0:00

Hi there, it's Fred. Before we start,

0:02

if you have been digging Narcosis but

0:04

want to hear the entire show as

0:06

a single binge listen without ads, check

0:08

out our new Omnibus Uncut Edition episode

0:10

drop which has happened today alongside this

0:13

episode. You can only access it as

0:15

a Realm subscriber so you can become one. If

0:18

you're on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to

0:20

Realm Plus, or use Realm Unlimited

0:22

with any other service, visit realm.fm

0:24

slash unlimited to get started. Did

0:32

you leave Sinclair Island soaked with salt water

0:34

and wondering what other mysteries lurk beneath the

0:36

sea? Dive into the story

0:38

of how Narcosis came to be when we

0:41

speak with series lead writer Chris Bernier just

0:43

after this. What

0:47

does feminism mean to you? During

0:49

Women's History Month, come explore feminism

0:51

and how it's playing out in

0:53

real life with season two of

0:55

Thread the Needle, a monthly podcast.

0:57

I'm your host Donna Shill. I'll

0:59

use my background in journalism to

1:01

dive into topics that matter to

1:03

women today, from divorce to call

1:05

out culture to masculinity to girl's confidence.

1:07

Season two of Thread the Needle

1:09

finds the meeting place between feminist

1:11

ideals and the realities of women's

1:13

lives. Listen to Thread the Needle

1:15

wherever you get your podcasts. Hi,

1:20

this is Fred Greenhalt, creator of

1:22

Narcosis and host of Undertow, Realm's

1:24

podcast of original audio horror. Today

1:26

I'm speaking with Chris Bernier, lead

1:28

writer on Narcosis. You heard

1:30

Chris back at the top of the season where the

1:33

two of us were chatting, gave you a taste of

1:35

what the series was all about. In today's episode, we

1:37

go deeper about what draws us to aquatic horror and

1:39

horror in general. Why the hell is Maine so scary?

1:41

Why do we love Wicker Man? What

1:44

are some of our favorite movies? This episode does

1:46

include tons of spoilers that we were expecting you've

1:48

already heard. Narcosis, if you have not listened to

1:50

Narcosis, stop now, go back, listen to

1:52

the season, and then come back because

1:55

we're going a little bit deeper. Still

1:58

here? Excellent. There we go.

2:00

Chris Bernie a talking necrosis. Chris.

2:03

How you doing. Some. Good. I'm I'm

2:05

really good. Thank you to listeners! I.

2:08

Sure hope you have listened all of

2:10

Narcosis for you got this far as

2:12

or chance to sort of ties deeper

2:14

has hit were so let's let's start

2:16

here tris with. Hundred involved

2:18

this project. An antenna? Come on

2:20

board. Yeah, No, it was. It

2:22

was really kind of a wonderful

2:24

opportunity. I think you know that

2:26

that arrived sort of organically. I

2:28

was a fan of Undertow In

2:30

You and I had develops. Sort.

2:33

Of a dialogue we're certain get getting to

2:35

know each other. One of the

2:37

things that we talked about early on, I

2:39

remember his marveling at the fact that. Main.

2:42

Has something around like four thousand islands

2:44

off it's coast and you and I

2:46

are both spent time on some of

2:49

the populated islands off the the coast

2:51

and and always felt like that was

2:53

a a pretty neat in an interesting

2:56

environment and then I think also you

2:58

know the past years mean. Like.

3:01

A lot of other places has gone

3:03

through pretty rapid change with out a

3:05

staters moving in I guess technically even

3:07

though my family's all from Northern Maine

3:09

on my father's side, I'm technically in

3:12

and out of town or to I

3:14

moved into to see years ago, but

3:16

there's been a real influx and with

3:18

that influx you know the people commonly

3:20

and they sort of bring their lifestyle.

3:22

They bring their wants and needs with

3:25

them and and a lot of that

3:27

has been changing the face of mean

3:29

culture in a pretty quick rapid fire

3:31

away and some of the islands letter

3:33

that are more seasonal, they're more popular

3:36

resorts destinations we seem pretty dramatic. Change

3:38

in than also us are fascinating local

3:40

resistance to the change and I think

3:42

that that was the inception of us

3:44

talking about hey, like let's do something

3:46

that. Lives. In the

3:48

zone of aquatic horror horror based

3:51

in her and around the sea

3:53

and T wouldn't. Doing.

3:55

something around in island and may indeed

3:58

be a cool thing which Which

4:00

I think it was. And you were

4:02

the one that I think was like,

4:05

why don't we build it around a

4:07

dive expedition? Yeah, I think so somehow

4:09

this idea of literally going

4:11

underneath the surface is kind of with our entrance

4:14

to that of like, yes, we can have a

4:16

coastal island with all this sort of these

4:18

dynamics, which are very rich to begin with.

4:20

And then let's just like put humans underwater

4:22

because even on a good day, going

4:25

underwater is sort of like one mechanical

4:28

failure away from disaster and

4:30

horror. Yeah, that's exactly it.

4:33

Hadn't really been done. I

4:35

think centering it around the

4:38

island of Sinclair, so a

4:40

seasonal resort island that has some

4:42

very sort of blatant similarities

4:44

to like, let's say Amity Island

4:47

from Jaws and the

4:49

kind of consistent politics of

4:51

these sort of communities because you

4:53

do need to make

4:55

sure that business is good in the

4:57

high season. Marrying

5:00

that with a underwater

5:03

adventure rescue story that

5:06

then pulls in these sort of

5:08

supernatural qualities, which we realized

5:10

through listening to the series, there's

5:14

a direct kind of

5:16

causality. There's a connection between the

5:19

sort of supernatural quality existing beneath

5:21

the surface and the

5:23

power struggle and structure within the

5:26

island. Yeah, and I don't know

5:28

how philosophical to get, but I

5:30

think we all know

5:32

the surface versus the bulk of

5:35

the iceberg, that

5:37

so much more is beneath the surface and sort of

5:39

on a mythological level, the ocean

5:41

is very much associated with like the

5:43

subconscious or the dream environment. And

5:46

even sort of the most rational people

5:49

know that there is something else going on.

5:51

And so I think without

5:54

doing it in any sort

5:56

of like really writerly way

5:58

of like beating it over your head, like that's just

6:00

sort of part of the dynamic of the texture of like

6:03

that is that is that is and that is sort of

6:05

Kind of very very literal practical sense the nature of living

6:07

on an island is like you are connected with the stuff

6:09

happening underneath the ocean Whether or not

6:11

you choose to believe in it or agree with it But

6:14

you but you just sort of are and I think you

6:16

know people who are locals to islands It's

6:18

like not even something they have to it'd be hard

6:20

to explain It was it just this is how it works

6:22

here like you you know like your day Revolves

6:25

around the ferry schedule and you certain things you do

6:27

at certain times of year because you can't do it other

6:29

times A year and this just certain things are not

6:31

done And so it ends up being sort

6:33

of this environment that could have what feels like

6:36

to an outsider like a very kind of Unique

6:38

like you know wicker man like kind

6:40

of like code of do's and don'ts

6:42

but that's just like what it is

6:44

actually like the lived reality of being

6:47

close to a natural environment where Yeah,

6:49

wait like if you did it to this day if

6:52

the ferry service is down for some reason because of choppy

6:54

waters if you're On an island you're you're on the island

6:56

and they a lot of days you might have internet But

6:59

if the internet goes out and no one's coming for you

7:01

for a while You're suddenly at a very different type of

7:03

situation And so that's that's all sort

7:05

of there literally, but also sort of metaphorically in

7:07

our story Yeah I mean there's still there are

7:09

areas and and I think that was something that

7:12

we were really interested in and continue to be

7:14

interested in This is exploring that sort of intersection

7:16

of kind of like old

7:18

world folkloric wisdom and

7:21

modern society modern existence and

7:23

kind of them the clash of

7:25

those two Elements, you

7:28

know People have often said

7:30

and I think there's a lot of truth to

7:32

the idea that you know All great horror is

7:34

a social metaphor. I think that's

7:37

maybe an overstatement in some regards like

7:39

or I should put it this

7:41

way I don't think you want to be too

7:43

overt or blatant with your sort of social sentiment

7:45

But I think what we were excited by was

7:47

creating these dynamics Creating a

7:49

complex mythology complex world and then just

7:52

sort of telling a simple story at

7:54

the heart of that So

7:56

I'd love to hear more from your perspective

7:59

as you Though most of

8:01

your careers focused on screen writing,

8:03

what is his first meal? making

8:05

a horror podcast? What? Salt.

8:07

Similar, what sell, different, what was

8:09

unexpected along the way. Yeah.

8:12

I me I'll give you some credit

8:14

for sort of framing this for me

8:16

coming in because I had never written

8:18

a podcast series before, haven't even hadn't

8:21

even really given it much thought. And

8:23

you're the one that sort of framed

8:25

it up that is sorta lives between

8:28

a season of T V and a

8:30

feature film. and that's kind of right

8:32

I would say like it's sort of

8:34

a super size extended feature film in

8:37

terms of the level of kind of

8:39

character, deaths and just narrative load that

8:41

years. Delivering in a season of a

8:43

podcast and then you know. The very

8:46

obvious thing is that everything that you're

8:48

writing has to be brought to life.

8:51

In. In in audio terms and

8:53

see you thinking about opportunities

8:55

to. Create really

8:58

interesting. Audio Landscapes

9:00

And I think that's where

9:02

the horror genre, as always

9:05

excelled in. The

9:07

obviously we're in a. A. Really kind

9:09

of strong moment for those for

9:11

the genre people are really into

9:13

into horror these days is that

9:16

Hard tends to be very immediately

9:18

propulsive and engaging. It's sort of

9:20

is deeply psychological. i'm deeply spiritual.

9:22

The Greeley If you want to

9:24

sort of plot horror as a

9:27

genre on the kind of like

9:29

constellation of human existence, it really

9:31

is about. A meditation.

9:34

On. To das. right? that's

9:36

what horror stories are as visceral

9:38

or as slow burn as they

9:40

are a solid meditation and to

9:42

desks and kind of very cathartic

9:45

in that sense i think would

9:47

to do that in audio trams

9:49

define these sort of quiet com

9:52

almost spooky the gothic world building

9:54

opportunities i can you get a

9:56

more sort of freebies settings and

9:59

as than an island off

10:01

the coast of Maine. You can kind

10:03

of hear the buoys

10:06

ringing and the winds

10:08

blowing off the shore. There's just a quality

10:10

to it that, my

10:13

hope was in writing it really was

10:15

that you felt like you

10:17

were descending with Veronica and her

10:19

team. I think I want to talk specifically

10:21

about The Descent because that was a

10:23

film you had surfaced as a reference

10:25

point earlier, Sean, and one of the

10:28

things that I think really resonated with

10:30

both of us as we approached Narcosis

10:32

was like the

10:34

general gist of

10:37

where we were going has so

10:39

much tension in it. Let's ratchet that up as far

10:41

as possible before we add the fact that there might

10:43

be something beyond human

10:46

physics down there too. What

10:48

was appealing to that and how do you

10:50

think we did? Yeah, so The Descent is

10:53

an incredible horror movie,

10:55

came out in 2005, probably

10:58

the scariest movie I've seen since

11:02

I saw that in the theaters in 2005.

11:05

And it's about a group of

11:08

women who are old friends, some

11:10

of whom are estranged from each other

11:12

for personal reasons, and they're

11:15

going on a spelunking trip, a

11:17

cave exploring trip together, which

11:20

seems like a strange thing. But other

11:22

than the sort of incredibly personal

11:24

way into and through that

11:26

movie that you take from the perspective

11:28

of the main character, it's still a

11:30

very effective ensemble. And to your point,

11:32

it is structured in a way where

11:35

you're dealing with sort of like the human

11:37

struggle, it becomes kind of a human survival

11:39

tale in the first half, and it's an

11:41

incredibly effective gripping human

11:44

survival tale. And

11:46

then around the midpoint, something

11:49

else shows up. And when

11:51

that something else shows up, I remember the first

11:53

time I saw it, just all the oxygen got

11:55

sucked out of the theater. And

11:57

I was just really kind of white

11:59

knuckled from there. and to maintain an

12:02

incredibly personal through line through

12:06

that movement from something that is

12:08

a survival, human survival,

12:11

struggle story into something that

12:13

becomes supernatural, really

12:15

carries you through some weird

12:17

stuff and some weird ideas. But

12:19

you're in it because you're in it with the

12:22

main character. You wanna see how

12:24

her story plays through. So that one

12:26

was a big reference for us. Yeah,

12:29

and I'd say obviously those of us

12:31

listening to our co-stars were basically rooted

12:33

with Veronica. We cheat a couple of

12:35

times, but it's, yeah, as you were

12:37

saying earlier, it's all sort

12:39

of locked through one point of view,

12:43

which was like a deliberate choice. I remember there's earlier

12:45

versions of the script where in the portion of the

12:47

caves, it did a little bit more cutting back and

12:49

forth between the

12:51

surface and underwater. And it

12:53

ultimately felt really interesting

12:56

and sort of very isolating to be like, let's

12:58

just stay in the water as long as we

13:00

can make this work because that

13:02

only helps us get this sense of

13:04

actually what it feels like to have,

13:06

you know, several

13:08

hundred million gallons of water for

13:11

you and safety. Yeah, I mean,

13:13

it's just inherently terrifying

13:15

because most

13:17

of us aren't professional divers. And I guess

13:20

probably most of us aren't even divers at

13:22

all. And so the idea of being trapped

13:24

underwater is something that is inherently terrifying.

13:26

And so when you layer things on top of that,

13:28

I think that's a little bit of the challenge is

13:30

like, you can almost have

13:32

too much sort of terror

13:35

cognitive load to sort

13:37

of cancel it all out. But I think that's where

13:39

we tried to organize things in a way that felt

13:42

rewarding and where

13:44

people were sort of in the experience

13:46

of the divers and sort of experiencing

13:48

that journey and the thrills with

13:51

them. There's two other movies that

13:53

I, for me, I keep coming back to

13:55

when I think about Narcosis and where influence

13:57

is too. One you mentioned before, which is

13:59

Wicker Man. Any other is

14:01

a smaller movie called Messiah of

14:03

Evil and both of those movies

14:05

came out in Nineteen Seventy Three.

14:07

Wicker Man is pretty well known.

14:10

Answer is the quintessential Soak Horror

14:12

movie. Certainly in that sort of

14:14

British horror tradition, is the quintessential

14:16

It's not British or a sound.

14:18

Certainly the quintessential British folklore phones.

14:20

And Messiah of Evil I would

14:22

say it's a perfect corollary to

14:25

it's and really is kind of

14:27

like even though it's very under

14:29

scene is. Kind of like the

14:31

Arm California so color version of

14:33

a of a have a nineteen

14:36

seventy three person in a strange

14:38

land sort of a movie and

14:40

I think the reason why. Narcosis

14:43

for me really resonates as a

14:46

folklore thing is that because it

14:48

is living at this intersection of

14:50

old world traditions I'm many of

14:53

which. Since. In you

14:55

today even if it is in

14:57

a quiet you know serve quiet

14:59

practices that are held and and

15:01

and reserved to to a few

15:03

who are in the know on

15:05

meet someone who is kinda clashing

15:07

up against that in that that

15:09

that also you know i think

15:11

as as that starts to. Render.

15:14

And and play out in the

15:16

course the narrative and veronica story

15:18

so courts hence to start to

15:21

sort of poll you know the

15:23

the membrane of reality to where.

15:26

He. Sings take on a more

15:28

dreamlike. Kind. Of like. Truly.

15:31

Supernatural quality So it's not like

15:33

he doesn't become like oh the

15:35

supernatural things that have to is

15:37

facing our ideas but that you're

15:39

sort of like engaged with it

15:41

in a in a way that

15:43

through through her and and so

15:45

then I think that's where full

15:47

color is sort of. these and

15:49

interesting traditions is that it is

15:52

the best versions a full course

15:54

or to do that. Were

15:56

you sort of become like ingrained

15:58

in that culture and. The enter

16:00

an email. probably like a really strong

16:02

recent example. This would be like Ari

16:05

Astor's Midsummer. You know, like mid some

16:07

you're in it and you get down

16:09

into that you know he has, yeah

16:11

doubt down into the depths. With Mid

16:14

So Mar it becomes a very strange

16:16

trip but you're brought their incrementally guess

16:18

what yet it sort of avoids like

16:21

there's such a trope in horror movies

16:23

or anything with magic of like the

16:25

people been in a grounded world haven't

16:27

have the moment of like I don't.

16:30

Believe the sag and now i believe in thing or

16:32

have to get over believe in as hang and the

16:34

sort of the soap horror started to me. Spins.

16:36

This idea around that like elon simpler

16:39

times and other times or in remote

16:41

places are places where like the modern

16:43

world as had doesn't have such as

16:45

hold this idea that there's more than

16:47

the modern world's scientific method can explain

16:49

to us is to sort of more

16:51

the culturally held as a thing and

16:53

so the idea that there's you know.

16:56

Sea. Creatures out there are ghosts are

16:58

thin and places or your god to

17:00

appease is all just sort of more

17:02

believable in the focus a A to

17:04

because. Yeah, you're sort of slowly

17:07

brought into a culture that foldable is bought

17:09

into this stuff as opposed to having to

17:11

go from legs. Terrorists. Skeptic Enact

17:13

one to your bought into being chased

17:15

by a demon in Act three.

17:17

Kind of. Yep, That's exactly right. I

17:20

mean it's it's feel. From the main

17:22

characters' perspectives, it's. Wild and

17:24

irrational. But. It's happening and

17:26

there's something about that sort of a

17:29

journey that is really exciting to me

17:31

as a as a storyteller and as

17:33

a fan like I like being brought

17:36

on the source altar and and I

17:38

think I'm some ways it's more honest

17:40

because if we actually have experiences as

17:43

you know, Where.

17:45

We encounter things that salt

17:47

like. He. A letter later

17:49

for I've never seen the Us All but I

17:51

I can imagine the people, it's hills very real

17:53

to them. People don't sit there saying I'm seeing

17:55

something and I can't believe it. Like. if

17:58

you've ever had an experience that felt

18:00

sort of otherworldly, it has a

18:02

way of like, it just sort of feels like an experience.

18:04

It's not like, oh, I've left the real world and now

18:06

I'm in this magical world. It sort of just feels like

18:09

a thing happened and like you learn later, like, wait, I

18:11

don't think I can really explain that thing that happened or

18:13

the thing that happened sort of defied what

18:15

my programming has told me is possible. But

18:18

you don't in the moment think, oh look,

18:20

this must be a ghost, right? You do

18:22

not have it actually. That's right. And so

18:24

to play that out in a way that

18:26

is very, close

18:30

to the main

18:32

character and keeping it within

18:34

her experience, hopefully

18:38

imbibes it or gives it a quality of

18:40

resonance that I think

18:42

it's deprived if you're too blatant

18:47

or literal with some of these ideas or

18:49

too spoon fed or

18:51

too overly logic

18:53

based or worried about everything

18:56

being very cleanly defined. Because

18:59

my problem is with stories that do that is I'm like, the

19:02

world isn't that way. My

19:04

existence is not all clearly defined. Yeah, if only

19:06

our world makes sense. So

19:09

it's like, why would I want a

19:11

story that is very sort of clearly,

19:13

cleanly delineated? I don't think that that's

19:15

what we want anymore. I think that

19:17

there was a prevailing wisdom that that's

19:19

what people wanted and maybe in certain

19:21

genres that's what they wanted, but I

19:23

don't think that, I think the horror

19:25

genre really is about this meditation on

19:27

life and death and what's

19:30

beyond. And we've

19:33

been talking with Chris Bernier, lead writer on

19:35

Narcosis. We'll be keeping our conversation about folk

19:37

horror and the occult going just after this.

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podcast. Three

21:41

more broadly as a writer or even just

21:43

a. Person. who really special

21:45

stories like what do you gravitate

21:48

to or or away for i

21:50

like things that combine qualities of

21:52

different genres like to pass cemetery

21:55

for example raise like what is

21:57

pet cemetery is that american folk

22:00

Is that a zombie story? Is

22:03

that an animal's attacks

22:05

movie? Is it a ghost story?

22:10

It's kind of all those things, but it's

22:12

uniquely its own thing. And it comes from

22:14

a real singular vision. And then

22:16

certainly things that, you know, I have a

22:18

tendency to gravitate also towards things that feel

22:21

more personal. I

22:23

think classic examples of that in the

22:25

horror genre would be movies like Rosemary's

22:27

Baby or The Shining, where you're sort

22:29

of really in the psychology of one

22:31

or, you know, perhaps two of the

22:33

characters, and you're sort

22:35

of on this slippery

22:38

slope with them. So,

22:41

yeah, but I mean, I still feel like horror

22:44

movies need to be fun, you know? Like,

22:46

I don't think—I tend to sort of stay

22:48

away from horror comedy. I don't

22:51

really get into horror comedy. I think there have been a

22:53

couple of directors who have done that real well, but

22:55

I wouldn't even kind of classify them as horror comedy.

22:58

Like, the Evil Dead movies are

23:00

fun and have comedic moments, but I

23:02

wouldn't call them horror comedy. But,

23:04

you know, for me, the energy that I

23:06

try to go for is, you know, something

23:08

like John Carpenter's The Thing, or

23:11

even Jaws, where there's real

23:13

horror at play and

23:16

a scary environment, but also like a

23:19

light to it, too, like a lightness and

23:21

a brightness to it. And maybe like

23:23

a glimmer

23:26

of hope. Well, yeah,

23:29

I feel like we've got to give credit to

23:31

some of our characters. So Billy Moyes is a

23:34

Chris Bernier original character. I think he's

23:36

become a fan favorite. You add a

23:39

lot of that because maybe he's just

23:41

someone who, you know, doesn't

23:44

take life very seriously, but at the same time is

23:46

a very, very serious—is a very serious person, the kind

23:48

of person you trust with your life. He's not goofing

23:50

around, but at the same time, he

23:52

does have that characteristic to him. So I don't know.

23:54

Yeah, I guess with that sort of point of view

23:56

in mind, is that— yeah, either

23:59

Billy specifically or Diddy. Generally, how does that

24:01

inform you? Yeah, I mean, I think you

24:03

gotta, it's a load balancing exercise for me.

24:05

And I think you wanna make sure when

24:07

you're, as a writer, I always try to

24:09

make sure that like, there's

24:11

certain, usually characters, supporting

24:14

characters who can kind of help bring

24:16

a little bit of a

24:18

pressure release because you'll need it.

24:21

And typically, the

24:23

journey for your main character, and

24:26

this is certainly true in Narcosis

24:28

with the exclamation point, the journey

24:30

for Veronica is very serious, very

24:33

personal and very serious all throughout,

24:36

very harrowing. But yeah, I

24:38

think Billy Moyes comes in to

24:41

sort of bring a little bit of

24:43

levity. I think, even the support

24:46

dive team brings certainly

24:48

some levity to it and

24:51

just brings that energy of fun and

24:53

unexpected and sort of wildness that I

24:55

think just helps

24:57

with the tonal movement of

24:59

the piece. Are there a

25:02

particular favorite scene or two that come

25:04

to mind? I

25:06

mean, I really think

25:08

that the stuff with Veronica in

25:12

the cave, as she

25:15

kind of gets deeper into

25:17

the inner sanctum is where I

25:19

sort of feel

25:22

like that's where the show

25:24

is really found, it's like groove.

25:27

If I had to be like, what is this show? I

25:30

would probably pluck out that section. Even

25:32

as it gets sort of strange and

25:34

otherworldly, I think that's

25:36

some of my favorite stuff. I

25:39

also just think it's pretty

25:41

extraordinary like

25:44

the way that the ending goes down. And

25:48

that you've got the sense of

25:50

the antagonist that's

25:52

like firing a machine

25:54

gun into a tidal wave. You

25:57

know what I mean? So it's like, it's...

26:00

It's sort of interesting to

26:02

see how it goes, I guess what you

26:04

would say a bit gonzo at the end

26:06

there. But

26:08

I also find that to be like

26:11

a lot of the sort of the fun spirit

26:13

of it. There's lots of great stuff, but the

26:16

stuff with Alice I think is interesting. I mean,

26:18

there's such richness

26:20

there because Alice is

26:23

not your average young girl in

26:25

a horror movie, but also like, it's sort of

26:27

like a mirror of what Veronica might have been

26:29

younger, but she's also like, you

26:31

know, Alice is listening to her

26:34

father and grandfather. And

26:37

that to me is a moment of pure horror,

26:40

where you're like, oh, these guys have, she

26:42

sort of has known they behind it. But

26:44

now it's just like, she's fully reconciling it

26:46

in that moment. And that

26:49

they need to sort of maintain her and

26:51

groom her to carry their

26:53

sort of dark family tradition forward. Like

26:56

that to me is just such stuff. Yeah.

27:00

And that was another thing I think we

27:02

did very intentionally was to have like, yes,

27:04

there is a monster, but the monster or

27:06

the creature is not necessarily the biggest monster

27:08

in the story. Is there

27:10

anything else about Maine that we

27:12

haven't talked about? About why is

27:15

this a state that is

27:17

such a rich launch pad

27:19

for horror storytelling? I think

27:21

Maine is this convergent state

27:23

that still feels very

27:25

much like a frontier landscape. I think

27:29

due to the cold

27:31

winters, which are significant

27:34

and very cold, that

27:36

scares a lot of people off. And I think that's

27:38

just led to a culture and

27:41

a way of life here that is hard. I

27:45

think geographically, the fact that so much

27:48

of Maine is surrounded by water on

27:50

one side and the other

27:52

side is really buttressed by impenetrable

27:54

forest. And

27:57

then we're a border state. So we share

27:59

a long. border with

28:01

Canada, obviously. And I

28:03

think there's just a, there's a lot of history.

28:06

There's a lot of undercurrent and undertow to

28:08

the history here, where, you know, there's

28:11

been sort of early colonial

28:14

struggle and certainly some dark,

28:16

sad chapters in this history

28:18

of Maine. The people here

28:21

are strong and they're vigilant and

28:23

they sort of wear their day-to-day

28:25

with pride. And

28:28

I think there's a certain integrity to Maine that

28:31

is based in the land and the

28:34

sea that is pretty

28:36

quintessential. Yeah, Stephen

28:38

King made up a lot

28:40

of things, but there's something about the character of Maine

28:42

where he's just sort of capturing the reality and not

28:45

inventing the reality. Yeah, I mean, I think probably Stephen

28:47

King would even admit that like Maine,

28:51

and the backdrop of Maine is obviously

28:53

is integral to who he is. He's

28:55

always been a Maynard, but

28:58

I think just bringing that stuff to light,

29:00

he would probably admit is

29:03

like a lot of his, like

29:05

his recipe, you know, is just what

29:07

the true nature of

29:11

Maine is and then giving that kind

29:13

of like a supernatural spin or quality.

29:16

Because the living can be hard here, you know? It is,

29:18

it is. And

29:20

we're coming off the

29:22

winter solstice period where definitely

29:26

people were checking in their stores and hoping they

29:28

had enough firewood and something in

29:30

the root cellar and trying

29:32

to meet to get through. Cause it

29:34

might, you know, it's a little weird

29:37

in these climate change infused days, but,

29:39

you know, living's maybe, I don't

29:41

know, it's still never easy. I

29:44

think I would be interested to hear

29:46

from you, Fred, and maybe this is something you'll touch on

29:48

in other portions of the

29:51

podcast, other sort of after

29:53

the episodes. But where does

29:56

this one, like, how does this one

29:58

nest within the overall lexicon? of

30:01

main things. And,

30:03

you know, not even in terms of

30:05

like the shared universe quality per

30:07

se, but just in terms of like, how

30:10

do you feel like this entry is different

30:13

or similar to the other

30:15

seasons that you've done? There's definitely something

30:17

that's much more grounded, you know,

30:19

in blood forest, there were literal

30:22

werewolves that sort

30:24

of was literal magic to use them.

30:26

And in Simpson Falls, there,

30:28

you know, was a mechanism

30:30

that maybe, you know, you know, we have

30:32

other dimensions and shit, which like, maybe on

30:35

quantum physics theory, there's like sort of a

30:37

way that all exist, but it was like,

30:39

it was executed in such a way that

30:41

was not that was sort of you close

30:44

cousins to magic. So, you know,

30:47

yes, we have a creature. And I

30:49

guess we haven't talked about that too much. Maybe it is

30:52

worth talking about our creature design a little bit, because we

30:54

did have some, you know, the funnest conversations you get to

30:56

have are like, what is this entity?

31:00

And how does the psychosphere work?

31:02

And though there's something about it that

31:04

does feel supernatural, we kind of

31:07

like grounded it in like, something

31:09

that like the idea that there could be

31:11

something underneath the sea that is new to

31:14

humanity is not really

31:16

science fiction. I mean, there's still more that

31:18

humans are discovering about the sea all the

31:20

time. And the idea that

31:22

like, you

31:24

know, just with like hallucinogens, there's

31:26

like stuff that

31:29

people experience. Once

31:32

they get a whatever a little bit of frog, like

31:35

a frog, you know, or like, I was there,

31:37

whatever. So like, the idea that there, you

31:40

could be this sort of like symbiotic

31:42

relationship with a creature that allowed you

31:44

to access the sort of like alternate

31:46

world. There's also like, maybe

31:48

even tire episodes that did not make the cut or

31:50

pages and pages, sort of backstory or parts of the

31:53

island and all this stuff that even

31:55

if it's not necessarily physically on the page,

31:57

or in the actual performances like was

32:00

there for us in the creation process. So

32:02

like we know that there is a multi-hundred

32:04

year old story of what happened on this

32:06

island, which when you do get

32:08

into moments where you're picking out certain things, like

32:11

just gives it that sense of heft that

32:13

this is like actually a real world we're

32:15

inhabiting and not just like, you know, a

32:17

playground. Yeah, I mean, I think that you're

32:19

totally like hitting it on the head for

32:21

me too, in a way that I hadn't

32:23

totally thought about, but it is almost like

32:26

Sinclair feels like this place that as

32:29

one of the storytellers behind it, I wanna

32:31

kind of return to, you know, because it

32:33

feels lived in. Yeah. Like I'm pretty

32:35

proud of like that aspect of it, as

32:37

much as we were sort of connecting the

32:40

dots and drafting off of existing main

32:42

locales, I think it feels like this

32:44

place that, that like

32:46

I can feel it, I can see the map

32:48

of it in my mind. Yes, no,

32:50

we, I don't know that we actually physically

32:52

drew a map, but I do remember us

32:55

having like conversations about what is the actual

32:57

geography here, in

32:59

this amount of time and just like

33:01

that, there is a very much a

33:03

psychic map of the island. Chris, thank

33:05

you so much for coming on. Thank

33:07

you, thank you for having me along

33:09

on this journey. Awesome, and we

33:12

hope to be working on something

33:14

else cool, but we'll, you'll stay

33:16

apprised here, dear listeners. Thank

33:19

you for listening to Undertow, and we will give

33:21

you some more scares next time. And

33:25

that was Chris Bernier, who we hope to have

33:28

back to Penn. No more stories here on Undertow,

33:30

but if you dig his work, you can find

33:32

more of his stuff online, most

33:34

easily his novella, Dead Man's Suit, which

33:36

is available to download for free on

33:38

Amazon right now. Look for Dead Man's

33:41

Suit. And for now, this

33:43

is Fred, signing off on Undertow. We

33:45

will have more juicy, dark things for you

33:47

to come. So keep an eye here on

33:49

your podcast feed for more Tales of the

33:51

Weird and the Wicked. Till then,

33:53

catch you later. Undertow is

33:55

a production of Realm, hosted by me,

33:57

Fred Greenhalt. Produced by Nicole Croyder, Associate.

34:00

produced by Devin Shepard, executive produced

34:02

by Fred Greenhold and Molly Barton,

34:04

original theme by Hubert Campbell. Find

34:06

more shows like Undertow on Apple

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Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever podcasts

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34:17

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