0:10

I didn't feel I wasn't

0:10

confronted by by people reacting

0:13

to my race or the races, like

0:13

when I went into small towns to

0:17

go shopping or go to the Walmart

0:17

or whatever. But I also know

0:21

that I was viewed as like

0:21

neutral. I don't know, being

0:23

being Indian is like an

0:23

interesting, it's an interesting

0:26

position because you almost get

0:26

treated like,

0:28

you know, the model minority... I'm not seen as a threat.

0:35

This is united states

0:35

of race, personal stories of how

0:39

our earliest memories determine

0:39

a lifetime of relationships. I'm

0:44

your host, DB Crema. When did you become race aware?

0:54

My notion of being

0:54

different, of being an other - I

0:59

first noticed that when I moved

0:59

to Australia when I was nine and

1:02

a half or 10. Because for the

1:02

first time, I was surrounded by

1:06

people who really looked

1:06

different from me. It took me a

1:09

while to adjust to the notion

1:09

that I was in this other bucket.

1:12

You know, it wasn't part of the

1:12

default, the default setting.

1:16

And I think the first time I

1:16

realized that that was or felt

1:19

like that was a bad thing - I

1:19

was in like, fourth grade, fifth

1:24

grade. And we got paired up with

1:24

kindergarten kids or first

1:28

graders, as buddies or mentors.

1:28

And I was like, Okay, well,

1:31

sure, I'll do it. I was very

1:31

academically inclined, like,

1:34

really wanted to be help, very

1:34

bossy. And this little girl, you

1:39

know, we talk to each other or

1:39

whatever. And one day, she just

1:42

got upset with me about something. And she said, Get away from me and what she does

1:44

get away from you smell like

1:47

curry. And it was the first time

1:47

that I'd ever heard anything

1:52

like that. And I didn't

1:52

understand. I was so confused.

1:56

And I think I talked to my

1:56

cousin about it when I got home.

1:59

I was like, why would she say

1:59

that? Do I smell? And that was

2:02

sort of my introduction to it's

2:02

not just that I look different.

2:06

Or that people think I have

2:06

elephants in my backyard in

2:08

Bombay. It's like, no, it's,

2:08

it's deeper than that.

2:14

What was that about?

2:17

When I moved to Sydney, the

2:17

children I met there, you know,

2:21

friends were very curious about

2:21

what my life was, like, asked me

2:24

about elephants and cows and

2:24

like was I near a jungle. You

2:27

know, just these very exotic

2:27

ideas. When I went back to

2:31

Bombay, Mumbai, my friends there

2:31

wanted to know about kangaroos

2:35

and you know, did I live in the

2:35

bush? What was my life like.

2:40

Like, there were these, these

2:40

very obviously, like,

2:42

entertaining childish notions of

2:42

what life in a different country

2:45

was like. And I'm just always

2:45

delighted by that.

2:49

It's this romanticized

2:49

view, probably from watching

2:52

Saturday morning cartoons.

2:54

Yeah, it's interesting,

2:54

because I think as a child, that

2:56

sort of, it makes sense, right?

2:56

Your world is small, you know.

2:59

There can be this curiosity

2:59

about somebody else's

3:01

experience, or, or existence or

3:01

whatever, even if they don't

3:04

understand it, or can't. It's

3:04

always this kind of amazing

3:07

moment when kids realize, like,

3:07

oh, your life is totally

3:09

different from mine, like, you

3:09

know, tell me more. It's not,

3:12

it's not this automatic fear.

3:12

And I think as adults, when you

3:17

realize that somebody else's

3:17

life is so different or somebody

3:19

else's existence is so

3:19

different. Their instinct can be

3:22

denial, right, to say, I don't

3:22

think that can be true. We tend

3:25

to deny other people's

3:25

experiences when we can't

3:27

understand them, versus being

3:27

curious about them.

3:31

And what was it like when you came to the US? You came as an adult, and that was a

3:32

completely different culture.

3:36

Yeah, it felt very

3:36

familiar. Like when I came out

3:39

of the airport in Boston, and

3:39

heard the accents and

3:42

everything, you know, growing

3:42

up, on like American TV, and

3:45

movies, and all of that, I felt

3:45

immediately like I knew where I

3:49

was. So I was born in the US. My

3:49

parents were here as grad

3:54

students from India. And my

3:54

parents moved back to India,

3:58

when I was two, decided they

3:58

wanted to go back and help, you

4:02

know, fix the country, like make

4:02

a difference at home. And I

4:07

moved to the states in 2010, for

4:07

Business School, so it didn't

4:11

feel that jarring, actually, for

4:11

me. I think those moments of

4:16

like shock or surprise, were

4:16

present for me at Business

4:21

School, when it was like, our

4:21

class split really along racial

4:26

lines in terms of like, social

4:26

interaction, and it was

4:29

considered totally normal. And I

4:29

don't think it was, you know,

4:31

conscious, but it was clearly

4:31

visible. Everyone knew it was

4:34

happening. And the Indians

4:34

would, you know, hang out with

4:37

each other, like, the black kids

4:37

would hang out with each other,

4:40

the, you know, white East Coast,

4:40

people that all went to the same

4:43

schools would hang out with each

4:43

other. And, of course, they were

4:45

you know, there was mixing and there were people that you know, floated between groups, but when

4:47

I noticed it was in my second

4:52

year of campus. I had two

4:52

roommates. One was a black woman

4:55

from Memphis, and another was a

4:55

white woman originally from out

4:59

upstate New York. And like I was

4:59

friends with both of them. And

5:02

so we kind of got together and decided we're going to live in a house together. And for the rest

5:04

of the year, people constantly

5:07

forgot that we were in the same

5:07

house. Every time. We'd already

5:10

known everybody else in the class for like, one year at that point. People always assumed

5:12

that I lived or, you know, was

5:16

part of like, some Indian house

5:16

somewhere. And more often than

5:20

not, also always assume that our

5:20

black roommate lived in this

5:24

house with like four other black

5:24

women. They just like, lumped

5:27

her in with that group. And so

5:27

every time I was like, Oh, yeah,

5:30

we'll come together, because we

5:30

live together. They were like,

5:33

"Oh, right. Oh, I thought she

5:33

lived in the other house. Oh, I

5:36

thought you lived here." And it

5:36

was one of those things where

5:38

like, it seems very innocuous,

5:38

but over and over again, it just

5:41

kind of reinforced this notion

5:41

that, oh, we're not supposed to,

5:44

according to whatever unwritten

5:44

rules exist, we're not supposed

5:47

to mingle, or like her place is

5:47

defined by everybody else

5:51

already. And that drove me up

5:51

the wall. And I think the more

5:55

like, I think I asked questions

5:55

of her, of other friends, just

5:59

other people about, you know,

5:59

why do people react this way?

6:02

Like, what what is that? I was

6:02

very naive about it, the more I

6:05

realized that, like the lived

6:05

experience of my black

6:08

classmates was completely

6:08

different, completely different

6:12

from mine. So it was weird, I

6:12

sort of came to this awareness

6:16

that a place on surface or most

6:16

of the time could be

6:20

progressive, you know,

6:20

appropriate, inclusive, and then

6:24

have these like pockets of

6:24

racism, that were almost more

6:27

insidious, because no one had an

6:27

issue with it. Like, I can feel

6:31

like the anger like coming up 10

6:31

years later.

6:33

It's like the housing

6:33

version of all black people look

6:37

alike, or all Indians look like.

6:37

To your point, people just

6:41

have... they deny the experience

6:41

of others if they haven't

6:44

experienced it themselves.

6:45

Yes. Like, I think empathy has limits. And

6:46

I may not be able to empathize

6:50

with someone else's experience.

6:50

But also, that shouldn't stop me

6:54

from acknowledging that

6:54

experience is real and valid.

6:57

Like, I think I had this notion

6:57

that I had to be able to walk in

7:01

that person's shoes, to then

7:01

engage and understand. But why

7:05

isn't it enough for someone to

7:05

tell me what happened, or what

7:08

their experience is like, and

7:08

for me to just believe them? Why

7:10

do I have to be able to

7:10

understand it? Or like, you

7:12

know, feel like, Oh, I am there

7:12

with you. Why can I just say,

7:16

okay, that happened and that's

7:16

real? It's important for us to

7:19

get away from this notion that

7:19

like, Oh, you have to be able

7:21

to, you know, put yourself in

7:21

somebody else's shoes to be an

7:24

ally, or to be a friend, you

7:24

don't. You should just be able

7:27

to believe people as well.

7:28

Isn't that the definition of sympathy?

7:31

Yeah, I guess,

7:32

I think the challenge

7:32

comes up when, in the act of

7:36

acknowledging other people's

7:36

experiences, it requires of them

7:40

to turn the mirror on

7:40

themselves. And I think that's

7:43

when it becomes uncomfortable,

7:43

and it's easier to ignore and

7:49

deny than to recognize it.

7:52

Yeah. I think that's really

7:52

well said. And it's important.

7:55

It's a really, really strong

7:55

point. Because it's, it's also

7:58

like, it's always easier to

7:58

point to other people in your,

8:01

in your demographic. It's, you

8:01

know, oh no, it's the other

8:03

Indian people that are that are

8:03

racist, you kno. Anti blackness

8:07

exists in community, but with

8:07

other Indians, I'm not part of

8:10

the problem. And that can't be

8:10

true. You know, other people

8:13

like me are like this, but I'm

8:13

not. I mean, everyone wants to

8:16

believe that they're not part of

8:16

the average. But yeah,

8:19

confronting our own part in that

8:19

is, I think, really important.

8:23

You know, for me, like coming to

8:23

the US, not knowing a lot about

8:27

American history, not knowing

8:27

and not understanding systemic

8:30

racism, it made it so that like,

8:30

when people don't talk about

8:35

systemic racism, it's like, oh,

8:35

this is just the way things are

8:37

like, it made me really

8:37

susceptible to believing that

8:40

this is how things are, like,

8:40

this is just normal. And like

8:45

that denial, and that

8:45

normalization is, is really,

8:48

really powerful. Like, you know,

8:48

the first election I voted in in

8:50

the US was President Obama's re

8:50

election. And so my memory of

8:54

that was like, Oh, yeah, you

8:54

know, like, what a progressive

8:57

country like, this is such a big

8:57

achievement. This is amazing.

8:59

And so when people said, yeah,

8:59

we live in a post-racial

9:02

society, I was like, yeah, must

9:02

be true. Which, now I'm like,

9:06

what, what, what? It's, it's

9:06

embarrassing to think about it,

9:09

but also, like, I can't, you know, I can't judge myself constantly,

9:11

becuase then I can't move forward. But like, the dominant

9:13

messages in the media, or

9:16

whatever it is, is like, yeah,

9:16

we're past all that. That's all

9:19

ancient history. And until,

9:19

until that gets questioned

9:23

loudly and widely and in every,

9:23

every forum, people will believe

9:28

it.

9:28

It's interesting to

9:28

hear you talk about it from a

9:32

foreign perspective of being

9:32

socialized to believe that this

9:36

is how things are, and there's

9:36

very little reason to question

9:39

it.

9:40

Yeah, like my questioning

9:40

was very focused on me. And, you

9:44

know, my race, my ethnicity

9:44

here, like, I bristled and I

9:48

still do. When people ask me,

9:48

oh, you you work at Microsoft.

9:53

Because I'm in Seattle, and whatever. I'm like, What??

9:56

Like, you know, that not all

9:56

Indians are engineers, right?

9:58

Like, you know that, right? You

9:58

know, Uber drivers who will very

10:02

sweetly, very sweetly say, oh,

10:02

but you don't sound Indian. I

10:07

really like your accent. And I'm

10:07

like, there are like 26 official

10:11

languages in India and then so

10:11

many more. And just because

10:14

like, like, no. And you know,

10:14

some of them are like, why

10:17

you're getting so angry. And I'm like, because this is ridiculous. So I have that

10:19

consciousness on my own behalf.

10:22

Right?

10:24

Well, are we getting

10:24

the point where we are so overly

10:28

sensitive about every little

10:28

thing that everyone said? Do we

10:31

need... Should we be aiming to

10:31

get to a point in our society

10:35

where nobody ever says anything

10:35

politically incorrect?

10:41

You know, I, I think, I

10:41

think actually, I think that...

10:45

I think we will never get to

10:45

that place. But I think that

10:49

aiming for a society where

10:49

everyone feels respected, is a

10:55

really, really wonderful goal to

10:55

have. I think there's a

10:59

difference between like,

10:59

political correctness, and I

11:02

think striving for shared equal

11:02

mutual respect. Like, is it okay

11:07

for a taxi driver, Uber driver

11:07

to make a joke like that? You

11:10

know, and I don't blame him for

11:10

doing it. But at the end of the

11:13

day, I'm counting on him as like

11:13

someone in my society to also

11:17

make good decisions for our

11:17

collective good. And so ishe. He

11:20

wants, you know, he needs his

11:20

fellow citizens to, to be

11:24

behind, like, what's important

11:24

for him. And if he doesn't

11:27

have... or if he or many other

11:27

people think it's okay to make

11:30

comments, you know, that put me

11:30

in a box. That's, that's not a

11:35

good thing for our society. So

11:35

it's not the objection to like,

11:41

political incorrectness. I think

11:41

it's more, Is it a symptom of

11:45

underlying attitudes? Like, what

11:45

is it signaling actually? Yeah,

11:51

I find that in my experience, I

11:51

think that people when I've

11:53

talked to them about, who are

11:53

most worried about, you know,

11:55

political correctness, or like,

11:55

Oh, why can't I make this joke,

11:59

or like, you know, why don't you

11:59

relax, it's just a joke? Those

12:02

people have not been the people

12:02

who are the target of the joke,

12:05

or the punch line. It's been

12:05

white male friends who are like,

12:09

wait, but why? Like, why can't

12:09

we just laugh about this? Or

12:11

white female friends who have been making jokes about colonialism - like white

12:13

husband and me. There was a

12:17

period of time where people were

12:17

making jokes about the Raj and

12:19

how, you know, oh, yeah, like

12:19

his people colonized Indonesia,

12:22

which they didn't, but he has a

12:22

Dutch last name, so you know, it

12:25

was convenient for the joke. And

12:25

Haha, now he's like, married

12:27

this Indian woman. And that shit

12:27

made me really mad.

12:31

What we need is the

12:31

perfect sentence that perfectly

12:34

sums up why it's an issue.

12:34

Because if you tackled that

12:38

every single time and try to get

12:38

people to understand why, in

12:43

that case, it's not funny. It's

12:43

not something we laugh about.

12:46

You can't go through your day,

12:46

explaining that to everybody and

12:50

get anything else done. So it's like...

12:53

Oh, actually, I think I

12:53

read this somewhere recently. I

12:57

think a person was like, she was

12:57

saying, I asked them to explain

13:00

why that's funny. She was like,

13:00

when people say things, you

13:04

know, that I don't find amusing

13:04

or offensive. I don't laugh,

13:07

because I think a lot of us also

13:07

our instinct is to laugh, right

13:09

to defuse the tension. She

13:09

doesn't laugh and then she says,

13:13

Why is that funny? And she said,

13:13

that makes people so

13:15

uncomfortable. Like immediately

13:15

it makes them accountable.

13:18

Right? It's like, well, can you

13:18

tell me why that's funny? So I

13:20

haven't used that yet, but I

13:20

might. Although I will say I

13:23

think once I started speaking up

13:23

in my friends circle, when

13:27

things made me uncomfortable, my

13:27

friends responded really well.

13:31

They're still funny, but they're

13:31

not funny at my expense. At

13:35

least not, sorry. Not at my

13:35

demographic, like not at the

13:38

expense of like, things I can't

13:38

control about myself. Like they

13:40

can still make fun of me for

13:40

being sloppy, or not being able

13:43

to cook or things like all of

13:43

that. Like, yeah, there's plenty

13:46

of material without having to

13:46

talk about, you know, my gender

13:50

or my racial makeup.

13:53

Make fun of me. Don't

13:53

make fun of everything I

13:57

represent.

13:57

Yes. Yeah.

14:00

So how do we get to

14:00

that post racial place?

14:03

Yeah. Make America post

14:03

racial again?

14:06

Make America post

14:06

racial again.

14:09

Yeah, I don't know if we...do you think

14:10

we can get to a place where

14:13

we're ever post racial?

14:15

Um, I don't know. I

14:15

don't know if I have that much

14:20

hope in mankind.

14:23

Yeah. What's been giving me

14:23

I think a lot of hope and like,

14:28

almost excitement for the future

14:28

is looking at how different

14:31

already Gen Z is in terms of

14:31

engagement. And not all of them

14:36

obviously, but they seem far

14:36

more willing to fight for

14:41

equality and for equal

14:41

treatment. My take on it is I

14:45

think with every successive

14:45

generation, we have a chance to

14:48

do better. You know, as like the

14:48

Black Lives Matter movement has

14:51

gotten more press and more

14:51

coverage globally. In India, the

14:55

Dalits who are, you know who in

14:55

the old times were called

14:58

untouchables. Like, within the

14:58

Caste system it was really...

15:01

they've still been... they're on

15:01

the receiving end of so much

15:04

violence in all its forms. And

15:04

it's been, again, normalized and

15:10

denied. Because Oh, we abolished

15:10

Caste in the 50s. That Caste

15:14

doesn't exist anymore. No, it

15:14

does. Just because you say that

15:16

it's not there, it doesn't mean

15:16

it's not there. Like everyone be

15:19

aves like it's a real thing. So

15:19

the Black Lives Matter mo

15:23

ement has raised co

15:23

sciousness around the Dalit mov

15:26

ment in India. That's ama

15:26

ing to see that the energy and

15:30

the force of activists can mag

15:30

ify like that globally, and at

15:35

pace that's even faster tha

15:35

I think it was before. Like tha

15:38

gives me hope. Yes, there wi

15:38

l always be things that you know

15:41

need to be fought or addresse

15:41

. There's always going to be an

15:44

ther dimension along which we

15:44

can be divided and split. B

15:46

t this shows that we can be uni

15:46

ed across these things that d

15:49

vide us.

15:55

Thanks for listening

15:55

to United States of Race. This

15:58

podcast was written and produced

15:58

by me, DB Crema. Thank you t

16:02

Aly Creative for designing our

16:02

artwork. And to Nick D and Nick

16:06

S for technical support. If yo

16:06

love great storytelling, pleas

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subscribe to United State

16:10

of Race on Spotify, Apple Podca

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ts, or wherever you get your

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odcasts. You can also show us so

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e love by rating and writi

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g a review on Apple podcasts or

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16:22

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16:26

e power of building conn

16:29

ction through sharing pers

16:29

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ord unitedstatesofrace. And as

16:39

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16:58

Until next time.