0:03

It's such a miracle. The

0:06

man of the queen, the king of the brain.

0:08

Wake up. Wake up. Wake up.

0:12

The political

0:12

division in the country, undeniably,

0:15

deep

0:15

right now. A big question on a lot of

0:17

people's minds. Can Americans come together

0:19

and

0:19

heal. I'm

0:22

Van Jones, and this is

0:24

uncommon ground.

0:28

Welcome

0:30

back to Uncommon Ground. This is show where

0:32

we are exploring what it takes to make

0:34

meaningful change in the country as divided

0:36

as our country has become Now

0:38

look, from the beginning of this show, I have tried

0:40

to bring you voices and

0:43

perspectives of all kind

0:45

of people. All kind of people from a range

0:47

of different opinions, different backgrounds, different

0:49

beliefs. Some of the people that I've brought

0:51

on this program you've heard of,

0:53

some of them you have not. Today,

0:56

I'm bringing you a very big

0:58

name. It's Matt Schlap. Now,

1:00

he is one of the big conservative

1:03

voices in the country, one of the biggest

1:05

conservative voices in the world, honestly. And

1:07

he leaves one of most important conservative

1:10

organizations on the planet the American

1:12

Conservative Union. It's also the chairman

1:14

of the Conservative political action

1:17

coalition or CPAC. And

1:19

so you can Google CPAC and see

1:22

that he is a part of and in the middle

1:24

of every conservative and

1:26

right wing movement, not just the United States

1:28

but around the world. Now, if

1:31

you've heard a match lap and you are

1:33

a liberal or progressive or a Democrat,

1:36

like me, you probably

1:38

mostly only heard all bad stuff or

1:40

we would consider the bad stuff, particularly

1:42

because he did choose to stand

1:45

with Donald Trump in raising

1:47

concerns about the last election. On

1:49

the left, we would call him a purveyor of

1:51

the big lie. That's how we see that

1:53

position. and, you know, he's

1:55

been tough on a number of issues, and he and

1:57

I disagree on most of them.

1:59

But I know the guy.

2:01

actually no

2:04

match lap. He and I have worked closely

2:06

together on criminal justice reform. We've

2:08

actually helped to save the life of some he

2:10

was on death row who's gonna be put to death and

2:12

shouldn't have been. He cares about

2:14

the justice system because it's a part of his commitment

2:17

to Liberty and Justice for all, as he would

2:19

say. And he encourages people in his

2:21

party to do the same. There's a lot

2:23

of hatred, there's a lot of violence. I don't think

2:25

we talk about that enough. There's a lot of violence

2:27

I think the violence I'm

2:29

sadly I don't I don't see ebbing

2:31

anytime soon. And I really worry

2:33

about that. How do we find what what we have

2:35

in common again? had, how

2:37

do we find a national

2:39

purpose? You know, with all the diversity

2:41

and everything else, how do we find that again?

2:43

And I think it's important for

2:46

us as this uncommon ground

2:48

community to actually to listen

2:50

to and hear from people

2:52

who they're public profile of public

2:55

persona may give you one impression,

2:57

but I want you to have a more nuanced

2:59

view. And it's not because

3:01

I agree with match lab.

3:03

As you will see, we don't agree, but

3:06

it's because there's something more important

3:09

in a democracy. than just agreement

3:12

and disagreement. You're supposed

3:14

to disagree in a democracy. In

3:16

a dictatorship, you can't That's the

3:18

whole point. of freedom is

3:20

you you get to disagree with each other. But

3:23

the key is you also have to understand each

3:25

other. You gotta try

3:27

to understand what other person's coming from

3:29

even as you disagree, even as

3:32

you vote against him, even as you march against

3:34

him, you still need to have an understanding

3:36

of where are these folks coming from?

3:39

Why are they coming from that place? And I don't

3:41

think there's anybody on the American

3:43

right who is more important for

3:46

progresses and independence and others

3:48

to understand than someone

3:50

who wield the influence of a

3:52

match lap. You'll hear from him after this

3:54

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5:22

Match slap. Good to see you, brother. Welcome to Uncommon

5:24

Ground. Great to be with you, man. you

5:26

know, the last time we were together

5:28

in public, I was at CPAC, but we

5:30

both caught some flag from that, but I think we had a good

5:32

time together. But the last time I actually

5:34

saw you we were in a prison

5:37

in Pennsylvania trying to help people

5:39

behind bars turn their lives around. That's

5:41

right. CPAC prison, which

5:44

was kind of a crazy sounding idea

5:46

and then everyone took credit for it after we

5:48

did it because it was it was quite a memorable

5:50

experience. And for me, I I marked that in my

5:52

life as one of the the last great

5:54

moments, you know, when we had that big

5:56

bipartisan coalition working

5:58

on criminal justice stuff and at a very, very

6:00

high level. And I think a lot of people

6:02

probably don't know that about you. You take this

6:04

stuff very personally. You show up behind

6:06

the scenes. And I'm

6:08

very scared about the country

6:10

coming apart I want to give you a

6:12

chance to say just who you are, where you're from,

6:14

where you grow up, and your your everybody here's your

6:16

name. It's like, you you have no origin

6:18

story though for people on the progress side. And

6:20

then I wanted to just bump through some issues to see

6:22

if we might find it's not common ground. Just

6:24

a little bit better understanding of each other.

6:26

Why we seem to be coming apart? I welcome

6:28

the opportunity, Van. I consider you a friend. I

6:30

think we probably do disagree on a ton of

6:32

things, but there's a human decency that

6:34

connects people and politics that

6:37

we can't forget. And I think there's almost

6:39

an intentional desire to forget

6:41

anything that brings us together, any

6:43

bonds. So if the extent to which

6:45

we can put some of that to the side,

6:47

I think, would be really useful. I'm not

6:50

probably not very articulate. I'm talking about

6:52

myself. I I kinda grew up all over

6:54

the country. I was born in Cleveland. I was

6:56

raised in Houston. I was an oiler spanned

6:58

as a kid. Burnsville,

7:01

New Jersey. And then finally,

7:03

I ended up in Kansas. And which doc

7:05

Kansas? I consider Kansas my

7:07

home. you know, I had

7:09

a a little bit of an interesting childhood.

7:11

My father died in his forties. He

7:13

was an alcoholic. He he

7:15

had been successful but kinda fizzled

7:17

out in life. He and I did not have a good relationship.

7:20

And I always kinda had to figure out

7:22

my own way And so

7:24

I'm probably too prideful

7:27

over the fact that I've

7:29

developed into the man I am. Praised

7:31

the wrong word. My

7:33

Biblical teaching. I know that that's a

7:35

that's a deadly sin, but I I'd

7:37

certainly take stock of

7:39

the fact that I've had to create

7:41

a life for myself in many ways

7:43

and take care of the people that I love.

7:46

And I think that kind of self reliance,

7:48

even though God's a big part of that, is

7:50

an important part of who I am. And

7:52

one of the reasons why I get

7:54

so chafed about the politics of

7:56

today is everybody's always trying to ascribe

7:58

to me the worst motives when I

8:00

actually think throughout my life, I've tried to be

8:02

there for my loved ones, try to take care of

8:04

people. tried to be decent, and

8:06

I think that's more important than anything that

8:08

comes in politics. And so

8:10

I'm probably too thin skinned when

8:12

it comes to some of these things get thrown around,

8:14

the isms and everything else that get thrown in

8:16

your face because it hurts. It

8:18

really If it didn't bother you, you

8:20

wouldn't care. but it it it's worrisome,

8:22

you know, and I don't like it. You know, I think

8:24

a lot of people in public life,

8:26

people have no idea, you know,

8:28

where we come from. They have no idea

8:31

why we do what we do. We just

8:33

become either, you know, people to give applause

8:35

to or just images on people's

8:37

artboard. you know, your your life is

8:39

interesting. You go through these challenges and it

8:41

helps build you into the person

8:43

you are. I think I am people

8:45

are surprised because I'm pretty amiable in

8:47

friendly, but I'm I'm stubborn

8:49

as a, you know, a wall of rock

8:51

on certain things and most of that is

8:53

because that's how I those are those

8:55

are the the kind of tactics I had

8:57

to develop to survive as

9:00

a child and and

9:02

kinda get to where I am. And it's

9:04

funny because my sister always get so mad at Twitter

9:06

when people say these really terrible

9:08

things and she's like, you don't know the

9:10

first thing about who my brother is that I

9:12

always tell her it's like, SIS, give it a

9:14

wrap. Oh, go to Twitter to

9:16

try to seek justice. Hey,

9:19

I've I've got a twin sister. She's the same

9:21

way. She gets so mad. But, you know,

9:23

I think you you mentioned the isms or whatever. I

9:25

mean, you get you get called everything out of the

9:27

sun. White Supremacist, white nationalists,

9:29

all these different things. Why does it

9:31

bother you? because of a conflict with my dad,

9:33

because that was one of the things we had conflict

9:35

over. He was from a generation where he probably

9:37

had more Archie bunker views

9:39

on questions of race and differences

9:41

culturally. You know, he was a New

9:43

Yorker and he was tribal

9:45

and

9:46

he was for his tribe and the other

9:48

tribes weren't as good and I mean, that racially

9:50

and religiously and ethnically.

9:52

And he and I had a lot of division over

9:54

that. And I remember getting the big fights

9:56

around the Christmas date

9:59

table and the Thanksgiving table, and he'd

10:01

have his jokes, which I didn't think were

10:03

funny. And, you know, so it's, like, that's

10:05

just too high as part of who I

10:07

am. And maybe that's generational.

10:09

Maybe that's just because of what

10:11

my faith taught me. But, you know, what I realized

10:13

today is for too many people, it

10:15

doesn't matter.

10:16

what you think in your heart,

10:18

what

10:18

matters is what you look like and what they can

10:21

land Puna as. And I always used to say

10:23

to folks like when places like CNN

10:25

and MSNBCs to ask me to be on it, I

10:27

was on in many cases daily

10:29

for years. And I always used to

10:31

say, they don't just want white. They want, like,

10:33

really white. Like, white hair. These

10:35

wear white shirt. You know, it's,

10:37

like, and go full on and

10:39

go full on the sky as wide as possible

10:42

because it it's an easy thing to lampoon

10:44

your your punchy white

10:46

haired you

10:49

know, pink skin guy and we're

10:51

gonna need to say what's in your heart.

10:53

And I just think one of the things I

10:55

admire about you is the fact that

10:57

for whatever reason, you've had a really good

10:59

career, which is great. But the

11:01

you seem to be beyond where a lot

11:03

of people can't get beyond, which is

11:05

I gotta get more Twitter followers or I gotta be

11:08

clever in my response. I probably

11:10

fall victim of trying to still stay

11:12

in that world. And I really will try to do

11:14

the right thing. Why is that? Well, because

11:16

you wanna look at myself in the mirror, I

11:18

wanna be proud of what I look at, and I want

11:20

my kids to be proud of what they

11:22

look at. And when I fall short of that and

11:24

I do, I don't feel very good about myself. So I

11:26

think it's kinda basic. I think it's simple. Part

11:28

of the reason I wanted to have you on is,

11:30

you know, I do know

11:32

you. And yet, we we vote different. We

11:34

see things different. And the part part of the

11:36

value I've had in our friendship is

11:39

you help me understand how

11:42

folks on the other side feel about stuff.

11:44

You know, the things that that your

11:46

team is not just mad about, but even

11:48

scared about, and that

11:50

helps me do my job a little

11:52

bit better. So part of what I wanna do is

11:54

just to give you the opportunity.

11:57

So for instance, some of the stuff that that's in

11:59

the news you know, say the the rate on

12:01

Marlago. Okay. Now by the time this

12:03

ears, we'll we'll know a lot more.

12:05

But when that went down,

12:08

On my side of the table, I think

12:10

we felt like, well, I mean, I worked in

12:12

White House, so I left with the budget stuff. They come to

12:14

my house, but it landed very

12:16

differently. I think for the

12:18

conservatives. I think I heard conservatives talking about

12:20

Gestapo. I heard conservative talking

12:22

about a lot of stuff. When something like that

12:24

happens, you know, former president gets

12:26

raided. how does that

12:28

land for you personally and and and that

12:30

the people that you care about? And

12:32

and and how would you prefer personally like

12:34

that like that you have? Conservatives

12:36

are very, very concerned

12:38

with kind of a police state

12:40

and the power of the

12:42

government to kind of just mess up your life

12:44

Willie Nilly. And they they're very

12:47

strong into protections when

12:49

it comes to those things. You know, conservatives

12:52

believe that eventually things will get so bad

12:54

where because of their political

12:56

views, they they all find themselves

12:58

on the wrong side of the

13:00

law. And I think that for

13:02

Republicans. And that's a different universe than

13:04

conservatives. I mean, let me be clear,

13:06

you know, it's not all the same. The

13:08

belief was that because

13:10

the national government's based in Washington

13:12

DC, almost all of the federal

13:14

prosecutions take place in Washington

13:16

DC, and then Of course, you have this southern

13:18

district of New York in these places. You know,

13:20

they're just no longer favorable,

13:22

but specifically in the swamp in this area where I

13:24

live, I I'd be honest with you, I think they

13:26

could indict me for almost anything they

13:28

wanted to if they really wanted to. And that's

13:30

scary. It shouldn't be that way in this country.

13:32

And I think It shouldn't be because of your

13:34

politics. When you say you're scared about

13:36

your country, you for me, if you

13:38

wanna put your finger on what I'm the most

13:40

scared about, is that there's a

13:42

increasing desperation from

13:44

a lot of red state people that they

13:47

can't get fairness from their

13:49

government. And when the government does, look, you

13:51

can like Trump or don't like Trump. I know

13:53

for you, you dealt

13:55

with Trump on issues that you could find

13:57

you know, common ground on like you're talking about.

13:59

And you took a lot of guff because you

14:01

were willing to say, okay, I can go over there and try

14:04

to get the thing done that I want done with

14:06

this guy who people hate. But, you

14:08

know, you can't hate a guy so

14:10

much that you would do

14:12

things with police power that you wouldn't do with

14:14

someone else. So you can have Hillary Clinton

14:16

or Barack Obama taken information

14:18

they shouldn't have taken. They didn't have the proper

14:20

custody and information. everyone says, oh, this must

14:22

have been mistakes, and she wasn't trying to

14:24

do anything wrong. She's certainly not, you

14:26

know, involved in espionage or

14:28

anything like that. So, like, you know, you try to get the documents back.

14:30

You try to figure out is there a way to recreate

14:32

the record. Hillary Clinton

14:34

famously was looked at by James Comey. You

14:36

know, the left and the right, they might have

14:38

a lot of commonality on whether James Kony

14:41

handled that right, because the Lucer looked bad

14:43

from my point of view. He seemed pretty hand

14:45

handed to me on how he handled it. in the

14:47

end, he was trying to make a point

14:49

that she had done some things wrong with the chain

14:51

of custody of these things. But

14:53

he knew he wanted to be shy of

14:55

indicting her especially why she's running

14:57

for president. And this is the one of the things

14:59

we've lost with humility, which is there

15:01

should be a humility about the federal government

15:03

in certain areas too. And one of them is, look, if you

15:05

run for president, or if you've been

15:07

president, we ought to be awfully careful before it looks

15:09

like we're just going after the guy who's no longer

15:11

in power because that's what they do in these third

15:13

world countries one of the reasons why these people

15:15

run for president forever fan is because when they stopped

15:17

running for president, they were put in

15:19

prison. And I

15:21

think America's starting to look like that. We were chanting

15:23

locker up to her. They're chanting

15:25

lock him up to Trump. Are

15:27

we gonna get to the point with the loser of

15:29

the election? is gonna soon to be

15:31

indicted by that next, you know,

15:33

attorney general. That is that that is not a

15:35

good place for this country. So look, the the

15:37

reason I wanted you say all that especially,

15:39

you know, the comparisons between,

15:41

you know, he'll be Clinton in her server or

15:43

whatever versus Donald Trump is I

15:46

think a lot of people who are liberals and

15:48

progressives, you don't hear that

15:50

comparison. In other words,

15:52

what you're saying is you think there's

15:54

an unfair justice system. You

15:56

feel that you might be targeted by

15:58

it. You're seeing some things that

15:59

seem hypocritical to you. and

16:01

that makes you worry, like, hey, where's this

16:04

going? And that resonates with a lot of stuff that

16:06

we say on our side. I'll be honest with you.

16:08

Let me tell you where I think I'm going. I

16:10

think there's a decent chance I'll be in

16:12

prison. I really do. I think if I continue on

16:14

this course and if I've seen as

16:16

kind of a pugnacious conservative, and

16:18

I live in a blue jurisdiction.

16:21

I think it's a matter of time

16:23

before, you know, they really want

16:25

to get me find can find something on

16:27

everyone. You know, there's that famous colleague

16:29

of Stalin who said,

16:31

show me the man, I'll find the crime. I mean,

16:33

that's kind of where we are. So once

16:35

again, it goes back to this idea of

16:37

what's the commonality on

16:39

a criminal justice system that's out of whack

16:42

is it's not just maybe

16:44

poor people in cities

16:46

that can be a victim of it.

16:48

Anybody who runs a foul of

16:50

overpowering Leviathan can be the

16:52

victim of it. And I think we're in a very,

16:54

very dangerous position where I don't

16:56

think it's getting better as good of is

16:58

the work as you've done. I think it's getting worse. I

17:00

mean, I think we have some real achievements on

17:02

criminal justice form, especially at the state level. I think

17:04

it's still rolling. But, man, I just I

17:06

think at the federal level, we are in

17:08

a dangerous place. I see

17:10

it somewhat differently in that

17:12

I mean, what's missing from your story if

17:14

you're progressive with missing from your story is found

17:17

Trump taking responsibility for

17:19

his side of it. In other words,

17:21

I think conservatives in general believe a lot of

17:23

personal responsibility, that kind of stuff. And in

17:25

this situation, Trump has done

17:27

stuff that, you know, you can

17:29

draw some distinctions between what he did and what hill what

17:31

Hilli Clinton did. Or how do you know what the truth is?

17:33

That's the other piece, which is

17:35

we used to have common idea

17:37

of truth. There was real journalism. You could

17:39

kinda I think it's broken up. So, like,

17:41

where do you Yeah. You know, how do you get that

17:43

the boss and strikes. Right? How do I even

17:46

know Van? How do I know what's in those

17:48

ten legal boxes of

17:50

documents? How do you know it even? Well,

17:52

and and unless it was, like, video tape from beginning

17:54

to end and then you could say, well, the video tapes were

17:56

doctored. So so we are in this big

17:58

trust

17:58

collapse. And I think

18:00

that that's very dangerous for a Democratic

18:02

Republic. The thing that should scare everybody

18:04

is that when you say when we say the United

18:06

States is the oldest democracy in

18:08

the world. Oh, wait. Hold on a second. We're only

18:11

like two hundred fifty years old. We

18:13

had ten thousand years of human civilization.

18:15

and and the oldest The

18:17

democratic Republic is even three hundred years

18:20

old, that means these must be very

18:22

hard forms of government to hold

18:24

to. because they've been democracies in the past. So

18:26

this is a very fragile system.

18:28

It's a it's a miracle in human history what

18:30

we've been able to achieve. to

18:32

have a Democratic Republic with, you

18:34

know, every color, every faith, every kind

18:36

of human being ever born in one country. And

18:39

we actually have been able to make it work for

18:41

this long. but it requires

18:43

some trust. And to

18:44

your point, if you're liberal,

18:46

you say,

18:47

look, I'm scared. I'm

18:49

scared the Republic's gonna take over. I'm scared the Republic's gonna

18:51

take away my rights. I'm scared the

18:53

Republic's gonna, you know, cook

18:55

the planet with fossil fuels

18:57

and don't care. I'm scared to they're

18:59

gonna take away women's rights to choose. I'm scared to rip

19:02

up and ruin my life. But

19:04

what you don't always think about is there's

19:05

fear on the other side. you

19:08

know, match lap is no easy,

19:10

you know, pushover. This is a big

19:12

dude. And one of the most powerful people in the country. And he

19:14

thinks he might wind up in jail. Now,

19:16

I don't know that we have those conversations

19:18

with this is literally one of the

19:20

most powerful people in the country is not sure he

19:22

can trust America not to put him in jail for

19:24

his political views. Now, how do

19:27

we get into that situation where

19:29

there's that much fear and lack of trust on either

19:31

side? And is there anything you think we

19:33

could do to start to heal that because you can't run a

19:35

Democratic Republic of both sides and the other sides, homicide.

19:37

You know, there was there was a point in

19:39

the swamp where, you know, we could have

19:41

a party at our house and

19:43

we could invite pretty much anyone in politics and

19:46

nothing was out of bounds. Everything

19:48

was fine. And then at a at a know

19:50

where that that's ended. Like,

19:52

we noticed that, like, we didn't get invited to

19:54

these things anymore, and the White House

19:56

correspondent's dinner was no longer, like, a

19:58

safe zone to go and

20:00

get mocked in a good

20:02

natured way and, like, it just kinda all dried

20:04

up. And, you know, someone asked

20:06

me over the course of last week,

20:08

attorney friend of mine, like, who's

20:10

who's responsible, and who's at fault, and

20:12

we started going through, like, Richard Nixon,

20:14

and New Gingrich, and Jim. Right? Like,

20:16

I love history, but I don't know how useful all that

20:18

is. I think that The point is is

20:20

this, which is of all those

20:22

countries you talked about that were around for about

20:24

two hundred and fifty years, some

20:27

shaped man or formed there was some kind of

20:29

citizenship and they had some kind

20:31

of voice in their government. I'm sure it wasn't

20:33

very perfect. But the difference with ours

20:35

was is it wasn't based on, you

20:37

know, a specific ethnicity or

20:39

a certain country, like we weren't all from France

20:41

or we weren't all from Great Britain. It was a it

20:43

was a little bit of a hodgepodge, of course,

20:45

mostly white Western European. I

20:47

get that completely and

20:49

mostly Christian. overwhelming Christian.

20:51

And then there's a native population. So without

20:53

getting into all the complications of what

20:55

makes America, we were unique

20:57

and that everybody almost everybody came here

21:00

from other places and tried to figure

21:02

out how we're gonna put a government

21:04

together. And I think what made

21:06

us so exceptional in the beginning

21:08

was a diverse

21:10

experience, at least to the extent to which I

21:12

described. That

21:12

doesn't seem to be a strength anymore. It seems

21:15

to be our weakness, which is no one trust

21:17

any bun. There's a

21:17

lot of hatred. There's a lot of violence.

21:19

I don't think we'd talk about that or not. There's a lot

21:21

of violence. And I think that violence

21:24

is I'm sadly. I I don't I don't

21:26

see ebbing anytime soon. And

21:28

I really worry about that. How do we

21:30

find what what we have in common

21:32

again? How do

21:34

we find a a national purpose, you know,

21:36

with all the diversity and everything else. How do

21:38

we find that again? You know, I well, I

21:40

spent some time with them commenting again.

21:42

How do we find a national

21:45

purpose, you know, with all the diversity and

21:47

everything else. How do we find that again? You

21:49

know, I I spent some time with my daughter.

21:51

We have these CPACs all over the world. We get

21:53

a CPAC. In Israel, we had a CPAC

21:55

in Hungary. I took my daughter

21:57

to Paris. We have it the worst. I

21:59

mean, even

21:59

in Israel, we hate

22:02

each other. We hate each other more

22:04

than I see in these, certainly, these other

22:06

European countries. We just the animosity

22:08

levels are off the charts.

22:10

how do you to, say, a progressive suppose,

22:12

you know, just make somebody up. You got a twenty

22:14

seven year old African American

22:16

lesbian or something. And she says,

22:19

Look, I don't think that

22:21

if Matt Slapp and his

22:23

crew were in charge, that I would

22:25

be safe. I

22:26

think I wouldn't have rights. I think

22:28

I would be vulnerable. I don't I don't think match lap

22:30

would protect my voting rights. I don't think match lap

22:32

would stick up for me, you know, if if

22:34

I was being fired for being a lesbian

22:37

or or something like that. Like, I

22:39

think Matt Slaps trying to get power to hurt

22:41

me. First of all, did you did you understand why

22:43

somebody might feel that way? Yeah.

22:44

Of course. I think

22:46

that I

22:48

could argue the opposite. You

22:50

know, I don't want her to be safe. I

22:52

mean, where does she live? No offense.

22:54

Does she live in Los Angeles? Or

22:56

San Francisco or New York Chicago, where crime is

22:59

skyrocketing. I don't think it's American

23:01

to be this unsafe in the streets and to have

23:03

this kind of chaos in the streets. you

23:05

know, as far as her sexual preferences or whatever

23:08

else, I think most people

23:10

with my political views

23:12

believe in

23:13

freedom. and people

23:15

have right to live their life. Our

23:18

demarcation is, you have the

23:19

right to be who you want to be as an adult, as

23:21

long as you're not hurt a kid or something.

23:23

but you don't have the right to go to someone of

23:26

faith, someone

23:26

who has strongly held Christian views

23:29

or or

23:29

whatever views they are and tell them that

23:32

they can't have those views because

23:35

somehow that damages their ability to live

23:37

their life. And that's where the that's where

23:39

the the respect and the trust has

23:41

to happen. the conservative Christian

23:43

in America doesn't wanna have to be

23:45

told that they can't have the full expression of

23:48

their religious views. and

23:50

the person that wants to live their life

23:52

as a member of

23:54

the LGBT queue community doesn't want

23:56

to have Christians when they're elected

23:59

to office somehow bring the

24:01

moral police down on

24:03

the decisions

24:03

they're making. And I I actually don't think

24:06

it's that hard because We

24:08

do this mostly as a society anyway,

24:10

which is people have the right

24:12

to teach their kids, their

24:14

religious views, And I don't

24:16

think it's right for the state or anybody else to come in and tell their parents

24:18

that that they're they're teaching them

24:20

hatred and intolerance if they're teaching

24:23

them what they believe biblical truths. And I

24:25

think for most people that look, most of the people

24:27

I know in the LGBTQ community

24:29

are Republicans. But I think there's an

24:31

increasing view from those

24:33

folks is it's a little bit of the lead me

24:35

alone caucus. It's like, hey, why don't you just let

24:37

me live my life and Let

24:39

me tell you, I think for most conservatives

24:41

in America today, they're

24:43

the ones

24:44

who are saying, hey, would you just leave me

24:47

alone? you won't even

24:47

leave me alone if I wanna put up my tramp flag. Let me put

24:49

up my tramp flag if I wanna put my pro

24:51

life sticker on. Let me put my pro life

24:54

sticker on I'm not telling you what you

24:56

gotta do, but leave me alone. Don't make

24:58

me feel like I'm a

25:00

pariah because I have these

25:02

views and believe it or not,

25:04

van, for A lot of Republicans in this country when it

25:06

comes to the treatment by corporate America, which

25:08

is now so hostile to these

25:10

viewpoints, professional sports, which is so

25:12

hostile to these viewpoints. they

25:14

feel like they're

25:14

the hunted for having their views.

25:16

And by the way, the worst thing that's happening in

25:18

our country is people who have my

25:21

views in I probably would be like this,

25:23

except I just kinda got pushed in front of

25:25

everything. But they're

25:27

hiding their views because they feel like

25:29

if they express them, that

25:31

they'll be told that their bigots or their

25:33

haters. And so what you have is a lot

25:35

of non expression of

25:37

people's views. That's not making those

25:39

views ebb. that's making those views get

25:41

a harder edge to them. And I don't

25:43

think it's a healthy thing at all. I think

25:45

I think our founders were right. The

25:47

reason why we believed

25:48

in free speech in this country is because

25:50

the more people have the chance to speak

25:52

even if it's hateful. the more they

25:54

felt like a good population would

25:57

root

25:57

out the bad ideas and embrace the good. I

25:59

think a couple of things and just response to what you what

26:02

you said. This trying

26:04

to set the the the table in

26:06

the right way so that, you know, people can have

26:08

freedom. I think I think human freedom

26:10

and human dignity is the common ground

26:13

for for all sides. If there's any common

26:15

ground left, it's just the idea. Freedom is good,

26:17

dignity is good, how do you get there? you know,

26:19

as a person of faith that to be shared that I'm processing

26:21

your catholic, but there's this

26:23

challenge around can

26:25

we

26:25

have a a situation where someone can use their

26:28

religious ideas to

26:30

discriminate against

26:30

someone else. That's how it lands on our side.

26:32

So for instance, you know, back in

26:35

the day, they would

26:37

say, well, God separated the

26:39

races. And the curse of ham,

26:41

they would go in the bible and say,

26:43

you know, the children of ham were cursed and the

26:45

curses is, you know, they could just make that up. It's it's

26:47

black skin. So you guys are the children of

26:49

ham. God separated us.

26:51

So they were using Christianity to

26:54

justify segregation. And I think at this point,

26:56

everybody would say, well, that was an

26:58

abusive scripture. and you

27:00

can't say, well, I'm a Christian, therefore, and I'm gonna let a live

27:02

person come into my store. So

27:04

that's where it gets tricky when we when we

27:07

wanna defend people's religious freedoms, including my own religious

27:09

freedoms. And at the same time, we do want, say,

27:11

a lesbian couple to be

27:13

able to get a cake made at

27:15

a bakery or something like that.

27:17

I think there's gradations of differences there. So,

27:19

like, if you're running a store, like, what

27:21

are you gonna ask people like who they sleep

27:23

with before they come in the store? No.

27:25

Of course, that's impractical, I wouldn't even

27:28

consider doing that. But I

27:30

think the question on the cake, the reason

27:32

why the cake was such an

27:34

important point is

27:36

that baker in Colorado, he

27:38

had strongly held views where

27:40

he felt like marriage

27:42

is between a man and a woman. and

27:44

he didn't wanna be forced to be complicit with

27:47

going against

27:47

his views. And his his

27:50

belief was that couple should just go someplace else

27:52

to get their cake mediate He

27:54

didn't wanna hurt them. He didn't have any any animosity. But

27:57

he was religiously convicted

27:59

not to

27:59

participate in any way with

28:02

that wedding. I think that is clearly within

28:05

his rights under the first amendment

28:07

to decide what cake he's

28:09

gonna bake and what cake he's

28:11

not gonna bake. I think it would have been different. If it's just

28:13

a gay customer coming in and saying, hey, I

28:16

want a cake, and he says, hey, I heard you were

28:18

at a gay bar. I don't wanna give you any cookies.

28:20

I mean, That's not what this was. This an

28:22

endorsement that he thought, an implied

28:25

endorsement of a marriage between

28:27

two people of the same gender.

28:30

So you know, there are gradations of difference

28:32

here. I think that there are people in our society

28:34

that are trying to create the

28:36

flashpoints. And

28:37

I think that we've gone way too far

28:40

in the flash points, which is my

28:42

guess is that baker, I

28:43

don't know them, never met them,

28:45

but my guess is the baker is

28:47

probably not the evil person he gets portrayed as some

28:49

kind of hater. I think all he was saying is,

28:51

could you please just leave me

28:54

alone, let me run my bakery, let

28:57

me make my own religious decisions.

28:59

And so I think this is what

29:01

we were able to do as a country for a long

29:03

time. Now one of the reasons why we were able to do it for

29:05

a long time did have discrimination.

29:08

And I think we've changed a

29:10

lot of these ideas on how

29:12

to treat people who had different ideas

29:14

and wanna live their life in a way that's different

29:16

from where you wanna live your life.

29:18

And I just think we have to figure

29:20

out a way to continue to do that. And yes, there's

29:22

gonna be times when someone says, boy,

29:24

this hurts. You know, the the level of

29:26

protection is not where I want or that boundary is not

29:28

where I want it. But do you

29:31

wanna rip hard a whole society in a great

29:33

country because we have

29:35

differences and that's what I just really don't

29:37

wanna do.

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We can

30:59

go back and forth

30:59

on on this stuff. I think for me the most important

31:02

thing is that you

31:04

know,

31:04

you you are

31:06

a major conservative leader.

31:09

You're

31:09

saying things that twenty years

31:11

ago, ten years ago, I think would

31:13

have probably been applauded by

31:15

people on the progressive side because

31:17

you're you're saying, listen, people

31:19

have the right to get married. They have the

31:21

right to do these things, but there are some

31:24

things that you want to protect on your

31:26

side. That's not the same as

31:28

saying, I hate all gay people.

31:30

And so disagree with you. I I think that if

31:32

you if you hang out the shingles, if, you know,

31:34

and you're a public corporation or those

31:36

things, I think you gotta serve everybody the same. You

31:38

see it some somewhat differently. but I do

31:40

wanna point out, this is a much better conversation

31:42

than even in twenty twelve, the

31:44

best president we've ever had Barack Obama was

31:46

afraid to say, that

31:48

he was for marriage equality ten years ago. So we

31:50

have moved, you know, I think in a positive

31:53

direction. And I do think these things

31:55

get heated there's fear on both sides. But let

31:57

me let me just just say one thing to to

31:59

put maybe an end to that part of the

32:01

conversation. The modern American state has

32:03

done a lot of progressive things in

32:05

in the rule of law I don't agree with, but

32:07

that doesn't mean that I want to

32:10

force somebody to have a view that

32:12

they simply just don't agree with. I think that's not

32:14

gonna get us very far. You know, all this

32:16

stuff is gonna be coming to a head

32:18

in the elections. And I

32:20

wanna just move over to that. I'm

32:22

very concerned about twenty twenty four. I

32:25

think we've come to a place where

32:27

all these issues are very polarized and very very

32:30

closely felt

32:31

and I think Republicans

32:34

don't

32:34

trust Democrats

32:36

to cast our votes

32:38

fairly without cheating. And I don't think

32:41

Democrats, trust Republicans,

32:43

to count our votes, fearably and

32:45

without cheating. And so you've got this

32:48

standoff now where I think

32:50

Republicans have come to

32:52

feel that Democrats just cheat all the

32:54

time. And they're gonna stuff ballots and

32:56

they're gonna do stuff that's that's,

32:58

like, unfair. And

32:59

I think

33:00

on our side, we say, well, hold on a second.

33:02

We see these moves to get

33:04

pro

33:04

Trump people in positions of power in terms

33:06

of securities of state and governors. We see

33:09

these laws coming out and you can't even

33:11

bring water to somebody standing in

33:13

line. We think that they are trying to be in

33:15

a position to gerrymandering everything else,

33:17

to dilute our vote, to suppress our vote,

33:19

and even to steal our vote. And

33:21

that is a very dangerous situation because

33:23

what it could mean is that after

33:25

twenty twenty four, once or the other just won't

33:27

accept the result. Going

33:30

forward, how do we get

33:31

to a place where we at

33:33

least have the most fundamental

33:35

part of our democracy

33:37

are respected, which is a

33:39

cheat free election where people respect

33:41

the outcome of the vote. Yeah.

33:43

I mean, I think, you know, there are some proposals that are being

33:45

thrown out by conservatives, which mirror

33:48

what they do in a lot of other countries, a

33:50

lot of European countries like

33:52

have a national holiday on election day. Like,

33:54

don't give anybody the excuse so I had

33:56

to get to work for the reason why they couldn't

33:58

vote and make it easy for people to

34:00

vote. And so you this idea

34:03

where I think it's easy

34:05

to, I would say,

34:05

mischaracterize the Republican position

34:08

where We don't want too many people to vote. We wanna make it a little

34:10

bit hard to vote because, boy, if everybody

34:12

really voted, we'd get killed. We'd just

34:14

get swamped because our positions aren't popular

34:18

and I don't think that's right. I do think we have an electoral

34:20

college system, and people can argue whether they like or

34:22

don't like that. But under

34:24

that system, I'd be very

34:26

open to making it as pain free and as

34:28

easy for everyone to vote. I

34:30

would much rather have every

34:32

legal person vote. Be

34:34

told they had to vote. Then this system that we

34:36

have right now, where one

34:38

side can mischaracterize my side is

34:40

we're trying to prevent legal, lawful

34:42

voters from voting. And the other

34:44

side is so radicalized

34:48

in fear of whoever candidate I might be supporting that.

34:50

I don't think it's all the democrats that are

34:52

cheating, by the way. I just think that there was

34:55

a very unfortunate four hundred

34:58

seventeen million dollar program

35:00

under very

35:00

loose rules in these cities

35:03

that

35:03

allowed for people

35:05

to have great questions. And I think, you know,

35:07

as long as you're a registered voter and

35:09

as long as you follow those election laws,

35:11

you're having this increasing and

35:13

pervasive idea that Figuring out who

35:15

the winner is of an election is just too

35:18

complicated. It's too murky and that is

35:20

wrong. Democracy's all over the world have figured

35:22

this out and I think we better figure

35:24

this out and If it means I gotta

35:26

give a little bit on the fact that there's a

35:28

holiday, which I I hate giving out more federal

35:30

holidays, I think we have enough. But if that's what we

35:32

gotta do to restore, this,

35:34

maybe maybe, you know, you and I have talked about this,

35:36

maybe there are some standards we could maybe

35:38

there's some kind of coalition that could be

35:40

put together to say, look, this

35:42

is what we have to do for everybody to have confidence. I can just tell you

35:44

this from the bottom of my heart

35:46

and maybe for your audience, so just think I'm

35:48

really full of

35:50

it. But I I know for myself, I will participate in

35:52

nothing that has its

35:54

goal

35:54

trying to peep people of

35:56

color from casting their

35:58

lawful vote. Why do I feel that

35:59

way? Well, I think there's a moral

36:02

question. But, you know, I'm

36:03

a Abraham Lincoln Republican. Our

36:05

whole party was started. to

36:07

give these people the vote to make sure back

36:09

in the eighteen sixties that former slaves got their

36:12

full civil rights. Now maybe maybe

36:14

those Republicans didn't think a

36:16

black man and a white man were the same. I'm not gonna tell you

36:18

that they had the same views as

36:20

people do today, but they

36:22

did understand that

36:24

they were created by god, they were human beings, and they deserved their full civil

36:27

rights. And I think my

36:29

party, the extent to which it

36:31

participates in anything that

36:34

would, you know, make it harder or

36:36

deny people their ability to write

36:38

because of racial reasons or anything else. I think

36:40

we'd be a short term party. I think

36:42

we'd be headed for, you know, it's a bad

36:44

strategy. It's too easy to discover. Well,

36:46

I think what I what I would say about that is

36:48

that, you know, this

36:50

rash of of Republican

36:52

bills that are really in

36:54

really pushing in the opposite direction what you're saying.

36:56

You're saying and I look, I

36:58

agree with you. I would like to see

37:00

more people come into

37:02

the system and vote because I think, you know, voting

37:04

is an important act of

37:07

of ownership of yourself and ownership in

37:09

and having ownership stake in your country.

37:11

And I also think that it would

37:13

be good for everyone to have more

37:15

confidence in it because we we we've

37:17

agreed that we want that confidence. I

37:19

think that what cuts the other way is that

37:21

you had a bunch of Republican bills that got

37:23

passed that seemed to be more restrictive, that

37:26

seemed to say, Well, we'd

37:28

like to election outcome in twenty twenty, and

37:30

so now we're gonna make it harder. Again,

37:32

the Georgia bill that says, you can't bring water to

37:34

somebody standing in line and other

37:36

bills like that. And now you said you wouldn't want somebody doing something

37:38

like that for racial reasons, but

37:40

maybe it's not racial reasons anymore. Maybe it's

37:42

just pure partisan reasons or some

37:44

other reason

37:46

I still think illegitimate reasons to make it harder to vote. How do

37:48

you respond to that concern? I don't

37:51

fear everyone voting. That is

37:53

not what I fear. What I fear

37:56

is what happened last time and

37:58

let's not re litigate it, but what

38:00

we did last time

38:02

is because big cities are dominated now by one party. You know, I did

38:04

the Florida recount fan. I don't know if you

38:06

did in two thousand. But, you know,

38:08

that was the right model. People can

38:10

say was the wrong come, but the model was

38:12

in air through every court was you will

38:14

have a Democrat observer and a

38:16

Republican observer, and then the

38:18

county official adjudicating that

38:20

ballot. If both people got to watch, they could

38:22

tape it. Right? More transparency

38:24

is what you need, by the way, it's

38:26

easy for Republicans to complain because we're not getting the beneficiary of any

38:28

description in the big cities, which I

38:30

think was on display unfortunately in

38:33

two thousand twenty. But, you know,

38:35

what happens in these Democrat primaries?

38:38

Right? If you're going to

38:40

allow local officials to

38:42

decide when they use voter ID, when they

38:44

don't use voter ID when a poll

38:46

is open, when a poll is closed,

38:48

who's considered a lawful voter, who

38:50

isn't a lawful voter, what'll happen

38:52

when that's your team versus your team? and one

38:54

guy's in the machine and the other guy's the

38:56

outsider. I think that's gonna be very good for

38:58

that outsider. And I just think we ought to

39:00

have a set of rules. I think that'll be

39:02

very clear I don't think they should be

39:04

written by Republicans. And I

39:06

think we ought to follow those rules each and every

39:08

time. And if we do that and if they're

39:10

fair minded, and the courts will play a role, I think will

39:12

increase their confidence in those

39:14

results. And if my team loses all

39:16

those races, That'll

39:18

be on

39:18

me. We'll we'll have to deal with the fact that we're not popular. I

39:20

just don't think that's the case. I see it

39:23

differently in the following way. first

39:25

of all, these blue cities that are so

39:27

well organized with corruption. Like, I've lived

39:29

in a bunch of them. III have our

39:31

time to get people to vote one time, let alone

39:33

twenty. I just don't accept premise that what you're seeing is corruption as

39:36

much as incompetence in terms of

39:38

how long it takes to to to get the

39:40

votes counted. I think it's important

39:42

for my audience to hear, look,

39:43

you if you're progressive, you probably

39:46

never thought about the fact that it takes a long time for

39:48

folks to to get turned to in the

39:50

big cities. as a possible sign of some kind of disrupt corruption

39:52

of malfeasance. It's important for us

39:54

to

39:54

understand how stuff looks to other people.

39:56

You you do realize I don't really

39:59

fault.

39:59

I keep saying the big cities. Uh-huh.

40:02

I think that they're the host for a lot

40:04

of activity that shouldn't be happening. And

40:06

I do think so. I think

40:08

it's ironic. I think some of these cities

40:10

that are probably very diverse cities. I do think it's a lot of woke billionaires that

40:12

are funding things that I think are

40:14

not helpful to having

40:16

free and fair elections. I hope more woke billionaires

40:18

will give money for voting voter mobilization.

40:20

So please don't listen to my friends.

40:22

I know for legal voter mobilization as

40:25

well. I'm all four. Yeah. But but

40:27

what do you think about the people

40:29

who are denying the election

40:31

outcome grabbing for the state security

40:34

state roles and the government's role, that scares the crap

40:36

that's right now. You wanna win a number one thing

40:38

that scares the crap out of Democrats and progressives

40:40

is the idea that people who

40:42

don't believe the last election was fair, deliberately putting themselves in a

40:44

position to be in a governor's chair or

40:46

secretary's state chair to determine and put

40:49

maybe put their thumb on the

40:51

election. I mean, and you've hearing people now, conservative

40:53

saying maybe the state legislature should be able

40:55

to just send their own delegates.

40:57

I mean, how Can you understand

40:59

how that stuff just scares the crap out of us? I

41:01

can understand in a country that's

41:04

had a really troubling racial

41:06

history with

41:08

voting. I can understand why people of those

41:10

racial minorities would worry that

41:12

it's just the same people doing it to them

41:15

again. Of course, I would understand that.

41:17

Look, this is this is our birthmark as a country.

41:19

I mean, we got it all wrong on that

41:22

stuff. And people can argue over whether

41:24

it was

41:26

what they had to do to get the thing launched and they were gonna fix

41:28

it later or whether there's just no way to fix the country

41:30

because it started off with that racial

41:32

birth defect. But, you know,

41:36

my party had

41:36

a lot to do with fixing those problems. And I'm

41:38

not gonna be put on the defensive

41:40

for the owning all

41:43

these bad racial policies

41:46

that kept blacks from voting and

41:48

other people from voting. By the way, the

41:50

Republicans were the ones that

41:52

pushed through and

41:52

franchise it for women to vote too. So, like, we actually have a

41:54

good history on a lot of these questions. It doesn't

41:56

mean every Republican did the right thing. It doesn't

41:58

mean that everything we did was right.

42:01

But, you know, there's a lot of pushback to get to

42:04

Democrats who now are trying to say that there

42:06

are always the good guys, and I don't

42:08

think that's a very fair read of history. And I would say

42:10

this, that we know that as

42:12

Republicans were gonna get accused of racism to be

42:14

the first thing out of the box

42:16

every time. Why

42:18

don't

42:18

we just have a set of rules that you always have to follow? Just follow them.

42:20

And we should

42:20

have followed them last time. And they could be

42:23

easier rules, by the way, then, you

42:25

know, you talk about they made the rules tougher in Georgia because

42:27

that's what that's the reaction to, oh

42:29

my gosh, these big city mayors are gonna just

42:31

be willy nilly with the laws. we have to

42:33

make it harder for them to do that. Actually, the

42:36

right answer to that, if we were all

42:38

dealing squarely with each other, would

42:40

be, look, make it

42:42

very easy to vote, make it all

42:44

very transparent, but then

42:46

nobody can try to

42:48

change those rules to benefit their

42:50

candidate, I think that's where we gotta get to.

42:52

You said some stuff I disagree with and some

42:54

stuff I do agree with, but your your

42:56

bottom line I

42:56

think any fair minded person would have to agree with that if there's if

42:59

there could be a grand bargain on

43:01

voting where there was

43:03

a sense that We're not

43:05

making it harder for anybody who can lawfully vote to

43:08

do so. And the rules are

43:10

transparent, and everybody knows what they are and they

43:12

don't change. I

43:13

think that's That's common

43:15

ground. Let me just ask you a

43:16

couple just quick questions, just lightning round

43:18

type question. You mentioned going overseas. You

43:20

know, Victor Orbon scares the

43:23

heck out of most progressive. Why do you think

43:25

conservatives like Victor Orban of all people? And would you

43:28

wanna live in a country like Hungary? Which he that

43:30

was controversial part of

43:32

Victor Orban's public policy

43:34

goals is to use the tax

43:36

code to incentivize people to have kids and

43:38

be married. And marriage is up

43:40

something like thirty percent, abortions

43:42

have dropped, by half

43:44

because when someone gets pregnant, by the way,

43:46

she doesn't even have to be married. But when a woman

43:48

gets pregnant, she has an immediate drop

43:51

in her taxation level. to the point that

43:53

if she has three or four kids, she never pays taxes for rest of her life.

43:55

I don't know. They're looking at declining birth

43:57

rates throughout Europe. He's just trying to

43:59

reverse that trend.

44:02

because he knows it'll help the economics of the country. And I think people

44:04

don't understand that he wants to

44:06

keep a country in his Judeo

44:10

Christian tradition. and people view that as racist. And

44:12

when Jews wanna have the state

44:14

of Israel and keep it

44:16

mostly Jewish, you

44:18

know, I don't think that's racist. I think there's okay

44:20

for people to wanna maintain their

44:22

identity as a country. The way I

44:24

see that one is that, you know,

44:26

Jewish people were almost exterminated, and they really needed to to have a,

44:28

they call it, a homeland and a homestead.

44:31

It's a unique example. I

44:33

agree. example. Yeah. And I think that

44:35

the the reason I don't like Victor Orbon is because

44:38

another way to deal with declining birth rates is

44:40

just to have

44:42

immigration and let people come to the country, you know, free free flow

44:44

of capital and labor has been good for free

44:46

markets. And, you know, he has immigration.

44:48

His point is is that

44:50

You want it to be legal and approved. This is argument we have

44:52

in this country, which is I view what's

44:55

happening at the southern border as

44:57

an abomination and unconstitutional

45:00

illegal immigration, yet at the same

45:02

time as you know America takes

45:04

more legal immigrants than anybody. So

45:06

it's like it's it's not a question of

45:08

do you not agree with having

45:10

any immigrationists? Does that

45:12

country get to set those immigration levels?

45:14

Can you understand why a guy

45:16

like the oribi. He seemed like he basically wants white babies and not

45:18

brown babies in his country

45:20

and seems to be an authoritarian,

45:22

like, watching conservatives like him a

45:24

lot would

45:26

be scary. Yeah. And I also think there's just a European

45:28

history, which is hard to ever get

45:30

through with what happened,

45:32

obviously, during World

45:34

War two. And it's this it's a similar question we face in this

45:36

country van. This is really the

45:38

question. With the good parts in the bad

45:40

parts of our history and our bad parts are really bad. I

45:42

don't want a

45:44

sugar coke. Can we get to a

45:46

place

45:46

where we understand our history

45:48

and we want to improve in the

45:50

areas we were so bad?

45:53

And the same question is for Europe. They made

45:55

a lot of terrible decisions. And

45:58

the people of Hungary, I'm sure

45:59

their histories you know, they're not proud of every aspect

46:02

of their history. They have the

46:04

right to set their course as

46:04

a country. Should they be a racist course? Of course

46:07

not. Should it be anti Semitic? of

46:09

course not. If that's really what this is all about is like

46:12

a white race, then of course, I

46:14

don't wanna like propel the notion that it's

46:16

good to have a white

46:18

race, but the

46:18

Hungarians also can't help what they look like. And what

46:20

they're simply saying is is that they're a tiny

46:22

little country of nine million people. They wanna

46:25

retain their Hungarian identity. think

46:28

they want to encourage people there to get married.

46:30

Now you don't have to be white or

46:32

Hungarian or Christian to be in Hungary. And by

46:34

the way, this tax credit would go to you no

46:36

matter what your religion is or you but have be

46:38

Hungarian citizen. And I, you

46:40

know, who are we to tell the

46:42

Hungarians know

46:44

you know, you're just too little and you should be swamped by

46:46

having a bunch of illegal immigration and

46:48

the whole idea of being Hungarian will just

46:51

slip away. I I don't they

46:53

have a different experience in America. We all came

46:56

from other almost all of us came from other

46:58

places. And some of us

47:00

against our will,

47:02

and that's We have a unique country that once again, just like

47:04

Israel's unique, America's very unique.

47:06

It's hard to put it within the European

47:08

context for these countries. I agree, which is why

47:10

it's so weird for people in the United States to be

47:12

cheerleading so hard for for this one guy. Let me

47:14

just say one quick thing. Abortions down

47:16

fifty percent not because the

47:18

outlawed abortion. Abortions down

47:20

fifty percent because he's being welcoming

47:22

to that unborn child in

47:24

the tax code. Get beyond race for

47:26

a minute and think about that no matter what

47:28

color that child is, I think that that's a good thing. Maybe

47:30

we ought to replicate that. Maybe we ought

47:32

to make it easier for for young

47:35

mothers to accept this

47:38

life. I'm still old fashioned enough to be in

47:40

the Clinton camp on abortion,

47:41

the original Clinton camp, which said, you know,

47:43

Safe, Legal, and

47:46

Rare. think still that's where the vast majority of most Americans are, and I

47:48

wish we had more policy to move things

47:50

in that direction. But

47:54

last thing, should

47:55

Donald Trump run again in twenty twenty four?

47:57

What's your view? I don't

47:58

know. I should ask you, but look,

48:02

I think everyone should run for

48:04

president who wants to run for president. Sure. Sure.

48:06

I have talked to him about this, so I don't

48:08

have any inside information, but look, I

48:10

think he's gonna I don't know if

48:12

he's made that decision. I sure think he's weighing in heavily to do it. In my view,

48:14

to Rhonda Santos or anybody else who

48:16

wants to run against Kamala Harris or

48:20

whoever's running, If you feel like God's

48:22

called you run for president, just go do it. If you suck at

48:24

it, you're gonna do really bad. If

48:26

you have the gift, you

48:29

just might get there. And I think things

48:31

are tumultuous enough in American politics that I

48:33

think it's very possible that Donald Trump could be back

48:35

in the White House. And I also think it's very possible that a Democrat could

48:37

be in the White House, so we don't even know we're not even

48:40

talking about their name.

48:42

And maybe the thing we still

48:44

got going as a country which is like it's a

48:46

live game. It's a live game and and you're

48:48

one of the best people playing it on your

48:50

side and Like, I

48:52

I appreciate our friendship. I appreciate our

48:54

relationship. I learned something from me

48:56

every time we talk, and I just think it's

48:58

so one portant for people. You learned how crazy

49:00

bars. That's like a dumb

49:02

thing. I know you guys have

49:04

been crazy

49:06

before. No. No. Just just really let

49:08

I think that what's happening now is

49:10

that people are down their own algorithmic

49:14

rabbit holes we aren't going each

49:16

other's houses, you know, we don't do

49:18

anything together. And so we just go

49:20

based off the sound bites and whatever it's trending

49:22

on Twitter. and I'm kicking away from this

49:24

conversation a lot of hope in

49:26

that I do think we it may be

49:27

the case that strong democrats strong

49:30

progresses. stronger

49:32

service strong Republicans might be closer to a deal

49:35

on

49:35

voting that would make the next election go down

49:38

better. I don't whoever

49:40

wins I just want the election to be the end of the contest

49:42

and not the beginning of the controversy. Well

49:44

well, why don't I why don't I make

49:46

two kind of soft challenges here. Number one,

49:50

Let's get back to a prison. Good. I think that had a big impact on

49:52

people. Yeah. I love that. And number two,

49:54

let's put the right heads around

49:56

if if I'm not motivated by

50:00

racism. and you're not motivated by cheating, then why

50:02

can't people get around a table

50:04

and say, actually, this is

50:05

what a squared deal

50:06

looks like because we gotta get there.

50:08

Let's do it. last time we shook hands on something, we made a pretty big

50:11

difference in this country. Let's do it again. We'll do it

50:13

with somebody. That's true. Alright, brother. Oh, god bless you. God bless

50:15

you. God bless you too for having your

50:17

patience. We see the

50:20

beauty of hope. That

50:22

spirit is so beautiful. Those

50:26

who

50:26

become American citizens love

50:28

this country even more, and

50:30

that's why the statue of liberty lifts her

50:33

to welcome him to

50:35

the golden building.

50:43

I think that

50:46

was a very,

50:48

very important conversation.

50:50

I had a whole bunch of stuff I get into

50:52

with them. I didn't get a chance to as far as, you know, critical race theory and

50:54

a whole bunch of other stuff. But it

50:56

used to be the case that it

50:59

wasn't unusual for a

51:01

strong progressive like myself and

51:03

a strong conservative like him to talk

51:05

and to go back and

51:07

forth. And so I bring folks on that I

51:10

don't agree with, but I think I do

51:12

understand. I

51:14

understand how there's a section of people in this country who

51:16

do feel that tables have turned

51:18

against them. And whether you're talking about

51:20

the tables have turned against them in

51:23

terms of the LGBTQ stuff or the

51:26

demographics of the country

51:28

or who counts and who doesn't

51:30

when it comes to

51:32

the culture whether it's it's it's it's what's being taught in schools

51:34

that they feel that the tables have been turned against

51:36

them. Now, I call that progress

51:38

because I

51:40

like most of the cultural

51:42

direction of the country, like a lot more

51:44

than where it was twenty, thirty, fifty, hundred

51:46

years ago. But for for them,

51:49

it's hard And I think when they

51:51

push back, it's easy

51:54

to lump them all in the same bucket. The people who

51:56

are like, absolute, horrible,

51:59

racist, Nazis, kinda get lumped

52:01

in with people who may have a

52:03

different mix of views. So I

52:05

took some encouragement from the

52:08

conversation because

52:10

on voting, which I think is really key

52:12

there may be more room for a deal than we know. You know,

52:15

democrats have tried to get the voting rights

52:17

act restored and a bunch of other

52:19

stuff, but it was more

52:22

a progressive wish list and it didn't

52:24

get anywhere in the Senate. And so now we've got

52:26

the same crappy voting system that we

52:29

we don't like because of voter suppression on the

52:31

left. On the right, they don't trust it because of

52:33

their view of voter fraud, and

52:36

nobody's happy. conceivable

52:38

that we could actually come together

52:40

and get something done.

52:43

That's not impossible. and that's what I love

52:45

about the American system. It started off, you

52:48

know, the founding reality was ugly

52:50

and unequal. with

52:52

slavery and exclamation, native marriage, everything else, but the

52:54

founding dream was pretty beautiful. We hold this

52:57

truth to be self evident that

52:59

all it created equal. So,

53:01

you know, as we try to close the

53:04

gap between the ugliness of the

53:06

founding reality and the beauty of

53:08

the founding dream,

53:10

we've got have to sometimes talk to people we don't agree with and try understand

53:12

them and look for some common

53:14

ground. I saw some patches of common ground

53:16

on boating that I promise

53:20

you I gonna follow-up on and keep you informed

53:22

about. But I'm gonna go back into another prison

53:24

with MashLab and we're

53:26

gonna find some folks

53:28

to help and we're gonna keep

53:30

looking for ways to make the country

53:32

better. And if somebody is right

53:34

wing is match lap and somebody is left wing is

53:36

is myself can do that, I bet you can

53:38

find some people in your own life,

53:40

some people maybe you blocked on your Facebook

53:42

page, my school, or some people in

53:44

your family, you stop

53:46

talking to a three Thanksgiving ago. So maybe reach out

53:48

to and maybe there's some kind of a

53:50

breakthrough or miracle in your own life

53:52

that's available. I

53:54

hope so. I appreciate you giving us some time oncoming ground,

53:56

and I'll see you next week.

54:03

Uncommon ground with Dan

54:06

Jones is an Amazon original

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