0:03

Hello, Typology Tribe. Yes, once again,

0:05

it is time for us to

0:07

discuss the mystery of the human

0:09

personality and really the whole human

0:12

adventure through the lens of the

0:14

Enneagram. I'm on the show today,

0:17

as always. Thank gosh for

0:19

Anthony Skinner, my producer, my

0:21

friend, my pal, my confrer,

0:23

my songwriting partner, everything. Anthony,

0:25

how are you doing, man?

0:27

I'm doing really well. I've got some news,

0:29

but before I tell you my news, I

0:31

want to check in with you and see

0:33

how things are in San Miguel. You're in

0:35

a new place. I am in

0:38

a new house in San Miguel de

0:40

Allende, Mexico, where Annie and I are

0:42

living currently of this

0:44

year and having a ball. And

0:47

in fact, Anthony, I have bad news for you. Oh

0:50

no. Yeah, I met someone here. You did?

0:53

Yes, and she and I have developed

0:55

a relationship. It's purely professional. However,

0:59

she is taking

1:01

over your spot. In fact, she is

1:03

now going to introduce the show for

1:05

us. Bienvenidos

1:07

al podcast en el que

1:09

exploramos el misterio de la personalidad

1:12

humana a través de la lente

1:14

del Enneagram. Oh, did

1:16

you hear that? She said, welcome to

1:18

the podcast on which we explore the

1:20

mystery of the human personality through the

1:22

lens of the Enneagram. But

1:25

can't you do this? La casa de

1:27

mi padre. Yes,

1:31

actually. Yes,

1:34

she can. What's your big news? My

1:36

big news is my sweet daughter, my

1:38

middle daughter, May, who is an Enneagram

1:40

seven, put her on the plane yesterday

1:42

for a year in Australia.

1:46

What? She

1:48

got a work visa. She's a seven. She's got

1:50

to have some adventure. She said, all I know

1:52

is I want to go as far away from

1:54

Franklin as I possibly can. So she literally is

1:56

on the opposite side of the earth. You

1:59

know, dude, I. parents of sevens all

2:01

the time. Yeah. You just

2:06

can't. I'm going to miss her something

2:08

fierce, but I'm so excited for her.

2:10

I'm so excited for her. They are

2:12

independent, free spirits who have to go

2:14

take these adventures and these journeys. 100%.

2:17

And you got to let them, unless they're 12 and then

2:19

it's not appropriate to send them to Australia for a year.

2:22

Though you might feel like you want to at times. Yeah,

2:25

no, we're super excited for her. We're definitely

2:27

missing her already. On the way home, my

2:30

youngest were driving kind of in silence and my

2:32

youngest said, yeah, I miss

2:35

her. And then my

2:37

son, maybe 10 minutes later,

2:39

said the same thing. I was just thinking

2:41

in. So, love

2:44

you, May. Love you, Mazies. Oh,

2:46

that's so great. Well, speaking of Enneagram

2:48

sevens. Yes. We have an Enneagram

2:50

seven on the show today. It's

2:52

going to be a rockin' conversation. I

2:54

can tell right now that this is

2:56

going to be a great, great conversation.

2:59

I want to have everybody please welcome

3:01

Habbalah Cunningham, author

3:05

of the new book,

3:07

Anthony, created to hear God

3:09

for unique and proven ways

3:11

to confidently discern his voice.

3:14

Welcome to the show. And it is Habbalah,

3:16

right? It is. You said it right. It's

3:19

amazing. My

3:23

Starbucks name is Habbalah or

3:25

Pamela. Right now, Habbalah, you

3:27

got it right. I love it. I was thinking we

3:30

would refer to you through the

3:32

whole program as Habbalah. This is

3:34

why I replaced you with an

3:37

AI bot. I just want you

3:39

to know that that's

3:41

why you've been replaced. Oh my gosh. I

3:44

know. We're so happy to have you here.

3:46

It's an honor to be here. It's kind of

3:48

a dream come true. I've listened to typology for

3:51

many, many years, and I'm really

3:53

honored to be with both of you. You've

3:55

been that voice in my life for many

3:57

years, and we've laughed. My husband is a

3:59

great person. and I, we travel a lot

4:01

and we listen to podcasts on the way. And

4:03

we have, anytime we, you know,

4:06

know it's our number coming up, we like to

4:08

listen with each other and say, this is so

4:10

you it's very helpful. Uh,

4:12

but yeah, I was introduced to it from the

4:14

book that you first wrote in and then have,

4:17

have listened to it and enjoyed it a

4:19

lot. I think partly because I'm an, I'm an identical

4:22

twin. I'm actually a mere twin.

4:24

So I'm 25% of identical twins

4:26

are mere twins. So I'm

4:28

left-handed. She's right-handed. Uh,

4:30

we have no other siblings. So I've

4:32

always been fascinated with, uh, you know,

4:34

living in a life just very similar

4:37

to someone being a womb mate, all

4:39

the way to being a roommate up

4:41

until 25 and

4:43

just the uniqueness of our own

4:45

personalities outside of our nurture

4:47

and our environment. Wow. You have

4:49

just like, you have just tapped into all kinds

4:51

of interesting things we could discuss, but my question

4:53

to you is, and I want to see if

4:55

you answered the way that I suspect you will

4:58

is what type is your sister? Well,

5:00

I would say it took me a minute to figure it

5:02

out, but I would say that she is a four

5:05

three. Wow. Interesting.

5:08

Wow. So, you know, my friend

5:10

Suzanne, I don't know that

5:12

much about twins, but in

5:14

her experience, most twins are

5:17

of different types. Like, like

5:19

you would think, you know, well, just cause you look

5:21

like each other, it doesn't mean that your inner architecture

5:23

is identical. Yes. And in

5:25

a lot of our conflicts was very much,

5:27

in fact, the Enneagram was really, you

5:29

know, I know a lot of people have different

5:31

thoughts about it. And I always say, you know,

5:34

this is just my opinion, but if you don't

5:36

like it, you're probably an eight. I find most

5:38

eights are concerned about being controlled or are labeled.

5:40

And I always go, Oh, so you're an eight.

5:42

Funny. If you don't want to know about it. But

5:45

with her specifically, it was

5:47

very healing for me personally, because

5:50

I'm an Enneagram seven. I

5:53

think I was raised probably to be an eight,

5:55

an Enneagram eight. Now I'm

5:57

married to a one, which allows me to be.

6:00

in my six a little bit more in my life. Uh,

6:02

but for my sister, I couldn't

6:04

understand where the conflict came from until

6:06

I understood her core needs, which was

6:09

to be unique and to

6:11

be successful. And then you have an accidental

6:14

seven twin who is just

6:16

accidentally successful and just how

6:18

annoying that would be to live with. And

6:20

so it really gave me compassion to know

6:22

her own unique needs. Cause I was thinking,

6:24

aren't we having fun? No,

6:27

it's not fun to orbit around you all

6:29

the time. Actually, you know, unless

6:31

you think envy is fun, it's

6:34

not fun. All right. Because that,

6:36

that, that for with that envy

6:38

drive is looking at what you're

6:41

doing and comparing herself to you

6:43

all the time and as, as

6:46

she does to everybody else too, so it's

6:48

not just you, she's comparing herself to right.

6:50

Fours are notorious for, you know,

6:53

but always coming up short, like,

6:56

you know. And she's phenomenal. I mean,

6:58

it always amazed me because she had this

7:00

unique ability to

7:02

see the world in a way that

7:04

I could never see it. She has

7:06

this impeccable taste. She knows

7:09

how to create a wow factor. She knows,

7:11

I mean, just how to take the

7:14

moment and just soak out the best,

7:16

most ideal experience. And

7:18

I always amazed me that she didn't see

7:20

that as being elevated over everything else that

7:22

we were kind of just doing. Um,

7:25

but yeah, she, she definitely had that. And

7:27

then amazingly enough, my dad is a twin.

7:30

And so it was a very fascinating.

7:32

I think my dad being a twin

7:35

raised us not

7:37

in with the, with the right heart. But

7:40

I think he tried to solve his twin

7:42

wounds through raising another set

7:44

of twins. And that

7:46

was a fascinating thing because

7:49

for him, he wanted, I think

7:51

us to get along. He wanted us to be

7:53

best friends. He wanted it to be what he

7:55

had worked so hard to have later on in

7:57

life. He wanted us to have growing up. unique.

8:01

Wow! We have jumped into personal story

8:03

in wonderful ways already. We haven't even

8:06

gotten going yet. I love

8:08

that. I love it. So you're... Are you seven with eight

8:10

wing or eight with a seven wing? You

8:12

know, I have a lot of three as well. So

8:15

I really went back and forth between the three

8:17

and the seven and then I couldn't

8:20

get away from the eight growing up like

8:22

seeing the eight. So I would say I

8:25

definitely swing between the two but I have

8:28

a lot more six than I anticipated in my

8:30

older years. I think in my younger years I

8:32

had a lot more eight and

8:35

now my six is allowed to show up

8:37

differently. And you mentioned that it's

8:39

partly being... You mentioned that your husband is a

8:41

one and that he has brought out some of

8:43

that six energy in you which is probably you

8:46

experience it as tapping the break a little bit

8:48

on yourself. I think that marrying the one, you

8:50

know, again as we get older we start

8:56

to understand that we marry certain people probably to

8:58

remedy certain things and all the things but I

9:01

married the one attribute I was looking for in

9:04

a husband was trust.

9:07

I wanted to marry somebody I could trust and

9:09

that was again obviously

9:12

secondary to sexy and amazing and all those things

9:15

but for him specifically I think

9:17

that trust that I knew what he said

9:19

he meant that he was not faking

9:22

things he wasn't editing things

9:25

I was getting him and that allowed me

9:27

to feel very safe as a seven but

9:29

I think I was raised as an eight

9:31

I was raised in an evangelical church

9:35

community although my dad was a

9:37

traveling minister so we traveled in

9:39

all kinds of movements conservative charismatic

9:41

mission we went all over and

9:44

my dad was a

9:46

congressman son he was actually an immigrant

9:49

from Italy came over as a congressman

9:51

son ended up becoming

9:53

an atheist for seven years having

9:55

been raised in a Catholicism and

9:58

not a great experience although not true

10:00

for everybody, specifically for him it was,

10:03

and ended up coming to Christ and

10:05

really just radically

10:07

giving his life to Christ. He really traveled

10:09

and shared that story with the world. So

10:12

I was raised around a very

10:15

charismatic faith world, but I didn't see a

10:17

lot of women leading ever

10:20

in my environment. My

10:22

mom is an Enneagram nine,

10:25

so didn't care. And honestly didn't

10:28

know why I had this desire to lead, didn't

10:31

know how to do that. So I think as

10:33

a young woman it was,

10:35

if you're gonna lead as a woman, you

10:37

better be aggressive and you better have thick

10:39

skin and you better make it happen. And

10:41

that was really somewhat

10:44

of how I started at 18 traveling

10:46

and speaking and ministering

10:49

and then slowly went

10:51

through some metamorphosis. With

10:53

three of my boys, I have

10:55

four sons, I have four boys,

10:58

and we had four kids in five years. And

11:00

so I had a really dramatic

11:03

transition from being single at 27 to

11:05

being married and having four kids in

11:07

five years. It was a wild, you

11:10

know, sevens just jump in and eat the whole thing, right?

11:12

We're like, we're in. But

11:14

for me personally, I was diagnosed with

11:16

postpartum depression with my second son. And

11:19

I had this

11:21

massive conflict between I'm a pastor,

11:23

I'm an ordained minister, and I have depression,

11:25

and how can I have both at the

11:27

same time? And so that

11:29

took a long time for me to process. And

11:31

what I realized was a lot of my depression

11:34

was symptoms of me trying

11:36

to ignore the emotions

11:39

that were underneath the surface and trying

11:41

to power my way through it rather

11:44

than actually acknowledging it and having limitations.

11:46

So again, that's like a whole story

11:48

in itself, but that's how it started for

11:50

me. Wow. So

11:52

much seven stuff going on there. So

11:55

much seven stuff. So, you know,

11:57

we know that, you know, sevens, let

11:59

me back up. I was thinking this

12:01

morning that every Enneagram type

12:04

reveals how human beings hide

12:06

themselves. So when you

12:08

think about Genesis and we think about Adam and Eve

12:11

in the garden and then clothing themselves, like what, you

12:14

know, we think about that as a metaphor for

12:16

personality. It reveals how each

12:18

of us hide our true selves from

12:21

ourselves and how we also

12:23

hide from our greatest fears. And,

12:26

you know, sevens hide behind

12:29

this oftentimes toxic

12:31

optimism, this

12:33

can-do, this cheeriness, and so

12:35

much of it is in service to

12:38

hiding from those feelings that

12:40

really ex... that pose to

12:43

the sevens mind a real

12:45

existential threat, right? Like it's

12:47

like, oh my gosh, if I feel grief

12:50

and sadness and

12:53

pain and suffering, will there

12:55

be anyone there for me to

12:57

help me, to support me, to

13:00

hold me? And in most

13:02

sevens, if they haven't done their work, don't believe there

13:04

is going to be anyone there to

13:06

support them. And so they

13:08

create this kind of Peter Pan, like

13:10

Neverland, where they can just go and

13:12

work, stay in the future and keep

13:14

running. Just keep running, man. Just don't

13:16

stop running into

13:19

this beautiful, incredible, sunny future. And

13:21

whatever you do, don't stop to

13:23

feel the feels because if you

13:25

do, you won't survive. Now,

13:28

just as I said that I'm looking at you right now

13:30

and you're getting a

13:33

little, as we used to say in Yiddish,

13:35

verklempt, you're getting a... you're

13:37

puddling up. What's happening to you right now?

13:39

I totally agree. And I

13:41

think when I hit that

13:44

postpartum depression, I was

13:46

told, don't tell anybody

13:48

that you're going to go to therapy. Don't

13:51

tell anybody that you're going on medication because

13:53

then everybody will think it's okay. And

13:56

so do what you need to do, but don't tell

13:58

anybody. So my first... It's

14:00

I know it's really it's interesting, but I think

14:02

you know now we've opened up in the faith

14:04

world. I mean Again, I I

14:07

get the privilege of traveling all over and I get

14:09

to speak in all different kinds of

14:11

communities and i'm so grateful that mental health

14:13

is now being elevated and acknowledged and and

14:15

and Championed and I

14:17

love all that but in in my world, I

14:20

think growing up without the internet and all the

14:22

things We were taught that therapy

14:24

was secondary, you know medication was a was

14:26

a band-aid that she got the healer And

14:28

he's really set you free from those things

14:30

and you just need to ask forgiveness or

14:32

you just need to power through So

14:35

when I wasn't able to power through I

14:38

think those that saw me

14:40

my choices hadn't necessarily led

14:42

me to crisis In

14:45

the sense that again. Yes, my choices

14:47

did I was my choices

14:49

to try to do the right thing led

14:51

me to crisis not my choices to

14:54

ignore The right thing

14:56

and just kind of reap reap what I

14:58

was sewing so that was kind of the

15:01

core concept was well You reap

15:03

what you sow. So there's something that's going

15:05

on. That's not right that it's led you

15:07

to this crisis And so figure

15:09

it out. We love you. We're here for you

15:11

cry with us But don't tell anybody because you're

15:14

leading thousands of people and we don't want to

15:16

give them permission to not go to christ first

15:18

which sounds Funny

15:20

now in the world that we live in now,

15:22

but back in the day that was absolutely the

15:24

culture And I was in a lot of cultures

15:26

and that's what it was. So By

15:29

the the second time I went I finally

15:31

said I can't keep this a secret anymore

15:33

And by the third time I was just

15:35

telling everybody but it was the

15:37

moment when I

15:40

walked into my therapist office and I

15:42

was so scared because I've never

15:44

been in a therapist office I never had

15:46

anything like that And she

15:48

gave me a test that said let's see if you

15:50

have post-partum depression Let me ask you two questions and

15:52

she went down this list and at the

15:54

end of it She said well out of the 14 answers you Out

15:58

of you've had 13 that prove that you

16:01

are dealing with post-harm depression. And I remember

16:03

just my, I just started crying

16:05

because it was so validating. And

16:08

then she just had space for me to

16:10

not be okay. And I'll never

16:13

forget that feeling. And

16:15

I genuinely believe that it saved

16:17

my life because it was somebody who just

16:19

let me be there. And I

16:21

sat with her for six months. And

16:23

this is so classic, Ian, you're gonna love this because this

16:26

is the classic seven. At

16:28

the six month mark, I have now worked my

16:30

way off the medication. I now have two boys

16:32

under the age of two. I'm rocking my life

16:34

again. And I look at her and

16:36

I say, okay, I'm done. Like, okay, isn't this

16:38

great? Like I'm good to go. And

16:41

I had the nerve to ask her, so what do

16:43

you think about my life? Like, what do you actually

16:45

think? And at this point I thought I had won

16:47

her over. Like that was a really dark, weird moment.

16:49

That's not who I am. Like I'm doing great. You

16:52

fall in love with me, right? And

16:54

she goes, you really wanna know. And

16:56

I said, I do. And she said, have

16:58

a live. The baby got you

17:01

here sooner, but you would have been in my

17:03

office eventually. And I

17:05

wanted to punch her. I wanted to punch

17:07

her and say, you are not getting it.

17:09

Like, no, I'm amazing. That was a dark

17:11

moment, but that's not who I am. And

17:14

then she said, I've seen so

17:16

many people have

17:18

ministry widows and ministry orphans.

17:21

And if you don't wanna have a ministry widow

17:23

or become one or have ministry orphans, I

17:26

want to help you be here for the long

17:28

distance. And so she said, if you're willing to,

17:31

I'm gathering a group of eight women that

17:33

are completely anonymous. You're not allowed to ask

17:35

each other's last names or what each of

17:37

you do. You all are leading in your

17:39

own field, in the city. But

17:42

if you'll meet with me for one year every

17:44

Friday, I will teach you what healthy boundaries look

17:46

like. And I met with her for, it

17:48

ended up being a year and a half. I

17:51

never knew what those women did. I don't know their last

17:53

names, never was in touch with them again, but

17:55

it radically changed my life that I

17:57

was able to be discipled in. what

18:00

was in my yard and what was in somebody else's

18:02

and how to actually own my

18:05

own emotion. So it's a

18:07

long answer to your question, but that was really critical

18:09

for me. Well, it's a lovely story

18:11

for all sevens to hear, right? I mean, when you

18:13

were talking about your husband earlier, I was like, well,

18:15

of course you would be attracted to a one and

18:18

around issues around trust, but also

18:21

can I trust that you will be here for

18:23

me when the crap hits the fan?

18:26

Like will you be there for me? Because

18:28

as a seven, I'm scared, I'm

18:30

anxious, right? I'm always

18:34

unconsciously thinking about

18:36

the idea that no one will

18:38

be there for me, therefore

18:40

I have to create this

18:43

alternative reality where everything's

18:45

gonna be great, everything's good. You know, it's

18:47

so funny, Anthony and I were talking earlier,

18:49

Richard Rohr, Richard,

18:51

he's so, I mean, Richard was

18:53

the one who introduced me to

18:55

the Enneagram and Richard

18:58

always laughs, he says, he can actually

19:01

connect the dots between different faith traditions

19:03

and different Enneagram types, right?

19:06

And sevens, he calls it

19:08

Pentecostals and Charismatics, it's like

19:10

these seven theological

19:13

paradigm. Anytime you

19:15

can jump up and down and dance, you

19:17

know what I'm saying? It's like, and

19:20

yet, when you get in touch

19:24

with other sort of streams, like for

19:26

example, in Catholicism and it's the healthiest

19:28

expression, like Catholics know how to deal with pain.

19:31

They know all about, I mean, there's a lot

19:33

of trying

19:35

to find meaning and suffering and pain.

19:37

I think that's a beautiful part of

19:40

their tradition. So anyway, it just

19:42

makes me laugh whenever I meet a seven who's a,

19:44

comes from a Charismatic tradition, I'm like, well, of

19:47

course you do. I know,

19:49

it's true, and I've also found that to be

19:51

true because I travel internationally and speak

19:53

in international rooms, how much

19:55

the Enneagram has helped me identify the

19:57

culture. So like if I go to Brazil,

20:00

I got a room full of sevens and eights, right?

20:02

But if I go to Switzerland, I'm

20:04

going to have a six or I'm going to have a

20:06

five in the room, right? So it's very, again, I'm not,

20:09

I, again, I'm not the expert you are, but

20:11

in that sense, I have to know what they

20:13

need from me. Because if I

20:15

treat them, if I treat the Norwegians like

20:17

a seven, they're not going to like me

20:19

very much. They do enjoy if

20:22

I can empower them in different ways. So

20:24

it is, it does help me that way

20:26

as well. Not just denominationally, but also culturally.

20:29

Yeah, well, I mean, I do think there's

20:31

something to it. It's also kind of cutesy,

20:33

but it but there's something, you know, we've

20:35

been through this before on the show, but

20:37

you'll warns are very Swiss. Right. Yeah. Lots

20:39

of tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,

20:41

tick, tick, tick, right. You

20:43

know, when you talk about threes, we used

20:46

to say America was a three country. Now

20:48

I think it's six countries. But oh,

20:50

for a long time, three country, all all

20:53

image and image conscious and get ahead

20:55

and we can be successes. And, you know,

20:57

Horatio Alger story, the great American story, do

20:59

better than our parents did, you know, blah,

21:02

blah, blah. You can go to France

21:04

and run into fours and you go to

21:06

England and it's five. You can go to

21:08

Germany. They all the Germans

21:10

tell me they're sixes, sevens, Brazil

21:13

or Ireland. Israelis

21:15

Israelis tell me eight that

21:17

their culture is eight. What about

21:19

the Australian? You think you come to me? Seven.

21:23

Yeah, I think seven. Really? Seven.

21:27

Seven. Yeah, there are a lot of sevens in

21:29

Australia. But man, I mean,

21:31

until they drink and then they get eight. But

21:33

there's a. Again,

21:36

these are all kinds of fun little things

21:38

to talk about. But but, you know, ultimately,

21:40

cultures are far more complicated than a type.

21:42

But but they do kind of have flavors

21:45

like sort of type heavy flavor. That

21:48

seems to be the case in different

21:50

parts of the parts of

21:52

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24:14

Yeah, so I want to talk to you about this

24:16

new book of yours. Yes. Because

24:18

I'm really fascinated, and I've got to

24:21

be honest, I'm already, you know, Anthony

24:23

will tell you, sometimes I come in the show as

24:25

a four, and I'm from New York, so there's a

24:27

little part of me that's always like, okay, what are

24:29

we going to do? So I hear,

24:31

you know, created to hear God, four unique and

24:33

proven ways to confidently discern his voice. Now I'm

24:36

an Enneagram four, and so I'm

24:38

always like, I don't know. Gosh,

24:42

it's so complicated hearing God's voice. And

24:44

every time I then hear there's only

24:46

four ways, part of me rebels inside

24:49

and kind of goes, oh, really? So

24:52

I'm already on your side, but

24:54

I'm going to have some questions, I bet, which will be

24:56

really fun. Tell me about, tell us about the book,

24:59

and then let's just dive right into this because it's

25:01

a big topic. I mean, people have been writing

25:03

about this for thousands of years. They have,

25:05

and I am a little nervous to present this to a

25:07

four. I'm teasing, but. I

25:11

am not your sister. Do not project. I am not

25:13

your sister. Well, first I want to just say,

25:17

I believe everyone

25:19

deserves to hear the voice of God.

25:21

So I just want to start with that idea

25:23

that like we are worthy of, our

25:25

creator interacting with us. And

25:28

depending on what that looks like, I think

25:31

each of us are worthy of that interaction.

25:33

Now, what that looks like, I think is

25:35

very unique. And the reason

25:37

I wrote this book was I did

25:39

not think I could hear God's voice.

25:41

I didn't. And what

25:43

was demonstrated to me again, you picked

25:45

up on the charismatic world that

25:47

I grew up in was there was a very

25:50

distinct personality and a verbiage. And God told

25:52

me this and best day at the Lord.

25:54

And, you know, a very, like

25:56

even a voice change sometimes.

26:00

a whole different personality. And so I

26:03

was the girl that sat in these rooms

26:05

and did not hear God, could not. I

26:07

could read his word and get something from

26:09

it. I could get someone could pray over

26:11

me and I could receive something. But

26:14

I assumed that when someone said, we're gonna pray

26:16

for you to hear God's voice, I thought it

26:18

was gonna be like a radio station or it

26:20

was gonna be this like audible

26:22

voice where all of a sudden God's voice was

26:25

booming in and I thought, there you are, I

26:27

finally have this station. And

26:30

so I grew up in this environment

26:32

where we talked a lot about hearing

26:34

God's voice, which is awesome if

26:36

you're hearing his voice, but it's terrible if

26:39

you're not and you feel like you're always

26:41

on the outside looking in. And

26:43

it did not help that I grew

26:46

up with learning disabilities. So I dyslexic,

26:48

I have reading and comprehension issues and I have

26:51

a little ADD in there, so ADHD. So

26:53

add that to perfect cocktail for me to

26:55

already feel like I'm on the outside looking

26:57

in and academics and in regular

27:00

life. And then to be in the church

27:02

world and to feel like I'm on the outside looking in as

27:04

well, I just really babbled

27:06

with this idea. And

27:09

a long story short, I

27:11

really began to hear

27:13

God's voice, but it wasn't as I thought

27:15

it would. And it kind of goes into

27:17

a story where I, at one point was

27:19

praying for someone and my friend said, why

27:21

don't you share what you really sense for

27:23

this person? And I heard the

27:25

name Shadrach. And I

27:27

mean, I'm 17 years old. I'm not

27:30

thinking about Shadrach. I'm trust me, I'm not.

27:33

And she said, why don't you just tell him what

27:35

you heard? And I was

27:37

really, as a 17 year old, seven if

27:40

you will, my

27:43

first thought was McDonald's french fries. Like that's

27:45

what I'm sensing right now, which is purely

27:47

a physical thing. And

27:49

I'm just hungry, it's one o'clock in the morning. But

27:52

as I say this name, Shadrach,

27:54

this other teenage guy, he has this

27:57

immediate reaction. He

27:59

starts to cry. And he's having this

28:01

kind of moment and I am shocked.

28:03

I'm thinking I don't understand it. Is that

28:05

his name? Why is that matter to him?

28:09

So my friend prays over him my other friend

28:11

prays over him and then he comes

28:13

up and he goes can you pray for my other

28:15

Friend and so we close our eyes again and my

28:17

friend Stacy says habla you have something for him You

28:19

should share it and I want it I want to

28:21

kill her because I now she's called my name She's

28:23

told me I have something for this guy and I

28:26

have nothing nothing So I close my eyes and I

28:28

hear the name of Indigo And I'm

28:30

thinking sarcastically God you have

28:32

a big Bible. Why are you giving me this? The

28:35

same story in the same, you know the

28:37

same chapter, but okay, so I say the

28:39

name of Indigo and the guy has this

28:42

physical reaction We starts to weep and

28:44

he is just something is happening and

28:46

I'm I am feeling nothing I'm like

28:49

shocked that this is actually interacting with

28:51

them Fast forward we

28:53

pray I pray over four of them and

28:55

I get the name Shadrek Meshach Abindagoa and

28:57

Daniel And when they get

28:59

up there are these teenage guys It's myself

29:01

and my teenage sister and a friend and

29:04

they're all weepy and puffy faced and they

29:06

say you probably hear this all

29:08

The time but we had a prophetic person come

29:10

into our environment and he called us all out

29:12

separately in the room We were

29:15

not sitting together and he said you're a Meshach your

29:17

Shadrach You're an Abindagoa and you're a Daniel and

29:19

you said the exact names that this man gave us

29:22

per per man and

29:24

I was Shocked

29:27

I was like wait is that that must

29:29

have been something something divine But yet I

29:32

don't really know exactly what that is And

29:35

so of course I wasn't gonna give him that so I said

29:37

of course we hear that all the time and we went to

29:39

Our car laughing like oh my gosh. Can you believe that just

29:41

happened? But I was so

29:44

struck with that moment because I didn't

29:47

feel anything At

29:49

all physically. I didn't hear

29:51

anything. I didn't see

29:53

anything I just had a knowing

29:55

it was like an intuitive knowing I'm gonna I'm

29:57

just gonna in faith say this and if it

30:00

resonates, it resonates. So I

30:02

go into this idea of, wow,

30:05

I have thought it was gonna be this mystical,

30:09

profound, unbelievable, takes my body over

30:11

moment, and it wasn't. It wasn't

30:13

at all. So I start to

30:15

go on the journey of how do I learn to hear God's

30:17

voice? And what I found was that

30:19

I was asking the wrong question. And

30:22

I think most of us ask the wrong

30:24

question. And that question is, God, what

30:26

are you saying? That's the

30:29

question that all culture, all of our

30:31

faith, people of faith ask. But

30:33

we've never asked the question, how

30:35

was I created to hear God?

30:38

How was I created? And so

30:40

the reason I love the Enneagram is because

30:43

it really allows us to not be like

30:46

everybody else, to have a unique filter in

30:48

a way that we can direct. Yes.

30:50

Stop, one second. I just wanna

30:52

underscore something. You're just so sorry.

30:54

But you just said something so

30:57

important. The Enneagram allows us to-

31:00

To be unique or I'm not, you know, you're asking

31:02

a seven to repeat yourself. It's gonna be tricky.

31:04

But it allows us to be unique and

31:07

to have a unique experience and

31:12

we're not all the same person. I

31:14

think that's really important in life to

31:17

be different, to have a uniqueness, to

31:19

understand that God doesn't interact with all

31:21

of his kids the same way. Just

31:24

like I have four boys, I don't

31:26

interact with Judah, my eldest, like Beckham.

31:28

My number, my Judah who's a four

31:30

on the Enneagram, I don't interact

31:33

with Beckham who's probably a seven on the

31:35

Enneagram. It's very different. And what I found

31:37

in church is that we end up acting

31:39

as if God speaks the same way to all

31:41

of us and we just need to all

31:43

interact within the same way and we don't.

31:46

So I started going into this idea of how

31:48

does God uniquely interact with that?

31:50

And the way that I, after many years

31:52

of studying it and trying to figure this

31:54

part out, I found there

31:57

are four distinct, I call them prophetic personalities.

32:00

I know that can sound a little weird for your listeners, like, uh-oh,

32:02

here we go. But the way that

32:04

I relate is prophetic is how God speaks

32:06

to you, and personality

32:08

is how you speak to the

32:10

world, how you interact with the world. So

32:12

it's how God speaks through you and

32:15

how you speak to the world is

32:17

how we interact. Now, prophecy would be

32:19

how God speaks to the world through

32:21

you. That's a whole different topic. But

32:23

I'm just talking about the interaction of

32:25

God with us. So I found

32:27

there are four distinct ways, and again, not to

32:30

take away the sacredness that God can

32:32

speak, however the heck he wants to

32:34

speak. He is, it is not, God

32:37

could not be put in a box. Like, I wanna be

32:39

very clear. We could not limit God

32:41

to these filters. But

32:43

what I'm trying to do, and what I think

32:45

the Enneagram does, and I think often what the

32:47

love languages do, is it

32:49

gives us a starting point. It allows us

32:52

to at least recognize where we might be

32:54

so we can actually go deeper into the

32:56

theology or into the psychology of it. So

32:59

for me, I found there are four ways. There's the knower,

33:02

and the knower are the light bulb people.

33:04

They're the ones that they

33:06

get this supernatural, kind of

33:08

an intuitive wisdom, sense, clarity.

33:10

God speaks to them through

33:12

a knowing, through a

33:14

supernatural, like an intuitive, like Paul took

33:17

Timothy instinctively. There was this kind of,

33:19

I should buy that. I should go

33:21

there. I should marry them. There's this

33:24

sense, and we begin to find

33:26

out it's God because of history. Through history and

33:28

through knowing and through wisdom, it's like, and you

33:30

can find a knower, a knower, and I wanna

33:32

be able to get through all of them, but

33:35

I'll tell you, a knower often

33:37

feels like the heathen in the room because

33:39

they don't have any interaction. They just have

33:41

this, I know that I know. I

33:44

know that God is real. I know that he

33:46

loves me, and they live in that knowing. Then

33:49

you have the hearer. The

33:51

hearer are the ears of the room. And

33:53

at least in a charismatic world, here

33:56

is the traditional most taught

33:59

method. God

34:01

speaks to hearers through

34:03

words, phrases, dialogues, and

34:05

conversations. They are the journalists.

34:08

They're the ones that love to have conversations

34:10

with the divine. They have these stories that

34:12

play by play with God, and then God

34:14

said this, and then God said that, and

34:16

then God told me that. So they're the

34:18

hearers. And then you

34:20

have the seers. And the seers

34:22

are your eyes of God,

34:24

speaks of them through vision. So they either

34:26

get pictures, images.

34:28

They get dreams, whether they're

34:31

night dreams or daydreams or

34:33

supernatural dreams. But

34:35

they kind of, God speaks to them through imagery

34:37

is the only way I know how to explain it. They

34:40

get an image. They see the orphanage being built. They

34:43

see themselves going over here and doing

34:45

that. And they get the vision. And

34:47

when they get that supernatural divine interaction,

34:49

they often have faith for it. And

34:52

they're the type where they want to change the world,

34:54

but they don't always change their sheets. So

34:56

they want to change. They know what they want to do with

34:58

their future, but they don't know how to make like, they

35:00

don't know what they're having for dinner. Those are your seers. And

35:03

then lastly is your feelers. And

35:07

your feelers are those that God interacts

35:09

with through an emotional,

35:13

whether it's a burden, whether it's a

35:15

sensing, it's a physical kind of interaction

35:17

with the divine when they get somewhere,

35:19

they even remember going in environments and

35:21

there's a sense of good or bad

35:23

or I should be or I shouldn't

35:25

be here. It's a sensing and often

35:28

they're the ones that will

35:30

weep with those that need to be wept with.

35:32

They're the ones that will go into an environment

35:34

and feel a burden and everyone else will go

35:36

sense anything. And they're like, can't you sense it?

35:38

Something we need to be here. We need to

35:40

do something. They're those ones. And

35:42

so the feeler are those that are

35:45

predominantly encountering God through an experience. Now

35:47

my husband is a feeler and my

35:49

dad is a feeler. So it's not

35:51

just male or female. It's really about

35:53

how God interacts divinely with you. And

35:56

what I found is that once we understand

35:58

the. primary way in

36:01

which God interacts with us, we will

36:03

be bilingual, we will be trilingual and

36:05

quadrangle. They'll have all of those experiences,

36:07

but the main goal is how do

36:09

we connect with the divine and why

36:11

is that important to us? And

36:14

so for me personally, once I

36:16

understood that I'm a knower, I

36:19

stopped feeling envious

36:22

of my hearing friends and my seeing friends because

36:24

my sister is a hearer. So it's God told

36:26

me this and God told me that and I'll

36:28

think God hasn't said anything to me since 1963.

36:30

I mean I wasn't

36:33

born there, but it does have that sense of

36:35

like, wait you're hearing God all the time? Like

36:37

do you need medication? There's a sense of that

36:39

feeling rather than no, it's actually just how you

36:42

interact. So here's the cool part. I

36:45

created a course on this idea and then we

36:47

put together a test and we

36:49

had a hundred and fifty thousand

36:52

people take the prophetic personality test

36:54

to figure out how God, how they

36:56

interact with the divine in their life.

36:59

And I'll just put it out to you and

37:01

Anthony, but can you guess what the

37:03

number, 70% of a

37:06

hundred thousand people, what they were? A

37:08

feeler, knower, hear, or seer. I'd

37:11

love you to guess what you would see

37:13

people interact with the divine. Hmm. Who

37:16

was the group? Excuse me? Who was the group

37:18

that you? It was just a Facebook,

37:20

it was just a worldwide. It was not a

37:24

specific faith group, it was not

37:26

a specific denomination, it was agnostic,

37:28

atheist, all the way, although they

37:31

probably said they don't. But in

37:33

general, it was a diverse group.

37:35

Wow. Okay, I'm just gonna take a shot at it.

37:38

Yes. That it is

37:40

either knowers or feelers. Yeah,

37:42

I was thinking knower. Feelers.

37:44

70% of people

37:47

encounter the divine through a sensing,

37:50

a feeling, an emotion, a burden,

37:53

an interaction, and the

37:55

least amount are seers. So

37:57

the very least amount are those that see

37:59

something. imagery, dreaming, vision,

38:01

big dreams. And

38:04

they're kind of the more isolated group

38:06

with God because they don't really have a,

38:10

they're kind of the ones that carry that vision

38:12

when everybody else is helping them fulfill that vision.

38:14

So it's a very unique group. Yeah,

38:16

so you're kind of like

38:19

actually tapping into something that's sort of true in

38:21

psychology. Most people think they make decisions on the

38:23

basis of their thoughts. Like they thought,

38:25

I thought it through, and I decided

38:27

this. Every decision

38:29

is emotional. Every single decision

38:31

is emotional. Then after

38:34

your heart tells you, your feelings tell

38:36

you something, your brain kicks in and

38:38

makes the case for it logically. But

38:41

the first thing out the gate is a

38:43

feeling. And I don't care if you're a

38:45

Supreme Court justice or a mom of

38:47

12 kids, you are

38:50

making emotional decisions all the time

38:52

based on feelings, right? So that

38:54

doesn't surprise me, right? But

38:56

what is interesting, and we're not gonna be able

38:58

to tease this out, but I teach

39:00

all the time that we are

39:03

three brain creatures. We have three

39:05

brains. You got a

39:07

brain, an intellect, you

39:09

have a heart. Your heart

39:11

is a brain of its own. Your

39:14

heart thinks in feelings, if you

39:17

will, right? And then

39:19

you have your gut. Your

39:21

gut is a brain. Your gut is telling you

39:23

stuff, do this, don't do that. Oh, that makes

39:25

no sense, but my gut tells me to do

39:27

it. Well, what are you talking about? Your gut

39:29

tells you to do it. Like that makes no

39:31

sense at all. Like, you know, if you believe

39:33

that your brain, so when you

39:36

meet, by the way, five, sixes and sevens, particularly

39:38

fives, there's a kind of

39:40

hubris or arrogance in an

39:42

unhealthy five, which is that thinking

39:45

is superior to your gut

39:47

or your heart because we

39:49

have privileged intellect over

39:51

the heart and over the gut. It's

39:54

not true. It's absolutely

39:56

not true. They are co-equal. And

39:59

so the goal part of the goal of the Enneagram is how

40:02

do you get your three centers of intelligence

40:05

in balance so that you

40:07

are having access to all three brains. So

40:09

eight, nines and ones in the gut

40:11

triad, they over rely on the gut

40:14

to the right and they kind of are less in

40:16

touch with their heart and their head. And I could

40:18

go through all right five, six and sevens are not

40:21

in touch enough, they're in touch with their head, but

40:23

not enough with their heart and their gut. And

40:25

two, threes and fours in the heart triad are yep,

40:27

they're all in touch with the heart, but they're not

40:29

enough with critical thinking in the

40:32

head space and in the

40:34

gut space. So again, I don't know

40:36

what the overlap is here, but it's

40:38

pretty clear. Like when you said knowers,

40:41

I was like, sounds like gut people

40:43

to me. Sounds like eight,

40:46

nine, ones energy or coming

40:49

out of that center of intelligence more

40:51

than, and then you talk about feelers,

40:55

maybe they live more in the heart space, that

40:57

their heart intelligence and

41:00

maybe they need to pay more attention to these other spaces

41:04

in order to live a life of balance. I don't

41:06

know, I'm riffing here, but it got me going. No,

41:08

I love it. I love it. And I was trying to

41:10

think, I guess the fear would

41:13

be more of the dreamer and somebody

41:15

who can kind of maybe in a

41:17

healthy way see forward, but I absolutely

41:19

agree with you. I think the unique

41:21

part again, and my

41:23

whole motivation and our motivation

41:25

obviously is to love

41:27

the person God created and then to

41:29

interact with the creator God. Like that would be

41:31

at least my heart in this is you

41:34

can't form, you can't give God

41:36

a formula. Like you and I, I hope we all

41:38

know this a little bit that God is not man.

41:40

The Bible says he is not man. He became

41:43

a man, but ultimately, you know,

41:45

the God, God is God. He is way

41:48

more complex than this. But the goal of

41:50

something like this is not to box God

41:52

in, but to give us

41:54

a way to connect so that we

41:56

can build a better relationship and a

41:59

deeper interaction him because I believe

42:01

that God is always speaking to

42:03

us. And that might be unique

42:05

to people that are listening, but God is a

42:08

communicator. He wrote a whole book. He likes to

42:10

talk to us. And I think a

42:12

lot of us want, and this is just my

42:14

opinion, but I think a lot

42:16

of us don't want to hear from God. We

42:18

say we can't hear God speak to us, but

42:21

I don't think that that's entirely always

42:23

true. I think we don't want

42:26

to hear from him, even though we

42:28

think we're logically supposed to want to. I

42:30

don't think we want to because I think deep

42:32

down we believe that God

42:34

is either angry, distant,

42:37

disappointed, is ready to

42:39

blame us, shame us. And so there's

42:42

this part of us that wants to interact. It's like

42:44

having a parent that we don't really

42:46

want to have in our lives, but we

42:48

think, gosh, I need a dad. I

42:50

want to interact with my dad, but I

42:53

don't know if I want to because every time I interact

42:55

with them, it's painful. And that's where

42:57

I think we are as a culture is we

42:59

have to get back to when

43:01

God speaks to us. He is the

43:03

most loving, nurturing, embracing

43:06

parent, and he wants to be with us.

43:08

He wants to be in the highs and

43:10

the lows. And maybe that's the seven of

43:12

me talking, but I really do believe he

43:14

wants to be in those integral parts. But

43:17

if we think that we can't hear

43:19

like everybody else, and this is what I

43:21

find is there's just this lack of diversity

43:23

in our environments where, you know, if you

43:25

are a hearer and everybody's a hearer in

43:27

your environment, then you never really feel included.

43:29

Or if you're a feeler, then you think,

43:31

well, I never ever have an emotional experience

43:33

in my face. So I must not be

43:35

as saved as you are as, you know,

43:37

faithful as you are. And none of

43:40

that is true. And the way that I relate it is

43:42

in my life, at least, because I get to teach

43:44

thousands of people, I've

43:46

learned that they are dialed. They're

43:49

almost like dialects. They're the way that people

43:51

encounter the world and God. So

43:53

I like to be bilingual. So when

43:55

I teach something, I might know something,

43:58

but I can change it to say. for

44:00

my feelers in the room, I feel

44:02

like God really wants to heal you.

44:04

And that will allow my feelers to

44:06

connect differently than I know that you

44:08

know the truth and the truthless

44:11

that you feel. Those are my knowers. So I

44:13

always tell pastors, and Anthony,

44:15

we have a mutual friend, Josh Graves, and he and I, he's a pastor

44:18

of a pretty big church in Nashville, and a

44:20

dear, dear, dear friend. And

44:22

he said the big thing the Enneagram taught him

44:26

was that he's a three. He

44:28

said, you tend to think, oh everyone

44:30

is like me. Everyone's

44:33

like me. So I'm gonna just talk

44:35

to you like I would talk to me. And he

44:38

said what I realized that there are nine different kinds

44:40

of ears in the room. Nine

44:43

different centers all operating. He said it changed

44:45

the whole way he preached because it was

44:47

like I realized all of a sudden not

44:51

everybody likes to you know X

44:54

formulation or expression. They

44:56

need to hear me say the same thing in

44:59

a different way to each group, or at least

45:01

you know as best you can, right? Now I

45:04

also think that for me

45:06

as a four, I'm a feeler. Now

45:10

historically God has spoken to me

45:13

in, for example, through suffering.

45:16

I'm very attuned to suffering. I

45:18

understand it. And I'm

45:20

always looking for meaning. What

45:23

does this mean? Where is

45:25

the redemption in this darkness, right? So

45:29

feelings, music,

45:33

nature, deep emotional connection

45:35

with other people. This is how I hear

45:37

God. That's because that's my

45:39

architecture, right? That's right. Now

45:41

I also though have

45:43

to discipline myself to listen

45:45

to God in different ways and

45:48

not just default to always being in

45:50

that zone. Am I making sense? Yeah

45:54

and again not to label. I think

45:56

that's the issue too with even the

45:58

prophetic personalities is that we end up

46:00

labeling, oh, the emotional person must be a

46:02

feeler. And the person who's just, you

46:04

know, has an opinion, must be a knower. But

46:07

really, it's like the Enneagram, you

46:09

can't predict what somebody is

46:11

unless you know what their core need is.

46:14

And I think it's the same way with hearing

46:16

God. We can assume, oh, that person's

46:18

a feeler because they cry every time they're worshiped or they

46:20

cry every time. No, actually you

46:22

have to go deeper to know how

46:24

do we most feel loved by our

46:26

creator? How do we most feel connected?

46:29

How do we most, it's

46:31

almost like that part of us that goes, I

46:34

was made by a God who

46:36

knew me and I don't have to change

46:38

me to be me. And I think that's

46:40

really critical. So there's even a chapter

46:42

in my book that a lot of people can't figure out

46:44

what they are. Like, how do I figure out what mine

46:46

is? Because I'm operating in all of these. And

46:49

I like to go back to how did

46:52

God interact with you in the beginning?

46:54

It's almost like when you first felt

46:56

connected or loved or when you first

46:58

felt safe enough to explore your faith,

47:00

what was that? And was there

47:02

an emotional experience or was it a knowing

47:05

it's time? It's time to come to my

47:07

faith? Or was it a scene? Do

47:09

you have a vision of your future or was there

47:11

a hearing? I just heard God say it's time. And

47:14

then going back to that. And then if you

47:16

can't find that out, then I recommend

47:18

you go to your most painful. What

47:21

has hurt you the most when it comes to

47:23

hearing God's voice? And I relate it

47:25

to this. There was this girl once I was talking

47:27

to in Australia, actually, in a green room, and I

47:30

was talking to her about her life. And she

47:32

was talking about this painful experience in her

47:35

life where she had come

47:37

into the church, was on staff there. There

47:39

was this handsome young man that comes in

47:41

the church and she thinks she's going to

47:43

marry. You know, didn't think didn't think anything

47:45

about him, actually. Kind of was attracted

47:47

to him, but didn't think much. And then one of

47:49

the leaders on staff pulled her aside one day and

47:51

said, I had this dream that you married this guy.

47:54

I don't know where that came from. It's really weird,

47:56

but I had this dream. I just want to tell

47:58

you just in case it ever happened. something, you know,

48:01

and she said at that moment when he said it,

48:03

I took it as, I'll say it,

48:05

the Lord, we're going to get married. This is it.

48:07

So she waited for this kind of supernatural, you

48:10

know, engagement slash arranged marriage. The guy

48:12

meets someone, married somebody in front of

48:14

her. She's a full row seat. And

48:17

she said, it took me out. I

48:19

was devastated. And what we

48:22

related it to was she's a seer. And

48:24

so the idea of once he showed her that

48:26

picture, that's how she God speaks to her in

48:28

her life. She gets pictures of her future. She

48:31

gets pictures of where God's taking her. And

48:33

so when somebody used that language to

48:35

bring her this, it was more devastating

48:37

to her than somebody else who said, great, you had

48:39

a dream. Well, how do you know, you know, or

48:41

great, you had a dream to God tell you, he

48:43

didn't say, God, God didn't say you're

48:46

marrying. Okay. Then it doesn't matter. But to her,

48:48

it mattered. And so for some of us that

48:50

are like listening, even our listeners today, and for

48:52

me personally, I had to go back

48:54

to what was most painful. And

48:56

that was really important for me to discover how

48:58

God was interacting with me. Hmm. You

49:01

know, this brings up something that's so important, right? Which is

49:03

it doesn't even matter what religion you

49:05

are. If there's not a heavy dose

49:07

of humility and a heavy

49:09

dose of, um, maturity,

49:13

humility, discernment, wisdom,

49:15

so much

49:18

damage can get done to people in these

49:20

settings, it's ridiculous. Uh,

49:23

and I've, I've seen it over and

49:25

over and over. I've seen so many

49:27

wounded spiritually, you

49:31

know, just mangled people that,

49:33

um, were

49:36

told something or were had a

49:38

feeling about, so I think

49:40

also, don't you guys have to think like, like

49:43

no matter which of these you are, no matter

49:45

what you hear from God, unless it's I love

49:47

you, right? Um, you have

49:49

to be able to say with

49:52

humility, this is what I'm getting,

49:54

but I could be wrong. Like

49:56

I could be getting this wrong because for

49:58

example, because. as a seven. Let me

50:00

give you an example as a seven. I thought about this when

50:02

we were getting ready for this interview. You're seven

50:05

on the Enneagram. What if all

50:08

you hear is

50:12

or give validation to is, oh, I heard

50:14

God say that I

50:17

should go out and do all the things that I

50:19

want to do that will

50:21

bring me joy. And you know what I'm

50:23

saying? In other words, you're deceiving. You're just deceiving yourself

50:26

on the basis of your personality's bias. I

50:30

totally agree. And I would say this,

50:32

Ian, that I

50:34

have been most encouraged and loved

50:36

by the voice of God from

50:38

somebody else, but also the most

50:40

damaged and abused. Give me an

50:42

example. So

50:45

many years ago, I thought I was supposed

50:48

to go and be on step at this specific

50:50

place. And I had a dream to do it.

50:52

And I was told this is going to be,

50:54

you know, this is the ideal place. And

50:57

I walked in one day to the

50:59

office at that specific church. And

51:02

the lady who was in the front gave me

51:04

this word from God. And she said, I see

51:06

you. You're going to be here. This is going

51:08

to be your platform. You're going to go worldwide.

51:10

And you know, a seven is like, this is

51:12

my lottery ticket. Heck, yeah, I'm going like this

51:14

amazing. So I went home

51:16

and nothing happened.

51:19

They never asked me to be there. I never

51:21

got invited. And then I

51:23

watched them hire somebody just like me.

51:25

And she got the

51:27

platform and she went global. Her,

51:29

she had everything that I thought I was going to

51:31

get from this moment. And I went

51:34

to God and I said, this is

51:36

wrong. How did you, how did she know

51:38

that that was what I wanted prophesied?

51:41

It told it to me. And

51:43

then you never did anything like this

51:45

is, how do you actually rectify that

51:47

God? And he, he took

51:49

me on a journey where he began

51:52

to really reveal the difference between prophetic

51:54

and discernment. And this is a little deeper. So

51:56

for those that are listening, you might just follow

51:58

me for a minute. But

52:00

I think a lot of times in faith

52:03

communities, I mean any kind of community really,

52:05

when you experience

52:07

someone's pain or

52:09

desire or suffering

52:11

or hope, we

52:13

want to prophesy them out of pain.

52:17

We, we sent somebody once to get married. So

52:19

we go, this is your year, sweetheart, you're getting

52:21

married. We sent somebody once a baby, you're going

52:23

to get a baby. I see it. And

52:26

what we're doing is we're discerning that there's

52:28

a desire or a need or a pain

52:30

or, and there is

52:32

a part of our humanity that

52:34

wants to be the hero of the story,

52:37

to give them the good ending rather

52:39

than taking in that

52:42

information. And like you said, first of all,

52:44

asking, do I need to share it? Secondly,

52:47

adding a filter, which I think Ian, you and

52:49

I would both agree, no one, I don't think

52:51

anyone should be saying, that's it, the Lord. I

52:53

think it should be, I sense

52:55

this. I think God might be, because we

52:57

are human. We do not have a proper

52:59

filter. So the fact that we would even

53:01

say that our words are exactly what God

53:03

would say, it gives no God, no out.

53:06

I always say, don't put God in a box,

53:08

thus sayeth the Lord. So either it's right or

53:10

it's wrong. He's either confused or I'm, I'm a messed

53:12

up. Give a filter. I'm a

53:14

human being. I'm, I'm doing my best to hear

53:17

the divine. But what I found with

53:19

this woman is that she discerned a desire in

53:21

my heart and she wanted to give

53:23

me the happy ending. And so what

53:25

I recommend to all of us when we say, I'm

53:27

starting to hear God's voice and I want to start

53:29

to practice hearing it and giving it to others is

53:32

ask yourself, are you trying to be the hero

53:35

to the ending? Or are you just getting some

53:37

discernment and discernment allows us to be empathetic. It

53:40

allows us to pray with them. Maybe even say,

53:42

I sense this might be happening. Is that a

53:44

hope in your heart? You know, I'll be, I'll

53:46

be praying. I'd love to, is there anything I

53:48

can do to help in that space or simply

53:50

God knows this is a desire and he's with

53:53

you in it and leaving it that you don't

53:55

have to give a period to the end of

53:57

it. And so for me, that was very helpful.

54:00

By the way, I would say about sevens.

54:02

This is a very clear thing for sevens,

54:04

right? Like of any of the types

54:07

in my experience one of

54:09

the types that most could

54:11

make this error of trying to

54:13

provide the happy ending is the seven and

54:15

the reason is That when

54:18

they're in the presence of someone else's pain They

54:20

want to fix it not for the sake of

54:23

for the other person's sake honestly It's

54:25

because their pain is causing them pain,

54:27

right? So when the seven

54:29

gets around someone who's in pain, they're like,

54:32

you know what? Your pain is causing me

54:34

pain and I don't do well with pain

54:36

I don't like pain in me and your

54:38

pain is causing me pain So I'm gonna

54:40

fix you as fast as I can so

54:43

that we can all be happy again Not to pile on

54:45

but threes could be don't slow me down With

54:47

this, you know, mm-hmm again

54:50

whenever we start to talk about God

54:52

we talk about God's voice in my

54:54

opinion We are plunged into a profound

54:57

mystery. It is a profound mystery

55:00

and to think that it's simple and it's easy

55:02

and it's the No, it's very

55:05

profound now when you come up with a

55:07

framework like nowhere here or see or feeler

55:09

It's very helpful because it starts a conversation

55:12

Yeah about a profound mystery that none

55:14

of us are gonna get to the

55:16

bottom too But let's just throw some

55:18

words out so we can at least

55:20

begin a conversation Around this but not

55:22

assume. Okay. Well now we have these four

55:24

categories and everybody fits into one neatly Like

55:27

I could I'm active, you know, we could sit

55:29

around have some real fun with this and say

55:31

well Maybe we're all supposed to be all for

55:34

those we over rely on one and don't

55:36

bother to discipline ourselves to try and do

55:38

things like journal like a here or be

55:42

somebody that Here's God

55:44

in a song like a feeler does or does you

55:46

know what I'm saying? Like like are these

55:49

Are these like centers of intelligence in the

55:51

Enneagram are these spiritual centers

55:54

of intelligence that it's like, oh

55:56

wait a minute I'm not so I'm not just

55:58

a seer. I have access to knowing,

56:00

hearing, and feeling. Maybe I need to work

56:02

on opening myself up to God speaking to

56:04

me through those channels as well. I

56:07

love it. I think it's profound. I was going to say

56:09

a similar thing and you kind of nodded at this earlier

56:11

Ian. It makes me think

56:13

of when Jesus was asked what's most important and

56:15

he said to love the Lord your God with

56:18

all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and he

56:20

let us know our spiritual anatomy is made up

56:22

of those four parts, right? And I think the

56:24

only way to live the flourishing life Jesus promises

56:27

for those to be integrated. And I think you're

56:29

cutting yourself, you're doing yourself

56:31

a disservice. The beautiful thing about what you're

56:33

doing here is, oh wow,

56:36

I can hear God in my emotions.

56:38

So that's the gift you're giving. The

56:40

disservice would be to camp

56:43

out there and not grow the other parts.

56:45

Exactly. Wow. Well, and

56:47

also for me, it came down

56:49

to comparison and envy and

56:52

elevating others outside of,

56:55

so in my world, hearers

56:57

and seers were way more elevated than

57:00

a knower. And so then I

57:02

could get into, like you said, Ian, there's certain

57:04

communities where that was enough was to

57:06

know. And

57:09

I thought, and that's wrong because there's

57:11

thousands of people that are in environments

57:13

where knowing is enough. And

57:15

yet in this environment, if I'm not having

57:17

an emotional experience and I don't have what

57:19

it takes, that's what I want.

57:21

I have this passion to say, we

57:24

need to stop elevating one

57:26

way or another and start seeing others

57:28

as unique and diverse and having their

57:31

own way that they interact with God.

57:34

And to allow my husband to not think I'm

57:36

a heathen and for me not to think that

57:38

my husband is more spiritual than he is

57:40

because he cries and worship to

57:42

actually go, no, it's just

57:44

how God interacts. And then

57:46

in the book itself, I'll put

57:48

in the strengths of a knower, the

57:51

constraints of a knower, the weaknesses, and then

57:53

how to grow in that area. So I

57:55

have the whole book is filled with those

57:58

ideas. So I agree with that. with

58:00

both of you, we want to be

58:02

diverse in all those languages. It may not be the

58:04

one, it's like the filter. It's like the Enneagram. If

58:07

I just say I'm a seven deal with it, that

58:10

makes me not a great person.

58:12

And to think that the world sees the world like

58:14

a seven is not true at all. So

58:16

it helps me love

58:19

others, see others. It

58:21

helps me recognize them and to not

58:23

also be arrogant in how

58:25

I interact with the divine. And that's what

58:27

I get tired of specifically in the charismatic

58:29

world is we need to stop putting

58:32

our ego in the connection of how

58:34

God interacts with us because I'm a knower.

58:36

I just know that I know it

58:38

doesn't sound very sexy, but it's

58:40

been enough for me because that's how God interacts

58:42

with me. And my husband is

58:44

a feeler and doesn't mean I lack God

58:47

or I have a hard heart. But

58:50

then again, on the other side, like Anthony, you were saying,

58:52

I need to grow in my

58:54

emotions and that sometimes a seven doesn't want

58:56

to interact with the feeler because it's painful.

58:59

And one of the things that I teach in the book

59:01

is for a feeler and I learned

59:03

this technique, which I love is we pray

59:05

until there's joy again. So sometimes we'll feel

59:07

a burden and we sit with

59:09

it, but God doesn't ask us to just live

59:12

in it, but we can actually continue

59:14

to offer up that suffering and that

59:16

burden as worship. Not that it removes

59:19

all suffering, but it gives us a

59:21

release, which I think people that suffer and we

59:23

need that. We need the release to say, okay,

59:25

I don't have to carry the pain of the

59:27

war. I don't have to carry the pain of

59:29

the economy. I don't have to carry the pain

59:31

of this generation, but I can take it. I

59:33

can carry it and I can give it back

59:35

and say, okay, God, but please help God. You

59:37

make a way where there isn't a way. Heal

59:39

the nation. And so that's really,

59:42

really helpful. There's kind of unhealthy

59:44

knowers and healthy knowers, unhealthy feelers

59:46

and healthy feelers. And that's what

59:48

the book really outlines. An unhealthy

59:50

feeler will take the room with

59:52

them. And we've all known them.

59:54

They just take the room with them. They

59:56

are in it and everyone's going, you know,

59:58

it's like they're, they're weeping Nations and their

1:00:00

husband wants to go to the spaghetti factory, you know, and

1:00:02

it's this whole thing where they're just in it and

1:00:05

yet That you know, not everyone's there or it's that

1:00:07

say it's the Lord and everyone says you are always

1:00:09

that say it's the Lord Can you get to the

1:00:11

point? We're not your mom. We don't care about every

1:00:14

time God speaks to you We want to

1:00:16

know what matters to us. So it's having that awareness To

1:00:19

go. This is my own intimate relationship with Christ and

1:00:21

I get to interact with him. But how can I

1:00:23

be more? Accepting and

1:00:25

diverse in the environment to allow other people

1:00:28

to be safe to have other ways

1:00:30

of interacting with him beautiful All

1:00:33

right, I like this conversation Anthony

1:00:35

and and I you know I

1:00:38

like it because there is what I'm

1:00:40

not hearing are the platitudes

1:00:42

the simplistic

1:00:46

formulaic Kind of

1:00:48

horse crap that we get so often

1:00:50

in the world of faith-based publishing Like

1:00:53

like this is like recognizing okay, this is

1:00:56

complicated but we're gonna begin a conversation by

1:00:58

maybe just suggesting that there are these four

1:01:00

different types of personalities

1:01:02

or people or architectures and They

1:01:05

all hear God differently. It's

1:01:08

not to say that one is any better than the other It's

1:01:10

just that they they they lean in I

1:01:13

I would tend to think that people

1:01:15

contain within them all four of these

1:01:17

different types of ways of hearing

1:01:21

But they just over rely on one

1:01:23

Mm-hmm and that when

1:01:25

they could also develop an appreciation if

1:01:28

at the very least an appreciation But

1:01:30

also maybe some as

1:01:32

you were saying have about being multilingual how

1:01:34

could I how could I open up my

1:01:36

aperture to be to

1:01:38

be available to these different ways of Hearing

1:01:41

from God and to just just play with it

1:01:43

a little bit like just play with it a

1:01:46

little bit See what journaling is

1:01:48

like see what this is like with the gut

1:01:50

is like what you know I again I'm riffing

1:01:52

here But I you're stirring up so many thoughts

1:01:54

in me that I'm having trouble keeping them all

1:01:56

down Like a little popcorn is going off in

1:01:59

my head That's

1:02:01

good. That's what a good book does,

1:02:03

you know. And thank

1:02:05

you. And also, you know, the

1:02:07

love languages, again, not to take that, I

1:02:09

mean, that's a profound concept,

1:02:11

but the prophetic

1:02:13

personalities is less about how

1:02:15

we show up in the world and more about how God shows

1:02:18

up in our world. So that's really important

1:02:20

because if it's just about showing the

1:02:22

world Him, then we're just God's stage

1:02:24

parents. He just wants us to do

1:02:26

things for Him. But if

1:02:28

it's really a relationship with Him, then that's

1:02:30

where these interact. And so I would suggest

1:02:33

we have all four. I really believe that.

1:02:35

But I'd also say you want to build

1:02:37

the one that connects you most with your

1:02:39

creation. Sure. That's the

1:02:41

overarching. And then you'll

1:02:43

probably use all four in your everyday life,

1:02:46

like love languages. I use all of them,

1:02:48

all five love languages in my life for everybody

1:02:50

in all different ways. But if you really

1:02:52

want to get to me, you better give me

1:02:54

some gifts. Yes, I like gifts.

1:02:57

And that's how God interacts with me.

1:02:59

Does that make sense? Like God interacts

1:03:01

by, He leaves me little gifts around

1:03:03

my everyday life to show me His

1:03:05

reality. And it might be that I

1:03:07

look for it in certain ways, but

1:03:09

there are very supernatural ways that He

1:03:11

does that. So that's the goal of

1:03:13

the book is like you said, and

1:03:15

I took me 10 years to write

1:03:17

this book because I was fearful that

1:03:19

it would look like a formula rather

1:03:21

than just a strategy of

1:03:23

something that cannot be contained. Right.

1:03:25

OK, so now, Anthony, pardon me

1:03:28

for a moment. But and

1:03:30

you know, I've had several publishers and I just know that

1:03:32

I just know the world of publishing and I'm going to

1:03:34

out. I'm going to out the world of publishing right now.

1:03:39

It drives me crazy. I'm right now.

1:03:41

I've just finished just wrapping up a

1:03:43

book and we're talking titles with the

1:03:45

publisher. And I swear to gosh,

1:03:47

everything they just want it to be.

1:03:50

Five steps to that. Six

1:03:52

something to this. Eight ways to do

1:03:54

that. And I'm like, you know

1:03:56

what? OK, yeah, OK, let's give it a framework

1:03:58

and. Can we just

1:04:01

stop promising like this is so

1:04:03

complicated. We're just going to have

1:04:05

a conversation here and I am going to present

1:04:07

some frameworks organized

1:04:10

frameworks for people to make

1:04:12

a connection to but understanding that

1:04:14

it's This is so big

1:04:17

And so mysterious and so

1:04:20

profound that whatever I come up

1:04:22

with Is just going to be? Like

1:04:25

i'm just going to give it my best shot

1:04:27

to organize my thoughts, you know um

1:04:29

And and if it opens a conversation

1:04:32

That leads you to a conclusion that

1:04:34

is life giving to you and it's

1:04:36

true Then i've succeeded as an author

1:04:39

But if if you know like the enneagram

1:04:41

look are there nine are there just really

1:04:43

nine personalities? I have no idea I

1:04:46

have no idea. How could I know? Right,

1:04:48

how could I know? Nine personality styles in

1:04:50

the world. I don't know maybe there's 90 and i'm only

1:04:52

naming talking about nine of them You know what? You know

1:04:55

what i'm saying? Like like in other

1:04:57

words, it's like the human personality is

1:04:59

so complex But at least the enneagram gives

1:05:01

us a language to just begin to talk

1:05:03

about the mystery of it Not like this

1:05:05

is to finish this is this and this

1:05:07

is that and there's no there's no other

1:05:09

way of seeing it There's no other way

1:05:11

of experiencing life. It's like no, this is

1:05:13

just a framework. It's a model That's

1:05:16

all it's a model and no model is perfect

1:05:18

Right, but it gets us going in

1:05:20

a in a rich conversation and you have gotten

1:05:22

this going on a rich conversation today That now

1:05:25

must wrap up havala Again,

1:05:27

we have been thrilled to

1:05:29

speak with you about your new book

1:05:31

created to hear god for unique and

1:05:33

proven ways to confidently discern His voice

1:05:35

what a great rich conversation Wow

1:05:39

I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Wow. I'm

1:05:41

honored and I to be honest. I was a little

1:05:43

nervous I was hoping that you would you would get

1:05:45

it and I I really think you Probably there's some

1:05:48

things you said today that I I wish were in

1:05:50

the book We talked about

1:05:52

it. It was excellent. I loved our conversation.

1:05:54

Well, that's because the reason this is the

1:05:56

this but this is exactly You just exactly

1:05:58

said what I always hope good books do

1:06:01

and that is it just it's it starts a

1:06:03

conversation and then you have this conversation with me

1:06:05

and new things come out and then you have

1:06:07

it with someone else oh and I hadn't seen

1:06:09

that angle it's not like the

1:06:12

book is cut no book is completely comprehensive

1:06:14

right it doesn't you can't cover every we just

1:06:17

get the ball rolling and then we hope that

1:06:19

the that the book has

1:06:21

a positive consequence as a result

1:06:23

of its being in the world and then

1:06:25

you know this how books take

1:06:27

on a life of their own they

1:06:29

go places you didn't anticipate they touch they

1:06:31

talk to people in ways you didn't think

1:06:34

would happen and and that that's why when

1:06:36

you finish a book you should just got

1:06:38

to let go of all the outcomes you

1:06:40

don't have any control over how it's going

1:06:42

to be received or used or anyway have

1:06:45

let tell people how to get ahold of

1:06:47

you or learn more about everything

1:06:49

you're doing yeah I'm so excited so

1:06:51

this book is coming

1:06:53

out December 12th I'm excited about it

1:06:55

I know here we go and so

1:06:57

it is on you know everywhere books

1:06:59

are found it's the very first book

1:07:01

I've ever done an audio recording so

1:07:04

I'm really excited about that because I am

1:07:06

you know those that don't actually like to

1:07:08

read but would like to listen it's

1:07:10

my voice you'll hear that but you

1:07:12

can get it anywhere books are found and I'm

1:07:14

have like Cunnington calm it's a long word but

1:07:16

if you google it you'll find me and

1:07:19

all my resources are there but it has

1:07:21

been such an honor it's nice to finally put a

1:07:23

face to Anthony and Ian I know you guys can't

1:07:25

see us on on the podcast

1:07:27

but it's just been a dream of mine

1:07:29

to be on this podcast and you did

1:07:31

not disappoint I'm so excited I have so

1:07:34

many more questions to ask you I'm gonna

1:07:36

hold back it was awesome well for another

1:07:38

time Anthony are you as stoked as I

1:07:40

am? I love it yeah I'm pumped I

1:07:42

mean it's a subject really

1:07:44

close to my heart too so I was

1:07:46

I'm not even a charismatic I'm

1:07:50

an Episcopalian for crying out loud I

1:07:53

wear robes and I have Eucharist and the incense

1:07:56

and candles that's how my Enneagram for

1:07:58

and by the way That's an Enneagram

1:08:01

Four tradition right there, boy.

1:08:03

Pisgapallians and Catholics and Eastern

1:08:05

Orthodox. Oh, we love the

1:08:07

smells and bells and... Oh

1:08:09

yeah. Anthony, you didn't

1:08:11

respond. What do you think you are? Never see your feeler

1:08:13

here. I don't think you said it. Well,

1:08:16

I would say core, I'm a feeler.

1:08:19

But can I say one thing before we

1:08:21

close here? Because it's kind of cool. All

1:08:23

right. Yes. Yeah, it'll take

1:08:25

a minute. But this is

1:08:27

one reason why I do think it's so important

1:08:29

what you said earlier, Ian, because

1:08:31

I'm my core. I'm a feeler

1:08:33

with going by your framework. But

1:08:35

I was reflecting the whole back

1:08:37

half of this conversation. I

1:08:40

remember one time I was flying and

1:08:43

I was doing some work on my computer and this

1:08:45

woman was sitting to my right. And

1:08:47

I had this, I would say, a knowing.

1:08:50

It was sort of into it. God,

1:08:53

you're talking to me. Like, you wanted to say

1:08:55

something to me. So then

1:08:57

I'm just listening and I felt like the Lord said, to

1:09:00

me, I would say, put your computer away. So

1:09:03

I put my computer away and I just sat in

1:09:05

the silence. And I felt

1:09:08

like, well, I would say,

1:09:10

if you were to reverse the conversation, I was feeling

1:09:12

loss, a sense of loss.

1:09:15

Now, I'm so feeling oriented and have

1:09:17

been in the past as a fore

1:09:19

and on your framework. I

1:09:22

felt like a loss of someone. I

1:09:24

would have attached my own story to it and

1:09:26

I would have been running down that road. But

1:09:29

because I sort of expanded who

1:09:31

I am, grown beyond that one

1:09:33

thing, and then even in your

1:09:35

framework, I was sitting there, had that

1:09:38

into it, heard, put

1:09:41

your computer away. I wanna

1:09:43

talk to you. I looked at this woman

1:09:45

next to me and I saw on her forehead,

1:09:47

pain, the

1:09:49

word pain in my mind's eye. And

1:09:52

so I sat there for a minute and I said, we

1:09:54

hadn't spoken, it's been silence all the time. I said, do

1:09:57

you mind if I ask you a question? You

1:09:59

said. No, that's fine. I

1:10:01

said, are you in pain? And

1:10:05

she said, oh my gosh, that's an opener.

1:10:07

That's a conversation opener. And

1:10:10

I said, well, I just

1:10:12

had the sense that you might be – she goes, no,

1:10:14

no, no, no, we were coming from LA. She goes, no,

1:10:16

no, no, I just – I haven't

1:10:18

been home and she starts talking. I haven't been home

1:10:21

in six months and when I left,

1:10:23

I had just broken off an engagement and I

1:10:25

haven't spoken with him or his parents or my parents and

1:10:27

I'm about to see them all. And

1:10:30

she's talking and all of a sudden she stops and she looks at me and she goes,

1:10:32

I guess I am in pain. And

1:10:37

I said, well, I just had a sense that

1:10:39

you might be. I said, can I pray for you?

1:10:41

She goes, here? I said,

1:10:43

yeah. And she

1:10:45

goes, okay. And I just prayed this prayer

1:10:47

of Emmanuel God with us that

1:10:49

she was – that God was

1:10:52

with her and she thought she was headed

1:10:54

to this place all by herself. But

1:10:56

when the plane landed, she knew she wasn't alone. But

1:11:00

I would say in my

1:11:03

past, I would have just got

1:11:05

locked in the feeling of loss.

1:11:07

But there was a bigger thing that God was talking

1:11:10

to me about and because I could get outside of

1:11:12

just the feeling, I was

1:11:14

able to offer her something that helped her

1:11:16

in that moment. So it's beautiful. I

1:11:19

like to say, did you walk in with it? That's

1:11:22

what often God speaks to feelers is, did

1:11:24

you walk in with this or

1:11:26

did you pick it up when you came in

1:11:28

the room? Because that's usually a sign of this,

1:11:30

I didn't come in with this and it just

1:11:32

kind of came on me. And

1:11:35

usually, I would go so far say that

1:11:37

you're getting discernment about something that's happening around

1:11:39

you. And I think a lot

1:11:41

of people take that on as it's

1:11:43

their issue and it's not their issue.

1:11:45

They're sensing pain, fear, anxiety. And

1:11:48

so if you can have some wisdom, like you said,

1:11:50

to listen, I think we can actually

1:11:52

– it doesn't have to be all of ours.

1:11:55

And I think that's really a safe place to land for

1:11:57

a feeler. Beautiful. We

1:12:00

got to go, but it was sure fun talking

1:12:02

to you and any grand tribe

1:12:04

friends family You know what I'm gonna

1:12:06

say. May you have love may you

1:12:08

have joy may you have peace May

1:12:10

you have healing and may you have

1:12:12

rest Until next time

1:12:14

yeah You