0:02

Madeleine Heather is the host of Reclaim Me,

0:05

a remarkable podcast that spotlights

0:07

the voices of individuals who

0:09

survived unimaginable crimes. Maddie

0:11

herself is a survivor. At

0:13

the age of 14, she attended a sleepover

0:15

at a friend's house, which quickly turned into

0:17

a nightmare. In this

0:20

week's episode of Unfiltered, Maddie shares her first-hand

0:22

account of waking in the middle of the

0:24

night to find her friend's father on top

0:26

of her. Maddie

0:28

is quick-witted and gets straight to the point.

0:31

She reminds us that sometimes when life gets heavy,

0:33

we just got to laugh to help lighten the

0:35

load. Maddie,

0:40

you and I are two very

0:42

different people who have something very

0:44

profound in common. We took our

0:46

experiences of abuse as young girls

0:49

and turned it into a podcast. You

0:52

started your podcast Reclaim Me back

0:54

in 2020, where people

0:56

you interview give their first-hand

0:58

accounts of unimaginable crimes they've

1:01

endured and survived. Where

1:03

did the idea originate from? Yes.

1:06

So back

1:09

in 2020, I think we can all remember

1:11

the horrible nature of the

1:13

world and what we were living in.

1:15

So we were in COVID, Melbourne was

1:18

locked down. We had the longest restrictions

1:20

in the world, I believe. So

1:23

there was a lot of time at

1:25

home to think about different things. In

1:27

the same year, Grace Tame was

1:29

elected the Australian of the Year,

1:32

and she's a victim survivor of

1:34

child sexual abuse from a teacher

1:37

of hers, Mr. Besta. She

1:41

platformed that at

1:44

the same time as the Me Too movement. All

1:47

of these things were happening around me in, I guess,

1:50

in society that all

1:53

of a sudden signaled to me that it

1:55

was not shameful to have my experience anymore.

1:58

I had no... body

2:00

to talk to about what happened to me really

2:03

when I was younger. People knew

2:05

about it. People were aware of

2:07

things, but I always felt like I was

2:09

a burden by sharing any of that with

2:11

people around me. And

2:14

with my parents and my family

2:16

being such, I guess, old school

2:18

farm type people, it

2:20

was a way of life

2:22

that we didn't really speak about feelings.

2:24

It was very difficult for them. So

2:27

it was kind of just unsaid. And with all

2:29

of that kind of signaling around me for years

2:31

and years, I was just very, very ashamed of

2:34

it. And I felt as

2:36

if I couldn't tell anybody as if it was

2:38

this big secret. And

2:41

with those things at that point in time in

2:43

2020 happening, I just kind of felt like maybe

2:45

I might start sharing a little bit because it

2:48

felt important to me to not

2:50

feel more lonely, I guess, while

2:52

in isolation for COVID-19. So

2:55

I started to share a few

2:58

tidbits of things on social

3:00

media. And with

3:02

that, what kind of happened was there

3:04

was so many people that reached out to me, and

3:07

a lot of them were men, and a lot of

3:09

them had never disclosed in their life to the people

3:11

in their life. And I had

3:13

this very real situation

3:15

where I was on my phone going

3:17

from one conversation to

3:19

another conversation, having the same

3:21

conversation really with somebody sharing their

3:24

story. And me saying to the

3:26

next person, oh, I'm speaking to Anonymous. They've

3:29

also said that they've had this experience. And

3:31

I kind of just had this practicality approach

3:33

where I thought, what if I could give

3:35

these people access to each other's stories? What

3:37

if I could give them access to mine?

3:40

Because in practical senses as well, it became

3:42

quite annoying to share my

3:44

own story via message time and time again.

3:47

I was just like copying and pasting

3:49

to certain people. So it became quite

3:51

a practical solution, I guess, to trying

3:55

to bring light to this.

3:58

Back then when you started sharing, sharing

4:00

snippets of your story on social

4:02

media. Your story is

4:05

very complex and layered. What

4:08

parts of it did you feel safe enough sharing

4:10

at first? Yes, I

4:12

didn't specifically, I guess, share my story, but

4:14

I shared the fact that something had happened

4:16

to me. I started to allude to the

4:19

fact that I was victimized when I

4:21

was quite young. And it was

4:23

in those discussions that people had asked

4:25

questions as well. So I definitely didn't

4:27

share my full story, but then I

4:29

did summarize it, I guess, later on.

4:31

And then, yeah, through the podcast, I shared

4:33

my own story as well. As

4:36

you say, it culminated into

4:38

your podcast, Reclaim Me. Episode

4:40

one is titled Sleepover Nightmare,

4:42

and it's your personal story

4:44

of survival. I was struck

4:46

by how you delivered

4:48

a condensed version

4:51

of a complex and multi-layered experience

4:53

in a 27-minute episode. Why

4:57

did you choose to share your personal

4:59

story before you platformed anyone else's? I

5:02

felt like it was important for me to

5:05

even write out my own story in

5:07

dot points. Like, I'd never done that before.

5:10

And I just felt like it

5:12

would make it more relatable

5:14

for anybody who wanted to share their story

5:16

with me, because it is quite a vulnerable

5:18

thing. It wasn't a large platform. I was

5:21

an individual person doing this podcast. If

5:24

they knew that I was a victim survivor too,

5:26

and that's the lens I was coming at it

5:28

with, and that would make people at least feel

5:30

somewhat at ease. And that's the lens I wanted,

5:32

was a victim survivor-led discussion.

5:36

Not saying that you don't have to be a victim

5:38

survivor to lead them, but having one in

5:40

the room or creating the content does make

5:42

such a large difference, I think. So

5:45

that's why I decided for myself. But

5:48

it was also just for me too,

5:50

to be able to get that out there, to

5:52

be able to have something to share with my

5:54

extended family, to be able to have something that

5:57

the people in my life who didn't know this happened to me

5:59

could listen to. without me having to retell it

6:01

as well. It was really cathartic

6:03

to be able to do that. I

6:05

did record that episode one time

6:08

before, and I

6:11

very quickly learned about podcasting and

6:13

how often I said, um, sorry.

6:15

Mine was wow. So

6:19

everything's been wow. Tell

6:24

me, what was your family's

6:26

reception to hearing

6:28

your story delivered on a

6:30

public forum for the first time in

6:33

a way, I'm sure no one had ever heard

6:35

before. I did share

6:37

with my, with

6:39

my family that I was doing that. I

6:41

remember my brother and his girlfriend gave me

6:43

like a slab of vodka, lime and

6:45

sodas and said congratulations, which was really sweet.

6:48

Like they just kind of said, have a

6:50

drink, you need one. And it

6:52

was, it was nice. It wasn't

6:54

something that we really discussed. I don't think that

6:57

my brother, sister or dad listen

7:00

to it. I think that my mom did though. I

7:02

feel with the family, it's still a very

7:04

difficult thing to listen to. So they are

7:06

aware of it, but they're not people who

7:09

will listen to it specifically because it is

7:11

very difficult. But my wider family

7:13

as well have definitely listened to it or at

7:15

least started to follow along on the socials and

7:17

stuff. So they're aware of it as well. So

7:20

it has definitely lifted a burden, but

7:22

it didn't specifically drum

7:24

up much conversation. As I said, we just

7:26

aren't that kind of family that shares that

7:29

level of stuff. And

7:31

that's always been an interesting thing for

7:33

me to navigate as somebody who wants and

7:36

needs to share en masse. So

7:39

the podcast has become a second family. I

7:42

was putting myself in that position.

7:44

If my family didn't listen to

7:46

a podcast that I was creating about a

7:48

story that happened to me, I

7:51

couldn't help but feel bitterly

7:54

disappointed. Do you feel

7:56

differently? It is really difficult. And

7:59

I think as... victims, survivors, we

8:01

are so empathetic and in tuned

8:03

with other people's reactions and feelings.

8:06

We as a family

8:08

have made a conceited effort like going

8:10

to family therapy to really try and

8:12

make sure that we're on

8:15

the same page and that we're

8:17

all feeling heard and respected and

8:19

I feel it's very

8:21

difficult for me at times because I am a

8:24

very different facet within

8:27

my family. My family loves me very much

8:29

but I'm also a bit different

8:31

to the rest of them and I think it's

8:34

definitely difficult but it's

8:36

something that we're aware of and we're working

8:38

through so it's definitely not like out

8:41

of sight out of mind. It's there,

8:44

it's very much present but it's

8:46

something that yeah we can't, I can't

8:49

force somebody to listen to it if they don't want to and

8:51

if it's going to cause

8:53

them more harm I don't want them to

8:56

do that either. That's an excellent point we

8:58

do have to accept people for where they're

9:00

at. You know you can't try to

9:02

pull someone along to where you're at. I

9:04

think I'm also learning that in my own

9:06

way. I'm pretty stubborn though so

9:08

I don't like to learn that lesson

9:10

but it it really is liberating.

9:13

Let's now get into the story

9:15

itself, your story. In the

9:17

lead up to what happened to you, you

9:20

were going through a phase where you felt like

9:22

you didn't have a sense of belonging or purpose.

9:24

Was this emotional state connected to

9:27

circumstance or an experience you had

9:29

at the time? Yeah it was a

9:31

really difficult time in my life so I was 13 and I

9:33

just retired from elite gymnastics

9:39

so from that age

9:41

of like 9 I

9:43

was training 35 hours a week traveling

9:46

from the suburbs into the city six

9:49

times a week and

9:51

training and competing as an elite level

9:53

gymnast and in that time I had

9:55

stress fractured my back and I had

9:57

a number of bulging discs so severely

9:59

in I remember there was a huge

10:01

rejection in my life as well. I was training

10:04

with the Victorian Institute of

10:06

Sport and they basically

10:08

said, I was too tall

10:10

and I wasn't going to be eligible

10:12

for the 2018 Olympics or something

10:14

due to my age. Therefore

10:17

they kicked me out. And

10:20

that was really difficult. From

10:22

then on it was basically a year of rehab

10:24

to try and get me back and I still

10:26

have horrible back pain because of the irreparable damage

10:28

that was done. None

10:32

of the decisions that I was making were

10:34

really informed enough. I

10:36

made the decision to quit because I

10:38

just couldn't get my body back right,

10:41

which was really difficult. I

10:44

moved back home. I went to school in the

10:46

city and then I moved and went to school

10:48

back near where my siblings went to school. This

10:51

was like a new environment. Now all

10:53

of a sudden, there's 33 hours a week that I had

10:56

spare. I wasn't a gymnast

10:58

anymore. I just had no sense of

11:01

who I was and I didn't have any friends.

11:03

All of my friends were gymnasts. I didn't have

11:05

any mates in the local

11:07

area as well. So it was

11:09

a very isolating and very, I

11:12

guess, awkward experience to feel like

11:14

so lost in being such

11:16

a young person. Teenagers can

11:18

be mean. How were you received

11:20

when you went back into your community? It

11:23

was interesting because some

11:26

of the kids that were at the school, I

11:28

knew from primary school. So I

11:30

left in grade four and then I just came

11:33

back in year eight. So I just kind of

11:35

went up to those people and said hi. Remember

11:37

me, guys? Remember me? Hi,

11:39

I haven't spoken to you for a

11:42

few years. I was well

11:44

received by some of them and others, they just didn't care

11:46

and it was fine. I'm a very chatty

11:48

person. I'm a very outgoing person. So it

11:50

wasn't really difficult for me to make some

11:53

friends. And yeah, I kind of

11:55

just started to Find my crew and find my

11:57

group of people that would become my mates.

12:00

But. There is some form of emptiness

12:02

inside you that you're looking to

12:04

fill with something else. You got

12:06

that thirty five hours a week

12:08

that you need to sell with

12:10

another pastimes. I did ballet as

12:12

you know and when that strip.

12:14

For months it. Really feels like

12:16

the ground is taken from beneath

12:19

us. For. Can enter the void.

12:21

Friday that eight of June two

12:24

thousand and seven to thirteen. The

12:27

night of the fateful. Sleep over.

12:29

Can. You walk us through the event since

12:32

that day, and whatever level of detail you're

12:34

comfortable with. Yeah and I'm I'm I

12:36

thought like by giving you be the concepts. As

12:39

you said that there was this voyage though

12:41

as decide. Last. Of sense of

12:43

self and we didn't That I I guess

12:45

I'm trying to be cool. And

12:47

I was trying to a bit of a rebel. It.

12:51

Was discussed during the week at school that

12:53

two of my friends and I would have

12:55

a sleeper I saw and one of them

12:57

studs was really cool and he was gonna

12:59

get a strings so I would have just

13:01

turned fourteen. At this stage I would be

13:03

like force and of on week old. And.

13:07

Yet we will. I thought so cool. Heads

13:09

out. So cool. Her parents were divorced. Analysts

13:11

say. It was framed as

13:14

is a really exciting time because as

13:16

well, when you're that age, it's really

13:18

exciting to be treated like an adult

13:20

and you don't understand or see possible

13:22

red flags as they stands. At

13:25

that time you're just six sizes. Be treated

13:28

like an adult, or you're as excited to.

13:31

To. Be discussed. In.

13:33

That kind of context like to have the

13:35

freedom to do something rebellious, but do a

13:37

kind of safely is also felt quite cool.

13:40

And. Yes, I'm. On that

13:42

night, my mom had dropped me off

13:45

at my friend's dad's house. And

13:48

see had a weird feeling

13:50

driving up to. The

13:52

house as well as you basically just

13:54

besides. Who. Is this

13:56

guy like you've only been friends with the Scale.

13:58

for a month or two. Like

14:00

I don't really know her. I don't know. Had

14:02

dad have never met him? What?

14:04

Are you do and ask? is going to

14:07

watch movies mom like why it's is gonna

14:09

be fine so. Had my bag

14:11

and I run inside and see stood the door

14:13

and spoke to him and he had said that

14:16

you know no don't worry about it she's got

14:18

immobile on a with gotta hi I'm fine she

14:20

needs to cause he can. And

14:22

then he'd just basically had said exactly what

14:24

I'd said: they going to. Have

14:26

some dinner. And. Watch

14:29

a movie and that was it. And.

14:31

See. Said that she still didn't feel one

14:33

hundred percent. Late as he said

14:36

that she was actually supposed to cough or featuring

14:38

satellite, she ends up driving. Because.

14:40

He just felt a bit

14:42

uneasy and. He. Died as been

14:45

something as well. to give the context of my of.

14:48

My. Parents being the way that they I think

14:50

that's been a guilt that my mom has held

14:52

since the events. says. How Bathtub.

14:54

Same and guilt because he felt like she could

14:56

have sought to say. I knew a

14:58

basically. We. Went seen as soon.

15:01

As my mom had left it was like

15:03

the drinks came out and he gave us

15:05

drinks. We were upstairs in this. In.

15:07

This very small kind of flat and

15:09

that the lad as this property was.

15:12

You walk in the front door and

15:14

you're in like a living room kits

15:16

and kind of thing. and there's a

15:18

set of stairs that kind of hugs

15:20

the wool. says. You're at the

15:22

top of the stairs. You can look

15:24

down on this site. the living room

15:26

area. So. Say was

15:28

sitting his partner and himself in this

15:30

living room area. Me and the two

15:33

girls were upstairs move putting on makeup

15:35

and will getting dressed stop. Because

15:37

we're also gonna go meet some boys at night.

15:40

And. I remember I think I have like one cigarette

15:42

thought zone for my mom and my back as

15:44

well as. Eventually we went for

15:46

war. Can we met up with days sorry

15:48

guys that were friends about from school. And

15:51

then as soon as we kind of, lest. He.

15:54

had text is he being my friend's

15:56

dad had texted or and said look

15:58

i don't want to ask anymore have

16:00

to come home. So we were only

16:02

with them for a few minutes. And

16:04

that was a bit odd because his reaction

16:06

was so like different to

16:08

what he'd been saying the whole time. He was, you know,

16:10

it was like we're going to have all of this freedom.

16:13

Then this freedom is taken away. So

16:17

we were trying to convince him to like, let us

16:20

hang out with them or could they come over or,

16:22

and it was just like, no, no, no, they're not

16:24

hanging out with the guys. So we

16:26

ended up just like staying in the living room

16:28

and drinking with him and his partner. And

16:32

eventually after a period of time, we

16:35

ran out of alcohol. So he was quite drunk

16:37

as well. And he drove

16:39

us all in his car down the street to

16:42

the drive-through bottle shop and

16:45

bought us more alcohol, which was like double

16:47

black. And

16:50

that's one of the last things I think I remember. The

16:53

next thing I remember is I'm

16:55

on my back in this living

16:57

room, which had such rough

16:59

and horrible carpet and

17:01

he's on top of me sexually assaulting

17:04

me. The lights are off, but I've

17:06

got this smell as well of just like,

17:08

you know, like old pub carpet or

17:10

old dusty carpet and like the beer

17:13

on his breath and

17:15

the cigarettes as well. Like it was just such

17:17

an overwhelming smell. But because I

17:19

was so intoxicated, I was kind of in

17:21

and out of consciousness. And that first memory

17:23

for me was really trying to pull

17:27

my head away from me. And try and

17:29

shake my head because I had something in my mouth

17:31

and I didn't really know what it was. And

17:34

yeah, I think I figured out as I

17:36

started to like choke and not be able to breathe

17:38

was that it was his flaccid penis

17:40

was in my mouth. And

17:44

it kind of went on for a long

17:46

time. And I don't, I don't

17:48

know how long it went on for. I have no

17:50

concept of time, but it

17:52

continued to happen. And I

17:54

was in and out of consciousness. Like I was kind

17:57

of aware, but not fully aware.

18:01

And I was trying to get away, so I was

18:03

like, hurting my elbows and my neck because

18:05

I was trying to pull myself away, but

18:08

there was only rough carpet underneath me. It

18:11

was like being stuck in a

18:13

dream where you can't run or something.

18:16

Like it was a very weird sense

18:19

of my body. Did

18:21

you also feel that you'd lost your

18:23

voice? Speaking of the dream motif, like

18:25

when you're in a dream and you're trying to scream,

18:28

but you can't scream? Yeah, I

18:30

definitely didn't even try to scream.

18:32

Like it wasn't something

18:34

that it was like, and there's an immediate

18:37

understanding of the magnitude of what is

18:39

going on or what's happening. It's

18:42

just you're trying to wiggle out of it because

18:44

you want it to stop, but you don't

18:47

know what's happening. So it was a very

18:49

weird thing. And I

18:51

do remember that quite vividly. As

18:54

I kind of looked up to this like

18:56

void above me, which was, as

18:59

I said before, where the staircase went up and

19:01

you could look down into this

19:04

living room. I was on the living room

19:06

floor and I looked up, I could see

19:08

this woman lean over this balustrade and she

19:10

stopped screaming at him. And

19:12

then she just went back to bed and

19:15

he continued after that. So I know that

19:18

it started, it stopped, and it started

19:20

again. I don't

19:22

have an understanding again, like I said, of

19:24

the full timeframe. And I think that's with

19:27

density of memory as well. I think when

19:29

you're in these hugely traumatic situations,

19:31

you pick up everything around you and

19:33

time seems to stand still or move

19:36

really slowly. So it could

19:38

have been 15 minutes. It

19:40

could have been an hour, but

19:45

that happened. And then she

19:47

came out sometime later, time

19:49

undetermined, saw that he was still doing it

19:51

and yelled at him again. And that's when

19:54

she ran downstairs, screamed at

19:56

him and she called the police. She

19:58

didn't run up to me to look after. to me, she

20:00

was pissed off with him. And I

20:02

remember him kind of moving away from me,

20:05

standing back with

20:07

like a T-shirt on only and

20:09

sitting on this chair, just listening to

20:12

her yell at him. Like

20:14

he just kind of resigned himself

20:16

to the fact that he'd somehow been caught, even

20:18

though he already had. It was a very weird

20:21

situation. And that also in that

20:23

moment made me maybe feel like I wasn't sure

20:26

what had happened. But

20:28

the police arrive, then what happens? Yeah,

20:32

it was an interesting

20:34

experience when the police arrived. So

20:37

it was like, I don't know, a

20:39

few doors down from the local police station. So

20:42

they were there very quickly. I

20:45

ran up the stairs to try and find

20:47

some clothes because I had,

20:50

I think, just a bra on. And

20:52

I found these tracksuit

20:54

pants, which were from our sports

20:57

uniform at school. And they were kind of that

20:59

parachute material. So you know

21:01

that when you're wearing those tracksuit pants and

21:03

your legs sit together, like, I hate that

21:05

material now. I can't wear it. I

21:08

was wearing those, I couldn't find a top. So I was

21:10

wearing a bra, those, and I think I'd found

21:13

a pair of underwear as well. I

21:15

at one point asked him to call my

21:17

mobile phone because I couldn't find it. And

21:19

I found it within the couch cushions.

21:23

I wasn't concerned, I think, at that

21:25

time of being further harmed by him.

21:28

He had just kind of sat down and

21:30

resigned himself to the fact that the police

21:32

were coming. But this would have been in

21:34

two minutes. And yeah,

21:36

there's that phone call to my mobile where

21:38

I find my mobile. So I

21:42

have my mobile, I've

21:44

got pants on. You can

21:46

see the police arrive because the lights are coming through

21:48

the outdoor windows. And then

21:51

yeah, I run outside and hug

21:53

the nearest police officer. That

21:56

breaks my heart. I'm still

21:58

trying to picture the scene. was

22:00

his wife present and where were your

22:02

friends? Yeah that's interesting.

22:05

I don't remember where his partner was and

22:09

that makes me think that she'd maybe gone to

22:11

bed in this time. I don't think that she

22:13

was standing there in this moment.

22:15

I think that she'd left again like she was

22:17

pissed off and she cracked the shit and

22:20

it was in this

22:22

time that I was starting to kind of

22:24

piece together as well that my friends weren't

22:26

there. They weren't upstairs in bed. They weren't

22:28

there. So what had

22:32

happened which I was I

22:34

found out later at the police station was

22:36

that as soon as I'd had so much

22:38

alcohol and I started

22:40

to be sick apparently and I lost

22:42

consciousness he then said to them that

22:44

they could go out with those boys that we

22:46

wanted to earlier. So he

22:49

was like look this is bad but

22:51

you know she can just say here

22:53

and sleep and you guys go out

22:55

I'll look after her don't worry about

22:57

it. So they were at one of

23:00

the girls boyfriend's houses at that time.

23:02

They're there. You're hugging the

23:04

police officer. What's

23:06

your experience with law enforcement? Yeah

23:09

mine was really varied. I

23:12

was believed instantly which is something that

23:14

most people do not experience

23:17

because he was pretty much caught in the

23:19

act and that is so rare for sexual

23:21

assault cases especially for child sexual abuse. That

23:24

does not happen. So they

23:27

believed me straight away. They could smell that

23:29

I was intoxicated and you

23:32

know they put me in the back of the car

23:34

and drove me to the station and

23:37

I was left

23:39

like in an office and this is on my own

23:41

and this is where I made a heap of the

23:43

phone calls to my friends to understand where they were.

23:45

I called my sister. She

23:47

was really drunk at the time as well.

23:49

My mom was like this is just the worst

23:51

night. My older sister's out drinking too so she

23:53

would have been 16

23:56

or 17. My mom was like what did I do

23:58

to this? so

24:00

my sister couldn't talk to me on

24:02

the phone because she Was

24:05

drinking or had to drank too

24:07

much. So my sister's friend Scribed

24:10

me on the phone and I told her what had happened and

24:14

Then I didn't want to call my

24:16

parents, but I'd called a bunch of my friends I'd called

24:18

those two girls that I was with that night. I was

24:20

just trying to be like You

24:23

know, please Help

24:25

me the daughter said she

24:27

didn't believe me that didn't happen on

24:29

that night which I again like I don't blame her

24:31

I think that's quite a horrible thing to hear about

24:33

your dad and Eventually,

24:36

I needed to go to the toilet

24:38

which obviously would harbor evidence. So a

24:41

woman Took me to

24:43

the bathroom and she said very clearly to

24:45

me Give me

24:47

the toilet paper when you wipe yourself But

24:49

I out of habit when I wiped myself I

24:52

just dropped the toilet paper into the into

24:54

the bowl and she kind of

24:56

like body tackled me off the toilet to save It

24:58

when she did and at the time I

25:00

was like how horrible I'm being beaten up

25:03

in there In the police

25:05

precinct and I don't think she was annoyed

25:07

with me, but I was also drunk for

25:09

the first time I'd just been

25:11

assaulted and it wasn't following

25:13

commands greatly, but she did Get

25:16

that toilet paper to save for

25:19

evidence because obviously his DNA was all

25:21

over it and Yeah,

25:24

it was it was a funny thing to look

25:26

back on but I love the fact that she

25:28

did that because she was so Dedicated to having

25:30

that evidence Eventually, I was in

25:32

another room like an interrogation room. My

25:35

parents arrived. I'd said to some

25:37

police at some point Please

25:39

don't tell my parents and that wasn't

25:41

because I I was afraid I would be

25:44

in trouble I didn't I didn't want

25:46

to hurt them. That's why I didn't want to tell

25:48

them but they were there My

25:51

mama asked me did he rape you and

25:53

I said yes, he did she started

25:55

crying My dad's reaction was I'm

25:57

gonna kill him. So he's gone gone

26:00

into this huge rage. My

26:02

mum is sitting there sobbing and

26:04

crying and I'm sitting there alone. And

26:07

that kind of felt very much like the

26:09

how it kind of

26:11

played out for a long time and even maybe

26:14

still to a bit to this day. And it's

26:16

not something that I'm angry at them anymore about.

26:18

It's something I educate parents on now

26:21

with their reactions when they've got disclosures

26:24

about providing support to that person. And

26:27

it's really hard to look past your own reactions

26:29

when you hear something so horrible and shocking. All

26:32

of a sudden these two women

26:35

in long black trench coats like

26:37

they were from The Matrix, they

26:41

entered the room and basically said that they were

26:43

going to take me to the children's hospital. I

26:46

felt like I was in this PlayStation for

26:48

at least an hour, like an hour

26:50

minimum. So these

26:52

two women come and I found out later

26:55

they are part of the socket team, which

26:57

is the sexual offenses and child abuse investigation

26:59

team. So they're specialist detectives

27:01

that work in child sexual

27:04

abuse cases and

27:06

they are basically dedicated

27:08

to and specially trained to deal

27:10

with children. So instead

27:12

of my parents driving me to the Royal

27:15

Children's Hospital, I went in

27:17

the back of their car and

27:19

that was the first time I heard the song, Big

27:22

Girls Don't Cry by Fergie. That

27:26

song is the bane of my existence.

27:30

The years after I basically just

27:33

couldn't listen to that song because

27:35

it was such an invert, such a

27:37

triggering response for me because it

27:40

was such a visceral feeling remembering being

27:42

that cold as well. Like

27:44

I was scared. It was dark. I had these

27:47

two strangers in the car and

27:49

I was laying down

27:51

in this backseat listening to this song

27:53

and it's just horrible. So when

27:56

it was happening to you, you

27:58

weren't really understanding what exactly

28:00

what was happening to you, you just

28:02

knew that you wanted to get away

28:04

and for it to end. A

28:07

few hours after that you're communicating

28:10

to your loved ones and your

28:12

friends that you were sexually abused.

28:15

Did you come to that conclusion or

28:17

did the police officers help you understand

28:19

what had happened so you could

28:22

communicate it to other people? Yeah, I

28:24

definitely was aware. I think in

28:26

the moment of this all happening,

28:28

coming to consciousness,

28:31

at that time I didn't have

28:33

an understanding but it was quite

28:36

quickly that I realized. I mean even

28:38

the feeling and sensations of things in my own

28:40

body, I was very aware that I'd been violated.

28:42

I was in pain, I

28:45

was not feeling great, I was covered in

28:47

like carpet burns on the back of

28:49

my body and it was a

28:52

definite understanding that

28:54

I knew what had happened. I

28:57

was aware of it and then I first said

29:00

it out loud on the phone to my sister's friend

29:02

I believe and then that made it more

29:04

real for me. The

29:06

police officers didn't coax anything out

29:08

of me or tell me

29:10

anything. They were simply there

29:14

listening to me and asking

29:16

some kind of questions more

29:19

so about his behavior rather than anything

29:21

else. You also said the most

29:23

traumatizing, this is in the podcast, you say

29:25

the most traumatizing part of it was him

29:28

trying to kiss me. That

29:30

part gave me pause because

29:32

in my own personal experience the

29:34

most traumatic memory for me is

29:37

the kissing. For

29:39

me it's because it was

29:41

the greatest display of intimacy,

29:43

the hardest part for me

29:45

to disassociate from. What

29:47

was it for you? Yeah I

29:50

think it was that and

29:52

it was also it's

29:55

a very intimate thing to kiss somebody and kissing

29:59

is something that I guess as a

30:01

young child or as a preteen, you're

30:06

very much more aware of than sexual acts. Like

30:08

you've seen it in the movies and stuff. So

30:10

there's a familiarity that you have with kissing and

30:13

how it's supposed to be and feel or what you

30:15

think that it is. And this was not that.

30:18

But I think as well with all of

30:20

the senses that we have, having somebody breathe

30:22

on your face with

30:25

the smell of like cigarettes and

30:27

the sensation of his

30:29

stubble mixed with his

30:31

saliva, like it

30:33

was a horrible visceral experience. Like

30:35

I think

30:38

because of that, it's almost

30:40

like your senses are on overdrive. And that's

30:42

why I think so many of us remember

30:44

things like kissing so vividly because you

30:47

can remember the circumstances or those other

30:49

things surrounding it so much as well.

30:54

Back to the night, how did you get home?

30:56

Did you have to spend the night in hospital?

30:59

Yeah, so we went to the hospital. I

31:01

had to have a sexual assault examination done.

31:03

So they do a swab,

31:06

they do a series of

31:08

swabs over my body. I think there was a police

31:10

officer present in the room as well. And

31:13

this woman, people

31:15

often say that this test and

31:17

examination is so traumatizing. It

31:19

was to a degree, but I felt very safe

31:22

with this woman. She was like a pregnant lady.

31:24

She was young, she was kind. She

31:26

explained everything that she was doing before she

31:28

did it each and every time. So

31:31

I remember him, for example, like touching

31:33

and kissing my breasts and licking my

31:35

body. And they

31:38

had to document that, take a photo

31:40

of that area of my body and

31:43

swab that area of my body and then

31:45

document that as evidence. So it took a

31:47

long time to go through because basically what

31:49

they're trying to get is each charge.

31:52

So there's indecent touching, there's penetration

31:54

of a minor, there's all these different

31:56

things. So they're trying to get

31:59

evidence for each and every... individual thing to

32:01

back up my story about what had happened as

32:03

well. I'm looking out, out the

32:05

door and I can out the window and

32:07

it's broad daylight now. Uh,

32:09

my parents waited in the lobby

32:13

of the hospital for a couple of

32:15

hours while that happened and then eventually

32:17

they cleared us and they

32:20

didn't want to interview me fully that night. I

32:23

had questions asked of me. I'd

32:25

given certain accounts to different police

32:28

officers, definitely. And that would

32:30

later be used in court, but

32:32

I very much did

32:34

not have to

32:36

give a full written or verbal

32:39

statement that evening. I don't think.

32:43

And yeah, my parents drove me home. I had

32:45

the longest and hottest shower I've ever had in

32:47

my life and I laid in bed.

32:50

Kind of contemplating my life at that point.

32:54

Unfiltered. We'll be back shortly. Thank you

32:56

for supporting us by listening to this

32:59

episode sponsors. Thank

33:02

you for listening to this episode's

33:04

ads by supporting our sponsors. You

33:06

support unfiltered to continue to deliver

33:08

quality content. What

33:11

about school? Cause I know for

33:13

me when everything came out, my

33:15

truth, I went

33:17

all out. I took a year off school

33:19

and I'm like, I'm not going back to

33:21

school. No way. I'm going to homeschool myself.

33:24

Mum's going to help me for one. Yeah.

33:27

I can't face that environment. It's

33:29

way too daunting for me. And

33:32

you said before that when you communicated

33:34

what happened to you, to your friends,

33:36

they didn't believe you. So did

33:38

you take time off school? What

33:41

was going back to school? Like? Yeah.

33:44

One of my friends did believe me. The

33:46

daughter of him, I think eventually did when

33:48

she realized the magnitude of what happened, like

33:50

her dad was in prison

33:53

or whatever on remand for

33:55

a short period of time, he was

33:57

also really badly cut up. calling

34:01

the police and him being

34:03

taken away by police, she had, I think, attacked

34:05

him with a pair of scissors or something. So

34:08

there was very real things happening where she

34:11

knew the police were involved, so there was

34:13

at least some level of truth to what

34:15

I was saying. This happened all on the

34:17

Friday night, Saturday morning, and I was at

34:19

school on Monday. I told

34:21

one of my best friends who wasn't there

34:24

what had happened, and she wasn't friends with

34:26

those girls. And it

34:28

was really difficult because I felt like everybody was staring and

34:30

looking at me. I was

34:32

definitely well known in the

34:34

school after that, or

34:37

at least I definitely felt like it. People

34:39

were very much aware of what had happened and sometimes

34:42

they'd ask me questions, but

34:45

mostly people kind of just stayed away from me

34:47

because it was too

34:49

horrible to ask questions about and talk about.

34:51

That girl whose

34:53

father it was is someone that

34:56

I'm no longer friends with. We are kind

34:59

of mortal enemies, to be honest. We don't like

35:01

each other at all, but we

35:03

did stay friends until we were 21. We

35:05

stopped being friends because I was going

35:07

to make a speech at her 21st birthday and she

35:10

didn't tell me her dad was actually going to be there.

35:12

So that's when our

35:14

friendship ended. And it's a horrible

35:16

thing, but I do have a huge amount

35:18

of empathy for her. I don't

35:20

know what she's been told by her

35:23

family or by him himself giving

35:25

a different narrative. I don't

35:28

know what that feels like for her. I can't

35:30

imagine what it would be like for that to

35:32

be your dad and to have separated parents. But

35:35

I also know that she was severely targeted

35:37

after that and that was used as a

35:39

slur against her a lot at school, that

35:41

her dad was a rapist. And

35:44

that wasn't her burden to bear and I've

35:47

always felt very, very sorry for her and

35:49

her sibling that

35:51

that's what they had to go through because

35:53

he chose

35:55

to act that way. Like it's not a

35:58

bug or burden for them to bear. So

36:00

I feel really passionately about that

36:03

because she shouldn't have

36:05

to feel any of that shame. It's

36:07

not her fault. Us being no longer

36:09

friends doesn't change my opinion of that fact. But

36:11

it was really hard for her in school. You

36:14

demonstrate extreme compassion and

36:17

understanding in a place that

36:19

people often choose not

36:21

to. You know the song

36:23

Sympathy for the Devil by Rolling Stones?

36:26

I do. Have you ever found

36:28

yourself torn between understanding the reasons

36:30

behind your abusers actions and the

36:32

need to protect yourself? And how

36:35

do you balance your

36:37

empathetic nature with

36:39

the necessity of self-preservation?

36:43

It's an interesting question because there

36:45

are things that I'm empathetic with

36:47

him for for different reasons. I

36:50

have no empathy with what he chose to

36:52

do. I think that the

36:55

night in question was

36:58

a planned and targeted thing.

37:00

It came out later that he had

37:02

said that I was attractive to his

37:04

daughter's other friend via Myspace Photos. He

37:07

applied us with so much alcohol as well. Like

37:09

I by the time I had those tests done

37:12

in hospital my blood alcohol level was still above

37:14

0.15 I believe. So

37:18

at least an hour or an hour and

37:20

a half, two hours after the event, my

37:23

blood alcohol was still three times the legal

37:25

driving limit. So you know I

37:28

wasn't just intoxicated. I was at

37:31

a level of intoxication that is that

37:34

could be considered you know

37:36

attempted murder. I'd

37:39

be dramatic about it but it's real. Like

37:41

as a child it could have

37:43

done very very horrible damage and I could

37:45

have ended up in a coma or other.

37:48

So there was that level. I

37:51

think that it was planned. I think that he

37:53

targeted. I think that his

37:55

actions by trying to control

37:57

us when we were there not letting us see

37:59

the boys. not letting us have the voice over,

38:01

but the moment that I was incapacitated letting

38:03

the other girls go, I think

38:05

that that demonstrates that very much as well. I've

38:08

no empathy or sympathy with him for

38:10

the actions that he chose to make. He

38:13

chose that. He's the one that's made

38:15

my life hard. He's the one who's

38:17

made his own daughter's life hard, his

38:19

own families and other children's lives hard.

38:22

I do have sympathy though because I had a

38:25

lot of people saying things like, one

38:27

person told me that they knew the warden of the prison that

38:29

he was at because he did end up going to jail for

38:31

this and that he was

38:33

being sincerely fucked up in prison. I

38:38

don't like that. I don't think

38:40

that rape equals rape. He

38:43

also has other additional children that are very

38:45

young. They

38:48

are going to have a father come out

38:51

of prison that now not only has sexually

38:54

assaulted a child and has gone to

38:56

prison, but has also then been subjected

38:58

to huge amounts of violence and

39:00

sexual assault himself. What kind of father is

39:03

that going to be to those kids? Is

39:05

it just going to bleed into more and

39:07

more damage and perpetuate a cycle

39:09

of harm? I

39:11

don't like that. I think that

39:13

prison should be about rehabilitation, not

39:17

vigilante justice. There

39:20

are some things that I empathize with

39:23

in sense of, I don't... I

39:25

didn't want him to be hurt like that. So

39:29

there's empathy and sympathy in those

39:31

levels, but there's none for the actions that

39:34

he chose to make. If

39:36

we could go a little bit into the

39:38

court process, what was

39:40

your experience? Again, that. The

39:43

evidence that they had against him was overwhelming. I

39:46

was a child. There was no angle that

39:48

they could take. There was DNA

39:50

on me, in me. There was my DNA

39:52

on him. It

39:54

was everywhere. So there

39:57

was absolutely no way that he could get out of

39:59

prison. what was happening. The only thing that he could

40:01

do was make a plea deal. So I did make

40:04

a huge in-depth video statement

40:06

that took a number of

40:08

hours to a child specialist

40:11

detective who took

40:14

down my accounts of everything. And

40:17

later on it was told to me as well

40:19

that on the night in question I was asked

40:22

by a police officer that said, did he rape

40:24

you? And I said, he may have. It's

40:27

something that I reflect on a lot. I

40:29

didn't fully come out with all of the

40:32

information to police or other people on the

40:34

night. I didn't disclose everything immediately. And

40:37

that was because I was trying to

40:39

protect my friend. I knew that what

40:41

he had done was wrong. I knew what

40:44

it was. I didn't understand the

40:46

magnitude of it and I kind of

40:48

wanted to somehow protect my friend from

40:50

her dad being in trouble. So

40:54

yes, he pled guilty. I still had to

40:56

attend a number of trials that kept being

40:58

adjourned. He was out in the public at

41:00

this time as well. He wasn't remanded in

41:02

custody fully. And

41:05

he lives near you, right? Oh yeah, he

41:07

lives like maybe two minutes around

41:10

the corner. So you were also dealing

41:13

with the fact that he could walk out

41:15

on the street and cross paths

41:17

with you? Yeah, yeah. And

41:19

obviously if he was to go and pick his kids up from

41:21

school. I don't know if there

41:23

was a restraining order in place at the time. I think

41:26

logic would dictate that he didn't do that considering

41:28

I went to school with his children. It

41:31

took at least a year for

41:33

the court case to happen. So

41:36

it was difficult then. He pled

41:38

guilty to three counts, I believe.

41:40

Three counts of penetration of a

41:43

child under 16, I

41:45

think the charges. So

41:48

he received a sentence of four years,

41:50

which I think was pulled back to

41:53

two and on appeal, I

41:55

think, or something happened and

41:57

he spent less than two years.

42:00

years in prison for

42:03

that, which is

42:05

a unique experience in and

42:07

of itself for me. I was recently

42:09

at a Stop Domestic Violence conference and spoke

42:11

about the power of peer-to-peer

42:14

connections and there's a

42:16

group of us within the survivor

42:18

community that has happened through the

42:20

Reclaim Me podcast that, you

42:23

know, we share a unique experience

42:25

in that the people who offended against

42:27

us were found guilty. So we're a part of

42:29

that 1% or I think for child

42:32

sex offenses it's actually a 0.3% conviction

42:34

rate in Australia at the moment.

42:37

We're a part of such a small

42:40

cohort who get the justice of the

42:42

justice system saying that that actually did happen

42:44

and they're found guilty. But

42:46

we also have such light

42:48

and quite frankly

42:51

infuriating sentences that

42:53

it's been a unique experience

42:56

and for a few of us to come together

42:58

and share how guilty and shameful we feel even

43:00

in feeling upset about that because we've got it

43:02

so much better than so

43:04

many others. And that's just the

43:06

empathy of victim survivors, right? Like we're

43:08

so concerned with making everybody

43:10

else happy and you know,

43:12

but it is and

43:15

was and still to this day frustrates

43:18

me that somebody who is basically

43:20

caught red-handed repeatedly

43:22

in a targeted sexual attack against

43:24

a child premeditated. Yeah,

43:26

got such a low sentence

43:29

and he was never named

43:31

publicly because of my age. He was

43:33

never, he's never received any like other

43:35

than the punishment that he received off

43:37

prison, he's come back into a normal

43:39

life. Most people don't know what

43:42

happened and if you were to google his name,

43:44

nothing would come up. If you

43:46

were to send your own kid on a

43:49

sleepover, you would have no idea that

43:51

this man has done what he's done. In Australia,

43:54

the child sex offenders registry or the

43:56

sex offenders registry is not a public

43:58

document. But again, Again, I guess that

44:01

doesn't stop the danger being there for every

44:03

kid that goes on a sleepover. I

44:06

was talking to an expert in this not too long ago

44:08

and she says, you know, you

44:10

could make the record public, but that

44:12

really does put blinders on for people

44:14

to not notice the other pedophile or

44:16

sex offender down the road. Most

44:19

people haven't been caught when the conviction

44:21

rate is so low and the prevalence

44:24

and offense rates are so high. We

44:27

don't catch most people and most people won't

44:30

make it onto a registry. So it

44:32

wouldn't make the biggest difference anyway, which is

44:34

a horrible thing to think about, but

44:36

it is true. And in the grand scheme of

44:38

things, I think, yeah,

44:41

it is frustrating to think that his

44:44

children who were infants at the time

44:46

or babies at the time, now

44:49

the age that I was when it happened and

44:52

that they might themselves

44:54

have sleepovers in the future

44:57

and we could very well watch

44:59

history repeat itself, but there's nothing that

45:01

we can do to ward

45:04

people off from that other than say, don't

45:06

let your kids go on sleepovers. Are

45:09

you aware if the partner he

45:11

had at the time who called

45:13

the police on him stuck around?

45:16

Yeah, they stayed together and had another child. I

45:19

remember writing about this in a fit

45:21

of rage. I said,

45:23

you know, a lot of the time women

45:26

or the partners of the abusers are

45:30

often victimized or groomed to be a

45:32

certain way. But once that

45:35

person knows or witnesses or is

45:37

told they can no longer sit

45:39

there and say they didn't know.

45:43

And so there they

45:45

become complicit in the

45:47

crimes that are being committed. That

45:50

really hurts to recognize

45:52

because a lot of partners

45:54

are complicit in the continuation of

45:57

abuse. Yeah. And I

45:59

don't know what had happened. in between her stopping

46:02

the sexual assault and me

46:04

losing consciousness. So she was obviously aware

46:06

that I wasn't conscious.

46:09

She was obviously where I was sick. She

46:11

was obviously aware that we were all underage and

46:13

that we were being plied with alcohol. Like she

46:15

was complicit in a lot of behavior. She

46:18

wasn't charged with anything, but I think,

46:21

yeah, you're exactly right. And supporting

46:24

partners and the children of people

46:26

who are offended is something that

46:28

I'm hugely passionate about. I believe

46:30

a lot of people don't

46:33

know. And I think I've emailed

46:35

you about an organization called Partner Speak,

46:37

which supports those families. So,

46:40

you know, oftentimes

46:42

a child sex offender or somebody who is

46:45

committing horrible crimes will just be picked

46:47

up one day and they're no longer

46:50

able to work. And

46:52

that's what happened with him. Them

46:55

having another child was potentially,

46:58

I mean, I can't say that they

47:00

had another child for that reason, but

47:03

it kind of felt that way. But

47:05

to me that they had another child to say, there's

47:08

another mouth to feed. If he goes away

47:10

for too much time, we're not

47:12

gonna be able to pay the bills. We

47:14

will be homeless. We're not going to have

47:16

anything. And that shouldn't be a situation that

47:19

a partner is in where they have to

47:21

stay with somebody because they have no other

47:23

options. The same with domestic violence. I don't

47:25

know her motives. I don't know her reasoning

47:27

for staying. I don't know

47:29

if she still is there, but I think at

47:32

the end of the day, we need to

47:35

support the secondary and

47:37

tertiary victims of

47:39

offenders' crimes by giving

47:41

them options so that they can live and

47:43

not be homeless because of them and

47:45

allow us to convict them properly,

47:49

but also recognize that

47:51

just because they're women does not mean

47:53

that they are this,

47:55

you know, quote-unquote maternal figure that will

47:57

do anything for children. They very well.

48:00

could not care and they very well might

48:02

be complicit or even actively participating in things

48:04

as well. I'm not saying that she's, is

48:06

that just as an example? In

48:09

your case, you're one of the 0.03%

48:12

whose case turns into a conviction. Justice

48:15

is quote, served and that is

48:17

with a four-year sentence that gets

48:19

reduced down to two. So

48:21

you've done all you can in terms

48:23

of seeking justice through the

48:26

legal system. Then it

48:28

becomes about you and you.

48:31

So in your journey of

48:33

reconciling your narrative of survival

48:35

with the ongoing evolution of

48:37

your identity, what

48:39

specific therapeutic approaches

48:42

or techniques have

48:44

proven most profound and impactful

48:46

for you? Yeah,

48:50

I mean, I think I have honestly

48:53

just had a lot of very serious

48:55

unhealthy coping mechanisms from deep

48:57

diving into, I

49:00

became a Paul Walter as well. So I

49:04

became a national athlete again. I

49:07

restricted my calories. I was just this

49:09

tiny little athlete who tried to find

49:11

purpose in that again. And that's

49:14

all I focused on. I partied, I did a

49:16

lot of drugs, I drank a lot of alcohol.

49:19

And it seems from every couple of years to

49:21

every couple of year, I find a new vice

49:23

and it takes over and it's

49:26

kind of just been the way that it's never

49:28

made me non-functional. It's never made me anything, but

49:30

it's something that, you know, in the last year

49:33

I've been reflecting on a lot that I

49:35

still feel like I am missing

49:38

a part of myself and doing this podcast

49:40

has given me a sense of profound

49:42

purpose. But I've discussed that with you

49:45

as all, you know, kind of saying

49:47

this evolution of myself and my identity.

49:49

Since I started the podcast in 2022, I really identified

49:52

with the term

49:55

victim survivor and the survivor part

49:58

for me isn't an act. on

50:01

the individual. I reflect on that

50:03

as something that I

50:06

have survived in a sense of

50:08

how many people lose

50:10

their lives in similar situations, which is

50:12

something that I find quite profound. I

50:16

had this term up on like my social

50:18

media and stuff, which was victim survivor. I

50:21

interviewed people as a victim survivor. And

50:24

it felt like this new identity

50:26

of victim survivor started to overtake

50:28

my life. And I'm reclaiming myself

50:30

in many senses of the

50:32

fashion now. I'm on a bit

50:34

of a wellness journey. I'm doing a little bit

50:36

of really, I

50:38

think, trying to strip personally back

50:41

what I want, what

50:44

makes me happy, and to

50:46

try and find joy again. Like I

50:48

love backpacking. I love traveling. I love

50:51

meeting new people. There's so many things

50:54

that I love. And over the past

50:56

couple of years, or since

50:58

everything really, I haven't

51:00

really coped with it properly. I've done

51:03

therapy and stuff, and I'm definitely in

51:05

a place where I feel okay. I'm

51:09

not going to hurt myself, and I'm not

51:11

in the position where I'm

51:13

not able to function. But if

51:16

I'm being completely honest, I

51:18

haven't been 100% okay. And

51:21

I've been masking that with being

51:23

a high achiever and hugely

51:26

productive, and a huge help

51:28

in the community and other facets, but I've not focused

51:30

on myself at all. So, you know, 2024 is the

51:32

year of me. And

51:37

check back in because there will be some joy

51:39

you will be seeing. I

51:42

love that for you, Maddie. I love

51:44

that for you. Speaking of you being

51:46

over productive, you maintain a full-time job.

51:48

And after sharing a personal story, you've gone on to

51:51

navigate through 111 episodes and

51:54

counting of your podcast. Each

51:56

episode amplifies firsthand accounts of

51:59

the... the evasive issue of sexual

52:01

abuse in our society. What

52:04

revelations have taken you by

52:06

surprise? Because I mean, we

52:08

all know sexual abuse is

52:10

endemic in society. We

52:12

know what's happened to us. We

52:14

know what it feels like. We're trauma-informed

52:17

naturally. So what's taken you by surprise?

52:21

It's an interesting question. I

52:23

think honestly parts of every single person's

52:26

story, maybe don't take me by

52:28

surprise, but sit with me. It's

52:31

hugely pervasive, domestic and family

52:33

violence, sexual abuse, child sexual

52:35

abuse, all of these things.

52:38

They're so prevalent in society. And I was

52:40

worried when I started the podcast that

52:42

it would just be a bunch

52:45

of, and I

52:47

don't mean this to be disrespectful

52:49

in any way, but a bunch

52:51

of white women speaking, and that

52:53

was something that I didn't want

52:56

it to be. What I wanted to create was

52:58

something that was intersectional and gave voice to different

53:00

people. And I think some of

53:02

the most profound episodes are episodes with

53:04

like Jake Burgess, who's a trans man,

53:07

who spoke about navigating the family

53:09

violence system, and

53:12

episodes with people who shared

53:15

that grooming and child sexual abuse that

53:17

happened within their family households or incest,

53:20

and how long and pervasive that was. And

53:22

the fact that people were aware of

53:25

what we would now call red flag situations, but

53:27

at the time, they were

53:30

none the wiser. And

53:32

I think a lot of people even to this day

53:34

still don't believe that things like

53:36

incest can exist or talk

53:38

about it enough. And there's

53:42

stories like that, for example, as well.

53:45

Caroline Bruni came on and did two episodes

53:47

with me, and she spoke of the incest

53:49

that she endured at the hands of her father.

53:52

And she had a younger sister as well

53:54

who was in the house. This is a

53:56

similar age. Sorry, they're not similar. This is

53:58

a similar. dynamic

54:01

for the sister, but as far as we're aware,

54:03

that sister was never touched. And that's

54:05

another thing that I found quite interesting

54:08

was that there

54:10

can be sex offenders in a household who only

54:12

choose to sexually offend against one. And that doesn't

54:14

just have to be a gendered

54:18

discrepancy. So it

54:20

is a hugely

54:23

overwhelming problem that

54:25

I think each and

54:27

every person that I speak to has left

54:29

a huge mark. And

54:32

it feels just so incredibly overwhelmingly

54:35

privileged for me to be able

54:38

to share these stories and have these conversations

54:40

with people and bring them to light. Like

54:42

to be able to give somebody this polished

54:45

podcast at the end, I

54:47

think I'm really proud of. What

54:49

I love the most about

54:52

what you're doing is that

54:54

you're constantly smashing the narrative

54:57

of what it means to be a perfect survivor.

55:00

When I was telling my own story, Maddie,

55:03

I found myself subconsciously falling in

55:05

the trap of trying to justify

55:07

my behaviors or my flaws so

55:10

that I could fit into this

55:12

narrative that I thought I needed

55:15

to fit in to legitimize the

55:18

telling of my story. Your

55:20

podcast demonstrates that there is

55:23

no one way that this

55:25

happens. You give an intersectional

55:27

approach to this. Is that

55:29

something that you've done just

55:31

naturally subconsciously or is this

55:33

something you've put effort into portraying?

55:36

Yeah, definitely put effort into

55:38

that because you're right, we

55:41

do have these subconscious narratives as well that we

55:43

fall back into. Before I

55:45

started this podcast, one of the things that I had a big

55:48

issue with was how crimes

55:51

like this are portrayed in the media. And

55:53

they're often sensationalized.

55:56

They're often five minute clips of

55:59

multiple. our interviews with

56:01

the Dun Dun music at the end. It's

56:04

often a very innocent

56:07

victim. That's a

56:09

term that I hate using, but I'm using it

56:11

for a reason because you'll hear it

56:13

a lot. They were such an innocent victim. Children

56:16

are such innocent victims and what that's implying

56:18

is that maybe women aren't. It's

56:22

not to say that there's only women who are victims

56:24

either. I've had probably close to

56:26

equal amounts of men on the

56:28

podcast as well. It's definitely not

56:30

a gendered discussion anymore. We're talking

56:33

about it holistically. But

56:36

it is a huge problem for me.

56:38

One thing that I see as a

56:40

fallout of that is people who have

56:42

experienced horrendous crimes against them will often

56:44

say things to me like, I wish

56:46

I could share my story, but mine's

56:48

not bad enough. When the

56:50

only thing that you've ever heard be

56:52

spoken about is the

56:55

abduction and torture. One

56:58

thing that comes to mind is J.C. Lee

57:00

Dugard in the States who was abducted

57:02

as a child, held captive for 19 years, had

57:05

two children, and then was eventually found alive.

57:08

It was one of the most horrible cases

57:10

you'll ever hear. When

57:12

you subconsciously have only seen that story,

57:14

and that's not to take away from

57:16

J.C. Lee Dugard's horrible

57:19

experiences. But when

57:21

you're a victim, survive it yourself and you've seen

57:23

that story, there's a comparison that happens in your

57:25

mind where you go, mine's not bad enough, mine's

57:28

not as bad as yours. I

57:30

think me sharing my story initially was

57:33

to make people at ease, but it was

57:35

an unintended consequence that people felt because mine

57:37

was child sexual assault, because

57:40

mine had justice at the end that theirs didn't

57:42

meet the same kinds of bread

57:44

to which as mine did. So it's something I'm

57:46

actively pushing against. It's

57:50

pushing against a predominant media

57:52

narrative because there are

57:54

no victims that are not innocent. People

57:57

don't deserve to have this happen to them. How

58:00

many people live with these feelings

58:02

of guilt and shame and complicitness in

58:04

themselves because they didn't do enough to

58:06

stop it? And how are we

58:08

going to increase the rate

58:10

of people coming forward about crimes like

58:13

this unless we can make them understand that

58:15

it's not their fault? At

58:17

the Stop Domestic Violence conference, I

58:19

heard Michaela Cronin speak who's the

58:21

Australian Domestic Family and Sexual Violence

58:23

Commissioner. She spoke

58:25

about the importance of not only

58:28

having lived experience in

58:30

public policy, in

58:32

government to make sure that we're implementing

58:34

things that are fit for purpose, but

58:37

she kind of spoke about having it embedded

58:39

at every level and that's something that we

58:41

needed to have. And

58:43

that's the other side of this

58:46

media thing is there are

58:48

very real, prevalent and

58:50

overwhelming accounts of people who share the

58:52

same feelings and thoughts

58:55

and experiences who aren't

58:57

being listened to or heard by who we

58:59

need them to, that being the media

59:01

and that also being government. And

59:04

when you've got this happening and you're

59:06

only listening to that kind of 1%

59:08

perfect victim trope, all the services and

59:10

things that you create are not fit

59:12

for purpose. If you've only

59:14

got one narrative and it's a white narrative, it's

59:17

not going to give the people

59:19

who are predominantly offended against any access

59:21

to those services that are going to

59:23

be fit for purpose. You know,

59:26

people in the news and media do

59:28

clickbait all the time and that's what people's

59:30

stories become and that's what I want to make sure

59:32

that I never do. You

59:34

make such pertinent points about

59:37

how the perfect victim trope

59:39

silences majority of

59:41

stories and the variety

59:44

of stories from a

59:46

variety of people. What it

59:48

also does is it suggests

59:50

who is deserving of justice

59:53

and who is not. We've

59:55

touched on it briefly in this conversation,

59:57

like, okay, if you go to prison...

1:00:00

but should prison be vigilante

1:00:02

justice or should it be

1:00:04

rehabilitation? Is therapeutic jurisprudence

1:00:06

or restorative justice a better

1:00:08

option for people in a

1:00:10

family setting as an example?

1:00:13

How do you see justice playing

1:00:15

out for survivors like us? I

1:00:18

think justice needs to be

1:00:20

individual to each person. Justice

1:00:23

for each person may not

1:00:25

be going

1:00:27

through the justice system and

1:00:29

that's something that each individual should take

1:00:34

solace in. Their version

1:00:36

or their wants, needs, desires and hopes and

1:00:38

dreams might change as well. They might say,

1:00:40

you know, I don't want to report them

1:00:42

and then 10 years later they do. They

1:00:46

might have a change of heart and all

1:00:48

of those things are completely okay. It's important that there's

1:00:50

that. On the level of talking

1:00:52

about the justice system itself, it's

1:00:54

royally fucked. You know, I, we've

1:00:56

basically, in my opinion, decriminalized sexual assault

1:00:59

in Australia. There are a number of cases where

1:01:01

people have been found guilty of sexual assaults and

1:01:05

they've been given community service or

1:01:07

good behavior bonds. One of them that comes to mind is Thomas

1:01:10

Earl who this week on Reclaim Me,

1:01:13

we're releasing the stories of his survivor,

1:01:16

M Campbell Ross and she, you know, he was

1:01:18

convicted of sexually assaulting her and he

1:01:20

got 300 hours of community service in

1:01:23

the ACT. I don't know how we can land on community

1:01:25

service as

1:01:29

a punishment when the maximum

1:01:32

sentence could be 10 years

1:01:34

or upwards

1:01:36

of that. The disproportionate effect

1:01:41

on communities that are not the

1:01:43

straight white privileged, sometimes religious people

1:01:45

in community

1:01:48

as well. It's so disproportionate.

1:01:51

Things that are factored into people's sentences

1:01:53

like having a priest come and say

1:01:55

that they're a good person and give a good

1:01:57

character reference. like

1:02:02

a judge saying that they've got good family support. Having

1:02:05

a good family support in

1:02:07

inverted commas basically is saying

1:02:09

that somebody might have more

1:02:11

support outside, which can reduce

1:02:13

a sentence significantly. What

1:02:15

that's saying is that if you come from anything but

1:02:17

a privilege and together home,

1:02:19

that you do not have that. And

1:02:21

if we think about the impacts of the

1:02:24

stolen generation on Aboriginal families and

1:02:27

we think about the impact of divorce and

1:02:29

stuff as well, how

1:02:31

are we accurately looking

1:02:33

after these people? A

1:02:36

lot of what I hear about

1:02:38

and see in court transcripts is

1:02:40

basically, defense attorneys

1:02:44

not, well, I'm going to say, pretty

1:02:46

much lying on the stand. They're making

1:02:48

up narratives and defense attorneys should be there to

1:02:50

pose facts to

1:02:52

try and counter an argument. They

1:02:54

shouldn't be there to create lies. In

1:02:59

one case, they basically said that she had made

1:03:01

it up because he didn't make her come. Well,

1:03:04

that had never come

1:03:06

up as a piece of evidence. That was just

1:03:09

literally brought up, in my opinion, to

1:03:12

make everybody uncomfortable, to put her on the

1:03:14

back foot while she was being cross-examined. And

1:03:17

again, how are we getting justice when this

1:03:19

is all about performance? So

1:03:22

there's a lot of different facets to that. I

1:03:25

will also say that a recent research

1:03:28

article came out from Michael Salter and

1:03:30

basically what it outlined

1:03:32

was the prevalence rates of offenses

1:03:35

amongst people who have

1:03:37

been offended against themselves. So

1:03:40

if we're talking about the prison population,

1:03:42

I think over 80% of

1:03:44

the prison population, of the male

1:03:47

prison population, have been sexually abused,

1:03:49

neglected, or traumatized in their childhood.

1:03:53

So if we're looking at prison

1:03:56

as a sense of deterrence

1:03:58

in and of itself, What's

1:04:00

the root cause of all of this? And

1:04:03

I think that what we need to focus on

1:04:05

is child protection. What we need to focus on

1:04:07

is enabling families and children

1:04:10

to live safely and what we need

1:04:12

to be focusing on is preventing child

1:04:14

sexual abuse so that those people who

1:04:16

have been abused and traumatised and hurt

1:04:18

don't end up being failed consistently

1:04:20

by systems that end up that

1:04:23

they themselves become offenders. I'm

1:04:25

not saying that if you have been offended

1:04:27

against that you will become an offender. I'm

1:04:30

more reflecting on that statistic that

1:04:32

the overwhelming population of prisons

1:04:34

across the world are filled with people

1:04:37

who have been abused as children or

1:04:39

in their adolescence and that's something I

1:04:41

think as a community we should

1:04:43

all have a very large reflection on. Thank

1:04:47

you so much for joining us for this

1:04:49

week's episode of Unfiltered. Be sure to check

1:04:51

out Maddy's podcast, Reclaim Me, which is available

1:04:54

for free wherever you prefer to listen. You'll

1:04:56

find the link in our show notes. Also,

1:04:59

I'd love to hear from you, the listeners,

1:05:01

about what subjects you'd like to hear more

1:05:03

of. Please send me

1:05:05

an email at rachaell.k-scott.com and share

1:05:08

your thoughts.