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breezeline.com. Hey

0:32

there, you're listening to Unfiltered, a

0:35

Casefile Presents production where we invite

0:37

people from all walks of life

0:39

to share real stories about justice

0:41

and transformation. I'm Raquel

0:43

O'Brien, and I'll be your host. Please

0:46

join me for some raw and honest

0:48

conversations. No topic is off

0:50

limits. What does it mean

0:52

to be a man today? And what

0:54

do we want it to look like tomorrow? These

0:57

are the types of questions asked by Tomorrow

0:59

Man, a social enterprise that

1:01

facilitates workshops to men of all

1:03

ages across Australia. The

1:06

organization's mission is to

1:08

reinvent masculinity by disrupting

1:10

outdated stereotypes and building

1:12

emotional muscle. For

1:15

today's episode of Unfiltered, I'm joined by

1:17

the principal facilitator of Tomorrow Man, writer

1:19

Jack, who just so happens to be

1:22

a dear friend of mine. We

1:25

discuss ways we can go about reinventing

1:27

a healthier version of masculinity to live

1:29

by. Writer,

1:37

this whole conversation we're about

1:40

to embark on centers around

1:42

disrupting dominant stereotypes of masculinity.

1:46

Now, you and I both know

1:48

you've got to help yourself before

1:50

you can help anyone else. So

1:52

how would you say notions of

1:54

toxic masculinity affected your sense of

1:56

self and your relationships when

1:58

you were growing up? Big first

2:00

question. How

2:05

did toxic behaviours impact me?

2:07

I was pretty lucky. I've

2:09

got a very flamboyant father.

2:12

I wouldn't describe him as stereotypical

2:14

at all. I've got a very

2:17

powerful mother. She was probably

2:19

the main, the most consistent kind of

2:21

financial support in our family. Hairdresser, she's

2:23

been doing it for over 30 years.

2:26

Strong arms. She was

2:28

like the real leader of our family. And then, as

2:30

I said, my dad was quite

2:33

colourful, expressive, very affectionate and

2:35

very loving. So I felt

2:37

pretty privileged and blessed to

2:39

have that growing up. I

2:42

do remember though, I've only thought

2:44

about this recently, my first

2:46

proper girlfriend that I've lost my virginity to,

2:48

that I was kind of crazy about at

2:50

the time. When I was in year 10,

2:52

we were at a house party

2:54

and we were drinking and stuff. And just out

2:56

of nowhere, she just kind of came up to

2:58

me and broke up with me and just

3:01

gave me no explanation. And I

3:03

just felt my heart shatter in

3:06

that moment. I dumped, officially dumped,

3:08

and I just couldn't stop crying

3:10

and I felt so embarrassed. People might've

3:12

been laughing at me. People might not

3:15

have been laughing at me at all,

3:17

but I instantly felt so ashamed that

3:19

I was crying as a 15-year-old at

3:22

this party. And I bolted. I

3:24

ran as fast as I could. And

3:28

I think at the time I put a real

3:30

kind of layer around myself going, you

3:32

can't be emotional. You're a

3:35

15-year-old boy. That vulnerability

3:37

is not okay. And

3:39

I think as a result of that, I had

3:41

real blocks when it came to accessing emotion for

3:43

many, many years. I had to do a lot

3:45

of work to kind of unpack that. But I'd

3:47

say there, that was probably one

3:50

that comes to mind of blocking emotion. And

3:53

I was also a bit of a late bloomer as well. I

3:56

remember taking a piss

3:58

next to a guy when I was... I was in

4:00

grade six and he had this huge like

4:03

set up and hairy and I looked at

4:05

my little guy and he had pubes and

4:07

stuff like a bush and I

4:09

looked out at my thing and I was like, oh,

4:11

this is quite different to what I'm seeing. So

4:14

I think as a

4:16

result of that, I had to try

4:18

to prove my masculinity and overcompensate because

4:20

I felt younger and smaller than everyone.

4:23

And I think as a result of that, I

4:25

started hanging out with the risk taking boys, the

4:27

guys that were taking drugs and drinking just because

4:29

I was so desperate to have to kind

4:32

of prove my manhood. And

4:34

luckily I had a wake up call

4:36

and I realised my parents

4:38

were sending me to a school they couldn't afford

4:40

to send me to and I was just kind

4:42

of smoking it away. So I had

4:44

a good enough relationship with myself

4:46

and my parents to go, hey, I

4:48

need to clean my act up and

4:51

make the most out of this opportunity. Tell

4:53

me about this process that you

4:55

went on where you challenged this

4:57

male stereotype and how it was

5:00

manifesting in yourself and how that

5:02

led you to do work in

5:04

the space. I

5:06

always felt quite different and I

5:08

felt like I was quite adaptable.

5:10

So at school, I could hang out with

5:12

those risk takers. I could hang out with

5:14

the sporty kids. I could hang out with

5:16

the theater kids, the nerds, just like all

5:19

the different archetypes. And I felt

5:21

in a way that it was like a bit of my

5:23

superpower. So from

5:26

there I kind of finished school, studied

5:28

theater for a while, but then

5:30

just catapulted into making documentaries and

5:32

interviewing all sorts of people, people

5:34

from all different walks of life.

5:37

And I just learnt very quickly that

5:39

because I'm unapologetically

5:42

extroverted, but also very curious

5:44

about the world, I just

5:47

could connect with people quite easily and

5:49

make them feel safe quite easily. When

5:54

I'm with someone, I try to give them my

5:57

full engagement and attention. I

6:00

think as a result of that, I was like, I

6:02

feel like I can go into any

6:05

situation no matter how intimidating it is

6:07

and kind of disarm a group

6:09

or disarm individuals. And

6:12

once I kind of moved away from

6:14

working in production, the opportunity

6:16

work for Tomorrow Man came about. And I

6:18

was like, fuck it, like

6:21

put me in a prison. Put

6:23

me in a like a regional town, Rugby

6:25

Club, where all the guys are like, don't

6:28

wanna know about me. Just

6:30

kind of get into the

6:32

rooms and see what you can do.

6:35

So I think it's a

6:37

result of being authentic, being

6:40

comfortable with myself, but

6:42

then also maybe

6:44

giving a sense that others can do the same. And

6:46

I think that's how I've tried to expand or

6:49

disrupt stereotypes by being

6:52

myself, but also having confidence within

6:54

myself and being compassionate to others

6:56

that might be at a different

6:58

stage. And in the

7:00

work you do, you're exposed

7:02

to different types of how

7:05

toxic masculinity erupts

7:07

in people. In simple

7:09

terms, how do you define a

7:11

toxic masculinity? You're exposed to it

7:13

all the time. Yeah,

7:16

I love it. It's such a

7:18

complex topic. And even like the

7:20

word toxic masculinity is so heated.

7:23

Jiring, I know. Yeah, it fires

7:25

people up. So I often

7:27

look at it as toxic behaviors because

7:30

like no matter your gender, I think

7:32

if your emotions go unchecked

7:34

or if you're not self-aware or

7:36

if you're not empathetic, that can

7:38

lead to pretty toxic consequences. So

7:41

let's think about the way that we

7:43

raise boys. Like I know the world

7:45

is changing and we're evolving, but

7:48

I'm still hearing very, very, very

7:50

young people say, boys don't cry,

7:52

men have to work, boys can't

7:54

ask for help, boys can't express

7:56

emotions, but that's

7:58

not gonna lead to... some like fruitful,

8:01

abundant life for yourself, that's gonna

8:03

fester. And we,

8:05

like the stats are out there, like

8:07

the suicide rate's horrific, the domestic violence

8:10

numbers are through the roof. We're still

8:12

losing a woman in Australia

8:14

every seven to 10 days through

8:17

death by her partner or ex-partner.

8:20

And yeah, your harm, full to yourself and those

8:22

around you. I think it's

8:24

important, really important to really focus on

8:26

what you said, that it's toxic behaviors

8:28

and it can exist beyond the gender,

8:31

the gender, like men and women. And

8:34

I think that helps move the conversation

8:36

forward in so many aspects. And it

8:38

really is apparent at least

8:40

that it's part of a bigger project

8:43

to shift harmful ways of thinking and

8:45

living. That's what we're trying to get

8:47

to the bottom of. Your specific role

8:50

in this process, as you touched on

8:52

before, links to an organization

8:54

called Tomorrow Man. Can you

8:56

tell me about Tomorrow Man's

8:59

mission, how you are

9:01

involved as a lead facilitator, your

9:03

role in this? So

9:06

as we've kind

9:08

of mentioned, it's a very

9:10

heated, complex, exciting time for

9:12

gender. It's evolving rapidly,

9:14

but then a lot of people aren't

9:16

at that stage yet, like wherever people

9:19

are on that journey is completely fine.

9:21

But what Tomorrow Man does is

9:24

travel around Australia, exploring

9:26

the current state of masculinity. So

9:29

we get into rooms, male dominant rooms

9:31

and chat to the blokes about what's

9:33

working, what isn't working, and what

9:35

does a man of tomorrow look like. Because

9:38

of these stereotypes, men are quite good when

9:40

life's going well. But

9:43

when we face a crisis, every

9:46

part of how we've been conditioned isn't

9:48

a healthy way to handle it. Either

9:50

distract yourself, drink a beer, she'll

9:53

be right, push it away, ignore it.

9:55

Which just isn't sustainable. So

9:58

our workshops are quite practical. people were

10:01

getting men to explore, but

10:04

then also how to practice having tougher conversations,

10:06

how to sit in a bit of vulnerability,

10:09

how to ask those deeper questions that we're

10:11

told not to ask because, oh, I don't

10:13

want to burden them, or it's none of

10:16

my business, or I'll make things worse. So

10:18

the most exciting thing that happens in our

10:20

workshops is men bust their own myths themselves.

10:23

It's not the facilitators telling them, hey, this

10:25

is what you need to do. They

10:27

do it themselves, they just need the right

10:29

environment. That's empowering. And then

10:31

luckily we work beside Tomorrow

10:33

Woman, who is doing work

10:35

in the female space. As

10:38

you know, a lot of noise, a lot

10:40

of pressure, a lot of contradictions with

10:42

being a woman. So they're encouraging women

10:44

to speak up and use their voices

10:46

despite all the shit that's put

10:48

on them. As gender

10:50

is evolving rapidly, we're moving towards

10:52

Tomorrow People, bringing all the genders

10:55

together. Like our names, Tomorrow Man

10:57

and Tomorrow Woman, who a lot

10:59

of people might seem quite exclusive.

11:02

No matter your gender, you're welcome in

11:04

any of our workshops, but we first

11:06

need to unpack the binary stereotypes and

11:09

expectations. We need to unpack them before

11:11

we can move to a more gender

11:13

fluid kind of place. And

11:16

so this Tomorrow People vision is

11:18

to have men, women, and

11:21

people who exist on the spectrum of gender

11:23

to get into one room and to hash

11:25

these conversations out. That's a whole new level,

11:27

right? Yeah, yeah, a whole

11:30

new level. Like in a lot

11:32

of our schools, like a lot of

11:34

non-binary young people, a lot of people

11:36

who are part of LGBTQIA plus communities,

11:39

it's a really exciting time. Or

11:41

I'll go to West Sydney, like

11:43

where I was last week, and

11:46

very traditional ideas of male, female,

11:48

nothing else. So that's

11:50

a challenge in itself, but

11:53

there are universal things that

11:55

connect us all together despite

11:57

gender. Whether that is... valuing

12:00

family, valuing connection. So

12:03

you can get people to connect no matter how

12:05

different they think they are, which is an exciting

12:07

challenge for me. I'm

12:09

interested if you think there are

12:12

any parts of traditional conceptions of

12:14

masculinity that are worth keeping. That's

12:18

the first thing we do, Raquel. We can't just

12:20

go in there and go, Masculinity is fucked!

12:23

And you're like, make the

12:25

world a bad place. Like, we can't do that

12:27

and it's just not true to do that. So

12:30

the parts of masculinity that are

12:33

really positive, I think, is

12:35

loyalty. Wanting to be accepted

12:37

and be a part of something and helping others

12:39

to feel the same. Hard

12:41

work ethic is really good. If you work

12:44

hard, you're able to create options for yourself,

12:46

create options for the world. Resilience

12:48

is so important. Imagine if you fell

12:51

apart every day. Think about the

12:53

people around the world that face all these

12:55

challenges and adversities that's completely out of their

12:57

control. Natural disasters,

13:01

financial constraints, all that kind of stuff.

13:03

Like, they need to be able to soldier

13:05

on. So I think that's another good

13:07

trait. But with all these things,

13:10

there's a light and a shadow side. So

13:12

the extreme of any of them isn't

13:14

harmful, can potentially be toxic as well.

13:17

But yeah, I think the positive

13:19

traits are around passion and love.

13:22

It's really exciting to see dads taking

13:24

a more gender equal role when it

13:26

comes to raising kids. And

13:29

yeah, being able to express love and

13:31

also make people feel safe as well.

13:35

And talking about creating safe spaces,

13:37

I'm interested in the approach you

13:39

take. You mentioned that it's quite

13:42

instinctive for you to just be a

13:44

safe space. But when you're

13:46

facilitating workshops across all of

13:48

these environments and you're providing a safe

13:50

space for boys and men to open

13:53

up about their feelings, how

13:55

do you go about that? What tools do

13:57

you use? Is it something that's

13:59

interesting? intuitive, like, is there an answer

14:01

to that? So I'll give

14:03

you an example. When we're

14:06

in a regional town in Australia, the

14:08

event will start at six o'clock. Most

14:11

men will enter the room at six o'clock on

14:13

the dot because they don't want to do any

14:15

of that small talk or mingling, as

14:17

opposed to with the Tomorrow Woman workshop. The

14:20

women are here half an hour before, they're

14:22

chin wagging, they're like connecting. So

14:25

what we need to do at the start

14:27

for men, especially if they feel a bit

14:29

awkward, is just create an environment that's pretty

14:31

casual. With teenage boys,

14:33

we need to make it feel raw and

14:35

exciting with a bit of humour. So it's

14:37

just like, it's just structured to ease

14:39

people into the conversation. Like, what are questions

14:42

you can't fail at no matter how anxious

14:44

you're feeling turning up to this event? The

14:46

other thing we need to do sometimes is

14:49

sometimes people come in really fired up. Like

14:51

men's rights activists who like, think the

14:54

world's out to get them and I

14:56

don't agree with those people at all,

14:59

but my job as a facilitator is to

15:01

get a bit of honesty or a bit

15:03

of vulnerability from someone who is angry to

15:06

help the group understand them and help

15:08

them understand themselves. So I'm like,

15:10

whoa, you're really passionate.

15:12

Like you almost look like you want to

15:14

derail this thing. I'd love to know, where

15:16

does your hate, where does the passion come

15:19

from? And often

15:21

enough, he's had a terrible divorce. He's

15:24

had a really bad experience in the

15:26

court system. He can't see his kids,

15:28

he's paying off this stuff off. It's

15:30

just like, okay, I understand you're a

15:33

bit more than thinking that like people

15:35

are out to get men, which isn't

15:37

the case at all. Like gender equality

15:39

serves everyone, feminism serves everyone,

15:42

not just women. So you've got

15:44

them in and you'll have these characters

15:46

come in and you don't ever know

15:48

what to expect. And then does the

15:51

conversation open up? Is that something that

15:53

always happens or? So we

15:55

start off with a very simple

15:57

question. Like what is the stereotype?

16:00

expectations and everyone has something to say about

16:02

that. So they build out what they think

16:04

the rule book is and then that's when

16:06

we can we've got a heap of like

16:08

meat to work with. We can really like

16:10

analyze it like you did. You asked me

16:12

right or what's like the positive trait. So

16:14

we get all that out of the way.

16:16

Talk about that. Has anyone else got anything

16:18

good to say about it? Okay cool. No

16:20

one's got anything else to say. Let's flip

16:22

it. What's harmful on this list

16:24

to us or those around us? What's limiting?

16:27

What's stopping us from making the most

16:29

out of this short time we have

16:31

on the world? So yeah

16:33

the idea is that you kind of progressively

16:35

lead them into a place where

16:38

they can be more

16:40

vulnerable or more authentic or

16:42

more truthful and that's

16:45

the time when like the scariest bloke

16:47

in the room will share a really

16:49

powerful story about losing a mate's a

16:51

suicide or acting like he

16:53

doesn't have a problem in the world but he has

16:55

all his self down and he's lonely. He

16:58

doesn't know how he's going to keep on going. So

17:00

usually that's the point where everyone's like

17:03

full like it's on but

17:05

you can't leave them in that place because that's

17:07

not safe. So the whole kind

17:10

of second half of the workshop is

17:12

how to make sense of this like

17:14

how do we expand this stereotype? How

17:16

do we have better conversations? How

17:19

do we role model honesty? How

17:22

do we explore honesty so that by the time

17:24

they walk out they go full. I've

17:26

seen a guy cry. I've had

17:29

a small conversation with someone. I've shared

17:31

a bit about my life. I've answered

17:33

questions. I've asked questions. What does that

17:35

look like when I'm out there in

17:37

the real world? Because one of the

17:39

biggest issues with men I find that connects

17:41

to a lot of the issues. Men want

17:44

to help others because that's

17:46

very stereotypical but they don't want

17:48

to receive the help themselves. So

17:50

it's like I'll help you. Hey you all

17:53

right? Are you okay? Let me help you

17:55

but they don't want the help themselves. So

17:57

that's the gridlock because it's like it's too

17:59

scary. vulnerable to go, I don't have all

18:01

the answers, I need help, I'm struggling. So

18:04

everyone's just kind of walking around with

18:06

bravado. So what we're trying to

18:08

teach guys is that's nice that you want

18:10

to ask them how they are. If you're

18:13

able to be the first one to shed some

18:15

tears or not have all the answers and be

18:17

a bit vulnerable, it's going to make it so

18:19

much easier for the person that you want to

18:21

help. Right. These are really

18:23

important points. I mean, the power of

18:26

tears, tears are a big part of

18:28

this and also the power of vulnerability

18:30

in action, witnessing that and then feeling

18:32

like, oh, I can be that in

18:34

this space, even if it's only for

18:36

that time that instigate so much real

18:38

change going forward. And you've

18:41

worked with, I think I read on

18:43

the website at least over 65,000 boys

18:45

and men

18:48

across Australia. I'm

18:50

interested to know about some common

18:53

themes in the feedback

18:55

that you're receiving from these boys and

18:57

men who've participated in your workshops. Before

19:00

I jump on to that, could I just

19:02

jump to your point, what you said about

19:04

tears and vulnerability? I just

19:07

love what you said. Everyone

19:09

cries like everyone cries. And

19:11

that's a really exciting thing

19:13

to unpack in a workshop

19:15

that no matter who

19:17

you are, we don't know the reasons

19:20

why you cry, but you cry. It's

19:22

very normal. So we're trying to really

19:24

normalise that. Don't ever be ashamed of

19:26

crying. Don't shame others for crying. Tears

19:28

is literally your body's way of processing

19:30

emotion. It's the best thing you can do.

19:32

So yeah, we're trying to help guys understand that.

19:34

Don't be embarrassed. It's all good. And

19:37

then vulnerability is bloody exciting. Like

19:40

when someone's being vulnerable, you focus in on

19:42

them and you get, that's when your hairs

19:44

prick up on your arms because you're like,

19:47

wow, this is different to superficial chit chat

19:49

or banter. This is like

19:51

someone being really real. And it's like, I

19:53

want to, I have stakes in the game

19:55

now. That's a weird metaphor. It's like, like,

19:58

yeah, I'm in this race. Yeah,

20:00

I'm excited. Yeah. People think that if

20:02

you're vulnerable, it's going to shift the

20:04

mood, but it doesn't. It just really

20:06

expands what your conversations can be and

20:08

prepares you better for the

20:10

ups and downs of life. Totally.

20:12

And I just wanted to say on

20:15

that point, cause at the start of

20:17

our conversation, we were saying, it's not

20:19

toxic masculinity, it's toxic behaviors. And I

20:21

was thinking how there's, I even remember

20:23

there's a song by Fergie that big

20:25

girls don't cry. And I'm someone who

20:27

expresses my emotions. Like I cry a

20:30

lot. And it's just a natural way

20:32

of me processing things, tears of joy,

20:34

tears of pain, tears of just

20:36

emotion, overwhelmed by emotion. And I

20:39

have so many times in my life that people have been

20:41

like, why are you crying? Stop crying. They just want it

20:43

to stop so they don't have to deal with it. Right. What

20:46

a gift. Like what a gift that you're

20:48

able to feel the full

20:50

gamut of life. And that's what

20:52

makes children so incredible. They have

20:54

full access. Like my kids go

20:56

from like a lace of happiness

20:59

to like feeling so, like

21:02

the world is caving in on them

21:04

and then jumping to hyperactivity and then

21:06

going from there to real tenderness. Like

21:08

it's such a gift, but unfortunately us

21:11

as parents and society shames

21:13

it out of them or limits them

21:15

from being able to access it, cutting them

21:17

down, going, don't cry, or don't

21:20

be too much or that kind of thing. The

21:22

whole, the whole stereotype or

21:24

expectations with women crying is really

21:26

interesting and complex too. It's like,

21:29

she's being hysterical or she's being

21:31

too emotional. So even women in

21:33

their own way are kind of

21:35

being put down for, for being

21:37

emotional, even though yeah, it's a

21:39

superpower. Unfiltered.

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22:58

Let's go back to the question,

23:01

the feedback. Do you remember it? Yeah, yeah.

23:03

What are we hearing from boys and men

23:05

across the country? Men

23:07

know they need to talk. Like

23:10

they understand that. They just don't

23:13

necessarily know how. Or they're

23:16

so terrified in talking that they're going

23:18

to break this facade of what they've

23:20

built to be a man. So at

23:23

this school last week in

23:25

Western Sydney, very multicultural, very

23:27

kind of traditional ideas of

23:30

masculinity. And these boys, like you watch them,

23:32

they're in year 10, they're 15 years old

23:35

and they're just trying so hard to seem

23:37

like they're tough and that they don't give

23:39

a shit about anything and taking the piss

23:41

out of everything. And I'm like,

23:44

boys, like I'm just thinking to myself, I'm

23:46

like all you want to do is just

23:48

be accepted. Like that's all that you want.

23:51

And I watch it at the start and I'm

23:53

just like, okay, what's the deal?

23:55

But then like the toughest,

23:58

most charismatic guy, this big, beautiful, Polynesian

24:00

boy gets up and he's like, he

24:02

looks like a fully grown man and

24:04

he's so soulful and he's only been

24:07

taking the piss the whole time but

24:09

he starts sharing this story about when

24:11

he was 13 he had

24:13

his best mate in the world who he lost

24:15

to suicide and it completely shattered his world and

24:17

his idea of what it meant to be a

24:20

man. He was like I thought I was there

24:22

for him like I thought I

24:24

thought if he was gonna come to anyone it

24:26

was me and he goes what's taught me is

24:29

I need to I need to

24:31

do more I need to show my people more that

24:34

I'm there for them and I need to

24:36

check in on them but I also need

24:38

to tell them when I'm struggling. So that's

24:40

a kind of long way of saying that

24:42

yeah guys want to change they just need

24:45

to actually be able to practice it and

24:47

make it kind of tangible and right because

24:49

what ends up happening is he

24:51

expresses himself that way and we get feedback from

24:54

the group and he's probably thinking they're going to

24:56

think I'm weak they're going

24:58

to not want to be mates with

25:00

me anymore that's too heavy I'm

25:03

burdening them but what do you think

25:05

the boys say to him? The opposite. The

25:07

opposite they go that's the gutsiest thing

25:09

I've ever seen that's the most inspiring

25:11

thing I've ever seen you are so

25:13

I don't want to get too gendered

25:15

but like you're ballsy yeah like all

25:18

these quite strong kind of masculine traits

25:21

and that's just like that blows their

25:23

mind a bit because they've been so

25:25

fearful that if they ever express themselves

25:27

that way that they're going to lose

25:29

respect from the cohort but it's the

25:31

opposite it's just it's influential and it

25:33

gives people permission to do the same.

25:36

It's really interesting because you

25:38

talk about how they're not

25:40

sharing because they want to

25:42

be accepted but really when

25:45

you're authentic you're accepted that's

25:47

just what we're talking about

25:49

before being authentic you will

25:51

get be accepted by these

25:54

people because people respond to

25:56

authenticity. Like it might be

25:58

just being Australian actually just

26:00

an Australian cultural thing, but there's always

26:02

thing around the boys. Don't dog the

26:04

boys. The boys are everything. They're basically

26:06

just saying like loyalty ahead of anything

26:08

else, ahead of relationships, ahead of family,

26:11

that kind of thing. And they

26:13

claim to care about each other so much, but

26:15

really they don't, a lot of them don't know

26:17

much about each other at all. They talk about

26:19

the boys, they talk about the boys, but it's

26:22

like if all you can

26:24

do is talk about superficial things,

26:26

your friendships aren't going to last

26:28

like very long. So we're trying to

26:30

encourage them going, if you care about your

26:32

mates, your friends, your peers as much as

26:34

you claim to, you need to

26:37

know everything about them because that's the

26:39

social fabric that will make your friendships

26:41

and relationships have longevity because you've been

26:43

through thick and thin with them, not

26:45

just the kind of the

26:47

good moments. You've also been with someone

26:49

when he's lost someone or he's going

26:51

through a mental health issue and you're

26:53

able to sit beside him and not

26:55

just like whack him on the back

26:57

or distract him or get him to

26:59

drink like you're actually with someone through

27:01

a pivotal defining life moment. And that's

27:03

a good challenge to give to boys

27:06

going, if your mates mean that

27:08

much to you, how far are you willing

27:10

to go? That's a great question.

27:13

We're talking about these issues in

27:15

an Australian context and something that

27:17

just came to my mind was

27:19

how you confront the

27:21

issue in Australia of tall

27:23

poppy syndrome. I mean,

27:26

Ronique in Australia. That's

27:28

a whole other thing that makes our work

27:30

complex. Like a lot of guys will sit

27:32

back going, oh, my life isn't that odd

27:35

and my life isn't that exciting. It's pretty

27:37

ordinary. I've got nothing to say or I

27:40

don't want to sound like I'm

27:42

talking myself up. So we've

27:44

got to disarm that. If

27:46

a guy gets up and shares, it's very

27:49

important that we tell the next group, hey,

27:51

don't compare yourself to him. We want your

27:53

share to be completely different. So

27:56

it's just about kind of calling it

27:58

out and helping people understand. and

28:00

that you're not being arrogant if

28:02

you share. It's helpful. It's

28:04

helpful for people to kind of hear

28:06

these stories. So yeah,

28:08

Tall Puppy Syndrome. I say probably

28:10

play out more in regional towns

28:12

and in metropolitan areas. And

28:15

in like football clubs or

28:17

sporting clubs, I imagine. Yeah,

28:20

yeah. The exciting thing about

28:22

sports clubs is it's changed

28:25

so significantly from like the

28:27

1970s. So

28:29

a lot of clubs are realising that

28:32

mental health, good mental health is

28:34

conducive and positive for a club.

28:37

And we get a lot of work

28:39

out of clubs understanding that the trust

28:41

you build off the field translates to

28:43

on the field. So if you really

28:45

understand your teammates, if you really care

28:47

about them, you'll go that extra distance

28:50

and put your body on the line

28:52

to help one of your teammates out.

28:54

So yeah, for me, sporting

28:56

clubs are really exciting place to

28:58

work at because the stereotype

29:01

is rampant, but

29:04

then once

29:06

they challenge the stereotype, there's just a huge

29:08

relief because all the guys are like, oh,

29:10

okay. Like

29:13

this is who sits behind that. And

29:15

it's like, okay, I don't have to

29:17

hold this bravado all the time. Like

29:19

we're all got issues. We've all got

29:22

ups and downs, vulnerabilities, all of that.

29:25

We're talking about tomorrow, man. And

29:27

it's really apparent it's informed by

29:29

a need to improve mental health

29:31

and talk about mental health and

29:34

prevent men from inflicting harm on

29:36

themselves and on others. So my

29:38

mind goes straight to obviously suicide

29:40

and you mentioned before domestic violence.

29:42

What it makes me think about

29:44

is we're speaking about vulnerability and

29:46

the power in that. And then

29:48

on the other side of the

29:50

equation, we need to talk about

29:53

anger and rage and healthy

29:55

ways to channel those

29:57

emotions. Yeah. Yeah.

30:00

No, like I just want to make it

30:02

very clear. I'm not justifying

30:04

domestic violence in any way.

30:07

Let's like think about this kind of timeline.

30:10

So let's think about a boy, the

30:13

kid we were talking about before who has

30:15

complete emotional range. And

30:17

he gets put into a social environment. He

30:19

learns pretty quickly, boys do this, girls do

30:21

that. And what he

30:24

ends up learning as a teenager is as

30:26

a boy, the only emotions I can express

30:28

is either happiness or anger.

30:31

They're the only two that I can express. So I

30:33

can have a good time, I can have a laugh,

30:35

I can give shit to people, or

30:37

I can be angry, moody,

30:40

violent, that kind of thing. In

30:43

high school, boys express emotion via anger,

30:46

which tends to violence. So I've got

30:48

an issue with that guy, we're gonna

30:50

fight it out, now we're mates again,

30:52

it's all good. So you can

30:54

kind of get away with that. Then you finish school

30:57

and similar things might happen. You fight on

30:59

the sporting field, or you have a fight

31:02

at the bar or pub or that kind

31:04

of stuff. And your mates break it up

31:06

and it's all good. But you've been spending

31:08

the first like 20 to 25 years of

31:11

your life expressing emotion

31:14

via anger, which then

31:16

leads to violence. So

31:19

then you end up in

31:21

a relationship with someone and relationships

31:23

are complex. And

31:25

a lot of it is to do with

31:27

communication and compromise and negotiation

31:30

at sometimes. But these guys are

31:32

being raised to be so limited

31:34

that all they can do is

31:36

shit, I feel under attack, or

31:39

I feel vulnerable, I'm gonna go to anger. And

31:42

like, it's no wonder. So

31:45

to kind of counter that, we

31:47

have a real responsibility with kids

31:49

in particular, of helping

31:51

them understand that there's so much more

31:54

to life and anger and happiness. Like

31:57

I do a game with my kids where...

32:00

you keep calling out a different emotion and

32:02

you have to try to see who can

32:04

come up with the most emotions. It's kind

32:06

of like I share one then I share

32:08

one. So it's just giving them like understanding

32:11

and like a dialogue or language

32:13

around all the emotions that are

32:15

out there. And yeah, that's the

32:17

other thing. You need to have spaces,

32:19

at least one person in your life that you

32:22

can be vulnerable with and

32:24

also helping understand anger a bit.

32:26

Men are also walking through life with

32:28

unresolved trauma and we need to

32:30

get to that as early as possible.

32:32

So the work you're doing with young

32:35

boys is particularly important. And

32:37

help seek, like go if you don't

32:39

have anyone you can talk to like

32:41

there's so many different services out there.

32:43

You can do it via

32:45

text, you can do it online chat,

32:48

you can do it on FaceTime, like

32:50

there's so many things out there. And

32:52

yeah, I've found at least seeing a

32:55

therapist once a month has been so

32:57

good for my friendships, for my relationships,

32:59

for my job, just someone you can

33:01

talk to who's just objective and doesn't

33:03

spend every day with you. So they're

33:05

able to kind of reflect

33:07

certain things back to you, ask you

33:09

certain questions, help you realize things. I

33:13

think that would really help with not

33:15

going to violence. It's so powerful

33:17

to listen to a man talk

33:19

about all of this. It's not conversations

33:22

that I'm used to having. You mentioned

33:24

a little while ago about your two

33:26

boys. I mean, you're a father

33:28

of two young boys. And

33:31

I always think about how your

33:33

professional life bleeds

33:36

into your personal life and vice versa.

33:38

What is it like for you as

33:40

a father to socialize your boys in

33:43

a way that aligns with the work you

33:45

do? And how do

33:47

you do that when they're going out

33:49

into the world and other places like

33:52

school or sport, where the same ideas

33:54

may not apply? Like how are you

33:56

navigating that? I

33:58

love that question. I feel like

34:00

I'm under so much pressure because of what

34:02

I know and what I do for work

34:04

that I need to raise good boys. And

34:07

I think like so far, so good, but

34:09

I sit there in high school rooms and

34:11

I'm like terrified for my boys. I'm like,

34:13

like it is changing, but it's

34:15

still not changing fast enough. So

34:17

me and my partner have made

34:19

a very, very conscious effort to

34:24

help the boys understand what stereotypes are.

34:26

So we call them pretend boy and

34:28

girl rules. So my eldest

34:30

will come home to me and he'd go, guess what?

34:32

I go, what? And he goes, another pretend boy and

34:35

girl room. And I go, what was it today? And

34:37

he said, oh, they said boys can't dance. I

34:40

go, what do you think about that? And he goes, boys

34:42

can dance, we love dancing. I'm like spot on, we

34:44

can dance. He's

34:46

like doing the choir because he likes

34:48

singing and they're doing like bangers, like

34:50

stop right now by the Spice Girls

34:52

and like a few Elvis songs. And

34:54

I was chatting to a mate of

34:56

his in the year above going, Wolfie's

34:58

doing choir. I wanted to do choir,

35:00

but I didn't do it because I didn't think boys should do it. And

35:03

I go, no, that's not true. That's just a

35:05

pretend boy and girl rule. Like you can

35:07

sing, like boys can sing, that's fine.

35:11

So that's one thing that we've kind of

35:13

done. I love that. Fact

35:15

is I can socialize them

35:17

as much as I want and teach

35:20

them as much as I want about

35:22

these stereotypes. But my other job

35:24

is to make them confident enough in

35:26

themselves because they will get shamed. Fact

35:29

is he's already experienced in prep. So

35:31

his first year of school, boys

35:33

don't have long hair and boys can't do that. And

35:36

I've said to him, I go, how

35:38

do you feel about your hair? Like, do you want to

35:40

cut it? Cause if you want to cut it, you can cut it. And he

35:42

goes, no, I like it. So I'm like,

35:44

okay, great. And it's probably cause I've got long hair too.

35:46

So it makes it a little bit easier for him. But

35:50

unfortunately society

35:52

and parents in particular handing

35:56

these stereotypes to the kids, even

35:58

from before they're born. Yeah. Someone's pregnant. What

36:00

are you having? A boy or a girl?

36:03

Okay, what shit? How am I going to prepare

36:05

their room? What colours am I going to give

36:07

them? What toys am I going to give them?

36:09

Like that was another thing that happened with my

36:11

eldest. One of the kids

36:13

had a birthday party in his classroom and

36:16

the boys got a type of lolly bag

36:18

which is Spider-Man and superheroes and then the

36:20

girls got unicorns and stuff. And I said

36:22

to him, I go, which one did you

36:24

want? He goes, I wanted the unicorns one.

36:27

And I go, yeah, how crazy is that?

36:29

I know because you can't, you're the consecrates.

36:31

Like I don't really like Spider-Man. I'm like,

36:33

oh, Spider-Man's all right. But anyway, I

36:36

digress. But yeah, parents are handing

36:39

this rule book to kids. So

36:42

it's just very important. Well, yeah,

36:45

well, I think it's important that

36:47

you help a kid realise

36:49

that, yeah, they can be kind of whatever

36:51

they want to be. And it's

36:53

not only parents that's embedded in pop

36:55

culture, music, books. Every,

36:58

everywhere we look in, as you say,

37:00

it's advertising. Exactly. And part of when

37:02

you talk about, you know, you can

37:05

only do so much as a parent.

37:08

I want to tie that into

37:10

another element of tomorrow man's mission.

37:12

And that is to build emotional

37:14

muscle in this difficult

37:17

world we live in. So maybe you can

37:19

speak to that. So

37:21

like anything that you want to get

37:23

good at, you're not just going to

37:25

become a pro at it overnight. So

37:27

we talk about this idea of sitting

37:30

in emotion or expressing emotion as strengthening

37:33

a muscle. Even this idea that it can

37:35

hurt a bit when you're strengthening a muscle.

37:37

It's the same thing with emotion. Like

37:41

the idea is how you expected on

37:43

the toughest day of your life to

37:45

reach out for help to

37:48

your people if you've never spoken

37:50

about anything that has emotional weight

37:52

or intensity before. It's nearly impossible.

37:54

So the idea of building emotional

37:56

muscle is being able to express

37:58

a bit each time. Test

38:00

it out with your friends, test it out

38:02

in your relationships, like see how it goes.

38:05

Because it's just too big of a stretch

38:07

to then, yeah, when you're feeling suicidal, just

38:09

suddenly go, okay, I'm going to call up

38:11

this guy, tell him I'm feeling suicidal. So

38:14

it's just, yeah, preparing you more to be

38:18

able to have

38:21

the conversations that you need to have. The

38:23

other thing that men need to practice at

38:25

when it comes to emotional muscle is this

38:27

idea of holding space because

38:29

of the way we condition boys. We're very logical

38:31

and we problem solve everything. So if a mate

38:33

comes up to me with a problem, hey, hey,

38:35

I'm going to cut you off. This is what

38:37

we do. You need A, B and C. Solution,

38:40

solution. It's all good. I'm uncomfortable.

38:42

I'm going to give you a solution.

38:44

So the best mates are the ones

38:46

who can just sit down and listen

38:49

and be beside you as you're being

38:51

vulnerable and just be very present and

38:53

very supportive. And once they're finished speaking,

38:55

maybe followed up with another question, not

38:58

a question you've prepared in your head,

39:00

but a question that you based off

39:02

what the person has just shared to

39:05

help them unpack it further. So

39:07

they're the best friends you'll have for life. The

39:10

ones who can just sit with you in silence

39:12

as you're going through a tough time. Because

39:14

if you're the one that always gives people

39:16

advice, they're not going to go to you

39:19

because it's like that advice might serve you,

39:21

but maybe my, maybe my issue is

39:23

a bit different or a bit more complex or something.

39:27

So that's a little bit about emotional muscle. Look,

39:29

right. I'm just so inspired

39:31

by the work you're doing in this

39:34

space. And I would like to

39:36

know if there's anything you'd like to say in

39:38

closing to any boys or men who may be

39:40

listening to this. What I'd love

39:42

to say to any boys or men listening to

39:44

this is tell your people what they mean to

39:47

you. Often we wait to a

39:49

near death experience before we say, Oh, Hey, I want

39:51

to tell you that I love you. I

39:53

want to tell you, like get into the habit of

39:55

doing it now. The person you say to might feel

39:57

a bit awkward and not know what to say. I

40:00

promise they won't tell you to piss off. Like,

40:03

just please tell your people what they

40:05

mean to you. I just

40:07

think that can change lives. Thank

40:12

you for tuning in to this week's episode of

40:15

Unfiltered. To learn more about

40:17

Tomorrow Man and see what they're up to, visit

40:21

www.tomorrowman.com.au. www.tomorrowman.com.au

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