0:03

It's such a miracle. The

0:06

man of the queen, the king of the brain.

0:08

Wake up. Wake up.

0:12

The political

0:12

division in the country, undeniably

0:15

deep

0:15

right now. A big question on a lot of

0:17

people's minds. Can Americans come together

0:19

and

0:19

heal. I'm

0:22

Van Jones, and this is

0:24

uncommon ground.

0:29

Welcome back to Uncommon Ground.

0:31

This is a show where we're exploring what it takes

0:34

to make meaningful change. in such a

0:36

divided country. But today, we got a

0:38

special episode. I'm very happy

0:40

about this. We are bringing you a flashback

0:42

from the archives. This is

0:44

narrative four aired audio

0:46

of a conversation that was recorded with my

0:48

friend, the comedian, actor, the

0:51

author, Chelsea Handler. We did this

0:53

way back in two thousand eighteen. This

0:55

before I had the uncommon ground podcast,

0:57

it was actually being done for a

0:59

documentary that Chelsea was doing.

1:02

about race and white privilege. It

1:04

was called Hello Privilege. It's me Chelsea.

1:06

So I was one of the people interviewed for that documentary

1:09

and there's stuff that was

1:11

not in the documentary that

1:13

I wanted you to hear because

1:15

I love the conversation that we have. I love of Chelsea.

1:18

But remember, what you're about to hear

1:20

is two thousand eighteen. Now,

1:22

not that long ago, but it was before COVID.

1:25

This is before the murder of George Floyd.

1:28

This is before the twenty twenty presidential election,

1:30

the answer, and all that kind of stuff. So a

1:32

lot has happened in these past

1:34

four years. But the conversation we

1:36

have is still useful, is

1:39

still constructive, is still incredibly relevant.

1:42

Now because four years ago, I want to contextualize

1:45

a couple of references just to give you a refresher

1:47

course. First, we talk a little bit about

1:49

Brett Kavanaugh. Now today,

1:51

Brett Kavanaugh is a supreme court justice.

1:54

But at that time, in two thousand

1:56

eighteen, Kavanaugh had not

1:58

yet been confirmed. And doctor

2:00

Christine Bosie Ford had just come forward with

2:02

some very serious allegations about

2:04

sexual abuse and misconduct and other stuff

2:06

that happened when they were in high school together

2:09

and also talked about, you know, drinking and

2:11

drug abuse, all that type of stuff. That's relevant

2:14

in this conversation. Also,

2:16

Chelsea makes a reference to barbecue

2:18

Becky. Now, if you don't

2:20

remember, this was a new story

2:23

that went viral in two thousand eighteen.

2:25

There was a white woman in Oakland, California

2:28

who called the police to

2:30

report a few black folks who are barbecuing

2:33

by the lake in Oakland. So

2:35

those are two things that were, you know, little

2:38

bit from the past. Everything else

2:41

we literally could have talked about today.

2:43

It's so relevant. It's so

2:45

timely. And, you know, we obviously

2:47

had a real blast talking to each other,

2:49

I think you're gonna really enjoy this conversation

2:52

with Chelsea Handler right after this quick

2:54

break.

3:07

Okay. So I am doing a documentary

3:10

around white privilege, and I need

3:11

to talk to white people

3:13

about their behavior. and that's my

3:15

people. They have behaviors.

3:17

Okay. Well, can you expand on

3:19

that? because I have no idea

3:21

what you're talking about. I

3:23

think this is a tough conversation for anybody

3:25

because I think

3:27

any human being,

3:29

your own narration of your own story

3:31

is, you're the protagonist against

3:33

a bunch of obstacles overcoming

3:35

them trying to make your life work. And

3:38

the idea that anybody is at actually

3:40

running up the up escalator and

3:43

that there's something helping them along the way.

3:45

It just you know, it's hard to accept because

3:47

it doesn't feel that way. you're always

3:49

more present to the obstacles in

3:51

front of you than the opportunities surrounding

3:53

you. And so it's almost

3:56

like, well, you're taking away my metal. Like,

3:58

I got first place and you're trying to take it

3:59

away from me and I worked hard for that metal.

4:01

But

4:02

it is in fact just a case that

4:04

it's easier for some people than others. and it

4:06

doesn't mean that anybody has it easy. It just means

4:08

that some people can have it easier than others.

4:11

For instance, when I was at law school, I

4:13

went to Yale law school. I

4:14

know you bring it up all the time. It's like I get

4:16

it. I know I didn't go to college. No.

4:19

No. No. I I it's a it's

4:21

a proudest thing in my dad's life.

4:23

that he grew up in a shotgun shot at Orange Mount

4:25

Memphis and his kid got a chance to go to Yale

4:27

law school. And in in his near me, I'm happy to

4:29

raise it. But I saw stuff there.

4:31

that I talk about all the

4:33

time. Oh, Brett Kavanaugh. Well, I mean,

4:35

Brett Kavanaugh was three years ahead of me.

4:37

So

4:37

I saw people like Brett like, the Brett Kavanaugh's of

4:39

the world. I went to school with those people. I

4:42

saw people like Brett Kavanaugh do

4:44

every drug, drink whatever, nor do

4:46

whatever, say whatever, do whatever. Nobody

4:48

ever called the police one

4:50

time.

4:51

on any of those parties

4:53

and yet three blocks away,

4:55

poor black kids in housing project

4:57

had the police call on them every day for

4:59

doing fewer drugs with less money

5:02

than the privileged kids at Yale. And

5:04

even at Yale,

5:06

there

5:06

was a sense that the black kids, we better

5:09

not do any of that stuff because there'd

5:11

be zero tolerance for us. And

5:13

yet the other kids, maybe they weren't gonna go

5:15

to prison. They would go to rehab. The poor

5:17

black kids and housing projects went

5:19

to prison. All of them got arrested.

5:21

They all have criminal records, and many of them went

5:23

to prison. for doing the exact

5:25

same behavior. One set of kids goes to

5:27

prison, the other set of kid winds up on

5:29

the supreme court. Now,

5:31

race has a lot to do with that.

5:33

it's inconceivable that she would

5:35

have, you know, the kinds of debauchery

5:38

that a Brett Kavanaugh was engaged in

5:40

engaged in by an African American kid in that

5:42

same town without there being some consequences.

5:45

The shocking thing for Brett Kavanaugh was

5:47

that there was ever any consequences mean,

5:49

you see him? He was like, hey,

5:51

III worked hard. I

5:54

love to hear you. Don't hear you.

5:56

that's not Yes. Exactly. So privilege

5:59

is not bad. Entitlement

6:00

is bad.

6:02

There's a difference. Privilege, you

6:04

can't help having no privilege. You can't

6:06

help having privilege. It's just a part of the package.

6:08

Everybody kinda gets a certain, you know, certain

6:10

cards dealt to them. Turns

6:12

out, I'm a very privileged person. I'm

6:14

male. I'm heterosexual. I'm

6:17

well educated. I'm well paid. I

6:19

happen to be African American. But on

6:21

the privilege, you know, I got a bunch of

6:23

privilege cards in my deck.

6:25

It's

6:25

the entitlement. It's when

6:27

you then say not only are

6:29

these privileges, I've owed

6:31

this. This is my right.

6:33

How dare you challenge it?

6:36

That's when we have a problem.

6:37

If you have privilege and you acknowledge it,

6:40

great because then you can use it to help other

6:42

people, gain those same privileges.

6:44

My brother privilege, I don't have enough. I'd

6:46

like to have more privilege because I wanna

6:48

use it to help my family and to help others.

6:50

When privilege hurdles

6:52

into entitlement, then

6:54

we've got a big problem. because then you

6:56

have powerful people who think

6:58

they're victims. Powerful people

7:01

who think they're victims are dangerous.

7:03

Yeah. That I mean, that that that's all stuff. I

7:05

think we're all you know, for

7:07

me, I'm learning all about that in the last

7:09

couple of years. It's become so apparent that

7:11

people feel like they have the right to think But what do

7:13

you think the Liberals can be doing

7:15

a better job of with regard

7:17

to white privilege and with regard to

7:20

evening the playing field

7:22

for people of color?

7:25

I was born in in sixty eight. So

7:27

I was a

7:29

part of, like, the first and the last generation

7:32

where people really tried integration.

7:35

I

7:35

was maybe, you know, one or two years

7:38

behind the first truly integrated kindergarten

7:40

class in my home county

7:42

we

7:42

really did grow up together

7:44

that one little pulse

7:46

that I was a part of. And,

7:49

you know,

7:49

Frankly,

7:50

it's a little bit easier for

7:53

some of us, I think. The problem

7:55

you have now is you have a lot of people in

7:57

their twenties and thirties. they've

7:59

really

7:59

never been mixed up together. The

8:02

schools resegregated very quickly into,

8:04

you know, private schools versus public schools.

8:07

and people just don't have as much

8:09

contact with each other. It is

8:11

hard to be a

8:13

champion of somebody in the

8:15

abstract. In

8:16

ninety three, I

8:17

moved to the Bay Area. I moved

8:19

in with a woman named Patty Byrne.

8:22

She was a afro

8:24

patient

8:26

Lesbian quadriplegic. Okay?

8:28

So

8:30

just getting up in the

8:32

morning for her was a massive

8:34

ordeal. I suddenly realize

8:36

myself, if you don't

8:37

have a curb cut, you've got

8:39

to go two blocks out of your way

8:41

to find one. Because this much space with

8:43

a mechanical chair, you can't get up over

8:46

it. I

8:46

am a passionate disability

8:48

rights activist. Why? Because

8:50

of Patty. because I know somebody.

8:52

And then when I moved out of living with

8:54

Patty, I moved

8:55

in with a a lesbian couple,

8:57

Allison

8:57

and Judy. this is in the

9:00

mid nineties. So, you know, even, you

9:02

know, civil unions was radical, let alone

9:04

marriage equality, let alone transgender stuff.

9:06

what they had to go through on a

9:09

regular basis even in San Francisco.

9:11

I said,

9:11

this is ridiculous. And

9:13

I became a passionate person for

9:16

those issues. because of Allison and

9:18

Judy. If you

9:19

don't have a Patty if you don't have an Allison

9:21

and Judy, if you don't know an African American

9:23

who's raising an African American kid in

9:25

this world, it's all

9:26

abstract. So I think

9:28

the most important thing to do is it sounds

9:31

corny it's

9:32

like we gotta diversify our friend set.

9:34

We've gotta begin to ask ourselves

9:36

questions about where do we show up

9:38

and why do we

9:38

show up? there are

9:40

so many white activists and they

9:42

just go and say, well, listen, I'm

9:44

working on my issue and I

9:46

want more diversity on my issue.

9:49

So I'm go and find some brown people and

9:51

bump them in the head and ask them why don't they come

9:53

work on my issue because I want my issue to

9:55

be more diverse. That is

9:57

not the way to do it. Okay?

9:59

The

9:59

way to do it is

10:02

there's

10:02

something wrong with the way I'm doing my work

10:04

because only people who look like me show up.

10:07

Rather

10:07

than go and ask others to aid

10:10

me, let me figure out how I can go and be able to

10:12

help to others. When

10:13

people show up to say, look, I would like

10:15

to be useful, I'll

10:16

set up the chairs. I'll

10:18

stay in the back. I'll write a

10:20

check. I'll stay in the front. How can I be

10:22

useful?

10:23

You begin to develop trust. Then

10:25

it's not so weird. If you've come to ten

10:27

of my events and you say, now when you come

10:29

to one it's not weird for me to say yes to

10:31

come to you. Yeah. That's

10:33

the kind of thing that's not going on with

10:35

progresses. First of all, I don't think that we know each other

10:37

well enough. We talk about each other, when

10:39

we talk to each other, across these different

10:41

lines. And then when somebody decides

10:43

that they're gonna tag them in my group's gonna

10:45

be diverse and they go out and start trying to

10:47

recruit as well, it's hard. It's yeah. It's

10:49

hard. because, like, going up to the barn and starting to come

10:51

sit with, can we sleep together? I think it's

10:53

important. It's like, can you get to know me?

10:55

Could you ask me other questions? You know, like,

10:57

you're you're so agenda driven? that

10:59

it becomes. Uh-huh. Yeah. Almost the caricature

11:01

of itself. So, you know, I

11:03

I think that I

11:05

believe a lot in relationships, personal

11:08

relationships, as the the the

11:10

real only trustworthy foundation for

11:12

real political review. Well, like,

11:13

that's because I know you're friends with

11:15

a lot of conservatives. Like, we've been doing

11:17

outreach for this film

11:18

for to talk to conservatives, to talk to

11:20

people like Ben Shapiro, to talk to people like Cory

11:22

Lewandowski, or or, you know,

11:24

Steve Bannon, people who are, you

11:26

know, part of this kind of upward,

11:28

you know, this movement that's happening.

11:31

And no one wants

11:32

to talk about it. No white conservatives

11:34

wanna talk about white privilege.

11:36

So what's the issue with that? How do

11:38

I get those people? To talk

11:41

about white privilege, I wanna learn more and

11:42

we're talking, it's a white privilege

11:45

is a problem

11:45

among white people, so who better to

11:48

discuss it, yet the people that

11:50

espouse it? Mhmm.

11:52

Well, I'll

11:52

tell you, here's the thing.

11:54

If they

11:55

were doing a documentary and they

11:58

wanted to talk about insane

11:59

PC culture rooting America,

12:02

you might

12:02

not be as enthusiastic about returning that

12:05

phone call. Right? In other words, it's a very

12:07

definition of the problem, white

12:09

privilege. sort of, like,

12:11

the assumption and the conclusion all in

12:13

one. A

12:14

big part of what their deal is

12:16

is the denial of all that. I mean,

12:18

that's a big part of of of

12:21

their of their identity and their cause

12:23

is, as you

12:24

know, I'm not talking, you don't know. But it's just,

12:26

look, Everybody's an individual. Quick

12:29

convention.

12:31

Work

12:31

hard and a workout.

12:33

Anybody who's off of that program is just

12:35

want some freebies. and pity

12:37

and we're not giving it to them.

12:39

They

12:39

think that's a moral position. The most

12:41

important thing is is to remember

12:44

everybody thinks you're the good guy.

12:45

Nobody says, I'm the villain

12:48

in this movie. You know,

12:50

that's not anybody's story. So

12:52

in their view, they say, look.

12:55

if we start going down this road

12:57

of passing out

12:59

pity

12:59

tickets to people based on their

13:02

sob story, in their

13:03

group sob story, even worse,

13:05

they

13:06

won't develop their own individual

13:09

god given talents fully.

13:10

they

13:11

won't develop

13:12

the grit and determination to

13:14

push through, and will create a

13:16

society of entitlement in the other

13:18

direction for the people at the

13:20

bottom. And that's actually immoral because

13:22

it'll make them weaker people. And

13:24

it's it's not and by the way, it's not fair to ask because then

13:26

we gotta do a lot of stuff since we we are in the

13:28

hard way. So for me,

13:29

I think

13:31

in my

13:32

interactions with them,

13:35

I try to figure

13:36

out where is the actual common ground and start

13:38

from there.

13:40

The addiction crisis is common ground.

13:42

The criminal justice system, actually,

13:44

the prison system, which weighs so much taxpayer

13:46

money and creates worse outcomes for everybody.

13:48

That's trying to be common ground

13:50

for people. And then

13:51

just what happens to poor kids?

13:53

in

13:53

Apple, Ashley, Chicago, whatever else,

13:55

that's common grounds. Those are the three areas

13:57

I I always try to start with.

13:59

Addiction,

13:59

convictions

14:00

of people in behind bars

14:02

and poor kids. But it's the last

14:05

domino to fall for

14:07

most white conservatives. to

14:09

really own up to the fact that, you

14:11

know, it's not equal, it's not fair enough. And

14:13

black kids do have worse chances no

14:15

matter how how hard they were. But for

14:17

whatever reason, that's the last I don't know to

14:19

fall. I think a

14:20

lot of people, white people say

14:22

that's not our problem. We're not we're not responsible

14:24

for slavery. Why are we being

14:25

blamed for something that happened, you know,

14:28

and a hundred years ago,

14:29

why is that our problem? Yeah.

14:31

What do you what

14:32

do you say to people like that? Mhmm.

14:34

Well,

14:34

look, I tell you, I

14:36

understand that. And what I would

14:39

say is I

14:40

see things happening that don't have much to

14:42

do with a hundred years here's what I

14:45

have

14:45

noticed. You

14:47

get a

14:48

resume from somebody,

14:49

and their name is Duchennerea

14:52

Jefferson.

14:55

Your initial response isn't, oh,

14:57

great. We need another dosandra or

14:59

Jefferson. Your

15:01

initial response is, well, where the hell this person go

15:03

to school? And why the hell is we hire this

15:05

person? It's one neuron. It fires

15:07

quickly. It doesn't get chance to to say anything

15:09

out loud.

15:11

That's what you gotta take responsibility.

15:13

Right. That that that there are

15:17

micro decisions that we make

15:19

every day

15:21

that didn't

15:23

show up. At the

15:24

end of the year, your micro decisions with

15:27

regard to people of color

15:29

has an impact. Look you're

15:31

hiring? Who's your lawyer? Who's your

15:33

accountant? Who's in your home every day?

15:35

Who's on the wall? It

15:37

has

15:37

an impact? Yeah. Now,

15:39

that

15:39

doesn't mean that you're you're now a member

15:41

of the glucose plan, but is

15:43

to say that we all can take more responsibility

15:45

for those choices and to

15:47

challenge ourselves. And to me,

15:49

Honestly, when I say,

15:51

I think we're selling this wrong,

15:54

the white people. I think

15:56

I hear

15:56

liberal saying white people, here's a

15:58

deal. You

15:59

suck. And because

16:00

you suck, I'm miserable. I

16:02

need you to suck less so I can be happier.

16:04

Would you please sign up? This

16:07

is not a great sales pitch.

16:09

For some reason, there are not millions of

16:11

millions of people lighting up for

16:13

this. I think, for

16:15

me, the sales pitch is different. self

16:16

pitches, you're awesome,

16:18

awesome

16:19

but you're

16:20

about to lose out

16:22

because there's all these other people who

16:24

are also awesome that you don't know how

16:26

to win with. You don't know how to partner

16:29

with and get more cool stuff going for

16:31

yourself. And if you wanna win

16:33

in the next round, there's a

16:34

massive opportunity

16:36

to partner

16:37

with awesome people, but you need some

16:39

some skills you don't have yet. When you get

16:41

those skills gonna be awesome, I think

16:42

it's more important to sell the

16:45

upside.

16:45

of being able to partner with anybody in

16:47

a

16:48

global world,

16:49

and it turns out

16:51

nobody feels oppressed. If

16:53

you say, you're going to the bank.

16:56

You

16:56

want a loan. To

16:57

get the loan, you gotta address this way, talk

17:00

this way, blah blah blah blah. People get

17:02

fine. because there's money there and I want that. So

17:04

I'll do whatever you tell you do. If you

17:05

say, listen,

17:06

in order to work with people of color, in order to

17:08

work with women, you gotta do this and do that.

17:11

I'm impressed This is PCL.

17:14

Somebody's about this. I I don't that's

17:16

because y'all see the value

17:18

of the outcome yet. If somebody says, in order for you to go

17:20

to a top school, you've got to take this test

17:22

and do this thing, whatever. That was fine. It's

17:24

great. because you we've already been socialized

17:26

to see the value. of

17:29

of getting a bank loan or whatever.

17:31

We haven't told people the value.

17:33

I think, partially enough alone

17:35

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Alexa, play the podcast become.

19:01

Okay. So what about

19:03

people like barbecue, Becky? What about

19:06

these people who make

19:07

a, you know, whether it's

19:09

a micro aggression or a bigger

19:12

one, calling the police on black people,

19:14

you know, it happens repeatedly all over those

19:16

country all the time. their

19:18

lives can be destroyed. Yeah. Do

19:20

you think that's appropriate? What what what

19:22

do you think the appropriate measure is for

19:24

that? Because that doesn't feel like

19:26

it's helping us forward either.

19:28

The clap back

19:29

of your life is over.

19:31

Yeah.

19:33

They didn't kill a black person. They acted

19:36

badly and they could learn from that.

19:37

Yeah. I

19:39

have a hard time.

19:40

on this

19:41

bigger question. In other

19:44

words, if

19:45

you're white, you can

19:47

pull out your cell phone and essentially

19:50

order the incarceration

19:52

or assassination of a black person whenever you

19:54

want it. Just that's

19:56

the black person you did something bad.

19:58

and that person minimally can

19:59

get arrested,

20:00

possibly be not possibly killed. That's

20:03

an important power.

20:05

that's what power people to take seriously.

20:07

And when people don't,

20:11

and

20:11

one in a million

20:13

of them winds up getting blowing up

20:15

on

20:16

social media. I struggle

20:18

with it. I don't know

20:19

what other option I've got.

20:22

It's not illegal to call the

20:24

police on somebody you think is committing a

20:26

crime. You know, the person

20:27

deliberately been making a false police

20:30

report. This person robbed my house and they didn't do

20:32

it. But to say, you

20:34

know, I I suspect they're crying. That's

20:36

not illegal.

20:39

So my my problem is, I don't know

20:41

what option the black community has

20:43

being subjected to this when

20:45

there's no there's no legal recourse.

20:47

So the only recourse that we have

20:50

is public exposure and

20:52

shaming. So

20:52

that somebody might eventually feel

20:55

jeez. Maybe I should think twice before

20:57

doing this because these people do have an option.

20:59

So I have a

21:00

hard time

21:02

knowing how

21:03

to deal with it. should the person

21:05

video take the person but then not

21:07

post it?

21:08

Because they're afraid that they may hurt that person,

21:10

but that person's perfectly, you know, the

21:13

next day, may

21:13

do the same behavior again. This is

21:15

the

21:15

kind of

21:18

just set of moral dilemmas. that

21:20

people who want

21:20

justice find ourselves out. So I don't

21:23

have a good answer. Listen. You're an

21:25

African

21:25

American boy.

21:27

everybody thinks

21:27

you're adorable and amazing,

21:31

mostly until you're like

21:33

ten. And

21:35

then

21:35

the name something happens

21:37

and it's like the whole world just turns on

21:39

you. And

21:41

everywhere you

21:42

go, you are presumptively

21:44

a bad guy.

21:47

you have to prove

21:47

that you're not.

21:49

Or if this is a

21:50

screwing this, you just decide I'm gonna be because it

21:52

doesn't matter. I can't win this game.

21:54

And you feel like

21:54

you're going crazy.

21:56

because you

21:56

see white kids go into a store and they

21:58

get treated well and nobody

21:59

buys them and you walk into the store and it's like, what the

22:02

hell are you doing here? It's like, I'm trying to buy a

22:04

Snickers bar. Like, why am I

22:06

being, you

22:06

know, treated this way. And

22:08

it's it's

22:09

a scarring experience and it's a demoralizing

22:12

experience and it's an everyday experience.

22:14

and

22:14

you're constantly afraid that somebody

22:16

is gonna

22:16

bring in the authorities to deal with

22:19

you. They're gonna call the principal,

22:20

they're gonna call the cops or

22:23

not call somebody and you're gonna

22:25

be

22:26

obliterated.

22:27

And so

22:29

that's

22:29

a hard thing for people

22:32

to understand. but

22:32

it's a it's a daily, daily lived

22:35

experience. And

22:37

I

22:37

remember when my son was

22:39

born. I was in

22:39

my mid thirties. And

22:41

in I

22:42

had to go to stores. So I strapped them on. This

22:44

is a little tiny,

22:45

like, burrito sized person,

22:47

and

22:48

I went to a

22:50

store. and everybody

22:51

saw me and they smiled.

22:54

And so first

22:55

time that happens, I was a

22:57

child. that went

22:58

to a store and people were nice to

23:00

me. And I was like, oh,

23:02

well, no, I'm not a drag. This little small person.

23:04

And I was like, I'm not crazy.

23:06

Like, people

23:07

treat me bad.

23:09

So, like, I think

23:11

that having any recourse to be

23:13

able to show this is how we're being treated

23:16

I understand why people post. It

23:18

it was a

23:18

huge knowledge for me

23:21

because they're like,

23:21

well, everybody said they say they're not racist. They

23:23

say it's all over. but

23:25

you have the sneaking suspicion that it's not

23:28

over and

23:28

that you are being treated

23:31

differently.

23:31

And that's why I think

23:34

when people post those videos

23:36

and get so upset is that it's

23:38

just finally some little bit of

23:40

proof that what we go through

23:41

isn't fair. I

23:42

don't know the right answer unless you

23:45

can have this a deeper conversation, which is what what

23:47

I hope

23:47

you're trying to do. I know that you're you're married

23:49

to white woman, you have mixed children.

23:51

I mean, obviously, it's impacted you in every way. But how what what

23:53

are some things that you can share with me

23:56

that are stark observations?

23:58

observational

24:00

Well,

24:00

I have been married to a white

24:02

woman. We're we're separated now,

24:04

but it's been the most incredible

24:06

learning experience in both of us.

24:08

I realize that there's a whole other,

24:10

like,

24:11

culture

24:12

where we don't have to worry about

24:14

white people all the time. you

24:16

can, like, have plans. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like,

24:19

dreams and aspirations and,

24:21

like, knowledge about things. That's a

24:23

really amazing experience. And

24:25

I think that for her, like, I mean,

24:27

she's, you know, she's raising

24:29

two black boys in

24:31

Los Angeles. And I think for her,

24:33

it's just been a transformative

24:36

experience because she

24:38

is constantly having to to fight these

24:41

battles

24:41

of people making the worst possible assumptions about

24:44

our sons. Now, our sons

24:45

are beautiful and they're brilliant and they're amazing. They

24:48

really are not bad kids.

24:50

But

24:51

every other year, there's some

24:53

teacher that's decided that one of our boys

24:55

is the problem kid in the class.

24:57

And it's

24:57

not true. And

24:59

so she's always been liberal

25:01

and anti racist, but it's now it's

25:03

bone deep for her. I mean, it's

25:05

bone deep for her. And

25:06

increasingly, I think she's more

25:09

of the radical

25:12

militant mob. And because I'm

25:14

constantly trying to figure out the other direction, I

25:16

think I'm increasingly more

25:18

understanding

25:18

of how tough it is for

25:20

white people

25:21

to to self

25:22

criticize. Look, it's hard to self

25:25

criticize anyway. No. They

25:26

would say, I did it. It was

25:29

me. So it's a character

25:31

question. Well,

25:31

also, nobody wants to sit there and go, yeah,

25:33

that's racist. I'm I just I'm racist. Right.

25:35

I did this is in your in your system.

25:37

you know, for years and years of everything that

25:40

suggested that you were talking about. Yeah. Nobody

25:42

wants to go. The defense is right

25:44

there at the surface all the time. It's like, no,

25:46

I didn't mean it that way. Like, it doesn't matter how you

25:48

met it. That's how it came across, and that's how it

25:50

landed on the other person. Yeah. And it's a

25:52

skill set

25:52

issue. Do you have how

25:54

many skill sets I had to

25:56

develop? coming

25:56

out of nowhere enrolled West

25:59

Tennessee to be

25:59

able to survive at an Ivy league school

26:02

and survive in the Obama White House and survive

26:04

on in Natural Intelligence. that

26:05

to learn a lot of stuff.

26:08

I just

26:08

want you to learn more stuff. It's just a skill set issue.

26:10

There's a way to say stuff. There's a way to think about stuff

26:12

that will make it easier for you to

26:15

be successful. in

26:15

in having a great life. Here's

26:17

the thing.

26:17

I want white

26:18

people to be more awesome. And

26:20

the only way you

26:21

gotta be more awesome in a world like this is be able

26:23

to deal with more kinds of people.

26:25

And it is racist.

26:29

If you say,

26:29

I'm willing to make all kinds of accommodations to

26:31

deal with these people. and

26:33

I don't complain. The banker,

26:34

the college president. They're all kind of people

26:36

who I see as worthy and I see

26:38

as valuable. I'll make a comment for

26:40

them and I won't complain. I don't even notice it.

26:43

But if I have to make an accommodation for a black person

26:45

or an Hispanic person or for a

26:47

woman, I'm gonna complain.

26:49

Now now we're in the domain of racism

26:52

and sexism.

26:52

because now it's been called to your

26:54

attention

26:55

that just like everything else,

26:57

an adjustment needs to be made and you resent it

26:59

and you hate it.

27:00

That lets me know that you

27:02

are one up in a power hierarchy. And

27:05

when you're one

27:05

up in a power hierarchy, you tend to reset

27:07

the demands to the people below you. When you're

27:09

one down, you tend to respect those demands.

27:11

And

27:12

so you now Lisa Carsten, you know

27:14

you're in a power hierarchy and

27:16

you're being a bloodhead. Don't

27:17

be a bloodhead. Treat everybody

27:20

the same. make the accommodation that will all be fine. Like,

27:22

Francis, if you and I were walking down the street and

27:24

we decided to go get

27:26

a sandwich. and you didn't

27:28

have your wallet. And I bought you

27:29

a sandwich for ten bucks. Ten bucks.

27:31

Ten bucks. I bought you a ten

27:34

dollar sandwich. A

27:37

week

27:37

later, you wouldn't even remember.

27:40

If

27:40

the while we are eating the sandwich,

27:42

do you notice I'm stealing a dollar from you

27:44

out of

27:44

your purse? you will

27:46

not only, you know, get up

27:48

and leave twenty

27:50

years from now, you'll say, Dan Jones stole the door

27:52

for me. Now look,

27:53

You're up nine. You're

27:55

up nine bucks. And because

27:57

it might take just the same way to look at it.

27:59

Right? I'm just saying about this. I'm just saying, like

28:02

like, but just think about that. losing one

28:04

dollar, you remember for

28:05

twenty years, gaining ten

28:07

dollars, you won't remember for two days.

28:10

Loss is

28:11

hard.

28:12

Any

28:13

perception of loss for the human

28:15

brain is hard and is memorable.

28:17

Gain, people

28:18

don't appreciate loss, people

28:21

do register. And so

28:22

I think it's important for us now.

28:24

We are asking why people do stuff that's emotionally

28:26

hard. We're asking people

28:27

do people do stuff that's psychologically hard.

28:29

Doesn't mean they get to not do it.

28:32

But it does mean that the way that we

28:34

approach people, when you ask somebody to pick up

28:36

a one pound dumbbell,

28:37

it's it's one kind of request. If it's fifty pounds

28:39

or a hundred pounds, it's a different kind of request.

28:42

You still gotta pick it

28:42

up. It's a different kind of

28:44

request. I do think we're asking people

28:46

to do stuff that's emotionally, it's like largely

28:49

hard. and they have to do it, but

28:50

it's hard. You will say, well, you

28:51

can't say that. You're coddling them.

28:54

You're coddling the white fragility. Oh,

28:56

wow. I'm not trying

28:57

to cuddle anybody. I wanna challenge

29:00

people, but I wanna challenge people in a way

29:02

that honors the fact that it's

29:04

not easy to do what I'm asking them

29:06

to do. even though I insist that they

29:08

do it. Do you have any

29:09

advice for translation speakers on

29:11

this journey? I think you're doing great. How

29:13

do I not get in trouble with black

29:15

people. I've only shot one day and I already did something where

29:17

I got in trouble. You can't

29:19

get in

29:19

trouble. That's okay. I'm getting

29:21

in trouble. Here's here's

29:22

the thing.

29:24

Somebody has to take

29:26

risks in this country.

29:28

I am so

29:29

sick of everybody

29:31

playing their little corners doing

29:34

whatever

29:34

their little tribe told them was cool

29:37

yesterday. And by the way, it changes every day. They

29:39

move the bull posts every day, so you can't

29:41

possibly keep up. I I

29:43

go to the Trump White House once a week

29:45

to try to get something done for federal

29:47

prisons for for human beings who are incarcerated

29:49

in our federal system. I've

29:51

been called

29:51

every name in the book by Liberals. Uncle

29:54

Tom

29:55

in the sunken place, all

29:58

this stuff. I haven't

29:59

met a single

29:59

person in federal prison called me on uncle

30:02

Tom, but I'm in there fighting for them. Mhmm.

30:04

They're saying, thank you. And could you do

30:06

it more? there will

30:07

be somebody whose white his man

30:10

used, black his man used, whatever. There's gonna

30:12

be a lot more people who are gonna be like, you know

30:14

what? I never thought about that.

30:15

I was, oh, you

30:16

know what? I didn't know

30:18

that. You know what?

30:19

I'm gonna share it to my

30:21

friend. The

30:21

good that you do is not gonna

30:23

be rewarded immediately.

30:25

whatever goal of

30:25

mistaking make will be pounced on immediately, and

30:28

that's how everybody's being disciplined in this

30:30

dysfunction. We're being disciplined into

30:32

a level of dysfunction because

30:34

the

30:34

grace that the liberals say that they

30:37

have is gone.

30:39

We're supposed to be the people with a big

30:41

hearted open mind and loving for giving people.

30:43

We become what we're fighting. That's the

30:45

danger with the liberals. We are becoming

30:47

what we're finding. We're becoming

30:50

our

30:51

intolerant,

30:52

victims,

30:54

who don't take responsibility for our

30:56

own power. That's what

30:57

Trump is. He's an endowment victim who

30:59

takes responsibility. But now we're becoming

31:02

that way. And the main way we don't take responsibility for our power

31:04

is as a black

31:05

person, I can hurt you because

31:06

you're living

31:07

with you here. Your words are you with me. I

31:09

can hurt you. If I call if I

31:10

if you're a race and I say you're a race and you say, uh-huh. See

31:12

you're just playing the race card, and you'll go on with your

31:14

life. We won't have you at all.

31:17

If

31:17

you're a liberal and I say you're racist, you'll think about it for

31:19

the next twenty years,

31:21

I've got power

31:22

got our to

31:23

hurt you. that I've

31:25

got to take responsibility for. But I don't

31:27

wanna hurt you. I don't want

31:29

to leave you

31:32

damaged

31:32

because I've been damaged.

31:34

And this is where we've gotten

31:37

lost. oppressed

31:38

people have a responsibility

31:40

to our oppressors. Nobody wants to

31:42

talk about that anymore. That

31:43

was doctor King, that was Mandela, that

31:46

was Gody.

31:47

Now I said, I got no responsibility

31:49

for anything but my upset.

31:50

I'm upset and fuck you.

31:52

That's it. And

31:54

as long as everybody has that point

31:56

of view, the Trump's win

31:58

because that's

31:59

his game. Yeah.

32:00

That's his game. And

32:02

so you're doing something that's really

32:05

important.

32:05

You're you're sticking your neck out.

32:07

You're going to get

32:09

misunderstood. there

32:11

are people who who have podcasts

32:13

and blogs who are just gonna attack you for

32:15

being a white girl who did it

32:17

wrong. That's

32:17

in the contract. It's not even a fine

32:19

friend. It's in bold print, and you sign

32:21

it anyway. And that's a good thing.

32:23

Great.

32:23

Thank you, Ben. Alrighty. Thank

32:26

you.

32:28

We see the beauty of

32:31

hope. That spirit

32:33

is so beautiful.

32:35

Those who become American citizens

32:38

love this country even more,

32:40

and that's why the Statue of Liberty

32:42

lifts her lamp to welcome them

32:44

to the go and

32:48

go.

32:53

I'm really glad

32:55

I

32:55

got to share that conversation with you,

32:57

and I'm also really grateful to

33:00

Chelsea Handler. Just for taking a chance, you know, raising

33:02

her hand, you know, trying to use

33:04

her platform to start a tough

33:07

conversation. And

33:09

what's amazing to me is that

33:11

was four years ago. That was two

33:13

thousand and eighteen. And, you

33:15

know, we're still trying to make a difference

33:18

topics and you're talking about, you know, race and

33:20

and privilege that stuff is just as relevant today

33:22

as it was four years ago. One of

33:24

the things I said in passing,

33:26

which I wanna just come back

33:29

around to, is this thing I

33:31

said about oppressed

33:33

people having responsibility to our

33:35

oppressors. That's really

33:37

out of fashion and really talking to a lot of

33:39

people. But I wanna underscore

33:42

because it's a really important principle

33:45

that is at the core of

33:47

what Nelson Mandela was about.

33:49

So a core of what Gandhi was about,

33:51

the core of what Dr. King and

33:53

Benny Lou Haymer and Ella Joe Baker and

33:55

all those folks. A lot of the anti

33:58

colonial anti racist movements

34:00

in the last century

34:02

had this really powerful

34:05

principle, which is we're just

34:07

not gonna become the that we're finding. They've

34:09

been hateful and terrible to us. We're not gonna be hateful and terrible to them. We're

34:11

gonna stick up for ourselves. We're not gonna let

34:13

ourselves be dehumanized. That comes

34:15

to an end. but we're not going to

34:17

dehumanize anybody else. And that

34:20

was the miraculous genius

34:22

of those

34:24

movements. is that people who

34:26

were being literally beaten and tortured, sometimes

34:28

raped, lynched, sometimes burned

34:30

alive, refused to become the

34:34

the evil that they were fighting refused and said

34:37

we are literally fighting for our

34:39

souls in yours as well.

34:41

We're we're trying to redeem of the

34:44

oppressed and the oppressors.

34:46

We're trying to free the jail and the

34:48

jailers. Now This is

34:50

a miracle in human history.

34:52

That is not the norm.

34:54

The norm for ten thousand

34:56

years was i for an i. Tooth for tooth, you hurt me. I'm

34:58

gonna hurt you. And there's

35:00

no reason in the world for subjugated

35:02

people in the last century to have any

35:04

other view.

35:06

but a lot did. And we

35:08

celebrate those people. We recognize those people.

35:10

They're not all nonviolent. You know, Nelson

35:13

Mandela had an army. called

35:16

Uncanto was his way, Spirit of the Nation,

35:18

he was in jail, not because he was a

35:20

nonviolent guy, like, Gandhi was in in

35:22

jail for

35:24

sabotage, and and and planning an armed

35:26

interruption, but even with an army at his back, he

35:28

refused to dehumanize

35:30

the white South Africans He,

35:33

in fact, insisted that they be

35:35

a part of his government when he

35:37

formed it, literally

35:38

put his jailer in

35:41

his cabinet to clerk. as his vice president, one

35:43

of his vice president. This is the kind of stuff

35:46

that will be talked about a thousand

35:47

years from now if we have

35:49

a human civilization. And I don't

35:51

care how

35:52

unfashionable it is

35:53

in today's kind of cancel culture

35:56

world where somebody said

35:58

something

35:59

off color, on a tweet ten years ago and we're supposed to write them off and hate

36:02

them and, you know, why should we have any sympathy

36:04

for the white guys and, you know, they have

36:06

everything, all that kind

36:08

of stuff. if people

36:10

who were being treated

36:12

the way that

36:14

subjugated

36:14

people in Africa

36:16

and Asia Latin America around the world

36:18

were being treated in the middle of the last century. If

36:20

they could stand up with the kind of grace that they

36:22

stood up with and try

36:24

to redeem the soul of whole

36:26

nations and not

36:28

just stick up for their their own

36:30

narrow interests in the face of

36:32

what they had deal with,

36:33

dogs, belly clubs, and guns, and

36:36

everything else. I

36:36

just think that we can at

36:38

least honor them enough to try

36:40

to have the same kind of approach.

36:42

And I just wanted

36:44

to

36:46

say,

36:46

I appreciate folks

36:48

like Chelsea who are willing

36:52

to show

36:54

some vulnerability. try something hard. And

36:56

I think that those of us

36:58

who are pushing from the

37:00

other

37:00

side in the other

37:02

direction do ourselves, I think, our greatest service

37:04

and do our ancestors the greatest

37:06

compliment when we meet grace

37:09

with grace. when

37:10

we

37:11

meet lack of grace matter what anybody does,

37:13

we

37:13

proceed with grace because who we

37:15

are as human beings is

37:16

not in the hands of our oppressors is

37:19

in the hands. of ourselves and

37:21

and for the benefit of our children. So I hope to see you

37:24

in the next episode. This is Dan

37:26

Jones for

37:28

Uncommon Ground. Uncommon

37:30

ground with Dan Jones as an Amazon original

37:32

production. It's produced by magic

37:34

labs media and Wonder Media Network.

37:37

Our producers are Teddy Alexander,

37:39

Maisha Dyson, Grace Lynch,

37:41

Taylor Williamson, Adaysua, Agba

37:44

Nile, and Lindsay Credible. Our managing

37:46

producers are Laura Dee and Eliza

37:48

Mills. Our executive producers are

37:50

Jenny Kaplan and Morgan Jones.

37:52

Our theme music was composed by The

37:54

Grand Mess. publicity for the

37:56

show is led by Alice

37:58

Zoe, Andy Licht andfell, Didier

37:59

Morese, Chantal Fuentes, and

38:02

Sam Pepperbridge, Special thanks

38:04

to Janet Carter, Alex

38:06

John Burns, seven McDonald,

38:08

Drew Swindeman, Rihanna Jones,

38:10

Eric Carter, Trevor McNeil, Kerry

38:12

McKaren, Joe McMillan, Steph

38:14

Joaquin, Vanessa Reppert, Ty

38:16

Jacobson, Marshall Louie, and

38:20

Chris Jackemon.