20

I you know the whole idea of all the animals

40:22

running out of the forest part of , like

40:24

our controlled , prescribed burn planning

40:27

is that there's like

40:29

, if there was a raptor nest , right

40:32

, so like as a biologist , I'm

40:34

the biologist on the fire that's like

40:36

, hey , we have an active nest here

40:38

and so this will be avoided , right

40:41

, and so then we would put a perimeter around

40:43

that active nest . Or obviously , if we knew

40:45

, uh , there was a den with

40:48

coyote babies or bobcat

40:50

babies , like that then would

40:53

be avoided and excluded

40:55

from any prescribed or controlled

40:57

burn .

40:58

Nice , nice . So it really is . I

41:00

mean , it sounds to me like every all these details are

41:02

thought out and there's obviously

41:05

unavoidable things

41:07

.

41:08

At times , like you know , something

41:10

gets missed , but that's kind of

41:12

the natural cycle right If

41:14

it was a natural fire , it would

41:16

probably have consequences Some

41:19

you know bad consequences on some wildlife

41:22

populations . But we try to thoroughly

41:24

avoid that .

41:25

Awesome Good fire . I

41:29

would never have really put those two words together

41:31

, but I see now the important

41:34

role that fire plays in our forests and

41:36

other landscapes . Fire

41:38

is a part of nature , like rain

41:40

. It's an essential element

41:43

of the Earth's ecosystem , one

41:45

that we must learn to respect and coexist

41:48

with , while creating that

41:50

balance between its potential

41:52

for destruction and its

41:54

role in renewal . Thanks

41:57

for listening . You guys Take

42:00

care of each other . Thank you

42:13

.