0:10

I think the hard part is

0:10

realizing that my kids are going

0:14

to be even more American than

0:14

me. Like when I was a kid, we

0:17

went to Iraq twice. And I have

0:17

these fond memories of these

0:21

people who didn't speak English

0:21

giving me more kisses that I

0:24

knew were possible, like, Okay,

0:24

this is what I am. And this is

0:27

the food that we eat at home.

0:27

And this is the music that we

0:29

listen to. And my kids are going

0:29

to be like, we went to Palm

0:31

Springs.

0:35

This is United States

0:35

of Race, personal stories of how

0:39

our earliest memories determine

0:39

a lifetime of relationships. I'm

0:44

your host, DB Crema. So when did you become aware of

0:52

race?

0:55

Well, I don't know. But

0:55

when I was in fourth grade, we

1:00

had to do the Illinois State

1:00

academic testing, you know, let

1:05

you do that, like, I don't know,

1:05

every other grade. And that was

1:08

the first time I had to put down

1:08

on a form like what race right

1:12

you. And I raised my hand. So I

1:12

went to, I grew up in a very,

1:17

what they would consider a

1:17

diverse town, outside of

1:20

Chicago. So it wasn't like

1:20

everyone was white, or something

1:24

like that. But it was very much

1:24

black and white. So it was like

1:27

40% Black, 40% White, and it's

1:27

like 10 to 20% of everything

1:33

else. And I remember raising my

1:33

hand and saying, I don't know

1:38

what to put, right. Like,

1:38

seriously, and my teacher looks

1:45

at me and he says, You're sure

1:45

not white. Like, that was

1:50

my...He's like, I don't know what you are either. But you're not white. Right? And who knows?

1:52

Was he racist? Or was he you

1:58

know, just an asshole? It sounds

1:58

like he was just an asshole.

2:01

From what I remember, he was

2:01

just an asshole. Because you

2:04

don't really say that to a

2:04

fourth grader or third grader.

2:09

And if he had some, you know,

2:09

self awareness, he just be like,

2:11

I don't know, this is

2:11

interesting question. Let's turn

2:14

this into a lesson and how we

2:14

can appreciate the fact that

2:17

there's more than just black and

2:17

white in the world. But not like

2:20

not, you're just not white dude.

2:20

Figure it out. Sucks to be you.

2:25

You're on your own.

2:26

Yeah. So I was like,

2:26

Well, I was like, I guess I'm

2:30

black. Right? So I was black to

2:30

the state of Illinois until

2:34

like, the next time we need to

2:34

take a test two years later. So

2:39

I remember the kid sitting next

2:39

to me was black. And I was like,

2:41

would you put and he's like, I

2:41

put black and he was clearly

2:44

black. You know? Like, there was

2:44

no like, Oh, you know, where the

2:48

other kids who don't literally

2:48

look like anyone put. He was

2:51

like, I put black and I was

2:51

like, Well, I'm not white. And

2:54

I'm not Pacific Islander. So I

2:54

was black. And I remember going

2:59

home and talking to my mom about

2:59

it. And I was like, Hey, Mom,

3:01

this happened. And she's like,

3:01

Ha, Ha ha ha ha. My mom has a

3:05

very strange relationship with

3:05

race. And so she's like, we're

3:08

white. And I was like, "Oh, no

3:08

one told me." And I'm like, My

3:12

teacher said that I'm not. And I

3:12

don't really feel like that's

3:15

accurate. I think that after

3:15

that point in time, and I didn't

3:20

put you know, I just put white

3:20

after that, as my mom was like,

3:24

yeah, we're white.

3:26

Talk to me about being

3:26

white. So why were you guys

3:28

white? Why weren't you

3:28

considered something else like

3:31

So I think that by law,

3:31

Arabs are still considered

3:34

Caucasian. So like on a census,

3:34

I'm still considered Caucasian.

3:39

Even though this was like the

3:39

first year that I could put

3:42

something separate, you can

3:42

write in, I actually got into a

3:46

big fight with my wife about

3:46

this, right? Because my wife

3:49

filled out the census without

3:49

talking to me, and I actually

3:51

was became very, like,

3:51

researching this. And this is

3:55

something that I had some

3:55

interest in is to say, this was

3:58

the first year that they had a

3:58

space to be like, well, if you

4:01

don't fit into any of these

4:01

other categories, tell us what

4:04

you are. And there was actually

4:04

a pretty reasonable size push in

4:08

some of the Arabic communities

4:08

to say no, we need to be counted

4:12

and put Arab or put you know,

4:12

Iraqi or put something in that

4:18

spot so that we can have an idea

4:18

of how many Arabs are in this

4:21

country. And we don't fit into

4:21

the the the Caucasian box. But

4:27

this is the first time and so

4:27

yeah, technically by law, I'm

4:30

Caucasian. Growing up that was

4:30

also it was literally like black

4:36

and white. And you I don't want

4:36

to say you chose sides, but you

4:39

like fit into sort of one

4:39

situation or the other, like my

4:43

brother's two, three years older

4:43

than me. And he totally was more

4:47

white culturally than I was,

4:47

like, from the music he listened

4:50

to to the girls that he dated to

4:50

everything, he liked white

4:55

stuff. He dated, exclusively

4:55

white women and I dated

4:59

exclusively, not white women. He

4:59

listened to The Smiths and The

5:04

Cure, and I listened to hip hop,

5:04

and I have no idea why, we're

5:08

three years apart. And then when

5:08

I went to college, I then

5:12

appreciated, I'm like, Oh, you

5:12

can like both? You don't have to

5:15

choose one. Because there's more

5:15

than just two. Right?

5:21

Turns out, you can like both flavors.

5:23

Exactly. Usually out

5:23

there. Like there's another

5:25

flavor out there you never even

5:25

heard of. And when I got to

5:31

college, is when I really met a

5:31

group of people who also didn't

5:35

fit in any categories. And that

5:35

was the first time where I was

5:38

like, oh, there are other people

5:38

who are in this group. And then

5:41

that sort of became my group was

5:41

the, like the other you fill in

5:45

the blank, right? So everyone

5:45

was kind of different. But we

5:49

all filled in the blank a little bit differently.

5:51

What did it feel like

5:51

when you say you weren't, you

5:53

weren't... it was made clear to

5:53

you that you weren't white and

5:56

you weren't treated as such?

5:56

Like, what was your experience?

5:59

I mean, it never

5:59

resonated with me that I was

6:01

white because I didn't feel

6:01

culturally or that I looked

6:05

white, or that I was treated

6:05

white. And I didn't even know

6:11

what that meant. But I just knew

6:11

that I was different. I was not

6:14

what the majority was. And, you

6:14

know, that whole idea of I don't

6:20

fit in was a pervasive part of

6:20

my childhood. You know, I knew

6:25

that I was different. I knew

6:25

that I when I went home, the

6:28

food was different. And the

6:28

smells were different. And, you

6:31

know, the way we treated our dog

6:31

was different. And there's a few

6:37

times I remember growing up,

6:37

were just the feeling of saying

6:40

that you're different, and that

6:40

you're not what we are, was

6:43

pointed out to me, I remember, I

6:43

remember being in grammar school

6:49

as well. And we had to do like a

6:49

family tree. And I did a family

6:53

tree, and we had to put together

6:53

a presentation. And the teacher

6:58

was like, well, you, you forgot

6:58

to put an oil rig on your

7:02

presentation. And I was like, I

7:02

don't think my family has

7:06

anything to do with oil. And

7:06

she's like, oh, but everyone

7:10

there has something to do with

7:10

oils, you should put an oil rig

7:12

on your presentation and drew...

7:12

like put an oil rig, like

7:16

prominently in the middle of my

7:16

presentation about being from

7:19

Iraq. And these teachers didn't

7:19

realize the power that they had

7:24

to categorize you when you were

7:24

in third grade. And that's

7:27

horrible. And like, yeah, you

7:27

think that fucking guy who told

7:31

me I don't know what the fuck

7:31

you are, but you're not white

7:34

was not biased about how he

7:34

treated me in class. You know,

7:38

there's no way. But at the same

7:38

time, I don't really want to

7:41

think about that and say, oh,

7:41

what could have happened? Or

7:44

what could I have been, if I was

7:44

white? Because I hate that. And

7:51

I don't want to think about it

7:51

like that. Like, if I was white,

7:55

could I, would I've been in the

7:55

AP classes? Would I have gone to

8:00

a better college? Would I have

8:00

gotten a better letter of

8:02

recommendation? Would a teacher

8:02

have taken more interest in me?

8:05

What werethe possibilities if I

8:05

had been treated equally? And I

8:10

don't want to think about that.

8:10

I don't want to think that I

8:12

didn't live up to any potential

8:12

that I had, or that these people

8:15

had that much control over me.

8:15

Like, yeah, that guy was a

8:18

teacher, I was an asshole. And

8:18

he probably had a negative

8:20

effect on my life. And there was

8:20

probably a lot of people like

8:22

that, on the path to get here.

8:22

But I did all right, you know,

8:26

doing okay.

8:29

Can't think of a more perfect way to put it.

8:31

That's kind of what it's

8:31

been with my kids because my

8:34

wife is half black, half white.

8:34

And my kids are therefore

8:39

quarter white quarter black and

8:39

half Arab. I think that when I

8:42

discuss with them race and such,

8:42

or not even that, I think when

8:45

the world interacts with them, I

8:45

think like the kids in their

8:48

school and the other parents, I

8:48

think they look at them not as

8:51

black at all. Like they don't

8:51

see that. You know, I don't

8:56

think... I'm not saying my kids

8:56

don't see that. I'm saying that

8:59

the people in the world around

8:59

them don't see them as being at

9:03

all black. I'm not sure why, I

9:03

just don't think that that's the

9:07

way that they're seen. They're

9:07

seen as brown. So probably like,

9:11

you know, me more so than my

9:11

wife who is you know, she's

9:16

probably looked at and seen and

9:16

people think she's black, except

9:20

for when she was with me, and

9:20

she's like, there's like no way

9:22

that you know, you could meet a

9:22

girl that good looking who had a

9:25

choice or something like that,

9:25

so...no, seriously. So they look

9:31

at my wife and they think she's

9:31

black. And she's got, you know,

9:34

a fro, and you know, dark skin.

9:34

And then they look at me and

9:40

they're like you're not black,

9:40

but we don't know what you are.

9:42

And then they look at my kids

9:42

and they're like, they're

9:45

probably more like his kids. So

9:45

I think that they haven't had it

9:49

thrust upon them in a way that

9:49

maybe other kids have. Because I

9:53

think that people they make that

9:53

split judgment of how you look.

9:57

People like to put that you're

9:57

black, you're white, you're

10:00

Hispanic. You know, like, what

10:00

box do you check? What box can I

10:04

put you into? My kids don't fit

10:04

in that, right? So...

10:10

I mean, so okay, so they're being looked at as people of color. So rather than

10:12

black and like what you mean by

10:15

brown.

10:16

Yeah. It's also strange.

10:16

I mean, so my wife is half

10:18

black, half white, but she was

10:18

raised by her mother who's

10:24

white. So culturally, she's

10:24

white. I mean, she's more white.

10:29

I'm, I'm more black than she is.

10:29

Not true, but you know what I

10:34

mean. Like, culturally, it's...

10:34

there's also not just the

10:39

visual, but the cultural aspect of it.

10:42

Right

10:43

You know, when I was

10:43

talking about how my mom has

10:45

such a weird relationship with

10:45

race, and it sort of relates to

10:50

how she dealt with race when we

10:50

were growing up, was that ...so

10:55

my parents are from Iraq,

10:55

originally. My dad's mom is

11:01

Persian, from Iran. And to some

11:01

degree, you know, she was darker

11:05

and, and my mom's family is

11:05

light. And they always said

11:09

they're Arab. Your dad's side of

11:09

the family's Persian. And it's

11:12

so weird for them to be like,

11:12

racist against Persians because

11:15

you can't tell a damn

11:15

difference, right? And then,

11:19

this is where it's where the

11:19

kicker is, so my sister did the

11:22

23andme. And guess who's 90%

11:22

Persian? Me and my sister, which

11:28

means my mom is a majority

11:28

Persian. So I said this to her.

11:33

I was like, does this make you

11:33

feel different? And she's like,

11:35

we're not Persian. I was like,

11:35

Yes, we are. We have a blood

11:39

test that says that our genes

11:39

are Persian. No, we're Arab.

11:43

We're Arab. You know, and she's

11:43

like, I sunburn. So I thought I

11:48

had this epiphany when I was

11:48

like, oh, genetic testing,

11:51

that's going to change how we

11:51

all view this, because you're

11:55

going to have a piece of paper

11:55

be like, Oh, you're a white

11:57

dude. Guess what? Someone down

11:57

the line slept with someone and

12:02

you got a whole shit ton of Arab

12:02

blood in you. And now you're

12:05

going to realize that your

12:05

concept of race is bullshit. And

12:10

then I saw what my mom's

12:10

reaction was? And I was like,

12:12

Oh, no, that's not gonna happen.

12:12

Like, that's not how people are

12:16

going to react, they're gonna be

12:16

like, nope, science is not

12:18

correct. I don't care.

12:20

But you know, what's funny, too, is listening to this, and I'm like, because it's

12:21

outside of our socialized norm.

12:26

It all sounds ridiculous. Like

12:26

what like, Why? Why is that even

12:29

an issue? And so we look at it

12:29

and from from the outside, we're

12:33

like, well, that's stupid when

12:33

we do the exact same fucking

12:35

thing here. To me, asnd I'm

12:35

guessing 90% of Americans

12:41

listening to this would think

12:41

but Persian, Arab, Iraqi, it's

12:45

all the same.

12:46

Yeah. Like I can't tell the difference.

12:48

Right. Right. So,

12:48

being Arab in the US is not

12:55

easy.

12:56

It's better than being

12:56

Arab in Iraq. I don't know.

13:01

That's debatable, I guess, right?

13:03

Post 9/11 and such,

13:03

what was that like?

13:08

9/11. I was a second year

13:08

medical student and we had our

13:13

tests at that point of time,

13:13

they were trying to prepare us

13:15

for our, our board exam. So we

13:15

took all of our tests all at

13:18

once. So we take nine hours of

13:18

exam. And so on September 11th,

13:24

we were taking an exam in the

13:24

basement of the hospital. I

13:28

remember one of the other students walking out and coming up to the proctor who was this

13:30

old dude who's like, you know,

13:32

these planes flew into this

13:32

building. He's like, yeah, yeah,

13:35

whatever, sit down and finish

13:35

your damn test, right? And he's

13:38

like, No, I can't do that. I'm

13:38

getting up and leaving. We're

13:41

all like looking around. What

13:41

the hell. And so we finished our

13:45

test. And everyone sort of

13:45

worked our way to the student

13:47

lounge afterwards. And there

13:47

was, like, 40 or 50 of us. And

13:51

we're all sitting there watching

13:51

everything happen. And I

13:53

remember distinctly students

13:53

being like, you know, the most

13:57

racist shit that you can think

13:57

of and hear coming from med

14:00

students' mouth. That was also

14:00

the place where there's people

14:04

who were driving around looking

14:04

for people who looked like me to

14:09

beat up and there was a few

14:09

Indian dudes, Sikh guys who got

14:13

beaten up, right. And everyone

14:13

was always like, well, they

14:18

don't even got the right people.

14:18

And I was like, so if they got

14:21

me instead, would it be okay,

14:21

because I'm the one that they're

14:23

looking for. You're just not

14:23

finding the right person to beat

14:26

up. But the hardest thing for me

14:26

is that I think that after

14:33

September 11th, there was sort

14:33

of this whole entire, we're all

14:37

American ganging up against the

14:37

other, and that included black

14:41

people. And that hurt. Like that

14:41

hurt more than white people

14:47

saying it. Because they were

14:47

always treated like shit. And I

14:51

would always commiserate with

14:51

that and be like, yeah, we're

14:54

both treated like shit. We're

14:54

gonna get through it. It's gonna

14:56

be alright. But it did feel bad

14:56

when black people would, would

15:01

be, we're no longer the lowest.

15:01

Because I was like, You know

15:05

what, it hurts when someone says

15:05

something bad about you, but it

15:08

hurts when someone who knows

15:08

what it feels like says that

15:13

about you. I think that growing

15:13

up Iraqi really made it

15:21

difficult to feel home in this

15:21

country. Like I don't really

15:23

feel like that's... I don't have

15:23

patriotism towards this country.

15:27

But it's hard. I mean, this

15:27

country is responsible for

15:31

destroying the country my

15:31

parents are from, you know. Not

15:34

completely and totally by

15:34

itself, you know, and that's why

15:37

I say, Oh, it's better to be an

15:37

Arab here than it is to be in

15:39

Iraq. Because Yeah, my my family

15:39

who lives in Iraq, it's

15:42

horrible. I mean, there's been

15:42

people kidnapped, there's been

15:46

people tortured... cousins, you

15:46

know. And it's hard to be rah

15:52

rah for the American military

15:52

and thank people for their

15:55

service when they went and

15:55

helped destroy the place where

15:58

my family's from. And it's also

15:58

hard because there is no home

16:02

anymore. And that's what's

16:02

happening, I think, to my family

16:05

now. It's like, they're refugees

16:05

all over the world. There's no

16:09

sense of who you're related to

16:09

who you're not related to. And

16:14

it, it really strips you of your

16:14

identity. And when it happens

16:19

over generations, I think that

16:19

you're then left without an

16:21

identity, and you try to form it

16:21

again. I'm trying to do that

16:25

with my own kids like to have

16:25

them not lose that. But I don't

16:28

know how successful I can be.

16:28

Because where do you go to

16:32

visit? Who do you go to see?

16:32

Whose grandparents grave do you

16:36

go see when there is not? You

16:36

know. But it's also hard to feel

16:43

American per se. But then I go

16:43

there. And guess what, I'm

16:47

fucking American. I'm serious.

16:47

Like, culturally, culturally.

16:58

Is there ever... I

16:58

don't know if I have a question.

17:02

Do you ever have a space where

17:02

you feel like you fit in? Or are

17:07

you feel accepted?

17:10

Well, there's a few things that I wanted to sort of mention. Most of them have to do

17:11

with like being a doctor.

17:18

Because there's been multiple

17:18

times where I've had patients be

17:21

like, I don't want you to be my

17:21

doctor just based off of my

17:25

name, or what I look like. I've

17:25

had patients with like blatant,

17:31

you know, white supremacist

17:31

tattoos all over them, come into

17:35

the emergency room and take care

17:35

of them. And I think the hardest

17:39

part is I've had like other

17:39

doctors who said, like, off the

17:44

wall, like really racist shit.

17:44

I've had other doctors who

17:47

refuse to shake my hand. But

17:47

I've always been proud of,

17:52

especially with patients of

17:52

being like, I'm here to treat

17:55

everyone. Like I remember, one

17:55

guy coming in. And, you know, I

18:01

had to cut right through his

18:01

swastika in order to do a

18:03

surgery, you know, and I was

18:03

like, I'm not going to think

18:07

about this person as being any

18:07

different. And I've always taken

18:11

some pride in thinking that it

18:11

doesn't matter how other people

18:16

treat you, you got to treat

18:16

everyone the same. And I want to

18:20

be known as a doctor who it

18:20

doesn't matter because there's

18:23

plenty of people out there who

18:23

probably do not like me based on

18:27

what I am. But I don't want that

18:27

to interfere how I interact with

18:32

them as taking care of them and,

18:32

and try to see the humanity and

18:35

everyone. And that's been

18:35

helpful in trying to deal with

18:39

race as I get older is to say,

18:39

people get to be in desperate

18:44

positions. And I think my role

18:44

in this world is to help people

18:49

and to try to do that, to the

18:49

best of my ability no matter how

18:54

they would treat me if the roles

18:54

were reversed and being okay

18:59

with that, and actually being proud of that.

19:02

Thanks for listening

19:02

to United States of Race. This

19:06

podcast was written and produced

19:06

by me, DB Crema. Thank you to

19:10

Aly Creative for designing our

19:10

artwork. And to Nick D and Nick

19:14

S, for technical support. If you

19:14

love great storytelling, please

19:18

subscribe to United States of

19:18

Race on Spotify, Apple podcasts,

19:22

or wherever you get your

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podcasts. You can also show us

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share this podcast with your

19:33

friends and anyone who believes

19:33

in the power of building

19:36

connection through sharing

19:36

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19:40

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19:40

unitedstatesofrace. And as

19:46

always, if you Yes, you have a

19:46

compelling story to share, and

19:52

would like to be featured in an

19:52

upcoming episode. Send us a

19:55

message at

19:55

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20:05

Until next time